1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and former Congressman George Santos has been 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: sentenced to eighty seven months in prison. We have such 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: a great show for you today. Know your enemy is 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: Sam Adler. Bell stops by to talk about the arrest 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: of the Wisconsin judge and all the authoritarian fuckery. Then 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: we'll talk to the Shadow Docket author Stephen Vladdock about 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: whether or not the Trump administration can do that legally. 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Spoiler they cannot, Samali. 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: I think we have seen a new aggression in Trump's 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: authoritarian rule. Cash Pattel announced that they're going to bring 13 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: a judge up on obstruction charges, and Pam Bondi has 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: doubled down. 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 3: Let's hear what she has to say. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 4: To our judiciary is beyond me. 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,919 Speaker 5: So when the American public hears this and they think 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 5: these were once substanding people in their communities and their 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 5: professions and they put it all on the line for this, 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 5: Have you dug into their motive, like what inspired them 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 5: to carry out these acts? 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: In harbor criminals? They're deranged. 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 4: It's all I can think of I cannot believe. I 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 4: think some of these judges think they are beyond and 25 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 4: above the law, and they are not. And we're sending 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 4: a very strong message today. If you are harboring a fugitive, 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 4: we don't care who you are. If you are helping 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 4: hide one, if you are giving a TDA member guns, 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 4: anyone who is illegally in this country, we will come 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 4: after you and we will prosecute you. 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: You know, the false equivalency here is staggering. If you're 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: giving somebody guns or trying to keep them from being 33 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: arrested by ICE goons who are not wearing police costs. Right, 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: Like we've seen these videos of these ICE members in 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: playing clothes. They arrested a student in a hedge job 36 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: because she'd written an op ed. You'll remember that that 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: happened in Boston. So look, man, First of all, being 38 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: in this country illegally was not a crime. It was 39 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: not a criminalized crime until Donald Trump made it so 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: right before that, it was a civil crime. That's number one. 41 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: Number two, ICE was not supposed to go to courthouses. 42 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: That's a new Trump thing. I mean, this is the 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: thing about this administration. They're changing laws really fast and 44 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: saying that it's Democrats who are doing something wrong. But 45 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: all of these are new laws, right, like that ice 46 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: can go to schools, that ice can go to courthouses, 47 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: that ice can go to hospitals. And then they're losing 48 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: in the courts. So you'll remember that this Supreme Court, 49 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: which is the most conservative court ever, the one that 50 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: overturned Roe v. Wade, a nineteen seventy three statute. This 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled nine zero that even if you're not 52 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: a citizen, you still have the right to do process. 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: Think about that for a minute. Okay, Trump administration had 54 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: said migrants, illegal immigrants do not have the right to 55 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: do process. Well, guess what the fucking Supreme Court said 56 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: they do. So let me tell you something. Pambondi may 57 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: be very pretty, but she is wrong, and she's wrong. 58 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: These are not people doing criminal activities. These are people 59 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: listening to their consciences. And here is a moment in 60 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: American life where we all know that what the Trump 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: administration is doing is wrong and often illegal. And you'll remember, 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court said that Donald Trump needed to bring 63 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: back Garcia, right, and he has not brought back Garcia. 64 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: He's in Seacott in El Salvador, and had he not 65 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: been sent there, none of this would have happened. So 66 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: do not comply. Peacefully pushback. The lesson from Harvard can 67 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: be a lesson to all of us, which is none 68 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: of this is legal, none of this is okay. You 69 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: need to stand up, just like this judge did. The 70 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: chances that this judge ends up in jail are zero 71 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: because this is crazy, because this administration is acting in 72 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: a way that is illegal and there should be no 73 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: question about it. And she can say whatever she wants 74 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: on Fox News, but we all know the truth. 75 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: Yes, And speaking of the truth, Molly. 76 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: Many people are saying that mister Trump in his one 77 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: hundred Days interview with Time Magazine was not sounding like 78 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: his mental faculties are so good. They did not sound 79 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: like they're the greatest. They did not sound like they're 80 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: the greatest ever. They did not sound like they're doing great. 81 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: Everybody's saying this. 82 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: It's pretty funny, though. I Mean, the one thing I 83 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: will say is it's amazing. So when you listen to 84 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: Trump's incredible. Actually, I was on the train going to 85 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: the District of Columbia today and I listened to the 86 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: Time magazine they publish the entire transcript, And I implore 87 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: you listen to a Trump transcript, because you forget when 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 1: when journalists right about Trump, they never make him sound 89 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: quite as bat shit as he really does in real life. 90 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: And when you put his ramblings together, it is just 91 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: incredible stuff. So do yourself a favor. Take a few 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: minutes to listen to that Time magazine transcript of Donald 93 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: Trump saying things like, I mean, basically, the man thinks 94 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: Jerome Pal is responsible for all his problems. And let 95 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: me tell you a secret, Jerome Pal is very much 96 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: non responsible for all of Donald Trump's problems. 97 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's his own bad instincts. Speaking 98 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: of his own bad instincts. When asked about a millionaire 99 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: tax hike, Trump said, I love the concept, but it 100 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: may not be acceptable to the public. 101 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: Get the public. That public is not your problem, honey. 102 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: Your problem is your donors and yourself should be a 103 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: millionaire tax apps fucking looney. But is Donald Trump going 104 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: to do it? No fucking why. I mean, the man 105 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: was put in the job to extend the tax cut. 106 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: You know, there's one smart person in this entire administration, 107 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: and his name is Steve Bannon and Steve Bannon knows 108 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: that if you passed a millionaire's tax, it would be 109 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: incredibly good for this administration because then Democrats couldn't push 110 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: back on a lot of stuff. But you know what's 111 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: going to happen, not that. 112 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: I got to disagree with you. 113 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 2: I think he's going to adopt big structural bailly from 114 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Ward, and he's going to take the two petties 115 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: and he's going to text the millionaires just like you 116 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: said it. 117 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: Yes, he's the millionaires and the billionaires. 118 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 119 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: You know who he looks to for policy proposals, Elizabeth Warren. 120 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: He loves Elizabeth Warren. Yeah, No, that is not happening. 121 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: We would be remiss, though, to say that nearly every 122 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: poll on this subject shows that has overwhelming support by 123 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: large margins. 124 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: We very rarely see. 125 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: No, this is absolutely true. But there is absolutely no way. 126 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: There's zero chance that Donald Trump enacts progressive taxation. Zero chance. 127 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: And by the way, this is like one of these 128 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: things where even reporting on it is kind of malpracticed 129 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,679 Speaker 1: because the whole ethos of the Republican Party is letting 130 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: their friends get away with stuff. So whatever, sure, okay, 131 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: it's not happening. 132 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: Crony capitalism is the brand, yeah, Cronyism and stupidity is 133 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: the brand. 134 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 135 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: So the DNC, who we let's be honest, where you 136 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: worry about which direction they're heading in, have given a 137 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: pretty good indicator to us that they're maybe getting a 138 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: clue since they are now embracing formerd DNC chair Howard 139 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: Dean's fifty state strategy and they say they're going to 140 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: organize everywhere. 141 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: Don't they always embrace the fifty state strategy. 142 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: Hasn't that been Robert Manuel said absolutely not. Fuck that, 143 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: under no circumstance. That was the Howard Dean ram Emanuel War. 144 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: Okay, I mean I don't know. I mean yes, listen, 145 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: I love Howard Dean. He's a frequent guest of this podcast. 146 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: Do I think that they should do it? Of course 147 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: they should do a fucking but Trump's polling is now 148 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: almost lower than it was in his first administration when 149 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: we had COVID and none of us could leave the house. Okay, 150 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: he is crashing and burning, and Democrats, it would be 151 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: malpracticed not to run someone in every fucking seat. That's Oklahoma, 152 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: that's Ohio, that's all of those red state seats because 153 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: the truth is Trump is not a good candidate. He's 154 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: running a wildly unpopular agenda. I think it's very likely 155 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: we're going to see why we have a government regulation 156 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: to avoid the kind of catastrophes that ineverently are going 157 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: to happen when you don't have government regulation. 158 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 3: Sounds right to me. 159 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: Sam Adler bel is the co host of the famous 160 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: Know You're Enemy podcast. Welcome to Fast Politics, Sam. 161 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 6: Hi, great to be here, Great to meet you. 162 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great to meet you. I think of you 163 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: as like just a very smart person who is good 164 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: at talking. 165 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: Oh that's good. 166 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 6: I hope I live up to your expectations. You set 167 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 6: the bar high for your listeners. 168 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: I think we have to talk about this. So they 169 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: arrested a judge in Wisconsin. She's a county judge elected partisan. 170 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: But here's the real I feel like this concerning truth. 171 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: She's partisan in that she believes that people should rule 172 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: of lights right. She believes in the rule, but she 173 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: also believes like people should have rights even if they 174 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: are not in this country legally, which is also something 175 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: that our very conservative Supreme Court believes. So make it 176 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: make sense. 177 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 6: Yeah, that is just any abstract something that's very concerning 178 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 6: about this political moment that you can that we all 179 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 6: would have to agree. Yeah, well, she's a partisan, But 180 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 6: what that means nowadays is that one party cares at 181 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 6: all about the rules, norms, laws, constitutional legality, and one 182 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 6: of them does not. And so what does nonpartisan mean anymore? 183 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 6: I find it pretty disturbing. I don't know the details 184 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 6: of this case. What were the circumstances of her arrest? 185 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 6: I mean, I read the headlines. 186 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: So the Washington Post has a story. Again, this is 187 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: like one of these things where it's a new story, 188 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: it's just reported on so there's more facts coming up. 189 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: But the Washington Post had a story on it. She 190 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: was in trouble because she had an illegal immigrant in 191 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: her courtroom for a battery charge, which is not related 192 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: to his This is like, again, these are the results 193 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: of criminalizing what has not been until the Trump administration 194 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: a criminal activity, which is being in this country legally, right. 195 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: That was not a criminal activity until trump Ism criminalized it. 196 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: It was not a criminal activity, and now it is. 197 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: So this judge who let this man go out a 198 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: different door because Ice was waiting outside of the courtroom 199 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: to get him again, something that is a new Trump phenomenon, 200 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: having ice allowed in federal or state court hases, and 201 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: he was chased down by ice that arrested. These aren't 202 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: these same ICE agents who we've seen arresting people, you know, 203 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: wearing plain clothes covering their faces. There may be some connection. 204 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: Some of them are connected to local militias, right, we 205 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: saw that in reporting in the Washington Post. She has 206 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: been arrested now. So the question is all of these 207 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: are new circumstances brought to bear because of trump Ism, 208 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: because Trump has changed the designation of certain crimes. But 209 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: the question is like does this mean and again, this 210 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: is like yet another moment of like are we on 211 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: a constitutional grisis? Ice is certainly acting in a way 212 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: they did not act with any other president ever. 213 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, And the kinds of situations where you don't know 214 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 6: how dire or how far along the path to full 215 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 6: authoritarianism we are produces these kinds of moments where someone 216 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 6: like this judge or someone else in a position of 217 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 6: momentary authority over somebody else's life, has to make this 218 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 6: decision like, well do I trust this you know, like 219 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 6: pseudo gestapo to treat this person according to the law 220 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 6: or according to their human rights. And I think increasingly 221 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 6: we're seeing situations where, you know, in an encouraging way, 222 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 6: people make a decision that's like, no, this is an 223 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 6: extreme circumstance, and it demands a kind of moral courage 224 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 6: that would seem to be norm breaking in another circumstance. 225 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 6: I'm not saying that that's necessarily true about this judge. 226 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 6: I don't know the details, but what it reminds me 227 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 6: of is just in the first Trump administration, there were 228 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 6: also circumstances where people, you know, were kind of they 229 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 6: felt the need to do something extreme to protect against 230 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 6: an extreme behavior by the administration. But then there was 231 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 6: this very strong impulse that, well, if we break norms 232 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 6: in reaction to their norm breaking, are we just setting 233 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,359 Speaker 6: up this kind of inevitable you know, domino chain decline 234 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 6: of consecutive norm breaking. I feel like, and I never 235 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 6: really got there in the first administration. I'm here now. 236 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 6: I'm there now that we really kind of are out 237 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 6: in the breach. We're in a very, very very dire 238 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 6: situation where the kinds of choices people have to make 239 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 6: about what's normal and not normal to do. I think 240 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 6: those things are changing. You see it with the universities, 241 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 6: for example, who are first kind of like, all right, 242 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 6: you know, come on campus. Sure, uh, you know, detain 243 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 6: these students. Sure we'll make a deal with you or whatever. 244 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 6: But then it becomes clear that no, this isn't this 245 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 6: isn't a normal administration. It isn't just new people in 246 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 6: charge with different values. It's getting very very dire and 247 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 6: very very bleak. And you know, it used to be 248 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 6: that when we talked this way in the first administration, 249 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 6: and I did, sometimes we were accused of having trumped 250 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 6: arrangement syndrome or having some kind of secret, unstated wish, 251 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 6: a wish for there to be a real authoritarian situation. 252 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 6: But actually this is just kind of a normal, very 253 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 6: bad Republican administration. It's not so different. But I just 254 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 6: don't think that story stands up anymore, because it seems 255 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 6: very clear that they are willing to go all the 256 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 6: way in every single direction and on every single issue, 257 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 6: all at once. That just changes the situation. 258 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: As far as I'm concerned. 259 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: I vacillate between being like, these guys are so stupid. 260 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: It's great. Here they are arresting a judge in Wisconsin, right, Wisconsin, 261 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: where they just love lost a judicial election that Elon 262 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: mush put in thirty million dollars. Okay, So like, obviously 263 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Wisconsin is going to be a place, it's a purple 264 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: state where this kind of thing is going to stand 265 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: out in a way that it wouldn't in say, are Medillo, Texas, 266 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: Like you could arrest whoever you want in Texas's first district. 267 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: I mean I heard ones from a member of Congress 268 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: who was running for office there that they didn't open 269 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: the polls on time and that he had seen Proud 270 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,359 Speaker 1: Boys around the area or some kind of neo militia. 271 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: Like it's a huge country. There is a lot of 272 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: room for this federal government to do in crazy stuff. 273 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: But when you do it in Wisconsin to a partisan 274 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: Democrat who has been elected, and I mean, I just 275 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: think they constantly do things which are like if you 276 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,239 Speaker 1: wanted to enact authoritarianism the way they have in Hungary, 277 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: there is a playbook for that, and it's slow. 278 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 6: No, I think that's right. I mean it's always been 279 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 6: weird with Trump to feel and with Trump World and 280 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 6: the Mega movement to feel like our greatest protection against 281 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 6: their you know, most extreme designs is their incompetence and 282 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 6: their recklessness. 283 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 3: But that may be the case. 284 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 6: I mean, that's clearly the case right now with the 285 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 6: trade war, which is just not going to be popular, 286 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 6: and it is definitely they're definitely shooting themselves in the foot. 287 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 6: It's definitely the reason that his numbers are going down. 288 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 6: I just think it's obvious, and you just have to 289 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 6: you know, it's just crazy to be in a situation 290 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 6: where we're like, oh, thank goodness, these people are idiots, 291 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 6: because obviously there are situations where their recklessness is totally 292 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 6: consonant with their dangerousness. But I agree, I agree with 293 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 6: you about that. I take your point very much about 294 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 6: if they were wanted to do this right, you know, 295 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 6: which to say, to do it successfully and strategically. You know, 296 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 6: if they wanted to really fundamentally change this country without 297 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 6: igniting some kind of you know, resistance movement and resistance 298 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 6: from the institutions of this country, you know, they would 299 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 6: have started slow, and they would have built on the 300 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 6: license and the kind of sense of you know, that 301 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 6: period of time right after he was elected, when Democrats 302 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 6: were like, ah, well, I guess this is just a 303 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 6: conservative country. We're just going to have to go along 304 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 6: with it, you know, people saying, let's make deals where 305 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 6: we can work with these people, let's face the facts, 306 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 6: you know, taking that moment of kind of legitimacy and 307 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 6: building on it by doing things that were really popular 308 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 6: for a while and kind of magnanimous even, and that 309 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 6: then you can gradually turn the screws on the authoritarian agenda. 310 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 6: But they didn't do it that way. They went with 311 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 6: this other thing. And it's just a weird situation to 312 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 6: be in because I'm simultaneously relieved that they're doing it 313 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 6: so recklessly and also made absolutely crazy by the kind 314 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 6: of ferocity of it and the feeling that you just 315 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 6: never know what they're going to do. Oh, the FBI 316 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 6: director is going to get on Twitter and said we 317 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 6: arrested a judge, or like, are you so happy? Aren't 318 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 6: you so thrilled? 319 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: Ohn? 320 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 5: And then he deletes it. 321 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 6: I know my sense was that he deleted it because 322 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 6: he said in the post we believe that she did this, 323 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 6: or that it's like, Okay, you arrested at judge because 324 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 6: you heard something that's a pretty extreme thing to do. 325 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 6: But yeah, I'm with you. There's just it's just it's 326 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 6: a whiplash though, to feel like relieved that they're more 327 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 6: reckless and stupid than you could possibly have imagined. 328 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: Yes, I agree it's a whiplash, but it's also I 329 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: want to get back to the tariffs, because the tariffs 330 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: are the single thing Like ten Griffin, Okay, major Republican donor, 331 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: biggest donor of the cycle, did not donate to Trump, 332 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: but donated to every other Republican you've ever thought of, 333 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: or dreamed of or knew of. It was like Donald 334 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: Trump is ru I mean, I want to find the 335 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: Ken Griffin quote because I feel like it's one of 336 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: these things where it's like, now, he didn't really say that, 337 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: but he really did say that in fact, and even 338 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: like the cover of the Economist, right, this is the Economist, Okay, 339 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: the woke Economist. This is like not the nation says 340 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: only one three hundred and sixty one days to go, 341 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: and then it has a picture of like a bald 342 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: eagle that looks like it's been through what we've all 343 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: been through in the last almost one hundred days. 344 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. I mean again, there's another 345 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 6: irony of feeling like the saviors of our republic are 346 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 6: going to have to be like bond traders and Wall Street, 347 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 6: you know. As a socialist myself, I'm kind of like, 348 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 6: oh god, yes, okay, they're coming to our rescue, the 349 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 6: people who just move money around and make money. But 350 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 6: it's true that they really just they got out over 351 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 6: their skis. 352 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this to you because I I 353 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: feel like I'm sorry to do this. I know you're 354 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: a socialist. One of my kids is a Marxist. My 355 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: husband's like a blue Anon capitalist, so he's like, we're 356 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: going to fix Americay. 357 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 6: True, Hey, it takes all types, you know, right. 358 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: We have it all. And then I have a never 359 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: Trump Republican. I have one good kid. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. 360 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: I have lots of good kids. The United States was 361 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: more than just a nation. It's a brand. Okay, I'm 362 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: sure you love this. It's a universal brand, whether it's 363 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: our contraur or financial strength or military strength. It was 364 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: like an aspiration post of the world. We're eroding that 365 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: brand right now, Okay. Like, I mean, I'm sorry, but 366 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: if you're a Republican donor of saying that, like stick deal. 367 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it makes me wonder about and this 368 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 6: is we can only speculate about, but like, what are 369 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 6: the circumstances that have made them so hubristic? Is it 370 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 6: just that the goal of surrounding him with only yes 371 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 6: men and women and the goal of you know, retribution 372 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 6: being the kind of like you know, the reason you 373 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 6: know for his presidency. Is it just that there's nobody going, hey, 374 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 6: wait a mang ad minute, that the bond markets are 375 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 6: going to freak out if we do this now, like 376 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 6: Ken Griffin, people don't always answer his calls or like, 377 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 6: what is it? What is it that creates this license 378 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 6: in their minds that makes them think that they can 379 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 6: get away with it? 380 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: You know what Trump did was he scared these people, 381 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: and they were scared of him. I mean that's like 382 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: like Lisa Murkowski. They don't want the mean tweets. They 383 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: don't want to have to pay for security, they don't 384 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: want Maga one two three coming outside their house with 385 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: a gun. Like actually think about this a lot, and you, 386 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: as a student of history, I actually wanted to talk 387 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: to you about this. Which is so My grandfather was 388 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: jailed by the House in an American activity, Howard Fast 389 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: and he was a communist. Refused to name names not 390 00:21:54,040 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: a particularly brave guy, right, not, but did the thing 391 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: in that moment. I believe that part of how we 392 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: got here is that, like we are just in modern life, 393 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: we are not used to bravery of any sort. 394 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, what. 395 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: Do you think about that? Because if you look at 396 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: like this sort of the last. 397 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 6: Fifty years, Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to 398 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 6: go to tackle this, but like I generally think that, yeah, 399 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 6: the kind of resources that we have as a political 400 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 6: and moral culture for rewarding true bravery, moral courage, selflessness 401 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 6: are just depleted, like profoundly. And I think there's a 402 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 6: million reasons you could point to for that. I mean, 403 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 6: I think like kind of the neoliberal turn and the 404 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 6: kind of the fact that people are so much more 405 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 6: isolated from each other, and the kind of atomization that 406 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 6: comes with privatization. And yeah, I think that sound like 407 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 6: a fogy here, but like you know, kids, heroes are influencers. 408 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 6: The kind of like models for kind of greatness are 409 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 6: all celebrity and fame and kind of getting your own 410 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 6: I mean, the lessons of the manisphere or whatever are 411 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 6: just like get up, get the paper, like get it 412 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 6: for yourself, you know, and it takes actually effort as 413 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 6: a political community to produce you know, this other idea 414 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 6: of what success is because you know, naming names, that's 415 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 6: saving your own hide. And there's like a lot of 416 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 6: kind of like sort of what would seem like common 417 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 6: sensical norms in this country about like you're a sucker. 418 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 6: If you don't save your own hide when you can, 419 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,719 Speaker 6: you're a sucker. And so yeah, I think, but you know, 420 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 6: people rise to the occasion. I think there's also just 421 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 6: sort of a suspicion of kind of self aggrandizing political 422 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 6: heroism because that stuff is also kind of infused with 423 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 6: this suspicion about or are you just doing this for 424 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 6: the fame? Are you just doing this for a popularity contest. 425 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 6: I mean, it's one of those things that I always 426 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 6: think about about the right is that whenever whenever somebody 427 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 6: in a position of power blows the whistle or something, 428 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 6: the right will just always say, oh, they did this 429 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 6: because they're a Democrat, they did this because they're getting paid, 430 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 6: they paid protesters. I think that there's an enormous number 431 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 6: of people on the right that just don't believe that 432 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 6: anybody just goes and protests because it's inconceivable to them 433 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 6: that someone would take the time to do that and 434 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 6: have some kind of like actual genuine concern that is 435 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 6: not reducible to self interest. I think it's a problem 436 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 6: across our culture. I think the right has really a 437 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 6: desiccated sense of what human generosity can be and do. 438 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: But it is interesting if you think about it, Right, 439 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: like this idea of paid protesters. They stormed the Capitol, 440 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: so they obviously feel strongly about some stuff, right, I 441 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: mean a lot of those people went to jail. No, 442 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: it's true, but I agree. 443 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: It's a solypsism. 444 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 6: It's like, well, people on our side have genuine beliefs, 445 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 6: but right, how how could the others? 446 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: I also think that we find ourselves in a moment 447 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: here where there is such a cynicism from the right 448 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: and also I think from the left. That's what it 449 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: feels like you're talking about, is like, none of this 450 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: is real. Right, they're paid protesters, And I mean that 451 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: goes the whole ethos of Elon Musk, right, that we're 452 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: all non playing characters. And that is something that a 453 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: lot of very wealthy people believe or know enough to 454 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: not say they believe, but do secretly believe because life 455 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: has worked out so well for them that they are 456 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: the only playing characters and that everything else is a 457 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: simulation to lessen or increase their own experience. 458 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 459 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 6: I mean that's another contributing tributary to this crisis of 460 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 6: moral courage is also that there's an enormous number of 461 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 6: people and there are cultures in this country. I mean, 462 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 6: I think this look on Valley culture is particularly bad 463 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 6: in this regard, which encourage you to think of other 464 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 6: people as not as real as you. I don't know 465 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 6: when we when we were we did several episodes on 466 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 6: Musk and that kind of like I sort of steeped 467 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 6: in his whole gestalt and moral universe and it was 468 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 6: really disgusting. And I also just encountered a lot more 469 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 6: of the kind of common sense ideas about what matters 470 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 6: in the world and how the world works from the 471 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 6: Silicon Valley kind of you know, insular world, and there 472 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 6: was so much of that NPC stuff and it's like 473 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 6: it's like it's like I just remember this tweet that 474 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 6: I saw that was just one of many like this, 475 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 6: but there was just from some kind of tech world 476 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 6: influencer who was saying, how sorry, how sad she was 477 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 6: for most people in the country who will never like 478 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 6: do anything heroic. 479 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, well they may. They may have to because of 480 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: this administration. 481 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 6: They very well may, and they do every day. I mean, 482 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 6: I can get very maudlin about this, but I have 483 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 6: a great belief in the everyday heroism of regular people, 484 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 6: and actually quite little confidence in the capacity for heroism 485 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 6: of the of the very wealthy and privileged. 486 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: I agree, And we are out of time. I hope 487 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: you will come back. Yeah, it's fast. It's not one 488 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: of these like fancy dead. 489 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 6: Podcast goes on and on. 490 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: No, I know, I lit, We're just twenty minutes. Baby, 491 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: We're in the corporate world, so I know. But definitely 492 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: come back. Stephen Gladick is a CNN contributor and the 493 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: author of the shadow doc Welcome to Fast Politics. 494 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 7: Steven, thanks for having me, Molly. 495 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: Okay, So Supreme Court has become I don't know that 496 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: Roberts wants it to be this way, but they have 497 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: all of a sudden become sort of the center of 498 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: the action. And I think they probably would prefer not 499 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 1: to be with the Republican president, especially one like Trump, 500 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: but they are it. So talk us through the sort 501 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: of how the deportations got to the Supreme Court and 502 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: everything else. 503 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 7: So there are really two different lines of cases that 504 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 7: sound alike and that have some overlap, but are really 505 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 7: raising different sets of questions. It might be helpful, Malli, 506 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 7: for these purposes to separate out what we might call 507 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 7: just generally the Alien Enemy Act cases and for those 508 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 7: who know the case name, so that includes JGG and 509 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 7: AARP and a few other acronyms on one hand, and 510 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 7: then Abrago Garcia and Abrago Garcia is the Marilyn man 511 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 7: who was wrongfully removed to El Salvador, right even though 512 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 7: he had something called withholding of removal which specifically barred 513 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 7: the government removing him. A Brago Garcia Mali was not 514 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 7: removed under the Alien Enemy Act. He just happens to be, 515 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 7: you know, at least or he was being held in 516 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 7: the same horrible mega jail in El Salvador as the 517 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 7: folks who were removed under the Alien exactly. So you 518 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 7: have these two different sets of cases, and the Supreme 519 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 7: Court has already issued I guess it's three rulings now 520 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 7: in those two sets of cases, and so let me 521 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 7: sort of try to break them out briefly, separately. 522 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: Before you just break this out. How much do you 523 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: think Judge Roberts wants not to have to do this? 524 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 7: Well, I think he desperately wants to not have to 525 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 7: do this. I think he is incensed, not necessarily at 526 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 7: the Trump Administration's behavior, although maybe that too, Malli. I 527 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 7: think he's in sense that they're not getting the message. 528 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 7: I mean, I think from his perspective, you know, the 529 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 7: rulings I'm about to describe were meant to send a 530 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 7: message to the Trump administration to knock it off, and 531 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 7: that message has just not been received. Why is all 532 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 7: this happening, right? This is all happening to Molly, because 533 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 7: the Trump administration is trying to effectuate a policy of 534 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 7: mass summary removals right without having to go through individualized 535 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 7: process in each. 536 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: Case, right, the legal process, right. 537 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 7: And so part of what is happening in all of 538 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 7: these cases is the Trump Administration's trying to basically find 539 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 7: any way through the legal you know, sort of process, 540 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 7: the legal traps from their perspective to being able to 541 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 7: just sort of put a whole bunch of people on 542 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 7: a whole bunch of planes and get them out of 543 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 7: the country. 544 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: So talk me through the three decisions. 545 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 7: So on April seventh, right, in the first case that's JGG, 546 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 7: that's where the Supreme Court sort of split and did 547 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 7: two things right. This was one of the Alien Enemy 548 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 7: Act cases. So a five to four majority in that 549 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 7: case held that basically the right way for litigans to 550 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 7: challenge the Alien Enemy Act was not under a statute 551 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 7: called the Administrative Procedure Act, but was rather through habeas petitions, 552 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 7: basically like you can't be before Judge Boseburg, you have 553 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 7: to go to Texas. But bally in that in that 554 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 7: same case you had the Court unanimously say in that 555 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 7: at least going forward, the government could not use the 556 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 7: Alien Enemy Act to remove people without notice and judicial review, 557 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 7: without noticing a meaningful chance to contest right whether they 558 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 7: are who they say they are. So that was the 559 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 7: first ruling. The second ruling was in the case of 560 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 7: Abrigo Garcia, the guy who was wrongfully removed to El Salvador, 561 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 7: where a district judge in Maryland, Judge Paula Zenis, had 562 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 7: ordered the government to return Abrago Garcia by a day 563 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 7: in time certain and the government went to the Supreme 564 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 7: Court saying we shouldn't have to do that. And there again, Molly, 565 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 7: you had this little bit of a split decision where 566 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 7: the Supreme Court in one sense said, you know, we're 567 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 7: not going to make you produce him by a day 568 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 7: and time certain. But Judge Zenis was right that she 569 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 7: has the power to at least find out what steps 570 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 7: you could take and what steps you have taken to 571 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 7: bring him back, and so we're gonna let her do that. 572 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,719 Speaker 7: We're gonna let her try on Remann to figure all 573 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 7: that out. So that's where things were until late last. 574 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: Week the nine zero decision. Where did that come from? 575 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 7: That was a go Garcia, That was. 576 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: A nine zero for due process. Do you think that 577 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: it was written so vaguely because Roberts was trying to 578 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: get Alito and Thomas to rule nine zero. 579 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 7: Absolutely, And it's why the sodomy or separate opinion, which 580 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 7: really does read in some respects like a partial dissent, 581 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 7: is actually styled as a statement she didn't want to 582 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 7: break that. So but Mollie right, You also have the 583 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 7: nine to nothing due process holding in the JGG case 584 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 7: that all the Alien Enemy Act books are entitled to 585 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 7: due process. So now you have two different messages from 586 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 7: the Supreme Court, right, message number one you got to give. 587 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: These are both nine zero, that's right. 588 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 7: So message number one, you've got to give due process 589 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 7: to folks who before you remove them under the Alien 590 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 7: Enemy Act. Message number two, you know, even once they're removed, right, like, 591 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 7: the federal courts are not totally powerless to look into 592 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 7: the possibility of bringing them back. My sense, Mollie is 593 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 7: that John Roberts would have been very happy stopping there 594 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 7: and having the lower courts just sort of figure it 595 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 7: out from there, like filling all the details as you go. 596 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 7: But then right like late last week, like Thursday night 597 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 7: and Friday morning, you had these news stories of a 598 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 7: whole bunch of immigrants at the Blue Bonnet Detention Center, 599 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 7: which is in Ansn, Texas, just outside of Abilene, receiving 600 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 7: these completely indecipherable, incomprehensible notices only in English, even though 601 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 7: these folks are mostly only you know, Spanish speakers, suggesting 602 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 7: that they were subject to imminent removal under the Alien 603 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 7: Enemy Act, that you know, inconsistent with what the Supreme 604 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 7: Court had said. And so that set off this third 605 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 7: chain of litigation that got to the Supreme Court, like 606 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 7: in a lightning Bolt with the justices ruling Molly this time, 607 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 7: we think seven to two right after just before one 608 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 7: am Saturday morning, that basically, you know, hey, government stop. 609 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 7: And it seems to me that like that was at 610 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 7: least seven of the justices right, and you know, enough 611 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 7: of this. We're getting very frustrated, Like, you know, we 612 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 7: met what we said in those two prior decisions. So 613 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 7: the state of play Molly is that there are now 614 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 7: six different lawsuits in six different district courts challenging the 615 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 7: Alien Enemy Act as a basis for removing folks. The 616 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 7: Abrego Garcia case is still going before Judge Zenis, where 617 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 7: the government is increasingly not responding to the discovery that 618 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 7: she had required. And so you know, we're in this 619 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 7: place where it's like there's a lot going on. It's 620 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 7: not easy to keep traff of everything, but like this 621 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 7: is going and get worse before it gets better. I mean, 622 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 7: the government is by all you know, by all intents 623 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 7: and at appearances like continuing to try to play games 624 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 7: with all of this. 625 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: Okay, So we have both of these things going on 626 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: at the same time. Then we have this split descent 627 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: that was seven too. Can you talk us through that? 628 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 7: Yeah, so this was the early Saturday morning ruling. So 629 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 7: what the court didaurday morning is it really just looked 630 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 7: at the Blue Bonnet detainees and said, you know, the 631 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 7: ACLU has credible reports that they face imminent removal without 632 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 7: the process we required, and Molly, like, knowing how hard 633 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 7: it's been in Abrago, Garcia to get anyone back from 634 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 7: El Salvador, right, the justices are, you know, understandably don't 635 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 7: want to let anybody else get on a plane until 636 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 7: they've had their due process. And so that's what set 637 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 7: off Justice Alito and Justice Thomas. So from the sort 638 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 7: of early Saturday morning orders, they just noted their descent 639 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 7: and that a separate statement would would follow. Sometime around 640 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 7: eleven pm Saturday night, Justice Alito filed his descent and Molly, 641 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 7: I am. I mean, as you know, I'm not sort 642 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 7: of the biggest ban of Justice Alito's work to begin with, 643 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 7: but wow, this was I mean, it's not that it 644 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 7: was like snarky, it was just so superficially specious. Right, So, 645 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 7: so Alito offers seven bullet points where he's trying to 646 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 7: come up with like different reasons why the court acted. 647 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 7: In his words, hastily and prematurely. And you know, one 648 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 7: of those claims is that the court didn't even have 649 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 7: the power to rule. That's just silly. Alito has been 650 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 7: in the majority in lots of cases in similar contexts 651 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 7: where the court ruled. One of his claims is that 652 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 7: there was no urgency because the government had represented that 653 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 7: there would be no airplanes either Friday or Saturday. That's 654 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 7: actually a complete misstatement of what the government said. What 655 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 7: the government said before Judge Boseburg was that there will 656 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 7: be no flights on Friday, but quote, we reserve the 657 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 7: right unquote to send planes on Saturday. I wrote about 658 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 7: this for my newsletter on Monday. But like the Alito dissent, 659 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 7: just smacks of an effort to rationalize right a position 660 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 7: he knew he wanted to take, and not to actually 661 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 7: follow the law and the rules where he where they 662 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 7: where they led him. 663 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: And how does habeas factor into all of this? And 664 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: can you explain to us has. 665 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 7: Yeah, so a root of habeas corpus is one of 666 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 7: the oldest forms of legal process, Molly. The sort of 667 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 7: the old school habeas was the court would issue the 668 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 7: writ to a jailer, and the jailer was supposed to 669 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 7: produce the detainee before the judge so that the judge 670 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 7: could say, hey, why are you holding this person? 671 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 3: Right? 672 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 7: Are they who you say they are? Do you have 673 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 7: the authority to hold them? 674 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 3: Like? 675 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 7: Is all of this on the up and up? So 676 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 7: it's like the classical way of challenging executive detention. One 677 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 7: of the reasons why this litigation Molly has gotten so 678 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 7: procedurally complicated is because habeas historically has really been about individuals. 679 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 7: You know, am I being held lawfully? Are you being 680 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 7: held lawfully? And what's really needed in this case is 681 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 7: what the lawyers would call class wide relief. You really need, 682 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 7: you know, one lawsuit where a federal court can decide 683 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 7: one way or the other. Is the Alien Enemy Act 684 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 7: even lawfully applied to trende Ragua? And if it is, like, 685 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 7: what should the rules be for how the government proves 686 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 7: that you're a member of trendy Aragua. And so that's 687 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 7: what the ACLU had been trying to get that class 688 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 7: wide nationwide judgment in the case in DC and that's 689 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 7: why the Supreme Court's very first intervention on April seventh, 690 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 7: that JGG case. That's why the first part of it 691 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 7: was five to four because you had the conservative majority 692 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 7: saying nope, you got to do habeas, and you had 693 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 7: Justice Sodamaire saying, you know what the hell, One no, 694 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 7: you don't, and two if you make them do habeas, 695 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 7: it's going to get like really complicated really quickly. Lo 696 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 7: and behold, it's gotten really complicated really quickly. 697 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 4: Right. 698 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: I'm hoping you could talk about else is happening in 699 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Who decides trying to keep Trump from 700 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: turning America into Venezuela, right or El Salvador. Well, that's 701 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: also happening. They have their regular schedule, so a lot 702 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,919 Speaker 1: of these are coming on the shadow, right, or they're 703 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: going as an emergency. Explain to me how they're taking 704 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: all these Trump cases. 705 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 7: It's worth stressing two things that I think may not 706 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 7: be visible to everybody. So I think folks Molly have 707 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 7: a pretty good intuitive sense that there's been a ton 708 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 7: of litigation against Trump administration policies. What I think is 709 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 7: less visible is that Trump's Justice Department is being very 710 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 7: selective about which cases they're taken up quickly and which 711 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 7: cases they're slow walking. So you know, for example, right, 712 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 7: like the law firm lawsuits. Right, they've already lost those 713 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 7: cases in the trial courtse but they're not hustling to 714 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 7: take those appeals up. 715 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: Why is that? 716 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 7: Because they know they're losers and because they right there, 717 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 7: they're trying to sort of keep this, you know, sort 718 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 7: of in place to bully other law firms as long 719 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 7: as possible. 720 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: Say that again, because I think people need to know 721 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: that the law firms that are protesting Trump, standing up 722 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: to Trump Trump is losing. 723 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 7: Yes, the law firms are winning. The district judges here. 724 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 7: I think there are three different cases and the district 725 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 7: judges in all three cases have issued temporary restraining orders 726 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 7: blocking the executive orders, Mollie, because there have been I 727 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 7: think now ninety eight cases where district courts have either 728 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 7: granted or denied temporary relief against it. Like who can 729 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:09,720 Speaker 7: keep track of all those cases? 730 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 3: Right? Right? 731 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: But it's word to the wise. If you are a 732 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: law firm and you want to go against Trump, you 733 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: will win. 734 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 7: This is well, this is what the lawyers have been saying, right, 735 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 7: I mean, why the law firms are folding when the 736 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 7: law is so I mean, you know they're good enough lawyers, 737 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 7: Molly to know that they're going to win. 738 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: And when you're captured by Trump, you are then his 739 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: servant and you're not protected by the courts, You're not 740 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: protected by the Supreme Court. You are actually just only 741 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: at the whim of one man. 742 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 7: Right, I mean, if you make a deal voluntarily, right, 743 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,280 Speaker 7: the fact that a different executive order has been struck 744 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 7: down isn't going to help you. But meanwhile, right instead, 745 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 7: So the Trump molly here we are. It's what April 746 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 7: twenty third, so we're like ninety two days in and 747 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 7: the Trump administration has so far filed ten emergency applications 748 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 7: in the Supreme Court. So there are ten of these 749 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 7: cases that the Trump administration has tried to get to 750 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 7: the Supreme Court in a hurry. Just to put that 751 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 7: into context, during the Bush and Obama administrations, right across 752 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 7: sixteen years, if I Recoverment filed eight emergency applications. So 753 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 7: we've had more in three months than we had in 754 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 7: sixteen years. A lot of those are in this Alien 755 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 7: Enemy Act and or immigration context. But we also are 756 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 7: going to have oral arguments in May in the birthright 757 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 7: citizenship cases. We have an application pending where Trump is 758 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 7: trying to basically get the Supreme Court to sign off 759 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 7: on his firing of members of the National Labor Relations 760 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 7: Board and the Merit Systems Protection Board. 761 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the birth rate citizenship. 762 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 1: Birthrate citizenship was taken up by the Supreme Court. Why, Well, that's. 763 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 7: A good question. So what is weird about the birthright 764 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 7: citizenship cases is that the Supreme Court has only for 765 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 7: now taken up the question of whether when three different 766 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 7: district courts, one in Boston, one in Seattle, one in Greenbelt, Maryland, 767 00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 7: blocked Trump's policy, whether their injunctions were too broad. Administration 768 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 7: is not asking the Supreme Court, molly at this juncture, 769 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 7: to say that the policy is lawful, right. All they're 770 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 7: asking the Supreme Court to do is to narrow the 771 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 7: relief that the Court's provided to only the plaintiffs in 772 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,280 Speaker 7: those cases. And the reason, Mally White that's a huge 773 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 7: deal is because if the Court agrees and says, oh, 774 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 7: we're not saying anything about the merits you know, blah 775 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 7: blah blah, that still means the policy would go into 776 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 7: effect for like ninety nine percent of the country. And 777 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 7: so maybe you know you're next door neighbor who happens 778 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 7: to be covered by the policy, like maybe they could sue, 779 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 7: but they'd have to sue to get their kid to 780 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 7: be declared a citizen. 781 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,959 Speaker 1: Oh wow, so it would actually work. This is for 782 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 1: the whole Encelona. 783 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 7: And this is the pattern. So you know, we spend 784 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,760 Speaker 7: so much time ally talking about sort of John Roberts 785 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 7: trying to defuse things Trump is two I mean, and 786 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 7: what I mean by that is Trump is trying to 787 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 7: use the Supreme Court procedurally to take policies that he 788 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 7: doesn't think that he has the votes for on the marriage, 789 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 7: or he does not think or the lawyers don't think 790 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 7: that five justices are going to uphold this policy. But 791 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 7: these procedural conceits and these procedural contrivances are there to 792 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 7: try to provide the sort of the fig leaf, right, 793 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 7: the shadow of a justification for why the Supreme Court 794 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 7: could issue a technical rule in where maybe even they 795 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 7: say nasty things about the Burke relationship policy, but the 796 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 7: practical effect is that the policy goes goes into force. 797 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: That is so craven in a way. But there's also 798 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: a lot of other policies. Just two more seconds on 799 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: this what else Because there's an anti LGBTQ. 800 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 3: Believe it or not. 801 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 7: The Supreme Court also has a regular job, right, and 802 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 7: so the Court is in the middle of the April 803 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 7: oral argument calendar, which Molly traditionally is where all the 804 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 7: big cases go. So you know, you and I are 805 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 7: sitting here on Wednesday. On Tuesday, the Court had this 806 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 7: big oral argument about whether parents of public school kids 807 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 7: in Montgomery County, Maryland can object to the inclusion of 808 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 7: certain books in the curriculum on religious grounds, right, books 809 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 7: that portray same sex couples in a positive light, et cetera. 810 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 7: Next week, the Supreme Court has an oral argument on 811 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 7: whether the Oklahoma Constitution violates the First Amendments Free Exercise 812 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 7: Clause because it's been interpreted to not allow the state 813 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 7: to fund religious charter schools, right, meaning like must states 814 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,399 Speaker 7: fund religious charter schools. The Supreme Court still has its 815 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,760 Speaker 7: regular bucket of cases that are going to make people 816 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 7: like you and me tear our hair out. Well, you 817 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 7: still have hair. But what's crazy about what's going on 818 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 7: is all of this emergency application stuff. This happening not 819 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 7: in lieu of those big cases, but on top of them, 820 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,319 Speaker 7: where it's just like the Supreme Court is busier and 821 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 7: more in the middle of everything than really we've ever 822 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 7: seen before. 823 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: If it comes down to it, do you think ultimately 824 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: there are five saying people on the court. 825 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 3: I do. 826 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 7: So let me say this as clearly and emphatically as possible. 827 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 7: I think there are exactly five votes in the big 828 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 7: rule of law cases to stand up for basic principles 829 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 7: of due process, to stand up for basic principles of 830 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 7: separation of powers. And just to be clear, I think 831 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 7: that the five votes are the three Democratic appointees and 832 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 7: Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Ammy Cony Barrett. 833 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 1: And that's it, and that's it. 834 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 7: And so when I lose sleepover is not that I 835 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 7: think there are five votes, and I think those five 836 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 7: votes will will be enough when we get there. Where 837 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 7: I lose sleepover is how much damage and how much 838 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 7: mess and how much disruption there's going to be until 839 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,760 Speaker 7: and unless we get to that point. 840 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: Thank you, Stephen Bladock, Thanks Molly, No moment, Jesse Cannon Somley. 841 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 2: In our home city of New York, this is really 842 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 2: really grotesque stuff. We have four year olds going to 843 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 2: court in New York City with no lawyer for immigration. 844 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 1: It's disgusting. This country is falling apart This is not 845 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: how any supposed work. Four year olds should not be 846 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: going to courthouses by themselves, they should be being protected. 847 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: The fact that this country is so uninterested in protecting 848 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: children is just so incredibly distressing and unsurprising and disgusting 849 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,439 Speaker 1: and will forever be our moment of fuck Ray. 850 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can't help but think that this is 851 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 2: the logical conclusion of what happens after Eric Adams is 852 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 2: shown to be Tom Holman's pet and has meetings with 853 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,280 Speaker 2: Christy nom this week the worst. 854 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,800 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 855 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 856 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,759 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 857 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 858 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.