1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: should know. The man, this is a bummer edition. 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, the zero laughs edition, because we're talking about the 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 3: Highway of Tears and there's no other way around it. 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 3: This is just a devastating topic. 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, we should tell people. I mean, the Highway of 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: Tears is fairly famous. It's kind of been in the 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: news and in pop culture, I guess for a while. 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: I guess at least since the nineties, but really in 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 2: the early two thousands I think has reen it picked 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: up regardless. It is a stretch of desolate highway that 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: runs from in British Columbia up in Canada, from the 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: the port city of Prince Rupert all the way into 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: the interior to Prince George. And it's I think seven 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty kilometers almost four hundred and fifty miles, 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: and it's known as Highway sixteen officially. But the stretches 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: of this highway are so desolate, so remote, and so 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 2: sparsely populated that it is become a haven for murderers 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: who pick people up, mostly women, mostly Indigenous women, on 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: this road and either make them disappear forever or murder them. 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: And it's it's endemic in this area, so much so 24 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: that it's caught national attention. It's just how poorly this 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: group of women are being treated and their families as well. 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, as you'll see, it's and you know, 27 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: there are many reasons for this, but it's a heavily 28 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: hitched hiked road and that can be very dangerous and 29 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 3: so a lot of times these are hitchhikers, people just 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 3: trying to get from one place to another, and like 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: you said, they are you know, either sexually assaulted or 32 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: murdered or both. And these are the people that you know, 33 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 3: like they found bodies, there are you know, dozens and 34 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 3: dozens more than these dozens who have survived attacks and 35 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 3: rapes along that stretch of highway. So you know, it's 36 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: no secret why it's called the highway Tiers. Big thanks 37 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: to Olivia for enduring this topic and helping us out 38 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: with it, and big thanks to Al Jazeera, where she 39 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 3: got a lot of information from a six part series 40 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 3: they did in twenty twenty one. 41 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of good sources. The CBC of 42 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: the Vancouver Sun's a good one. There's been a decent 43 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: amount of coverage, but it's it's not the kind of 44 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: coverage you would get when say, like like a Caucasian 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: girl goes missing, which we'll talk about. It's the kind 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: of about how this group of people have just been 47 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: totally basically left on their own to deal with something 48 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: like this, that they don't have the resources to deal 49 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: with this, and it's just such a terrible story. The 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: story is so much larger than this collection of murders, 51 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: but at the core, that's what it comes down to, 52 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: just women who were treated like disposable beings. And the 53 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: whole thing starts at the very earliest, as far as 54 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 2: anyone knows. The first murder that's become part of what 55 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: you'd call the canon of the Highway of tears murders 56 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: and abductions started in nineteen sixty nine. A woman named 57 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: Lavinia Gloria Moody was murdered on Highway sixteen and it 58 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: went kind of went along like that for a while. 59 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: There was but no one had kind of put together 60 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: this whole group of people and call it the Highway 61 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: of Tears, and they wouldn't for years to come, but 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: at the time there was enough going on that they 63 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: could coin this term the Highway murders. And by nineteen 64 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: eighty one enough women and girls had been murdered to 65 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: go on missing along Highway sixteen that a group of 66 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: Royal Canadian Mounted Police detectives from all over British Columbia 67 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: and I think Alberta got together and decided to kind 68 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: of compare notes and see if they could solve some 69 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: of these unsolved cases. 70 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: Yes. Absolutely. 71 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 3: While this was going on, you know, when the cops 72 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 3: were sort of slowly coming around to the idea that 73 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 3: there was a specific problem along this stretch, the families 74 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: were getting involved, the families of the missing, the families 75 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: of those who were found dead, and you know, they 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: organized their own efforts. One case that really kind of 77 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 3: brought everything to even more of ahead was the case 78 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 3: of Romona Wilson. This was in June of nineteen ninety four. 79 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: She was sixteen years old and she went to go 80 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: meet up with a friend to go to some you 81 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: know into the year school graduation parties. She never got there, 82 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 3: and her mom, Matilda, was like the cops don't really 83 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: seem to care much that this happened. And so the 84 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 3: locals got together and they started organizing, They started doing, 85 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: you know, going on search parties and looking out for her. 86 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: They ultimately, you know, very sadly, discovered her body about 87 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: ten months later at an airport. Her clothes were found 88 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 3: near her with some rope and some cabling. And so 89 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: her mom and her older sister Brenda, and you know, 90 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: other members of her family and the community got together 91 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 3: and said, all right, the least we can do is 92 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: try and raise some awareness since no one seems to 93 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 3: be paying attention. So they got a memorial walk together 94 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 3: in June of ninety five, which became an annual thing. 95 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was another woman who really deserves a lot 96 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: of credit for bringing national attention to this. She's a 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: Wet Sudan Nation woman. And in nineteen ninety eight there 98 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: was a vigil where she coined the term Highway of Tears, 99 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: which I can't I don't think you can really calculate 100 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: how much that helped this case. It was like, hey, media, 101 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: here's a nice little tidy package for you to report on. 102 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: It's even got a catchy name, despite you know, the 103 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: actual obvious emotion behind calling it the Highway of Tears. 104 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 2: I think it really helped quite a bit. And Florence 105 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: Nezil also is credited with starting a walk that covered 106 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: the entire again four hundred and fifty miles stretch of 107 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 2: highway of the Highway of Tears for the first time. 108 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 2: That walk's been made scores of times by now over 109 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: the years by family members and community members and members 110 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: of other nations who've gotten involved to try to again 111 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: help ask for resources, ask to get the police involved more, 112 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: because that's another recurring theme throughout as Chuck, is that 113 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: the police have shown over and over again opportunity after 114 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: opportunity to just not really seemed to care. 115 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 116 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely, she had already been working, you know, to raise 117 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: awareness when very tragically it hit hit home for her 118 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: in a more personal way when one of her family members, 119 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: a woman named Tamara Chipman, went missing in two thousand 120 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: and five. And you know, all this is going on 121 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: through the you know, I think it was nineteen eighty 122 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: one when the cops finally started sort of getting together 123 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 3: and comparing notes, and that was after at least twelve 124 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: years since the first known murder, and it took all 125 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 3: the way into the two thousands for things to really 126 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: take a turn. And that was when very tragically, a 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: woman named Nicole Hoher. 128 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: Was killed. 129 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: She was twenty five years old and she was white. 130 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: She disappeared in two thousand and two, and this is 131 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 3: what really brought the national attention. You've heard a journalist 132 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: named Gwynn Eiffel in the United States coined the term 133 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: missing white woman syndrome, which. 134 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: Is the idea that it takes. 135 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 3: A white person to be, you know, the victim of 136 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: a crime for anyone to kind of sit up and 137 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 3: take notice. In members of indigenous communities or marginalized communities 138 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: are often overlooked and underfunded and under resourced, and you know, 139 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: the cases are kind of swept under the rug. And 140 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 3: that's exactly what was going on in Canada for many, 141 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: many years and still is to a certain degree. 142 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have been 143 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 2: called the task time and time and time again for 144 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: not taking this stuff seriously enough, not devoting the enough 145 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: resources to it. But also the media is largely responsible 146 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: to not just in this case, but in any case 147 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: of a missing or murdered woman who's not white. In 148 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: the United States or Canada, they get much less coverage, 149 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: and the intensity of the coverage is much less too, 150 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: compared to white women. It's not just anecdotal. I was 151 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: reading at least one study on it from two thousand 152 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: and sixteen, I think in the Journal of Law and Criminology, 153 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: and they were like, yes, we analyze this stuff and 154 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: it's absolutely true. So there's like a but there's a 155 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: bitter gratitude involved because the death of Nicole Hoer, she 156 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: like it did bring a lot of attention to this. Yeah, 157 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: and you just can't you can't deny that, and so 158 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 2: that's good. But at the same time, it's just like, man, 159 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: we've been having to we've been trying to deal with 160 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: this for decades, and now this one white girl becomes 161 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: part of the crowd of murdered girls, and like, now 162 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: now people care. It's got to be really tough to take. 163 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: And I know I called her a girl, and she 164 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 2: was twenty five, so she was a woman. But there's like, 165 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: this whole group is made up of women and girls. 166 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: I know it's not interchangeable, but it's important to say, 167 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: like some of these I mean, the youngest victim was twelve. 168 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 2: Monica Jacks I think died in the late seventies, maybe 169 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight. Like, there are plenty of girls who 170 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: were picked up and murdered. There are also plenty of 171 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: women too, and not all of them were Indigenous, a 172 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: lot of them were white. But the cops, as they 173 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: started to get together, came up with some criteria that 174 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 2: they applied to these cases that kind of narrowed the search, 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 2: but also brought on new cases that they hadn't they 176 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: hadn't considered before, as we'll see. 177 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so in two thousand and five, this is just 178 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: a few years after Nicole Howard brought more attention to 179 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 3: the issue. The RCMP, the Royal Canadian amount of Police 180 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 3: will probably call them that RCMP maybe mounties do they 181 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 3: still go by that. 182 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 2: I think so, whether they like it or not, everybody 183 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: calls them mounties. 184 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 185 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 3: They launched what was called the Unsolved Homicide Unit, launched 186 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 3: something called Project E Pana the letter E. That was 187 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 3: just the division of the rc MP, and Pana is 188 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: named after an Inuit goddess who cares for souls in 189 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 3: the afterworld. And they there, you know, their official designation was, Hey, 190 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 3: we think we have a serial killer. 191 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: Maybe more than one out there on this Highway of tears. 192 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: It's a pretty, like you said, a pretty great place 193 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 3: to get away with a crime like that, because it's 194 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: so desolate. Up until recently there were long, long, long, long, 195 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: long stretches where you had no cell phone service even 196 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: so you couldn't you know, call anyone if you were 197 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: in trouble. Not very many people around, and plenty of 198 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: animals around to take care of bodies and the remains. 199 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 3: So they found some common allies and three teenage girls. 200 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: Ramona Wilson, who I mentioned a woman named Roxanne Thierra, 201 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: fifteen years old from Prince George. This is a very 202 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 3: sad case. She was in the foster system and the 203 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: juvenile incarceration system and she eventually had to turn to 204 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: survival sex, which is a term for women who are 205 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 3: forced to resort to sex work to feed and clothe themselves, 206 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: and it's usually means like instead of getting money, they 207 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 3: get food and clothing and items to live and survive. 208 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety four, she told a friend she was 209 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 3: going to meet one of her clients. She disappeared and 210 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: her body was discovered off Highway sixteen, and then finally 211 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: Alicia Germaine was fifteen years old lasting in nineteen ninety 212 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: four at a Christmas dinner and she was discovered close 213 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 3: to Highway sixteen. So that's when they came up with 214 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: their criteria to see if they could sort of narrow 215 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: this down right. 216 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just one thing, Rock sand and Leah or 217 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: Alicia who also went by Leah. They were friends and 218 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: also colleagues. They both were sex workers who were engaged 219 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: in survival sex. Ramona who was not engaged in anything 220 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: like that. She I think she worked at a restaurant 221 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: or something. But Ramona, Roxanne, and Leah all were murdered 222 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: in the same area. Between Ramona was June, Roxanne July 223 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 2: Leah in December of nineteen ninety four. I think in 224 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: all their cases in this area, everybody's like there's something 225 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: going on. The cops are like, just give us eleven 226 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: more years and we'll come together and come up with 227 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: this new EPANA project. And right when they did, those 228 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: three just stuck out immediately. It's like there's some real 229 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: commonalities here. They need to be investigated. But like you 230 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: were saying, the three criteria that they came up with 231 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: from this EPANA project, you had to be female, You 232 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: had to last be seen dead or alive within a 233 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: mile Highway sixteen, and then you also had to be 234 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: involved in high risk activities like sex work, but also hitchhiking. 235 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: And we should say here too for those of us 236 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: who grew up in towns with bus service and cabs 237 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: and you could walk places and get to where you're 238 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: going easily, ride your bike, like hitchhiking almost seemed like frivolous. 239 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: Hitchhiking is a way to live and survive and get 240 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: to work in this area. It has been for decades, 241 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: So it's not like I think you can view hitchhiking 242 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: as like, man, why did you hitchhike? In a lot 243 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: of cases, the women and girls who were picked up 244 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: hitchhiking were trying to get to where they were going, 245 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: like they weren't like just hitting the road like they 246 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: that was just part of daily life for them. Unfortunately. 247 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, so once they narrow down this criteria, they found 248 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 3: more cases that sort of fit that and were lumped 249 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 3: into the Highway of Tears murders. Alberta Williams was twenty 250 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: four and she was celebrating at a pub at the 251 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: end of summer after working there seasonally with her sister. 252 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: This was nineteen eighty nine. Her body was found about 253 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: a month after her disappearance. Delphine Nikol was sixteen years old, 254 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: disappeared in nineteen ninety well hitch hiking. Lanta Derrek, nineteen 255 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: year old college student, disappeared in October of ninety five. 256 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: We mentioned Tamra Chipman that was the relative of Florence 257 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: and Aziel. She was twenty two and the mother of 258 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 3: a two year old boy, disappeared while hitchhiking in two 259 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: thousand and five, and then fourteen year old Aliyah Sarah 260 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: Auger went missing from Prince George in two thousand and 261 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: six and she was found deceased in a ditch right 262 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 3: beside the highway Highway sixteen and Aila. 263 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's how you say her name. She 264 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: was the last one to be officially added, like as 265 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: far as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are concerned, she's 266 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: the last high Way of Tears victim, although as we'll see, 267 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: there have been plenty more who would qualify for sure. 268 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: The problem is EPANA is very much underfunded and not 269 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 2: basically not really operational right now, so they're not adding 270 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: people for that reason. But when they looked into this 271 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: a little more, they basically went back to their credit 272 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: and found that there was about three hundred boxes of 273 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: information and paperwork on all these cases. And so they're like, 274 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: we can't get anywhere until we have all this stuff 275 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: logged in some sort of database. So they created the 276 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: database and they logged in, and it took them like 277 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: a year. But after they finally got all that stuff 278 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: in some of those older cases, the ones between nineteen 279 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: sixty nine and nineteen eighty one, they started bubbling up 280 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: toward the top and were eventually included, starting with that 281 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: first one with Gloria Moody, also including Monica Jack and 282 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:58,119 Speaker 2: then there was also Micheline Pare, Gaylen Weiss, Pamela Darlington, 283 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: Colleen McMillan, and Monica Ingus and then Maureen Mosey and 284 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: again all of them were killed between nineteen sixty nine 285 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 2: and eighty one Paul along Highway sixteen, and a lot 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: of them were hitchhiking as well. 287 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, if you look into these cases 288 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 3: and people, you know, the volunteers that are working with 289 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 3: some of these, you know a lot of them are 290 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 3: run by, you know, families of victims, they will say 291 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: that it's probably more like, you know, fifty people advocates 292 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: say that, you know, the total is way higher than 293 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 3: they're saying it is, you know, kind of for all 294 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 3: the reasons that we've mentioned so far, and that seems 295 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 3: like a good time to take. 296 00:17:38,000 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: Our first break and we'll be right back, all right. 297 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 3: So when we left off, we were saying that the 298 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: total number is could be as high as fifty. If 299 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 3: you look at all these cases, and not a lot 300 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 3: of them have been solved, there are a few exceptions 301 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 3: here and there that definitely showed that there were serial killers, 302 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: a killer or killers operating. There was one big one 303 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve with Colleen McMillan. She was murdered hitch hiking. 304 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 3: She was sixteen years old. This is nineteen seventy four, 305 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: but they had, you know, in some of the evidence 306 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 3: boxes had her blouse still and with the improvement in 307 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 3: DNA matching and databases and stuff like that, they were 308 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 3: able to find a match on Interpol. It was an 309 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 3: American named Bobby Jack Fowler, who had died in prison 310 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 3: in two thousand and six, where he was serving time 311 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 3: for attempted kidnapping and attempted murder on another woman in 312 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, and they found that he had been 313 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: working as a roofer in Canada when this murder and 314 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 3: others took place, and you know, basically we're like, it 315 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: was probably two other women as well on the list, 316 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 3: Pamela Darlington and Gail Weiss, and they were both murdered 317 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy three, but he died in prison before 318 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 3: they could officially pin that on him. 319 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 2: Yes, and from what I've read about Bobby Jack Fowler 320 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: is the kind of scumbag that you wish you could 321 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 2: go dig up and reanimate so you can punish him 322 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: some more. He was terrible. And when the Canadian cops 323 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: were like, hey, you guys had somebody incarcerated in your prisons, 324 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: to the officials in Oregon who killed at least one 325 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 2: girl here but probably three total, you should probably look 326 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: around at your own files, they started finding. I think 327 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: they've said up to maybe twenty murders that they've pinned 328 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 2: on Bobby Jack Fowler. Nothing they can prove, but it's 329 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: just likely that he committed them. And he'll obviously never 330 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 2: be convicted or tried for him because he's dead. But 331 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: it just it goes to show you like there are 332 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 2: human beings out there who will just kidnap, rape and 333 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: murder and just do it over and over again. And 334 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: the easiest thing to do in the world is, if 335 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: you're going to do that kind of thing, is take 336 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 2: advantage of a very vulnerable population in a very sparsely 337 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 2: populated area, which makes Highway sixteen just like the perfect spot. 338 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another guy. 339 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: In fact, he's the only living person convicted of one 340 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 3: of these murders from someone on the E panelist. 341 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: His name is Gary Taylor Handlin. 342 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 3: He, you know, going back to the nineteen sixties, had 343 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: committed multiple rapes, been in jail multiple times for these rapes. 344 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 3: One was a hitchhiker in nineteen seventy eight and he 345 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 3: became a suspect. And the youngest victim twelve year old 346 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 3: Monica Jack that you had mentioned earlier, and also Katherine 347 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 3: Mary Herbert eleven years old. She just was not one 348 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: of the E paniccases. But they caught him by setting 349 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 3: up a sting operation in which they kind of created 350 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: this fake crime enterprise where he was answering to an 351 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 3: undercover cought playing a crime boss who got him to 352 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: confess that he abducted and strangled Monica Jack. And this 353 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 3: is when he also confessed to killing Katherine Mary Herbert. 354 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: But that confession was ruled and admissible, but he was 355 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 3: convicted of Jack's murder in twenty nineteen. 356 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, he I hadn't heard of this, but that's apparently 357 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: a fairly typical sting operation. They call him a mister 358 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: Big operation where you just introduced to successively higher up 359 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: criminals in some organization that they're all cops. The judge 360 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: was like, no, the admission to or confession to Katherine 361 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: Mary Herbert's murder in admissible, but he thought that he 362 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 2: was basically convincing this crime boss to get him out 363 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: of being tried convicted for Monica Jack's murder. So they're like, 364 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: that's totally admissible. He completely volunteered that, but yeah, I 365 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: mean he went down for it. But like you said, 366 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: he's the only living person who's ever been convicted for 367 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: one of these dozens of murders. 368 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. 369 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 3: So, you know, we mentioned two thousand and six is 370 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 3: when they stopped officially tagging names onto the official epanelist. 371 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 3: There have still been plenty of murders and sexual assaults 372 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 3: along that stretch of highway since then, Cody Lejebikov, I. 373 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: Believe is how you pronounced that it sounds. 374 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 3: Right killed three women and a fifteen year old girl 375 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: between two thousand and nine and twenty ten, So that 376 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: was after the official list. Two of those victims were indigenous, 377 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 3: and the cops caught him when they just pulled him 378 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 3: over for a speeding violation and found blood on him, 379 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: and they found the body of a fifteen year old 380 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 3: Lauren don Leslie, and then you know, realized that they 381 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: could link him to and I believe he was convicted 382 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 3: to of killing of three other women, Jill Stacy Stachenko, 383 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 3: Cynthia Francis Moss, and Natasha Lin Montgomery. 384 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so all three of them were from Prince George, 385 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: which is the easternmost town considered part of the Highway 386 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: of Tears. And Cody was nineteen when he killed the 387 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 2: first of them, Jill Stacy Stachenko. He's not the youngest 388 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: serial killer in Canadian history, but he too, like the 389 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 2: other guys, was a scumbag and still is. He was 390 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: sentenced to no less than twenty five years four times, 391 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: but it appears that his sentences are concurrent. So he's 392 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 2: serving twenty five years for four murders, and the judge 393 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 2: reminded him that he could apply for parole as early 394 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 2: as fifteen years in. So that's four years from now 395 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: that this guy might be able to get out after 396 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: being convicted of murdering for three women and a girl. 397 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: I don't like that. 398 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, So you mentioned Florence Nazil earlier having organized her 399 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 3: own walk. 400 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: This was in two thousand and six. 401 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 3: They called it the Highway of Tiers Awareness Walk, and 402 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: they walked two weeks. They walked through snowstorms, they walked 403 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 3: through some you know, terrible weather and conditions, and eventually 404 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 3: ended at the Highway of Tiers Symposium in Prince George. 405 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: And again this wasn't something organized by the cops or anything. 406 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: It was organized by indigenous groups and victims families themselves. 407 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: But they did have five hundred delegates from the Mounies 408 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 3: there as well as some representative from you know, the 409 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: Canadian government there, and it was basically a symposium where 410 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 3: they had recommendations on what they could do, you know, 411 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 3: not only to help solve these crimes, but to prevent 412 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: more of this from happening. We'll get to you know 413 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: what's happened since then, because they have done some things 414 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: that seemed like they should probably help. But also you know, 415 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 3: how to support these families, how to support these communities 416 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: a little better because it was, you know, not well 417 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: funded and any kind of work was very sparse up 418 00:24:59,400 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: until that point. 419 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. So Brenda Wilson, Ramona Wilson's sister, she works for 420 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 2: Carrius Sikhani Family Services, and she's the one employee of 421 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: the Highway of Tears Initiative, and she frequently has to 422 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: work for free because they just are like, we're out 423 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: of money again, wait till next quarter for the check 424 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: to come in. And obviously she's extremely dedicated. But that's 425 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: a kind of a par for the course thing, like 426 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: just the funding is just not there. And if you 427 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: follow like government funding, that usually goes to stuff that 428 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: people care about or like a lot of people care about. 429 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: So if you don't get funding, it's a kind of 430 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 2: a big slap in the face in addition to you know, 431 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: really tying your hands from doing the work you're trying 432 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: to do. 433 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, there's a lot of distrust for 434 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 3: the Mounties there, and for good reasons. 435 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: In a lot of cases we'll see. 436 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 3: There's a woman named Gladys Raddick who was an aunt 437 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: of Tamra Chipman, one of the victims, and she she 438 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: leads a cause called Tears for Justice, the number four. 439 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 3: She has a lot of distrust of the police because 440 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: as a teenager she ran away and was hitchhiking and 441 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 3: was picked up two different times by RCMP officers who 442 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 3: raped her. So, I mean, as far as the RCMP 443 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 3: is concerned, they're like, we're going to investigate this stuff, 444 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: and we're going to treat anyone within our ranks who 445 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 3: does something like this just like we would any common criminal. 446 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,239 Speaker 3: But the fact that that stuff happens period, and that 447 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 3: they're like a human There's a Human Rights Watch report 448 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 3: that came out in twenty twelve that documented police abuse 449 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 3: against Indigenous women and girls, and that's like literal abuse 450 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 3: and sexual assault the cops are taking part in at 451 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 3: the worst then all the way down to just being 452 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 3: hostile or uninterested in what happened to these crime victims 453 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: and families. 454 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, because as the Canadian government has said many times 455 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: and is recognized and apologize for Canada's history of how 456 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 2: they've treated their Indigenous populations, like putting them in residential schools. 457 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: Apparently in the sixties there was a second wave of 458 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: that kind of thing, but rather than residential schools, they 459 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: took kids from their family homes and put them in 460 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 2: with foster families, and so there was a lot of 461 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: breakup of the culture and families in the indigenous tribes 462 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 2: in the area, and as a result, like poverty began, 463 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 2: violence really set in deaths of despair like suicide and 464 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: alcoholism and drug overdoses and an inability to take care 465 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: of themselves. And then you couple that reality with somebody 466 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: coming to the police and saying, my daughter hasn't come 467 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 2: home since Friday, and they're like, Friday, huh, what was 468 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: she doing last while she went to a party. Then 469 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: she's probably just on a week long bender. Just give 470 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: her a few days. From all the stories I've read, 471 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: I would say ninety percent of the family said that 472 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: that was the first response they got from police. 473 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, and not only that, but they've been shown to 474 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 3: get rid of information. So in twenty fifteen, Elizabeth Denham, 475 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 3: she is the Commissioner for the Information in Privacy for 476 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 3: British Columbia, she put out a report that said officials 477 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 3: removed like one hundred and fifty emails about the Highway 478 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: of Tears from their database, which was a violation of 479 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 3: the Freedom and Information and Protection of Privacy Act. 480 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: Right which was obviously didn't foster any further trust with 481 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: the Royal Canadian Mound and Police, and I guess in response, 482 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, the Commissioner of the Mawnies, Brenda Lucky, 483 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: actually issued like a formal heartfelt apology for the problems 484 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 2: that the families have been facing in the lack of 485 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: support they've been getting from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, 486 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: which has been few and far between. But I think 487 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: when it does, when something like that does happen, it 488 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: goes a long way, and I think the families are 489 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: kind of like, Okay, let's let's get back to work 490 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: with the Mounties again. 491 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 492 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 3: So what this represents though, as a larger population scene, 493 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: not only in Canada, but the United States and all 494 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 3: over the world where minority communities are. Although they represent, 495 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 3: you know, sometimes a small part of the population, they 496 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: make up a much larger part of people in prison, 497 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 3: of people who were killed by police. And that's certainly 498 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: the case in Canada. I think you know, part of 499 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: the reason that EPANA has gotten mixed not only results, 500 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 3: but mixed reviews over the year for their work is 501 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 3: because they've just been you know, they came out with 502 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 3: a bang, and then they've sort of been slowly waning 503 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 3: over the years. I think they went from sixty assigned 504 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 3: officers down to six by twenty twenty two. 505 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a guy staff sargeant named Wayne Clary 506 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: who said, you know, we probably aren't going to be 507 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 2: able to make any more arrests in these cases, that 508 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: most of them are stranger on stranger violence, so there's 509 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: basically no motive other than to sexually assault and kill. 510 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: It's really hard to track somebody down, especially when you 511 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: don't have many leads. So we're probably going to have 512 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: to get used to the fact that these murders are 513 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: going to go unsolved. But from what I was reading, 514 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: there's a lot of families who are like, this wasn't 515 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: a stranger. We know the guy who did it, he 516 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: lives over there, and they're not getting listened to. And 517 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,239 Speaker 2: then also there was a report from twenty sixteen, an 518 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 2: analysis of thirty two cases. Did you see this part 519 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 2: about where the police had said that there was no 520 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: foul play in these murders of Indigenous women, and this 521 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: analysis is like, that's kind of a weird thing to say, 522 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: because some of them were found nude, some of them 523 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: had unexplained injuries. In some cases the coroner contradicted the 524 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: idea that there is no foul play, and yet they 525 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: have been logged as no foul play and therefore they're 526 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: not being investigated because they're not considered murders. 527 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, along the lines of what I 528 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 3: was talking about before, this is not just a Canada problem. 529 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: There's an official name for something like this, missing and 530 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: Murdered Indigenous women and Girls mmi WG, and that has happened, 531 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 3: you know, all over North America and other places in 532 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: the world. There's some estimates that say Indigenous women and 533 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 3: girls are twelve times more likely than the general population 534 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 3: to go missing or to be murdered in Canada and 535 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 3: ten times more likely in the US. And there have 536 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 3: been people trying to bring attention to this as well. 537 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 3: There's an artist named Jamie Black who made these really 538 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 3: powerful installations. That is, sometimes the most powerful ones are 539 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: very simple, and that's the case here where it would 540 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 3: hang empty red dresses in public places and it really 541 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 3: caught on, and since twenty ten, Canada has recognized May 542 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 3: fifth as red dressed day. 543 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: Yep, let's take our second break and we'll come back. 544 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 2: How about that, all right? Okay, Chuck, So you said 545 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: the magic word missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. 546 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: It's a thing, and Canada launched an inquiry into that group, 547 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: and some people in the Highway of Tears community gave 548 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: testimony for it. They released a report in twenty nineteen 549 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: and they said, look, let's just cut to the chase here. 550 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: It's not like Native American tribes were living in poverty 551 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 2: and destitution and engaged in sex work and alcoholism and 552 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: drug addiction before we Euro Canadians came along and just 553 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: completely disrupted their culture. So this is actually this problem 554 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. It's part 555 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: of a larger, bigger picture, a history of being exploited 556 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: and left vulnerable and not protected by the people who 557 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: were supposed to protect them. 558 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 3: This is not new, yeah, and I mean, this is 559 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 3: horrific to look at. But of the one of the 560 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 3: problems is they found that whenever they have a very 561 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: large group of only men around in a desolate area 562 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 3: for one reason or another, sexual assaults and murders happen. 563 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: And that is the case in these isolated parts of 564 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 3: Canada where the fossil fuel industry is. So what will 565 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: happen is they'll go to work on a pipeline or 566 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 3: something and they have what's called a man camp with 567 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 3: like a thousand dudes on site working out in the 568 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 3: middle of nowhere together and historically speaking, not just here, 569 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 3: but kind of everywhere, this has happened dating back to 570 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 3: the eighteen hundreds. When this happens, they're going to be 571 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 3: sexual assaults and murdered and disappeared women and girls nearby. 572 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's reports that show like an actual correlation, like 573 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: a man camp shows up. Sexual assaults of indigenous women 574 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: goes up in the area too. And unfortunately, this part 575 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 2: of Northern British Columbia that the Highway of Tiers runs through, 576 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 2: that's like this central area for Canada's resource extraction. So 577 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 2: there are a lot of man camps there and there's 578 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 2: plenty more coming. So that in and of itself is 579 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: a problem, and it's not just in Canada. Apparently, North 580 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 2: Dakota underwent an oil boom back in the two thousand aughts, 581 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 2: and as more and more people were brought in as laborers, 582 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 2: sexual assault of Indigenous women there went up too, because 583 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: they're also pretty vulnerable here in the United States as well. 584 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this happens everywhere all over the world 585 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 3: that that is the case, it's not just North America. 586 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 3: They've taken some steps I mentioned earlier some of the 587 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 3: things that they're doing that seem like they would help out. 588 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: One is, we got to stop people. 589 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 3: From hitchhiking, or at least reduce the rate of hitchhikers. 590 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 3: They don't have any other way to get around sometimes, 591 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: like you mentioned, So in twenty seventeen, British Columbia Transit 592 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 3: move forward on something that came out of that two 593 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 3: thousand and sixth summit. So well, eleven years later that 594 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 3: launched three new bus routes along Highway sixteen. But that 595 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 3: didn't work for very long because that worked in conjunction 596 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 3: with Greyhound, and just two years after that, and like 597 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 3: five thousand people were now using the service, Greyhound cut 598 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 3: back on the routes there because they weren't turning a profit, 599 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 3: and so all of a sudden hitchhiking was back on 600 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 3: the map again. 601 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, And just a lot of people just don't 602 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 2: have cars, and if you do have a car, it's 603 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: probably being used by somebody else. I remember what was 604 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 2: the movie Smoke Signals. I think they talk about the 605 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 2: res car, where it's just like a car, everybody just 606 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: kind of shares and it just gets handed from person 607 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: to person when you need it. So, yeah, hitchhiking's going 608 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: to be a lot more convenient in some cases. Cell 609 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: phone you said, also, cell phone service is a big 610 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: deal too. 611 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean just not being able to call 612 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 3: nine one one very simply is a problem. So in 613 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, I mean just four years ago, it's 614 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 3: astounding that it took this long. The provincial and federal 615 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 3: governments said, all right, we'll chip in four and a 616 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 3: half million bucks out of what will eventually cost eleven 617 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 3: and a half million total to get Rogers' Communications to 618 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 3: put to get coverage all along this highway with cell 619 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 3: phone towers. And I think by the end of last year, 620 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 3: the good news is nine of those eleven towers were up, 621 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 3: and hopefully soon the entire four hundred and fifty ish 622 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 3: mile stretch you'll at least be able to call the cops. 623 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was a big one of the two 624 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty one calls for justice that came out 625 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: of that symposium in twenty fifteen. And for I mean, 626 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: that's lightning fast, if like, for this kind of stuff 627 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 2: that happened that past. So just two more to go, everybody, 628 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 2: let's get it done in twenty twenty five. Yeah, absolutely, 629 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 2: there's also like a little bit of a certainly I 630 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 2: wouldn't call it a tuss or anything, but there's a 631 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: growing kind of disagreement on how to approach this. Up 632 00:37:54,239 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 2: to basically, I guess twenty twenty three, the approach was exclusive. 633 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 2: This is a horrific situation, This is tragic, This is 634 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 2: super sad, and it doesn't need to portray it any 635 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 2: other way. That's just what it is. And the Carrier 636 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 2: Sikhani Center, remember they run the Highway of Tears initiative, 637 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: They're like, what if we just kind of alter this 638 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 2: a little bit, what if we make this more of 639 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: a hopeful thing for a very long time. There's some 640 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: famous billboards along the Highway of Tears. It had pictures 641 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 2: of three of the victims, Ramona Delphine and Cecilia, who 642 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 2: isn't included in the canonical victims, but she was Delphine's cousin. 643 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 2: They went missing within six months of each other, and 644 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: I think Cecilia's never been found again. They're pictures around 645 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 2: this billboard and not on the billboard it said girls 646 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 2: don't hitchhike on the Highway of Tears, kill her on 647 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: the loose. Well, that was helpful for years and years 648 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 2: and years. But Carrier Sikhani's like, you know, there's a 649 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 2: way that some people who don't understand our way of 650 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 2: hitchhiking why we do it, could possibly see that as 651 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: like there's some sort of victim blaming in there. So 652 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 2: what if we just kind of remove that and make 653 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 2: this whole more hopeful message. And they unveiled I think 654 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 2: four billboards that kind of change things a little bit, right. 655 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 3: Uh. Yeah, they say we are hope, we are strength, 656 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 3: keep Highway sixteen safe. And you know, there are obviously 657 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 3: critics of that messaging because they're saying, we don't want 658 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 3: to say that there's hope because right now, with the 659 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 3: way things are going with the Mounties and the investigations, 660 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 3: like there is no hope. 661 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: So why say that if it's not hopeful. 662 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And I think the billboards coexist. And the 663 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 2: critics of that were like, Okay, these billboards can coexist. 664 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 2: That's a great billboard. We're fine. But it was when 665 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 2: they proposed, I think, yeah, Carrier Sikhani proposed, hey, let's 666 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 2: let's rename the Highway of Tears officially the Highway of hope, 667 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: when activists and supporters like Gladys Raddick were like, no, well, 668 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: we are definitely not there yet a lot of these 669 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: cases are not solved. There's not much traction. Still like, 670 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: it's ridiculous and we're not going to do that. But 671 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 2: hopefully someday it will reach that status, you know. Yeah, 672 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 2: So until then, that's the Highway of Tears. Here at 673 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: stuff you should know, we say rest in peace to 674 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 2: all the victims, and we hope peace can come to 675 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 2: all of their families who have to live with this 676 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 2: and the ongoing frustration of not getting the help they need. 677 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 2: And since I said all that, it's time for a listener, ma'am. 678 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to call this mushroom fruit. And this is 679 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 1: from Mike. 680 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 3: Hey, guys, I'm a mushroom farmer from Saint Louis and 681 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 3: thought I needed to write in and give Josh some 682 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 3: bad news. Listening to the Catacombs episode. The mushroom, guys, 683 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 3: is the fruit of its organism. The plant that it 684 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 3: has grown from is called mycilium there. Furthermore, not all 685 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 3: fungi produce fruit aka mushrooms. If you or your family 686 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 3: use mushrooms and supplement form like mushroom powder or something 687 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 3: like that, be sure to look for made with fruiting 688 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 3: bodies only on the packaging or something of that nature. 689 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 3: A lot of manufacturers are using myciliated grain without any 690 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 3: mushrooms to make these products. It's like going to the 691 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 3: grocery store for apples and leaving with most of an 692 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 3: apple tree. There's a lot more to that discussion, but 693 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 3: at the moment, and with the current data, I say 694 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 3: that if it advertises mushrooms, then it needs to have mushrooms. 695 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 3: I've included some picks of the farm and my fur babies. 696 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 3: If you come to Saint Louis, please come to the 697 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 3: farm for a tour. And there are some great pictures 698 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 3: of these beautiful fruiting mushrooms. One terribly lazy, looks like golden, 699 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 3: long haired Golden retriever type laying with a candy cane 700 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 3: and a awful, terrible tabby cat laying on a box 701 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 3: as cats do. 702 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 2: Very nice. That was a very mean email. Who is that, Mike? 703 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: That's Mike. 704 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 2: But I get your point, Mike, and I appreciate that 705 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 2: because I've been studiously avoiding any mushroom supplement that has 706 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 2: the word fruiting on it. So maybe I should just 707 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: bite the bullet. 708 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: You know. 709 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 2: I can put a piece of like electrical tape over 710 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 2: that part and just take the supplements as needed. 711 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, bite the mushroom. 712 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Mike and get in 713 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 2: touch with us and turn my stomach, you can do that. 714 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 2: Send us an email to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com. 715 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 716 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 717 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.