1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A tiny baby girl goes 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: missing when her parents are murdered. What happened to Baby Holly? 3 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 4 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: one eleven. First of all, taking listen to our friends 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: at KPRC. Holly Marie Klaus, the baby girl, along with 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: her parents, Harold Deane and Tina Lynn, vanished in nineteen 8 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: eighty one. The remains of the couple were found somewhere 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: on Wallaceville Road in dorotheast Harris County, but they were 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: not identified until last year when investigators used genetic testing. 11 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: On Thursday, investigators revealed Holly was left at a church 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: in Arizona and taken into care. But there was two 13 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: women who identified themselves as members of a nomadic religious 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: group who brought Holly to the church. They were wearing 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: white robes and they were barefoot. They indicated the beliefs 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: of their religion included the separation of male and female members, 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: practicing vegetarian habits, and not using or wearing leather goods. 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: The women indicated they had given up a baby before 19 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: at a laundromatt. This sounds straight out of a mystery novel. 20 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: The parents are murdered, the baby disappears, then she's basically 21 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: left by people wearing robes and barefoot? Is this real? 22 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: With me and All Star panel to make sense of 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: what we know right now? James Salnutt twenty seven years metro, 24 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: major case and swat now lawyer at Shalnut Law Firm. 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry Schwartz for psychologists specializing and criminal law. She 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: wrote Where Law and Psychology Intersect and Criminal Behavior. Cheryl McCollum, 27 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: Founder Director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Jeffrey M. Jensen, 28 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: Professor Forensic Pathology, Director of Autopsy and Forensic Services, University 29 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: Michigan Medical School. You can find him at j M 30 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: Jensen at gmail dot com. Colleen Fitzpatrick, President, founder of IdentiFinders, 31 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: President and founder of IdentiFinders International, and author of Forensic Genealogy. 32 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: But first to Dave Matt Crime online dot com investigative reporter, Dave, 33 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: tell me what happened to the parents in this case? 34 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: You've got Harold Klaus Junior and his wife, Tina Klaus. 35 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: The family calls Harold Dean Klaus Junior, Tina Gelin. They 36 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: were in a WorldWind romance in the mid late seventies. 37 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: They got married in nineteen seventy nine Juna seventy nine. 38 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: They had a pregnancy right off the bat and had 39 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: baby Holly. They moved from Florida, where all their family 40 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: lived out to Texas to Louisville, Texas in nineteen eighty. 41 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: The last time the family had contact with Harold Dean 42 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: Klaus and Tina Gael Lynn was in October of nineteen eighty. 43 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 1: They had a lot of contact until then, but then 44 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: all the contact ended. The next thing we know is 45 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: the first week of January, a dog, a hunting dog, 46 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: wanders out of the woods with a human arm in 47 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: its mouth, and of course that's when the police are 48 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: called and they find these two bodies. Okay, wait, let 49 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: me let me just right there. To Sheryl McCallum, Founder 50 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: Director Coal Case Research Institute, that's telling me a lot 51 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: about the killerers of Harold Klaus Junior and Tena, Klaus's wife. 52 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: They're murdered and they're left out in the woods, their 53 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: bodies only foul in. A hunting dog retrieves a human arm. 54 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: What does that tell you about the killers? Well, I 55 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: believe they were buried, so it tells me that this 56 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: took some time to bury two people. I believe the 57 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: gentleman was bound and gagged still and beaten to death, 58 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: and the female victim was strangled. So again it indake 59 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: indicates to me it might have been more than one person. 60 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: I've always believed it was more than one person to 61 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: overcome to adults. And you've got the man bludgeoned dead 62 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: and the woman strangled, two different modes of death. Now, 63 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: of course, to doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, you often hear, wow, 64 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't fit this. Let's just say serial killer because 65 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: it's a different modus operandi, method of operation. But that's 66 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: not necessarily true. We see serial killers deviate from their 67 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: normal emma. So that doesn't mean that there were two people. 68 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: But it's highly suspect. I think there was more than 69 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: one killer. Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. Serial killers 70 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: usually don't travel impacts, that's true, so it is highly 71 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: likely there's more than one killer. But you're correct, they 72 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: do sometimes change up their modus operanda. I'm looking at 73 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: the two victims right now with their baby, Harold Deane 74 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: and Tina Gael Klaus. Here they are pictured together with 75 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: their daughter, Holly Marie. At that time, she was one 76 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: years old. Their found dad murdered in a wooded area Houston, 77 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: Texas at the time, their identities unknown to Jeffrey Jensen, 78 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: Professor Forensic Pathology at Michigan Medical School University of Michigan 79 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: Medical School. What do you make the modes of murder? Well, 80 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: as we've discussed on multiple occasions on your show, multiple 81 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: modes are types of injury inflicted on individuals can give 82 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: a clearly as to the mental intentions of the assailants, 83 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: even the victims in some cases. So in this case, 84 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: it looks like there's multiple and varying modalities of death 85 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: on both the victims, including the evidence of bondage and 86 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: possibly torture. So I would agree with this kind of 87 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: of injury pattern. I would suspect that there would be 88 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: multiple individuals involved, and not only that. Dave Matt with 89 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: me Crime online dot Com invest to get a reporter 90 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: the people that murdered this young couple, these parents, his 91 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: mother and father, actually bring the car back to Florida 92 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: and try to extort money from Donna. Is that true? 93 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: Explain that for me? Okay, Nancy, that's partially true. We 94 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: don't know who murdered Dean and Tina. That is still 95 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: an unsolved murder. What we do have is an odd 96 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: group of religious people out of what appears to be 97 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: Christ's family, a group that was led by a man, 98 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: Charles McHugh. This is a group of people who a 99 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: woman named Sister Susan called the family of Dean Klaus 100 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: from California and offered up to give them back their 101 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight AMC concord vehicle in exchange for a 102 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Oh well, white, white, the concord belonged to 103 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: Harold Klaus and Tina. Actually, yes, it was their vehicle, 104 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: but it was actually in the name of his mother, 105 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: I believe. Okay, take a listen to what we know. 106 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: This is the Texas First Assistant Attorney General, Brent A. Webster, 107 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: Do you return car belonged to Dean's mother and was 108 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: in fact the car that they had in their possession. 109 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: And this is the description of the vehicle. It's in 110 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, two door red burgundy AMC concord. Tina 111 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: len Klaus and Harold Dean Klaus were likely murdered between 112 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: December nineteen eighty or early January nineteen eighty one. Their 113 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: bodies were found off of Wallaceville Road in Harris County, Texas, 114 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: and this was between January sixth and January eleventh of 115 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one. They were last heard from by their 116 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: families in late October nineteen eighty and they had been 117 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: living in Louisville, Texas in October of nineteen eighty around 118 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: that time. So you've got Harold Junior and Tina Klaus 119 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: murdered and left in the woods. One's bludge and dead, 120 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: the woman, Tina is strangled dead. Then you've got this 121 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: so called religious group turning up trying to make money 122 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: off the dead couple's car, basically holding the car for ransom, saying, 123 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: if you give me a thousand dollars, I'll give you 124 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: a car back. Is that right? No, Actually, Nancy, they 125 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: didn't know that Dean and Tina were dead. Their bodies 126 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: were not identified. The bodies were found in the woods. 127 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they didn't know. I'm saying that these 128 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: two are murdered and left in the woods, and then 129 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: the so called religious group just happens to have the 130 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: car of the dead couple, trace it back to the 131 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: owners in Florida and try to sell it back to 132 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: the owners. Yes to a degree, because in reality, Dean's 133 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: sister Brenda, said that Dean had become infatuated with a 134 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: cult and that that's where he met Tina. Then this 135 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: religious group shows up and they claim that that Dean 136 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: and Tina have joined their group, that they're getting rid 137 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: of all of their possessions, and if Dean's family wants 138 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: the car back, they'll bring it to them for a 139 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. How is that any different from what I 140 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: just said, because they first of all, they don't the 141 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 1: religious group that has the vehicle. Okay, they're not allowing 142 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: Dean's family to talk to Dean and Tina. They're going 143 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: on a lie. The family now believes that Tina, that 144 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: Tina and Dean have joined this religious cult and that 145 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: they can buy the car back. They don't know that 146 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: Tina and Dean are dead. Yeah, and anyway, that's where 147 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: it is. So maybe it was exactly what you said 148 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: and I just misunderstood. I actually think it's exactly what 149 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: we're both saying. Okay, they say, we'll get your car 150 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: back to you for a thousand dollars because we don't 151 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: believe in possessions, but you can have the car for 152 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: a thousand dollars. Yeah, okay. And the family says, we 153 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: want to talk to Tina and Dean, and they said, 154 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: well no, and so that's when dean family called the 155 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: cops when they met to get the car. That made 156 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: perfect sense to me. Did it make perfect sense to you, 157 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: James shell nutt perfect sense to me? Okay, Cheryl McCollum, 158 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: it does make sense to me. You know, versions of 159 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: the truth are not mutually exclusive. Everything Dave mac just 160 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: said is correct, and I believe what I said was 161 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: correct too. Give me your spin. I also find it now. 162 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: I know cults very often will not let the debutes 163 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: talk to their families. So is that why they wouldn't 164 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: let them talk to the family or is it because 165 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: they knew they were dead? Well, I believe it's because 166 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: they were already dead, because Dean stops writing letters to 167 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: his mom in October of you know, nineteen eighty and 168 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: I think eighty one is when this sister Susan is 169 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: trying to sell the car back to his family. So 170 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: it's ironic to me when they say that the men 171 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: and women are separated in this group because women drop 172 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: off the baby. Sister Susan's making the call, and then 173 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: this group of women go to meet the family to 174 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: give a carback. They are clearly protecting the men of 175 00:11:47,840 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: this group. Time Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, we 176 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: say that we believe Dean and Tina joined the cult 177 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: in October of eighty one. There's this picture of them 178 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: in their own home, we think with baby Holly, which 179 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: is the point of all this. Baby Holly goes missing, 180 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: and they have on regular clothes in their own home 181 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: and they're not in a cult in January of nineteen 182 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: eighty one based on this photo, So they would have 183 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: had to be approached by the cult, join the cult, 184 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: live with the cult, give up their car, all of 185 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: that by October. Is that possible? Is that what happened? 186 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: What about it? Doctor Sherry Schwartz. I mean, I suppose 187 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: it's possible, but it doesn't sound like from the evidence 188 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: that's available, right the picture, that that's what did happen. Right, 189 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: the family maybe believe that, I'm interested to know why 190 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: would they believe that these two joined up with the cult. 191 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: But also one of the things that they think of 192 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: is the Manson family victims. If it was in fact 193 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: the cult involved in this murder, certainly weren't members of 194 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: the Manson family right now, what were you telling me, 195 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: Dave Matt You said that Harold as you're calling him 196 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: Dan Dan Klaus Junior, had been involved in a cult 197 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: before he met Tina. That is according to his sister, 198 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: Debbie Brooks. She said that Harold had been involved in 199 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: a religious sect slash cult in the nineteen seventies. He 200 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: then became infatuated with Tina after returning from what Debbie 201 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: called a misadventure with that group. Okay, is this the 202 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: cult that had and handed over baby Holly? Experts say 203 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: there's a nine out of ten chance that the nomadic 204 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: Christ's family, whose child molester leader convinced followers to give 205 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: up their children, had the little girl after her parents 206 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: were killed. Take a listen to our friends at KPRC two. 207 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: Authority say. Back in nineteen eighty one, the families of 208 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: Tina Lynn and Harold Deane received a phone call from 209 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: someone in California who said she was sister Susan. She 210 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: wanted to return Tina and Dean's car in exchange for money. 211 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: She further stated that Tina and Dean had joined their 212 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: religious group and no longer wanted to have contact with 213 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: their families. They were also giving up all of their 214 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: possessions and from their investigators said Sister Susan met with 215 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: the family at the Daytona Racetrack in Florida. That's when 216 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: investigators said that they were took in two at least 217 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: two to three women and a man in custody. But 218 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: right now they're still looking for a police report and 219 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: they are asking anyone of the had any information to 220 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: contact the Texas Attorney General's office. So Sister Susan and 221 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: others from this so called Christ's Family cult show up 222 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: at the Daytona Racetrack to hand over the car. Did 223 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: anybody mention, Okay, here's the car, where's the baby? Dave Mack? 224 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: Not that we know of. All we know is that 225 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: whatever answers these people gave to the family was not 226 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: sufficient enough for them, you know, to keep moving without 227 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: looking into everything. They called the police, and that's the 228 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: thing that was said in that report. A police report 229 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: was made out at the time, in nineteen eighty one, 230 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: but they can't find it now. Ah, and the women 231 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: were not detained. Okay, I don't understand that at all. 232 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: So the women and a man were taken into custody 233 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: because they had the couple's car, but they were let go. 234 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: I guess that was founded on the belief that Dane 235 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Harold Junior had actually joined the cult because he had 236 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: been with the cult in the past. Is that right, 237 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: Dave Mac? That's what it appears to be, Nancy. So 238 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: what can you tell us, start to Sherry Schwartz about 239 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: giving up all your possessions and cutting off contact with 240 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: your family when you join a cult. Is that true? 241 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: That does seem to be how it goes, because everything 242 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: goes to the cult leader. And when people join up 243 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: with the cult, they typically don't join up because they 244 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: believe in the cause, They believe in the leader. They 245 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: want to please the leader, so everything that they do 246 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: is for whatever the leader said. And I understand that 247 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: the families that join this cult were told to quote, 248 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: get rid of the baby, hand the babies over to 249 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: the cult. What do we know about that, Dave Mac? Well, 250 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: we know that this is a claim from the women 251 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: that actually had given the baby over to a church 252 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: in Arizona, where they actually admitted, or claimed or bragged 253 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: about dropping another baby off previously at a laundromatt. Now 254 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: I understand the great really would stay count in public. 255 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: They were white robes, went barefoot, aid a vegetarian diet, 256 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: separated men and women, and shunned animal products. What can 257 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: you tell me about the leader of the cult known 258 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: as Lightning Amen, who was convicted two thousand and three 259 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: of annoying or molesting a child? What do you know 260 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: about him? Dave matt or Cheryl McCollum Garrol. You probably 261 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: know more from a legal standpoint of it, Nancy. I 262 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: was looking at it from a religious standpoint of what 263 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: this man, Charles McHugh he actually made His name was 264 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: Lightning Amen. That's who his followers were told to call him. 265 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: He claimed to be God's representative, and like most cult leaders, 266 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: he would twist and turn the words from the Bible 267 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: to proving that he was the God's representative on earth. 268 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: They had to listen to and he directed every movement 269 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: of the cult, what they wore, what they ate, and 270 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: where they went. Well. He was also convicted for selling 271 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: and distributing meth amphetamines and things like that. It is 272 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: not uncommon for religious groups to be a cover for 273 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: criminal activity, and a lot of times these leaders, whether 274 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: they're sexually assaulting people or you know, growing and selling 275 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: drugs or whatever it is they're doing, the religious component 276 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: is a great cover because a lot of times they 277 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about taxes, they don't have to 278 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: worry about different things, and they can get followers so easily, 279 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: and then of course manipulate them, which looks like this 280 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: is what he was doing. Can I tell a little 281 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: bit more about I've learned about this cult. They grew 282 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: and you used openly marijuana and called it quote God's tranquilizer. 283 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: They encouraged the use of drugs, and the men would 284 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: wear diapers on their heads like turbans. So they have 285 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: the baby, they've got the car, But I'm supposed to 286 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: believe somebody else killed dan An. Tina Klaus h to 287 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: Jeffrey and Jensen, Professor forensic Pathology, Director of Autopsy Services, 288 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: University of Michigan Medical School. What do you make of that? 289 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: So they've got the baby, maybe Holly, they've got the 290 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: deck the murdered couple's car. Yet I don't know. I'm 291 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: supposed to believe they didn't kill the couple, right, And 292 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: you know when we've when we have connections with the 293 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: infants and um, either victim, other victims, adult victims, or 294 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: adult perpetrators. UM, there's it's always a kind of a 295 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: complex connection. You may have cases where the actual parents 296 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: buries their child alive, or you may have incidences where 297 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: the child is basically discarded, either alive or dead, in 298 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: order to avoid uh you know, arrest. So a child 299 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: with a perpetrator becomes a very confusing and complicated scenario. 300 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: So I forgot to throw in the dope. You've got 301 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: Lightning Amen not his real name, who claims to be 302 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: christ convicted of a child abuse. His cult has the 303 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: car of the dead people, his cult has the baby, 304 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: and he encourages the production, sell, and use of drugs. 305 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: And he's not the killer or connected to the killer. 306 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: Dave Mack, you were the one that was so stridently 307 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: defending the cult at the get go. What about that? Okay, 308 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: just to be clear, I wasn't defending the cult, merely 309 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: pointing out there you are. I'm not about to defend 310 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: these wackos. These Thankfully this cult disbanded after Lightning McQueen 311 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: Amen actually when he was busted on the Lightning McQueen 312 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: is actually a character. Yeah, okay, it's a fake car 313 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: that goes on races with mad Aka two Mader. So 314 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: interesting to note that back in May of nineteen eighty 315 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,719 Speaker 1: the Washington Post did an expose on this group about 316 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: Lightning Amen and talked about some of the things that 317 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: they did. He actually was convicted in nineteen eighty seven 318 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: on gun charges at that point, and he claimed that 319 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: the group had disbanded two years previously. I think it's 320 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: an obvious connection that the people with the car are 321 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: the people that killed the couple. But the issue here 322 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: again is that they were not identified. At this point. 323 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: The family still believes that Harold, Dean and Tina are 324 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: living a religious life with the cult. They aren't. They 325 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: don't believe they're dead. They don't know this. Wow, okay, 326 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: speaking of that, take a listen to Claire Metz at 327 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: WSH two. You'd see someone in the store as that junior, 328 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, but it never was. Of course, they knew 329 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: nothing of their loved ones. Then last year they learned 330 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: the bodies of a couple found murdered near Houston back 331 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty one, were Junior and his wife Tina. 332 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: It's very heartbreaking, Moie, that they had been killed that 333 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: long ago and we never knew it. You know, good 334 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: bodies just dumped into woods. Genetic genealogy linked the murder 335 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: victims to their families, but baby Holly wasn't with the remains. 336 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: I'm trying to engauge James shell nutt you and I've 337 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: dealt with a lot of crime victims. The emotions this 338 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: family went through for all these years they think their 339 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: own relatives and basically turned their backs on them, joined 340 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: a cult, and we're ever heard from again ever, only 341 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: to find out decades later they were murdered. In fact, 342 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: Dean was bound before he was murdered, which tells me 343 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: he tried to fight back. I mean, crime victims' families 344 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: haven't bad enough much less to go all those years, 345 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: probably angry that Dan and Tina had left the family 346 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: and had no contact with them, only to find out 347 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: they had been murdered. All this time. Oh, it's almost 348 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: like they'd lost them twice, right. They lost them the 349 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: first time when they lost connection with them, when they 350 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: felt like they were abandoned, and then now they have 351 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: these feelings of guilt that maybe they didn't look a 352 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: little bit harder, didn't push a little bit harder of 353 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: the years for police to open up a real missing 354 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: person's investigation, and then now they wound up dead and 355 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: they're suddenly probably planning an immemorial service they've addictimized several 356 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: times every day. You know, I agree with Sheryl MC. 357 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: I think I shared this with you. At one point 358 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: after Keith's murderer, my fiance's murder, I would have nightmares 359 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: that he really hadn't been murdered. He just went away 360 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: and didn't want me to know. And in the dream 361 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to comprehend that right before our wedding, 362 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: he would just leave, and it was a horrible dream. 363 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: And then when you'd wake up, you'd realize that it 364 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: was even worse than he really was murdered. But in 365 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: that dream, in those moments, and I would have it repeatedly, 366 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: the abandonment of just someone you love deeply turning their 367 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: back on you. So all these years, Cheryl, that's what 368 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: the family thought that Dean Junior and Tina had just 369 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: of course said screw you and left with this cult 370 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: because he had shown interest in the past, and I 371 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: think shell Nut's onto something as far as just the 372 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: overall guilt and horrible experience of not losing them once. 373 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: But then there's the aspect of the baby. The baby 374 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: was not with them, so they have no idea. Now, 375 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: did animals drag the baby off? Did the people keep 376 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: the baby as something horrible happening to the baby at 377 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: another location? So now they have that to deal with. 378 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 1: Two on top of knowing that these two young people. 379 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: Oh dear Lord, you're right. Think about a doctor, Sherry Schwartzo, 380 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: you're the forensic psychologist. All these years, the families of 381 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: Dean Junior and Tina think, well, they chose to leave us, 382 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: they didn't love us enough. They've chosen their own life, 383 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: and they've left with baby Holly. Then they find out 384 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: Tina and Dean have been murdered when a dog shows 385 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: up with Dean's arm for Pete's sake, and they have 386 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: no idea where baby Holly is. I mean, that's hell 387 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: on earth, doctor, Yes it is. And imagine how they've 388 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: lived with the trauma over the years. And now it's 389 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: compounded because not only were they find out they're murdered, 390 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: but brutally murdered such that there's body parts floating around 391 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: right and where is the baby? And now even beating 392 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: themselves up more? Why didn't we do more? When in 393 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: reality there's really not much they could have done. I mean, 394 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: they were told relatives of Dan and Tina that they 395 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: joined the cult. They gave up all of their earthly possessions, 396 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: including that car for one thousand dollar donation. The relatives 397 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: could get it back and did not want to be contacted. 398 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: But then years later, twenty twenty one, they are contacted 399 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: that two bodies had been discovered in Houston and enter 400 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: DNA technology. Take a listen to our friends inside a 401 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: Forty two years ago, Tina and Dean Klaus and their 402 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: infant daughter Holly vanished without a trace. The year was 403 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty and that was the last time their families 404 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: ever heard from them. Tina, Dean and baby Holly had 405 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: simply disappeared. Where were they? Were they even alive? Nobody knew. 406 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: Three months later, the bodies of a man and woman 407 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: were discovered badly beaten and dumped in the woods outside Houston. 408 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: The man was bound and gagged, but woman had been strangled. 409 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: They were never identified until now using modern DNA technology. 410 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: They did have some remains that have been kept aside. 411 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: We took pieces of those and extracted DNA from them. 412 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: What did you find? What we found was the people 413 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: that they were related to. And so I picked up 414 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: the phone and called someone that we knew was related 415 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: to these victims and asked them if they had ever 416 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: had missing family members and they immediately said yes. Time 417 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now. DNA expert 418 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: Colleen Fitzpatrick, President, founder of IdentiFinders International, author of forensic genealogy. 419 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: You can find her at Identifyinders, not identifier but identififinders 420 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Colleen Fitzpatrick, please explain, and please speak in 421 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: regular people talk so I can understand what you're saying. 422 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: How did this happen? And noticeably the baby's body was 423 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: never found, but we do find the bodies of two adults. 424 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: How did it happen? Well, Nancy, what happened is we 425 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: had just received a great from Audio Chock to do 426 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: several cases using genetic genealogy, and one of our genealogists, 427 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: mister Gillis, had spotted this couple which seemed to go together. 428 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: They had already been DNA tested and they showed they 429 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: were not related, so but they could be married. So 430 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: we took those cases and it took several months to 431 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: get the DNA analyzed and in shape. And then there 432 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: you get the DNA when the body's been skeletonized. Oh well, 433 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: you send the bone to an extraction lab and there's, um, 434 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, very very good ways of you know, extracting 435 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: the DNA from the bone matrix because DNA is hiding 436 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: in the bones, and of course there's a chemical analysis 437 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: that can pull it out. How difficult is that, um, well, 438 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: for remains that are in good shape. Yeah, it's not 439 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: that difficult at all. It's done every day. Extraction is 440 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: done by bones. I think we use the bones, but 441 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: you can also extract of course from seamen, from blood, 442 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: from tissue samples. In this case, we had a couple 443 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: of bone specimens sent to our lab in very old remains. 444 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: I mean we've worked on cases from the fifties. We 445 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: have a case in the thirties and that requires ancient 446 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: DNA analysis similar to what you use for bummies. Wow, okay, 447 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: I've got to write that down. Ancient DNA analysis. Is 448 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: that what you used to said? I sure did, and 449 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: that's used for, for instance, Egyptian mummies. Yeah, that's used 450 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: for you know, it's even been used for caveman. I 451 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: could listen to you talk all day long. Okay, let 452 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: me understand. When you extract DNA from say an arm, 453 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: a skeletonized arm, do you scrape along the surface of 454 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: the bone or do you have to go into the 455 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: center of the bone and get bone marrow? Is that 456 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: where you getting bone arrow from the center of the bone? Well, 457 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: my understanding, By then the marrow is gone, it's just 458 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: the matrix to the bone itself. The bone is cleaned, 459 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, so it's not there's no contamination from the environment, 460 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: is clean with ultra violet light and other chemical protocols. 461 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: And then the bone is drilled and then it's ground 462 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: into a powder. And the powder has a lot of 463 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: surface area, and that you know, allows the DNA to 464 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: be pulled out of that chemically. Okay, Colleen Fitzpatrick, I 465 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: believe I asked you to dummy down for me. Could 466 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: you at least say that a little bit more slowly? Okay? Okay, 467 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: start with the bone being cleaned. Did you say with 468 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: ultra violet light? Yeah, because you don't want to have 469 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: contamination around. You don't want the surfaces. You know, surface 470 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: has been in the soil, it's been probably handled, and 471 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: so the first thing you do is clean it so 472 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,239 Speaker 1: that when you get the DNA out of it, the 473 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: DNA belongs to the person that owns the bone. It does, 474 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: it's not the person handling it. You know, it's clean. 475 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: And so you drill in the bone and you get 476 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: DNA from it. But what does ultra violet light have 477 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: to do with it? It kills germs, it kills that terror. Ah, yes, okay, right, 478 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: then you drill in, you and then you grind that 479 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: portion of the bone down to powder, and from that 480 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: you extract the DNA. Yeah, you either drill it or 481 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: you section the bone, and then you grind it into powder. 482 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: And then there's a chemical process of you know, dissolving 483 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: the bone and then the DNA's left behind. Okay. So 484 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: that and then once you get the DNA, I assume 485 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: that you enter it into the DNA data bank to 486 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: see if it matches anyone missing or dead. Otherwise you 487 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: have to pull paul holes as I say, like in 488 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: Golden State Killer and do genetic genealogy way back to 489 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: the Great Great great great grandpa, grandma, and come all 490 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: the way down to present day Ancy who was living 491 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: in the area, who traveled to the area, and start 492 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: calling them. But in this case, how did you connect 493 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: how was it connected to the relatives? Well, Nancy, we 494 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 1: did the same thing that Paul did. You know, we 495 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: did genetic genealogy. So you have the DNA and you know, typically, 496 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, the law enforcement will send a DNA to 497 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: a lab, they will make a profile, they will upload 498 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: it to codis and look for matches. Well, we do 499 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: the same thing. We have the DNA, we send it 500 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: to our lab, we generate a profile, and we upload 501 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: it to the database using it looking for matches, except 502 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: we use a different profile, different database, and different kind 503 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: of matches, but it's the same process. In the end, 504 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: we come up with a list of people that are related. 505 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: We call them DNA cousins. They share DNA with our 506 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: unknown and it's like a big Sudoku puzzle because you 507 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: may have a first cousin, a second cousin, second cousin 508 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: once removed, a great nephew, and you take those people 509 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: and what we do is basically keep rearranging them in 510 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: a way until there's the only one way. It makes sense, 511 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: like a Sudoku puzzle, and the missing piece is the 512 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: person you're trying identify as Anybody ever told you, Colleen 513 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: Fitzpatrick that you're brilliant because I could listen to you 514 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: all day long. Where were you when I was trying 515 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: DNA cases? Because anybody that can compare this to sudoku 516 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: and it makes sense and I can understand it. Look, 517 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm a JD. I'm not a brilliant scientist like you 518 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: and so many other people on this panel, and I 519 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: don't expect gerrs to be. But you just made that 520 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: so understandable. So now we have the two dead bodies. 521 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: Now we know they're Tina and Dean Junior. The relatives 522 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: are contact and they're like, well what about baby Holly. 523 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen now to Texas First Assistant Age Brent Webster. 524 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: In late December nineteen eighty or early January nineteen eighty one, 525 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: the families of Tina Linklaus and Harold Dean Klaus received 526 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: a phone call from someone identifying herself as sister Susan, 527 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: who explained she was calling from Los Angeles, California, and 528 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: wanted to return Tina and Dean's car to their family. 529 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: She further stated that Tina and Dean had joined their 530 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: religious group and no longer wanted to have contact with 531 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: their families. They were also giving up all of their possessions. 532 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: Sister Susan asked for money in exchange for returning the 533 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: car to Florida, where the family lived. The family agreed, 534 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: but contacted the local authorities about the situation. The family 535 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: agreed to meet Sister Susan at the Daytona Racetrack in Florida. 536 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: The family described eating two to three women and possibly 537 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: went mail and once again these women were wearing robes 538 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: and to appeared to be members of this religious group. 539 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: So Dave Matt find I've got the car, but did 540 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: the same Sister Sarah indicate where's baby Holly. No, she 541 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: didn't tell the family in Florida anything other than that 542 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: Dean and tinead no longer wanted any contact with them. 543 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: But we know that baby Holly was upped off by 544 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: women wearing the same type of robe barefooted. They dropped 545 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: baby Holly off at a church in Arizona. Take a 546 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: listen again to Assistant Attorney General Brent Webster, baby Holly 547 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: was left at church in Arizona and was taken into 548 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: their care. Two women who identified themselves as members of 549 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: a nomadic religious group brought Holly to the church. They 550 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: were wearing white robes and they were barefoot. They indicated 551 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: the beliefs of their religion included the separation of male 552 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: and female members, practicing vegetarian habits, and not using or 553 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: wearing leather goods. The women indicated they had given up 554 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: a baby before at a laundromat. It is believed that 555 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: this particular group traveled around southwestern United States, including Arizona, California, 556 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: and possibly Texas. There were sightings of this religious group 557 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: around the Yuma, Arizona area in the early eighties. The 558 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: women members would be seen around town at various points 559 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: asking for food. Then, after four decades, a miraculous twist 560 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: in the case. Listen to collaborative efforts of the Texas 561 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: Attorney General's Office Cold Case and Missing Person's Unit, the 562 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 1: Louisville Police Department, the Volusia County Sheriff's Office in Florida, 563 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: the Arizona Attorney General's Office, the Harris County's Sheriff's Office, 564 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children I'm 565 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: excited to announce that baby Holly has been located, alive 566 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: and well, forty two years later. I also am happy 567 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: to announce that the National Center for Missing and Exploited 568 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: Children have offered and will be paying for Holly to 569 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: be reunited in person with the Lynn and Klaus families. 570 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: Holly has been notified of the identities of her biological 571 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: parents and got to meet her extended biological for the 572 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: family for the first time this Tuesday. They hope to 573 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: meet in person soon in Nickmick, the National Center from 574 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: Missing his player of Children, is going to facilitate that meeting. 575 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: And now take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. 576 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: After all these years, the mystery of what happened to 577 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: Tina and Dean was finally resolved. But what about Baby Holly? 578 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: Could she still be alive? This week we finally know 579 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: the astonishing truth. I'm excited to announce that baby Holly 580 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: has been located, alive and well, and here she is 581 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: now forty two years old and living in Oklahoma. She's 582 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: a mom of five kids and can you believe it, 583 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: she's also a grandmother. What happened to Baby Holly is 584 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: still being pieced together it seems that the people who 585 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: killed her parents spared her life and brought her to Arizona, 586 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: where they abandoned her on the steps of a church. 587 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: A loving family who belonged to the church took Holly 588 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: in and raised her as their own, not knowing her 589 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: parents had been slain. Straight out to Jeffrey Jensen, what 590 00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: about a doctor, Well, this is a fortunately the best 591 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,919 Speaker 1: outcome that could occur with a tragedy like this. And 592 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: recently there's been the development of the National Unidentified and 593 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: Missing Persons Format Investigative software system that allows medical examiners 594 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: and corners the ability to do identifications on these missing persons. 595 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: It also allows the family to input valuable identification data 596 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: that will assist the medical examiners in making these identifications. 597 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 1: It's amazing to you, shall Nut. I don't know how 598 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: such a happy offshet could occur from a double homicide. 599 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: This is a miracle for this baby to have actually 600 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: survived all these years, never knowing who her parents were, 601 00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,879 Speaker 1: never being connected with her biorelatives. Yet baby Holly survived. 602 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,239 Speaker 1: It is a miracle God had his hand on her. 603 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: You know how many times have we talked about the 604 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: longer something goes on. The worst outcome is when it 605 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,439 Speaker 1: comes to missing persons and missing children. But I'll also 606 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: tell you something else. This case is not over. There 607 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: is still a chance to solve these murders. They know 608 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: who the leader of this cult was. These people were 609 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: obviously well known and well document and these articles written 610 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: on them, they can go back and identify these people. 611 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: They need to start conducting interviews and they need to 612 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 1: dedicate some manpower to this and get this murder solved. 613 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: That would be the ultimate closure for the family, to 614 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: get this child back, who's now a grown woman, but 615 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: to also have justice for these two murdered family members. Yeah, 616 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: I'm so happy we found Holly, but I'm not letting 617 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: go of the murders. Take a listen to the sistant age. 618 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: If you have any information regarding these murders, we ask 619 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: that you come forward, even if it's a piece of 620 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: information that may not be concrete evidence. We need to 621 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: find pieces of the puzzle to solve this crime. The 622 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: Texas AG's Office col's Case Unit and the law enforcement 623 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: agencies that work with us are committed to bringing justice 624 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: in this case. We wish Holly the best. We're grateful 625 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: that we found her, but we must continue with our 626 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: purpose of finding who murdered this couple. Colleen Fitzpatrick way in. 627 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: You know, it isn't an open homicide investigation right now, 628 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: and should there not be a code is hit, you know, 629 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: to the DNA. We could certainly try and solve it 630 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: using forensic genealogy, just the way we solve the you know, 631 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: the identification of the clouds, you know, Dan and Tina Claus. 632 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: You could do the same thing to solve the murders. 633 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,839 Speaker 1: So we'd be very open to helping with that. And 634 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: now what we need DNA from the killer off the 635 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: bodies in order to do that, well, yeah, we would 636 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: need to look at the evidence and get the DNA 637 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: from the close or the tape or the the bodies themselves. 638 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: Of course, you have to use DNA from the crime 639 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: scene to you know, to do ID DNA identification, So 640 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, I'd hope there'd be something like that or 641 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: the evidence is being researched absolutely, and that tape is 642 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: a very good conduit for DNA. If you have information 643 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 1: about this double homicide or think you do, please call 644 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: five one two four sixty three twenty one hundred repeat 645 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: five one two four sixty three, twenty one hundred