1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: On a Saturday afternoon in July of nineteen eighty two, 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: a young woman was walking home in Ashland, Virginia, when 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: she was approached by a man on a bicycle. He 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: offered to walk her home. She said no and kept walking, 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: but a few minutes later she saw the man again. 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: He attacked her and dragged her to a secluded wooded area, 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: then beat and raped her over and over. The woman 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: later described her attacker to police as a light skinned 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: black man with short, kinky hair. She also told them 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: something he'd said while assaulting her that he had had 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: quote other white girls. Officer Roy Anderson knew of only 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: one black man in town with a white girlfriend, eighteen 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: year old Marvin Anderson. When police picked Marvin up a 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: few days later, he insisted he hadn't attacked that woman. 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: He had an alibi, and his mother and girlfriend backed 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: him up. But the victim picked out Marvin for I'm 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of photos police presented to her, and she 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: also identified him in a live lineup of other suspects. 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: All of that sealed Marvin's fate with a jury, who 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: sent him to prison for an unbelievable two hundred and 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: ten years. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction. I'm Ashley Fontce, sitting in for Jason Flahm. 23 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm an investigative reporter who's cover crime and police misconduct 24 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: for decades. I've also reported extensively on police bungling rape investigations, 25 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: and so I was very interested in this extraordinary and 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: outrageous story you're about to hear. I'd love for you 27 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: guys to introduce yourselves. Marvin, can you introduce yourself please? 28 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for having me. My name is Marvin Anderson. 29 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: I was born and raised in Hanover County, Virginia, and 30 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 2: I spent fifteen years incarcerated and five years on parole 31 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: for a crime and did not commit Thanks Marvin. 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: Vanessa can you introduce yourself please. 33 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 3: My name is Vanessa Podcas. I'm the director of Special 34 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: Litigation at the Innocence Project in New York City, and 35 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: over the course of the past two decades, I've helped 36 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: exonerate over forty people nationwide. 37 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: That's extraordinary, Vanessa. Thank you. Marvin. I've never been to 38 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: Hanover County. Take me back to your childhood in Hanover County. 39 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 2: It was a close knit community and African American people. 40 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: You know, everyone knew everyone. You know, my grandmother and 41 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: my great grandmother, all of them and my cousins were 42 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: all was you know, in the same community. And then 43 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: of course my mom and dad. I have three sisters. 44 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: I had one brother who had died in an accident 45 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: car accident when I was incarcerated. We all was close, 46 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: you know. We had a nice big yard where we 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: could run around and play. We had dogs, chickens, a 48 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: lot of things that we did growing up or was like, 49 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: you know, playing. 50 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: Sports and what sport did you play? 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: Marvin, baseball, football, basketball, softball, a little bit of everything. 52 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: You know, what sport didn't you play? 53 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: Marvin didn't play volleyball too much. I did run track, 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: so it wasn't much that I didn't really do. And 55 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: at the time I didn't live too far from a 56 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: volunteer fire department, so I spent a lot of my 57 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: time there. At the age of ten, I was always 58 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: at the fire station, you know, doing something, washing trucks, 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: watching the guys train. Not only was I learning something, 60 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: but it was a means of keeping me out of trouble. 61 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: So from that time I was able to join the 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: fire service at the age of thirteen. As a junior fireman, 63 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: I was able to train. I was to receive the 64 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: first set of five year I was able to ride 65 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: the trucks, learn how to pump the trucks, basically do 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: everything that adult farmer would do. The only thing that 67 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: I couldn't do was go into a burning building. 68 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: What do you think drew you to want to be 69 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: a firefighter? It's a very specific and demanding job. 70 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: My mom, my dad, my grandparents. You know, they taught 71 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: us if there's someone out there in need or help, 72 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: always give help in hand, regardless what color they were. 73 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 2: If you can help them, you help them. And for 74 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: the fire service, that was for me was a way 75 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: of helping people. 76 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: The fire station. You had black people who work there, 77 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: white people who worked there, a mixture of different ethnicities. 78 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: And what do you think that taught you as well? 79 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 4: That we all are equal? 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: Back then, racism existed, but I never really felt what 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: it was until I got arrested for my crime. You know, 82 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: most African American until to grow up knowing who they 83 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: can be around. When it came to racistm I just 84 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: knew people that didn't like my kind, but I knew 85 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: to stay away from them. I respected them, Whether they 86 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: respected me, that was on them. 87 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: According to census data, around fifty thousand people lived in 88 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: Hanover County in the early eighties. Out of those, forty 89 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: three thousand were white and less than seven thousand were black. So, Vanessa, 90 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: I want to turn to you now. Can you tell 91 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: us more about the racial climate in Hanover County at 92 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: this time? 93 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 3: Well, I think in general, it's important for people to understand, 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 3: you know, we're talking about nineteen eighty two, and if 95 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: we just go back twenty thirty years, we are in 96 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 3: the fifties and the sixties Virginia, and we are in 97 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 3: a period of racial segregation. This is before the Voting 98 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 3: Writes Act, or just within a decade and a half 99 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: of the assassination of Martin Luther King, and so it 100 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 3: may seem like, you know, that's far in America's history. 101 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 3: That was just a very brief period of time from 102 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: when we're talking about you know, when Marvin was eighteen 103 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: years old in Hanover, Virginia, you. 104 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: Had certain parts of the town where there's mostly you know, 105 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: African American people live in a certain part of the 106 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: town where it just only white people lived at But 107 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: I had to say this. I stood out in Nashville 108 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 2: because during that time my fiance was a white woman, 109 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: so that wasn't something that was well known or for 110 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: most white people during that time to get used to 111 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: seeing a black man with a white woman. Then look, 112 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: they would give us. It would burn a hole through a wall. 113 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: You know, how dare you? But as far as my people, 114 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: it's just two people dating. They accepted more than most 115 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: white people did. So kind of kept my distance, but 116 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: try to live a normal life as best as I could. 117 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: So at this point, you're eighteen years old. You and 118 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: your fiance have just moved from Richmond to Ashland, and 119 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: you're about to pursue your dream of becoming a full 120 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: fledged fireman. You must have felt like everything was going 121 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: your way more than. 122 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: The counter had just started the first fire program, Well 123 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: you could become a professional fireman, and I had just 124 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: signed up for it. It was supposed to start it 125 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: that fall. 126 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: And then on July seventeenth, nineteen eighty two, this incredibly 127 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: horrific crime happened in Ashland. Vanessa, What do we know 128 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: about what happened that day? 129 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 3: The victim in this case was walking home. She was 130 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: taking a shortcut through a wooded area of rural over 131 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 3: County and was approached by a man who rode up 132 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: to her on a bicycle, threatened her with a gun, 133 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 3: and proceeded to sexually assault her. And it was a 134 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: very brutal attack that lasted over the course of a 135 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 3: significant period of time, and when it was over, she 136 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: was taken to the hospital, a rape kit was collected, 137 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 3: her clothing was collected. The victim in this case was 138 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: a white woman, and she described the assailant as a 139 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 3: light skinned black man with a medium frame, short hair mustache, 140 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: And there weren't a lot of clues as to who 141 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 3: this person might be, but at some point she related 142 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: that the man who attacked her said that he quote 143 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 3: had a white girl, And so the officer started to think, Hm, 144 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: who in town could it be that's black that we 145 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: know that is in a relationship or involved with somebody 146 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 3: who's white. And there was only one black man in 147 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 3: town that the officer knew who was involved with a 148 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 3: white woman, and that was Marvin Anderson. 149 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: Marvin, Ashland was a pretty small, tight knit community. Like 150 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: you said, at the time, did you hear anything about 151 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: what had happened? 152 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: The crime actually took place on a Saturday, and that 153 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: Sunday I had a softball game, so some of the 154 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: teammates of minds, they was talking about what had happened. 155 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 2: And during that time, a few of my teammates knew 156 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: the perpetrator that committed this crime. 157 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 3: People knew about the crime itself because it had made 158 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 3: the news. But I think you know what's so remarkable 159 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 3: about Marvin's case is that from the beginning the community 160 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: was aware of who really had committed the crime. 161 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: Time and we'll talk about that more and who that 162 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: person was a little bit later, but first, Marvin, can 163 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: you tell us about the moment that you realized you 164 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: were a suspect in the case. 165 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: I was at work at the time. I worked at 166 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: Kingsmain part of my amusement park, and one of my 167 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 2: supervisors came down to my posts and said they needed 168 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 2: to see me in administration. And when I entered a room, 169 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: there was the officer that I knew, and I actually 170 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: called him by his first name. 171 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 4: I said, Hey, Roy, how you doing you know? And 172 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 4: he didn't say anything. 173 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: And this officer was someone you knew pretty well. 174 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: Knew him so well that I've actually had eaten dinner 175 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: at his dinner table with his kids. When I was 176 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: growing up, Roy kids plays sports, so of course we 177 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: met playing sports. So it wasn't like he didn't know me. 178 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: He knew me. 179 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: So these two officers, Roy Anderson and Marshall Bailey are 180 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: questioning you. 181 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: The other officers mostly did all the talking. And that's 182 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: when he started questioning about, you know, where was I 183 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: at on the seventeenth of July around six thirty seven 184 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: o'clock that afternoon. And I gave him an honest answer 185 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: and I said, hey, I could have been anywhere, which 186 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: is true. I could have been playing sports. I could 187 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: have been at the fire station. You know, I just 188 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: could have been anywhere. And he was asking about, you know, 189 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 2: would you be willing to take a polograph test and 190 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 2: the course I agree to do. 191 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: So, Marvin, throughout all of that experience where you're being questioned, 192 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: you're cooperating with them. Did you ever think I should 193 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: get a lawyer? 194 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 2: No, you know, not once doing that entire question and 195 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: even going down to the county lockup, did I think 196 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 2: about a lawyer? You know, because I knew I didn't 197 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: do what they said had happened. 198 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: You know, in cases like this. You know, you have Marvin, 199 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 3: he's eighteen years old. They're law enforcement from his community. 200 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 3: So they're people who you know, he's been raised to 201 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 3: give a certain amount of deference to and people that 202 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 3: he knows, and they're coming at him from a perspective of, 203 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 3: you know, we need your help in this investigation. And 204 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: so he's not thinking that people are out to get 205 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: him or that he is going to be railroaded for 206 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 3: something that he didn't do. And we see this in 207 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 3: wrongful conviction cases where people trust in the police, they 208 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: trust in the system, they trust in the process, and 209 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 3: are totally betrayed by it. 210 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: Vanessa, what do we know about Royan Marshall's training at 211 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: that time? Are they beat cops? How big was Ashln 212 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: Police department? 213 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 3: I don't really have the answers to that, but I 214 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 3: think that it's helpful they contextualize that. You know, we're 215 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: talking about very small towns, you know, a population of 216 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 3: around seven thousand, eight thousand people, you know, and when 217 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: you consider police forces in more rural areas, they're not 218 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: really trained or have experience often times in handling serious crimes. 219 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: And so when something like a rape or a murder 220 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: happens a lot of times. We see in wrongful conviction 221 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: cases that you have forces that just don't have the 222 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 3: training or experience to really go about these more serious investigations. 223 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: Right, So let's get back to that day. They didn't 224 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: end up doing the polygraph test, but there was a 225 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: photo array and a live lineup. 226 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: And the front of thing, I bought it. When I 227 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: first walked into that room, I saw a picture, a 228 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: photo of me in a pholo, and I knew I'd 229 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: never been in trouble, so I was just curious, how 230 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: did he get this photo of me? That photo was 231 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: my job id photo. 232 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 3: His picture was the only color photograph among other black 233 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 3: and white photographs that were mug shots, and so it's 234 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 3: a standout. While it's a photo array that has many choices, 235 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 3: in reality, because of the suggestiveness, there's only one right 236 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 3: choice of who the suspect is, and once that identification 237 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 3: was made from the photo, he's then put in an 238 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: in person lineup. And what's so problematic about this is 239 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 3: that he's the only person from the photo array who's 240 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 3: repeated in the in person lineup, and so it's it's 241 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 3: obvious who the suspect is when she sees the lineup, 242 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: and this is referred to in cases as unconscious transference. 243 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: You know, we don't know at this point is she 244 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: recognizing Marvin from the lineup or from the incident. 245 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: You know, my thought after the fact is that you know, 246 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: if someone has shown you a photo of a person, 247 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: regardless who that person may be, and within ten minutes 248 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: you see that same person standing directly at front you, 249 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: you're going to remember that phase of that photo. 250 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 4: And that's what happened, Vanessa. 251 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the rape kit for a moment. Where 252 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: was the rape kit tested and the significance of the zerology. 253 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: Of course, this is a era before we get to DNA. 254 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: At that time in sexual assault cases, the type of 255 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: testing that was used was called ABO blood typing, and 256 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 3: all it could do was include an individual among a 257 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 3: large relatively large percentage of the population that could have 258 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: been the source of biological evidence at a scene. So it 259 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 3: was flight years far less precise than DNA testing. The 260 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: victim in this case, after the sexual assault was taken 261 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: to the hospital, a rape kit was collected, zeeman was recovered, 262 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: and the evidence went to the Virginia Division of Forensic Sciences, 263 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: which is the State Crime Laboratory for zerological testing, and 264 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 3: an analyst there, Mary Jane Burton, did a forensic testing 265 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: and that testing was unable to exclude Marvin as the assailant. 266 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: And just a note for everybody listening, remember that name 267 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: Mary Jane Burton, because she'll be very important to this 268 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: case later on. So then, Marvin, on January twentieth, you 269 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: get arrested. 270 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: Of course, they took their first mug shot of me, 271 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: fingerprinted me, and read me my charges that I was 272 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: charged with rap slomy, robbery, introduction and I was locked 273 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: up that night, and that's when everything happened that kind 274 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: of destroyed my youth. By this time, the community is 275 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: really talking about what happened. They got the wrong person, 276 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: this who did it? 277 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 3: And all this From the very beginning, the community knew 278 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 3: because Otis Lincoln had stolen a bicycle earlier that day, 279 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: and that was the bicycle that was used in the attack. 280 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: One of the guys that plaid on my team said, yeah, 281 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: you know, Pop stole my bike. There was a name 282 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: that they called him, Pop Lincoln. He was referring to 283 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: n stole his bicycle went off in the direction of 284 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: where the crime had taken place. 285 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 3: And people immediately made this connection between Otis Lincoln and 286 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: the crime, but of course it was too lat because 287 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: police had already focused erroneously based on this suggestive identification 288 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 3: on Marvin. 289 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: So we went to my attorney and informed him what 290 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: the community is saying. They're saying that this John Pop 291 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: Lincoln is the person they committed this crime. And my 292 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 2: attorney said, well, I knew him. I represented him some 293 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: years ago on a temporary rape on a female. So 294 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 2: at that time, I'm thinking to myself that hey, okay, 295 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: I got someone that's on my side now, someone that 296 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: knows this man is capable of doing these things. So 297 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: we'd hired him and met with him several times, and 298 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 2: each time we met with him, we was bringing him 299 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: new information about what happened that day. You know, we 300 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: brought in more witnesses that testify that I was at 301 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: a certain place, certain time. One of the witnesses that 302 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: testified in my behalf was that Lincoln said that day 303 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: that if he found a white woman and if they 304 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: didn't want to give him any he would take it. 305 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: And it's just sad to say it, but that's what 306 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: he did that day. So fast forward, we went to 307 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 2: our first put him in their hearing, and the victim 308 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 2: came in and she described her attacker as a very 309 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: very light skinny complexing person, straight, white teeth, short kink 310 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: of hair, maybe one hundred and fifty pounds, maybe five 311 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: sixty five seven. Okay, Well, as you can see me today, 312 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: I am not very very light skinny complexing person. And 313 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: at that time I worked at KINGSMANI amusement park out 314 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: in the sun all day long, so there's no way 315 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: I could be a light skinned complexing person. 316 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 4: That's not me. 317 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 2: However, the person and she described was John ODI's Lincoln, 318 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: but yet she identified me as her attacker. 319 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: So the trial began in December of nineteen eighty two 320 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: before Judge Richard Taylor. Your attorney was Donald White. Take 321 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: us back to that day, Marvin, if you can. 322 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there, I had my family behind me, my mom, dad, grandparents, 323 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 2: and I look over at my jury. You know, It's 324 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: consisted of eight women, four men, all white, and I'm thinking, 325 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to prison. No matter what happens, I'm going 326 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: to prison. So they come off, turning. Then called the 327 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: victim ones to stand to testify, and he asked you 328 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 2: know what happened. 329 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 4: She said. 330 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: I was returning from a restaurant, had a bucket of 331 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 2: chicken in my hand. This black person approached me on 332 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: a bicycle. He asked her if he could walk me home. 333 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: I said no, I don't live too far. He proceeded 334 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: up the path and when I approached him for the 335 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: second time, he's laying on the side holding his knee 336 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 2: like he hurt himself. And when I stopped to assist him, 337 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: that's when he grabbed me. He dragged me in the woods, 338 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: beat me, raped me, and he told me that you know, 339 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: I wasn't his first white woman, that he had a 340 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: white girlfriend and all of that, and he dragged me 341 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: further into the woods and he beat me and raped 342 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: me again, and then he left me there. So when 343 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: it came to my attorney to question her, you know, 344 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: he basically asked the same question that the cor attorney did. 345 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: What happened? Is the person that you know did this 346 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: to you? In his courtroom? She said yes, once again, 347 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: she identified me as her attacker. So I'm still looking 348 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 2: at the jury, you know, and every time it was 349 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 2: almost like every word that came out of her mouth, 350 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: they knew she was telling the truth. No matter who 351 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: my attorney put on the stand was testified, what could 352 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: be a lie. I had my fiance testified that I 353 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: picked her up from work one time. I went to 354 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: my mother's house and washed the car. Return home, We 355 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: ate dinner, We watched Fantasy Islands and The Love Boat 356 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: that night, and we went to bed. I had my 357 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: mother neighbors testified that I was there washing the car. 358 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 2: And not only that, I had the two witnesses that 359 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: over heard John's Lincoln at the car wash saying what 360 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: he would do to a white woman if they didn't 361 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 2: want to give him any So I'm thinking all of 362 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: this in my favor. And once my attorney put Lincoln 363 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: on the stand to testify that somehow it would tricker 364 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: her memory of what happened, just by seeing him and 365 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: hearing his voice. Well, my attorney didn't do that. He 366 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: did not put Lincoln on the stand. And when I 367 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: heard the judge ask my attorney if you had any 368 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: more further questions, he said, no, you'reanna. I turned to 369 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: my attorney and go, hey, wait a minute, what about me? 370 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: I want to testify. When am I gonna testify? His 371 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: words were, oh, everything's good. We don't need you to testify. 372 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 2: He refused to put Nicking on stand, nor did he 373 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: put me on a stand. 374 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: Marvin. I can't even imagine how frustrating that was for you. 375 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: Frustrating is just not really a strong enough word to 376 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: capture that. But as you would learn many years later, 377 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: your attorney had his own reasons for not calling Lincoln 378 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: to testify. 379 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 3: Donald White represented John Otis Lincoln in connection with another 380 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 3: assault that Lincoln was accused of, and that was a 381 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 3: conflict because Marvin's defense at his trial was I'm not 382 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 3: the person who committed this crime. This crime was committed 383 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 3: by someone else. That someone else was a mystery at 384 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 3: the time of trial. But of course Donald White could 385 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: have presented evidence that that person was John Otis Lincoln, 386 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 3: and he chose not to. 387 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: Wow, Vanessa, that is just unbelievable. Rather than disclose that 388 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: he had a conflict of interest, which would have disqualified 389 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: him as Marvin's attorney, Donald White just left John Otis 390 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: Lincoln out of the trial totally. So pretty much all 391 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: the jury had to go on was the victim's identification 392 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: of you, Marvin. 393 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: The jury went out for deliberation in about thirty to 394 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: forty five minutes, came back guilty for two cancer rate sodomy, 395 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 2: robbery introduction, and just ask them do you have a 396 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: recommendation for sentenzens They say, yes, weanna, we do two 397 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 2: hundred and ten years in prison. Everything in the courtroom 398 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: went blank, went dark. I could hear everyone in the courtroom, 399 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 2: but I couldn't see noone. My family were sitting directly 400 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: behind me, and I turned around to look at my 401 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: mom and dad, and I could not see them. It's 402 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 2: like I had fell in a dark hole and there 403 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: was no light anywhere. I could hear them talking to me, saying, 404 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: you know, everything's gonna be all right. We're gonna get 405 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: you out. I could feel that the officers putting sackles 406 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 2: on round my wrists, round my waist and ran my ankles, 407 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 2: but I couldn't see them. Everything was dark. That first week, 408 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: I cried myself to sleep every night. I had no appetite, 409 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 2: couldn't eat. After maybe four or five months later, that's 410 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 2: when I was transferred to the state penitentiary. My first 411 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: day in this state penitentiary, seven guys approached me in 412 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: another newbie and they wanted to fight us all because 413 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: he moved a jacket from out of his seat and 414 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: put it on. I picked the table that was in 415 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: the hall, and they wanted to fight us. 416 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 4: You know. 417 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 2: So my first day was basically preparing myself for what 418 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: to come being in prison. 419 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: Marvin, how did you survive? How did you protect yourself 420 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: in there? 421 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 2: You pick your friends wisely. The people that's incarcerated. You 422 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: can see who's trying to do better for themselves while 423 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 2: they're there, and you just pick your friends wisely. One 424 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: of my best friends that I met when I was there, 425 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 2: I never asked him why he was incarcerated, why he 426 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: was locked up, and he never asked me. 427 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 4: But we became good friends. 428 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: Almost like brothers, and we kind of looked out for 429 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: one another. 430 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: And what about your fiance? Did she stay in your life. 431 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: Doing my incarceration. I did married my fiance. We remained 432 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: at married for over ten years. We mutually agreed to 433 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: have a divorce because we both had discussed about having 434 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 2: children before all this happened, and I was not going 435 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: to deny her that privileged to be a mother, and 436 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: we got a divorce. She did have a baby girl. 437 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: She was still visit me when she came to visit me. 438 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: She would bring her daughter. 439 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: So you went to prison in nineteen eighty three, and 440 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: then five years later, something pretty remarkable happened, Vanessa. Can 441 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about that. 442 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty eight, Wenn at that time had been 443 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: convicted and was in prison for another crime and decided 444 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: to come forward and actually confessed to having been the 445 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 3: actual assailant for the crime for which Marvin was wrongfully convicted, 446 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 3: and he agreed to testify. 447 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: Which he did at a state court hearing before the 448 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: same judge as the first trial, Richard Taylor. 449 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 3: And the judge said, I don't find him credible. I 450 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: don't believe him, and dismissed the evidence. And Marvin stayed 451 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: in prison for another nine years after that before his 452 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 3: release on parole. And this is something that we've seen 453 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 3: in other wrongful conviction cases, where there's the true perpetrator 454 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 3: confesses and courts dismiss it until there's forensic evidence like 455 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: DNA to corroborate it. The confession of the actual assailant 456 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 3: is just not believed. 457 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: So here we have another jaw dropping, unbelievable moment in 458 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: this story, Vanessa, When did the Innocence Project get involved 459 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: in Marvin's case. 460 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 3: Marvin wrote to the Nisence Project in the early nineties. 461 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 3: We took on his case in nineteen ninety four and 462 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 3: for the next five six years looked for the evidence 463 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 3: from his case. 464 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: And did you have any idea what you were looking for? 465 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 3: The Innocence Project was searching for the rape kit itself 466 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 3: to subject to DNA testing, and we couldn't find it. 467 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: D Nnison's Project is a law clinic at Cardozo School 468 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 3: of Law, so there were many law students who worked 469 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 3: on Marvin's case. They were calling police departments, court clerks. 470 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 4: The lab. 471 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 3: Nobody could find the kit. It was gone. And this 472 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: is the worst circumstance that we could have at the 473 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 3: Nisonce Project. When we take on a case for DNA testing, 474 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: our goal is to find the evidence to test it, 475 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 3: and so to not be able to find the evidence, 476 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 3: and this happens in about twenty five percent of our 477 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 3: cases at the Innocence Project. We never get to testing. 478 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 3: We have to close out the case for all purposes. 479 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 3: Marvin's case should have been closed, but we had a 480 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 3: dogged law student on his case, bridget Burns, and she 481 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: wouldn't give up. She said, you know you can't close 482 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 3: it out. And so at that time, Peter Nufel, the 483 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: Innocence Project co director, knew the head of the Virginia 484 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 3: Division of Forensics's Crime laboratory, and so as a last 485 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: ditch effort, he called the director just to say, hey, 486 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 3: could you pull the case file from storage and take 487 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: a look, and maybe there's some type of notation, some 488 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: type of paperwork in the file that could help us 489 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 3: figure out if this evidence still exists and where it is. 490 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 3: So the director pulled the case file, opened up Marvin's 491 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 3: file and made a startling discovery. 492 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: And that brings us back to Mary Jane Burton, the 493 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: forensic analyst who performed those original rology tests back in 494 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two. Mary Jane, it turns out, wasn't exactly 495 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: doing things by the book. 496 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 3: So Mary Jane Burton, when her testing was complete, to 497 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 3: cut off some of the tips of cotton swabs containing 498 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 3: the evidence that was collected during the rape examination and 499 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 3: taped those cotton tip swabs inside of her notebook. And 500 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: that evidence that was saved inside of her notebook went 501 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 3: off to storage with closed cases and was in a 502 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 3: box in a file room for years to come. 503 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: And when you had those swaps tested, what did they 504 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: tell you? 505 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: The test results came back and demonstrated that he was 506 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 3: absolutely innocent, and the DNA was run through the DNA 507 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 3: database and there was a hit. There was a match 508 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 3: in the convicted of endor database, and the person at 509 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: matched was John Otis Lincoln, the person who everyone knew 510 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 3: from the start and who had even confessed to being 511 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 3: involved twenty years before. 512 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: Marvin, you had been granted parole in nineteen ninety eight 513 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: and released, So by this time you were out of prison, 514 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: but you were still living under the shadow of a 515 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. And now in two thousand and one, thanks 516 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: to that DNA test, your name was finally cleared. So 517 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: what came next for you? 518 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: Well, I went through the fire academy, I graduated top 519 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: of my class, and within a year or so, I 520 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: became a lieutenant. Two three years down the road, moved 521 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: up ranks again. I just retired maybe two years ago 522 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: from being the chief of the very sane fire department 523 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 2: that I had joined when I was thirteen years old, 524 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: and I'm still heavily involved in the fire service out 525 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: there in that county. But yeah, I was able to 526 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: achieve a dream that I had becoming a professional fireman 527 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 2: after I got my name clear. 528 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: So thinking about that officer, Roy, was he still around 529 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: when you were fully exonerated. 530 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 4: Yes, he never spoke to me. 531 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: I would see him, you know, in restaurants or at 532 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: the gas stations, and if he saw me coming across 533 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: the parking lot, he would walk the opposite direction. Maybe 534 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: his conscience had been eating at over that period of time, 535 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: but he would never speak to me, or apologize or 536 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: acknowledge what happened between. 537 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: Us, Vanessa, Were there any consequences for anyone, including that officer, 538 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: for the way that this case was handled. 539 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 3: No, And unfortunately that's not unusual in wrongful conviction cases. 540 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 3: Almost never is anyone held accountable, not the officers that 541 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 3: were involved, the prosecutors or defense attorneys. Like in this case. 542 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 3: I mean, Marvin's defense attorney had an obvious conflict having 543 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 3: represented the person who actually committed the crime and was 544 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 3: the alternate suspect. I mean, that is a conflict. That 545 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: evidence should have been presented to the jury, but it wasn't. 546 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: You know, Vanessa, There's one thing that I do want 547 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: to bring up here. Marvin's innocence case hinged on DNA testing, 548 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: which wouldn't have been possible if Mary Jane Burton hadn't 549 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: broken the rules at her job. In fact, her action 550 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: of saving those samples has actually resulted in the exoneration 551 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: of a dozen other wrongfully convicted men at this point, 552 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: but there are other cases I believe where her playing 553 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: fast and loose with policy may have caused some harm. 554 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: So what should we think about Mary Jane Burton? 555 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: Is she heroic? Is this visionary? Does that mean that 556 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 3: there isn't any part of her work that could come 557 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 3: under scrutiny? And so I think it's just, you know, 558 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 3: an interesting thing about our society that doesn't see nuance 559 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 3: or can't see that people can both do something great 560 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 3: like save evidence that leads to the exoneration of many 561 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 3: wrongfully convicted people, but also have flaws in her work 562 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 3: at the same time, and it seems like those two 563 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 3: truths might coexist. 564 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: Thank you both Marvin and Vanessa for being here telling 565 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: your story on wrongful conviction and what a link to 566 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: the Innocence Project in our bio in case our listeners 567 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: want to help support the great work that they're doing. 568 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: And now we've come to the part of the show 569 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: that we call closing arguments. This is a chance for 570 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: you both to say anything that's on your mind, whatever 571 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: you'd like listeners to take away from your story. 572 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 3: Towards the beginning, you had asked some questions about the 573 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 3: racial dynamics of Handover or Ashland specifically, and I was just, 574 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 3: you know, wanted to add that Loving versus Virginia is 575 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 3: a landmark case in the United States which held that 576 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 3: laws that were banning in a racial marriage were unconstitutional. 577 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 3: That is in nineteen sixty seven, So we're just talking 578 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 3: about fifteen years before the incident that led to Marvin's 579 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 3: wrongful conviction. And there have been thousands of wrongful convictions 580 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 3: catalog by the National Registry of Exonerations which starts at 581 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty nine. But wrongful conviction didn't just start in 582 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 3: this country in the nineteen eighties, right, And we could 583 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 3: go back to the thirties and look at the Scottsboro Boys, right, 584 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 3: who were young black teenage males who were wrongfully accused 585 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 3: and convicted of raping white women in Alabama. And this 586 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 3: nation has had a long history of wrongful conviction when 587 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 3: it comes to black men who are accused convicted have 588 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 3: been lynched of purported sexual assaults involving white women. And 589 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 3: that's a context that exists in Marvin's case. He's convicted 590 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: and tried by an all white jerry, and just the 591 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 3: amount of process that went into this investigation and the 592 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 3: sentence that he was given a life sentence right two 593 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 3: hundred and ten years and so race pervaded his wrongful 594 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,240 Speaker 3: conviction in ways that have deep roots in American history. 595 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 2: A lot of people ask me, how did I you 596 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: know I should be angry, I should be angry at 597 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: the victim, And my response is I can't be angry 598 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 2: at the victim. For the separate fact, what happened did happen. 599 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 2: Everything that she described that happened to her that day, 600 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 2: it did happen, But it wasn't me who did these 601 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 2: things to her. While I was incarcerated, tried to take 602 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 2: advantage of the system as far as you know, completing 603 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 2: my education, going to college, taking up trades and all 604 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: of this to keep moving forward. And if I were 605 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 2: to go through that time period being angry and mad 606 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 2: at the world, I wouldn't be where I'm at today, 607 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,959 Speaker 2: because I've seen what anger can do to people. While 608 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: I was there, you know, I chose to better myself, 609 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 2: to move forward and to help those that I need, 610 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: to be a voice for what happened. And once again, 611 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: you know what happened to me happens every day. We 612 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 2: as a society, it has to be aware and accept 613 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 2: that there are innocent people, men and women who are 614 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 2: incartrated for something or crimes they did not commit, and 615 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 2: we need to help and that is my goal to 616 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 2: help change these laws and policy so we can have 617 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 2: a better place for everyone. 618 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 619 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: to this and all Lava for Good podcasts one week 620 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. 621 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,720 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler 622 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis for inviting me to sit in today, 623 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 1: and thanks to our production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea, 624 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: Lela Robinson and Kathleen Fink. The music in this production 625 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 626 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms 627 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction, and you 628 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: can follow me by going to my website. Ashley fonts 629 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: dot com. That's Ashley a s H L E y 630 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: f A n t z dot com. Wrongful Conviction is 631 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good podcasts and association with 632 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one