1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: On October seventeenth, two thousand and seven, Chris Smith was 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: on parole for a previous robbery conviction when an armed 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: robbery happened at a Cincinnati Bell wireless store in his area. 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: A disguised sail at brandishing a gun commanded the customers 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: to hit the floor and demanded all the money for 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: the register before fleeing in a Blue Ford Expedition. The 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: owner of that car Chrismis's girlfriend. Soon after the robbery, 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: the Blue Expedition was all over the news, and Chris 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: texted his girlfriend to report the vehicle stolen. As police 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: were preparing to arrest him, Chris fled to the apartment 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: of an old friend, Charles Allen, where he removed his 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: ankle monitor. It wasn't long before Chris was arrested, prosecuted, 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: and convicted by circumstantial evidence that was so powerful it 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: overwhelmed physical evidence to the contrary. After all, he'd done 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: things like this before. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome 16 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's episode features some circumstantial evidence 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: that definitely twists somebody's head around. If you were sitting 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: on a jury so fasting your seatbelt, this is a 19 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: crazy story. I'm really honored to have the people here 20 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: to tell it, including the man himself who lived this 21 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: night mare, Chris Smith. So, Chris, it's about time we 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: did this, and I'm glad you're here. Welcome to the show. 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: Thank you honor to be here. 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: And with him is his attorney, Michelle Berry Godsey, who 25 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: actually began her career, as I understand that at the 26 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: Ohio and isis project with this case. So Michelle, thanks for. 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 3: Being here, Thanks for having me. 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: And of course it'll surprise exactly no one that we 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: have another case out of Ohio, because man, Ohio it's 30 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's at Yeah, with all due respect to 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: anybody who lives there, but in terms of justice it 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: ain't great. And Avid Listener knows that because we have 33 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: really the high proportional cases out of Ohio. But before 34 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: we get into that part of the story, Chris, what 35 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: was your life like? I understand you were a musician, 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: had a couple of kids growing up in Cincinnati. Is 37 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: all that accurate? 38 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: Yes, sir, seven year old son and just had darted 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: with seven months when all this happened. 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: What kind of music would you play? What was your thing? 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: So I was a hip hop artist and a writer 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: as well. I was discovered by a manager who signed 43 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: boy band Youngstown, discovered Neo and gave me an opportunity, 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: took me out to LA and they had me as 45 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: the next big thing. And so I was writing with Neo, 46 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,559 Speaker 2: Mike Citi, Shinghi, working with Polly Paul Grammy nominated producers 47 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: and things like that. So I was on my way. 48 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: Before making this progress in the music industry. Chris had 49 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: a prior robbery conviction, but by two thousand and seven 50 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: he had served his time and was living cleanly on parole. Then, 51 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: on October seventeenth, two thousand and seven, at around three 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: forty pm, a man wearing a wig, sunglasses, and his 53 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: T shirt collar pulled up over his mouth, ran into 54 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: a Cincinnati Bell wireless store with a gun, ordered the 55 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: customers to the ground, told the manager to empty the 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: cash register, and fled with about eight hundred dollars in 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: a blue Ford expedition. So, with his prior conviction, in 58 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: addition to some other circumstantial evidence, Chris became a prime suspect. 59 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: The police in the area admitted that they immediately suspected 60 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 3: Chris and his brother Ricky Now Ricky was lucky because 61 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: he was actually in the county jail at the time 62 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: on some petty drug possession thing, so he immediately was eliminated. 63 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 3: But they still latched onto Chris simply because he was 64 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: on parole at the time and they knew that he 65 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 3: lived in this area. So that's one thing. The second 66 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: thing is it was known fairly early on that the 67 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 3: get Us truck that was used the blue Ford expedition 68 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 3: it was traced to his girlfriend at the time, who 69 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 3: told the police that she had basically given the truck 70 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: to Chris for his personal use. So those two things 71 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 3: don't look good on Chris. But the bigger picture that 72 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 3: was really unfolding here, like you mentioned, this was the 73 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 3: robbery of a Cincinni Bell wireless store. There was one 74 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 3: eyewitness to this crime and he was across the street 75 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: driving and he saw the man run out of the 76 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: store carrying a laptop. He believed it was a laptop, 77 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: that's what he told on the nine one one call 78 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 3: and described the gunman as a light skinned black man. 79 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 3: And even knowing how this caller had described the gunman, 80 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 3: police came to the scene with lineups already matching Chris's description. 81 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: Chris, have you ever been a light skinned man? 82 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: No, I've been pretty dark on my life. 83 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: I'm glad you pointed that out. So the robber hopped 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: in this getaway car, a blue Ford expedition. The a 85 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: nine to one one caller tried to follow him but 86 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 3: lost the truck, and soon police were on the scene 87 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: and they found the truck along with the robbers costume. 88 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 3: So this was two thousand and seven. Everyone knew at 89 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 3: that point to do DNA testing. That testing did occur 90 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 3: before trial, but happened a little bit further down the. 91 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: Line before the DNA testing. During the immediate aftermath. Chris 92 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: was the focus of the investigation, something that became clear 93 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: to him when he recognized the truck that he shared 94 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: with his girlfriend on the five o'clock news. 95 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: On a breaking news story. You're looking at it, You're like, 96 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: hold on, wait a minute, Like what do I do? 97 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: And so when you're from the city hood whatever you 98 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: want to call it is just like, you don't call 99 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: the police because grow up not to trust the police. Right. 100 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: So I'm reaching out to the person who named the 101 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: truck is in and I'm like, listen, I didn't do this. 102 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: So report this stolen. 103 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 3: And we ended up getting Chris's text messages at the 104 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 3: exact moment that this new story aired, so we had 105 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: that in our favor to show, but no one ended 106 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 3: up caring with. 107 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: The circumstantial even it's available. It wasn't long before police 108 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: began surrounding Chris's apartment. 109 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: And so you see all these plain clothes officers around 110 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: the properties. Then you have my daughter Mom in there, 111 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: who was with me years prior when I went to 112 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: jail the same way, right, So she's remembering this. So 113 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: it's a lot of trauma and stuff going on, and she's, 114 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: oh my god, you have to go, and I'm like, go, 115 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: not I didn't do nothing. So I'm thinking, like, okay, 116 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: what can I do? I don't just want to run. 117 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: Chris had to be more proactive about clearing his name 118 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: beyond reporting the vehicle stolen. After all, he had lent 119 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: it to an old friend, Charles Allen. 120 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 2: So I'm trapped between the rock and a hard place. 121 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: I'm a rapper, a street rapper at that. I'm talking 122 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: about gangster stuff at the time, Right, I can't call 123 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: the police and say such and such did it my 124 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: credibility yet be done. Career be over with. So I 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 2: have to do it in the creative way because I 126 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: got all this good stuff going for me, and then 127 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: I have the cold. And so what I do was 128 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: call my parole officer immediately, and I got a GPS monitor, right, 129 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: So it's two parts of the GPS, so no one 130 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: is confused. You have the box where I have to 131 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: download my data from the GPS, which is important that 132 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: I left at my house for my parole officer to get. 133 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: Then you have the actual ankle tracker that's tracking you 134 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: everywhere you go. That's on my ankle at the time. 135 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: And so what I do was tell my parole officer listen, 136 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: you could find my tracking device downstairs. But I still 137 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: have the ankle monitor on now. 138 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: His parole officer was in possession of Chris his alibi evidence, 139 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: which proved his whereabouts at the time of the crime, 140 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: while Chris went ahead and made contact with Charles Allen. 141 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: I call this guy, bru, What did you do with 142 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: my up bron will tell you about to come to 143 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: the place. I go to his place. 144 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: Wait, how did you get past the detectives that were 145 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: outside the undercovers? 146 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: It's different cuts and stuff you could go. His mom 147 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: stays like, probably like a mile away. So I went there, 148 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 2: cut off my ankle monitor there, thinking my ankle thing 149 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: will be tracked here, right, and maybe this will lead 150 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: to people to the right guy. He's telling me the story, 151 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: who's involved. I'll call my brother, call my team. They like, listen, 152 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: get out of there, come here, let's figure this out. 153 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 2: And then I went right. And the whole time I'm 154 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: in communication with my parole officer. I'm cooperating, getting information, 155 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: and they saying, well, they retrieved the costume and this 156 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 2: and that, and the first thing I said was, run 157 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: a DNA. You have all this stuff, run a DNA 158 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: and please let me know. 159 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 3: Thankfully, they found all three pieces, the wig, the sunglasses, 160 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 3: and there was a black T shirt that the robber 161 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 3: was using to pull up over the lower half of 162 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 3: his face. Ultimately, those items were tested and came back 163 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 3: to exclude Chris and identify this man, Charles Allen. So 164 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: the one eyewitness described the gunman as a light skinned 165 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 3: black man, and Charles Allen, the man that was ultimately 166 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: identified being a light skinned man. It's always the first 167 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: thing people describe him as. That's the way he's described 168 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: in his file with the Hamilton County Police Department. Chris 169 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: ultimately did say in an interview before the DNA test 170 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: was conducted that he loaned his truck to Charles Allen. 171 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 3: He said what he looks like. He also said light skinned. 172 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 3: In short, all of the fingerprints also excluded Chris, and 173 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: three of them came back to Charles Allen. He was 174 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 3: in the APHIS system. So they had Charles Allen from 175 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 3: Chris's mouth, from fingerprints GPS, they had a description from 176 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: a neutral eyewitness of a light skinned man that matches 177 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 3: Charles Allen. They finally did the DNA testing and boom, 178 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 3: it's also Charles Allen. All of this was known before 179 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: Chris's trial. No one was interested in going after Charles Allen. 180 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: I mean word on a street seas he was helping 181 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: them with more bigger things gang stuff, murders, organized crime 182 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 2: and things like that. That's why he was given immunity. 183 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: It starts with circumstantial evidence against Chris, and then it 184 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: turns into literally the easiest case to solve. Literally, Jesus 185 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: could have popped up and said, that's the guy who 186 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: did it. And it seems like the judge throwing a went, sorry, Jesus, 187 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: I got a different idea. I mean, and this was 188 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: a bench trial. Now we got to talk about that too. 189 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: But first of all, of course, it's Hamilton County and 190 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: we know they have a history of hiding overwhelming evidence 191 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: of innocence, for instance Elwood Jones, who we interviewed on 192 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: this podcast. So Hamilton County very notorious. 193 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 3: The head prosecutor, of course, was Joe Dieters, the district 194 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 3: attorney at the time, but the actual line prosecutor doing 195 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: the case it was a guy named Clay Tharp. It 196 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 3: wasn't the usual suspects of Seth Ti or Pete Meyer. 197 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: Chris, how did you end up with Michelle? An attorney 198 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: who actually could defend you, which a lot of people 199 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: don't even have that. 200 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: I had an attorney that people was trying to get 201 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: me to work with, one that's been practicing law for 202 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: thirty plus years. I really didn't trust this lawyer. And 203 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: Michelle was there seeing someone else. She was up on 204 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: our floor in a bullpen, and I seen her and 205 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: then I just seen the energy and I'm like, okay, 206 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: she looked like she's fairly no. I needed somebody fresh 207 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: that was going to actually fight for me, and I'm 208 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: not taking no plea deal, right. So I approached Michelle 209 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: and I just sat down with her and I was 210 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: telling her about the situation. She was like, Yeah, I 211 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: love to take this case, and this probably like one 212 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: of the best decisions I made, even though I was convicted, 213 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: because I think no matter what attorney I had, I 214 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 2: would have been convicted at this point because they was 215 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: just so deep and put so much in their eggs 216 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: in one basket that it was no turning back. 217 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 3: What they were going to try to say to still 218 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 3: say that this was Chris was to say that because 219 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: Chris and Charles knew each other, that somehow Charles's DNA 220 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 3: just briefly rubbed off on the costumes and somehow Chris 221 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 3: just got lucky and wasn't on it. So for that reason, 222 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: we had specifically requested the lab notes and all the 223 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 3: data underlying the DNA testing, but that was never turned 224 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 3: over at the time of trial. 225 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: In addition to demanding the DNA testing and underlying data, 226 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: they turned their sights on Charles Allen. 227 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: Chris, and I worked with a private detective to wire 228 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: up Chris's brother Ricky to go talk to Charles the 229 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 3: strategy where we were using is Ricky would feed him 230 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: some wrong facts and see if Charles would like correct 231 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 3: it since he was there and he knew would he 232 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: did so, Remember I said the eyewitness said he saw 233 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 3: the gunman come out carrying a laptop. It actually was 234 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: a cash registered drawer, but the eyewitness thought it was 235 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: a laptop. So Ricky, when he's wired up, says to Charles, 236 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: they're saying that Chris was coming out of the store 237 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: carrying a laptop, and Charles says, on the recording, I 238 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: wasn't carrying a motherfucking laptop. It was a cash drawer. 239 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: First person, I wasn't carrying a motherfucking laptop. It was 240 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 3: a cash drawer. So we have this on recording. We 241 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 3: have eventually additional recordings to this, but we're like, okay, 242 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: well this is rock solid now. 243 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: And of course it ends up as a bench trial 244 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: with Judge Robert Ruhlman, which I'm curious to know how 245 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: that decision was made. 246 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 3: So Cincinnati, the criminal justice community here is like everybody 247 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: knows everybody. So I was talking to every criminal defense 248 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: attorney and universally, the one thing to know about Robert 249 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 3: Ruhlman is if he takes you back in chambers and 250 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 3: is talking with you about the case and he says, 251 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 3: this sounds like a bench trial, that is your signal 252 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: that he is going to acquit your person. But at 253 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 3: that time he had been on the bench for decades. 254 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: I think people get so inundated in the system unless 255 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 3: they are actively checking themselves. They get a mindset that 256 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: they can just judge a case and that they just 257 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 3: know what the right answer is. And so despite that, 258 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: I think Robert Ruhlman is a good person and he 259 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: used his This looks like a bench trial to me, 260 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: he conned us and the reason that happened. Although this 261 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 3: played out after the fact, this was not far from 262 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: his neighborhood and the police in that area talked with 263 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: him frequently about the crime in that area of town. 264 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: And I think that, like Chris was saying, this would 265 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 3: have happened with any attorney, because he was going to 266 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 3: commit Chris no matter what. 267 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: So trial began in two thousand and eight and the 268 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: state presented their theory about Charles and Chris committing the 269 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: robbery together, Charles as the driver and Chris donned in 270 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: the costume and holding up to Cincinnati Bell wireless store. 271 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: The eyewitness testified about what he saw, as well as 272 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: Chris's girlfriend, saying that she had basically given him the expedition. 273 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: So the whole trial is playing out, all the DNA 274 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: is presented. Sure enough, the state tries to go with 275 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: this theory that Chris just got lucky that his DNA 276 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 3: didn't rub off, and Charles somehow got unlucky that his 277 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: DNA did rub off when he somehow briefly touched these items. 278 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: So the state closed their case. We put on our case, 279 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 3: and the state ended up calling Charles Allen as a 280 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 3: rebuttal witness. And I was hoping this is exactly what 281 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 3: would happen, that he would somehow be called on the stand, 282 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: because I got to present his statements to him. Now, 283 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 3: of course, these had already been played in court and 284 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: he wasn't there to hear them. Four people had already 285 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: identified his voice on them. But unsurprisingly he's like, that's 286 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: not my voice. So that day he was waiting in 287 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 3: the jail to be called as a witness in this trial, 288 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: and I got his recorded calls. The first call he makes, 289 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: he starts complaining that he's salty that Ricky wired up 290 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: on him and recorded him talking about the robbery. So 291 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: when he's on the stand saying that's not my voice. 292 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: I got to then play for him the recording of 293 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: him saying, man, I'm so salty that Ricky wired up 294 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 3: on me and recorded me, to make it very obvious 295 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: that this actually is him. In addition, Chris called him 296 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: many times and got him to talk about things too. 297 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: You got him to say that he would meet with 298 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 3: me his attorney, to describe other people who were there. 299 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: He made other dominating statements like they must be paying 300 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 3: the witnesses to say that Chris did this because they 301 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 3: know that he didn't. 302 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: You can't be a worse criminal than this guy, right, 303 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: And now here you are at trial, you're watching this 304 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: unfold and it comes to the moment that the judge 305 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: is going to make his ruling. 306 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: We all knew that I was through. It's very rare 307 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: to go to trial as a defendant and prove your innocence, 308 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: not just raising the doubt. Right. And it's like the 309 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 2: harder Michelle went for me, the more irritated this judge became. 310 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: And it was just a lot of comments and how 311 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: he said to Michelle, well, you did a great job. 312 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: For a public defender are Yeah, this is not the 313 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: futuitive movie. It's like he said so many sly comments 314 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: and convicting me and giving me twenty eight years for 315 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: robbery when no one was hurt. To go to jail 316 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: period is something. But to be given all that time 317 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: for something didn't do, it's just a whole nother feeling. 318 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: It's the whole conditioning of it, right. It goes beyond 319 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: just the wrong for conviction, right, the conditioning of it, 320 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: from the time you walk into the county jail, how 321 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: they have you stand, how they process you, taking you 322 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: to a floor where you sit in here all day, 323 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 2: let you out, take you to the bullpen, go to court, 324 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: sing you up to another thing. One call is about 325 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: that control, and it gets in your mind to tell 326 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: you this is your life, this is all you work. 327 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: Don't expect nothing more, right, And so you do this 328 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 2: for years and years, and you just conditioned to feel 329 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: like shit, to feel like you nothing, to feel like 330 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: you don't deserve nothing more from being an adult and 331 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: having correctional officers have a key to yourself that's ten 332 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: fifteen years younger than you, and you have to say 333 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: miss such and such or CEO, and it dehumanizes you. 334 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: And so you go through that for years and years 335 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: to where it becomes a part of you, right shaping 336 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: me into who I became or who I am today. 337 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: So how do you find balance of staying true to 338 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: who you are but surviving this right? Because I knew 339 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: I was coming home and I just didn't know when. 340 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: Because I knew I had a fighter with Michelle, I 341 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: knew I had a great organization such as the op 342 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: with me. I'm one of the fortunate ones that came 343 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: home with an opportunity to get back into society, to 344 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: have the humanity back in the store. And I found 345 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: myself coming home from work and coming in and confining 346 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: myself to my bedroom just at one space when I 347 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: got two floors, because I'm like unconsciously conditioned to be 348 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: right here just in the bed, having a refrigerator full 349 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 2: of food but only eating chips and news. Like. I 350 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 2: really went through this phase for at least ninety days, 351 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 2: and I woke up one day. I was making some 352 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: noodles for breakfast, Raymond noodles, and I was stirring the 353 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: noodles and I'm the only one in here, and I 354 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 2: was like, oh, shit, I'm really eating noodles at ten 355 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, made the noodles and took them 356 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: back in my room, like I had to go there. 357 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: That's what my incarceration did. I took a lot. I 358 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 2: went through a life. My mom died, which was my 359 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 2: best friend, only one of the main supports I had, 360 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: and me not being able to go to her funeral 361 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: and listening to it from a jail phone, and things 362 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: like that, missing your children grow up and all this, 363 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: and so you like, you have to deal with it 364 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: because you don't want to come out out of this 365 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: thing destroyed. 366 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: And so many of the stories we hear as our 367 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: guest struggle with prison life. They also typically received denials 368 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: on their direct appeals. While exonerating information remains hidden. But 369 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: in Chris's case, Chris already had Michelle and they knew 370 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: what they needed to do, and still it took twelve 371 00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: long years. 372 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: After Chris was convicted. One of the things I was 373 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: hell bent on doing was getting the data underlying the 374 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 3: DNA evidence, and my expert re ran all the tests. 375 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: So she retested the wig, the sunglasses, and the T 376 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 3: shirt and it showed from her lab notes and the 377 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 3: state's lab notes that were withheld during his trial that 378 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: Charles Allen's DNA was present across the board fourteen out 379 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: of fifteen and fifteen out of fifteen low SI on 380 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: the wig and the T shirt the sunglasses. The States 381 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 3: testing came back inconclusive, but my expert post trial came 382 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 3: back and also identified Charles Allens. We were able to 383 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: have a post conviction hearing and present all of this 384 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 3: evidence and get it in the record also with Judge 385 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 3: Ruhlman and my expert. She explained that contrary to the 386 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 3: state's theory that that is not consistent with somebody who 387 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: just briefly handles something, especially a wig. You think about 388 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 3: if you just touch wig, you're touching like the outside 389 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 3: of it, the inner part that touches your head when 390 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: you're wearing it was heavily present with his DNA, and 391 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 3: so was the shirt. And she explained that this is 392 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 3: evidence that Charles Allen was wearing these items. And we 393 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: were before the same judge that convicted Chris, and he said, 394 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 3: on the record, Okay, I understand the evidence. The evidence 395 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: shows that Chris isn't the one who committed this robbery, 396 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 3: but I think he was involved somehow, So I'm going 397 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 3: to deny this motion and keep his convictions in place, 398 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 3: which is insane, truly insane, because the state's theory from 399 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 3: start to finish and even to that point, was that 400 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: Chris was the one who wore the costume and came 401 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: in with the gun and committed this robbery, and Charles 402 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: claimed that he was the getaway driver. So the judge 403 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,239 Speaker 3: deny this motion. But at least we were able to 404 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 3: get all of this crucial DNA evidence in addition to 405 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 3: our DNA testing of the sunglasses that also identified Charles 406 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: Allen on the record. 407 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: Now with the Brady material on the record, they could 408 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: present it on direct appeal, for which Chris had to 409 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: hire a different attorney. 410 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 3: I was sending this attorney all kinds of emails, voicemails, 411 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 3: Please meet with me. I have to explain this to you, 412 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: and will you believe that appellat attorney didn't even raise 413 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 3: the error of a Brady violation and didn't even include 414 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 3: any of the evidence from the post conviction hearing. Basically, 415 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: the errors that she raised were non errors. So of 416 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 3: course he lost his appeal. 417 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: This was the same attorney that I was working with 418 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: before I end up retaining Michelle that's been practicing law 419 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: for thirty plus years. Everybody that knows her and is like, 420 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: how did she miss that? And then not communicate with Michelle. 421 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: At that point, if there's anything that you don't raise 422 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 3: in one court, you can never raise it in a 423 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: higher court. It's considered procedurally defaulted. So I was still 424 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 3: desperate to fix this. So what I did at that 425 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 3: point was I got the Ohio Public Defender's Office involved 426 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 3: to file a non routine motion in the appellate Court 427 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 3: called a Rule twenty six B motion, which it's available 428 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 3: for situations like this where the appellate attorney is ineffective 429 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: to try to reopen the appeal and put forth the 430 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 3: error that the appellaate attorney didn't raise. Now, again, this 431 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 3: is still obvious that we should win this. But the 432 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 3: court denied the Rule twenty six B motion and said 433 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 3: that the appellate attorney was not ineffective for raising this because, 434 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: in their opinion, this DNA evidence that was presented in 435 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 3: the post conviction motion was only cumulative to what was 436 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: already presented at the trial and it really didn't shed 437 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 3: any new light. So they really missed the entire point 438 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: of it. 439 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: While the appeals unfolded over a decade of Chris's life 440 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: ticked away, and they moved on to federal court, where 441 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: there are ways to raise procedurally defaulted issues. After one denial, 442 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: they had a win at the next level in the 443 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: Sixth Circuit. 444 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 3: They issued an amazing decision in June of twenty nineteen, 445 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 3: and this was the first court that ever understood that 446 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 3: the state was repeatedly putting forth false claims. Like the 447 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 3: judge did, Chris was involved somehow. I have a hunch 448 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: he was involved in this somehow, and that's not a 449 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 3: valid basis for conviction, And in fact, all the evidence 450 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 3: showed the exact opposite. The Sixth Circuit had to remand 451 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 3: it back to the district court to actually decide the 452 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 3: merits of the Brady claim and the ineffective assistance of 453 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 3: a Pellet Council claim, and they ended up not having 454 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 3: to rule on the ineffective assistance of a Pellet council 455 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: claim because the Brady violation trumped it. So finally, in 456 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 3: April of twenty twenty, height of the COVID pandemic, Chris 457 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 3: was finally released. 458 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: Chris was supposed to be released on April ninth, twenty twenty, 459 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: and with a co morbidity. His release during the early 460 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: days of the COVID pandemic could not have been more urgent. 461 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: April ninth, com and Michelle we have steadied communication. She's like, 462 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: it's going to happen, like, yeah, you're being released, and 463 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: Saw I'm just like ready sale, pack case, sleep. The 464 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: night before my son, who's at this time is what 465 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: nineteen years old, haven't seen him since seven. He comes 466 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 2: up to Toledo with Michelle and all day just waiting, 467 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 2: not getting answers anything, and Dan finally eleven o'clock eleven 468 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: thirty that evening they come into my sale and saying, okay, 469 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: you being released and just to have that sense of freedom, 470 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: right and you're getting dressed out and things like that, 471 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: and then walk out and highway patrol is sitting there waiting, 472 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 2: not your family, but highway patroler sitting there waiting with 473 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: chains and saying, hey, you're coming with us. So I'm like, 474 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: hold up, wait a minute, where is my lawyer? Like 475 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: are you coming with us? Don't worry about it, and 476 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: chaining me not in the back, but in the front 477 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 2: of a highway patrol car. Highway patrol may get in 478 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: the back behind me, and it's like, at this point, 479 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 2: twelve thirty one in the morning, and we drive it 480 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: from Toledo to Cincinnati, which is a three and a 481 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: half hour drive, and you just got this patrol man 482 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: sitting behind you when you up front with your hands 483 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 2: visible and I'm just sitting up. Came the scariest thing 484 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: in my life because in my mind, I'm like, oh 485 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: my god, I'm just waiting to hear drop the weapon, 486 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: drop the weapon, or he reached for my gun and 487 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: they kill me right there. I mean, I'm having to 488 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: like scratch my nose. I don't want to move. I'm 489 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 2: just right here, just sitting straight up, just watching the road, 490 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: not asking questions in anything. Just take me where I'm going. 491 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 2: They end up processing me in the county jail. 492 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 3: The writ hit said that Chris was to be immediately 493 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 3: released under no conditions, so they weren't following the orders. 494 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: So I got a ruling from the federal judge saying 495 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 3: that he essentially was going to hold the state in 496 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: contempt if you weren't released. And what we found out 497 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: a couple days later, ironically, Judge Ruleman came to our 498 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: aid is that on April ninth, when the federal court 499 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 3: issued the ordering Chris released, Hamilton County called Judge Ruleman 500 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: and said, there's this order on this case that was 501 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 3: your case, saying that Chris Smith is to be released, 502 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: but we want to continue to hold him to bring 503 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 3: him to trial again. Can we get an order to 504 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: that which they were not allowed to do. That's in 505 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: direct violation of the federal order. And Judge Roulman said 506 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: to them, I need to see the federal order first 507 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 3: before I can do that. They didn't give it to him, 508 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 3: so he thought the issue was just dropped. But no, 509 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 3: that is not what happened. Because this was COVID, not 510 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 3: all the judges were present. They were having like alternate 511 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: judges coming in. The prosecutors went to the judge who 512 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: was the presiding judge, who was physically there at the courtroom, 513 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 3: and told her that Judge Rulman said for her to 514 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 3: sign this order on his case to have Chris Smith 515 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 3: brought back, which he explicitly did not do. But she 516 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 3: signed it because that's what she was told Roulman wanted, 517 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 3: and Chris was brought back to Hamilton County and defiance 518 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 3: of the federal order, and a few days later we 519 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 3: finally got in court in front of Judge Roulman. Judge 520 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 3: Roulman was then one hundred percent on our side and 521 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: saying no, Chris Smith has to be released, very very 522 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 3: angry with the county prosecutors at what they had done 523 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 3: deceiving him. 524 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: The Hamilton County Court of Common Please issued a release 525 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: order as well, but the state continued on appealing whether 526 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: the federal court even had the jurisdiction to rule on 527 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: the Brady material. Nevertheless, Chris was freed on April fourteenth, 528 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. 529 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: I just came home and hit the ground running. Just 530 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 2: got back to things I was doing before I went in, 531 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: as such as my music, just building a brand, a 532 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: lot of things that I started even before I was released, 533 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 2: as far as start my own company and got into 534 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 2: promotion and things like that. Got married, and I got 535 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: a job, a good opportunity at a dealership here. Started 536 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: excelling in that, working with found village organization of at 537 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 2: risk youth, coaching football, mentoring youth, just doing everything I 538 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: could to contribute to the goodness of this world, and 539 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 2: just to stay busy. I just really want to think 540 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: about where it came from and kind of just put 541 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: it behind me and just pressed forward. 542 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: State appealed Chris's habeas petition on the basis of saying 543 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: that the state appellate court, when they denied that rule 544 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 3: twenty six B motion, if you'll remember back, that was 545 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 3: the one to get his direct appeal reopened to raise 546 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 3: the Brady claims. When appealing his habeast grant, the state 547 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 3: said that twenty six B motion ruled on the Brady claim. 548 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: They said something like the appellate attorney didn't mess up 549 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: here because any claim of a Brady violation wasn't material. 550 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: Even though the Brady violation in question was most definitely material. 551 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: The DNA testings underlying data thwarted the state's theory and 552 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: prove Chris's innocence. 553 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 3: The state was now saying the federal District court was 554 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: wrong to grant the habeat petition because the state court 555 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: already ruled on your Brady claim and they didn't get 556 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 3: it wrong. And the federal court can't undo a state 557 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 3: court ruling unless it's contrary to or an unreasonable application 558 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: of US Supreme Court precedent. And so when we went 559 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: before the Sixth Circuit the second time with a horrendous panel, 560 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: they agreed with the state and said, yes, in fact, 561 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 3: despite everything that our same court said about the DNA, 562 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 3: evidence shows that you weren't the gunman. The trial evidence 563 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 3: shows that you weren't an accomplice. The State appellate Court's 564 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 3: ruling when they rejected your twenty six B motion has 565 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 3: to stand because some reasonable minds could think that way. 566 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 3: So the Sixth Circuit reversed the grant of the habeas petition. 567 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: Once that decision came back, I lost their drift and 568 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: I stopped writing, I stopped creating, I stopped moving the 569 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: company forward, and just became content with working. This is 570 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: how you conditioned like when you're in prison, like going 571 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 2: to Chilhall or having your port a job and being 572 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: going on back to Yosee. 573 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 3: So where his case technically stands now, there's kind of 574 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: two parts to it. Sixth Circuit remanded it back to 575 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: the District Court again to rule on the merits of 576 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 3: the ineffective assistance of appellate Council claim. We had to 577 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 3: brief that in May of twenty twenty one, and it's 578 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 3: still been pending since then. And Chris was, of course, 579 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 3: under threat of having to go back to prison because 580 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: his habeas grant was reversed, and so Judge Rolmand recused himself, 581 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: passed the case off to a different judge, a newly elected, 582 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: absolutely fantastic judge Jennifer Branch on his case in state 583 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,719 Speaker 3: court now, who granted Chris' judicial release basically commuted the 584 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 3: remainder of his sentence so that he could not go 585 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 3: back to prison on this but left it so that 586 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 3: he's on supervision by the state court, so to speak, 587 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 3: so that we still retained jurisdiction and federal court to 588 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 3: get his convictions officially wiped off theirroat record once and 589 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 3: for all. 590 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: You know, I have a probation officer, a parole officer, 591 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: so technically I'm not free. And when I'm here and 592 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 2: enjoying my day and I get a knock on the 593 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: door and look out the people, it's too probation officers 594 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 2: with guns and badges invest on like I'm a threat 595 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 2: one standing on the side of the door and not 596 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: let them in, and it could just pop up and 597 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 2: evade my home at any given time. There's no freedom 598 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 2: in that. I don't feel free. And in that process, 599 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 2: you damaging and undermine it and uprooting everything that I've 600 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 2: worked so hard for since I've been home, and just recently, 601 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: I claim that freedom back. On my forty second birthday 602 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: November third, I woke up and I said, you know what, 603 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,479 Speaker 2: this chapter forty two is going to represent freedom, true 604 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 2: freedom with themself and I'm getting back to me, putting 605 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: in to me, and I'm not about to let no 606 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: prison or even being exonerated to find my sense of freedom. 607 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: Well, I wish you all the best on your journey, 608 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: all the best of everything, and I hope this means 609 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: you'll be making more music too. Is that fair to assume? 610 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on major platforms, I'm everywhere. I'm back creating. 611 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 2: Michelle is actually on the first song that I recorded 612 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 2: when I came home is remember Me. We have a 613 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 2: video of add on YouTube reality with what whole. 614 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 3: Have I have to just brag on Chris for just 615 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 3: a minute. He's a brilliant writer. And that video that 616 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 3: he was just talking about he was released in mid 617 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 3: April twenty twenty. He recorded this about a month later. 618 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 3: I mean, just to think about that whirlwind he was 619 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 3: going through and then you see what he was able 620 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 3: to put together in just a few weeks. If you 621 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 3: watch that video, remember me, it's mind boggling. I mean, 622 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 3: it's just the tip of the iceberg of his talent. 623 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to be sure to have your music, 624 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: your YouTube channel, and Instagram linked in the episode description 625 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: for everyone to follow. And with that, we're going to 626 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: go to closing arguments. First of all, thank you for 627 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: being here and sharing this remarkable story. And then I'm 628 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: going to switch my microphone off, kick back in my 629 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: chair with my headphones on, and close my eyes and 630 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: just listen to anything else you want to share with 631 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: me and our incredible audience. So Michelle, why don't you 632 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: go first, and then just hand the mic off to 633 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: Chris and he'll take us off into the sunset. 634 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: I think an important takeaway is that people get involved 635 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 3: in elections to an extent, thinking about, oh what president 636 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 3: am I going to elect? What congressman? But it's really 637 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 3: important to look at what judges are on the ballot, 638 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 3: and it might be a little more difficult to know 639 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 3: which judge is the right judge to elect. So go 640 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 3: seek out information from your local innocence project or your 641 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 3: local public defender's office and seek advice about who will 642 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 3: be a fair judge on that ballot, because I think 643 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 3: something that's overlooked is the power of judges here in 644 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 3: our country at the state court level. Our judges are elected. 645 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 3: They are politicians like anyone else at that point, and 646 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 3: they will decide cases based on their ideology, and that 647 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 3: can lead to wrongful convictions, and it did here, and 648 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 3: so it's very important to educate yourself on who to 649 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 3: elect and pay attention to those elections to not just 650 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 3: the president and the congressman. I think Chris's case is 651 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 3: a case in point for that, and Chris's case points 652 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 3: out also tunnel vision and what that can do. This 653 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 3: often happens in court cases and in wrongful conviction cases, 654 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 3: but this can happen in everyday life too. You hear 655 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 3: just in your everyday encounters. You hear some gossip of 656 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 3: something crazy, You hear bits and pieces, and you form 657 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 3: a conclusion, and then when you hear a few days 658 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 3: later the full story or the other person's side to it, 659 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 3: what actually happened is completely different. Or you hear a 660 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 3: news headline of a world event and it seems unbelievable 661 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 3: or maybe very believable to you and you start leaping 662 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 3: to conclusions based on that, and then time plays out 663 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 3: and there's more to the story. So I think it's 664 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 3: just very important in life. These wrongful convictions teach us this. 665 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 3: Don't jump to conclusions, don't jump down those tunnels and 666 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 3: have your decisions made up so early that you can't 667 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 3: have an open mind to hearing things out, hearing what 668 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 3: the bigger picture might be. I think overall people would 669 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 3: have more peaceful lives, the world would be a more 670 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 3: peaceful place. Certainly there would be less wrongful convictions. I mean, 671 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 3: it's just an important concept to learn that Chris's case 672 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: teaches about hear all sides, look at objective facts, educate yourself, 673 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 3: and then form your conclusions. 674 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: I just want to say in close, and it's not 675 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 2: about guilt, it's not about innocence. It's about us just 676 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 2: plan our part to just contribute to the goodness out 677 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 2: the world. Everybody make mistakes, whether it's the defendant on 678 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 2: the prosecution, the judges, the pillaricle. Everybody make mistakes, but 679 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: it's about what we do afterwards. It's like you can 680 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 2: think about that storm I went through, but we're still 681 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 2: talking about that storm right now and because we made 682 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,439 Speaker 2: it out that storm. Right, It's about what we do now, 683 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: It's about what we learned while we was in the 684 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 2: midst of that storm. We hear this so so often, 685 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 2: it's so common, right. Would it stopped next year, five 686 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: years from now, two years from now. Probably not. But 687 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 2: we just got to do our part because each one 688 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: of us can make a difference. How we need is 689 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 2: that one opportunity. 690 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ron for Conviction. You can 691 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 692 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: one week early by subscribing to the Lava for Good 693 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, 694 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kathleen fa as well as my fellow 695 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn. The 696 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR 697 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across 698 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at 699 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at 700 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava 701 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one