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Speaker 1: Have you ever wanted a safe space where you can

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Speaker 1: just exist, where, for a moment in time, you can

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Speaker 1: be you, with all the intricacies and parts of you

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Speaker 1: that people don't always understand. Welcome to in the deep

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Speaker 1: stories that shape us. I'm your host, Zach Stafford, and

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Speaker 1: each episode we create a space to be you, all

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Speaker 1: of you and all your messy and complicated glory. Every

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Speaker 1: story shares what it means to be a black and

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Speaker 1: Latin X man living with different hardships, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: struggle of identity, discrimination, or health, and how they've managed

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Speaker 1: to push forward despite the circumstance. We hope to get closer,

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Speaker 1: even IF's just a little to a road of healing

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Speaker 1: and understanding. Hey, everyone, welcome back. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about something that feels personal to me and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: many of you listening to the show. I'm a black

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Speaker 1: man from the South, and my whole life I have

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Speaker 1: felt like I've been living between two borders. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about the borders that necessarily physically divide to

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Speaker 1: neighboring countries. I'm talking about borders that people like me

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Speaker 1: learn to navigate daily, the border of two perspectives to

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Speaker 1: ethnic groups to graph our own story. Meet John Paul Brammer.

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Speaker 1: He's a calumnist and an author. His story really stands

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Speaker 1: out to me because he's a combination of so many

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Speaker 1: identities like myself. He's Mexican, he's American, he's both in

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Speaker 1: neither all at the same time, and he infuses his

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Speaker 1: work with the same idea that we can be who

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Speaker 1: we are, even if that's a combination of many things

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Speaker 1: that may feel like contradictions to some. I am a

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Speaker 1: person from rural Oklahoma. I grew up in a Mexican family.

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Speaker 1: My dad is not Mexican, but I don't know that

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Speaker 1: side of my family very well. Aside from my dad,

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Speaker 1: I'm very close with my mom's side of the family.

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Speaker 1: We grew up in a very rural part of the country.

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Speaker 1: My sister and I did very isolated, kind of high

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Speaker 1: up on a hill, not a lot of other houses

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Speaker 1: near us, very quiet, very flat, very calm, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time very boring. Um. I spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time at my Aboilo's house, this little place called

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Speaker 1: cash c A. Me and my cousins would go out

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Speaker 1: to the backyard. We would play with the concrete in

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Speaker 1: like the pulverized powdery form that my boilos had. We

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Speaker 1: would play in the garden. We would get fine, nice

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Speaker 1: sticks to hit each other with. We would tinker with

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Speaker 1: the old piano that they had, this really horrible dusty

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Speaker 1: dying piano that they had for like years and years

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Speaker 1: and years. I would sit at this desk and I

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Speaker 1: would tinker with the junk that my Boilo put in there,

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Speaker 1: so it was like big gummy racers screws, little metal

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Speaker 1: bits and ends wires. Uh. We went to tech this

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Speaker 1: quite a bit, which is where they had raised my mom.

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Speaker 1: My Mexican family has roots in Chihuahua, Mexico, but they

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Speaker 1: always saw Texas as their big homeland, and so we

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Speaker 1: were there all the time because both my parents worked.

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Speaker 1: My dad was a salesman and my mom taught English

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Speaker 1: at the high school. Growing up, I was just a

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Speaker 1: board Mexican, unknowingly gay child, just trying to get through

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Speaker 1: my days. Sometimes borders are there for better or worse.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time we don't realize that they're even

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Speaker 1: being created. John Paul explains what these cultural moments meant

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Speaker 1: for him as a kid growing up as Mexican, as American,

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Speaker 1: and what role these memories played and shaping his identity

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Speaker 1: as an adult. They think, when we're children, there's this

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Speaker 1: narrow window of time where we're more like animals than people,

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Speaker 1: and we don't have to question everything. Everything just is

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Speaker 1: what it is and it gets served to us and

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Speaker 1: it does and we don't think of things. It's terribly complicated.

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Speaker 1: We used to do the feast day of our lative

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Speaker 1: Quadaloupe every December. I would wake up really really early.

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Speaker 1: My Boilos would take me down to Texas and we

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Speaker 1: would go to the little church where they had regularly

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Speaker 1: used to attend Mass, and we would have this really

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Speaker 1: interesting feast day where everyone would bring food from their

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Speaker 1: house and they would have the don Santez, which is

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Speaker 1: people dressed up as like as tech dancers and the

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Speaker 1: feathers and the regalia, and they would dance down the

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Speaker 1: aisle of this Catholic church and it was very visually jarring,

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Speaker 1: very like audio wise too. There were a lot of

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Speaker 1: weird sounds, but you don't think about that as a kid.

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Speaker 1: You just think like, oh, they're dancing and they look pretty,

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Speaker 1: and I'm in this building and we're gonna eat some

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Speaker 1: good food later, and I wasn't trying to find where

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Speaker 1: I started and began in all of it. I was

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Speaker 1: just sort of enjoying it. And I think at some point, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: you think, wait, what am I? Who am? What's going

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Speaker 1: on here in Texas, which is, you know, part of

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Speaker 1: the United States. You have this really interesting display going

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Speaker 1: on in this Catholic church, and how do the people

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Speaker 1: in that church fit in with the United States versus

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Speaker 1: Mexico versus everything else that's happening. And I was so

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Speaker 1: thrilled by it. Everything felt so cool and it felt

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Speaker 1: like a discovery every day. But then you know, you

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Speaker 1: encounter a lot of things later in life that make

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Speaker 1: you more jaded, that makes you feel like, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: I don't really belong in all that. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: feel like you've been called to answer big questions about

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Speaker 1: your culture for years now, and you've been so entangled

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Speaker 1: in that kind of dance over and over, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it makes me think, where you go work in a

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Speaker 1: Mexican grocery store, can you tell the listeners about that

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Speaker 1: what happened there? It's very much pretty much raised by

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Speaker 1: my boilos. And one thing about my Boilos was just

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Speaker 1: that because I grew up in rural Oklahoma, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a whole lot of examples of what like,

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Speaker 1: what does them Mexican look like? What does a Mexican

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Speaker 1: American look like? What do Mexican people look like? The

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Speaker 1: whole world was my aboilos because they raised me. I

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Speaker 1: grew up with them. I was at their house all

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Speaker 1: the time, and so in my mind, that's what being

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Speaker 1: a Mexican was. And they introduced me to their world,

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Speaker 1: which is a world where Mexican isn't necessarily like an ethnicity.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like a class is what I was kind

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Speaker 1: of taught, which is like we would go to Texas

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Speaker 1: all the time and they're like, Nihole, Look all the Mexicans.

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Speaker 1: They make Christmas happen in this rich neighborhood. They put

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Speaker 1: up all the lights, they do the lawns, they clean everything,

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Speaker 1: They raise people's children. They they're the ones who are

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Speaker 1: the nannies, they're the ones who the gardeners, they're the plumbers,

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Speaker 1: they work in the kitchens. This is the world that

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Speaker 1: my aboilos had me interacting with on a day to

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Speaker 1: day basis, and it's the one that I carried with

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Speaker 1: me through most of my life. And I would say

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Speaker 1: it's only been in recent years in comparison to the

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Speaker 1: grand scheme of things as long as I've been alive,

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Speaker 1: that my narrative of Mexico and Mexicans and you know,

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Speaker 1: the Chicanos or whatever you want to call them, has

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Speaker 1: really been changed. Because I met, you know, like rich Mexicans.

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Speaker 1: I thought that I came from a place where everyone

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Speaker 1: in my culture is very poor, and so growing up

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Speaker 1: with my abolos um and feeling like I was in

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Speaker 1: conversation with them, and feeling like I was a part

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Speaker 1: of there, an extension of their legacy, I guess you

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Speaker 1: would say I was very troubled by the idea that, well, actually, no,

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Speaker 1: we don't have a lot in common. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't speak Spanish. I mean I do now, but I

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Speaker 1: couldn't make Mexican food. Growing up in such isolation in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: without a community, really, I didn't know how my people

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Speaker 1: quote unquote behaved, how we were around each other, what

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Speaker 1: it meant to be a real Mexican or whatever. Um

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Speaker 1: And that existential crisis led me to take a job

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Speaker 1: at this tortilla factory down the road. And it was

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Speaker 1: at that tortillo factory where I learned a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of things, and a lot of things I learned actually

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot to do with like my culture,

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Speaker 1: heritage or ethnicity. It had a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: just like what it means to be a worker, what

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Speaker 1: it means to be treated like you're less than and

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Speaker 1: at the same time hold all the privileges I held,

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Speaker 1: just because a lot of my coworkers, even though we

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Speaker 1: came from the same culture, we had some shifferent experiences.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are some people who are like some

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Speaker 1: of them are undocumented, um, some of them could barely

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Speaker 1: speak English. And it just really highlighted to me, I

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Speaker 1: guess what a frail project identity and culture is, because

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Speaker 1: there's just hardly a roof you can build that will

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Speaker 1: put even two people together because experiences are so different

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Speaker 1: and everything is so complicated nuance that it was really

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Speaker 1: my initiation into my journey of understanding. As you're talking,

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Speaker 1: you know, I can only relate through my p o

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Speaker 1: V of being a black Southern kid growing up and

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of rule Tennessee. And as you begin

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Speaker 1: to realize you are a person and that you are

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Speaker 1: a person that moves to the world through certain cultures

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Speaker 1: and spaces and places. You very quickly, especially when you're queer,

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Speaker 1: you realize you don't fit into those places, that these

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Speaker 1: boxes that are being assigned to everyone else you don't

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Speaker 1: really fit in. And there's this existential crisis of like,

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Speaker 1: I don't fit, so do I belong? And if I

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Speaker 1: don't belong, where do I belong to? And for you,

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Speaker 1: as like a young queer you know, Latin, next person,

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Speaker 1: that seems very frustrating in Oklahoma, in a tortilla factory,

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Speaker 1: It's frustrating to me that identity is such a project,

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Speaker 1: and that figuring out who you are, what you are,

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Speaker 1: how you should call yourself. It's also subject to trends

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Speaker 1: to how culture changes, to how language changes. And I

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Speaker 1: eventually had to arrive at a place where I became

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Speaker 1: more agnostic than I ever thought I would be about

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Speaker 1: where I come from and who I am, because the

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Speaker 1: only things I found that can't really be changed or

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Speaker 1: taken from me are my memories and my time with

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Speaker 1: my willows growing up, and those are the things that

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Speaker 1: people can't challenge. And so I've I've lived there or

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Speaker 1: and more lately trying starting to see my boilos you know,

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Speaker 1: my Boilos no longer with me, but through I think

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Speaker 1: a more accurate lens of like people rather than placeholders

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Speaker 1: of like, well, that's my culture, that's my heritage, that's

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Speaker 1: my ethnicity, whatever it is. I think it's more complicated

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Speaker 1: than that, and so starting to look at them more

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Speaker 1: as like actual human beings with dreams of their own

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Speaker 1: and less of this like immigrant narrative that so often

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Speaker 1: gets placed on people like them, where they're just sort

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Speaker 1: of like their job is to be the people who

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Speaker 1: make a better life for their grandchildren, you know. And

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Speaker 1: that narrative is so embedded in American culture that even

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Speaker 1: when I thought I was critiquing it, I think I

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Speaker 1: was kind of low key buying into it at the

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Speaker 1: same time. And so now I'm looking back and I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that maybe a lot of things my Boila

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Speaker 1: did wasn't like Mexican culture. I think she was just weird.

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Speaker 1: John Paul's a Boilos were the first heroes he encoultured

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Speaker 1: in this coming of age story. But like any good story,

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Speaker 1: it's made up of your good guys and bad guys.

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Speaker 1: And I think to a certain extent, we're all taught

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Speaker 1: that good triubes over evil, and it can become part

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Speaker 1: of our own missions to fight for the right things

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Speaker 1: against the people that are doing wrong. But what happens

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Speaker 1: when bad guys aren't all bad, but rather complicated. During

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Speaker 1: a visit to his hometown, John Paul opened up a

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Speaker 1: dating app only to find that his high school bully,

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Speaker 1: who had once made life so difficult for him, was

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Speaker 1: also on the app and presumably gay. Talk about complicated

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Speaker 1: with this person, this person who in my life such

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Speaker 1: a living hell. I realized that I had kind of

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Speaker 1: assumed a lot of things about him, and I had

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Speaker 1: sort of wanted to paint him in a certain light,

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Speaker 1: because you never wanted to think that someone who was

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Speaker 1: so cruel to you, who could have done such horrible

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Speaker 1: things to you, has something in common with you. And

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Speaker 1: so both of us being closeted gay people back then,

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Speaker 1: it makes me feel like that's not fair. I had

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Speaker 1: this perfect villain set up for this story where I

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Speaker 1: could understand myself as the victim of everything, and I

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with with that experience. I think

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Speaker 1: I was very interested in looking in the ways that

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Speaker 1: I wanted this person to be one dimensional. I wanted

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Speaker 1: this person to be my perfect monster, because I had

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Speaker 1: actually built so many other things around that idea. I

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Speaker 1: had built the idea of needing to be successful, of

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Speaker 1: needing to be better, needing to be the smartest person

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Speaker 1: in the room, the funniest person in the room, all

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Speaker 1: these other things in a quest for what. And the

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Speaker 1: answer is, like any monster that gets made, it's there

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Speaker 1: to represent the anxieties, there to represent all the things

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Speaker 1: that you're trying to run from. And so I was

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Speaker 1: using that image of him as fuel to keep me going.

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Speaker 1: And I thought that if I took that image away,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be as good anymore. I wouldn't have a

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Speaker 1: reason to be pushing myself the way I'm pushing myself.

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Speaker 1: It's masochistic in a way. It's just not health. But

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Speaker 1: I found that I was afraid to dispose of that

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Speaker 1: monster in a way because I thought, well, who am

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Speaker 1: I without that monster? And for me, it's amplified by

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Speaker 1: being formally Catholic, being raised in the Church, because you know,

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Speaker 1: growing up, I was certainly taught that there is a

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Speaker 1: virtuous and cleansing element to pain, to suffering that I

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Speaker 1: think that Catholicism is very interested in telling you that

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Speaker 1: pain is worth it that it means something. I remember

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Speaker 1: in my elementary school it was a thought that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the more you suffer in life like the martyrs, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can get years taken off your purgatory.

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Speaker 1: You can skip the middleman and go to heaven. You

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Speaker 1: can win a quicker, better eternal life by being in pain.

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Speaker 1: And so for me, those themes stuck with me. And

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Speaker 1: that's the funny thing about themes. Even though I formally

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Speaker 1: distanced myself from the church, I have thought of myself

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Speaker 1: as a Christian or a Catholic in a very long time.

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Speaker 1: Those ideas have stuck with me and they appear all

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Speaker 1: the time. Making a conscious decision to opt out of

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Speaker 1: some or even all, of the cultural and religious groups

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Speaker 1: we belong to and create new ones is not only

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Speaker 1: incredibly difficult, but very scary. John Paul took the scary

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Speaker 1: and flipped it on its head, using sad tire to

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Speaker 1: create his own safe space with Ola Poppy and advice

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Speaker 1: column in our book, where people can write in and

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Speaker 1: ask for pointers on just about anything. Ola Poppy is

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Speaker 1: a space where John Paul can express himself and spread hope,

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Speaker 1: but also guide others and their very own identity journey.

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Speaker 1: Being on the receiving end of so much advice through

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Speaker 1: the years, through his family and through his religion, I

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Speaker 1: was curious, how does he approach his safe space given

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Speaker 1: that he's received so many bad suggestions in the past.

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Speaker 1: It's technically about other people. It's people complete strangers writing

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Speaker 1: to me about their experiences and then me taking that

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Speaker 1: letter and using my own stories or using my own

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Speaker 1: voice and kind of throwing myself into it. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that's what excites me about the project. And

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Speaker 1: it's my longest ongoing project of my life. You know,

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Speaker 1: I can't. I can barely hold a job for longer

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Speaker 1: than a year. So it's amazing that Ala Poppy is

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Speaker 1: still alive. But I've received so much bad advice over

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Speaker 1: my lifetime. I think the funniest answer to this would

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Speaker 1: be to not download Grinder, just because, I mean, talk

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Speaker 1: about a life that has been shaped by Grinder. It's mine.

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Speaker 1: It it led me to some really interesting avenues. But

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Speaker 1: you know, like I think I came out in the

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Speaker 1: very like love is Love um read equality Facebook photo

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Speaker 1: filter kind of era where you know, we hadn't had

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Speaker 1: marriage equality yet, and that really dominant strain of popular

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Speaker 1: mainstream gay activism had that sort of instant am friendly,

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Speaker 1: very bubbly, very hopeful, very optimistic, but at the same

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Speaker 1: time so traditional and was such an appeal to sort

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Speaker 1: of like sis hetero values. So a lot of it

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Speaker 1: was just like, yes, I'm gay, but that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that I am a slut, that doesn't mean that I

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Speaker 1: act like a woman. It was very that and that

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Speaker 1: was way more socially acceptable as messaging back then than

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Speaker 1: it is now. And so I got a lot of

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Speaker 1: advice right after I came out that was along those lines,

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Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, yeah, welcome to being gay. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to act like those sissies like you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of advice just about like making sure that

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Speaker 1: I was appealing to the right people, that I was

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Speaker 1: being an upstanding, virtuous gay person. It's so striking to

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Speaker 1: me that me coming out at that time in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: I was introduced to advice that nowadays would be unthinkable,

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Speaker 1: but back then it was popular. So I would say

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Speaker 1: I got a lot of bad advice in I was

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Speaker 1: going through some columns of yours today and I came

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Speaker 1: across one that actually fits perfectly with what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: and it was from two has A nineteen I think,

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Speaker 1: and it was a out magazine and the columns out

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Speaker 1: and it was a reader writing in saying that they

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Speaker 1: were it should be positive and depressed. And what was

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Speaker 1: so interesting about the story is that they had disclosed

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Speaker 1: their status to a friend and a friend said to them,

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Speaker 1: it's not that big of a deal being paused, and

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Speaker 1: it was really confusing for this person. You answered this

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Speaker 1: letter as someone of the side positive in a really

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Speaker 1: compassionate way. Do you remember this letter and talk to

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Speaker 1: me about what made you want to take this letter on.

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Speaker 1: There's such a stigma around it. There's a moral dimension

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Speaker 1: to it. There are people who, you know, even when

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Speaker 1: they're not blaming you, kind of sound like they're saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you should have been a little bit of a better

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Speaker 1: person and that wouldn't have happened to you. That sentiment

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Speaker 1: is so common. And so I really felt something for

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Speaker 1: this letter writer because I wanted to be a voice

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Speaker 1: that said, actually, yes, I hear you, and this is

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Speaker 1: important and it does matter. It's part of your life.

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Speaker 1: And just validating that for them was important for me

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Speaker 1: because sometimes the best advice for me anyway is really

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Speaker 1: just a conversation with someone who accepts your terms of

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Speaker 1: what matters and what doesn't. If you say it matters,

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Speaker 1: then it matters. And I think that that's what a

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Speaker 1: good friend so and a lot of times, an Ola Poppy,

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Speaker 1: I'm not always out to fix anyone's life. Sometimes I'm

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Speaker 1: just out to be a good friend, like someone at

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Speaker 1: a bar that you can talk to and I'll talk

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Speaker 1: back and maybe you feel better at the end of it.

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Speaker 1: And regardless of how complicated the subject matter is, like

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Speaker 1: in this case they're dealing with HIV status, I want

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Speaker 1: to give that to as many people as I can.

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Speaker 1: What struck me about this rereading it today was your

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Speaker 1: ability to comfort someone in real time saying I know

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Speaker 1: what you're going through is complicated. You're sad, you're going

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Speaker 1: through all these emotions, and what must not feel good

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Speaker 1: is someone telling you those things are not valid. And

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Speaker 1: that's like what everyone should remember when someone comes to

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Speaker 1: you for advice or help, you should always say, I

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Speaker 1: hear you, I see you, and you're gonna be okay.

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Speaker 1: And you know, for us, we're like black and brown

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Speaker 1: men dealing in the world with a lot of HIV

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Speaker 1: around us at all times. So you know, it's important

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Speaker 1: for us to always remember that, like we're gonna be okay,

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Speaker 1: especially in these conversations like if you are positive, there's

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Speaker 1: access to care. If you're not, there's prep. There's so

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Speaker 1: much out there, like you deserve to exactly to live

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Speaker 1: a life. It's messy if you need So before I

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Speaker 1: let you go, can I ask for some advice? Yes,

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Speaker 1: of course. Okay, So you share a similar sentiment to

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Speaker 1: me that the world kind of let's say it's complicated

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Speaker 1: right now. There's a lot going on. You've been answering

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Speaker 1: questions through the whole pandemic for the past few years,

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Speaker 1: giving people a little bit of hope to make it through.

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Speaker 1: What's your best advice right now to keep hope alive

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Speaker 1: for all of us as we keep going through all this.

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Speaker 1: What are you telling yourself? So I think of my past,

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Speaker 1: and I think about how I've really risen to every

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Speaker 1: occasion that's been put in front of me when it

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Speaker 1: was put in front of me, and how people tend

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Speaker 1: to become all together different beasts when they actually have

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Speaker 1: to cross that bridge, when they actually have to come

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Speaker 1: face to face with something they're afraid of. Um. So

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Speaker 1: realize that I'm actually kind of a more competent person

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Speaker 1: than I've ever given myself credit for. And I think

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Speaker 1: most people are like that. I think most people are

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Speaker 1: maybe a bit stronger than they think they are, and

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Speaker 1: so you just need to be able to trust yourself

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Speaker 1: that I think that there will be good things in

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Speaker 1: there somewhere, and I think I'll be able to find

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Speaker 1: them for me. That really helps me every day. For

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Speaker 1: John Paul and so many people living amongst these borders,

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Speaker 1: the borders of geography, of identity, of culture. Knowing who

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Speaker 1: we are and where we fit in can be a

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Speaker 1: lifelong search, but evolving into ourselves and our own story

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Speaker 1: is often more important than the destination or checking a box.

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Speaker 1: Knowing that you are healthy, knowing your status, having peace

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Speaker 1: with embody and mind can be a bigger marker of identity,

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Speaker 1: and one I'm positive leads to a happier life in

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Speaker 1: the long run. This has been in the deep Stories

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Speaker 1: that shape us. Find this episode and others on the

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to podcasts. Don't forget to share, rate and review if

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Speaker 1: you enjoyed this conversation. The show is produced by Evan

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Speaker 1: Chien and mastered by James Foster. Our show researcher is

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Speaker 1: John and Raggio and our writer is Yvette Lopez. A

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Speaker 1: special shout out to our guest John Paul Brammer. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Zach Stafford