Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Do I hope that in your spare time you hung
Speaker 1: around in sweats? Yes? I do? Well, Yeah I am,
Speaker 1: I am okay, But yeah, I thought it was so
Speaker 1: appropriate and you made more of an effort than I've
Speaker 1: ever seen any money necessarily make in those situations, and
Speaker 1: I really appreciated it. I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is
Speaker 1: You and Me Both, where I get into some of
Speaker 1: today's biggest questions with people I admire. On today's episode,
Speaker 1: we're talking about the American Dream. What exactly do we
Speaker 1: mean when we say that? And is it still possible
Speaker 1: to achieve? You know, I think the American dream is
Speaker 1: still achievable, but I think we have our eyes wide
Speaker 1: open about how hard it is for so many people.
Speaker 1: There are all kinds of obstacles that have to be
Speaker 1: overcommon individual lives. And I'm interested not only in that,
Speaker 1: but also what do we need to do to change
Speaker 1: our economy and our society and our culture and our
Speaker 1: mindset to make sure more people have a chance to
Speaker 1: fulfill whatever they think is their American Dream. So I'm
Speaker 1: talking to three people today. Lorella pray Lee is a
Speaker 1: former dreamer. She's an advocate for immigrants and low income
Speaker 1: Americans and has an amazing story. Raj Chetty is an
Speaker 1: economist who studies opportunity. In other words, how do we
Speaker 1: help more people fulfill their dreams? What needs to be
Speaker 1: done to make that happen? But first, Tan France Now
Speaker 1: you Know. Tan is the fashion expert on Netflix's Queer Eye,
Speaker 1: which was rebooted in Team You Know. It's a really
Speaker 1: fun and heartwarming show. In each episode, Tan and the
Speaker 1: rest of the Fab five team hit the road to
Speaker 1: spend time with someone who is pursuing their dream or
Speaker 1: just trying to get by, and to give them a
Speaker 1: little boost. This show has made Tan a household name.
Speaker 1: He's one of the first openly gay South Asian and
Speaker 1: Muslim men on TV in the United States, and as
Speaker 1: you'll hear, he is completely charming. He lives in Salt
Speaker 1: Lake City, Utah, with his husband Rob and their two kids.
Speaker 1: He's author of the memoir Naturally Tan, I love that title.
Speaker 1: There were so many reasons why I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to him about the American dream. He recently became a
Speaker 1: US citizen, and because he spends so much time helping
Speaker 1: people live their own dreams, he has some pretty good
Speaker 1: insight into what it takes to, you know, have the
Speaker 1: American dream in the twenty one century. You know, let
Speaker 1: me start by congratulating you, because I know you became
Speaker 1: a US citizen this past June. I should what did
Speaker 1: that feel like? You know, I don't think I've still
Speaker 1: quite possessed it. I've been working on this for so long.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be an American citizen pretty much my
Speaker 1: whole life. Since I was a little boy and I
Speaker 1: was sat there watching American TV. I dreamt of this,
Speaker 1: and so the moment that it happened, I was so
Speaker 1: overcome with emotion that all I could do was eat
Speaker 1: donuts because that was the most American thing I could
Speaker 1: think of. I went to the donut shop down the
Speaker 1: street and eight donuts, and that was my version of
Speaker 1: being a true American. Well, I think that's a very
Speaker 1: American response, you know, to the emotion of the you know,
Speaker 1: of the minute. Um, Where were you actually sworn in
Speaker 1: in Salt Lake City, Utah, which is where I live
Speaker 1: right now. Well, now, explain how you went from New
Speaker 1: York to Salt Lake What was that connection? Well? I
Speaker 1: never heard of Utah, and quite honestly, when I tell
Speaker 1: my friends and family in England, they have no idea
Speaker 1: where it might be on the map. And so I
Speaker 1: was living in New York. I had a housemate who
Speaker 1: was from Salt Lake City, Utah, and he suggested that
Speaker 1: I go and visit. And I had no idea what
Speaker 1: it might be like, what it might look like. It
Speaker 1: sounded very country, and I was surprised to see that
Speaker 1: they have a proper city, and I fell in love
Speaker 1: with the city pretty much immediately. Within an hour, I
Speaker 1: decided I was going to make this my home. Was
Speaker 1: there something about Salt Lake that you felt connected to
Speaker 1: because of your you know, growing up in different cultures
Speaker 1: and different countries. You grew up in Britain, your parents
Speaker 1: or immigrants from Pakistan, you were raised Muslim. How did
Speaker 1: it come to be that going to Salt Lake, well
Speaker 1: known as a beautiful cosmopolitan city but also the home
Speaker 1: of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints,
Speaker 1: became the magnet for you. I don't know how honest
Speaker 1: you would like me to be. If it spent to
Speaker 1: be light hospital, I'm going to give you my deep,
Speaker 1: deep Okay, So my honest, honest answer is this, so
Speaker 1: you sin that I was a child of immigrants. I am.
Speaker 1: My parents came from Pakistan and Kashmir, India, respectively, and
Speaker 1: I was raised in the UK. And I don't know
Speaker 1: what experience you have with the South Asian community in
Speaker 1: the UK, but we are kind of seen as second
Speaker 1: lass citizens in that you wouldn't really take us home
Speaker 1: to meet your parents. If you were to date us,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't We would be the undesirable dating community. And
Speaker 1: that was definitely the case when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and especially after nine eleven and I was seven team
Speaker 1: and nine eleven happened. And so when I came to Utah,
Speaker 1: the reason why I seven in the first hour is
Speaker 1: because we went to a restaurant. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: it was at the time, but it turned out to
Speaker 1: be Chili's. And within an hour or so, I had
Speaker 1: had so many people just smile and ask where I
Speaker 1: was from, and somebody here on me during that time,
Speaker 1: and I had never experienced anything like it where my
Speaker 1: call at the color of my skin and my ethnicity
Speaker 1: seemed to be the thing that made people want to
Speaker 1: get to know me as opposed to make people not
Speaker 1: want to talk to me. And that thought so special. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting, and that was like almost immediate immediate.
Speaker 1: I really wanted to ask you. You know, this is
Speaker 1: not our nation's brightest moment. We are struggling with, you know,
Speaker 1: so much turmoil and so many challenges. What do I
Speaker 1: feel like officially to become an American at this pretty
Speaker 1: messy and divisive time? You know? I my husband asked me.
Speaker 1: My husband's name is Rob, and he asked me the
Speaker 1: same question. He said, does it feel weird after wanting
Speaker 1: this your whole life to get to the point where
Speaker 1: you are are now an American citizen? And we actually
Speaker 1: do have a lot to be ashamed of? And I
Speaker 1: say that as a true patriot. I and I do
Speaker 1: class myself as a patriot. Even though I'm an immigrant.
Speaker 1: I fought my whole life to be able to live here.
Speaker 1: I love this country, truly, I do, and it's sad
Speaker 1: that I became and during this time. However, I've always
Speaker 1: been an incredibly optimistic person my whole life. The thing
Speaker 1: that actually drives many people crazy is that I always
Speaker 1: see hope, even though sometimes I probably isn't very much. However,
Speaker 1: even now I see true hope, and so for me.
Speaker 1: I was excited to be able to vote this year.
Speaker 1: I thought, what better year than to get my citizenship
Speaker 1: when I can finally vote and encourage people to vote.
Speaker 1: And I've been encouraging people to vote for quite some time,
Speaker 1: but it didn't really mean enough when I wasn't able
Speaker 1: to vote myself and to say, I mean it with you.
Speaker 1: And so the way I see is, yes, it was
Speaker 1: a very strange year to become a citizen. However, I
Speaker 1: will forever remember it as the first time I voted
Speaker 1: was a time when I desperately wanted my vote to
Speaker 1: be here. Absolutely. Well. You know, since um, you've had
Speaker 1: the opportunity to criss cross our country. You have been
Speaker 1: all over America. You've met Americans. Oh wow, So you
Speaker 1: you really are talking with people literally on the ground,
Speaker 1: and you're having very personal conversations. I mean when you,
Speaker 1: you know, hold up somebody's pajamas and say, you know,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna have sex in these pajamas, and the
Speaker 1: stuff that you tell them, Um, you know, you're really
Speaker 1: in their lives in a way that most of us
Speaker 1: never get a chance to be. So how has that
Speaker 1: affected your feelings about you know, both the country and
Speaker 1: you know your place in it. It's been interesting going
Speaker 1: to places I've never been before. Within this country. I
Speaker 1: had lived here for ten years or nine years at
Speaker 1: the time when I got the job, and open to
Speaker 1: that point, i'd probably visited three or four states. I
Speaker 1: felt like I knew that you talking men too well enough.
Speaker 1: The New York I been too well enough. But going
Speaker 1: across the country has really opened my eyes, not just
Speaker 1: with where I go to universities across the country and
Speaker 1: do speaking engagements and speak with college students who are
Speaker 1: at that impressionable age and talk about what they're going through.
Speaker 1: And it's been interest in learning what has happened with
Speaker 1: their lives since two thousand eighteen. And it feels like
Speaker 1: so many people have fed up, they feel stuck in
Speaker 1: what they don't feel hid and that has been the
Speaker 1: most common interaction we've had with people, is that they
Speaker 1: don't feel seeing, they don't feel loved enough. That really
Speaker 1: resonates with me because I think when you sort of
Speaker 1: strip it all down, um, loving and being loved is
Speaker 1: at the core of the you know, human experience, and
Speaker 1: you see that with the people that you're working with
Speaker 1: and that you're visiting with. Do you get the sense
Speaker 1: that this divisiveness that we see in the country can
Speaker 1: be reconciled and healed with different attitudes, not just from leaders,
Speaker 1: but from all of us. I would like to believe.
Speaker 1: So I think that what Netflix did super well. And
Speaker 1: if this isn't just a sales pitch for Netflix, that
Speaker 1: believe me. I just truly believe they did this very well.
Speaker 1: They decided that they were going to bring back where
Speaker 1: I time when we knew that things were going to
Speaker 1: become more divided than they have been in a very
Speaker 1: long time, and so Netflix saw our community as the bridge.
Speaker 1: We get to speak with people in a way that
Speaker 1: most people aren't afforded. For example, I can speak with
Speaker 1: women without them feeling bettened at all by me. I
Speaker 1: can speak with men without them worrying that we might
Speaker 1: be trying to get their women or trying to compete
Speaker 1: for their job. We are a community that they're not
Speaker 1: majorly threatened by, and they're willing to open up to us,
Speaker 1: and we use our skills, which are very personal, as
Speaker 1: a vehicle to be able to have conversations. And so
Speaker 1: we are in a very fudge position where people will
Speaker 1: open up to us. More so than they would most
Speaker 1: other people. When I'm in somebody's closet and I'm seeing
Speaker 1: them in their underwear, they are in their most vulnerable state.
Speaker 1: I can ask them pretty much anything at that point
Speaker 1: and they'll likely answer. I think that that timing was crucial.
Speaker 1: Netflix saw us as the bridge between the Democrats and Republicans,
Speaker 1: quite honestly, and we went in with the mission we
Speaker 1: wanted to meet as many people who didn't sing from
Speaker 1: our hymn sheet that the people who had no interest
Speaker 1: ordinarily in hearing outside of the story. But when you're
Speaker 1: in your underwear, and you're probably more likely to tell
Speaker 1: me what you think because I've got you trapped, And
Speaker 1: that feels very special, and we put a face to
Speaker 1: what people may see as a threat. They don't understand
Speaker 1: our community, and the five of us represent many communities,
Speaker 1: and so they get a personal interaction with a person
Speaker 1: that they've probably never spoken to before. And so I'm
Speaker 1: able to say to somebody, when you vote for somebody
Speaker 1: like Trump, you are voting against me, You're voting against
Speaker 1: my people, you voting against everything that we represent. So
Speaker 1: it's not just a blind vote for a Republican. And
Speaker 1: I think that's My biggest concern with a lot of
Speaker 1: Americans who vote, they will vote for whoever it is,
Speaker 1: as long as it's their party. And I will never
Speaker 1: understand that. I don't think most Brits vote that way.
Speaker 1: If we don't like somebody, we're not going to vote
Speaker 1: with them, regardless of whether there are patty or not.
Speaker 1: And I wish that we had more of that mentality here,
Speaker 1: and so I feel the opportunity that we have with
Speaker 1: Queer I is to have those conversations and say, I
Speaker 1: am the person you're actually voting against. Here we're taking
Speaker 1: a quick break. Stay with us. When you think about,
Speaker 1: you know, Queer I and being part of it now,
Speaker 1: it's so much more than a makeover. It really is
Speaker 1: about meeting people where they are, giving them a boost,
Speaker 1: trying to give them some sense of meaning and purpose
Speaker 1: and even a financial boost. And I really love what
Speaker 1: the Fab five does for these folks that you meet,
Speaker 1: but it also kind of makes me sad that there
Speaker 1: are so many millions of people who will never meet you.
Speaker 1: Maybe they'll get you vicariously by watching the program. So
Speaker 1: have you thought about, you know, if you could waive
Speaker 1: the proverbial magic wand what are a couple of things
Speaker 1: that you think could be changed that would help more
Speaker 1: people than you'll ever possibly be able to get to.
Speaker 1: The one thing for me personally that I try to
Speaker 1: communicate as much as possible wherever ever I am, whether
Speaker 1: it be in person, on the show or if I'm
Speaker 1: doing TV, and I will always try and put this
Speaker 1: one agenda. All the things that we're offering are just
Speaker 1: as I've mentioned, for a vehicle to have a conversation
Speaker 1: and to really encourage a certain kind of self esteem
Speaker 1: in a person and to encourage them to see themselves
Speaker 1: as better than they believe they are. And the main
Speaker 1: thing I want people to take away is that we
Speaker 1: are incredibly mean to ourselves when we look in the mirror.
Speaker 1: The things that we think about ourselves are seldom things
Speaker 1: that people are thinking of us. And so to look
Speaker 1: in the mirror and remind ourselves and the things that
Speaker 1: are actually wonderful about us, the reason why we have
Speaker 1: friends and family who love us. I want people to
Speaker 1: realize that those things are so much more important than
Speaker 1: the new wardrobe I might give them, all the new
Speaker 1: sofa that Bobby might give them. They're just the things
Speaker 1: that make a good TV show our show is reminding
Speaker 1: them that they are so much more than they think
Speaker 1: they are, and so we're just kind of holding up
Speaker 1: a merrit to them and saying, look at you. I
Speaker 1: want you to tell me, basically, in a nutshell, what
Speaker 1: you think that everybody else sees in you that you
Speaker 1: clearly don't. Why do people love you? There's a reason why.
Speaker 1: But you went through that whole process yourself. I mean
Speaker 1: your memoir, naturally, Tan, you know, talks about your struggles
Speaker 1: and your conflicts and your doubts, and you know, very
Speaker 1: personal aspects of how you became who you are today.
Speaker 1: I mean, we see you, We see the confidence, the optimism,
Speaker 1: the joy in your life. But it wasn't always like that,
Speaker 1: was it. No. I think if anybody ever suggests that
Speaker 1: they have always been happy and that there's never a
Speaker 1: time when they've suffered hardship, I just wouldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: I think to get to the point where you can
Speaker 1: be as optimistic as I am, you have to have
Speaker 1: seen some bad things and experienced a lot. Then you
Speaker 1: you've overcome it, and you've overcome it through great strength.
Speaker 1: It does require great strength. There were times when I
Speaker 1: struggled with my businesses. When I first moved to America,
Speaker 1: I started my business as it was the American dream
Speaker 1: that I was desperate to fulfill, and I did. But
Speaker 1: it didn't get to that point without a few years
Speaker 1: of hallacious hard work and as a child going through
Speaker 1: the racism that we went through so regularly, and just
Speaker 1: then that there was light of the tunnel. Even though
Speaker 1: somebody may not have liked us for our skin color
Speaker 1: or religion, my sexuality, there was still so much more
Speaker 1: that I liked about myself, even if those strangers couldn't
Speaker 1: see it. And so that is the message I desperately
Speaker 1: want to push forward on the likes of CERA or
Speaker 1: any platform I have, is that yes, people may throw stones,
Speaker 1: but the one thing I say to everyone, I refused
Speaker 1: to be the reason I'm unhappy. No matter what has
Speaker 1: gone on in my life, I refused to be the
Speaker 1: reason I'm unhappy. They can say what they want. I
Speaker 1: have more control of my feelings than they do, and
Speaker 1: so I will find a way to make myself happy. Man,
Speaker 1: and I just have to thank you for being naturally
Speaker 1: you and talking with me today. I hope we get
Speaker 1: to meet in person at some point whenever the pandemic.
Speaker 1: We can I encrupt you. Go right ahead, Dan, I
Speaker 1: know that people, many people had their opinions on what
Speaker 1: you are during your campaign. I am not just saying
Speaker 1: this because I've adored you for my whole life. You
Speaker 1: looked wonderful. Here's the thing. I will mention this also,
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. It shouldn't matter. Trump turned up looking
Speaker 1: like a joke every time, and nobody seem to care
Speaker 1: that much. But you clearly made an effort. I love
Speaker 1: that you did so many times the full modoco look
Speaker 1: where you would go for a full blue or a
Speaker 1: full whatever. But I thought you looked regal almost. Do
Speaker 1: I hope that in your spare time you hung around
Speaker 1: in sweats? Yes, I do, but going okay, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it was so appropriate and you made more
Speaker 1: of an effort that I've ever seen any money necessarily
Speaker 1: make in those situations. And I really appreciated it. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you, I love you even more. Tan France is
Speaker 1: the author of Naturally Tan, a memoir. Season six of
Speaker 1: Queer Eye, which will be filmed in Austin, Texas, one
Speaker 1: of my favorite American cities is on hold due to
Speaker 1: the pandemic. But you can watch the most recent season,
Speaker 1: as well as his other show Next in Fashion on Netflix. Now,
Speaker 1: I'll be talking to Lorella pray Lee. Lorella is a
Speaker 1: dreamer who became a US citizen and she's an incredible organizer.
Speaker 1: I can speak from experience. I was lucky enough to
Speaker 1: have her working on my twenty sixteen presidential campaign and
Speaker 1: she was everywhere. No matter where I went, there she was.
Speaker 1: She just has a natural ability to draw people to
Speaker 1: her to the causes that she is advocating. She was
Speaker 1: born in Peru. Her parents brought her to the United
Speaker 1: States as a very young child for medical treatments, and
Speaker 1: you're going to hear about that now. At just thirty
Speaker 1: two years old, she's president of Community Change, an organization
Speaker 1: that empowers low income Americans to fight for a more
Speaker 1: just future for themselves, their children, and generations to come.
Speaker 1: As you're about to hear, Lurella is a kind of
Speaker 1: person who makes you want to get up and go
Speaker 1: out and change the world. Hello, Corella, how are you? Lorella?
Speaker 1: I am so excited to talk with you. It's been
Speaker 1: way too long. You are always on the front lines
Speaker 1: of trying to help people and trying to make change.
Speaker 1: Ange and maybe you could just give our listeners a
Speaker 1: little background of you know, how you ended up in
Speaker 1: the United States, and uh, you know what your life
Speaker 1: was like here. Yeah. I had a car accident when
Speaker 1: I was two and a half and that resulted in
Speaker 1: the amputation of my right leg. So for many years,
Speaker 1: we actually did a lot of trips between Peru and
Speaker 1: the States. And then my family decided to move here
Speaker 1: when I was ten years old. And I grew up
Speaker 1: in Connecticut, in New Melford, Connecticut. Of all the places
Speaker 1: my parents could have picked, that was their choice, you know.
Speaker 1: And then I got here and I was a young
Speaker 1: brown girl with one leg um navigating the world in
Speaker 1: a different language. And I then found out I was undocumented.
Speaker 1: You know, it didn't come until later. So it's been
Speaker 1: a lot of ups and downs, but I would say
Speaker 1: all of my downs have come with a tremendous opportunity
Speaker 1: to learn. Do you remember the moment when you learned
Speaker 1: you were undocumented and what that meant to you? I
Speaker 1: think it happened around your desire to apply for college, right,
Speaker 1: I mean it was it was devastating. I actually think
Speaker 1: I knew that I was undocumented long before I internalized
Speaker 1: what that meant. And I had had many conversations with
Speaker 1: my mother where I asked, you know, well, how come
Speaker 1: I can't do this, or how come we can't do this?
Speaker 1: And she would always say, oh, it's you know, you
Speaker 1: can't get a driver's license because you can't drive because
Speaker 1: of your leg I think really it was her way
Speaker 1: of protecting me. And when I found out I was undocumented,
Speaker 1: it was devastating. For that moment, and I would say
Speaker 1: for the next several years, I carried a lot of shame.
Speaker 1: I was really embarrassed and I was afraid. It was
Speaker 1: almost as if I thought that I was walking around
Speaker 1: and you know, I carried a label that said undocumented
Speaker 1: on my forehead. And you know, I remember I was driving.
Speaker 1: Anytime I drove and a police car showed up behind me,
Speaker 1: I would just my whole body, would my whole this
Speaker 1: whole state and physiology of my body would change. And
Speaker 1: I would very nervously begin to think about when is
Speaker 1: when is the earliest turn that I could make where
Speaker 1: the police would not follow me? And what about becoming
Speaker 1: a dreamer? Talk about you know, the movement, the dream act.
Speaker 1: You know, I walked into a room at a field
Speaker 1: planning meeting that United we Dream, the largest immigrant youth
Speaker 1: let network where I spent a good really was my
Speaker 1: first political home in this country. And a lot of
Speaker 1: young people were wearing these shirts that said undocumented and unafraid,
Speaker 1: and I was just looking at them, like, I don't
Speaker 1: know what world you're living in. I am very much
Speaker 1: undocumented and I am very afraid. And I learned there
Speaker 1: that organizing is the art of the possible, and to
Speaker 1: believe that, even though there were many people who have
Speaker 1: been fighting on our behalf and telling our stories, that
Speaker 1: if we wanted to change the laws in this country,
Speaker 1: if we wanted to fight for citizenship for everyone, then
Speaker 1: we had to step into our full power and our
Speaker 1: full truth, reject the stories that had been told about us,
Speaker 1: and begin to paint a different narrative. I know that
Speaker 1: you know, you got married in you got your green card,
Speaker 1: You were then among the group sworn in as American
Speaker 1: citizens by President Obama in during this time that you
Speaker 1: were undocumented, and now, of course as an American citizen,
Speaker 1: how have you thought of yourself as an American and
Speaker 1: how have you understood the American dream? How has it
Speaker 1: how has it been defined for you? And buy you.
Speaker 1: So to me, the most powerful part of the American
Speaker 1: dream is the way that it challenges each one of
Speaker 1: us to reshape and reimagine what our country can be.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think being American is realizing
Speaker 1: that the truth that this country holds might be self evident,
Speaker 1: but they are not self executing. How do we look
Speaker 1: at America every day and say I will not settle
Speaker 1: for that because I know another world is possible. To me,
Speaker 1: that is really the American dream. And the fact that
Speaker 1: I get to do that as someone who was not
Speaker 1: born here but who is committed to making all of
Speaker 1: these things real, that maybe that is only possible in
Speaker 1: a place like the United States. It's important to keep
Speaker 1: the movement going, to keep the organizing going, to make
Speaker 1: the case even if people get discouraged or disappointed, to
Speaker 1: persuade them not to give up. So what are you
Speaker 1: seeing out there? Oh man? Um? We are living through
Speaker 1: a really hard period right now, nearly for intent Black
Speaker 1: and Hispanic households right now with children are struggling to
Speaker 1: feed their families, and so that is consuming people's minds
Speaker 1: because parents are having to make very hard choices about
Speaker 1: how to make sure that they can stay in their apartment,
Speaker 1: how to make sure that they can feed their families,
Speaker 1: And to me, all of these things are a policy choice.
Speaker 1: Mass unemployment is a policy choice. Right food and security
Speaker 1: is a policy choice. Mass evictions is a policy choice.
Speaker 1: And so I think that people are living through and
Speaker 1: we are going to continue to lift through this very
Speaker 1: hard period. And I also feel like there's a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of hope. You have always epitomized that to me,
Speaker 1: and you shared a story in the past about how
Speaker 1: when you lost your leg in that accident when you
Speaker 1: were a two year old, your parents told people not
Speaker 1: to help you. My dad Yeah, um, your dad said,
Speaker 1: you know no, she's going to stand up on her own.
Speaker 1: She's going to get around on her own. And somehow
Speaker 1: in my head I see this analogy because these days,
Speaker 1: staying strong and telling people stay strong and keep going
Speaker 1: and let's try to make a big change is quite
Speaker 1: an ask. That Trump administration has done so much to
Speaker 1: insult and undermine and demean immigrants, separating kids at the border,
Speaker 1: restricting DOCCA, demonizing people list obviously goes on and on.
Speaker 1: So how do you personally find the strength to get
Speaker 1: back up every day? Keep going, keep fighting, and keep
Speaker 1: using your extraordinary voice and example to convince others to
Speaker 1: do that with you. I mean, part of me believes
Speaker 1: that some of it was my father's training from when
Speaker 1: I was very little, that the you you can do
Speaker 1: this exercise every time I fell, and I felt a
Speaker 1: lot when I was learning how to walk with a
Speaker 1: prosthetic leg, when I was moving around with crutches when
Speaker 1: I was little. I remember, in particular, a moment when
Speaker 1: we were at maybe it was a carnival, and I
Speaker 1: fell and one of my shoes also fell off, and
Speaker 1: I was I was in a lot of pain, and
Speaker 1: all of these people were rushing towards me, you know,
Speaker 1: to help me up, and he just sort of he
Speaker 1: had this motion, just sort of pushed people away just
Speaker 1: by looking at them and moving his hand. And I
Speaker 1: was angry. I was angry that he didn't help me up,
Speaker 1: And you know, I think about it now and I'm
Speaker 1: just grateful, you know, I think that it was lessons
Speaker 1: learned for the future, and those lessons learned we're about
Speaker 1: remembering that in life, we are going to fall, and
Speaker 1: we're going to get up, and we're going to fall again,
Speaker 1: and you're going to get up again. Um now we
Speaker 1: we can make the getting up easier. And that's what
Speaker 1: gives me hope. This believe that there's the world as
Speaker 1: it should be, and then there was the world as
Speaker 1: it is, and we as organizers, we as people, if
Speaker 1: we vote, if we make our voices heard, we can
Speaker 1: play a role in closing that gap, the gap that
Speaker 1: exists between the world as it should be in the
Speaker 1: world as it is, and in this time in particular,
Speaker 1: because of all that the pandemic has exposed. My dream
Speaker 1: is that we take the pain and the fear and
Speaker 1: the anguish that so many people are feeling right now,
Speaker 1: particularly in black, brown and immigrant communities, and that we
Speaker 1: use that to create an America where people feel seen
Speaker 1: and heard and where everyone can thrive. And if we
Speaker 1: believe that that is possible, then we can fight to
Speaker 1: overturn all these structural barriers that have been put in place,
Speaker 1: and we could make it easier for people to stand
Speaker 1: up after they fall, because that is a part of life.
Speaker 1: I love that, Lorella. I am in your corner. I'm
Speaker 1: one of your biggest fans and admirers, and uh, I
Speaker 1: just can't wait to see what you do next. Keep
Speaker 1: that energy, keep that optimism, keep that sense of hopefulness
Speaker 1: in the face of setbacks, because it's contagious when people
Speaker 1: see you do it and then they feel like I'm
Speaker 1: going to do it too. So thank you, my friend,
Speaker 1: Thank you for talking to me today. Thank you for
Speaker 1: more information on the organization that Lorella leads, Community Change,
Speaker 1: and the work they're doing on voter engagement, immigrant rights,
Speaker 1: and affordable childcare. Please visit community change dot org. Tan
Speaker 1: and Lorella each have their own American Dream success stories,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, lots of Americans are struggling
Speaker 1: just to get by. There's food insecurity, in other words,
Speaker 1: people don't have enough food. The jobs that have been law,
Speaker 1: many of them haven't come back and may not come back.
Speaker 1: People have burned through their savings trying to keep themselves afloat.
Speaker 1: You know, for many people, the American Dream has never
Speaker 1: felt more out of reach. That's why I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk with economists Roger Chetty. You know, he is the
Speaker 1: expert on this issue. Last year, the Atlantic magazine ran
Speaker 1: a profile of him called the Economist who Could Fix
Speaker 1: the American Dream. Well, that caught my attention, So let's
Speaker 1: get right to it. What do we mean, what do
Speaker 1: you mean when we talk about the American dream? And
Speaker 1: what about it needs fixing? Yeah, So, one way I
Speaker 1: think about it just from a personal perspective, I was
Speaker 1: a kid who grew up in India until I was
Speaker 1: eight years old, uh came to the US at that point,
Speaker 1: and the image many people have of America is it's
Speaker 1: a place where, no matter what your background is, if
Speaker 1: you work hard, you have a shot of making it
Speaker 1: that there's kind of no ceiling, right, And to me,
Speaker 1: that's at least one key aspect of the American dream.
Speaker 1: And so I then think about how do you measure
Speaker 1: that in the data? Are we living up to that aspiration?
Speaker 1: Are we really a land of opportunity where anyone can
Speaker 1: rise up? And one way people have thought about measuring
Speaker 1: the concept historically is that America is a place where
Speaker 1: most kids can expect to go on to have a
Speaker 1: higher standard of living than their parents did. And so
Speaker 1: we did a study a couple of years ago where
Speaker 1: we tried to measure a very simple statistic, what fraction
Speaker 1: of kids go on to earn more than their parents
Speaker 1: did when we measure both kids incomes and their parents
Speaker 1: incomes in their mid thirties around when they're forty years old.
Speaker 1: And what we found, I think was a really disturbing
Speaker 1: and worrisome pattern, which is back in the middle of
Speaker 1: the last century. If you look at kids born, say
Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties or nineteen fifties, of kids went
Speaker 1: on to earn more than their parents did. But if
Speaker 1: you look at what's happened over time, you see a
Speaker 1: dramatic feeding of the American dream. We find that for
Speaker 1: kids who are turning thirty today, there's only a fifty
Speaker 1: fifty shot of earning more than your parents did. And
Speaker 1: so it's that sort of trend that I think animates
Speaker 1: my interest in figuring out how you can make America
Speaker 1: land of opportunity once again. You were part of a
Speaker 1: team that built something called an Opportunity Atlas. I just
Speaker 1: love that title, which maps the level of opportunity in
Speaker 1: our country literally down to neighborhoods. And part of what's
Speaker 1: so remarkable about this Opportunity Atlas is that you can
Speaker 1: see just a few streets separate areas where a kid
Speaker 1: is likely to grow up and improve his or her
Speaker 1: economic status from areas where a kid isn't. What makes
Speaker 1: some neighborhoods economically mobile, creating more opportunity and other neighborhoods
Speaker 1: less so, and maybe explain how you and your team
Speaker 1: were able to aggregate the data that created this opportunity ATLAS, Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely so. A lot of what we do is using
Speaker 1: big data, and so in this case, we used anonymized
Speaker 1: information from Census and Social Security and tax data. Information
Speaker 1: the government has to be essentially mapped the lives of
Speaker 1: millions of kids, tracing their outcomes in adulthood, their levels
Speaker 1: of income, college attendance rates, teenage birth rates, things like that,
Speaker 1: back to the neighborhoods in which they grew up. And specifically,
Speaker 1: what we were able to do analyzing data for twenty
Speaker 1: million families is compare kids who grew up in families
Speaker 1: at the same income level, and what we calculate is
Speaker 1: what are the odds of rising up for the kids,
Speaker 1: What are the chances they reached the middle class? What
Speaker 1: are the chances they earn you know, more than eighty
Speaker 1: thousand or hundred thousand dollars a year in adulthood? And so,
Speaker 1: as you noted, you find incredibly large differences across nearby
Speaker 1: neighborhoods and that from a social science perspective, is first
Speaker 1: of all, useful to note in its own right, because
Speaker 1: there's a great deal of effort in the federal government
Speaker 1: to try to reduce segregation and help families move to
Speaker 1: higher opportunity areas, and this kind of data can be
Speaker 1: really useful for supporting that sort of work. But it
Speaker 1: can also be useful to your question in understanding what
Speaker 1: is it that makes opportunity more available in some neighborhoods
Speaker 1: relative to others. And we've looked at a variety of
Speaker 1: different factors and basically distill it to three or four
Speaker 1: things that seem like systematic strong patterns. So the first
Speaker 1: is that more mixed income areas tend to have higher
Speaker 1: levels of upward mobility. Uh second major factor is the
Speaker 1: availability of social capital. So social capital is kind of
Speaker 1: a complicated concept that is a bit hard to define
Speaker 1: that the way I think about it is just will
Speaker 1: someone else in your community help you out even if
Speaker 1: you're not doing well. So as an example, people often
Speaker 1: talk about Salt Lake City with the Mormon Church as
Speaker 1: an example of a place with a lot of social capital,
Speaker 1: And in our data, Salt Lake City looks like a
Speaker 1: place where low income kids have great chances of rising up.
Speaker 1: A third very important factor, which is intuitive, is the
Speaker 1: quality of public schools in an area. And then a
Speaker 1: fourth factor, which i'll mention, illustrates. I think the complexity
Speaker 1: of the issues is there's a very strong correlation between
Speaker 1: rates of upward mobility and measures of family structure. So
Speaker 1: areas with more two parent families tend to have higher
Speaker 1: rates of upward mobility. But in understanding this, it's very
Speaker 1: important to note that it's not literally about whether your
Speaker 1: own parents are married or not. Even if your own
Speaker 1: parents are married, kids who grow up in areas with
Speaker 1: a larger share of single parents tend to be less
Speaker 1: likely to climb the income letter. And so the reason
Speaker 1: I provide that additional nuances it shows you that the
Speaker 1: mechanism is not maybe the first thing lots of people
Speaker 1: would think of that it your own parents marital structure
Speaker 1: is the critical thing. It's again something about the community
Speaker 1: that's getting picked up. There. We'll be right back. You know,
Speaker 1: we're in the midst of this nationwide pandemic health crisis.
Speaker 1: It's revealed again more inequities and our health care systems,
Speaker 1: the job markets, and even education. What do you think
Speaker 1: the long term effects of COVID will be on social mobility,
Speaker 1: especially on the communities that you've been studying that don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of opportunity to spare. So in our team,
Speaker 1: the way we've been thinking about COVID, everyone I think
Speaker 1: is within how can they contribute to this crisis? And
Speaker 1: so our thought was, can we use the big data
Speaker 1: approach again to measure the impacts of COVID more rapidly,
Speaker 1: in a very precise way. How is it affecting different
Speaker 1: people and businesses in America? And in this case, we
Speaker 1: found that the best approach was not to turn the
Speaker 1: government data, but actually to data from private companies which
Speaker 1: have the best real time information on what is happening
Speaker 1: in our economies. Let me give you an example. If
Speaker 1: you want to see what is happening to consumer spending
Speaker 1: in America, get data from companies that process credit and
Speaker 1: debit card transactions. So you swipe your credit card, We
Speaker 1: collect all of that information and anonymized way, and three
Speaker 1: or four days later we have a sense of what
Speaker 1: is happening to spending in America. And that is incredibly
Speaker 1: valuable because when you look at the sort of data
Speaker 1: you can see the effects of various policy changes. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, when the stimulus checks went out literally on
Speaker 1: April sixteen, relative to April fourteen, you see a huge
Speaker 1: uptick in spending, especially for low income folks who were
Speaker 1: really strapped for cash. Right. And so with that sort
Speaker 1: of real time data from private companies of various types,
Speaker 1: we have been studying what is happening to economic outcomes
Speaker 1: and economic opportunity in the COVID crisis, And so, you know,
Speaker 1: there are lots of issues in the short run, how
Speaker 1: do we get Americans back to work, and what is
Speaker 1: happening to businesses and so forth. And I'm happy to
Speaker 1: talk about that, but I want to tie this back
Speaker 1: to the longer term kind of conversation we've been having
Speaker 1: on economic opportunity, and I want to share one piece
Speaker 1: of data that to me is very alarming. So we've
Speaker 1: been tracking data on an online math learning platform called zern,
Speaker 1: which about a million students in the US use in
Speaker 1: their schools to do math lessons. And we basically look
Speaker 1: at what happened when schools shut down to progress on
Speaker 1: this platform. And what we find is that for kids
Speaker 1: in high income families when schools went to remote instruction,
Speaker 1: there was a temporary debt in the amount of progress
Speaker 1: they were making, but they very quickly rebounded back to
Speaker 1: the levels that they were at when they were in school.
Speaker 1: For kids in low income families, you see a sixty
Speaker 1: percent drop off in terms of the progress they're making
Speaker 1: in math, and there's absolutely no recovery basically, and that
Speaker 1: I think is incredibly alarming for all of the reasons
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about earlier in the conversation, which
Speaker 1: is these early childhood formational years are incredibly important, uh
Speaker 1: in determining kids long term outcomes. And my worry is
Speaker 1: the COVID crisis is bring to the forefront many of
Speaker 1: the inequalities that I think have been a little bit
Speaker 1: hidden to many Americans at least, And in a sense,
Speaker 1: we're going to be seeing the impacts of this crisis
Speaker 1: if we don't respond appropriately, not just in the coming months,
Speaker 1: but ten twenty years from now, because of these impacts. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the findings that you have shown
Speaker 1: is that you know, a really great kindergarten teacher can
Speaker 1: underrate hundreds of thousands of dollars in future earnings for students.
Speaker 1: But because of COVID, kids are not in school, or
Speaker 1: if they are, it's kind of a sporadic you know,
Speaker 1: we're in, we're out. And it's absolutely clear, as you
Speaker 1: pointed out, how this is going to have long term
Speaker 1: impacts on low income kids. It will probably creep up
Speaker 1: the income ladder somewhat more than you might find at
Speaker 1: other times because families aren't able to get back to work, namely,
Speaker 1: mothers are not able to get back to work, so
Speaker 1: the standard of living drops, plus the education is not
Speaker 1: proceeding the way it needs to be. I agree with
Speaker 1: you that we we have a lot of long term
Speaker 1: problems we're going to have to unpack and then try
Speaker 1: to address. But but let me wrap up by asking
Speaker 1: you this. I'm hoping for a change in the November
Speaker 1: election where we might actually get back to making policy
Speaker 1: based on evidence and data and facts and reason and
Speaker 1: lots of uh, you know, challenges to that in the
Speaker 1: current administration, but we're going to have to really have
Speaker 1: an organized effort to move quickly. So, if you were
Speaker 1: asked by an incoming administration, Okay, what are the three things,
Speaker 1: professor Chetty that we need to do as soon as
Speaker 1: we can to try to make up for you know,
Speaker 1: not just historic inequity, but the incredibly damaging impact of COVID.
Speaker 1: What would be your three most important policy suggestions. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we need to have a solid based in the
Speaker 1: short run to be able to build towards long term solutions.
Speaker 1: And so the first set of policy efforts that I
Speaker 1: would focus on our short term, targeted supports to the
Speaker 1: people and the places that have been hard as to
Speaker 1: by this crisis to help restore employment at kind of
Speaker 1: a basic level. I would then push towards trying to
Speaker 1: address what I see as the structural factors that are
Speaker 1: leading to the inequalities that are becoming apparent in this crisis. So,
Speaker 1: I think one response to what we're seeing in terms
Speaker 1: of the educational inequity that we just talked about in
Speaker 1: the COVID crisis is, oh, that just happened in the
Speaker 1: context of COVID. We need to fix that now, but
Speaker 1: then things are going to be fine afterwards. I think
Speaker 1: that's the wrong way to look at it. It's actually
Speaker 1: a you're seeing at the surface a much deeper problem
Speaker 1: that's been around for many, many years, and I think
Speaker 1: what we should do is use this as an opportunity
Speaker 1: to do something that will be much more trans transformational.
Speaker 1: So you know, my one positive hope coming out of
Speaker 1: the COVID crisis is in the same way that the
Speaker 1: Great Depression, I think was an incredible shock to the country,
Speaker 1: it also led to I think a transformative set of
Speaker 1: policies that paved the way for an incredible amount of
Speaker 1: inclusive growth in America over the next many decades. And
Speaker 1: I think this is the moment to try to seize
Speaker 1: the opportunity and make a similar effort. And so what
Speaker 1: does that then involve? Reducing segregation in America? So that
Speaker 1: can be through affordable housing policy, it can be through
Speaker 1: zoning changes, the way we collect taxes, and so forth.
Speaker 1: Their number of specifics, but I think that is one
Speaker 1: major area to focus on. Another major area to focus on,
Speaker 1: given that opportunity seems to emerge so locally, is place
Speaker 1: based investments. So traditionally when people talk about place based investments,
Speaker 1: it's often things like tax credits for businesses or things
Speaker 1: focused on the labor market. But as we've been discussing,
Speaker 1: the foundations I think are really in the context of childhood.
Speaker 1: And so when I think about place based efforts, it's
Speaker 1: about how do you provide in specific communities, better schools,
Speaker 1: more social capital, and importantly do it in a way
Speaker 1: that doesn't just end up raising house prices and creating
Speaker 1: gentrification such that the people you were trying to help
Speaker 1: end up having to move out. So I think that's
Speaker 1: a second major area of focus. And then third, uh
Speaker 1: the universities that provide important pathways to opportunity for many folks.
Speaker 1: There's I think another crisis in America playing out there
Speaker 1: where there are many colleges that produce good outcomes for
Speaker 1: kids but are inaccessible to kids from lower income backgrounds,
Speaker 1: either because they can't afford it, or because those colleges
Speaker 1: for various reasons, are not admitting as many kids from
Speaker 1: low income backgrounds. And so I think a push towards
Speaker 1: essentially making your contribution to social mobility a key factor
Speaker 1: that determines how a college is regarded, perhaps even how
Speaker 1: much funding federal funding college gets. I think is is
Speaker 1: another important area for focus. So, you know, just to
Speaker 1: provide some perspective that those may seem like things that
Speaker 1: are not directly about COVID, but I think that longer
Speaker 1: term perspective is incredibly important combined with short run solutions. Well,
Speaker 1: I agree completely and that longer term perspective combined with
Speaker 1: the short term solutions, is one of the ways I
Speaker 1: hope that we can work together as a nation to
Speaker 1: revitalize the American Dream. And if we lose the idea
Speaker 1: and the reality of the American dream, we really do
Speaker 1: see a continuing fraying of our social fabric in ways
Speaker 1: that I know distress you and certainly distress me. So
Speaker 1: thank you, rog Please keep up your extraordinary commitment to
Speaker 1: helping us understand how we can actually improve opportunity in
Speaker 1: America for many, many more Americans. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: my pleasure. You can learn more about Roger's projects and
Speaker 1: find lots of cool maps and data visualization at Opportunity
Speaker 1: Insights dot org. Well that's it for this week's show.
Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Supran and Kathleen Russo, with help
Speaker 1: from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki e Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson,
Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo and Lona Valmorrow. Our
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