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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Penl podcast. I'm Paul swing you

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Speaker 1: along with my co host Lisa Brahma Waits. Each day

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Speaker 1: we bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money. Whether at the grocery store or

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Speaker 1: the trading floor. Find a Bloomberg Penl podcast on Apple

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Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, as well as

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com. We're driving a conversation for one

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Speaker 1: of the big names that reported earnings last night. Lisa

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Speaker 1: was Facebook coming in with some numbers that came in

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Speaker 1: a little bit below expectations, particularly as it relates to

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Speaker 1: the top line revenue growth and maybe a little bit

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Speaker 1: higher expenses. So that stock is off about six point

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Speaker 1: four percent today and the otherwise, you know, pretty strong

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Speaker 1: earnings tape for big tech. Let's be real clear. Facebook

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Speaker 1: did not have bad earnings. They just didn't have amazing earnings.

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Speaker 1: They beat estimates uh by less than one percent, which

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Speaker 1: was a problem for them. And this sort of highlights

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Speaker 1: this key driver of big tech, which is the expectation

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Speaker 1: that this incredible exponential growth will continue. They're being penalized

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Speaker 1: for not having that necessarily, and still there are things

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Speaker 1: like Instagram and the fact that you could potentially check out,

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Speaker 1: as Barriott Hols was talking about, they could potentially drive growth,

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Speaker 1: And we were talking with David Garrity about how the

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Speaker 1: campaign spending that will inevitably be ramping up heading into

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Speaker 1: the elections will actually help fuel Facebook. So amid all

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Speaker 1: of that, it still wasn't enough to get anything more

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Speaker 1: than what you know, we saw the expenses had expenses

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Speaker 1: up thirty percent, a little bit more than expected. So

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Speaker 1: the company is investing in the company. A lot of

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Speaker 1: it is for it's an anticipation of the election. They've

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Speaker 1: been ramping up. They're spending on trying to make sure

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Speaker 1: they have the right content, uh, that the content is

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Speaker 1: appropriate content that the you know, as we come up

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Speaker 1: to the election, that they don't have those same issues

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Speaker 1: with election manipulation that we had in the last election.

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Speaker 1: So they're spending a lot of money there that's ramping

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Speaker 1: up the expenses just at a time when the revenue

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Speaker 1: growth here in this quarter was the slowest they've reported

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Speaker 1: as a public company. But I think most investors feel like, uh,

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Speaker 1: the long term secular trends of digital advertise sing really

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Speaker 1: support the likes of not only Facebook, but Google and

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Speaker 1: the others that rely upon digital advertising. So longer term,

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Speaker 1: you still have Instagram, you still a messenger, maybe WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: to some degree, lots of revenue levers that this company

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Speaker 1: can can pull. Yeah, And to be clear, Facebook shares

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Speaker 1: a year to date or at one point seven percent,

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Speaker 1: even with today's eight percent plunge. Given the fact that

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Speaker 1: the shares have just been on a tear, let's get

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Speaker 1: Dan eves opinion on both Facebook and also what to

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Speaker 1: look ahead with Amazon, and then this this company called

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Speaker 1: Tesla that seems to be absolutely on an absolute tear.

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Speaker 1: Danives is the equit analystic web Bush Security is the

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Speaker 1: biggest bull in Tesla and the biggest bull I should say,

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Speaker 1: excuse me on Apple, and you've been right on that.

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Speaker 1: Also seeing positive signs in Tesla. What are you looking

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Speaker 1: at in Facebook is the main reason for today's tumble.

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Speaker 1: I think I think the stock just got over at

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Speaker 1: skis coming into the quarter. I view it is just

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Speaker 1: a speed bump. I mean this is a stock of

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Speaker 1: my opinion continues to go higher two and fifty in

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Speaker 1: terms of our target it and I view it is

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Speaker 1: one where anytime these fang names get hit. In our opinion,

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Speaker 1: there's a buying opportunities because we believe ultimately thirty percent

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Speaker 1: higher you know, for large cap tech the rest of

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Speaker 1: the year. So let's switch gears to Tesla. The stock

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Speaker 1: is just extrading up eleven point five today, all time

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Speaker 1: high up. It's more than doubled over the last year. Dan,

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Speaker 1: I guess you know, this has always been a fight

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Speaker 1: between the bulls and the bears on this name, but

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Speaker 1: it looks like the bulls are are winning this fight

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, and I view it as a game

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Speaker 1: changer quarter in terms of inflection around demand, especially going

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Speaker 1: to thousand and twenty in China, and also profitability because

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Speaker 1: right now it's gonna be a self funding model going forward,

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Speaker 1: could be twin hours earnings power in three years. So

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Speaker 1: I do view this is just a massive inflection point.

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Speaker 1: That's from a stock perspective in terms of where it's

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Speaker 1: your trade. That's going to continue to be a debate,

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Speaker 1: but we believe right now the China of thesis both

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Speaker 1: cases work three a share, which is how we get

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Speaker 1: to a thousand dollars in terms of bookcase toy at

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Speaker 1: hours and earning his power. How is it that Tesla

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Speaker 1: is the second most valuable auto manufactory manufacturer in the world,

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Speaker 1: considering that it's footprint is vastly smaller of the general

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Speaker 1: motors and Fords of the world. Sure and next, and

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Speaker 1: I hear that every day, I mean for for years

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Speaker 1: right from investors is in an automotive company or technology company.

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Speaker 1: And that's why, first of all, I'll viewed as a

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Speaker 1: disruptive technology coming in terms of a multiple in terms

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Speaker 1: of what it deserves, but in terms of the footprint

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Speaker 1: relative to others. It comes down to e V demand

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Speaker 1: two and a half percent global, We've we've gone eight

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Speaker 1: percent in the next four years. You start to put

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Speaker 1: that through. That's why right now, in terms of looking

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Speaker 1: out how to continues to be the court ev play

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Speaker 1: and penetration rates are so low. I look at a decade,

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Speaker 1: I think one of every ten cars is going to

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Speaker 1: be easy. And I think that's why right now you're

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Speaker 1: seeing it reflecting the stock as this becomes really a

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Speaker 1: parabolic and flashing point to some extent similar to what

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Speaker 1: you know. I think we start even with the iPhone

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven and the smartphone industry in

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Speaker 1: terms of what's happening evy. So Dan, let's say the

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Speaker 1: market for electro vehicles does develop, you know, very quickly,

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Speaker 1: can they even make the cars to satisfy that demand

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Speaker 1: or won't a General Motives or a Toyota or one

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Speaker 1: of the people that already have big factories set up

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Speaker 1: fill that demand. Yeah, and that's really been the shadow

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Speaker 1: that that was going to happen thus far. If you

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Speaker 1: look at it, they've not just had to moot in

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Speaker 1: terms of tests, so they've continued to expand production Shanghai

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Speaker 1: that you have. But when Bruin coming up this year

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Speaker 1: and production you there'll be a million cars per year.

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Speaker 1: If you look at traditional auto manufacturers both in the

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Speaker 1: US and even internationally, been slow, slow to the gate

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Speaker 1: in terms of production, in terms of releasing cars as

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Speaker 1: well as one that could com with Tusla just from

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Speaker 1: an e V perspective in terms of mileage and battery relations.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's why right now it continues to

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Speaker 1: be test Tesla and must swirld and everyone else is

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Speaker 1: paying rent. In terms of the EV market, of course,

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Speaker 1: there is this question about profitability per unit, and that's

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Speaker 1: been coming down dramatically. It remains to be seen how

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Speaker 1: profitable Elon Musk can be as he tries to dominate

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Speaker 1: the electric vehicle market, especially because it really hasn't been

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Speaker 1: taking off as much as people had expected globally when

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Speaker 1: it comes to consumers preference, I'm wondering, does that concern

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Speaker 1: you the profitability aspect of this, Yeah, and that I

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Speaker 1: mean you obviously it's a great point because if you

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Speaker 1: go back to three quarters ago, let's go, when the

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Speaker 1: stocks to to fifty, the big issues are going to

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Speaker 1: need to raise capital. They're not profitable, so they do

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Speaker 1: raise capital in terms of the convert and then profitability

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Speaker 1: starts in terms of the cuts and they're able to

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Speaker 1: get the volume and show the profit. So that's why

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Speaker 1: right now that's going to continue to be you know,

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Speaker 1: a big question mark. But if you look at what

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Speaker 1: they're approving now, you could get to twenty hours or

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Speaker 1: earnings power two years earlier than expected. And that's a

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Speaker 1: self funding model takes the capital raise off the table.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really what you're seeing reflecting the

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Speaker 1: stock right now, is that there could be speed bumps

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Speaker 1: along the way, but as of right right now, it

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Speaker 1: looks like you know, may homes like performance. Hey, Dan,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about another tech company that's hitting all time

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Speaker 1: high today. Microsoft course, Uh, Mike, Microsoft had good numbers

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Speaker 1: last night. What were your key takeaways there, because I'm

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Speaker 1: hearing some really good things about the cloud business. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is one I wouldn't quote

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Speaker 1: under the radar, but if you look what the Dell

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Speaker 1: has done Microsoft Golden Touch in terms of the cloud transformation,

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Speaker 1: as your growth beet by a thousand BIPs, and I

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Speaker 1: think what you're starting to see now is share shift

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Speaker 1: from Amazon a w asked to Microsoft in terms of

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Speaker 1: the next phase of cloud. Seven hundred billion that we've

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Speaker 1: is going to be spent. I think Microsoft is going

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Speaker 1: to be the winner. You saw that numbers, you start

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Speaker 1: reflecting gotten it's a rereading in terms of what's happened

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Speaker 1: the stock and really a metamorphosis and probably one of

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Speaker 1: the best tech turnaround, if not the best, in the

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Speaker 1: last twenty years. How does that factor into what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna see today potentially out of Amazon with AWS. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, right now, it's gonna be a comparison because

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Speaker 1: if you look at Amazon, even though growth rates are

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Speaker 1: swelling and it's it's not necessary apples to apples. If

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Speaker 1: there's any sort of ding on a w S. It

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Speaker 1: just further solidifies the thesis that Microsoft's gaining versus Bezos

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Speaker 1: and Amazon. And it all comes down even though there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of noise. Jedi biggest cloud deal ever, Pentagon,

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Speaker 1: who wanted Microsoft that trophy sitting in Redmond. It's been

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Speaker 1: a major black guy from Bezos and a w S.

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Speaker 1: That's right tonight. Need to prove to the street that

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Speaker 1: they're not losing share versus Microsoft, because all the other

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Speaker 1: indications are if you look at numbers and everything, all

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Speaker 1: the work we do, they are so down. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of where I wanted to go. How do you differentiate

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Speaker 1: a lay person like myself between Azure, which is owned

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Speaker 1: by Microsoft, and AWS, which is owned by Amazon. Aren't

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Speaker 1: they just like servers somewhere out in the desert or something? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And what And I think at the first phase of cloud,

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Speaker 1: that's what That's what it was. It was Amazon just

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Speaker 1: parabolic expansion on cloud. They owned it. In terms of

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Speaker 1: a WS has been a big key part of the

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Speaker 1: valuation of Amazon. But now it's happening is enterprise Microsoft's backyard.

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Speaker 1: Those companies are moving the cloud only of workloads during

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Speaker 1: the cloud today going to next three years. Microsoft right

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Speaker 1: now they're turf Is, they moved to Azure. They are

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Speaker 1: extremely well positioned and better position to Windows Enterprise Deals

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Speaker 1: Verse WS and then miles behind his Google trailing in

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Speaker 1: third place with g g P. I'm just wondering, if

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Speaker 1: you take a holistic look at what we've seen so

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Speaker 1: far at a big tech in the earnings for fourth quarter,

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Speaker 1: are we seeing enough to justify the rally that we

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Speaker 1: saw last year. I just sort of propel it forward

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Speaker 1: to be the leading category yet again in the SMP

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Speaker 1: and the NASTAC this year. Yeah. I think if you

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Speaker 1: when you strip away all the noise and forget just

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Speaker 1: the headlines in terms of near term coronavirus and everything else,

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Speaker 1: you look at earnings earnings Untech I viewed as major

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Speaker 1: fuel on the engine because you look at where there's

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Speaker 1: parabox spending going on software in the cloud, look at

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Speaker 1: the five G supercycle thesis with Apple, and then I

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Speaker 1: think you have strong numbers out of Amazon tonight. Now

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Speaker 1: there could be little things here with You saw it

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Speaker 1: in Netflix, you saw it with Facebook. I've viewed as

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Speaker 1: a short term issues and I continue to view it

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Speaker 1: as tax is going to continue to lead the charge,

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Speaker 1: which is why we continue to be overweight and think

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Speaker 1: we still have eighteen months left a lease in this

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Speaker 1: both thesis for attack. Hey, Dan, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us. We love having you on Talking Tech.

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Speaker 1: You've been very consistent with that Bowl call, particularly with

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Speaker 1: the Apple Yeah, absolutely right, Dan. I'ves managing director Equity

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Speaker 1: Research for what Bush Securities, joining us on the phone

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Speaker 1: from New York City. The great migration to e t

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Speaker 1: S has been treated off and in tandem with the

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Speaker 1: shift towards index funding, index funds and just generally trying

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Speaker 1: to avoid active management. But is that really the path

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Speaker 1: forward for the E t F industry? Joining us now,

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Speaker 1: Ryan Sullivan, Senior vice president of Global e t F

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Speaker 1: S at Brown Brothers Harriman, based in Boston. Ryan, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. I want to

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Speaker 1: start with this idea of the migration of assets to

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Speaker 1: e t F s. How much is this just a

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Speaker 1: general push towards indexing and how much is this something

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Speaker 1: specific with e t F rapper Paul Lisa. Hey, great

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Speaker 1: to be here. Thanks for the time. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think what we're seeing here this this great migration that

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Speaker 1: you talked about We've been seeing this really take shape

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Speaker 1: over the last few years. Uh, you're you're spot on.

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Speaker 1: I think historically E t F are really seen as

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Speaker 1: just a delivery mechanism for for passive investment strategies and indexing.

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Speaker 1: But over the last five, six, seven years, we've seen

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Speaker 1: this influx of you know, traditional active managers across the

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Speaker 1: globe really adopt the E t F rapper and seek

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Speaker 1: to drive uh, you know, more specialized, more actively managed strategies,

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Speaker 1: and that's taken shape in both the domestic and international

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Speaker 1: equity strategies, fixed income UH. And now this year in

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Speaker 1: our seventh annual et F investor survey, we're seeing a

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Speaker 1: lot more demand for active e t F. So the

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Speaker 1: share in particular, UH six of US investors said they

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Speaker 1: wanted to increase their allocations in to actively managed strategies

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Speaker 1: in the E t F rapper. So we think this

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Speaker 1: is really just the beginning of this tilt where et

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Speaker 1: F are seeing as a viable rapper for a number

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Speaker 1: of different types of investment strategies. I'm glad you mentioned

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Speaker 1: acted e t F because to me, that's an oxymoron.

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Speaker 1: What is an active et F? I thought an E

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Speaker 1: T F by definition, is it's passive. Well, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: Historically again, they had always the strategies within the rapper

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Speaker 1: had really sought to track a benchmark, to track an index. Uh. Here,

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing is that active strategies work just fine

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Speaker 1: in this particular rapper. Uh. Traditionally, and for all the

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Speaker 1: e t fs that exist today, whether they're active or passive,

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Speaker 1: they do need to disclose their holdings on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: That does make the E t F rapper a little

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Speaker 1: bit unique and one of the ways that differs some

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Speaker 1: other investment products that usually disclose the portfolio on a

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Speaker 1: lag Uh So, right now, active ets do need to

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Speaker 1: disclose that portfolio. Obviously, some asset managers are okay with that.

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Speaker 1: On fixed income in particular, works very well on that rapper. However,

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Speaker 1: you know, over the years, a lot of equity managers

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Speaker 1: were concerned about that opening them up for front running

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Speaker 1: in their portfolio if they were disclosing their trades each day.

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Speaker 1: This year, just before the holidays, we saw some approvals

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Speaker 1: from the SEC here in the States to approve new

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Speaker 1: types of active E t F structures. Uh. So, you've

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Speaker 1: got managers like Fidelity, Presidian T Row Price, Blue Tractor,

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Speaker 1: and the New York Stock Exchange all offering a new

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Speaker 1: structure that would seek to kind of mirror the disclosure

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Speaker 1: policies of a traditional mutual fund, uh so delaying the

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Speaker 1: release in the publication of the fund's portfolio, but still

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Speaker 1: putting that in the e t F rapper. So again,

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Speaker 1: it's going to the this notion that e t S

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Speaker 1: the evolution of this market is now really enveloping all

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Speaker 1: different types of investment strategies. So what's the point of

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Speaker 1: going to an e t F and a mutual fund. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a few structural benefits that the e t F

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Speaker 1: can offer when compared to some other other investment products.

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Speaker 1: So one and I think this is typically well understood

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Speaker 1: for for folks kind of looking at the e d

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Speaker 1: F market. There's been a lot of mentions and media

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Speaker 1: headlines around the so called fee wars going on in

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Speaker 1: the e t F space. So certainly on one end

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Speaker 1: of the spectrum, you've got very inexpensive, very cheap beta

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Speaker 1: solutions from some of the biggest managers in the planet.

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Speaker 1: But that low cost is driven by some structural elements

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Speaker 1: within the e t F rapper. There's elements like the

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Speaker 1: cost of the transfer agent. This is near and dear

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Speaker 1: to our heart at Brown Brothers, where we really support

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Speaker 1: the plumbing behind these funds. So the role of the

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Speaker 1: transfer agent is a bit less onerous, uh. Within E

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Speaker 1: t F and the mutual funds, that can present some

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Speaker 1: cost savings and one of the ways that they help

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Speaker 1: keep the expense for ratio of the fund lower than

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Speaker 1: other investment products. And I would say the other biggest

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Speaker 1: benefit in the US is the tax efficiency that e

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Speaker 1: t s really drive, uh, the the use of in

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Speaker 1: kind trading between the e t F and the funds

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Speaker 1: authorized participants, where the portfolio and the e t F

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Speaker 1: shares are exchanged in kind. That's a tax exempt transaction

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Speaker 1: here in the States, and that really drives a lot

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Speaker 1: of tax efficiency in terms of reducing capital gains to

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Speaker 1: E t S investors. So, Ryan, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that we hear more and more about in terms of

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Speaker 1: investment strategies is focusing on E s G, Environmental, social,

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Speaker 1: and governance. Are we seeing Are you seeing flows into

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Speaker 1: E s G E t F s. We're starting to

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Speaker 1: see them. Yes, this is something we've been tracking year

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Speaker 1: on year and our survey in terms of the demand

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Speaker 1: for E s G products. I think you've got two

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Speaker 1: things kind of coming uh and slowly emerging and taking

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Speaker 1: shape here in the States. We we've definitely seen stated

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Speaker 1: demand for these products. Uh. You know, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: something that investors over the years have all said that

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Speaker 1: they plan to increase their allocations. And we finally got

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Speaker 1: upwards of about six of US investors planning to increase

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Speaker 1: E s G allocations across the board, so somewhat product agnostic,

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Speaker 1: but about six saying they planned to increase those allocations

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Speaker 1: over the next five years. I think a couple of

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Speaker 1: things are at play here behind that one. Increasingly, we're

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Speaker 1: seeing public pensions, UH, insurance companies, larger institutional asset managers

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Speaker 1: really setting floors for minimum allocations to E s G

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Speaker 1: oriented investment strategies. And we think that's a trend that

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Speaker 1: will likely continue in those floors, those uh, those those

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Speaker 1: minimum allocations will only come up in that institutional community.

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Speaker 1: And I think on the other hand, on the retail side,

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Speaker 1: you've got this large demographic shift that is just beginning

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Speaker 1: to kind of take shape with the wealth transfer to

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Speaker 1: the millennial generation. And as this audience continues to attract

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Speaker 1: assets as they build capital. That will take time to

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Speaker 1: be clear, but they have such stated preference of you know,

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Speaker 1: investing according to their values that we think that will

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Speaker 1: be another driver for s G T. S. Hey, Ryan,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate your

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Speaker 1: thoughts there, Ryan Sullivan, Senior Vice President of Global Exchange

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Speaker 1: Traded Fund Services, A Brown Brothers Harriman based in Boston,

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Speaker 1: joining us on the phone. But we are joined by

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Speaker 1: our own oracle here, Barry rid Holts, who we can

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Speaker 1: just say go and he'll go. Barry rid Holts, Bloomber

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Speaker 1: opinion columnists and host of Masters and Business on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Also of course, the founder, chairman and chief investment officer

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Speaker 1: of rid Holts Wealth Management, joining us here in Interactive

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Speaker 1: Broker Studios. I want to really focus in on the

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Speaker 1: consumer that has been the main driver of the U

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Speaker 1: S economy. A big question has been how much longer

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Speaker 1: can that continue? And what is the potential ramification of

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Speaker 1: the strong consumer on the entire retail sector. I want

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Speaker 1: to start with the data we guy out this morning.

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Speaker 1: Consumer spending decelerated to a one point eight percent pace.

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Speaker 1: This is below projections and the weakest since the first quarter.

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Speaker 1: Do you view this as a potentially concerning sign of

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Speaker 1: a weakening consumer. You know, you can't just take one

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Speaker 1: monthly report and extrapolated too much of a conclusion. Remember

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Speaker 1: this year, the holiday season was very strong, up four

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Speaker 1: point one percent year of a year. That's very powerful

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Speaker 1: set of numbers. Just keep in mind that versen were

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Speaker 1: easy comparables. Remember Q we had a lot of recession fears.

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Speaker 1: The market had sold off about so maybe people throttled

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Speaker 1: back a little bit last year and this past Christmas

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Speaker 1: they made up for a little bit. So when you

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Speaker 1: look at the broader picture, uh, you know, still growing,

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Speaker 1: but a little softer than expected. That's mostly noise. It's

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Speaker 1: too difficult to say, oh, we're one instead of to

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Speaker 1: two it's over because look, the landscape is littered with

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Speaker 1: the bodies of economists predicting the demise of the U S. Consumer.

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Speaker 1: It so far, it just hasn't happened. The consumer has

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Speaker 1: been driving this economy. Do you feel like that can continue?

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Speaker 1: Because we're still seeing weakness and manufacturing barrier. Business investment

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Speaker 1: is not great. It's really been hanging on the consumer.

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Speaker 1: So the fascinating thing about retail and consumer is there's

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Speaker 1: so many cross currents happening at once. It's such a

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Speaker 1: noisy environment. It's really difficult to draw and paint broad conclusions.

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Speaker 1: So we know we've been going through a retail apocalypse

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Speaker 1: for a decade. The United States wildly um over retailed

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Speaker 1: compared to other countries like the UK or France or Japan.

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Speaker 1: We just have seven square feet per person versus five

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Speaker 1: and three and two elsewhere. So we're gonna con tinue

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Speaker 1: to see retail stores closed, and we continue to see

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Speaker 1: nine year of your growth nineteen point eight year your

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Speaker 1: growth in online retail stores. Not only is that a

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Speaker 1: big number, it's accelerating versus previous years. So I think

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Speaker 1: this internet thingy is gonna be big one day, and

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Speaker 1: it's going to continue to grow at just an astonishing pace.

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Speaker 1: Online retail is now about fifteen percent of retail, up

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Speaker 1: from about a third of that a decade and change ago.

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Speaker 1: We will eventually start the plateau, but there are no

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Speaker 1: signs that's coming anytime soon. So in all these crazy crosscurrents,

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Speaker 1: looking at one month of retail sales and saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's it for the consumer really difficult. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the Internet thingy and talk about what a strong

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Speaker 1: consumer means for this thingy that seems to be taking

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Speaker 1: over it. It's technical terms. By the way, I wish

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Speaker 1: that we had a camera showing all of the hand motions,

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Speaker 1: the idea that you know that he says, you know,

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Speaker 1: painted broadbrush. He's he's literally painting that broad brush acrosta across.

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Speaker 1: If only there was a camera, right, we just haven't

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Speaker 1: turned it on. Okay, So what are you looking at

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Speaker 1: in terms of the disruption in so so the first

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Speaker 1: generation of disruptors, the Amazons of the world, the Ebays,

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Speaker 1: They've become very comfortable and I would never call Amazon complacent.

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Speaker 1: They seem to be very savvy. Um, Jeff Bezos wants

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Speaker 1: to run the world. So you know, I use Amazon

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Speaker 1: Subscribe and Save and Amazon Prime, and I used to

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Speaker 1: go to Target once a month, and now if I

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Speaker 1: go twice a year. It's a lot because every month,

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Speaker 1: automatically the dog food, the paper, towels, the toilet pay,

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Speaker 1: all the stuff that would kill my Sunday morning, it

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Speaker 1: just shows up like magic. It's fantastic. But I'm a

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Speaker 1: different generation. And if you're under thirty, your mobile first,

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Speaker 1: you are very excited about all of the Facebook properties

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Speaker 1: like Instagram, and Instagram is rapidly becoming not just an

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Speaker 1: influencer like it was a few years ago, but Instagram

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Speaker 1: checkout is becoming this way that you see a pair

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Speaker 1: of sneakers on Instagram that you like and you click

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Speaker 1: on it, and Instagram facilitates that transaction. It's become too

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Speaker 1: easy to make purchases. Keep in mind, this is the

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Speaker 1: fastest growing part of Facebook, and the old joke about

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Speaker 1: Facebook as well, it's become where my mom and grandma are.

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Speaker 1: Instagram is where the youth are, and that arguably is

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Speaker 1: the future. So that's something that I'm paying close attention to.

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Speaker 1: The Graham or I g as a kid. That's called alright,

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Speaker 1: instant stock. Actually, you know, Facebook down about seven percent

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Speaker 1: today on some of those disappointing numbers from last night,

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Speaker 1: but the company did call out that Instagram check out

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Speaker 1: as a growth driver. So one of the things when

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Speaker 1: we talk about retail, and we talked to retail analysts,

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Speaker 1: they say that, you know, the US is still overstored

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Speaker 1: and we still got to close that a bunch more stores.

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Speaker 1: Is that kind of you believe? I believe that we're

431
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: still over even with all the closure. Absolutely, so when

432
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta be a little more um thoughtful

433
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: about looking at the stores that are either like Sears

434
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 1: and Kmart, are the walking dead. Nobody's told them they're dead.

435
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: Someone will eventually tap them on the shoulders. Um Cole's J. C.

436
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: Penny go down that whole list of sort of older

437
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: style department stores, especially in light of not just the

438
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 1: general psychological understanding that people derive more satisfaction and happiness

439
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: out of experiences than consumer purchases, but that's the philosophy

440
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: that really have seemed to be embraced by the millennial generation.

441
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: And so the struggle that we've seen a lot of

442
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: retail is how do we make experience part of our

443
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: sales process? And some really successful retailers have come up

444
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: with ways to do that same with the direct consumer sales.

445
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: When when we look at things like albert sneakers or

446
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: go down the list of the new niche products that

447
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: are all being sold direct consumer instead of needing a

448
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: big retail department store to sell it. Uh, that's a

449
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: substantial challenge to the Macy's of the world. Well, if

450
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: you are a millennial or someone who's under thirty and

451
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: you feel like you've been pigeonholed by Barry rid Holts

452
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: with vast generalizations. Please do right to him p R

453
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: I T H O L t Z three at Bloomberg

454
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: dot net. Uh. He's wonderful. He will continue to talk

455
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: with you and tell you why you should be all

456
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: about the Graham or perhaps more about experiences than Thanks.

457
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: Barrit Hols, Bloomberg opinion columnist and host of Masters in

458
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: Business on Bloomberg Radio, Founder, chairman, chief investment officer of

459
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: rid Holts Wealth Management, and oracle of Bloomberg Markets a M.

460
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being with us. Well, the

461
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: spread of the coronavirus is impacting financial markets far and wide,

462
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: and that includes the commodities markets as well, including the medals.

463
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: To get a sense of what's going on there. We

464
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: welcome Will Rynd, founder and see you have Granite shares

465
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: joining us here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brooker Studio. Well,

466
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Let's start with gold

467
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: gold up again today. I'm looking at the chart. It's

468
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: a good chart. If you're long gold, gives your sense

469
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: of how gold has been trading as it relates to

470
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: kind of things going on in the marketplace, including the coronavirus. Well, thanks,

471
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: Paul um as you already know. I mean, this year

472
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: has been a good environment for golds. If it wasn't

473
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 1: already a good time for people to buy gold, I

474
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: think that this whole situation with the coronavirus has just

475
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: made it even more acute for investors looking for some

476
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: kind of hedge or some kind of response to the confusion. Now,

477
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: all right, hold on a second, full disclosure. You happen

478
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,959
Speaker 1: to run a gold fund, right, Okay, alright, let's be

479
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: real honest. Okay, So you know, this sort of comes

480
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: to a question to know how you invest in gold,

481
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: because you can have a position of whether gold is

482
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: going to go up from here, and a lot of

483
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: people do have that. So yes, you're probably talking your book,

484
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: but also there are a lot of people who actually

485
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: back that given where we are in the economic cycle

486
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: and given some of the macroeconomic concerns. But going forward,

487
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 1: is there a difference in how people access this market? Yeah,

488
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: so I think, like I said, before this coronavirus thing happened,

489
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: you know, you've got central banks increasing their balance sheet,

490
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: interest rates coming down, so that was already the environment

491
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: that you know, a lot of people needed to feel

492
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: more confident about buying gold, and in some respects there

493
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: was a little bit analogous to when gold made in

494
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: all time high. You're you know, quantizative easing happening, UM

495
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: dollar going down, UM interest rates obviously coming down at

496
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: the real interest rates going negative. So a lot of

497
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: those components are alive and well today. I think the

498
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: other part of it, which you know, is probably dissipated

499
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: a little bit, at least until um the last week

500
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: or so has been fears of some kind of correction

501
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: in the market. I think there was a kind gone

502
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: away a little bit um and people have focused more

503
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: on just expanding the balance sheet and looking for for

504
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: some kind of hedge to that. How about some of

505
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: the other precious metals, Have we seen a similar move

506
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: that we've seen in gold in others we have in

507
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: many ways we've seen some pretty outsized moves and some

508
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: of the other metals. So as some of some of

509
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 1: the listeners might know, palladium has been a really kind

510
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: of incredible story. UM that went from a metal which

511
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: was really kind of unloved over the last few years

512
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: to a pretty severe supply shortage in the market, which

513
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: is propelled those prices up to two thousand, two hundred

514
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: dollars nownce. So most people we were shocked when the

515
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: price of palladium went past gold, but then it's now

516
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: accelerated to more than two thousand dollars announced um. Similarly,

517
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: the price of silver has gone up as well um

518
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: And I think the one that everyone's watching at the

519
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 1: moment is platinum, because the price of platinum has started

520
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: to move, but that's been kind of the laggered in

521
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: the precious metal space, but trading it over a thousand

522
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: dollars announced less than palladium, and both of those metals,

523
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: by the way, the key demand source and catalytic converters

524
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: for cars, so cleaning the emissions of cars, and there's

525
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: a substitute herbal effect, So for all those automakers that

526
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: use palladium as the primary metal for the catalyst, you

527
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: can substitute that with platinum. And so people are looking

528
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: at that. How much a driver of the price of

529
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: gold has sexual bank buying pin um. It's certainly been important,

530
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: but it's been pretty consistent for a long time now

531
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: in the market, so I don't want to discount it

532
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: in any way, But it's been kind of consistent. Technological

533
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: buying has been pretty steady, about ten percent of demand paranum.

534
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: Jewelry also has been pretty steady, And if anything, jewelry

535
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: has increased because it's linked to GDP, So when people

536
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: feel wealthier around the world, they tend to use some

537
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: of that money in gold. Jewelry wise trades almost like

538
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: a luxury good. The marginal investor. That that's the most

539
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: important thing in my mind for the price of gold.

540
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: So when you get the investors coming in, that's the

541
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: sort of the swing, the swing in the demand curve.

542
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: And so when you start to see investors coming in

543
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: and buying or gold, I think that's the thing that's

544
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: the most meaningful in terms of the price. So gold

545
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: and some of the other precious metals trading well. Uh Copper,

546
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: on the other hand, twelve days in a row, I

547
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: think trading down. If I remember UH lowers since seen

548
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: what's the story behind copper? Yeah, horrendous story. If if

549
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: the precious metals are the kind of the darling of

550
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: the commodity space, then the ugly sister has got to

551
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: be copper, and certainly any kind of major commodities linked

552
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: primarily to China, so very simply that the copper stories

553
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: intrinsically linked to China because China is the biggest buyer

554
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: of copper, and so that story is very much linked.

555
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: So the bad news and the Chinese economy means, all

556
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: things being equal, less demand for copper. So it's it's

557
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: not had a good good running. So as we watch

558
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: battles sell off. More broadly, I mean the London medal

559
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: exchange is actually poised for its worst monthly decline since

560
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen, a lot of people are ratcheting

561
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: back inflation expectations, and once upon a time gold was

562
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: a hedge against inflation. How does that factor into the

563
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: picture now if we don't get inflation and if ultimately

564
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: you get interest rates going even lower, yeah, I think

565
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: probably the lesson over the last decade is, you know,

566
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: certainly when gold price is made in all time high,

567
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, back in two thousand and eleven, I think

568
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people felt like all the quantitative easing

569
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: that was being put into the market, the interest rate

570
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: reductions that we saw from central banks all around the world,

571
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: would result and runaway inflation, and that was one good

572
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: reason to own gold. Obviously that didn't happen, and the

573
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: price of gold accelerated for for other reasons, which is

574
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: primarily fear over some kind of inflation re expectation, but

575
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: more often the opportunity cost of gold. The interest rates

576
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: came down significantly, So I think, you know, inflation is

577
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: certainly on some people's mind right now, but it's not

578
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: the main reason I think that people are buying gold.

579
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: I think that people were trying to position themselves more

580
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: defensively for a correction in the market. Well, Ryan, thank

581
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. Thank you well.

582
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: Ryan is founder and chief executive officer of Credit Shares

583
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: based in New York, the Granite Shares Gold Trust I'm

584
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: looking at right now at million dollars of assets. Center

585
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: Management has returned more than nine percent nearly in the

586
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: past twelve months, and it's up about four percent so

587
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: far year to date. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

588
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: P and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

589
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer.

590
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: Paul Sweeney, I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. I'm Lisa

591
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: Abram Woyd's I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. It's one

592
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide on

593
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio