WEBVTT - A legally binding treaty to fight the plastic problem 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:05.080 Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati this week a plan for 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:21.920 plastic pollution. Climate change is a pollution problem. We spew 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:25.560 too much greenhouse gases into the air and it heats 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:29.360 up the planet. The trouble is greenhouse gases are invisible, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:31.800 and that can make it very hard to describe the 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.640 scale of the problem. The same is not true of 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:39.879 plastic pollution, which is everywhere. Plastic that is littered on 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:44.080 the land, washes into the oceans, slowly breaks down into microplastics, 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.159 and then travels to the furthest corners of the globe. 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.120 In twenty twenty two, a study was published showing that 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.480 microplastics had been found in antarctics. Now it's also been 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.600 found in every organ of the body, including the brain. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.000 Sick is abundant and very cheap, and on current trends, 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.440 the amount we produce is set to triple by twenty 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.360 sixty from four hundred and thirty million tons a year 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.840 today to one point two billion tons, according to the OECD. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.320 And if that plastic is not managed, we'll see much 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.360 more of it polluting our lands, oceans and bodies. It's 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.840 also not just about human health. There's an impact on 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.639 climate One point two billion tons of plastic would produce 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.640 as much as four billion tons of greenhouse gases, so 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:31.520 there needs to be a fix. 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.880 The deal has to ensure that we reduce the avoidable 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.880 and the eliminatable, if there is such a word. But 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.679 this cannot be and some parties would like it to 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:43.840 be just a recycling treaty. 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.800 That's Inger Anderson, head of the United Nations Environment Program, 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.680 and for the last eighteen months she has been working 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.440 on a new global treaty to reduce plastic pollution. At 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.440 the end of last year, the first version of the 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.640 agreement was sent to negotiators. It's called the Zero Draft, 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.480 and it calls for a reduction of plastic pollution from 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:09.359 start to finish, not just increased recycling, but reduced production 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.200 by eliminating unnecessary single use plastics. It all goes to plan. 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.040 The legally binding treaty is due to come into action 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.320 by twenty twenty five. I caught up with Inger at 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.480 COP twenty eight to hear about how negotiations are going, 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.040 why big companies are dropping out of their plastic promises, 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.520 and why a lack of cash is as pervasive a 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.919 problem as plastic pollution. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:44.600 Inger, Welcome to the show. 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:45.880 Well, thank you for having me. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:48.600 Now we talk about pollution. There is a lot of 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.960 invisible pollution, some we have to deal with in the atmosphere, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.680 but plastic pollution is very visible and it's been growing 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.359 and becoming a menace all around the world. So over 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.280 the past eight months, you are trying to figure out 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.200 a way in which governments around the world can come 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.320 together and finally have a legally binding way to address 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:10.320 plastic pollution. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.880 Correct, how is it going. Well, We've had three rounds 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.760 of negotiations. The last one happened in Nairobi just a 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:22.080 couple of weeks back. There's a zero draft text out 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.920 of the treaty text in the UN speak, it will 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.320 be a treaty, but it may have other names, the 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.480 instrument as we refer to it, until it's baptized. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.920 If you know what I mean when you say zero draft, 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:35.640 what does that mean? 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.720 So that means you know. The first two sessions the 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:45.040 Intergovernmental Negotiation Committee i NC one and i n C two. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:50.480 The first one was spent on organizational issues and to 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.640 listen to member states and other parties on their views. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.440 Second one ditto, and it got really bogged down in 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.160 silliness of procedural issues. I shouldn't say silliness, but there 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.240 was quite a lot of frustration that the procedural issues 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.320 took so long. But sometimes that's the case. When you 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.440 have one hundred and ninety three be your best friends negotiating, 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.200 it takes time. But in the meantime, of course, we 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.800 had an open submission from all governments and partners and 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.680 other interested parties where they sort of submitted in response 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.040 to what was called an options paper. These submissions were received, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.240 hundreds of submissions based upon which a draft tree D 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.760 text was drafted. That's a zero drafted from A to Z. 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.279 I mean, it's an actual you can it's on the 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:43.640 website unit website and it was issued in September, so 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.280 that when parties gathered in Nairobia a couple of weeks ago, 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.120 they had that text to refer to. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.840 And the goal is there'll be i INC four and 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.799 five over the next year, and by twenty twenty five 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.560 there will be a legally binding treaty to add. 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:03.080 That's certainly what enabled resolution as it's called back the 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.760 United Nations Environment Assembly, which is sort of the Environment 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.760 General Assembly. If you know happens every two years. It's 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.040 under unip's auspices. It happens always in Nairobi, which is 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:18.960 where our headquarters is. And in the junea United Nations 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.919 Environment Assembly that happened in twenty two that was a 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:28.680 decision to negotiate a legally binding instrument to end plastic 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.920 pollution COMMA, including in the marine environment. So it's from 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.960 the entire production line, if you like, from beginning to end, 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.440 not just cleaning up the oceans, not just recycling, but 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.680 the entire production chain, life cycle approach. And that's what 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.120 this zero draft text reflected at the last I INC 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.080 three in Nairobi. So there was a lot of comments 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.920 from different interests, I have to say, and based upon 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.760 which now the next round will be the true negotiation. 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.560 The idea, as you rightly say, is to finish this 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:05.560 by the end of twenty twenty four. 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.360 You said one hundred and ninety three best friends. Well, 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:14.679 right now, given where multilateral negotiations are going, generally, take 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.520 the climate negotiations that happen at COPP, they don't really 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.800 act like best friends. So why do you think there 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:25.479 is more agreement among parties among these hundred and ninety 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:30.200 three countries on plastic pollution than there is on carbon pollution. 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.800 I mean, I'm not saying that they're in agreement. I 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:34.680 am saying that I have one hundred and ninety three 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.640 bosses whom I'm trying to enable, for whom I'm trying 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.279 to enable this negotiation. We can look upon it like that. However, 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.839 there are also many other stakeholders who are inside the 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.320 negotiating room. They're activists, there, indigenous people the waste because 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.920 they're scientists. There's private sector, et cetera. Why will this 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.080 be more successful? I would like to believe. I think 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.920 there's a popular demand for this. You know, so every 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.320 child saw what was it ten years ago? The straw 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.520 and the turtle snows. Every child has seen and now 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.240 they're a little bit older, but the belly of the 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.000 bird full of plastic, the whale full of fishing gear. 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.960 Every person, especially who lives in the global South, where 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:23.960 sanitation collection of municipal solid waste is largely absent, knows 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.800 that it is the poorer people who live with waste. 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.640 Knows that it is the drains that are supposed to 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.360 carry the rain water out to sea that gets full 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:38.400 of garbage and therefore blocks and courses inundation understands that 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.400 if they burn it, their children gets asthma and other 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.880 diseases from burning plastic, which contains thousands of chemicals, many 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.280 of which are highly toxic. So this understanding is very real. 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.680 I think what we are seeing is very interesting from 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.920 all sides, including sort of left and right, both aisles 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.600 of proverbial aisles in politics, that there is a desire 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.600 to find a solution. The on ramp for the solutions 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:08.040 are slightly different because some would rather focus on a 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:12.000 recycling side and some would rather focus on a let's 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.720 find a way of reducing overall production. But there is 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:17.360 a desire to find solutions. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.360 How would you roughly structure what is inside the zero 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.920 draft and why that document as it exists, and it 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.080 will of course be modified, but at least is a 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:29.440 good start for addressing the problem of plastic pollution. 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.200 I think first of all, what we would say is 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.600 that the deal has to ensure that we reduce the 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.960 avoidable and the eliminatable, if there is such a word, 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.679 and that we need to think about the redesign, that 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.880 we need to think about the switch to non plastic substitutes, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.240 that we need to strengthen the systems for reuse, refill, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.720 repair and recycle. But this cannot be and some parties 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.840 would like it to be just a recycling treaty. As 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.640 I say, we didn't need a treaty for having a 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.280 fire brigade, we don't need a treaty for having a 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.080 recycling system. It's obvious and it's something that we just 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:11.880 need to do. The zero draft has to target primary polymers. 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:16.000 It has to target chemicals of concern because we will 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.280 end up having to recycle and the recycling. Therefore, we 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.240 need to know what's in the stuff that we are recycling. 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.679 But we also have to ensure that there's a degree 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:30.439 of justice. There are twenty million wastepickers today who make 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.560 their living being the global workforce of sanitation. As hopefully 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:41.079 we will switch to a different type of waste management. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.080 The wastepickers, when I speak to them, their aspiration is 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.440 to not work on the dump but to do house 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.120 to house collection. If today I'm collecting metal, tomorrow I'm 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.880 collecting plastic. You understand what I'm saying. So that it 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.520 becomes separated at sauce to the extent that you can 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.440 get willingness to separate in their households. That's something that 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.880 we need to think about. And on the funding, there 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.880 has to be a funding mechanism. Finally, I will say 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.160 extended producer responsibility is something that is in the treaty. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.200 That means that there's some sort of obligation of the 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.959 brand owners to have a take back scheme. Brand owners, 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.440 most of them are very interested in this, but they 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.600 want any equal level playing field. There can't be that 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.400 in one market it's not and in one market it is, 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.280 because then it becomes unequal. We will also need to 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.400 ensure that we can move stuff across boundaries that today 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.720 is considered hazardous and tomorrow week it becomes wealth as 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.800 we move into recycling. Then, finally, if I may legacy 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.720 pollution as what we refer to what is already out 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.760 there in our oceans, our rivers, our waterways. A small 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.520 island state Tuvalu, Fiji, et cetera that lives off of tourism. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.920 Just as an example, who is responsible for that beach cleanup? 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.320 If I met the minister from the Saeychelles and he 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:07.320 told me the costs of the beach cleanup just to 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.800 enable tourism, these are extraordinary amounts, so there has to 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.560 be some justice around this in the treaty as well. 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.920 One of the features of global negotiations on environmental issues 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.280 in general is that they've become the place where the 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.400 divide between the global North and global South is most apparent. 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:30.800 And if you want those solutions to apply everywhere, Global 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.520 South countries typically require financing to be able to get 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.400 those solutions going. Now, a new report from the OECD 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.800 says that to be able to deal with just prevention 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.240 of plastic from leaking into the environment would require more 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.240 than a trillion dollars of investment in non OECD countries 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:54.360 in the zero draft and in the work that you 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.880 do and end up with this treaty, how is finance 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.960 fitting into trying to get these solutions? Is going in 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:02.600 all the places it must? 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.920 So I think we need to be careful because of 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.800 course I live on the African continent. I'm privileged enough 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.680 to live there. And it is correct that infrastructure solid 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:18.880 waste infrastructure is largely absent from many many African countries 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.679 as an example, as well as in South Asia, et cetera. 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.559 And the costs of an engineered landfill with lead chased 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.200 channels with salting conveyor bills. All of that, and with 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.160 transfer stations and the collection vehicles and all that is considerable. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.240 But don't put that burden on the Plastic Treaty. You know, 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.280 the Plastic Treaty can't carry that. But the Plastic Treaty 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:46.520 in its draft text now speaks to the imperative of 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.080 investments in solid waste. Their countries will have to think 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.200 about the fact that once you have the investment of 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.960 the infrastructure piece and the trucks and what have you, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.600 someone has to pay the bills to pay an I wouldn't. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.200 You wouldn't if you live in Islam, you would dump 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.200 because you have very little money and your priority is 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:11.600 to feed your kids and necessities. And the luxury paying 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.600 for your garbage to be taken away is too high. 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.439 So you need to find some degree of cross subsidies 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.040 for that which people are willing to pay for. But 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:27.480 on the plastic itself, the reduction itself, and the alternatives itself, no, 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.840 there we are not talking these extraordinary costs. What we 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.400 need to think about because the poor people who may 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.000 not be able to afford to buy a big container 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.200 of stuff, will buy whatever they need in a sachet. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.920 So that's where we've seen some really neat innovation, for 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:49.679 example El Grammo in Chile, where you own a bottle 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.240 with your little microchip and you go to the store 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.960 and you buy a grammo the grams that you can afford. 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.040 If you can afford twenty grams, you press the button, 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:03.240 you get the twenty of whatever. So whatever it is 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.920 that you need, and you are done and at bottle 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.280 as yours forever. It's this kind of innovation that we 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.600 need to leapfrog into so that we can get rid 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.760 of the plastic I'm not denying the OCD study, but 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.800 we need to think of them. And that's why I'm 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.320 speaking to all the ifi's development banks, et cetera. They 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.720 really need to lean in on the solid waste management. 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.800 After the break, how to get companies to do the 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.640 work on cutting plastic pollution. 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.760 Well, the science of climate change has been clear for 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.600 a long time, and it's only become more and more certain. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.920 But that's not allowed for progress to happen at pace. 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.200 That is not to say progress can't happen under the 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.040 UN system. We had the Montreal Protocol back in nineteen 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.200 eighty seven, another Unit convention, indeed, very clear mandates to 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.120 try and reduce there a set of gases that were 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.720 causing the ozone layer to break apart and all kinds 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.720 of problems that follow from that. We've seen the result 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.960 of that show over the next thirty years. The osen 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.360 hole is currently filling up and filling up quickly. So 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:20.040 these things can work. But the same group of countries 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.880 that have caused a problem on the climate sphere are 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.840 also the group of countries that are trying to cause 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.080 a problem on the plastics treat And one of the 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.040 ways in which they do it is they say energy 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.560 is needed for development. They were able to insert that 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.480 phrase in the Zero draft that was published earlier this year, 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.880 where they said, yes we lend plastic pollution as long 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.840 as it supports sustainable development. How are you going to 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.720 deal with those forces? 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.920 So, first of all, there are many pieces to what 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.160 you said. Obviously, the producers of plastic plastic comes from 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:02.800 virgin raw polymer. Obviously, hydrocarbons ie oil and gas are 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:07.000 the foundational element to produce new virgin raw polymer, which 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.560 often is delivered in small nodules and can be then 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:15.000 made into anything from airplanes to your toothbrush or whatever. 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:19.880 The point is that many, many, many countries, way beyond 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:25.080 the producers, have a plastics industry. Frankly, I was looking up. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.440 It's hard to find a country that does not have 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.840 a plastics industry, even if it's not very big. But 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.680 these are jobs, and so some of the countries are 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:39.960 concerned about Okay, yes, this is fine, but what happens 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.680 as we shift to alternatives? Will they only be made 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.120 in the global north? Where's the R and D? Is 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.280 there going to be justice? Will we have access to 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.160 the new I mean, these are real issues that are 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.240 concerning on the issue of new raw polymers. Obviously, yes, 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:59.440 the countries that produce the polymer could be argued that 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.400 they have an interest to keep producing. On the other hand, 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:08.080 there is an understanding even amongst their populations that recycling 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:13.160 and recycle content is critical. They too live on oceans, 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:18.320 they too experience this. They too have a population that 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.159 objects to plastic in the waste stream. And what the 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:27.119 zero draft speaks to elimination of the single use the 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:31.399 single use packaging. We can do a lot, and yes, 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.919 obviously they're commercial interest, but I think the other force 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.920 is quite strong, and you rightly pointed out the Montreal protocol. 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.080 And if I could just go back and remind listeners 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:49.560 that in their seventies, when the theory that fluorinated gases 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.879 were in fact what depleted the ozone layer, it was 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.760 highly disputed by very large American companies. There was hearings 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.879 in the Senate where extraordinary things were said about how 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.679 this would be impossible to face out, face down, face whatever. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.919 This wasn't a word at the time, but you know, 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.280 eliminate from the production. At the time, the world was told, 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.800 your food will spoil, your vaccines will go off, and 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.439 you will be very hot because they're not going to 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.520 be any cooling. And yet the industry was able to 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:27.440 step in. There are many many alternatives, and some are 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.160 with us, but we're just not using them fast enough, 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.120 and others we need to invent. And what's very interesting 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.120 is that we are seeing many of the brand owners 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.240 actually it's detracting from their shareholder value and from their 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:46.480 company employee pride, and obviously from their brand. When their 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.480 packaging is bobbing around in the water or lying on 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.080 the side of the street. It is not a good 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.800 thing nowadays. And so I think brand owners, many of 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.639 whom I speak to at the CEO levels. I also 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:04.480 seek to lean in. I say to those countries that 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:09.480 are holding on to plastic in the places where it's replaceable. 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:14.040 We still need it for planes, trains, cars, appliances, electrical 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.080 and all of that. But that kind of plastic doesn't 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.040 end up in the environment. It's a packaging that does. 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.880 I say to those brand owners. Look at the solar 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.520 industry PV. The early bird got the worm. Those who 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.240 started investing and now controlling that market, step in and 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.880 lead in this way so that you can be part 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.320 of that innovation way, because it will come like it 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.959 came on cooling, like it came on photovol takes. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.560 It's clear that there are solutions and that there are 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.719 places where these solutions have started to work. One solution 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.360 that has popular and has scaled up is the plastic 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.240 bottle fee, where you pay a little bit when you 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.560 buy the bottle and if when you return it to 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.280 the right place, you get some money back. These solutions exist, 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.119 they need to be scaled up. But if you just 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.879 look at companies. The Ellen MacArthur Foundation listed one hundred 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.280 and fifty companies in twenty eighteen that said they would 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.920 report on and reduce their plastic pollution by twenty twenty five. 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.639 But five years on twenty companies have dropped out many 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.760 major brands and they are unwilling to either meet the 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.000 criteria or even take part in what was an obligation 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:31.080 that seemed pretty reasonable. Why do you think a treaty 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.120 which is being talked about by governments will actually get 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:35.080 companies to do so. 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.679 I grew up in Denmark. We always had a collect scheme. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.280 When I was a kid. It was glass and if 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.760 you found a glass bottle as a little five year old, 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.760 you would pick it up. It would be like fifty cents, 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.320 I mean, and you could go and get a lollipop 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.240 for that or whatever. So and now it's also plastic 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.240 and you put them into a machine either by way 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.840 to buy individual code, and out pops a little thing 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.080 that you then used to pay for your groceries. I 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.040 could never walk past a can or a bottle in denmarket. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.800 It's like walking past money lying on the ground. And 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.840 so what these individual companies did. They put up their 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.240 hands and we're willing to do this, but if there 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:21.919 is no system by which I take it all to 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.080 the grocery shop or the supermarket, and everything, whether it's 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.720 pepsi or Coca Cola or Procter and Gamble or it 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.400 has to go through the same system. Honestly, it's hard 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.359 for people to this one goes here, that one goes there. 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:37.800 It's a little bit like when you stand with your 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:42.119 ice cream wrapping in front of the recycling and joy, okay, 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:43.919 is this here or is it there? And where does 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.680 it go? The system has to be one that has 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:53.320 been enabled across a jurisdiction, normally a country or a 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:59.200 group of countries. If that is in place by legislation, 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.080 the national level logic follows. It's just how it works. 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.679 Are there countries in the world where there has been 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:09.800 legislation put in place to deal with plastic pollution that 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.840 you think are good case studies to follow? You mentioned Denmark, 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.320 Well are examples. Perhaps I would look. 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.240 At Rwanda and Kenya as the I mean Rwanda came 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.639 first and Kenya on its heels, and now a number 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.080 of countries on the continent of Africa. Rwanda banned plastic bags. 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:27.960 You're going to have to double check, but like two 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:34.119 thousand and seven and Kenya is shortly thereafter, and significant 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.840 finds follow. If you're caught with a plastic bag significant 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:43.280 in terms of and or jail time. The National Environmental 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.880 Management Authority of Kenya, for example, it's sort of similar 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:52.520 to drug busts, except it's illegal plastic bag production busts, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:57.199 and the criminals are lined up and on Twitter and 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.680 you see them all and shamefaced and so and so forth. 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:05.760 You cannot when you land in Nairobi, the air announcement 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:07.560 will come. If you have a plastic bag, you got 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:09.479 to leave it on the plane, do not take it 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:12.800 into the country. That's how it is. And it's phenomenal, 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.399 I'm telling you. And so you know it's only bags, yes, 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.719 but it's a very very good beginning and people are 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:22.399 very aware of it. And we don't have like you 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:26.680 have in other poor countries where solid waste is absent, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.880 plastic bank trees, you know, where they have blown onto trees, 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:30.520 not at all. 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:31.960 It just does not exist. 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:36.560 And so that's I mean, the beautification, the absence of 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.920 the drainage clogging and so on. Not to say Kenya 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.600 doesn't have plastic pollution, because it does because of the 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.560 packaging for cleaning products and so on. But this is 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:46.840 the next step. Kenya, for example, it's just rolling out 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:51.439 an EPR legislation on this exact thing. Rwanda similarly and 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:53.920 other countries do. So, yes, it's not just the North 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:57.040 and that's what I will probably finish with if we're 0:23:57.040 --> 0:23:59.320 coming up towards the end. That's what I would like 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.520 to really stras that this is not a North South story. 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.960 It was Peru and Rwanda that sponsored the resolution at 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.600 the United Nations Environment Assembly, and then they got others 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.520 to jump in the Nordic see, some of the Europeans obviously, 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:18.119 the Pacific Islands and more and more to support that resolution. 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.000 So it is not just a North South story. It 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:24.840 is really a story lit by the global south where 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.199 the global nrcessor Yeah, we can get with this, and 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:29.520