1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,080
Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati this week a plan for

2
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:21,920
Speaker 1: plastic pollution. Climate change is a pollution problem. We spew

3
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 1: too much greenhouse gases into the air and it heats

4
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,360
Speaker 1: up the planet. The trouble is greenhouse gases are invisible,

5
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 1: and that can make it very hard to describe the

6
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: scale of the problem. The same is not true of

7
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,879
Speaker 1: plastic pollution, which is everywhere. Plastic that is littered on

8
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 1: the land, washes into the oceans, slowly breaks down into microplastics,

9
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,159
Speaker 1: and then travels to the furthest corners of the globe.

10
00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, a study was published showing that

11
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: microplastics had been found in antarctics. Now it's also been

12
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: found in every organ of the body, including the brain.

13
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: Sick is abundant and very cheap, and on current trends,

14
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: the amount we produce is set to triple by twenty

15
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,360
Speaker 1: sixty from four hundred and thirty million tons a year

16
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,840
Speaker 1: today to one point two billion tons, according to the OECD.

17
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,320
Speaker 1: And if that plastic is not managed, we'll see much

18
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 1: more of it polluting our lands, oceans and bodies. It's

19
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,840
Speaker 1: also not just about human health. There's an impact on

20
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,639
Speaker 1: climate One point two billion tons of plastic would produce

21
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: as much as four billion tons of greenhouse gases, so

22
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 1: there needs to be a fix.

23
00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 2: The deal has to ensure that we reduce the avoidable

24
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 2: and the eliminatable, if there is such a word. But

25
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,679
Speaker 2: this cannot be and some parties would like it to

26
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,840
Speaker 2: be just a recycling treaty.

27
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 1: That's Inger Anderson, head of the United Nations Environment Program,

28
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: and for the last eighteen months she has been working

29
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 1: on a new global treaty to reduce plastic pollution. At

30
00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 1: the end of last year, the first version of the

31
00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,640
Speaker 1: agreement was sent to negotiators. It's called the Zero Draft,

32
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 1: and it calls for a reduction of plastic pollution from

33
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,359
Speaker 1: start to finish, not just increased recycling, but reduced production

34
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 1: by eliminating unnecessary single use plastics. It all goes to plan.

35
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,040
Speaker 1: The legally binding treaty is due to come into action

36
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 1: by twenty twenty five. I caught up with Inger at

37
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 1: COP twenty eight to hear about how negotiations are going,

38
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 1: why big companies are dropping out of their plastic promises,

39
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: and why a lack of cash is as pervasive a

40
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,919
Speaker 1: problem as plastic pollution.

41
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:44,600
Speaker 3: Inger, Welcome to the show.

42
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:45,880
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me.

43
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 3: Now we talk about pollution. There is a lot of

44
00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,960
Speaker 3: invisible pollution, some we have to deal with in the atmosphere,

45
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 3: but plastic pollution is very visible and it's been growing

46
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 3: and becoming a menace all around the world. So over

47
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 3: the past eight months, you are trying to figure out

48
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 3: a way in which governments around the world can come

49
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,320
Speaker 3: together and finally have a legally binding way to address

50
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 3: plastic pollution.

51
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 2: Correct, how is it going. Well, We've had three rounds

52
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 2: of negotiations. The last one happened in Nairobi just a

53
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,080
Speaker 2: couple of weeks back. There's a zero draft text out

54
00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,920
Speaker 2: of the treaty text in the UN speak, it will

55
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 2: be a treaty, but it may have other names, the

56
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,480
Speaker 2: instrument as we refer to it, until it's baptized.

57
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 3: If you know what I mean when you say zero draft,

58
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 3: what does that mean?

59
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: So that means you know. The first two sessions the

60
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 2: Intergovernmental Negotiation Committee i NC one and i n C two.

61
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,480
Speaker 2: The first one was spent on organizational issues and to

62
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,640
Speaker 2: listen to member states and other parties on their views.

63
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 2: Second one ditto, and it got really bogged down in

64
00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,160
Speaker 2: silliness of procedural issues. I shouldn't say silliness, but there

65
00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 2: was quite a lot of frustration that the procedural issues

66
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 2: took so long. But sometimes that's the case. When you

67
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 2: have one hundred and ninety three be your best friends negotiating,

68
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,200
Speaker 2: it takes time. But in the meantime, of course, we

69
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 2: had an open submission from all governments and partners and

70
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,680
Speaker 2: other interested parties where they sort of submitted in response

71
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,040
Speaker 2: to what was called an options paper. These submissions were received,

72
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,240
Speaker 2: hundreds of submissions based upon which a draft tree D

73
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,760
Speaker 2: text was drafted. That's a zero drafted from A to Z.

74
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,279
Speaker 2: I mean, it's an actual you can it's on the

75
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,640
Speaker 2: website unit website and it was issued in September, so

76
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,280
Speaker 2: that when parties gathered in Nairobia a couple of weeks ago,

77
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 2: they had that text to refer to.

78
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,840
Speaker 3: And the goal is there'll be i INC four and

79
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,799
Speaker 3: five over the next year, and by twenty twenty five

80
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,560
Speaker 3: there will be a legally binding treaty to add.

81
00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 2: That's certainly what enabled resolution as it's called back the

82
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,760
Speaker 2: United Nations Environment Assembly, which is sort of the Environment

83
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 2: General Assembly. If you know happens every two years. It's

84
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,040
Speaker 2: under unip's auspices. It happens always in Nairobi, which is

85
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 2: where our headquarters is. And in the junea United Nations

86
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,919
Speaker 2: Environment Assembly that happened in twenty two that was a

87
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:28,680
Speaker 2: decision to negotiate a legally binding instrument to end plastic

88
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,920
Speaker 2: pollution COMMA, including in the marine environment. So it's from

89
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 2: the entire production line, if you like, from beginning to end,

90
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,440
Speaker 2: not just cleaning up the oceans, not just recycling, but

91
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 2: the entire production chain, life cycle approach. And that's what

92
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 2: this zero draft text reflected at the last I INC

93
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 2: three in Nairobi. So there was a lot of comments

94
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 2: from different interests, I have to say, and based upon

95
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,760
Speaker 2: which now the next round will be the true negotiation.

96
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,560
Speaker 2: The idea, as you rightly say, is to finish this

97
00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,560
Speaker 2: by the end of twenty twenty four.

98
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 3: You said one hundred and ninety three best friends. Well,

99
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,679
Speaker 3: right now, given where multilateral negotiations are going, generally, take

100
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 3: the climate negotiations that happen at COPP, they don't really

101
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,800
Speaker 3: act like best friends. So why do you think there

102
00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,479
Speaker 3: is more agreement among parties among these hundred and ninety

103
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 3: three countries on plastic pollution than there is on carbon pollution.

104
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying that they're in agreement. I

105
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 2: am saying that I have one hundred and ninety three

106
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 2: bosses whom I'm trying to enable, for whom I'm trying

107
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,279
Speaker 2: to enable this negotiation. We can look upon it like that. However,

108
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 2: there are also many other stakeholders who are inside the

109
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 2: negotiating room. They're activists, there, indigenous people the waste because

110
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,920
Speaker 2: they're scientists. There's private sector, et cetera. Why will this

111
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:57,080
Speaker 2: be more successful? I would like to believe. I think

112
00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 2: there's a popular demand for this. You know, so every

113
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,320
Speaker 2: child saw what was it ten years ago? The straw

114
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,520
Speaker 2: and the turtle snows. Every child has seen and now

115
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 2: they're a little bit older, but the belly of the

116
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 2: bird full of plastic, the whale full of fishing gear.

117
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 2: Every person, especially who lives in the global South, where

118
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 2: sanitation collection of municipal solid waste is largely absent, knows

119
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 2: that it is the poorer people who live with waste.

120
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,640
Speaker 2: Knows that it is the drains that are supposed to

121
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 2: carry the rain water out to sea that gets full

122
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,400
Speaker 2: of garbage and therefore blocks and courses inundation understands that

123
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,400
Speaker 2: if they burn it, their children gets asthma and other

124
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 2: diseases from burning plastic, which contains thousands of chemicals, many

125
00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,280
Speaker 2: of which are highly toxic. So this understanding is very real.

126
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 2: I think what we are seeing is very interesting from

127
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,920
Speaker 2: all sides, including sort of left and right, both aisles

128
00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,600
Speaker 2: of proverbial aisles in politics, that there is a desire

129
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 2: to find a solution. The on ramp for the solutions

130
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 2: are slightly different because some would rather focus on a

131
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 2: recycling side and some would rather focus on a let's

132
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,720
Speaker 2: find a way of reducing overall production. But there is

133
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 2: a desire to find solutions.

134
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 3: How would you roughly structure what is inside the zero

135
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,920
Speaker 3: draft and why that document as it exists, and it

136
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,080
Speaker 3: will of course be modified, but at least is a

137
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 3: good start for addressing the problem of plastic pollution.

138
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,200
Speaker 2: I think first of all, what we would say is

139
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,600
Speaker 2: that the deal has to ensure that we reduce the

140
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 2: avoidable and the eliminatable, if there is such a word,

141
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,679
Speaker 2: and that we need to think about the redesign, that

142
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 2: we need to think about the switch to non plastic substitutes,

143
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,240
Speaker 2: that we need to strengthen the systems for reuse, refill,

144
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,720
Speaker 2: repair and recycle. But this cannot be and some parties

145
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,840
Speaker 2: would like it to be just a recycling treaty. As

146
00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 2: I say, we didn't need a treaty for having a

147
00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 2: fire brigade, we don't need a treaty for having a

148
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,080
Speaker 2: recycling system. It's obvious and it's something that we just

149
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,880
Speaker 2: need to do. The zero draft has to target primary polymers.

150
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 2: It has to target chemicals of concern because we will

151
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 2: end up having to recycle and the recycling. Therefore, we

152
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 2: need to know what's in the stuff that we are recycling.

153
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,679
Speaker 2: But we also have to ensure that there's a degree

154
00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,439
Speaker 2: of justice. There are twenty million wastepickers today who make

155
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,560
Speaker 2: their living being the global workforce of sanitation. As hopefully

156
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:41,079
Speaker 2: we will switch to a different type of waste management.

157
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,080
Speaker 2: The wastepickers, when I speak to them, their aspiration is

158
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 2: to not work on the dump but to do house

159
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 2: to house collection. If today I'm collecting metal, tomorrow I'm

160
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 2: collecting plastic. You understand what I'm saying. So that it

161
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,520
Speaker 2: becomes separated at sauce to the extent that you can

162
00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 2: get willingness to separate in their households. That's something that

163
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 2: we need to think about. And on the funding, there

164
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,880
Speaker 2: has to be a funding mechanism. Finally, I will say

165
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,160
Speaker 2: extended producer responsibility is something that is in the treaty.

166
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 2: That means that there's some sort of obligation of the

167
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,959
Speaker 2: brand owners to have a take back scheme. Brand owners,

168
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,440
Speaker 2: most of them are very interested in this, but they

169
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,600
Speaker 2: want any equal level playing field. There can't be that

170
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,400
Speaker 2: in one market it's not and in one market it is,

171
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,280
Speaker 2: because then it becomes unequal. We will also need to

172
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 2: ensure that we can move stuff across boundaries that today

173
00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 2: is considered hazardous and tomorrow week it becomes wealth as

174
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 2: we move into recycling. Then, finally, if I may legacy

175
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 2: pollution as what we refer to what is already out

176
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 2: there in our oceans, our rivers, our waterways. A small

177
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 2: island state Tuvalu, Fiji, et cetera that lives off of tourism.

178
00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,920
Speaker 2: Just as an example, who is responsible for that beach cleanup?

179
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,320
Speaker 2: If I met the minister from the Saeychelles and he

180
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,320
Speaker 2: told me the costs of the beach cleanup just to

181
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 2: enable tourism, these are extraordinary amounts, so there has to

182
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,560
Speaker 2: be some justice around this in the treaty as well.

183
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 3: One of the features of global negotiations on environmental issues

184
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 3: in general is that they've become the place where the

185
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 3: divide between the global North and global South is most apparent.

186
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 3: And if you want those solutions to apply everywhere, Global

187
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,520
Speaker 3: South countries typically require financing to be able to get

188
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,400
Speaker 3: those solutions going. Now, a new report from the OECD

189
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,800
Speaker 3: says that to be able to deal with just prevention

190
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 3: of plastic from leaking into the environment would require more

191
00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 3: than a trillion dollars of investment in non OECD countries

192
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 3: in the zero draft and in the work that you

193
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 3: do and end up with this treaty, how is finance

194
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,960
Speaker 3: fitting into trying to get these solutions? Is going in

195
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 3: all the places it must?

196
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,920
Speaker 2: So I think we need to be careful because of

197
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 2: course I live on the African continent. I'm privileged enough

198
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,680
Speaker 2: to live there. And it is correct that infrastructure solid

199
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:18,880
Speaker 2: waste infrastructure is largely absent from many many African countries

200
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,679
Speaker 2: as an example, as well as in South Asia, et cetera.

201
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,559
Speaker 2: And the costs of an engineered landfill with lead chased

202
00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,200
Speaker 2: channels with salting conveyor bills. All of that, and with

203
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 2: transfer stations and the collection vehicles and all that is considerable.

204
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 2: But don't put that burden on the Plastic Treaty. You know,

205
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,280
Speaker 2: the Plastic Treaty can't carry that. But the Plastic Treaty

206
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,520
Speaker 2: in its draft text now speaks to the imperative of

207
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,080
Speaker 2: investments in solid waste. Their countries will have to think

208
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,200
Speaker 2: about the fact that once you have the investment of

209
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,960
Speaker 2: the infrastructure piece and the trucks and what have you,

210
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 2: someone has to pay the bills to pay an I wouldn't.

211
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,200
Speaker 2: You wouldn't if you live in Islam, you would dump

212
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,200
Speaker 2: because you have very little money and your priority is

213
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,600
Speaker 2: to feed your kids and necessities. And the luxury paying

214
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 2: for your garbage to be taken away is too high.

215
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,439
Speaker 2: So you need to find some degree of cross subsidies

216
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,040
Speaker 2: for that which people are willing to pay for. But

217
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 2: on the plastic itself, the reduction itself, and the alternatives itself, no,

218
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 2: there we are not talking these extraordinary costs. What we

219
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 2: need to think about because the poor people who may

220
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 2: not be able to afford to buy a big container

221
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,200
Speaker 2: of stuff, will buy whatever they need in a sachet.

222
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,920
Speaker 2: So that's where we've seen some really neat innovation, for

223
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,679
Speaker 2: example El Grammo in Chile, where you own a bottle

224
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,240
Speaker 2: with your little microchip and you go to the store

225
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,960
Speaker 2: and you buy a grammo the grams that you can afford.

226
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 2: If you can afford twenty grams, you press the button,

227
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 2: you get the twenty of whatever. So whatever it is

228
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 2: that you need, and you are done and at bottle

229
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 2: as yours forever. It's this kind of innovation that we

230
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 2: need to leapfrog into so that we can get rid

231
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 2: of the plastic I'm not denying the OCD study, but

232
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 2: we need to think of them. And that's why I'm

233
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,320
Speaker 2: speaking to all the ifi's development banks, et cetera. They

234
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 2: really need to lean in on the solid waste management.

235
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,800
Speaker 1: After the break, how to get companies to do the

236
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 1: work on cutting plastic pollution.

237
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,760
Speaker 3: Well, the science of climate change has been clear for

238
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 3: a long time, and it's only become more and more certain.

239
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,920
Speaker 3: But that's not allowed for progress to happen at pace.

240
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 3: That is not to say progress can't happen under the

241
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 3: UN system. We had the Montreal Protocol back in nineteen

242
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,200
Speaker 3: eighty seven, another Unit convention, indeed, very clear mandates to

243
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 3: try and reduce there a set of gases that were

244
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 3: causing the ozone layer to break apart and all kinds

245
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 3: of problems that follow from that. We've seen the result

246
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 3: of that show over the next thirty years. The osen

247
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 3: hole is currently filling up and filling up quickly. So

248
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 3: these things can work. But the same group of countries

249
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,880
Speaker 3: that have caused a problem on the climate sphere are

250
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 3: also the group of countries that are trying to cause

251
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,080
Speaker 3: a problem on the plastics treat And one of the

252
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,040
Speaker 3: ways in which they do it is they say energy

253
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 3: is needed for development. They were able to insert that

254
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,480
Speaker 3: phrase in the Zero draft that was published earlier this year,

255
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 3: where they said, yes we lend plastic pollution as long

256
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 3: as it supports sustainable development. How are you going to

257
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 3: deal with those forces?

258
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 2: So, first of all, there are many pieces to what

259
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 2: you said. Obviously, the producers of plastic plastic comes from

260
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 2: virgin raw polymer. Obviously, hydrocarbons ie oil and gas are

261
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,000
Speaker 2: the foundational element to produce new virgin raw polymer, which

262
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 2: often is delivered in small nodules and can be then

263
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,000
Speaker 2: made into anything from airplanes to your toothbrush or whatever.

264
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,880
Speaker 2: The point is that many, many, many countries, way beyond

265
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 2: the producers, have a plastics industry. Frankly, I was looking up.

266
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 2: It's hard to find a country that does not have

267
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 2: a plastics industry, even if it's not very big. But

268
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 2: these are jobs, and so some of the countries are

269
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 2: concerned about Okay, yes, this is fine, but what happens

270
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,680
Speaker 2: as we shift to alternatives? Will they only be made

271
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 2: in the global north? Where's the R and D? Is

272
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,280
Speaker 2: there going to be justice? Will we have access to

273
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 2: the new I mean, these are real issues that are

274
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 2: concerning on the issue of new raw polymers. Obviously, yes,

275
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 2: the countries that produce the polymer could be argued that

276
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 2: they have an interest to keep producing. On the other hand,

277
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 2: there is an understanding even amongst their populations that recycling

278
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,160
Speaker 2: and recycle content is critical. They too live on oceans,

279
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 2: they too experience this. They too have a population that

280
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,159
Speaker 2: objects to plastic in the waste stream. And what the

281
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 2: zero draft speaks to elimination of the single use the

282
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,399
Speaker 2: single use packaging. We can do a lot, and yes,

283
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,919
Speaker 2: obviously they're commercial interest, but I think the other force

284
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 2: is quite strong, and you rightly pointed out the Montreal protocol.

285
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 2: And if I could just go back and remind listeners

286
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 2: that in their seventies, when the theory that fluorinated gases

287
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,879
Speaker 2: were in fact what depleted the ozone layer, it was

288
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 2: highly disputed by very large American companies. There was hearings

289
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 2: in the Senate where extraordinary things were said about how

290
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,679
Speaker 2: this would be impossible to face out, face down, face whatever.

291
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 2: This wasn't a word at the time, but you know,

292
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 2: eliminate from the production. At the time, the world was told,

293
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 2: your food will spoil, your vaccines will go off, and

294
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,439
Speaker 2: you will be very hot because they're not going to

295
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 2: be any cooling. And yet the industry was able to

296
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 2: step in. There are many many alternatives, and some are

297
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,160
Speaker 2: with us, but we're just not using them fast enough,

298
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,120
Speaker 2: and others we need to invent. And what's very interesting

299
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,120
Speaker 2: is that we are seeing many of the brand owners

300
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 2: actually it's detracting from their shareholder value and from their

301
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 2: company employee pride, and obviously from their brand. When their

302
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 2: packaging is bobbing around in the water or lying on

303
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 2: the side of the street. It is not a good

304
00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 2: thing nowadays. And so I think brand owners, many of

305
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 2: whom I speak to at the CEO levels. I also

306
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 2: seek to lean in. I say to those countries that

307
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 2: are holding on to plastic in the places where it's replaceable.

308
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 2: We still need it for planes, trains, cars, appliances, electrical

309
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 2: and all of that. But that kind of plastic doesn't

310
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 2: end up in the environment. It's a packaging that does.

311
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 2: I say to those brand owners. Look at the solar

312
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,520
Speaker 2: industry PV. The early bird got the worm. Those who

313
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: started investing and now controlling that market, step in and

314
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 2: lead in this way so that you can be part

315
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: of that innovation way, because it will come like it

316
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,959
Speaker 2: came on cooling, like it came on photovol takes.

317
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 3: It's clear that there are solutions and that there are

318
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,719
Speaker 3: places where these solutions have started to work. One solution

319
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,360
Speaker 3: that has popular and has scaled up is the plastic

320
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 3: bottle fee, where you pay a little bit when you

321
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 3: buy the bottle and if when you return it to

322
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 3: the right place, you get some money back. These solutions exist,

323
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 3: they need to be scaled up. But if you just

324
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 3: look at companies. The Ellen MacArthur Foundation listed one hundred

325
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 3: and fifty companies in twenty eighteen that said they would

326
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 3: report on and reduce their plastic pollution by twenty twenty five.

327
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 3: But five years on twenty companies have dropped out many

328
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 3: major brands and they are unwilling to either meet the

329
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: criteria or even take part in what was an obligation

330
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 3: that seemed pretty reasonable. Why do you think a treaty

331
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 3: which is being talked about by governments will actually get

332
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 3: companies to do so.

333
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 2: I grew up in Denmark. We always had a collect scheme.

334
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 2: When I was a kid. It was glass and if

335
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 2: you found a glass bottle as a little five year old,

336
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 2: you would pick it up. It would be like fifty cents,

337
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 2: I mean, and you could go and get a lollipop

338
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 2: for that or whatever. So and now it's also plastic

339
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 2: and you put them into a machine either by way

340
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 2: to buy individual code, and out pops a little thing

341
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: that you then used to pay for your groceries. I

342
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 2: could never walk past a can or a bottle in denmarket.

343
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: It's like walking past money lying on the ground. And

344
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 2: so what these individual companies did. They put up their

345
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 2: hands and we're willing to do this, but if there

346
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,919
Speaker 2: is no system by which I take it all to

347
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: the grocery shop or the supermarket, and everything, whether it's

348
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 2: pepsi or Coca Cola or Procter and Gamble or it

349
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 2: has to go through the same system. Honestly, it's hard

350
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: for people to this one goes here, that one goes there.

351
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 2: It's a little bit like when you stand with your

352
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 2: ice cream wrapping in front of the recycling and joy, okay,

353
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 2: is this here or is it there? And where does

354
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 2: it go? The system has to be one that has

355
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 2: been enabled across a jurisdiction, normally a country or a

356
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 2: group of countries. If that is in place by legislation,

357
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 2: the national level logic follows. It's just how it works.

358
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 3: Are there countries in the world where there has been

359
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 3: legislation put in place to deal with plastic pollution that

360
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 3: you think are good case studies to follow? You mentioned Denmark,

361
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 3: Well are examples. Perhaps I would look.

362
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 2: At Rwanda and Kenya as the I mean Rwanda came

363
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,639
Speaker 2: first and Kenya on its heels, and now a number

364
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: of countries on the continent of Africa. Rwanda banned plastic bags.

365
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: You're going to have to double check, but like two

366
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 2: thousand and seven and Kenya is shortly thereafter, and significant

367
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: finds follow. If you're caught with a plastic bag significant

368
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: in terms of and or jail time. The National Environmental

369
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 2: Management Authority of Kenya, for example, it's sort of similar

370
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 2: to drug busts, except it's illegal plastic bag production busts,

371
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 2: and the criminals are lined up and on Twitter and

372
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 2: you see them all and shamefaced and so and so forth.

373
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: You cannot when you land in Nairobi, the air announcement

374
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: will come. If you have a plastic bag, you got

375
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,479
Speaker 2: to leave it on the plane, do not take it

376
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: into the country. That's how it is. And it's phenomenal,

377
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. And so you know it's only bags, yes,

378
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,719
Speaker 2: but it's a very very good beginning and people are

379
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 2: very aware of it. And we don't have like you

380
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: have in other poor countries where solid waste is absent,

381
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 2: plastic bank trees, you know, where they have blown onto trees,

382
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: not at all.

383
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 3: It just does not exist.

384
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: And so that's I mean, the beautification, the absence of

385
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 2: the drainage clogging and so on. Not to say Kenya

386
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: doesn't have plastic pollution, because it does because of the

387
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: packaging for cleaning products and so on. But this is

388
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: the next step. Kenya, for example, it's just rolling out

389
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 2: an EPR legislation on this exact thing. Rwanda similarly and

390
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 2: other countries do. So, yes, it's not just the North

391
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: and that's what I will probably finish with if we're

392
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: coming up towards the end. That's what I would like

393
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: to really stras that this is not a North South story.

394
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: It was Peru and Rwanda that sponsored the resolution at

395
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: the United Nations Environment Assembly, and then they got others

396
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: to jump in the Nordic see, some of the Europeans obviously,

397
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: the Pacific Islands and more and more to support that resolution.

398
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: So it is not just a North South story. It

399
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: is really a story lit by the global south where

400
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 2: the global nrcessor Yeah, we can get with this, and

401
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: that's quite exciting too.

402
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 3: Well. I wish you much luck for coming up with

403
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 3: a global treaty in short order, and I hope we

404
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: can catch up once it's done.

405
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 2: It will be my pleasure.

406
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Thank you for listening to zero.

407
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please take a moment to

408
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify,

409
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: Share this episode with a friend or with your local

410
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: flight dipper. You can get in touch at zero Pod

411
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and

412
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: senior producer is Christine Riskell. Our theme music is composed

413
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: by Wonderly Special thanks to Kira Binrim, Leslie Kaufman, and

414
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: Tiffany Joy him ma Akshatrati back next week