Speaker 1: Pushkin. Miguel, the Grammy winning ALTS R and B pioneer,
Speaker 1: is back with a new album, Chaos, his first full
Speaker 1: length in eight years. It's the latest step in a
Speaker 1: career that's always pushed the boundaries of R and B,
Speaker 1: from his twenty ten debut, through albums that dabbled in psychedelia,
Speaker 1: dance music, and now touches of eighties industrial and even rancherrhythms.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Miguel talks with Lea Rose about his
Speaker 1: unreleased twenty twenty three album Viscera, and how suspending himself
Speaker 1: from piercings in his back during its rollout helped him
Speaker 1: surrender control. He also shares a story behind the controversial
Speaker 1: imagery for his single New Martyrs, and despite collaborations with
Speaker 1: Travis Scott, Mariah Carey, and Tamimpala, Miguel explains why he's
Speaker 1: happiest just making music with his friends. This is broken record,
Speaker 1: real musicians, real conversations. Here's Lea Rose in conversation with Miguel.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to ask you about the song
Speaker 2: New Martyrs. I'm curious how you came upon the artwork
Speaker 2: for the song and tell me what the artwork is
Speaker 2: how you came up with the idea and what the
Speaker 2: thinking is behind it.
Speaker 3: So the artwork is.
Speaker 4: Almost like a meme because you know, this year, I
Speaker 4: think seeing Luigi Mangioni, you know, carry out what he
Speaker 4: felt was right, regardless of what it meant in terms
Speaker 4: of the law, and morally, seeing how that played out
Speaker 4: and how that resonated with so many people with their
Speaker 4: anger and their angst. And I'm going to go out
Speaker 4: on a limb here and say the disenfranchised and powerless
Speaker 4: feeling of watching a political system sort of cannibalize itself
Speaker 4: right in front of you, and see how corporate interest
Speaker 4: is really infiltrated and manipulated what is meant to be
Speaker 4: an equitable process and all inclusive process.
Speaker 3: It really is infuriating.
Speaker 4: And to see people really get behind an action that
Speaker 4: feels like vigilanteism in any other case would be considered
Speaker 4: absolutely wrong, unjust, but having that context and then also
Speaker 4: understanding the story behind the personal injustice that behind the execution,
Speaker 4: you know, seeing how people respond to that is like
Speaker 4: even I'm like, nah, yeah, I mean, you're really putting
Speaker 4: your money before people's health, You're overlooking your humanity for
Speaker 4: your own greed, and I feel this is a something
Speaker 4: that hit me so hard that I had to really
Speaker 4: look at myself and go, I mean, am I wrong
Speaker 4: for a kind of being in agreement?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Am I wrong for feeling like he kind of did
Speaker 4: the right thing on behalf of a lot of people
Speaker 4: who've been shitted on, you know, and more importantly, like,
Speaker 4: who have you know, had their loved ones at the
Speaker 4: cost of their loved ones, of their own lives of
Speaker 4: you know, so real humanity, you know, at the cost
Speaker 4: of humanity. I think this is something we're going to
Speaker 4: see more and more as we continue. I think that's
Speaker 4: a domino until there's some real correction, you know, until
Speaker 4: there's some real justice established and awaited to make right
Speaker 4: on things moving forward. I think that's why I have
Speaker 4: this dream where I'm like kind of like just doing
Speaker 4: what I feel is right, even though it may seem wrong.
Speaker 4: It's very much inspired by seeing that happen, seeing their response,
Speaker 4: and also addressing my own angst, my own anger and
Speaker 4: dissatisfaction with the world as it is not just this country,
Speaker 4: and so New Martyrs is about that line towards the
Speaker 4: end where it's like, yeah, give me what's mine. I
Speaker 4: think a lot of people feel that way, and more
Speaker 4: and more people are going to feel that way more so.
Speaker 3: What's behind that is like.
Speaker 4: Do right by me and right by us, right by
Speaker 4: the world, do the right thing because right now there's
Speaker 4: a lot of wrong being done.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of wrong and it's not.
Speaker 4: Like it hasn't been that way and what we know
Speaker 4: to be human history and our but it certainly feels
Speaker 4: as if it is insurmountable or is Yeah, maybe because
Speaker 4: we can tune in on everything at all times, whenever
Speaker 4: we want. But that feeling, I think a lot of
Speaker 4: people feel that way, and that's what inspired That's how
Speaker 4: I feel, and that's what inspired the song.
Speaker 2: How do you toe the line between bringing in these
Speaker 2: bigger issues like I know you've been active in issues
Speaker 2: around immigration and mass incarceration, but you're also known for
Speaker 2: making sensual, sexy baby making music, Like, how do you
Speaker 2: toe the line and talk about both of these things
Speaker 2: at the same time?
Speaker 4: I remind myself that as a human experience and people
Speaker 4: who only focus on are who primarily focus on, you know,
Speaker 4: speaking out about injustice, activism. Artists and musicians who who
Speaker 4: do those things are also human beings, and they also,
Speaker 4: you know, they have their own sexual life, they have
Speaker 4: their own romantic relationships and their experience with those things,
Speaker 4: and it's their prerogative to talk about those things when
Speaker 4: they want, and it's their choice not too or to.
Speaker 4: And this, for me, I think is probably top of
Speaker 4: mind because this is the world that I'm inheriting, that
Speaker 4: I've inherited, and I'm also in a position in my
Speaker 4: age and my experience to hold myself accountable and I
Speaker 4: can't not do that. I'm not twenty one or eighteen
Speaker 4: when I wrote Quickie. It's a different thing, you know.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, these things have become increasingly important in
Speaker 4: my mind, and I think naturally that that is why
Speaker 4: it's becoming more important to in my music.
Speaker 2: Do you ever question, like, if there's someone you're working with,
Speaker 2: like a producer, whoever's in the studio with you, do
Speaker 2: you ever turn to them and say like, oh, is this?
Speaker 2: Am I going too far with this?
Speaker 3: Definitely?
Speaker 2: Is this a downer? Yeah?
Speaker 3: How does that work? I mean it's pretty much like that.
Speaker 3: I'm like, is this too much?
Speaker 4: The great thing about I work with my friends, I
Speaker 4: think I've learned that that's the best way to maintain
Speaker 4: like that sense of play, the permission to explore.
Speaker 3: I just want to work with my friends.
Speaker 4: Man, I've done the transactional thing, and that shit sucks
Speaker 4: all the time. One, it's rarely a collaboration because it's
Speaker 4: easy to do shit, you know, remotely, so it's not
Speaker 4: like we're getting in a room and we're really collaborating,
Speaker 4: at least not in my experience. And when it's no
Speaker 4: friendship in the middle. If that's not the thing, then
Speaker 4: you got to go do some wax shit like promote
Speaker 4: a song that you that you would never ever do
Speaker 4: on your own. It would never come from your expression.
Speaker 4: It's not your point of view. And I to a degree,
Speaker 4: I can appreciate stepping into stepping into someone else's world
Speaker 4: and remaining in your point of view and in your
Speaker 4: style and you know, having a presence in a new way.
Speaker 4: I think there's beautiful times when that's happened, but most
Speaker 4: times it I think in the past when I've seen that,
Speaker 4: it's been like people who really fuck with each other,
Speaker 4: like they can go have they can go have a drink,
Speaker 4: they like the same kind of movies, or have something
Speaker 4: at the core that's like, oh no, like, I really
Speaker 4: fuck with you. What happens when it's not like that?
Speaker 4: It's like, now you got to go support not just
Speaker 4: the song, but like the video and then the promo
Speaker 4: behind it that turns out to be mad corny, and
Speaker 4: then you find out the person is really just a politician,
Speaker 4: and then you know what I mean, They're like, you
Speaker 4: don't you could care less, Like it's easy to become
Speaker 4: just some shit you don't want to do. So I
Speaker 4: work with my friends and in a room when I'm
Speaker 4: feeling like is this too much, they just be like
Speaker 4: do that, No, just do your shit, like just do it,
Speaker 4: do it, do it all. And most times the things
Speaker 4: that don't fit naturally will sort of kind of like
Speaker 4: they just get pushed to the side.
Speaker 2: How do you get in the proper headspace to cord
Speaker 2: and to express yourself and to be vulnerable or to
Speaker 2: be open. Have you found anything over the course of
Speaker 2: your career that really gets you there? Like whether it's
Speaker 2: like having a drink or like push ups or whatever
Speaker 2: it is like a certain time of night, have you
Speaker 2: found anything that gets you there?
Speaker 4: I mean in different stages, has been different things. For sure,
Speaker 4: alcohol was a big one, I mean a little tequila
Speaker 4: in the past. Was it before it was whiskey like
Speaker 4: Kaleidoscope dream is like whiskey and weed forties Nope, It's
Speaker 4: like I don't know why I was drinking forties.
Speaker 3: I was like like pounding forties.
Speaker 4: And yeah the aquila and wild Heart actually is the
Speaker 4: quila into mescot. So I was like finding, Wow, I
Speaker 4: was finding like mescov and smoking for sure Wildheart.
Speaker 3: I'm like smoking a lot of weed.
Speaker 4: I also like, I think it's really it's really interesting
Speaker 4: how drugs have influenced music along in these different periods
Speaker 4: of time. I mean, like jazz, it's like speed, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like when jazz heroin right, it's
Speaker 4: like ending right. Or you listen to grunge music and
Speaker 4: you're like, yeah, heroin is this it's a heroin time.
Speaker 4: You're listening to how crack and cocaine influenced you know,
Speaker 4: hip hop, and it's it's play in that timeframe and
Speaker 4: the emerging artists. Drugs and alcohol and all kinds of
Speaker 4: illicit activity have always been a part of music and creativity,
Speaker 4: whether it be fine art or music and fine art.
Speaker 4: For me, getting in that headspace has been different in
Speaker 4: each era. This time, this album. I mean, I still
Speaker 4: love to drink. I hate to even say this, but like,
Speaker 4: if I'm out and there's a photo of me, I
Speaker 4: will guarantee you nine times out of ten I have
Speaker 4: I love I love this guys social lubricat and I'm
Speaker 4: very much a like introvert. Extrovert is like, I'm yeah, same,
Speaker 4: I can do that extroverted thing. I very much like
Speaker 4: to be for a time, for a time. The social
Speaker 4: meter is not it's not a large social media, but
Speaker 4: it exists. And I do think that you know, a
Speaker 4: little mescal with uh with sparkling water and the lime
Speaker 4: kind of extends the battery a little bit.
Speaker 3: That sounds nice, It sounds incredible right now.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you can go out for a period, but
Speaker 2: then you want to like rush home and get into
Speaker 2: the bean bag and just chill and just.
Speaker 4: Right in this room with a record, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, in a conversation with a couple handful of
Speaker 4: like really fun interesting people, and.
Speaker 2: I'm good, yeah, yeah, no, I feel that very deeply.
Speaker 2: What are you listening to these days? Like, is there
Speaker 2: any new old music you've discovered or what have you
Speaker 2: been reaching for.
Speaker 4: New old Well, this album in this period, I've been
Speaker 4: really going back and like leaning into all all my
Speaker 4: like more alternative tastes and then fluences, going back to
Speaker 4: Pixie's records, going back to that whole grunge era, so
Speaker 4: all of Nirvana, all of Sound Garden, all of that
Speaker 4: sort of like you know Seattle area, Yeah yeah. Then
Speaker 4: jumping into some of like jungle stuff has been a
Speaker 4: big one. I've been like trying to find ways to
Speaker 4: infuse rhythms and chord progressions that just are nostalgic or
Speaker 4: styles that are nostalgic.
Speaker 3: To my to my youth.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 4: So kum Yah is one of those ones where you'll
Speaker 4: hear a little bit of that, and like Francea, you'll
Speaker 4: get a little bit of that in Chaos. I think overall,
Speaker 4: what I was searching for in listening to music and
Speaker 4: influences like anything that felt dissonant. I felt like there's
Speaker 4: a rub there that that created the tension that I
Speaker 4: was looking for.
Speaker 2: Do you still feel in a place where you're recognizing
Speaker 2: and thinking about chaos or has that all been exercised
Speaker 2: out through the album?
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 3: On the contrary, I.
Speaker 4: Want to wield it more effectively. I mean my my
Speaker 4: thinking on it is this like it's just about conditions
Speaker 4: to grow are conditions in general? If it's not growing,
Speaker 4: it's dead. Shout out to Lauren Hill. I mean, one
Speaker 4: of the most poignant things that she said in an
Speaker 4: interview is like, if it's not growing, it's dead. And
Speaker 4: it's the truth. And for me, what I've realized is
Speaker 4: that in many ways, I think I've I believe in
Speaker 4: my core that we all need a little chaos to grow.
Speaker 4: Maybe I'm wrong, I know for me that's the outside
Speaker 4: of my depth that Bowie talks about is the place
Speaker 4: where an artist really can thrive. It's the unknowing, it's
Speaker 4: the uncertainty that pushes it outside of that comfort zone
Speaker 4: that that means we need to stretch in not ways
Speaker 4: that we necessarily know, but that we need. And so chaos,
Speaker 4: I think in my life this album represents my acknowledgment
Speaker 4: of the chaos that I've created in my life and
Speaker 4: making peace with it in a lot of ways in
Speaker 4: order to better utilize it for my purpose. And while
Speaker 4: I'm here and I want to continue to curate chaos
Speaker 4: in my life.
Speaker 2: How are you going to do that? How do you
Speaker 2: curate chaos in your life right now, like intentionally like
Speaker 2: mess up a situation just to get the feel that
Speaker 2: feeling and kind of like use that for growth. Is
Speaker 2: that what that means?
Speaker 4: Not toxic chasts. We don't want any more toxic chaos though.
Speaker 4: Old habits die hard, And I think me stepping into
Speaker 4: my adulthood and my responsibility is one way that I
Speaker 4: ensure that the chaos that I do curate in my
Speaker 4: life is really intentional. So I look at ways of
Speaker 4: like how do I infuse something that is not obvious
Speaker 4: and it's not normal or natural? So taking, I mean
Speaker 4: what a simple way is like like I love that
Speaker 4: port his head on three, Like switch up their whole
Speaker 4: all of their their instruments instead of everyone is playing
Speaker 4: a different instrument.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Every that's chaos to me because no one is in
Speaker 4: a comfort zone when it's not.
Speaker 3: No, I understand that, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: So I think of chaos in my life in that way.
Speaker 4: We definitely don't want any any more toxicity. Yes, we
Speaker 4: don't need it. It's I don't think that's necessary.
Speaker 2: No, especially not when you're approaching forty.
Speaker 4: I want look, and that's it, isn't it. It's a
Speaker 4: crazy thing because I know.
Speaker 2: For me, I wanted I want all stability.
Speaker 1: Bruh.
Speaker 4: I'm like, like I said, it is like I want
Speaker 4: to I want peace in my life in general, but again,
Speaker 4: controlled chaos in the right places, whether it's like shaking
Speaker 4: up my team and infusing someone who's not in the
Speaker 4: music business in a role that maybe is adjacent in
Speaker 4: a different field, you know, in a different yeah field,
Speaker 4: so that we have fresh thinking that we're we're not
Speaker 4: approaching things in yeah with the constructs of the status
Speaker 4: quo in mind. You know, it's like the chaos that
Speaker 4: means we're breaking rules, but for with a purpose.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So did you realizing your place in the chaos or
Speaker 2: maybe creating it in some way where you weren't completely
Speaker 2: aware of it. Did you realize that through just natural
Speaker 2: aging or was it through like therapy work. I know
Speaker 2: you're about to turn forty and this album's coming out
Speaker 2: on your fortieth birthday. Yeah, that seems like a really
Speaker 2: big milestone, Like, how are you thinking about turning forty?
Speaker 4: I mean, I think for whatever reason, I've I wrote
Speaker 4: this song when I was much younger that I that
Speaker 4: we never put out called Hardway, which is like I
Speaker 4: always learned the hard way. Actually, no, it's on it's
Speaker 4: on the first album. What am I talking about? It's
Speaker 4: on the first album. See my brain is oxidizing as
Speaker 4: we speak. There's a song on the first album called
Speaker 4: hard Way, and it's like I always learned the hard way,
Speaker 4: and and I.
Speaker 3: Hate to have like.
Speaker 4: Maybe put that out in the that energy out there,
Speaker 4: or I've accepted that. But in some ways I've been
Speaker 4: able to see things before they happen and change course.
Speaker 4: But in a lot of ways, you know, I have
Speaker 4: learned the hard way, and I've been lucky to not
Speaker 4: learn the hardest way. But I've got a few bruises
Speaker 4: and scars, you know that that you know are reminders,
Speaker 4: And I think that's the that's the journey of life.
Speaker 3: Anyways.
Speaker 4: It's like Unterests Thompson, like not wanting to reach the
Speaker 4: end pristine and clean, but with fire shooting out of
Speaker 4: the back and screeching barely crossing the threshold. I think
Speaker 4: something about that has always been the way that I imagine
Speaker 4: my life kind of going. And thankfully it hasn't meant
Speaker 4: that I have reached the finish line prematurely, and I've
Speaker 4: been here at this point, I want to make sure
Speaker 4: it doesn't happen prematurely. But I do know of its
Speaker 4: seem like a healthy guy like or that's the key,
Speaker 4: seem nah yeah, yeah, yeah, like.
Speaker 2: You seem like healthy mind and body, like you're thinking
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 4: I mean, having the opportunity to do this every day,
Speaker 4: you know, and to express one's selves and one's emotions,
Speaker 4: I think is a key. And for me it's been
Speaker 4: the true meditation of my life. And I found you know,
Speaker 4: there's other tools that are super helpful. I think musicians
Speaker 4: and artists and of all me, through through all mediums
Speaker 4: do find real solace and peace when they're able to
Speaker 4: create and they find that connection.
Speaker 3: To the higher thing.
Speaker 4: But overall, I don't want to paint I don't want
Speaker 4: to paint myself into any corner where like I'm like
Speaker 4: out here just causing havoc or anything like that. But
Speaker 4: I do know that, you know, I've had to learn
Speaker 4: some hard lessons like anyone in the world, and I
Speaker 4: think I'm at a place in my life where I
Speaker 4: want to be real intentional about you know, the past.
Speaker 4: Let's taken that I really want to take, you know,
Speaker 4: and ones that actually are worth my time, are worthy
Speaker 4: of the effort, worthy of the risk, as opposed to
Speaker 4: kind of going into things too haphazardly.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Miguel after the break.
Speaker 2: Was you getting into the suspension thing where you were
Speaker 2: hanging from your piercings? That seems very chaotic to me?
Speaker 2: Is that along the same lines of thinking for you?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: The Tribby part about that is that even physiologically what
Speaker 4: that does is it actually well, first and foremost, it's
Speaker 4: like an adrenaline rush, right, and something about that is
Speaker 4: very calming. I found it to be really meditative and
Speaker 4: not chaotic. I mean, doing suspension has a different purpose
Speaker 4: and meaning for every person that has ever done it
Speaker 4: or that practices it. I wouldn't say that I practice suspension.
Speaker 4: But the purpose of doing suspension at the time was
Speaker 4: to open up a conversation that is relevant to this album,
Speaker 4: and that is like, what is my relation to pain?
Speaker 4: Why do I carry pain with pride? What pain am
Speaker 4: I carrying that I'm not really addressing or acknowledging? And
Speaker 4: how is that a part of the story I've written
Speaker 4: about myself? How does that enabling? How is it fueling?
Speaker 4: And how is it like holding me back. It was
Speaker 4: about having that conversation and kind of like giving it
Speaker 4: a visceral reference, but it was all about understanding pain
Speaker 4: and wanting to talk about talk about it publicly, which
Speaker 4: I believe we carried over into this album.
Speaker 2: What happened with that album it evolved.
Speaker 4: It definitely evolved. Viscera was initially it was initially meant
Speaker 4: to be bad Habits sad Anthems, which I still think
Speaker 4: is a fucking ill ast title. And then it became
Speaker 4: not just me wanting to just do an album of
Speaker 4: like kind of like the antithesis of what people know
Speaker 4: most about my music, and I think that it's like
Speaker 4: feel good, romantic, sensual dreamy to kind of go like,
Speaker 4: all right, how do I shake this up and make
Speaker 4: space for the other side of the coin, which is
Speaker 4: like that I do have bad habits, that there are
Speaker 4: sad anthems, and I wanted to do a whole album
Speaker 4: about that, and I think I in that process it
Speaker 4: was getting real heavy. It was like two even for me,
Speaker 4: I was like, maybe some of this stays in the vault.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Did anything from that album carry out over to
Speaker 2: the new album?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say a good quarter of that record.
Speaker 4: It was actually kind of like became what is chaos?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the album is so good, by the way, or
Speaker 2: what I've heard of the album is so great.
Speaker 3: That's really kind. Thank you so much, Thank you.
Speaker 2: I love the title track. Tell me about just the
Speaker 2: overall sound for it and what your vision was for it,
Speaker 2: how it came together.
Speaker 4: It started out I'd come up across a children's choir
Speaker 4: on Instagram and they had done do you remember that
Speaker 4: the THHXU? It was a crescendo, But it was kind
Speaker 4: of like, yes, you go to the movies for those
Speaker 4: of for those of you who aren't, you know who
Speaker 4: don't haven't been to the movies back in like the
Speaker 4: nineties or before that. You know, as you intro a movie,
Speaker 4: they wanted to flex the sound in the room, and
Speaker 4: very often the companies would have an audio kind of
Speaker 4: intro to give you a sense of like the ability
Speaker 4: and you know how incredible the sound system was and
Speaker 4: I think it's thx Please correct me. I'm sure someone
Speaker 4: will afterwards. But it was one of those companies that
Speaker 4: it had this beautiful crescendo, a chordal crescendo, and these
Speaker 4: kids were doing that that crescendo, but with their voices
Speaker 4: a children's choir doing it a glissano up or a
Speaker 4: port upwards. And I was like, man, this is so cool.
Speaker 4: And I asked the children, so, you know, asked them
Speaker 4: to come and they did, and they basically saying this
Speaker 4: part it's just.
Speaker 3: A then.
Speaker 4: And they do like a that whole gliss report and
Speaker 4: I just was like, this is the coolest shit.
Speaker 3: And I was like, we got to use that.
Speaker 4: Kind of sampled that first, and then I programmed like
Speaker 4: a rough drum section that I felt was like I
Speaker 4: wanted it to drive because I had this idea about
Speaker 4: talking about just chaos and what chaos is place in
Speaker 4: my life, and it just felt kind of the notes
Speaker 4: felt like they were giving me that It's dramatic, you know,
Speaker 4: it feels very dramatic, and it is kind of it
Speaker 4: kind of pulls you in.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit haunting too, it's a little bit creepy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: It was just interesting the emotional context of visually watching
Speaker 4: them really be in it and like kind of the
Speaker 4: joy they're getting out of performing this thing.
Speaker 3: But then how the how it feels, how the notes.
Speaker 4: Feel against each other, and I thought that was the
Speaker 4: perfect place, and it sparked this idea that you know,
Speaker 4: in my life, I've subconsciously, i think, curated chaos in
Speaker 4: one way or the other in my life, and I've
Speaker 4: i think I've finally kind of come to a place
Speaker 4: where I'm understanding what that's about. I've never really taken
Speaker 4: time to really look at it, and that really set
Speaker 4: off the whole, the whole idea. It was like, man,
Speaker 4: there's a there's a childlike part of me that plays
Speaker 4: into this, and there's a joy that I get out
Speaker 4: of it that I don't understand, and that's why the
Speaker 4: first line is like I think I'm better under pressure,
Speaker 4: and that sort of sets the stage for the album,
Speaker 4: you know, and and the.
Speaker 3: Rest kind of kind of unfolds as it goes. So cool.
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that for the title track, you made
Speaker 2: sort of what sounds like a sketch of the beat,
Speaker 2: and then you passed.
Speaker 3: It to Bray.
Speaker 4: That's my that's my one of my best friends, and
Speaker 4: we've worked on this album a lot together, so we
Speaker 4: produced the song together. But the drum programming specifically is
Speaker 4: like that's his. I mean, he's incredible across the board,
Speaker 4: but I mean the way the drums hit, that's definitely
Speaker 4: his shit.
Speaker 3: I learned a lot.
Speaker 4: Working with him through this album, so on the technical
Speaker 4: side and as a producer.
Speaker 2: So is that normally how it goes for you? Like
Speaker 2: do you normally make sketches of the music and then
Speaker 2: pass it to him or what's the process usually?
Speaker 3: Like it varies kind of.
Speaker 4: Starting with Kaleidoscope Dream, I really got in my executive
Speaker 4: producer bag and really wanted to focus on the overall
Speaker 4: vision of the album and what that was communicating.
Speaker 3: Overall.
Speaker 4: I didn't produce, though I had. I was very much
Speaker 4: involved in the sonic nature of Kaleidoscope Dream and that
Speaker 4: kind of gave me a lot of confidence to actually
Speaker 4: use my own production. The only song that I produced
Speaker 4: on Kaleidoscope Dream is Adorn and that's like wow, top
Speaker 4: to bottom. So it was kind of the first time
Speaker 4: I had like I was.
Speaker 3: Like, all right, fuck it, like they fuck with it.
Speaker 4: But I was very I wasn't sure if it was
Speaker 4: if it was gonna work commercially or anything like that,
Speaker 4: like if it was going to feel professionally enough.
Speaker 3: Or what have you.
Speaker 4: Really, Yeah, so that's the first time I really like
Speaker 4: my production was released professionally and actually was you know,
Speaker 4: became something that was a success commercially.
Speaker 2: Wow. So yeah, does that make you feel like as
Speaker 2: a producer, does that validate your skills and your ear?
Speaker 2: Like what did that do to you as an artist?
Speaker 2: Knowing how well that song did.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's definitely encouraging. But there's absolute levels. There
Speaker 4: are levels to this shit. And the great thing about
Speaker 4: me is like, I'm not so focused on on how
Speaker 4: things sound sonically as much as I care about what
Speaker 4: they how they feel, you know, And I think there's
Speaker 4: a bit of ignorance that I always want to keep.
Speaker 3: I kind of like that.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't really know like what I did there,
Speaker 4: but it just felt right And that's maybe my own
Speaker 4: my own idiosyncrasy or whatever. But there's definite levels to
Speaker 4: this and it's it is a science for a lot
Speaker 4: of people. That's why you that's there's incredibly successful producers
Speaker 4: who know down to the just down to the t
Speaker 4: on how to emphasize things in different ways to like.
Speaker 2: A doctor Dre like he's supposed to be like an
Speaker 2: incredible engineer producer obviously.
Speaker 3: But also Dre like, yes, yes, but then you know,
Speaker 3: Dre is different without Quick. You have to listen.
Speaker 4: You gotta know that DJ Quick is in there mixing
Speaker 4: and carving in a way that gives that sound like
Speaker 4: that's a lot of that is Quick's DNA And like
Speaker 4: anybody who knows knows this Quick as is DJ Quick
Speaker 4: is an incredible fucking engineer like and producer. So Dre
Speaker 4: is Dre and it's always gonna be Dre. But you know,
Speaker 4: like you're like we're saying, is like to know the
Speaker 4: science of yes how as Cidic Dave Sidek is one
Speaker 4: of my brothers and best friends. Also on this album
Speaker 4: my one of my favorite things, and this is him
Speaker 4: his theory on life. He's like, one cut is worth
Speaker 4: a million boosts and that is so true across life,
Speaker 4: across music. It's like it's not always about adding a
Speaker 4: lot of times the magic is there because the magic
Speaker 4: was instinctual, that was that came from something else. Your
Speaker 4: your choice is in the in the inspirational moment, in
Speaker 4: that oh I'm inspired now, all of those things that's
Speaker 4: meant to be there. And then most times, and he
Speaker 4: would say, you know, nine times out of ten, take
Speaker 4: something out, cut something out, eq that out. What's the
Speaker 4: most important part about that frequency. What's the most penetrating
Speaker 4: part of that harmony, what's the most you know, what
Speaker 4: is it in that in that in the feeling in
Speaker 4: the music that we need to make sure we preserve
Speaker 4: that's getting in the way of the emotional intention. So yeah,
Speaker 4: learning how to do that more intimately and like on
Speaker 4: a on a more like technical level is probably one
Speaker 4: of the most enjoyable things. Working with you know close
Speaker 4: like my boy, that's my He's not black, but that's
Speaker 4: my nigga, Like you know, he's like he's that's my guy, right,
Speaker 4: you know. And and I have I'm lucky to kind
Speaker 4: of have really like brothers and best friends and like
Speaker 4: spiritual warriors that I also get to work with. So
Speaker 4: that was the I think that was the big learning
Speaker 4: on this album. And there's some failings on this album
Speaker 4: too that are that I kept that I that I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 2: Like the focus on the negative, but a failing at
Speaker 2: this point.
Speaker 4: But that's what I love about this conversation and I
Speaker 4: love watching watching episodes of this is like the insight
Speaker 4: that you get that's like really for the nerds and
Speaker 4: who care about this shit? So I can like talk
Speaker 4: shit about my own shit, like on this album is
Speaker 4: about the feeling of the music, but like it's it's
Speaker 4: really like a shitty it's my own shitty mix on
Speaker 4: the record, and like you can hear it, like I'm
Speaker 4: like playing it in any room, Like yep, that shit
Speaker 4: could have been better, but it still feels like the
Speaker 4: feeling of what I meant is still there, like kind
Speaker 4: of like there is an angst in it. But it's
Speaker 4: actually it's about the line. It's a line in the
Speaker 4: first verse which is like I become a healer. I
Speaker 4: forget myself and I become a healer, and that in
Speaker 4: this mode, when I'm avoidant and leaning into my avoidant tendencies,
Speaker 4: it often leads into wanting intimacy because it it allows
Speaker 4: me to forget myself and my own shit.
Speaker 2: But at least you're aware of it. I feel like
Speaker 2: that's the first step. You're not just doing things blindly
Speaker 2: in a pattern over.
Speaker 4: And over till you die, you know, no, no, no, yeah.
Speaker 2: Are there any other songs on the album or any
Speaker 2: other moments in the studio, anything that was where maybe
Speaker 2: you had some sort of creative awakening or something different
Speaker 2: that you can take away from this project. And maybe
Speaker 2: use in the future.
Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 4: Though it play though is like is a special one,
Speaker 4: but there's a lot of these are I mean sonically,
Speaker 4: I learned a lot, and and also in terms of
Speaker 4: like melding genre, yeah, and sort of wielding the sticky
Speaker 4: parts or the parts of certain genres that just I
Speaker 4: a very they are very much a part of my identity,
Speaker 4: infusing them together to make something that feels unique to me.
Speaker 4: This was a really fun experience that I think will
Speaker 4: inform the next couple records because I'm only I'm planning
Speaker 4: on leaning more into my heritage and more like the
Speaker 4: rhythms and approaches on both sides, but that are more
Speaker 4: like ethnic, you know, like my ethnic influences and leaning
Speaker 4: into those even more than I did this time, and
Speaker 4: marrying them even more with my cultural influences. I feel,
Speaker 4: I feel that I'm I'm right at the cusp of
Speaker 4: something that's really uniquely mine. Finally, and I think which
Speaker 4: is exciting for me is like going harder, going harder,
Speaker 4: and leading into them more.
Speaker 1: One last break and will be back with Lee Rose
Speaker 1: and Miguel.
Speaker 2: I feel like You've always had such a strong point
Speaker 2: of view and a lot of what you did early
Speaker 2: on helped sort of birth this whole like all R
Speaker 2: and B genre that is now just commonplace where it
Speaker 2: didn't used to be commonplace at all.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: But when you say that you found, you feel like
Speaker 2: you finally found your voice. What does that sound like like?
Speaker 2: How would you describe that?
Speaker 4: I think the I think the rhythmic nature of that's
Speaker 4: just a part of where my parents come from and
Speaker 4: their experience and their parents come from. There is something
Speaker 4: that is universal about that that.
Speaker 3: I just have.
Speaker 4: I feel we're just scratching the surface on on this record,
Speaker 4: and it only happens in a couple places. I would
Speaker 4: love to lean into that as well as that alternative.
Speaker 4: I think the alternative, if you want to call it.
Speaker 4: That influence in my music has always been there, and
Speaker 4: so I want to experiment more with how I can
Speaker 4: make those work together and then also make my you know,
Speaker 4: my songwriting, make it more cohesive and sharpen my my
Speaker 4: songwriting on the you know, on the Spanish side, I
Speaker 4: think there's so much I'm excited to do that and
Speaker 4: to work with incredible songwriters and learn from them because
Speaker 4: there's a whole opportunity and unlocks the whole opportunity in
Speaker 4: terms of connecting ideas and that don't work in English,
Speaker 4: you know, so like the lateral thinking and the fun
Speaker 4: part about songwriting is like how we're connecting one thing
Speaker 4: to the next, not just by rhyme, but by like
Speaker 4: the analogies, all of the all the literary tools and
Speaker 4: how that can with that unlocks in terms of what
Speaker 4: I can say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, growing up, was there a lot of music in
Speaker 2: the house, Like what was what role did music play
Speaker 2: in your household?
Speaker 4: Music for me was was an escape when my parents
Speaker 4: were still together, so that only goes into age eight.
Speaker 3: In the house was I mean hip hop, lots of funk.
Speaker 4: My dad was kind of a yacht rock loved yacht rock,
Speaker 4: loved classic rock. He was a big Eagles fan, big
Speaker 4: Bowie fan, loved the Beatles Queen. I mean, he was
Speaker 4: a big Santana fan. War was big for him, earth
Speaker 4: Wind and Fire massive, I mean, and these are all
Speaker 4: this is that era, you know, we're talking about great
Speaker 4: everything from the sixties on.
Speaker 3: He was like heavy into heavy, heavy into Yeah.
Speaker 2: What about your mom what was she into?
Speaker 4: Big soul fan, you know, anything motown, anything coming from
Speaker 4: Detroit and anything that we would heart, you know, at
Speaker 4: a function. You know that they would that they used
Speaker 4: to dance to in high school because my parents were young,
Speaker 4: so they had me at twenty three. I believe they're
Speaker 4: the same age, twenty two, twenty three, and they met
Speaker 4: in high school. So all the things that they were
Speaker 4: they were enjoying in high school. Luther Vandros, you know
Speaker 4: what I'm saying, All of these things that were in
Speaker 4: the ether, Like I grew up in San Pedro an
Speaker 4: art punk haven. I mean, all just the Ramones have
Speaker 4: been through San Pedro. We've got we've got a lot
Speaker 4: of great punk culture in San Pedro that I grew
Speaker 4: up right around minute men, that's Pedro so and that's
Speaker 4: in the eighties when I was born.
Speaker 3: I was like really really.
Speaker 4: Young, Like I'm talking about one to five going into
Speaker 4: the nineties, like it had started to die down. But
Speaker 4: the scene and the venues that were being played at
Speaker 4: Firehouse we're talking about, these are like in within blocks
Speaker 4: of my of where I grew up, you know, Like
Speaker 4: I'm on Third and Center and we're talking about downtown
Speaker 4: San Pedro is like three blocks away, and this is
Speaker 4: like kind of like an epicenter of where a lot
Speaker 4: of that energy is like really being expressed.
Speaker 3: And I grew so I grew.
Speaker 4: Up around punks, I grew up around of course, I
Speaker 4: grew up around you know, cholos and gangsters, and so
Speaker 4: I got a lot of all of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you the kind of artist who has hundreds
Speaker 2: of songs just like done on hand if you need
Speaker 2: them or when you start a new project? Are you
Speaker 2: very much like, all right, we got twelve, we got fourteen,
Speaker 2: We're done, move on.
Speaker 3: I wasn't. Before I took eight years to finish the album.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 3: I was very much like, no, we want to create
Speaker 3: in the moment.
Speaker 4: This is what this is right here. I wouldn't say
Speaker 4: I have hundreds of songs, but I definitely have more.
Speaker 4: I have more songs that need to be cut and
Speaker 4: never see the light of day or ever need to
Speaker 4: be heard right anyone then I usually would, But I
Speaker 4: also say there's a lot of songs that I still
Speaker 4: want to use for you know, future albums or the
Speaker 4: next album. Would I would prefer to remake for the
Speaker 4: music to feel very current, And yeah, you know for me.
Speaker 2: And you always have struck me as a person who
Speaker 2: is creative first, meaning the most important thing for you
Speaker 2: is just to make things and how people categorize or
Speaker 2: maybe even interpret those things that come.
Speaker 3: Second.
Speaker 2: Does that sound accurate?
Speaker 4: Super accurate? I think breaking free of the expectation is
Speaker 4: a big part of what I've needed to I needed
Speaker 4: to kind of step away and re calibrate on because
Speaker 4: in the beginning, I think we start with all the
Speaker 4: excitement and possibility, and we mimic with no judgment. We
Speaker 4: imitate with a sense of play and excitement of what
Speaker 4: is possible to program our bodies to do, you know,
Speaker 4: And there's so much honesty and that jumping off place
Speaker 4: and allowing oneself to just explore and to be excited
Speaker 4: by what comes out, even if it's shit, you know
Speaker 4: what I mean, Because I've got more terrible things in
Speaker 4: the vault. That's just you know, it's even funny to
Speaker 4: go listen and go it's pretty funny, Like I see
Speaker 4: what I was trying to do there, and to hear
Speaker 4: the play in it, the exploration, the things that are
Speaker 4: wrong but that are right, the things that hit a
Speaker 4: chord within you know when you listen to it, and
Speaker 4: the things that are just trash, and you know to
Speaker 4: give it, to give it that kind of energy is
Speaker 4: making that right change in the right place, or everybody
Speaker 4: on the same page, catching up, feeling to move into
Speaker 4: another phrase or whatever that thing is. When you when
Speaker 4: you're able to do that and it garner attention, well
Speaker 4: then it's easy to lose sight of the whole, the thing,
Speaker 4: the glue, the purpose in it in the first place.
Speaker 4: And I think I wasn't doing enough calibrating along the way.
Speaker 3: You know, do you.
Speaker 2: Have any musical mentors or people in the business or
Speaker 2: in your position or in a similar position that you
Speaker 2: can talk to honestly and be like, look, I'm feeling
Speaker 2: lost right now, I need help. Is there anybody who
Speaker 2: you can go to as a guide.
Speaker 4: Throughout my career, I've mentioned Mark Mark Pitts as kind
Speaker 4: of one of those ones who believed early and had
Speaker 4: he had the leverage and the reputation to convince a
Speaker 4: lot of people who otherwise would have wrote me off,
Speaker 4: cut their losses and moved on, so to speak, when
Speaker 4: it wasn't all profitable, you know, when it was looking
Speaker 4: like there wasn't a way forward. That was someone that
Speaker 4: I could always call on and trust to give. Not
Speaker 4: business insight alone, I think more human insight, and so
Speaker 4: he was someone that I could always call on, but
Speaker 4: through life, through my life, I think it'll always be
Speaker 4: my family. I got lucky and I have an incredible,
Speaker 4: incredible mother and father who have been, you know, truly
Speaker 4: truly upfront about what they do and do not know,
Speaker 4: even when I was, you know, too young enough to
Speaker 4: care about it. They've always been there to kind of Mike,
Speaker 4: you know, that's not right, Mike, you know, and give
Speaker 4: me the thing that I need to hear that I
Speaker 4: can trust is coming from a really pure place, you know.
Speaker 4: So I got lucky, and that's in fact. You know,
Speaker 4: my brother is one of my best friends, nonchalant, He's
Speaker 4: on this album. And I've gotten lucky to have just
Speaker 4: great people along the way, including my you know, my team.
Speaker 4: Drew has been with me for years. Anyone who knows
Speaker 4: me and has been we've done business.
Speaker 3: With knows Drew. That's my guy. He's my right hand.
Speaker 4: He's been with me since I since my first real
Speaker 4: check performing outside of Los Angeles. You know, he literally
Speaker 4: was at my very first show way up in Connecticut.
Speaker 2: Oh, in Connecticut.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in Connecticut, a thousand dollars show to
Speaker 4: perform all I want is you at a club, you know,
Speaker 4: and it's like this, this is like someone who's been
Speaker 4: with me for you know, a decade plus more than
Speaker 4: you know, so we're talking about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I've been lucky to have people that I can trust,
Speaker 4: you know, but I've also yeah that's awesome. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I've gotten lucky in that way. So those are the
Speaker 4: people that I would I could lean on to kind
Speaker 4: of be like, hey man, you swerve it, you swerve
Speaker 4: it hard right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I wanted to ask you before we go,
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about the visuals for Chaos
Speaker 2: for the title track, So cool, m h, what are
Speaker 2: you wearing? And where did all that come from?
Speaker 4: Banger as I As I kind of mentioned, like the
Speaker 4: themes of the album or the theme of the album
Speaker 4: is really centered around, you know, the purpose of chaos
Speaker 4: in my life and what I'm learning because of it
Speaker 4: and what I need to make peace with and in
Speaker 4: just kind of doing reading and some research on where
Speaker 4: I come from.
Speaker 3: My family is.
Speaker 4: From a region in Mexico that a tribe is from,
Speaker 4: so by blood, I have lineage to a tribe called
Speaker 4: the Booty patcha. I think it's Booty Patch. I might
Speaker 4: be killing the name Booty Pecha. But the only tribe
Speaker 4: in the region to not be conquered by the Aztec.
Speaker 4: They're like valley, They're like warriors, you know, and they
Speaker 4: were never conquered. So like kind of doing deep dives
Speaker 4: into like my heritage where my family is from, and
Speaker 4: it kind of led me to find a celebration in
Speaker 4: Mexico called Son of the Diablos, which is the dance
Speaker 4: of the of the devils. And contrary to what the set,
Speaker 4: what the title suggests, it's actually a celebration, a commemoration
Speaker 4: of slaves in Mexico, African slaves and Mexican slaves freeing
Speaker 4: themselves from their masters.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And the visuals are an homage to this idea that
Speaker 4: I'm making peace with. I'm addressing and freeing myself in
Speaker 4: some ways from my own demons.
Speaker 2: How did it feel to put the clothes on? I'm
Speaker 2: powerful in itself just wearing the clothes.
Speaker 4: It's hot as fuck because it's so many layers. That
Speaker 4: shit is just hot. I'm talking about like a scarf
Speaker 4: on the head and then another scarfs around your neck
Speaker 4: and you gotta chivas and yes you got boots, huh, like.
Speaker 3: The chaps, right, yeah, yeah, that's a that's the chaps
Speaker 3: that they wear.
Speaker 2: Chaps, but like fur.
Speaker 4: Yeah it's goat here. Yeah yeah it looks sick, but
Speaker 4: it does feel. It does give you a whole other feeling.
Speaker 4: And I and I want to I wanted to make
Speaker 4: sure that we were paying homage, but not like ripping it,
Speaker 4: you know, and it just being like a full yank.
Speaker 4: So the key elements that I feel really resonated with me.
Speaker 3: And where the chivaras and.
Speaker 4: The garb appear, I think, because what that what that
Speaker 4: actually is for, is like to protect the face from
Speaker 4: the mask. And the artisans that make these masks, there's
Speaker 4: only a handful that are like known to be like them.
Speaker 4: It's like like a sort like a swordsmith. If you're
Speaker 4: a samurai, you want this kind of lathe. So in
Speaker 4: the same way, the makers of the garbs, they're artisans
Speaker 4: that are like these are the guys you go to.
Speaker 4: And the masks are pretty heavy. These shits are like
Speaker 4: wooden masks, and then they've got you know, they're all
Speaker 4: very different and they're ornate and in different ways.
Speaker 3: But them.
Speaker 4: Shits is heavy and when you put it on, if
Speaker 4: you don't have anything to protect your head, it's gonna
Speaker 4: like it's gonna hurt you.
Speaker 3: The sheer weight.
Speaker 4: And then the movement with it on also, it moves
Speaker 4: around and shit. So the garb is kind of like
Speaker 4: in anti anticipation of putting on the mask.
Speaker 2: But that's another way to process pain, you know, exager
Speaker 2: pain in a different way.
Speaker 4: Which is the reason why you won't really see me,
Speaker 4: because I think the purpose of this album and the
Speaker 4: proposition is that I'm making peace with my demon, so
Speaker 4: I don't have to wear a mask, you know, I'm
Speaker 4: freeing myself of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all I love all considered.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thank you so much Michael for talking about
Speaker 2: this album and for making the album. Man, thank you,
Speaker 2: best of luck. I can't wait to see what comes next.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Thanksley, appreciate your time. Great to hang and hopefully
Speaker 4: you see you again soon.
Speaker 1: In an episode description, you'll find a link to a
Speaker 1: playlist of our favorite Miguel tracks. Be sure to check
Speaker 1: out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see
Speaker 1: all of our video and others, and be sure to
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Speaker 1: can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
Speaker 1: is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing and
Speaker 1: help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is
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