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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode

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Speaker 1: of the show. This one originally aired on October nineteen

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Speaker 1: and it was about hell Raiser. Yeah, this one is

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun. It's seasonally appropriate and as I remember, Uh,

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Speaker 1: they always excellent. Any Reese uh engages in a little

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Speaker 1: cold opening for us here excellent. Couldn't ask for more?

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Speaker 1: What city is this? One of the four inquired. Frank

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Speaker 1: had difficulty guessing the speaker's gender with any certainty. Its clothes,

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Speaker 1: some of which were sown to and through its skin,

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Speaker 1: hit its private parts, and there was nothing in the

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Speaker 1: dregs of its voice or in its willfully disfigured features

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Speaker 1: that offered the least clue when it spoke. The hooks

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Speaker 1: that transfixed the flaps of its eyes and were wed

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Speaker 1: by an intricate system of chains passed through leshi and

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Speaker 1: bone alike two similar hooks through the lower lip. We're

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Speaker 1: teased by the motion exposing the glistening meat underneath. I

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Speaker 1: asked you a question, do you understand the figure beside

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Speaker 1: the first speaker demanded. Its voice, unlike that of its companion,

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Speaker 1: was light and breathy, the voice of an excited girl.

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Speaker 1: Every inch of its head had been tattooed with an

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Speaker 1: intricate grid, and at every intersection of horizontal and vertical

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Speaker 1: axes a jeweled pin driven through to the bone. Its

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Speaker 1: tongue was similarly decorated. Do you even know who we are?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How to Work. Hey, Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. I guess you've been reading

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Speaker 1: Clive Barker, right, that's right? Yes, Our cold Open ishi

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Speaker 1: Is was a passage from nineteen eighties six novella The

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Speaker 1: hell Bound Heart by Clive Barker, which he himself adapted

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Speaker 1: and directed in nine seven into the horror film We

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Speaker 1: All Know as Hell Raizor Wait a minute, there was

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Speaker 1: just one year gap in between writing the novella and

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Speaker 1: making the movie. Yeah, yeah, Clive Barker was on a

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Speaker 1: roll in the in the late eighties, like he was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's still on a roll. He's one of

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Speaker 1: these uh these creators. It really has has not visibly

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Speaker 1: slown down. Um, says Stephen King. Quote from that year,

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Speaker 1: he said, I've seen the future of horror and it

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Speaker 1: is Clive Barker. Yeah, yeah, quote quote the King. I

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Speaker 1: think that that that quote was actually in the trailer

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Speaker 1: for for hell Raiser the film, as was I am Pain. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I think he doesn't. He doesn't declare that he is

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Speaker 1: Pain until three year possibly four. Um, I'm imagining a

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Speaker 1: future crossover sequel. It's like Jetson's Meet the flint Stones,

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Speaker 1: but it's Judge dread meets Pinhead and they just alternate

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Speaker 1: back and forth with I am the Law and I

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Speaker 1: am pay that. That actually sounds like a great match up.

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Speaker 1: I actually I would be all surprised if it hasn't

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Speaker 1: been done or at least pitch, because Judge Dredd is

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Speaker 1: thrown down with like Alien before, and I think he's

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Speaker 1: met Batman. Pinhead's been in a number of comic books.

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Speaker 1: You could see the more nuanced side coming out of

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Speaker 1: each because you discovered that in small ways, Judge Dredd

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Speaker 1: is also Pain and Pinhead is also the Law. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: so I want to you know, wax nostalgic for a

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Speaker 1: moment here. I didn't get into hell Razor movies until

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Speaker 1: probably because I was too young for them really prior

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Speaker 1: to that. Wait, how old was that though? Oh, don't

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Speaker 1: make me do math, Joe, But I was. I was

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Speaker 1: like in junior higher or so. Uh in ninety five,

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Speaker 1: and by that point, the first three films were already

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Speaker 1: out and Doug Bradley's Pinhead was already cemented as a

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Speaker 1: as a horror icon. Yeah. I mean he's up there

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Speaker 1: with like Freddie and Jason at that point. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: in the nine Simpsons tree House of Horror episodes of

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Speaker 1: the Shinning episode, Oh, the Shinning is so good. In

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Speaker 1: Head is one of the horror icons that drags Homer

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Speaker 1: out of the refrigerator. Oh yeah, it's like it's like Jason, Freddie, Pinheads,

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Speaker 1: and just some werewolf or something. I think. So. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like a quick scene. But like already by that point,

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Speaker 1: I think it had been decided that this, uh, this, this,

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Speaker 1: this creature, this entity had a role in the Halloween

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Speaker 1: pantheon of Hollywood. So you read the book before you

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Speaker 1: saw the movie. Um, I think I read the book

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Speaker 1: after I saw the movie. I remember reading it on

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Speaker 1: a school trip. Yeah, and it's a it's it's short,

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Speaker 1: it's a novella, but yeah, it was really it was

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Speaker 1: really impressive at the time. As our cold open illustrates,

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Speaker 1: it has a slightly different feel. It's the film hell

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Speaker 1: Raiser is essentially the hell Bound Heart. It is, you know,

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Speaker 1: Barker's own adaptation of it. But at the same time

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Speaker 1: there are differences, and one of the key differences is, uh,

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Speaker 1: this character of Pinhead, the hell Priest, whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to hall it is just called lead Cinobyte and the

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Speaker 1: first hell Raiser that the role played by Doug Bradley

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Speaker 1: in the novella it is, it has a slightly different

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Speaker 1: flare to it. Yeah. I was reading some things about

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Speaker 1: the production and it seems to me that the reason

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Speaker 1: Doug Bradley's Pinhead became such an icon in the movie

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Speaker 1: had to do with the practical necessities of filmmaking. Again,

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Speaker 1: it was something about like character, like the other Cinobytes

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Speaker 1: that appear in the film would have been given more dialogue,

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Speaker 1: but their makeup effects didn't allow it, right, because you

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Speaker 1: have like the Chatter and the butter being Cinobytes and

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Speaker 1: Butterball Butterball butter similar but but yeah, that makes sense

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Speaker 1: that the makeup prevented them from speaking, and Doug Bradley

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Speaker 1: could speak, though he couldn't walk around very well. Apparently

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Speaker 1: he had these black contact lenses in that made it

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Speaker 1: hard for him to see, and he was afraid of

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Speaker 1: tripping over the skirts of his of Cinobyte robe, so

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Speaker 1: he didn't move very easily. But he could talk, and

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Speaker 1: so he could say things like save your tears, it's

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Speaker 1: a waste of good suffering. Yeah, he has a very

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Speaker 1: commanding voice. Whereas in the original Develoo, the character that

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Speaker 1: would become Pinhead is described as this excited girl and

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Speaker 1: the nd the Cinobytes themselves come off. They still come

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Speaker 1: off is grotesque in their own way, but they're more

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Speaker 1: and they're more androgynous for starters. And then there is

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Speaker 1: this there's more, this sense that they are not as

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Speaker 1: demonic as they are just other worldly, like they have

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Speaker 1: lived in another realm of the senses for so long, uh,

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Speaker 1: that they just don't have anything in common with human

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Speaker 1: sense perception anymore. Right, They're there are explorers that go

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Speaker 1: beyond the boundaries of pleasure and pain. And that's a

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Speaker 1: lot of what we're gonna be talking about today when

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Speaker 1: we get to the science portion of today's episode. But

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Speaker 1: I know you're not done talking about hell Raiser, right,

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Speaker 1: Oh no, And I do want to just remind everybody

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Speaker 1: as far as The hell Bound Heart goes you can.

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Speaker 1: You can find it for yourself on Amazon or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your book in all formats, including a dollar

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Speaker 1: ninety nine e book and both an audio book production

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Speaker 1: and a full blown like audio play production, so you

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Speaker 1: have no excuse not to go and grab a copy

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Speaker 1: of it if you want to check it out. I

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Speaker 1: also highly recommend the books of Blood. Uh. Those are

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Speaker 1: some There's some really great short stories in those collections. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've always been a Clive Barker fan. I

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Speaker 1: haven't read everything he's written, but it's just an unmatched creativity.

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Speaker 1: They're both on the written written page, but behind the

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Speaker 1: camera and visual art as well. Just before we came

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Speaker 1: in here, I was having a conversation with our colleague

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Speaker 1: Ben Bolan of stuff they don't want you to know

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Speaker 1: and ridiculous history, and he was asking what my favorite

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Speaker 1: Clive Barker was, and I had to admit I have

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Speaker 1: not read any For some reason, I just never gotten

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Speaker 1: into Barker. He was very surprised because he knows I

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Speaker 1: like horror fiction. But uh, I don't know. For some reason,

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Speaker 1: I just never went there, maybe because when I don't know,

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Speaker 1: when I first saw the movie Hell Raiser, I think

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Speaker 1: this was like my freshman year of college. I found

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Speaker 1: it actually very depressing. Yeah, well, I found it. It

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Speaker 1: was full of interesting imagery. I thought it was actually

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Speaker 1: kind of original and imaginative. But something about the world

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Speaker 1: it pictured it seemed very bleak to me. It was

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Speaker 1: like a world where nothing is good and everything goes

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Speaker 1: to hell and there's nothing to care about. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a bleak, brooding film. And and I can see why

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Speaker 1: I was especially into it as like a brooding junior

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Speaker 1: high student and as a you know, a teen spoke

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Speaker 1: to you then yeah, I mean then also it felt,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a cool d rebel. I think too,

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Speaker 1: because like Stephen King, I was stupid into Stephen King

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Speaker 1: at the time, and Stephen King has certainly be you know, graphic,

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Speaker 1: but but Barker always felt weirder, more counterculture in a

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Speaker 1: way that really resonated with me. And you know, there's

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Speaker 1: probably no better way to push back against small town

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptist upbringing than to turn to and you know,

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Speaker 1: the explosive, creative world of an openly gay British horror writer. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I will say it is uh despite its flaws.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I will talk about how I just rewatched

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Speaker 1: the movie uh and it did not match up with

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Speaker 1: my memories at all. I found it. I have to

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Speaker 1: admit I found it rather funny upon rewatching it, especially

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Speaker 1: a lot of the line delivery by the cinabytes and

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Speaker 1: it's over the top ponderousness that like, uh, there were

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Speaker 1: a whole there was a lot of unintentional laughter. But

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Speaker 1: I will say it is still a pretty imaginative concept.

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Speaker 1: It was like very original for its time. Let's now

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Speaker 1: that we're speaking on Pinhead's voice in the movie, let's

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Speaker 1: have a quick uh splash from the trailer will your

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Speaker 1: soul part? That's just a sample though, because most of

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Speaker 1: the original theatrical trailer is screaming okay, uh yeah. So

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Speaker 1: I guess should we briefly discussed the plot of the movie. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And for anybody who hasn't listened to a movie at

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Speaker 1: so we've done before we will get to uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot more science and interpretation of of this particular

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Speaker 1: you know, cinematic installment. But but first we do need

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Speaker 1: to remind everybody about what's up in Hell Racer, because

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Speaker 1: it's easy forget, especially if you've seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: the sequels. Uh and and if you've seen some of

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Speaker 1: the later sequels then then truly God help you. But

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Speaker 1: the original plot line goes like this, do you have

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Speaker 1: a creepy uncle? Well, did your creepy uncle ever, say,

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Speaker 1: have an affair with your mom? And then use an

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Speaker 1: antique puzzle box to open a dimensional rift in your

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Speaker 1: grandma's house, summoning a weird sect of transdimensional Cincinnats in

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Speaker 1: your uncle's quest for new extremes of pleasure. Well, that

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Speaker 1: uncle is Frank Cotton, and yes, he's dragged away to

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Speaker 1: the realm of the Cinabytes so the order of the Gash,

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Speaker 1: and after a while manages to escape in a much

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Speaker 1: reduced state um and works out a plot to reclaim

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Speaker 1: his body. And that's essentially the plot line of Hell Racers. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you've got your core elements of this miss serious

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Speaker 1: puzzle box that is just a normal kind of cube

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Speaker 1: with some paintings on it. But if you manipulate it

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Speaker 1: in the right way, press here and turn there and

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. It starts opening up, and then

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Speaker 1: once it opens up, a familiar series of events unfolds,

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Speaker 1: where lights shine in through you know, cracks in the

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Speaker 1: walls and stuff chains with hooks at the ends of

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Speaker 1: them shoot out of the walls and grab you. And

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Speaker 1: then the Centabyites show up, and they're these people usually

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Speaker 1: with like shaved heads or just generally weird heads. Usually

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Speaker 1: something has happened to their head. They're wearing black leather

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Speaker 1: robes as if they're a combination of the there's sort

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Speaker 1: of like S and M priests. And they show up

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Speaker 1: and they're like, okay, it's time to take you away

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Speaker 1: to a dimension beyond sensation. It's time to experience pain

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Speaker 1: and pleasure indivisible. Right. Yeah, and they're you know, they're

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Speaker 1: they're very much there's a boundary confusion with them, right,

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Speaker 1: because they're both ghastly and beautiful in their own way.

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Speaker 1: They're erotic and grotesque at the same time. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: the suggestion question, I think it's explored much more in

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Speaker 1: the book, is that these creatures are there part of

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Speaker 1: some weird, esoteric, other dimensional religious order that worships the

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Speaker 1: exploration of the extremes of sensation right then, and so

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Speaker 1: that they've gotten to the point where where they can

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Speaker 1: no longer tell the difference between pleasure and pain. It's

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Speaker 1: just sort of like experiences to the max all the time,

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Speaker 1: of whatever valence possible. Yeah, it's it's more it's not

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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna pull your skin off blooh. It's more like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm sorry, I'm rude, I'm being rude. I should

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Speaker 1: pull your skin off, I should be a good host,

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Speaker 1: and this is the natural thing to do. Yeah, though

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Speaker 1: I feel like that, I think that's more there in

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Speaker 1: the book, which again I haven't read, but in the

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Speaker 1: movie it does come to feel more like they're there

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Speaker 1: to punish you sometimes. I don't know if this conceit

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Speaker 1: about them just being sort of experiment ers is really

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Speaker 1: consistent in the film now. I mean, even in the

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Speaker 1: first film, which is which is certainly the truest to

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Speaker 1: the original source material, even in that you can tell

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Speaker 1: that that Barker is leaning more into the idea of

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Speaker 1: them as movie monsters, though it's still it's still Clive

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Speaker 1: Barker's movie monsters, and Clive Barker is one of those

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Speaker 1: creators who has always loved his monsters most of all.

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Speaker 1: You know. But but still even in the film, you know,

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Speaker 1: the cinemabytes are not the most important aspect of the plot.

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Speaker 1: They're not the central antagonist. Even our heroine, uh, Kirstie

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Speaker 1: Cotton and her father Larry Cotton aren't as central to

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Speaker 1: the plot as Frank, the the individual who just described

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Speaker 1: the uncle and Chris, Kirstie's mom Julia. It's ultimately about

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Speaker 1: their dark love affair that ultimately transcends the boundaries of

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Speaker 1: life and death. Uh. You know, they're the characters at

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Speaker 1: the heart of all this, and and they're the ones

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Speaker 1: whose desires we most understand and even on some level

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Speaker 1: sympathize with, even though they are you know, dark, desperate

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Speaker 1: and depressing characters. Yeah, I think the deal is Frank

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Speaker 1: is just this guy who's seen it all. He's had

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Speaker 1: every hedonistic pleasure of the flesh possible. He's he you know,

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Speaker 1: he's beyond good and evil. He has no morality left.

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Speaker 1: He's just he's just like trying to to seek the

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Speaker 1: next highest possible sensation. Uh. And he's usually got a

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Speaker 1: knife out because he's just that kind of guy. Right.

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Speaker 1: And then Julia, on the other hand, played by the

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Speaker 1: the excellent Claire Higgins. In this she's you know, by

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Speaker 1: and large, the best performance in the film. There is

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Speaker 1: one scene where I don't know if they did this

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Speaker 1: on purpose, but the way they did her makeup and

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Speaker 1: her hair, she looks exactly like David Bowie and his

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Speaker 1: Aladdin sane persona. Oh huh, I I didn't notice that,

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Speaker 1: have to to look back at it. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's wonderful in it. And in a same way her character.

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Speaker 1: Her character is also like trapped in a life of

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Speaker 1: tedium and boredom. Like her husband is this boring guy

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Speaker 1: who watched his boxing on television and and she just

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Speaker 1: seems to be, you know, putting up with him. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And and so thus comes her attraction to Frank. And

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Speaker 1: even when Frank comes back from the dead uh in

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Speaker 1: this you know, grotesque body, uh, you know, she still

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Speaker 1: ends up helping him. Oh and of course helping him

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Speaker 1: involves like killing a bunch of people again so he

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Speaker 1: can it's not exactly clear he can basically drink their

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Speaker 1: blood and thus reconstitute his original body. Yeah, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a little vague, and I like that it's vague,

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Speaker 1: you know, weren't really sure exactly what the necromancy is

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Speaker 1: of all this, but that that is the thing. Frank

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Speaker 1: is essentially a necromancer. Uh and and has these these powers. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, looking back at at the film, it's you

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Speaker 1: really can't overstate the importance of Frank and Juliet. They

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Speaker 1: are the core of the film. They are its main characters,

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Speaker 1: and they are its main monsters. Yeah. The cinembytes show

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Speaker 1: up mostly in the third act as a kind of

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Speaker 1: almost as a kind of d S X machina. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is fitting because they are literally coming out of

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Speaker 1: the machine, right d S xbox in. Uh. Let's a

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Speaker 1: few of are things I want to say about the

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Speaker 1: film just rewatching it. Um, the music is fine, It's

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Speaker 1: a bit dramatic, but I've long wanted to see a

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Speaker 1: cut of it with the original score by Post and

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Speaker 1: tut Industrial Act Coil. This was the late Peter Christofferson

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Speaker 1: of who was also in Throbbing Gristle, and the late

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Speaker 1: John Balance was also in Psychic TV, so that they

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Speaker 1: had conducted the original put together the original score for

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Speaker 1: the film and the replacement score. This more traditional and

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Speaker 1: cinematic was supposedly a condition of additional funding that Barker

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Speaker 1: received in order to finish the special effects in the film.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I would my musical taste lean far more

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Speaker 1: coil than they do traditional cinematic score. So, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: when what I've heard of it, it sounds really interesting.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's that's one thought I have on it. Coil.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with them, they were. They were

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Speaker 1: a big influence on the likes of say Trent Resner

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Speaker 1: Um and uh and of course Clive Barker was also

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Speaker 1: an influence on Trent Resider as well. I'd say Nine

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Speaker 1: Inch Nails is pretty thoroughly cinabyte music. Yeah, especially the

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Speaker 1: early stuff. Let's see what else about this film, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the costumes and the practical effects I think hold up

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Speaker 1: very well. They do. And I think this is this

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Speaker 1: is definitely a film where you look at it and

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Speaker 1: you I'm impressed by just how ambitious it really was,

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Speaker 1: perhaps overly ambitious, especially given the small budget and the

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Speaker 1: fact that Barker was, you know, adapting his own work

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Speaker 1: here directing it as well, and this was his He'd

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Speaker 1: done some screenwriting, but he had not directed anything previously.

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Speaker 1: And it's really, you know, it's they go for not

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Speaker 1: only they have the cinabytes in there and all these effects,

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Speaker 1: but also like a regeneration scene and additional demon monsters

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Speaker 1: that you know, if you were being like maybe a

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Speaker 1: little more careful with your budget, you might say, well,

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Speaker 1: do we need this monster? We already have this monster.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we can actually cut two whole monsters in two

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Speaker 1: big practical effects from the film and use those funds elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: But uh, still, you know it, it mostly comes together.

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Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure the purpose served by the monster

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Speaker 1: that's referred to as the engineer, which doesn't look anything

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Speaker 1: like an engineer. Instead, it's like a big sort of

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Speaker 1: larva that crawls down the hallway with a scary mouth

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Speaker 1: on the bottom part, chasing after people. Yeah, it's that's

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Speaker 1: something that the engineers mentioned in the novella. But it's

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Speaker 1: more it's like a being of light or something. It's

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Speaker 1: it's not a monster. So that like that I feel

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Speaker 1: like comes off a little confusing in the picture, like

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Speaker 1: what is this and how's it connected with everything? Now?

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Speaker 1: I don't want to rag on the film too much,

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Speaker 1: but I will say that one of the things that

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Speaker 1: was funniest about it to me, is that Pinhead even

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Speaker 1: in the first movie. I mean, I think it gets

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Speaker 1: even more like this as the movies go on. Pinhead

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Speaker 1: gets increasingly fretified, Like he becomes like a wise cracking

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Speaker 1: you know, making jokes at the camera, kind of Freddy

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Speaker 1: Krueger character. But even in the first movie, almost everything

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Speaker 1: he says is this like threatening, lee pretentious kind of

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Speaker 1: line that could be a quote on the VHS bo

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Speaker 1: ex coover. It's all stuff like will tear your soul apart?

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Speaker 1: Or the box you opened it, we came? Or of course, uh,

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Speaker 1: the the inimitable I am pain Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Freddie,

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Speaker 1: he has a lot of catch phrases and sort of

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Speaker 1: quote ready samples. Uh. And I've heard him in a

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Speaker 1: number of different DJ mixes as well, throwing a little

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Speaker 1: pinhead right. Uh. He also reminds me a bit of

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Speaker 1: nineties pro wrestlers in that regard. You know, he's like

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Speaker 1: the rock you know, he has the Rocks like more

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Speaker 1: post nineties, but still, you know, he has his his

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Speaker 1: catch phrases that he lashes out. You can imagine macho

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Speaker 1: man Randy Savage saying the box you opened it we came.

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Speaker 1: I actually just learned that Doug Bradley serves as the

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Speaker 1: authority figure in the indie British occult themed wrestling promotion

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Speaker 1: Blackcraft Wrestling. I don't know what that means. Well, look

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Speaker 1: it up, beild it exists. Um, it's like clearly he's

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Speaker 1: doing kind of like a he's not in a wrestling ring.

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Speaker 1: He's like showing up like they're doing a green screen

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Speaker 1: thing and he's you know, making matches and whatnot. But

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Speaker 1: it's it's Dug Bradley being Doug Bradley. But like he

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Speaker 1: officiates a match by saying you're suffering will be legendary

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Speaker 1: even in hell. Now, I will say that. In the

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Speaker 1: I think it's by the fourth one, he does have

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Speaker 1: a line about pain that that is I think it's

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Speaker 1: actually pretty good where he says, uh, quote, what you

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Speaker 1: think of as pain is only a shadow. Pain has

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Speaker 1: a face. Allow me to show it to you, Allow

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Speaker 1: me to show it to you, and uh and like

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Speaker 1: that that line, I think it is pretty good, Like

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Speaker 1: he gets at some of the the intangible aspects of pain,

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Speaker 1: the how difficult it is to understand another individual's pain

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Speaker 1: or relate your own. Of course, this is and this

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Speaker 1: is from how rays your inferno. Then he goes on

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Speaker 1: to say, uh, uh, gentleman, I am pain, and he

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Speaker 1: kind of he kind of ruins the moment. You know

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Speaker 1: it can go far. He can't help but go for

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Speaker 1: the catchphrase, ladies and gentlemen, I am pain. So in summary, uh,

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Speaker 1: this is what I'll say about How Raiser. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's a film. I have a lot of staut it

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Speaker 1: for and having rewatched it in the past week, I'd

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Speaker 1: say that that more things will work than don't work.

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Speaker 1: And it's still like it's it's astounding that that that

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Speaker 1: everyone is able to put this film together and then ultimately,

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Speaker 1: like clearly it resonated, even though like my personal taste,

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Speaker 1: I like the cinebyites of the novella more like Pinhead worked,

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Speaker 1: like Pinhead became a staple, like Pinhead is part of

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Speaker 1: American popular culture now. A couple of years ago I

396
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Speaker 1: went through the process. I don't know why I decided

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Speaker 1: I needed to do this, but I watched all of

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Speaker 1: the Hell Raiser sequels. I don't think that's a journey

399
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Speaker 1: people need to go on. There. There are fleeting pleasures

400
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Speaker 1: throughout them, like Part three has some pretty funny stuff.

401
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Speaker 1: Part four has some funny moments. Part three is kind

402
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Speaker 1: of like peak Freddie. Uh hell Raised, like they realized like, oh,

403
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Speaker 1: this is what we've created. We've created this, this this

404
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Speaker 1: this horror creature that you know the masses are in to.

405
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 1: Let's give him the film that this character deserves. Of course,

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Speaker 1: Part four is Pinhead Goes to Space, which is I

407
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Speaker 1: don't know, it's hard to sniff it that. Yeah, that

408
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: that film is notoriously a mess, but then it also

409
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Speaker 1: just has so many crazy things in it it's hard

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Speaker 1: to completely dismiss it. I kept wanting to see I

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Speaker 1: think I may have said this on the show before,

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Speaker 1: but Rachel and I have frequently talked about how there

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Speaker 1: needs to be a crossover again, franchise crossover, but not

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Speaker 1: with Judge Shred. This should be hell Raiser, and then

415
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: the air bud sequels they crossover. So you've got like

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Speaker 1: Golden Retriever puppies and they're playing with the box and

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Speaker 1: it's called hell Buddies, and so the cinembytes come out

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Speaker 1: and they're ready to do all their hooks and stuff,

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Speaker 1: but then they're conquered by the cuteness of the puppies.

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Speaker 1: So it's like I am all right. Well, on that note,

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Speaker 1: let's take our first break, and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about puzzle boxes. Alright, we're back,

423
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: all right. So we know that Hell Raiser starts with

424
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: a mysterious puzzle box. It's this box that, uh, it

425
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: can be opened, but how you open it is apparently

426
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: not obvious, and people just fiddle around with it until

427
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: they figure out the secret, and then they end up

428
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: unleashing the hooks, the chains, the cineabytes and so forth. Yeah,

429
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: the first film and all subsequent films, they are generally

430
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: gonna be some scenes with somebody fiddling with the box.

431
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem to it seems to adhere to

432
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: unreal physics, which is fitting. It is a magical box

433
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: that opens a magical doorway through which magical beings then

434
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 1: enter um. So you know, I don't take any issue

435
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: with that at all. But of course, in the idea

436
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: itself is just irresistible. We love myths about boxes that

437
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: should not be opened, or the idea of a box

438
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 1: that resists opening is also tremendous as well. An enclosure

439
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: born of human ingenuity, it must be solved via human

440
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: ingenuity as well. Oh yeah, I mean, I think it's

441
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: a wonderful conceit are opening a story like this, that

442
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: there is this thing, it requires effort. It suggests that

443
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: there's kind of a that there's a beyond normal amount

444
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 1: of interest. Right. People seek out this box when they're

445
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: they're board with all of the sensations of Earth and

446
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: they want to go beyond. They want to see one

447
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 1: of other level they can reach. They have to find

448
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: this secret artifact. Yeah, and you know, ultimately, I think

449
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: we all have puzzle boxes like that in our lives

450
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: that we're trying to unravel. Right. But one of the

451
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: interesting things here is that, of course Clive Barker is

452
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: not just creating this out of nothing. He's he's drawing

453
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: on inspirations. One of the inspirations is clearly and you know,

454
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: especially I think they flesh this out a little bit

455
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: uh in in the fourth film, uh playing on the

456
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: tradition of philosophical toys uh, the that captivated to audiences

457
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century. And we've talked about some of

458
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: these on the show before, like the pooping duck, various automatons,

459
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: wind up clockwork devices. They don't really do anything. I mean,

460
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: they they don't you know, fulfill a purpose. They do things,

461
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: but those things that they do are merely to amuse us,

462
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: sort of make us think about, you know, the bio

463
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: mechanical nature of the world, or as a clockmaker, that

464
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: sort of thing, a machine that poses a question. Yeah,

465
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: and they're also testaments, of course, to the creator's talents.

466
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: How could someone so gifted with machinery make a musical

467
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: box such as this? But then there's a there's another

468
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: legacy of boxes that he's drawing out, and that is

469
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: the puzzle box, particularly the puzzle boxes of the Victorian period.

470
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: And I have to admit I really wasn't familiar with

471
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: with these at all, Like even you know, having seen

472
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: the hell Raiser movies, I never looked into anything anything

473
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: beyond the you know, the wind up clockwork stuff. But

474
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: there's a tradition of woodworking, uh trick boxes, puzzle boxes,

475
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: and they're pretty pretty phenomenal. So one example I came

476
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: across from said to be from the year nineteen hundred,

477
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: is a wooden book money box. So it looks like

478
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: a book that you would have on a shelf, like

479
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: a hard bound book, but it's made out of wood.

480
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: If you pick it up, take it off the shelf.

481
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: You see that there's a coin slot in top in

482
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: the top of it, so it's not being too secretive,

483
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: like I put money into this, but then how do

484
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: you get the money out? Well, to do that you

485
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: have to know the trick, and these older trick boxes

486
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: there generally there's just one way to do it. So

487
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: and this one you slide part of the book spine aside,

488
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: and that allows you to slide another little panel and

489
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: that opens the box and you can get the money inside. Uh.

490
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: It's clever, you know, kind of the woodworking version of

491
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: the various clockwork marvels that we were discussing earlier. But

492
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: then it ends up coming to it into its own

493
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: in the twentieth century because it's during this period that

494
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: you have woodworkers both in Europe, particularly in England and Switzerland,

495
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: but also in Japan, they really begin pushing the boundaries

496
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: of what's possible with a wooden puzzle box. Uh. In

497
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: the Japanese puzzle box this seemed to be some of

498
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: the most impressive. They typically look like ornate wooden boxes

499
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: with no visible hinges or lids, and then they may

500
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: require as few as three or more than a hundred

501
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: moves to open, so like sliding, yeah, like sliding this

502
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: little panel, like first of all, finding the panels to

503
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: figure out like which what does a piece of wood

504
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: that moves here? And then sliding it to the side,

505
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: sliding something else to the side, doing all these little

506
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: tricks in order to open up the ultimate interior of

507
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: the box. Um. Yeah, And and this was according to

508
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: wood Smith's Shop, which is a video series from wood

509
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: smith Magazine. Episode twelve O four is on YouTube. These

510
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: guys Chris and Phil hosted and uh, you know they're

511
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: they're going for the hell raiser audience by the way, Yeah,

512
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: they're They're exactly what you might imagine when you think

513
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: of like sort of I'm guessing like Midwestern um perhaps,

514
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: um you know wood wood wood workers, h you know

515
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: that that they show off one of these boxes, and

516
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: the craftsmanship is amazing, Like woodworking, I feel is an

517
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: area that I often take for granted, Like I see

518
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: a finished piece of furniture, be it something from Ikea

519
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: or something, you know, in a more robust and I

520
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: don't really think about all the skill that went into

521
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: making it. And perhaps that's why things like wooden puzzle

522
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: boxes exist to show you just how much skill is

523
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: involved in turning uh, you know, raw wood into something

524
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: that serves the purpose. Well, there's something counterintuitive about it

525
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: because we don't usually think of woodworking as is being

526
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: concerned with moving parts. Most often woodworking is, you know,

527
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: design and crafting of static elements, maybe with very few

528
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: moving parts, or some things that maybe there's a hinge

529
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: or something on a cabinet. But these combined elements of

530
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: of course, the kind of beautiful static art and design

531
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: of woodworking with the kinds of interlocking mechanisms you'd more

532
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: often see in machinery and metal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So

533
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, I can, I can describe them a little bit,

534
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: but I really you should look up some videos of

535
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: people manipulating these boxes and then hopefully, you know, get

536
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: your hands on a wooden puzzle box of your own,

537
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: because there are still people making them. There's an individual

538
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: by the name of Kagan Sound that's with a K

539
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: K A G A N S O U N D

540
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 1: at Kagan sound dot com. You can look him up.

541
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: He's apparently one of the foremost wooden puzzle box makers

542
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: in the world, and he's he's something of a modern

543
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: day Lemon shand if you will wait, well, that's from

544
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: the fourth movie, right. We find out that the creator

545
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: of the box is somebody named La mar Schand. I

546
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: think it's also revealed in the novella. Okay, it's it's

547
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: the Lament Configuration or the La mar Schand Box. Yes. Yeah.

548
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: There are also people that are apparently making puzzle boxes

549
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: out of Lego blox, which makes sense. Now. Some of

550
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: you might say, well, hey, how about the Rubik's Cute. Uh,

551
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, Rubics four invention. I would say, like,

552
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: if you'd it just right, it opens up and there's

553
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: something inside. Well, that's the thing. It doesn't have an interior,

554
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: so it's not it's a puzzle cube, not a true

555
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: puzzle box. There is no inside to the Rubik's Cube.

556
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: It will not open up new realms of pleasure and sensation. No,

557
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 1: that's not true. If you solve it, you get all

558
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: the faces, solid colors. Hooks shoot out of the walls.

559
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: That's how you get the hooks. Um. Yeah. I should

560
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: also point out that it's not always completely clear in

561
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: the Hill Raiser books that the Lament Configuration has an

562
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: interior either, but there are shots in the film that

563
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: establish an interior to the box, and its interior is

564
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: described in the novella. So there are scenes in the

565
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: movie that I can imagine would have worked a lot

566
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: better in fiction when you didn't have to see them staged.

567
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: And one of them is the scene where the box

568
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: is solved in order to fix the problem, you know,

569
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: where the cinemabytes are sent back to their realm because

570
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: Kirsty Swanson like does the right things with the box.

571
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it just looks funny when she's messing with

572
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: the box while the house is falling apart and pin

573
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: to saying no, don't do that. Yeah. Yeah. It's the

574
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: problems of translating the novella to to the film because

575
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: in the novella the box is also not described as

576
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: being really ornate, even it's really more has more in

577
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: common in the book with the these wooden puzzle boxes

578
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: we've described. Now, uh you know that the here's another

579
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: area to consider. So the Box of Lament is largely

580
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: positioned as a thing that must be solved in order

581
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: to open a gate to reveal a secret. But we

582
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't forget that the cinepytes are also presented, especially

583
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: in the Novella as explorers. Uh, there's a sense of

584
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: curiosity to them. Uh, they're truly spaced out on sensation,

585
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: you might say. And uh so I'm wondering might we

586
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: consider the Lament configuration as a means of exploration as well,

587
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: because certainly puzzle boxes are used in various animal studies

588
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: by scientists, typically with a food reward at the center.

589
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: I believe we've discussed the sorts of boxes in the

590
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: study of Corvitts, where they'll be like generally, you know,

591
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: there's food in the middle of the box. There may

592
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: be some tools, or they have to make their own tool,

593
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: what have you. But they have to come up with

594
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: a way to free the prize from the box, which

595
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: is ultimately what Frank's trying to do with the Lament configuration. Now,

596
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: another noteworthy puzzle box from science history is a Thorndyke's

597
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: puzzle box. Uh. This is the work of an American

598
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: psychologist who was working at the same time as a

599
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: Pavlov and in the same area, you know, looking at

600
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: animals and their problem solving abilities and their behavior. And

601
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: he used this on cats in particular to test their

602
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: learning and problem solving abilities. They're essentially cages that can

603
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: be exited by performing at the correct task, hitting the

604
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: right mechanism, etcetera, in order to to step out of

605
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: the cage and get your food. Uh and uh. In

606
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: His main observation from all of this was the cat

607
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: would behave radically the first time use that you put

608
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: them in the box. The first time they were in

609
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: there for the experiment, but then they would learn so

610
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: in su sequent experiments they wouldn't. They would waste less

611
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: and less time in the box. They would just realize like, oh,

612
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: I'm in here again. I push this button. Then I

613
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: get out and I can get my food. And then

614
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: Thorndyke's work would lead to another noteworthy box, Skinner's Box,

615
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: in which the animal has to engage a mechanism in

616
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: order to be fed within the box, the work of

617
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: BF Skinner. So later installments of the hell Raiser franchise

618
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: explore to some degree the idea of the boxes a

619
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: place or thing that may contain us, but for the

620
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: most part not so much. But the the idea of

621
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: the puzzle boxes a means of exploring human desire. I

622
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: think that's kind of an interesting idea to consider. Well,

623
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: it makes me wonder if the box is also being

624
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: used to test us somehow. If it is being used

625
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: to test us, then to test the humans that you know,

626
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: play with it. Obviously the people doing the testing would

627
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: be the cinobytes, right, So maybe we should turn to

628
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: the cinabytes and think a little bit about about pain, experience, sensation,

629
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: and flagellation. Absolutely, all right, So let's just start with

630
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: the words centobyte, because is this this really gets into

631
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: a lot of what we're going to discuss here. A

632
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: cynobyte is merely a member of a religious group living

633
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: together in a monastic community. There are plenty of cynobytes. Technically,

634
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: there are plenty of cinnobytes in the world today and

635
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: they have They have nothing to do with the hell

636
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: raised their movie. If you've never seen it written out,

637
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: it is not spelled like cinnabun. Uh. It is c

638
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: e n o they had. The word apparently emerged in

639
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: the fifteenth century and it comes from the late Latin

640
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: colon obita. I'm saying that correctly. Uh, Basically you have

641
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: the Greek coin cohen plus bios life, so it basically

642
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: means the monastic life. Now, one obviously does see certain

643
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: levels of self inflicted pain, however, in monastic history, so

644
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: religious rights of flagellation or blood lighting can be found

645
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: throughout Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Native American, and other religious rights.

646
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: We we've covered some of these on the show, but

647
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: for there there are plenty of religious rights of pain

648
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: that can be found in the world and in human history,

649
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: just as there are various secular rights of pain that

650
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: can be found today within the realms of say performance

651
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: art or even you know b D s M for instance,

652
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: uh the later of which served as partial inspiration for

653
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: Clive Barker and likewise Barker's work, while Nott the influencing

654
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: b D s M to some degree as well. Oh

655
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: that's not surprising. Uh So I was looking around, yeah,

656
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: for more historical ideas about pain and pleasure indivisible as

657
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: the as pinhead says they explore, and I came across

658
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: a book by the American psychologist James H. Luba who

659
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 1: lived eighteen sixty eight to nineteen forty six, who focused

660
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: a lot of his work on the psychology of religion.

661
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 1: And this book was called The Psychology of Religious Mysticism.

662
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: And in this book there's part where he's in the

663
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: middle of a section about narcotics, consciousness, and mysticism, and

664
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: Luba begins to discuss the idea of pleasure in pain

665
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: or enjoyment and suffer ring, which is a major theme

666
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: of this movie and of the novel. And his hypothesis

667
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: is that quote, the apparent paradox of people seeking and

668
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: enjoying pain becomes intelligible when one takes into account the

669
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: passion for vivid consciousness. Uh. And so he of course

670
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: is this is in the context of religious experience. So

671
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: he mentions members of self flagellating Muslim sex of the quote,

672
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: painful ascetic practices of the yogi, or the violent dancing

673
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 1: frenzies of the mind ads. He says those quote all

674
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: may yield a sense of new or increased life. Now

675
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: what does he mean by that, Well, he explains further

676
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: by quoting a letter from Gothold Ephraim Lessing to Moses Mendelssohn,

677
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: which in which Lessing writes, quote, were agreed in this,

678
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: my dear friend, that all passions are either vehement cravings

679
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: or vehement loathings. And also that in every vehement craving

680
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: or loathing we acquire an increased consciousness of our reality,

681
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: and that this consciousness cannot but be pleasurable. Consequently, all

682
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: our passions, even the most painful, are as passions pleasurable. Uh,

683
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: which is kind of interesting explore more in a second,

684
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: But that I just realized that made me think of

685
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: a passage in The Brothers Karamazov that's all about uh,

686
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: a character talking about the pleasure one takes in taking offense. UH.

687
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: And I remember being like, Wow, how have I never

688
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: read this before? But it's so true that, like, in

689
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: getting mad about something unfair that has happened to you

690
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: or somebody who's been mean to you or something, there

691
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: is so often this feeling of like almost joy in

692
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: the way that you get worked up about it. Yeah,

693
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: And and there's a difference to like there's certainly there's

694
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: righteous anger. There's a situation where like, if you feel

695
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: like you've been wronged and you're you're having been wronged

696
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: is a part of a larger problem in the culture

697
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: in the world, then yeah, you can get in this

698
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: area of righteous anger. But I think more of what

699
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: you're talking about here are the petty things in life,

700
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: you know, where it's like the server at a restaurant

701
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: doesn't bring you your appetizer first, and you you have

702
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: been wrong, and you just start getting excited about how

703
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: mad you are and on some love like You're probably

704
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: not thinking, oh, I feel so alive, I'm so angry

705
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: at this server. But in a way that is happening.

706
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, So what does Luba think is going on

707
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: with these these passions being pleasurable even when they're painful? Uh?

708
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: He writes that it's because these heightened states of awareness

709
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: and passion triggered by pain offer an escape from a

710
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: sort of baseline form of consciousness characterized by tedium, insensibility

711
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: and normal fatigue. Thus, for some people, normal states of

712
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: consciousness become so boring, so exhausting and tedious that the

713
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: self and election of pain actually unlocks a state of

714
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: mind that is to them preferable by contrast, and and

715
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: this becomes an important distinction in Luba's idea here. It's

716
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: that religious ecstasy in the self infliction of pain is

717
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: not actually an enjoyment directly of the pain itself, but

718
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: an enjoyment of a kind of rapturous and highly aware

719
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: state of mind that's brought about by the infliction of pain.

720
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: Quote not the pain nor the wound does the martyr enjoy,

721
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: but the exaltation that comes with the quivering of the flesh.

722
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: The quivering of the flesh. Oh you're a fan too, No,

723
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: I mean it's so it's interesting. I'll come back to

724
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: Hell Raiser in just a second. I mean, first, I

725
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: would point out that, of course this is in the

726
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: sort of like William James E and cast of like

727
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 1: broad observational psychology, which it doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong,

728
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: but it does mean that it should be thought of

729
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: more like interesting philosophical writings based on observations rather than

730
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: conclusions derived from grisly controlled experiments. But again not to

731
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 1: say he's wrong. It's just that it's not really science

732
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: by modern standards. It's more like philosophy and cultural criticism.

733
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: He could be onto something there, uh, And I do

734
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: think those observations maybe onto something. It's funny that it

735
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: lines up so well with the character of Frank in

736
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: Hell Raiser, a man who again in the movie we

737
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: we see a couple of scenes of him appearing disgusted

738
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: by normal hedonistic pleasure, like all of the regular pleasures

739
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: of the flesh that seemed to have they've failed for him,

740
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: they don't work anymore. Everything's boring. So according to Luba's

741
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,479
Speaker 1: framework here, it could make sense for him to join

742
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: a self flagellating order devoted to the mortification of the flesh,

743
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: because maybe pain will unlock higher states of conscious awareness

744
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: and excitation that he wants to reach, but for which

745
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: the bridges of normal pleasure have collapsed. Yeah. Yeah, I

746
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: think that's a solid read on on Frank's character for sure,

747
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 1: you know. But also Julia is the sort of flip

748
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: side to that coin. She's the tedium side of it.

749
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 1: She is she lives this life of boredom and perhaps

750
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: some level of contempt for her boring husband as well,

751
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: um and ends up being sucked into this world of

752
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: of intense sensation as just as Frank has. But I

753
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: think in all this one thing we get to is

754
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: that it starts to become complicated to try to define

755
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: and understand pain. I think because when you ask what

756
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: is pain, it's something we all know about, you know,

757
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: there's no debating whether there is such a thing as pain.

758
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: But when you try to come up with a rigorous

759
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: definition of it that applies to every case, that becomes difficult.

760
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: I think it goes back to that quote from the

761
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: help Priest himself. What we think of pain is a shadow,

762
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: but pain has a face. Um who just but actually

763
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: like for us to actually define the lines of that face. Uh,

764
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: it's it's extremely difficult and a huge part of that.

765
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: And this is something we've talked about in the show.

766
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: For us, like the difficulty and even discussing pain, Like

767
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: I can talk about my pain, you can talk about

768
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: your pain, but it becomes very difficult for us to

769
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: properly understand each other's pain. Uh, and but properly related. Yeah,

770
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 1: And there are some contexts in which I think it's

771
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: simpler than others. But even in the simpler ones, say

772
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: like regular no susceptive body pain that you would feel

773
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: in the context of, uh, you know, getting pricked with

774
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: a needle or something in a clinical setting. Even then,

775
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: if we look to like best approximation type answers within

776
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: the medical world, you can get definitions like this one,

777
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: which is cited by the International Association for the Study

778
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: of Pain. Quote. Pain is an unpleasant, sensory and emotional

779
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: experience that is associated with actual or potential tissue damage

780
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: or described in such terms. Okay, so that's kind of complicated.

781
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: It's got multiple clauses in there. But also one of

782
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: the things that's difficult about that you immediately hit a

783
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: snag with the idea that pain is explicitly and necessarily

784
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: described as unpleasant. And this very definition would, of course,

785
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: I think that would apply to most cases. I mean

786
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: most cases when people say they're in pain, they think

787
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: of that as bad and they wanted to stop right. Well, yeah,

788
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: I mean part of it. You have the problem with

789
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: our our language, for instance, in in yoga. I practice yoga,

790
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: and something that's often touched on by the teachers is

791
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: that is the distinction between discomfort and pain, Like you

792
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: should work with discomfort, like discomfort is part of the practice.

793
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: But if you're feeling pain, then that means you need

794
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: to back off because you don't want to go into

795
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: that third area of injury of damage. Right. But a

796
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: lot of times it can be hard to tell the

797
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: difference between discomfort and pain. I mean, are they distinct

798
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: classes of things or is that a gradient with you know,

799
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: them being at two different sides of a scale. Uh.

800
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: And of course, the very definition that says that pain

801
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: is necessarily on pleasant would seem to rule out the

802
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: existence of pleasure in pain. It would either mean that

803
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: nobody actually does take pleasure in pain, and I think

804
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: lots of anecdotal evidence would seem to disagree with that right,

805
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: or that painful sensations that bring about pleasure are not

806
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 1: actually technically pain. But in that case, what are they?

807
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: What would you call them? I mean, it's a great

808
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: man once said pain don't hurt, So what are we

809
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: to make of that? Okay, so you quote Roadhouse and

810
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: he said, but I think that position in a way

811
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: is incoherent. He so he says pain don't hurt, but

812
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: then he spends the rest of the movie trying to

813
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: prevent the villain from inflicting pain on people. It's true,

814
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: I've got a real beef with Roadhouse. But I wonder

815
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: if that quote, like part of it is that what

816
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: he's trying to say is that for him, physical pain

817
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: does not have, at least in this case, an emotional context.

818
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: But I think it's in a way, it's like a

819
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: lot of things in the Roadhouse, Like maybe it's accidentally

820
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: clever because because it is getting at that distinction. For

821
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: for human beings, pain is both sensory, like purely sensory,

822
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: but also it has this enormous emotional context, right, yeah,

823
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: that it pain is a physical sensation, you know, there's

824
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: no susception in the nerves in the flesh, and so

825
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: it detects something that is an injury, could indicate an

826
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: injury or something like that. But then it also is

827
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: a motivation. It triggers avoidance behaviors. Yeah, like in the

828
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: the yoga example for instance, like the pain is there

829
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: to tell me, Hey, this thing you're doing to your arm,

830
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: uh is not in your normal practice. You should you

831
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: should be aware that if this continues, worst things could occur. Injury,

832
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: damage could occur. Again, that's normal functioning, not getting into

833
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, disorders of pain. But again, yeah, for humans,

834
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: pain is a complex topic. Uh, physical sensation, but also

835
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: this emotional realm as well. And there are seemingly dimensions

836
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: of pain that are beyond the scope of less cognitively

837
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 1: advanced organisms. You know, not saying animals don't feel pain,

838
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: but and their animals do not necessarily have this emotional

839
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: context to their their suffering as well. Yeah, certainly not

840
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: in the same way. I mean, you can see that

841
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: a painful stimulus might cause a retreat or avoidance behaviors

842
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: and say a crab, but it's hard to believe that

843
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: a crab has the full spectrum of human like fear

844
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: and emotions that that you would get from feeling a

845
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: painful wound, which raises an interesting question. Would a being

846
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: more cognitively advanced than a human being have a greater

847
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: potential for suffering and pain? And maybe would that explain

848
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: something about the nature of many gods and myth and legends. Oh,

849
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: I mean this shows up in existing works of theology.

850
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's something that's often used to

851
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: develop the Christian mythos, which is of course has a

852
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: big theology of the suffering of God. It says that

853
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: God came down into human form, was crucified on the

854
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: cross in the form of Jesus Christ, and then descended

855
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: into hell for three days and then was resurrected. And

856
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: in order to emphasize the immensity of the sacrifice, Christian

857
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: theologians often point out that this isn't just like a

858
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: human suffering, it's God himself suffering. And since God's state

859
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: of holiness and perfection was already infinitely greater than the humans,

860
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: it follows that when he descends to suffering and death.

861
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: That suffering is infinitely greater of an insult than it

862
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,839
Speaker 1: would be to a normal human. So the parts of

863
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: our brain that respond a pleasure also react to sensations

864
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,479
Speaker 1: of pain. This also further complicates things, and the line

865
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: between the two is sometimes a bit of a blur.

866
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: For instance, two thousand thirteen study from the University of

867
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: Oslo found that quote, the brain changed how it processed

868
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: moderate pain according to the context of what the alternative was.

869
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: If the pain was less than anticipated, then the brain

870
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: transformed the sensation into something comforting or even pleasurable. Likewise,

871
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: there was a two fourteen study from Northern Illinois Universty

872
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: that linked sado masochism the altered states of mind that

873
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: can be obtained. Their linked them with with those states

874
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 1: of mind you might achieve through yoga or meditation, you know,

875
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: which I think a lot of that makes sense. You're

876
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,240
Speaker 1: talking about like just a feeling alive in the moment

877
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: of sensation, be that sensation you know, painful or pleasurable,

878
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: Like there is a is essentially a built in mindfulness

879
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: exercise to that. In the same way that if you

880
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: focus on your breath you are living entirely or at

881
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: least more so in the body than you are normally. Likewise,

882
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: if you you know, if you're you accidentally prick your finger,

883
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: you're you're living in the moment of that that that

884
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: that finger prick, like there's probably not a lot else

885
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,439
Speaker 1: on your mind in that single instance. Oh. In fact,

886
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: that this actually comes up in the study I want

887
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: to talk about in a minute that has to do

888
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: with how pain pain has been shown to alter or

889
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: mediate our perception of our identity. Excellent, Uh, the same

890
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen study. The researchers and you know, they

891
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: suspected that pain inflicted in consensual sado masochism alters blood

892
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: flow in the brain, particularly to the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex,

893
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,959
Speaker 1: would plays into our ability to distinguish self from other

894
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: As such, intense pain may result in feelings of oneness

895
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: with you know, the other individual or with humanity or

896
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: the universe, which it is interesting to think about. That

897
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: is really interesting. I mean that gets back into stuff

898
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: we talked about in our episodes on psychedelics, of course,

899
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: with the the sort of self other distinction that is

900
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: sometimes dissolved by changes in brain chemistry, but of course,

901
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: we know that not all changes in brain brain chemistry

902
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: have to come from ingesting chemicals from outside the body,

903
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: right right, Um, And again I do want to underline

904
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: the consensual aspect of that study. They are talking about

905
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: consensual acts of sado maschism here. Oh of course. Yeah. Now,

906
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: I figured it would be worth talking about other interesting

907
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: sign offic research that offers complications in our understanding and

908
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: experience of pain. One thing that I came across that

909
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: was really interesting to me is something that is known.

910
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 1: It's it's a cognitive heuristic known as the peak end phenomenon.

911
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: And so this is a psychological memory bias that says

912
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: that people don't in their memories mentally characterize and experience

913
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 1: by taking an average of the entire duration of the experience. Rather,

914
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: they mentally characterize an experience according to memories of a

915
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: couple of little things, and they tend very often to

916
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: be moments of peak intensity of the experience and then

917
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: the final moments of the experience. And this has been

918
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 1: found to apply to both pleasurable and painful experiences. Of course,

919
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: not all experiences. No psychological phenomenon applies to everything, but

920
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: to a lot in which it very often has strange consequences.

921
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,439
Speaker 1: It's been documented a lot of times now, but one

922
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: important early study is by Daniel Kaneman, Barbara Frederickson, Charles Schreiber,

923
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 1: and Donald Riddelmeyer published in Psychological Science in called win

924
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 1: more pain is preferred to less adding a better end.

925
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: So in this study it was pretty simple. You've got

926
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: to test conditions that both induce pain. Again, like most

927
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: studies are pretty much all good studies, this is gonna

928
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: be non threatening pain, but it will be uncomfortable. And

929
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: what it is here is plunging your hand into cold

930
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: water and holding it there. So in test one, you

931
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: plunge your hand into cold water, which was fifteen degrees celsius,

932
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: and you hold it there for one minute. And then

933
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: in test two, you do exactly the same thing, plunge

934
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: into the fifteen degree celsius cold water, hold it there

935
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,479
Speaker 1: for one minute, but then you also have to hold

936
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: it for an additional thirty seconds as the temperature in

937
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 1: the water is gradually slightly increased, though it's still cold,

938
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: more cold than its comfortab bowl. A majority of people,

939
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: a significant majority of people chose when they had the

940
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: choice to repeat one of the two tests, chose to

941
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: repeat the second test rather than the first, meaning they'd

942
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: rather the discomfort go on longer if the final moments

943
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: of the discomfort were slightly less intense. And other studies

944
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: have found versions of this in different context. It does

945
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: seem that we are willing to experience more pain or

946
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: discomfort for a longer period of time if the last

947
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: few moments of the pain are not as bad. And

948
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: this seems to suggest that there's some way that as

949
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 1: we form memories of painful or unpleasant experience, those memories

950
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 1: can be formed in such a way that objectively, more

951
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 1: pain chronologically measured seems like less pain because the ending

952
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: of it wasn't quite as bad, and the ending seems

953
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: to matter the most to us. But this also makes

954
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: perfect sense if you think of of pain as the

955
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: signal warning you about something that may happen about, you know,

956
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: continued stressing of this particular muscle, or continued exposure to

957
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: a dangerous element such as heat or cold. Oh that's

958
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: very interesting. I hadn't so. I'd seen it mainly interpreted

959
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: like what's causing this? The main interpretation I had seen

960
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: had been recency bias. Of course, you know, we tend

961
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: to uh know. Well, again, there are two things. It's

962
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: the peak intensity of the experience and the end. So

963
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: focusing on the end of the experience, it would be

964
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: the recency bias, right, is the things that happened more

965
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: recently seem more salient to us. Um But yeah, that

966
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: also makes sense, especially for registering pain, because pain is

967
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: a lot about what could happen. It's supposed to be

968
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: giving you warnings that are useful information in order for

969
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: you to protect your body. Right. But then again, at

970
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 1: the same time, as we were discussing and will continuous discuss,

971
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: the human pain is complex, so there are other elements

972
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 1: that I guess may skew that sort of thing. Oh,

973
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: of course, Yeah, so so that's that's an interesting possibility too.

974
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: And I should note that, of course, like a lot

975
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: of psychological phenomenon, the peak in phenomenon doesn't always apply

976
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: at every instance, but it's a general rule. It seems

977
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,919
Speaker 1: like we followed this an awful lot. But if more

978
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: pain objectively measured seems in our minds like less pain,

979
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: at least in retrospect, then what is pain like? What

980
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: is the real pain? What is the real thing that

981
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: we want to try to lessen and avoid or in

982
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: some of these rare cases where people are enjoy or

983
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 1: taking enjoyment and pain, what is the kind they want

984
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 1: to experience? More pain in the memory or pain in

985
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: in the in the moment sensation, since those things don't

986
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: always necessarily match up. Yeah, that's true. I mean, this

987
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that I feel like this

988
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: happens anytime we look at pain or you really think

989
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: about pain. Is that it seems like our our language

990
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: of pain is severely lacking, like we just don't have

991
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: the proper vocabulary to get it all the different nuances here. Yeah, totally.

992
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: I mean it raises all kinds of questions, like, I mean,

993
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: even for yourself, if you're not trying to make a

994
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: judgment for other people, assuming pain is something you want

995
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: to avoid in this context, would you rather have less

996
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: pain in the moment or less pain in your memory

997
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: of an experience? I don't know how to like, I

998
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: really don't know how to answer that, right. I mean,

999
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: this is and this is the total human dimension of pain,

1000
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 1: like the memory of pain, And this is the kind

1001
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: of thing that yeah that you know, some animals are

1002
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: gonna have to deal with a certain animals is gonna

1003
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: have to deal with to some level. But but humans

1004
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: and pain and memory and the ability to to mentally

1005
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 1: time travel back to that pain and then to to likewise,

1006
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, imagine encountering that pain in the future like

1007
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: that defines so much of what we do. Absolutely, now

1008
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: I've got another study to talk about with pain. But

1009
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: should we take a break first and then come back.

1010
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Alright, we're back. We're continuing to spin

1011
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: off of Hell Raiser and the Hell Bound Hard and

1012
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: discuss the nature of pain, pleasure in pain indivisible as

1013
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 1: the Cinobytes would say. So one study I came across

1014
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: that I thought had some interesting bits, and it was

1015
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: called The Positive Consequences of Pain, a Biopsychosocial Approach by Bastion, Jetton, Hornsey,

1016
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: and Lechness from the Social Psychology Review in twoteen. And

1017
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: here this is a big review article. So it's like

1018
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: looking at existing literature to collect examples of ways that

1019
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: pain has been documented to have some positive effects. And

1020
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: of course you can't list all of them, and and

1021
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 1: maybe some of these are better held up by evidence

1022
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: than others. But these are the things that the broad

1023
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: categories that they found some evidence of one is might

1024
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 1: be pretty straightforward, but it's kind of interesting. Pain often

1025
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: enhances subsequent pleasure by providing a contrasting experience. Pain causes

1026
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: people to rate pleasurable variences in the aftermath of the

1027
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: pain as more pleasurable than they otherwise would. Yeah. Like,

1028
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: an example of this that ties in directly with some

1029
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: of the methods used in these experiments is that if

1030
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: you go to ah to certain saunas, there will be

1031
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: a cold water pool, like a chilling water pool, in

1032
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: which you may immerse all or parts of your body

1033
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: and then in and then once you've overcome with the

1034
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: displeasure of that, then you may go and climb into

1035
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: the hot tub, and then the hot tub will be

1036
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: more pleasurable for the discomfort that you have had in

1037
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: the cold tub. Yeah. I don't know to what extent

1038
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: this plays a role in the mythology of the cinabytes,

1039
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: because it seems like they're sort of pursuing pain for

1040
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: its own sake in some cases, right, Like they're not

1041
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: always following it up with a nice sauna or something.

1042
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we never see them just giving a nice

1043
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: gentle bag massage, right. Yeah. The hooks shoot out the

1044
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: hooks and then it's like, ah, but then after that

1045
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: you get to go have some ice cream. Okay. Another

1046
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: thing from their list is they say there's evidence that

1047
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: pain increases sensory sensitivity. It sort of increases our sampling

1048
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: rate of sensations from the physical world. In some cases,

1049
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,959
Speaker 1: this can be good. Yeah, I mean this makes sense,

1050
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: right If your if your body is receiving or resonating

1051
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: with the signal that something something is potentially damaging the body,

1052
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: then it makes sense that the century awareness is also

1053
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: ratcheted up in order to take in what may be

1054
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: harming the body. Right. Another one they point out pretty

1055
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 1: interesting is that pains sometimes blocks or alleviates our sense

1056
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: of guilt, which could otherwise prevent us from experiencing pleasure. Robert,

1057
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: I think you had some details on a study that

1058
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: looked into this, right, yes, I do. This is a study.

1059
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: This one came before the other one. This is from

1060
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven, but it's also from Brock Bastion,

1061
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: the lead author of the other study. A real um

1062
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: you know Hollywood leading man name. Uh that sounds like

1063
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: an action here. Uh So basically Brockbastion of the University

1064
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: of Queensland Australia set out to understand uh, you know,

1065
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: what's going on with pain In this situation, Beastion's team

1066
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: recruited young male and female test subjects under the guise

1067
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: of a mental and physical acuity study. The researchers asked

1068
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: the test subjects to write a personal essay about a

1069
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: time in which they ostracize someone, and the aim here

1070
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: was to make them feel guilty or immoral. Meanwhile, a

1071
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: control group wrote personal essays about a routine memory. You know,

1072
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: nothing painful, just a memory, And the researchers instructed both

1073
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: the immoral volunteers and the control group to hold their

1074
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:38,439
Speaker 1: hands in a bucket of ice water for as long

1075
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 1: as they could stand it, and others dip their hands

1076
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: in a soothing bucket warm water. So the question is

1077
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: would immoral test subjects punish themselves with longer dips in

1078
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: the cold water? The the individuals who just had to

1079
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: write a personal essay about a time that they were

1080
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: awful would and then would they feel better afterwards? And

1081
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: the answer ends up being yes on both counts. Uh.

1082
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: Those who were primed to feel shape aim about past

1083
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: actions dip their hands in the cold water for longer durations,

1084
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: and they described the dip as more painful and express

1085
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: reduced feelings of guilt afterwards. So Rock Bastion argues that

1086
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: this experiment illustrates our culturally altered understanding of pain. We've

1087
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: come to process it not only is negative and environmental feedback,

1088
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: but is justice and punishment. So on a psychological level, Uh,

1089
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of self inflected pain rebalances

1090
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: the scales. Uh. Now, I would say, on one hand,

1091
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: this is the kind of like intuition confirming social psychology

1092
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: research that always makes me think, like I'd like to

1093
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: see that replicated, you know, a few times. But but yeah,

1094
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 1: assuming that the results hold up, that that is interesting

1095
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: that like the pain would have this this effect on

1096
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: our self critical judgments, which also, of course gives another

1097
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: explanation of why self infliction of pain rituals might be

1098
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: so common in certain religious orders, especially people who take

1099
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: sins of the flesh very seriously. Yeah, we see, we

1100
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,959
Speaker 1: see and read about an example of self flagellation in Burdo.

1101
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 1: Echo is the name of the rose. Yes, and of

1102
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 1: course in that in the movie adaptation, uh, the girl

1103
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: is played by the same actor who would play a

1104
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: Cinabyte in the fourth hell Racer movie. Really, so, there's

1105
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: your vital on Burdo echo hell rasor connection love it? Okay,

1106
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 1: a few more things mentioned in this study. Uh So.

1107
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: One thing they say is that pain. There's some evidence

1108
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: that pain quote brings cognitive resources online, so it helps

1109
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: increase our cognitive effective control of ourselves. They say that pain.

1110
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: That this one was interesting and we hinted at it earlier.

1111
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: They say that pain enables identity management, and one example

1112
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: they give here is that physical pain in the body

1113
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,959
Speaker 1: can sometimes interrupt what the authors call quote high level

1114
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: awareness of a symbolically mediated, temporarily extended identity. In other words,

1115
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: the kind of thinking about oneself that leads to negative,

1116
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: repetitive introspection, worry, self consciousness. That physical pain increases awareness

1117
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 1: of the immediate physical body and decreases the immediate salience

1118
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 1: of these kinds of worries. That the negative introspection about oneself,

1119
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 1: and this this horrible symbolic entity known as a person

1120
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: tied up in this idea of a soul, which really

1121
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: we should we so we should thank the cynobytes for

1122
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: tearing the soul apart. Like in the movie It you

1123
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: Know it comes off as more with this threat. Right,

1124
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you we're going to tear your soul apart.

1125
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 1: What really we should be saying the saying thank you.

1126
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: That's the kind of ego loss I've been searching for.

1127
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 1: That's why I picked up the limit configuration. Right, That's

1128
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: how you finally achieve the higher state of consciousness. Okay,

1129
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: and a couple of other things they mentioned. This one

1130
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: I think is pretty straightforward, but it's true pain can

1131
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: be interpreted as demonstrating virtue such as courage, toughness, dedication.

1132
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: The symbolic value of withstanding pain can sometimes override the

1133
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: physical discomfort of the pain itself. Though at the same time,

1134
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: worth pointing out that's a great way to wind up

1135
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: in that that third category of injured if you were

1136
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: just you know, like I'm too I'm too masculine. Uh,

1137
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, I'm too powerful to listen to the pain signal. Well,

1138
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: now you have the injury and damage signal, and you

1139
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: have to deal with that, right, Yes, And they also

1140
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: note several ways in which it appears that pain promotes

1141
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 1: affiliation between people, you know. They say the expression of

1142
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: pain can sometimes increase empathy and care for others. And

1143
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: the expressions of pain can trigger social connections and they

1144
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: can strengthen bonding and solidarity and in the later you

1145
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: know how raizor movies. This this holds true, right because

1146
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: once the cinebytes are done with you like you are

1147
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: one of them. Yeah, I guess that's true. Now, I

1148
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: do want to stress on a briefly serious note that

1149
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: while we're talking about these uh possibly recognized psychological benefits

1150
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 1: of different kinds of pain, we should stress us that

1151
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 1: none of the potential benefits of pain should be interpreted

1152
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: as excuses to continue practices of actual self injury, uh

1153
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: you know, meaning like the deliberate damaging of your body

1154
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: tissues such as cutting or burning. If you are practicing

1155
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: self injury or considering it, including of course non suicidal

1156
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: self injury, this is not something to deal with on

1157
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 1: your own. This is something that's important to talk to

1158
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: people about, talk to friends of family members or mental

1159
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: health professional if at all possible. There are other ways

1160
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: to get relief from the underlying issues that lead to

1161
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: this coping mechanism, and they're far less dangerous. Absolutely, um

1162
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 1: no on this On the same night. You know, we

1163
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: do have listeners who who have you know taken part

1164
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: in b D s M. We've also heard from listeners

1165
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: who have done hook suspension. But I think it's it's

1166
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: very important to note like these are these are avenues

1167
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: that one should you know, enter into with safety in mind.

1168
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 1: And also if you you know, if you go into

1169
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: any of these things, uh, you know, safety is going

1170
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: to be a part all of those ventures. Like how

1171
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: to essentially utilize pain without leading to that area of

1172
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: damage um of you know of injury or certainly infection. Um,

1173
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,959
Speaker 1: so certainly do your research. It's also worth stressing that

1174
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: that some levels of physical pain, that the pain is

1175
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: not always the right word, can certainly be acquired through exercise.

1176
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I just want to say one

1177
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: of the studies I was looking at, though, it was

1178
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: very clear to say that I think at the time

1179
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: exercise had not been found to be like an empirically

1180
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: reliable way of curing self injury pattern behavior that anecdotally

1181
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 1: it was often reported by patients that exercise was had

1182
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: been substituted for self injury. Yeah. I would say that,

1183
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: like basically, if you if you were inspired by anything

1184
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: you heard here and you want to try something, well,

1185
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 1: first of all, the cold water. I think it is

1186
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: a great avenue to consider. But also, yeah, just you know,

1187
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: most levels of exercise, you know you hear about like

1188
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: feeling the burn, right, um, you know, experiencing some level

1189
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: of discomfort during a workout, and perhaps the soreness that

1190
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 1: you would experienced in the following forty eight hours. Like

1191
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: you know, that's a I think that's that's an area

1192
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 1: where one might pursue some of what we're talking about,

1193
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: and that comes with a lot of added benefits for

1194
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 1: your life and your mental health as well. Right, yeah,

1195
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: and if you're doing it right, you know, you're not

1196
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: injuring yourself in the process. Like so much of what

1197
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about, Like it really resonates with with my

1198
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 1: own yoga practice, is that you know that I I

1199
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: can feel myself, you know, putting myself into this this

1200
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: level of discomfort, staying clear of the area of injury,

1201
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: and in doing so, like feeling this heightened uh state

1202
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: of existence you know, uh, like I feel more in

1203
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 1: tune with my body and my surrounding and with the

1204
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: people in the room with me that are also engaging

1205
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 1: in this uh, in this practice that are also experiencing

1206
01:06:56,120 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: the same thing. Um. So yeah, I would. I would say, yeah, don't,

1207
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: don't do what what Pinhead does, go to a yoga

1208
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,480
Speaker 1: studio instead. Well, I would be curious in your yoga practice.

1209
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: Do you find the reduction of the negative aspects of self,

1210
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 1: self introspection and the ability to self regulate your identity

1211
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 1: processes through this the discomfort brought about in yoga? Absolutely, Yeah,

1212
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the main reasons I do it

1213
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And maybe I gotta

1214
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: give yoga to try one of these days. Oh, you

1215
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 1: gotta give it more than one try, because I hated

1216
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 1: it the first time I did. So. Anywhere in talent

1217
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: does like horror yoga? Like horror themed yoga. There's our

1218
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 1: former co host, Christian would go to a death metal yoga.

1219
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: I've heard of that. It's not the same. Yeah, you want,

1220
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 1: you want a full horror themed yoga, pumpkin head yoga yoga? Yeah,

1221
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, there's there's so many forms of yoga.

1222
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: I feel like there is room for that that brand

1223
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 1: of yoga as well. Okay, I think we may have

1224
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 1: done it for pain here, but I think we could

1225
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 1: briefly talk about skinless critters do you want to do that?

1226
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well yeah, Frank in the film spends a

1227
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: lot of time skin less. You know, it comes back

1228
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: as a shriveled corpse, and then he's able to drink

1229
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: enough blood to regenerate, but then he needs to acquire

1230
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,799
Speaker 1: a new skin. He keeps thinking he's going to get skinned,

1231
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: but then he never Like one victim after another, he's like,

1232
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: he's got to have skin. This time he's almost there,

1233
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 1: and then still no skin. Right. And in the second movie,

1234
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: which which I have not seen in a long time,

1235
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: but I remember as being fun, Uh, test, I don't

1236
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: know if I remember fun. I remember fun. Basically, it's

1237
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: like it's Ernest goes to Hell. They go to Hell.

1238
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: It's not well, they go to Hell, Yes, but Earnest.

1239
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 1: I don't think it's quite an Earnest movie. Um, but no.

1240
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: In that film, we encounter Frank again and we encounter Julia,

1241
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 1: and Julia now also has this skin less and has

1242
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 1: to acquire a skin, and at one point she's able

1243
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 1: to slip away by sort of uh you know, being

1244
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 1: like like sort of leaving her skin behind, shedding her skin,

1245
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 1: and uh, it is interesting to to then look to

1246
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 1: the natural world and see that. We do see a

1247
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: practice like this as a defense mechanism in certain organisms.

1248
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:23,280
Speaker 1: We've talked about autatonomy before on the show, the amazing

1249
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 1: biological ability to shed part of one's body to facilitate

1250
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: escape from a predator. The most classic example being a

1251
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: lizard shedding its tail. Yeah, you sort of give the

1252
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: predator a consolation prize, yeah, or a distraction. There are

1253
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:42,560
Speaker 1: a few different interpretations of it, right, it's a compromise.

1254
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 1: It gets the tail, you get to survive. But there's

1255
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:49,240
Speaker 1: also there are also two species of African spiny mice

1256
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 1: that slouch off portions of their furry flesh when they're

1257
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 1: grabbed by a predator. Uh So, so you know, it's

1258
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: one thing to see this in a lizard, but then

1259
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 1: here's a here's a mammal that does it. It's it's flesh,

1260
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: it's not a limb that it's going to regrow. It's

1261
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: just a big portion of its skin that pulls aside.

1262
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: So as I saw explained in nature, uh, these self

1263
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 1: flaying mice simply slip out of portions of their own

1264
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 1: hide and rapidly regrow complete suits of hair, follical skin,

1265
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 1: sweat glands, for and even cartilage to fill in the gaps.

1266
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: And we see some of that regenerative power in Julia

1267
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: Cotton in hell Razor too. But Frank he'd never seemed

1268
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: to have quite learned that ability on his own. Now

1269
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: he had to steal his brother's skin. Now we find

1270
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 1: another rather uh skilled skin shucker, if you will, in

1271
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: the form of a particular gecko species from Madagascar. Uh.

1272
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 1: These are fish scaled geckos. I'm gonna attempt the species name.

1273
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 1: This is what when we need uh mark mandinka in

1274
01:10:55,400 --> 01:11:00,959
Speaker 1: the studio. But it's a gecko Lepis megallepis. And basically

1275
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 1: they have these giant, kind of oversized looking fish scales

1276
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,639
Speaker 1: on their body and uh and and basically if something

1277
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 1: tries to capture them, they shed the skin. And it

1278
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 1: actually makes it difficult to study them because you have

1279
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:17,360
Speaker 1: to researchers have to collect specimens with special cotton based traps.

1280
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: And even these are are not quite delicate enough to

1281
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 1: prevent injury. Like they'll basically shed some of their skin

1282
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 1: at the drop of a hat. It's a bomber. You

1283
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: need to find a way to calm them down before

1284
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 1: you catch them. Yeah, well, I mean but basically they

1285
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't want to be caught period. Yeah,

1286
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 1: you know, so there's a lot like Frank in that

1287
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: that situation. Frank does not want to be recaptured by

1288
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 1: the cinepipes. Uh. And of course, not only are these

1289
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: both of these these these these different animals of the

1290
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 1: mice and the geckos, not only are they interesting in

1291
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 1: their own right, uh, this is another one of those

1292
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,640
Speaker 1: areas as with you know, lizards regrowing their tails and

1293
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 1: other regenerative uh powers in nature, Like there is a

1294
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: potential here to to figure out how to employ regenerative

1295
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: met coal um technology in humans down the line, like

1296
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: salamander research. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of things. So you know,

1297
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: we could reach the I don't know about regrowing a

1298
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 1: human's complete skin, but certainly we're getting into that area

1299
01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:18,640
Speaker 1: of possibility. But the skin comes off really easily in

1300
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 1: Hell Raiser, I don't know if you've noticed this, and

1301
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,720
Speaker 1: in a lot of horror films, um, well, there are

1302
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: two things that happened way too easily. First of all,

1303
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: someone can be impaled on something super easily. And then

1304
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: also and in person's entire skin can be pulled off,

1305
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, with relative ease. So as far as impaling

1306
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 1: and stabbing and stuff goes, horror movies seem to forget

1307
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 1: that people have bones. You ever noticed that. It's like

1308
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 1: where the bones somebody trips and a table leg all

1309
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: the way through the body, like just straight through, yeah,

1310
01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 1: right through all the bones, in the chest, through the heart.

1311
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 1: Everything is if the human body is made out of

1312
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 1: balsa wood. Robert, this has been mighty fun to discuss today.

1313
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 1: But I notice hooks and chain is emerging from the

1314
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 1: studio walls to that's the sign that we have to

1315
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 1: call it there. Obviously, we we could continue to talk

1316
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 1: about the nature of pain here. Uh. So hey, if

1317
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 1: you want, if you want more, check out some of

1318
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 1: our past episodes on pain. Uh and I'm sure we'll

1319
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,320
Speaker 1: come back around to pain in the future. There are

1320
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: a number of things we've touched on here that we

1321
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: could flesh out in a future episode. Unintended yes, yeah,

1322
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean when you're talking hell Raiser, all puns are intended.

1323
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 1: So uh. In the meantime, if you want to check

1324
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 1: out other episodes, where can you find them? What? You

1325
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 1: can find them in Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1326
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: That's our website. You can also find them wherever you

1327
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Uh and hey, if you're on that

1328
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,200
Speaker 1: thing they call Facebook, you can find the Facebook group

1329
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:44,600
Speaker 1: for Stuff to Blow Your Mind. It's the Stuff to

1330
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind discussion module. That's a fun place to

1331
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 1: interact with other listeners. Uh and uh and occasionally the

1332
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,839
Speaker 1: hosts themselves. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producers,

1333
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson. Thanks Joe, Hey, this is Seth hopping

1334
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 1: in real quick. Just say a quick thank you to

1335
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 1: Annie Reese for providing the voice of our Cinembyte at

1336
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:08,560
Speaker 1: the beginning of their the lead Cinebyte the Proto Pinhead. Um.

1337
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: If you want to hear more from Annie doing awesome

1338
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:13,840
Speaker 1: things with her voice, you should listen to her podcasts,

1339
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,599
Speaker 1: That Sminty Stuff Mom Never Told You, and Savor all

1340
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,439
Speaker 1: this month. Just like we're doing our Halloween themed episodes,

1341
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 1: they're doing their Halloween themed episodes and they're all really great.

1342
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,640
Speaker 1: There's some stuff on female monsters, the feminism of the

1343
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 1: Alien franchise, female serial killers, the Winchester House. Um, let's

1344
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,840
Speaker 1: see apple cider, the turnips. You know turnips were the

1345
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 1: original jack lanterns. Just saying these are all really cool

1346
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: things that you will learn if you go listen to

1347
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 1: uh Annie on her other podcasts, Sminty and Savor. Go

1348
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 1: do that. Everyone All right Back to you, Joe. If

1349
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:49,120
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1350
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:51,560
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

1351
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

1352
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

1353
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is a

1354
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,719
Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts

1355
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio is a the iHeart Radio app,

1356
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.