WEBVTT - Bonus 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:10.239 I'm Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:20.479 Sacred Scandal. First off, we'd like to sincerely thank you 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.000 all for listening to Sacred Scandal. A lot of you 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.040 not only invested time, but became emotionally invested in this 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.280 case as well. You've written your concerns about Mike, about Ukraine, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.160 about us when we were there. You were even worried 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.559 about denn As, our producer, going up that hill. We 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:42.120 were humbled by your involvement. During the run of this season. 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:47.040 We received tons of emails with great questions, really great questions, 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.839 questions that have gotten us thinking too. We were touched 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.440 by seeing how our listeners were following us side by 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.640 side on this case each step of the way. In 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:00.400 this bonus episode, our listeners take them my can get 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.680 to ask us questions. We'll also be hearing from the 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.840 friends we made in Ukraine who are going through unimaginably 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.400 trying times right now, and we'll share with you some 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.160 of our favorite anecdotes and stories that we didn't get 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:23.160 to share with you during the season. Congratulations, ladies, you 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.720 made an amazing podcast with an almost unbelievable story. If 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.520 it hadn't been told. Now, I'm afraid it never would 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:36.560 be told. So we're all eternally grateful. Thank you. We 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:41.759 are beyond moved to receive messages like this. Something our listener, 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.600 Jesse Cohen says might be true if we hadn't told 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.200 the story when we told it, could we have told 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.240 it at all? With the war in Ukraine and Father 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.960 one getting older, we may never have been able to 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.040 sit atop that hill for three hours and speak to him. 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.760 Had we waited only two more months, We feel that, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.560 I mean was fundamental to telling this story. We were 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.200 incredibly lucky. Had we done this as a documentary fifteen 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.080 years ago like we first set out to do, would 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:15.400 Father Went have been ready to speak. One of our listeners, Victoria, 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.360 got us thinking, this is Victoria, and my question is, 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.600 how did you Convince Went to talk to you. Well, 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.080 that's a good question. That was one of the scariest 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.840 moments I think in my life, pulling over in that 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.040 car off the side of the road and Petro handed 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:33.840 him the phone, and I think the first thing I 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.840 said was this is not a complete story without you. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.560 And I think how I got them first to open 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:44.639 up was reminiscing about old holy Cross experiences and memories 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.079 and you know, the good things that I remembered from 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:48.920 the school, and that got him to soften up a 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.720 little bit with me. And then it was just like, 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.640 so I'm here, I'm in Ukraine to hear you, to 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.679 hear your voice. And I think at that point he 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.960 felt some sort of sense of responsibility. I think it 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.920 was the fact that I said, the only person speaking 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.600 for holy Cross has been Mehil you know, I think 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:13.240 that did it. Not All of your questions had answers 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.840 that were cut and dry. Why do Father Damon and 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.320 Basketball work at a supermarket? I'm confused. If they own 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.919 property in a hospital in Ukraine, why do they need 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.600 to send money to win? Do they rent out the hospital? Well, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.040 Petro actually mentioned that they have a lot of debt 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.400 because the hospital was so expensive to build and the 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.520 equipment they bought, it's like hundreds of thousands of dollars 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:40.240 of MRI machines, cat scan machines. There's a lot of 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.560 maintenance involved. And I think because the hospital kind of 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.720 failed for them, they owe all this money. And and 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:53.160 I guess in Ukraine, uh, it's harder to make a living, 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.400 especially right now. So I think that's why Father Damon 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.960 and the steal work at a supermarket in North Carolina, 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.920 and that's how they help out with with expenses. I 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.320 do find it very strange, to be honest, that two 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.080 months have to work on a supermarket, because usually like 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.400 the monastery maintained to you, but I guess they don't 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.000 really have another way to make money. Well, they don't 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.040 have followers, and they don't have you know, mass or donations, 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.400 but also school. So and ask your your question is 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.320 a great one, and we we originally don't have a 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:33.320 clear answer. We are stumped. Other questions were questions we'd 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.320 already asked ourselves and the attorneys, but it never seemed 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.200 like anyone really ever knew the answer. Hi, Melanie and Paula. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.599 I was wondering if you asked, why did Petro get 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.839 adopted by Father Went? And was it by Petro's choice? 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.440 Hi Mickey, thank you very question. UM. I think that um, 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.560 it was definitely the Father Went idea, and Petro agreed. 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.599 Not even the investigators really knew the answer to this question. 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.080 At first, the assumption was that there was something to 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:09.360 do with their immigration status, and that being UM a 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.560 legal son of one of these priests would make it 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.760 easier for them to become a citizen. But gay Levine 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.720 even said she asked immigration and they said that wasn't 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.120 the case, that they were already on student visas, and 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:25.279 that that wouldn't really have made a difference. Um. I 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.560 guess the other theory was inheritance, if father wanted to 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:31.719 make sure if anything happened to him, that Petro would 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.880 inherit whatever they had. But what's really strange is that 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.520 they took about poverties. So a monkey isn't supposed to own, 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.560 you know, property or or have you know, assets, or 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:49.560 or an estate. Your concerns and questions about Mike always 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:51.920 moved us, and we told them how much people out 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.360 there wondered about him. One question in particular, we're really 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.960 happy to be able to answer. Mike said he brought 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.760 the knife because he would cut himself. I was wondering 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:05.360 if he continued to do that. The answer is no, Uh, 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.200 Mike does not cut himself anymore. Now he has a 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.400 different way to let out his emotions, and we were 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.160 definitely so happy to see it. He writes he writes 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.880 short stories. Um so whenever he feels anything that's you know, 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.240 negative or things like that. You can sometimes hear it 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.320 in the story right now, like some of his subject matters. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.760 Sometimes it's a little dark, a little dark. Yeah, but 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.039 for me, it just feels like that's his new outlet 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.320 and it's so much healthier. And yeah, he sends every 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.200 single story to us, and we really want to share 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.680 it with everybody. Uh soon, we want to. He wants 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.039 us to share the stories with you guys too. And 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.039 I just remember even from the last visit to seeing 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.200 his arm like it's obviously he's been a cutter for years, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.240 you know, but they're healed and it looks like it's 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:57.000 been Yeah, they're just heed for years, very scarred. Yeah. 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.359 Up next, we take a look at a question that 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.960 more than one of you had. Hey, Paula and Melanie, 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.919 big fan of the podcast, loving it. Thank you so 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.440 much for taking questions. I was curious if while in 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.320 the Ukraine you had a chance to visit or speak 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.000 with any of the other Monastic candidates, or if they 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:22.200 have spoken at all since the original investigation. Yosip declined 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.640 on I sent him on WhatsApp message he said not interested. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.960 He was very polite though and like he said, I'd 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.560 rather be keeping my experience as at holy Cross private 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.440 or yeah. Ivan never responded, neither did Basile. Neither did. 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.360 We found Basile on Facebook and we sent him a 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:44.280 few messages and nothing friend requests. And then Sasha. There's 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.640 just we can never find Sasha ever. Ever, there's just 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:49.600 no trace of him on the internet. The only one, 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.880 I mean, we we did talk to Eliah. Um Elia 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.440 has been really, really helpful and its perspective has changed 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.880 a lot throughout the years. And and Petro obviously, and 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.000 this next one is a great question. And when we've 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:09.880 wondered about ourselves, I'm wondering if sister Michelle was aware 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:14.800 of any of the alleged abuse. Well, we asked Mike directly, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.880 because that was always a theory in our minds that 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.920 maybe that would explain why he killed sister Michelle, was 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.360 that she knew about the abuse and didn't do anything 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.120 to protect him. There was another theory, the wilder one 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.840 back then, that was that sister Michell knew about the abuse, 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:33.599 she was going to say something, she was going to 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:38.200 report it, and then father went like put Mike up 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.520 for it and like made him kill her, which is crazy. 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.480 That's pretty definitely not true. Definitely not true. I think 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.560 Also they put Sister Michelle really really far away. The 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.920 convent was on the other side of the football fields 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.200 and all of that, right, so if something was going on, 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.520 she probably wouldn't have seen it and non nobody would 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.760 have shared it with her. Yeah, she wasn't the confidante 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.160 my person were Mike would feel comfortable talking to her 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.000 about this kind of stuff, or or any of them 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.760 in asked the candidates, I don't think. When we asked 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.560 Mike about this, he said he didn't think Sister Michelle 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.400 knew about the abuse. He said he didn't see her 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.040 witness anything, and he certainly didn't talk to her about it. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.600 Another question we got from a listener was more about 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.600 my own experience at holy Cross. They wanted to know 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:25.600 what it was like to go to a school run 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.600 by father went and Father Damien. And it's an interesting 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.959 question because I started to think, what was it like 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.000 for real, every day to day to day. And one 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:38.920 of the things that stood out to me was confession, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.320 for example, like in a Catholic school. I don't know 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.000 about other Catholic schools, but having to do confession with 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.120 your own principle, or with someone that's in charge of 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.720 your discipline, Like, how can you confess, for example, that 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.160 you cheated on a test or that you did something 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.240 like that. So, for example, my confessions were never very 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.839 very thorough because they were a lot of things that 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.720 you know, I'd have to leave out for the sake 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.800 of me staying in the school. I don't know if 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.640 there would have been That is very strange. Yeah, it 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:09.800 is very strange. And you know, there was a line, 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.280 there was a line. It was a longer line to 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.040 confess with father went That's what a lot of students remembered. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.360 And then father Dami would also confess people, and nobody 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.839 wanted to confess with him. Um, why do you think that, 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.440 I don't know, just the vibe, like kind of the 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:29.200 creepy vibe that a lot of people described. Um, and yeah, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.600 they were super intimidating. And you know, I felt like 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.360 that guy was the pope or like similar, because I 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.600 was young, and because my parents respected him, and all 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.280 the parents respected him, and you know, he was just 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:47.880 important looking. And when he passed by, floating down the 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.520 aisles the hallways, oh my god, people would just make way, 0:10:52.840 --> 0:11:08.360 you know, almost bowing, just intimidated. The day the war 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.520 started in Ukraine, our listeners started writing to us immediately 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:34.360 after a break. We'll be addressing those concerns. Welcome back 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:41.480 to Sacred Scandal. I'm Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley. 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.160 At the start of this project, we were already warned 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.199 that it was only a matter of time before the 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:55.000 Russians invaded this beautiful country. But now having just been 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:59.080 there and experiencing that amazing place firsthand, this war hits hard. 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.760 And since we took you all on our journey to 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.560 Ukraine for this podcast, it seems like a lot of 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.959 you feel just like we do. Here's another listener. This 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:12.760 is Chas Bayfield from Tasmania, Australia. I'd love to know 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.600 whether you've been in touch with any of the people 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.600 in the Ukraine who feature in your podcasts and whether 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.200 they're a k because I'm sure a lot of your 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.520 listeners are very concerned for them. Our friends in Ukraine 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.920 have been sending us messages, so we'll let them answer 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.440 for themselves. Here's Elia Hertzock. The man asked the candidate 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.880 that we're sure you know by now my family have 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.160 been affected by the war which was started by Pudgin. 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.600 I have my business in Czech Republic, so when Russians 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.520 started bombing our cities, I was out of Ukraine as usual. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:53.240 On the second day, after the military troops entered, I 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:58.160 decided that my family has to leave Ukraine and joined 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:03.280 me here. So now we are together at our home 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:08.560 in Czech Republic. Also, some of my friends and acquaintances, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:13.200 after they have been sent their families, wives and children 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.319 to safe places, went to fight. Even as a soldiers, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.320 all of us are actually ready to stand against the 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:28.319 killers from Russia. Regarding my plan for the future, for 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:33.000 now to stay outside to f create. I'm helping here 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.840 our people, women and children who had run away from 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.920 war to find their shelter here and helping them with 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:49.120 registration of all necessary documents to stay, transport or anything else. 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:56.319 We are gathering humanitarian aid and sending it to my country. 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:01.000 And I believe that this war will be stopped and 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.840 not on the stop, but we will be in against 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:09.080 this evolves from Russia and me and my family and 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.959 other families will be able to come back to peaceful 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:30.160 Ukrainian nearest future. That's what we want. Julia, our translator 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.120 who we immediately became close friends with and who made 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.800 every interaction we had in Ukraine. So Steamless also sent 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:45.840 us an update. My name is Julia and I'm Ukrainian. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.640 And the recent events and the bar was truly truly 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:55.040 heartbreaking and terrifying. Every morning looks like waking up and 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:59.120 checking the news, seeing what cities were bombed, seeing who 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:06.720 survived died, and that's something really really, um really heartbreaking. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.960 We live in the most western part of Ukraine, so 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.360 we were lucky enough not to get bombed, but I 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.280 can't say the same about so many places. We have 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:20.120 family all over Ukraine. Some live in the occupied territories, 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.640 some are fighting at war, some are getting bombed and 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.560 just praying every day to survive, to survive, just one 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:33.800 day at a time. My region is receiving many, many 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:40.360 refugees and theyre arrived like fifty people. And that's our 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:45.440 city is one hundred thousand people. Um, many many people 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.560 are coming. Just yesterday we received one thousand kids who 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.920 were evacuated without their parents because there wasn't just an 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:59.040 opportunity like this. But on the better side, if I 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.640 can say that with all its happening, our people are 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.840 as united as as possible, and it's truly truly breast 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.680 taken to see how so many people are connecting and 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:25.040 helping each other. So yeah, glory to Ukraine. We also 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.360 wanted to know how Mike was feeling about this whole 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.400 thing and if he had heard from his parents. Actually 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.360 got a videogram and emails for our parents and what 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.840 are they saying, how are they what's their their mood? 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.560 My parents are all right, of course, because they are 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.920 really worried about, you know, everything that's going on in 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.480 it's really difficult times right now that they are going 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.800 around in Ukraine, and it's really sad because as you 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.640 can see on the news, you can see a lot 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:55.600 of a lot of people displays, a lot of people 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.840 are dead, a lot of you know, children are dead. 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.400 And do you think Bert Wurkovina Bistra going to be 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.320 safe for now? You know, you know nothing, nothing for certain, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.120 but you know, in my my town is really one 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.199 of Sisi's places right now because it's located far in 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.639 the west, right on border with this point. You know 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.200 you've been in my town, so you know you can 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.720 see from my house you can see the point, so 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.720 it would be really easy for your parents to kind 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.720 of go over the border if they need to in 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.040 the last minute sort of emergency. Right, yeah, they would 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.080 be most I'm sure. I'm sure the Polish would open up. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.320 Remember back then in the nineties we had you know, 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:39.119 reservoir Polish border and guys, you think those very personal, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:44.160 you know, go and just watch all the border, you know. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.080 but I'm sure you know, uh yeah, right now Poland 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.760 is really good, you know the claim right now, they're 0:17:51.760 --> 0:18:00.240 really helpful. We have been in constant contact with Ria 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.040 and Yuriko Fell and we thought we'd read you one 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.880 of the messages that they sent us. Hello, Paula and Melanie. 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.639 We thank god all is quiet and that there is 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.720 no shelling. We live far from the border of Russia 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:16.000 and Belarus. Many refugees flee from the war through our 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:22.360 Transcarpathia region. Terrible battles continue and keep all Ukrainians think 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:30.679 the countries that help us. When we saw the co Fells, 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.359 we talked to them for hours and it's crazy to 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.720 think only a few minutes made it into the show. 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.200 But there's a lot of stuff like that that didn't 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.240 make it. In coming up after the break we'll be 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:43.640 sharing some tape that didn't make it into the show. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:19:11.520 Stay with us, m Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. I'm 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:17.280 Paula Barrows and I'm Melanie Bartley. For the sake of 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.000 the story and keeping things concise, we had to leave 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.160 out a lot of tape that we thought our listeners 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.440 might find interesting. So in this last segment, we're gonna 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:30.439 be playing some of that tape for you. During our 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.359 trip to Ukraine, we met up with Dr Marianna to Korshinska, 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.960 a Ukrainian doctor who was hired by Mike's defense team 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.880 to evaluate him. She spent time with Maria and Yuriko 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.919 felt as part of her evaluation, and she gave us 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:54.159 some great cultural perspective we hadn't heard before. The situation 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.440 with his father was very bad for him. Yes, so 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:05.160 he told that he wanted to escape from from that 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:13.760 family as quickly as possible. And this possibility to go 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.520 to this school or something like that. He really wanted 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.640 to be a priest, even named a monk, and it 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:29.960 was for him, it was very serious and for our people. 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:35.040 You have to understand, America, it was something amazing. So 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:40.680 some heaven, yes, so to get there. It was such 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.239 a big luck, and I'm sure for him it was 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:47.840 like he'll be there, he will become a priest and 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.520 everything will be We'll be just perfect. Here it was 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.800 a hell and there will be a heaven. Yes, and 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.520 it was it was not only for him like that, 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.879 it all for mostly for all of us. Yes, So 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:09.920 it was like that America is something so here I 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:17.240 went to America, Yes, and our thing was destroyed. We've 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.879 always asked ourselves how Maria and Yurik fell. Never suspected 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.000 Mike might be being abused, even when he and father 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.399 Damien came to visit and would share a bed with 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.959 their son in their home. You have also to understand 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:37.600 such things has happened there. In our mind something absolutely impossible, 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:44.199 believe me, homosexuality here it's it's maybe now. It is 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:49.720 more like it is possible to be in our time. 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:55.920 In his time, it was something like absolutely not impossible 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:03.240 to be, and especially am a priest's it's absolutely absolutely so. 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:09.760 So he was something destroyed in him, something broke inside him, 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:20.359 for sure, it was psychologically. It was absolutely Going to 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.280 Ukraine was truly one of the most intense trips of 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:27.560 our lives. And one we will never forget. But speaking 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.920 of trips, remember Art Nanny, the lead detective working in 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.200 the murder investigation, Well, he was on a trip to 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.920 Vegas ones and told us the story. We found pretty strange, 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.840 so described brought me a gift to go to Vegas. 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.120 But who did I run into? I ran into Petra 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:49.800 and one of the other monks. They were in Vegas 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:55.120 airport and Petra came up to me and said your name, 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.040 I said, ye, and you introduced himselves and said, what 0:22:58.080 --> 0:22:59.760 do you guys are doing over here? They're over there 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:01.760 game a matter of fact, I think he was sitting 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:06.760 on a slot machine. I returned to No. Six, So 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:10.640 it was almost five years after the fact. But I'm 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.640 looking at them that they were supposed to be monks, 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.920 so and they're going to Vegas. What happens the veggest 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.119 days in Vegas? But but I was It was just 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.520 kind of blew my mind that I have the monks 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:24.960 in Vegas, you know. And there wasn't a lot of 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:28.880 conversations because I didn't really care for pet or anyways. 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:30.879 I believe he lied to me from the get go, 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.000 and he could have been lied to me in them 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:41.000 particular point too. We found this story so odd we 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.720 decided to ask Father Lou, the priest and canon law expert, 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:47.639 who you heard from an episode seven, his opinion on 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:51.520 monks taking trips and gambling. Okay, so yeah, even monks 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.720 there allowed to go on vacations. They might have set 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:57.480 places where you know, the monks go, but because you 0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.720 become a monk, you don't cease to becoming human being. 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.080 All right, So when I want to go on vacation, 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.800 all right, I'm a master diver. All of my vacations 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.639 were diving vacations. I'd go to the Caribbean, I'd go 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:12.960 you know, the Pacific, I'd go diving. They were very, 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.760 very expensive. If I wanted to go on vacation, that's fine. 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:20.480 Cannon law allowed me a month's vacation a year, but 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:24.119 I had to pay for it. You know, the monks 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:28.280 in the monastery, are they entitled the vacation, absolutely, but 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:33.200 the monastery would have to pay for it. And it's 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:37.480 always with the understanding that what one did on vacation 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:44.879 was at least not antithetical to religious life. So I 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:50.800 could go on vacation and go diving. I could go 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:55.040 on vacation and maybe do some recreational gambling where it 0:24:55.119 --> 0:25:00.520 was legal. But I couldn't go on vacation and working 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:04.199 an abortion clinic, all right. Or I couldn't go on 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:08.600 vacation and involve myself in you know, the back room 0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:11.840 poker part or and gamble in a place that was 0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:15.280 going to be rated by the vice squad. But how 0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:19.160 do you reconcile I guess, uh, the vowel of poverty 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:23.240 with gambling or going to Vegas or staying at a 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:28.080 nice hotel, for example. Well, you know, poverty means I 0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:31.720 don't own anything. It doesn't mean that I have to 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.000 live a bereft life. If I take a vil poverty, 0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:36.760 it doesn't mean I have to live in a hovel 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:41.040 and wear underwear with holes in it. I'm allowed a 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:46.160 basic standard of life that it's commensurate with human dignity. 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:50.080 Staying in a nice hotel in Las Vegas. You know 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:55.879 where's that on the scale? Recreational gambling in Las Vegas 0:25:55.960 --> 0:26:01.000 is legal. It's not immoral, all right, We'll shoot a 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:05.080 monk gamble. I don't know, but I'm a Diosisan priest 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:08.199 and I used to go to Las Vegas. But that 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:11.639 was my money. Okay. You know, if I had a 0:26:11.640 --> 0:26:14.639 bad run at the tables, then I didn't buy cigarettes 0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:19.160 the next month, whereas the monk is is drawing from 0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:23.040 the common assets, and therefore there's got to be another 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:30.560 like level of awareness of his use. So am I 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:32.480 gonna sit in judgment as someone who goes to Las 0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:37.480 Vegas and stays in a decent hotel. Well, no, all right, 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.560 he didn't do anything illegal, He didn't do anything immoral 0:26:40.880 --> 0:26:43.639 on the face of it, and just staying in a 0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:48.199 nice room, there's nothing scandalous about that depends on the 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:53.320 local law and the local monastery. I control my finances. 0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:57.440 Those who belong to religious orders and take the vow 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:01.440 of poverty do not. I mean, if guy's got a 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:04.639 roll of quarters and goes to a quarter machine and 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:08.040 feeds them in one at a time, you know he 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:10.440