1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'sha. I was a 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: I had to do a little research for the Introduction's 12 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: holy shit, where do I? How do I introduce you? 13 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: But let me, let me, let me try. So today 14 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: we're really pleased and proud to introduce our agency colleague. 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: We're all formers, and we'd like to welcome Valerie Plane 16 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: to the show today. So, Valerie is a former CIA officer. 17 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: Unlike John or I, who were under official cover is diplomats, 18 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: Valerie was a non official cover officer. So as a 19 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: business person who doesn't get diplomatic community, if she gets 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: into trouble, I'm like John or Iwould. But there's so 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: much more to Valerie. She's You're the author of two 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: really fine spine novels, you've dabbled in politics, You've had 23 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: a Hollywood movie Fair Game with Sean Penn and Naomi Watts. 24 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 3: I want you to head up operations. It's his top priority. 25 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 4: You're in business with a terror organization. Who if you 26 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 4: get out of this car? I can't protect you. You 27 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 4: have no idea what we can and cannot do. 28 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: You are the center of a huge political scandal and 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: a victim of an actual conspiracy theory by the government. 30 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: You're also a mom and an activist for countering nuclear proliferation. 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 2: And maybe my most maybe the most impressive thing is 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: I'm actually a fan of the music group the Decembrists, 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: and they have a song Valerie Plane. 34 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: Oh Valerie play. 35 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 4: That really is your name. I would shout the same. 36 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: The world. 37 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 4: Dear battery play. So they made a wreck cover the 38 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 4: rest of you when I'll get the world. 39 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: Valerie. Welcome to the show. It's really good to have you. 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been a journey. 41 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 2: As I say, you've lived in interesting times whatever that 42 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: needs right. 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: Problem is, you probably didn't intend to live in interesting times, right. 44 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: You normally would have worked at CIA, had a career, 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: retired and quietly. 46 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 4: There, which my career goal was to be chief of 47 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 4: station somewhere, which is like you run your own private fiefdom. 48 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 4: And I thought that was the be all and the 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 4: end all, and I but I miss my career. I 50 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 4: love what I did. I was proud to deserve my 51 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: country and it ended before I was ready. 52 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: So the political scandal that you were the victim of 53 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: was huge, Bick twenty three some odd years ago. It 54 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: was a government conspiracy and you got and with the 55 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: victim of it. Could you take us through real quick 56 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: what happened and then what it's like to be like 57 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: a real victim of a conspiracy. 58 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 4: So I'll recap for your listeners to refresh your memory. 59 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 4: In July two thousand and three, we had invaded Iraq, 60 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 4: and we invaded in March. By July, no WMD had 61 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 4: been found, even though the Bush administration had promised, and 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 4: that was what they predicated the whole war on. We 63 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 4: don't want to see the smoking gun in the shape 64 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 4: of a mushroom cloud, if you recall from then National 65 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 4: Security Advisor Condoise Rice and my husband at the time, 66 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 4: Ambassador Joe Wilson, wrote an op ed piece in The 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 4: New York Times entitled What I Did not find in Africa, 68 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 4: and in it he went after the central premise that 69 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 4: the Bush administration had given the American public for launching 70 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 4: a war of choice into a rock, which was Saddam 71 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 4: Museana's nuclear weapons. He went right after the Bush administration, 72 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 4: although in today's terms is probably relatively mild, but he 73 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 4: had said that the intelligence had been cherry picked, that 74 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 4: the intelligence was fit around the policy, and so forth. 75 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 4: And in retaliation, a week later, conservative calumnist Robert Novak 76 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 4: wrote a column and in it he named me Valerie 77 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 4: plain talking about Joe Wilson and what he had said 78 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 4: in his op ed. And by the way, his wife, 79 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 4: Valerie Plame, works at the CIA. So I knew immediately 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 4: when Joe tossed the paper to me that morning, at 81 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 4: five point thirty in the morning, that everything rushes through 82 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 4: your head where your life is completely different than what 83 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 4: it had been five seconds before. I knew the assets 84 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 4: with whom I had worked were in jeopardy people even 85 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 4: that I knew, in an innocuous fashion overseas, they too 86 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 4: could come under suspicion. I knew that my covert career 87 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 4: was finished. Because this column was syndicated appeared everywhere it 88 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: was my true name, and of course I was worried 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: about my three year old twins who were asleep in 90 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 4: the room next door. Because not everyone thinks highly or 91 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 4: kindly of the CIA. So that launched this huge political 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 4: scandal that actually went on for years. What happened was 93 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 4: the agency referred it the leak of my name to 94 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 4: the Justice Department, and they started digging. I mean, I 95 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 4: never wanted to be a public person. Obviously, I worked 96 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 4: for the CIA. I was perfectly happy with my kudos 97 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 4: coming from my covert colleagues. And our lives were turned 98 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 4: upside down. It was really a dark time. I was 99 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 4: called a glorified secretary because I guess because I'm a 100 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 4: girl that was by a member of Congress. We were 101 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 4: accused and called traders and liars because this really went 102 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 4: against what the Bush administration had laid out as the 103 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 4: reasoning behind the invasion. It ended up, or at least 104 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 4: that chapter of it ended, in two thousand and seven, 105 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 4: when the Special Prosecutor Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald indicted and 106 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 4: then convicted the Vice President Chenese chief of staff Scooter 107 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 4: Libby on lying and. 108 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 2: At sat of Justice perjury. 109 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: Auction of Justice exactly perjury. I like lying because it's 110 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 4: just so much clear what's happened. But and I ultimately 111 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 4: resigned from the agency because I felt I had the 112 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 4: best job in operations. I didn't want to stay too 113 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 4: much had happened. The agency did not treat me particularly 114 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 4: well in the aftermath. I was totally radioactive. They didn't 115 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 4: know what to do with me. We moved from Washington, 116 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 4: d See where all this happened, to where we're in 117 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 4: New Mexico now. Joe Wilson has gone sadly, and then 118 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 4: I just began the next part and I, you know, 119 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 4: just how to figure it out. And I've done a 120 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: lot of interesting things. You play the hand you're dealt. 121 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 4: It's not what I wanted. I loved my career. I 122 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 4: felt working on weapons of mass destruction, in particular the 123 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 4: nuclear threat was meaningful and it was satisfying. But that's 124 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 4: not what I got to do. 125 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: I recall those times really well, and I didn't work 126 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: on Iraq or WMD. I was working on Russia things 127 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: and stuff at the time, and I think probably people 128 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: today have forgotten the intensity of it. So the administration 129 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: again went, like you said, went to war for war 130 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: of choice to get rid of Saddam Hussein, and it 131 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: wasn't going well, and so I think they wanted to 132 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: create a narrative of success. The president wasn'ting to run 133 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: for presidency again, and so anybody who against them to 134 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: try to say that things weren't going well like they 135 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: do today, and politics can get quite ugly, and public 136 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: servants usually are stay out of the political line, and 137 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: you got pulled into it. Scooter Libby was eventually convicted, 138 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: Bush commuted his sentence. Trump eventually pardoned him. 139 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: But there's a lot of. 140 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: People here, Novak, Carl Rove, Scooter Libby, Richard Armitage, Dick 141 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: Cheney who were involved in going after Did any of 142 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: them ever apologize, that's my question. 143 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 4: No, with the exception of Dick Armitage, who did not 144 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 4: call me up personally. But I saw in some interview 145 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 4: he's hemmed in had and acknowledge that's probably he shouldn't 146 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 4: have done that, which, of course not. He'd been around 147 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 4: Washington more than a minute and knew. I mean, he 148 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 4: was just all of them were banning about my name 149 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 4: and whether a person to be a covert or overt 150 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 4: status with the CIA. You don't share that like candy 151 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 4: with journalists, which Dick Armitage did. And typically I'm not 152 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 4: a conspiracy minded person, but it really does apply in 153 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: this case. The special Prosecutor Fitzgerald really wanted to go 154 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 4: after and he tried to get convictions on Karl Rove 155 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 4: and many others. There were many in the White House 156 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 4: that were determined to make Joe Wilson and Valerie Plain 157 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 4: look like, oh they're you know, they're just ridiculous. There's 158 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 4: the shiny object look over here, anything to distract from 159 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 4: the real disaster of what was going on in a rock. 160 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 4: So it was a there was a conspiracy, and I'm 161 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 4: I can only imagine that Fitzgerald wanted I don't know 162 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 4: ninety percent that he would be able to convict and 163 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 4: because Scooter Libby took the fall for all of them, 164 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: he couldn't quite gather what he needed to make that happen. 165 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: It's a long story, but I actually know Pat fitzghieald 166 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: one of the most guys with the highest integrity and 167 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: a really guy. He was voted one of the most 168 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: eligible bachelors in the US when I knew he wasn't 169 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: married yet, and he applied to get a rescue kitten, 170 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: and they turned him down because he was honest, and 171 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: he said, I work fifteen hours a day and I 172 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: sleep three times a week in my office. But so 173 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: on this show, we talk a lot about deconstructing and 174 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: debunking conspiracy theories, most of which are not true or 175 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: only have a German truth. But this is really different. 176 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 2: This isn't just a conspiracy that I'd like to drill 177 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 2: down with more against you, or that wasn't so much 178 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: against you. It was against your husband and you were 179 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: collateral damage. But there was other conspiracies involved in this. 180 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: And I just like to make a couple of statements 181 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: and hey, have you maybe run with it. The first 182 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: is that right after nine to eleven, within week, Vice 183 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 2: President Cheney was talking about going after a Rock, and 184 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: they had several different narratives. One of the narratives was 185 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: that Rock and al Qaeda were you know, technical term, 186 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: in cohoots with each other. The right and the CIA 187 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: and the intelligence community basically said there is no evidence 188 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: for this at all. But then they had the fallback 189 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: was he's getting weapons of mass destruction. But Cheney was 190 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: saying they have weapons before we'd even tried to investigate 191 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: it really right. And so one of the ways that 192 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: he claimed that they did was that they were getting 193 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 2: uranium yellow cake out of I think it was the 194 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: Zier And that's where your husband basically throw the bullshit 195 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: flag and said, I went and I investigated, they're not 196 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: getting it. And so he basically said, you're wrong, and 197 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: they came up with this office, the Office of Special 198 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 2: Plans under Doug Fight. There was all these neocons, Wolfowitz 199 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: and Richard Pearl and then this guy Machalabi who was 200 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 2: in a rocky and basically it was a conspiracy. They 201 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: created their own intelligence unit not to find out what happened. 202 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 2: They already knew what they wanted to say. They were 203 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: just looking for any evidence they could cherry pick to find. 204 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: So I was wondering if you could just talk about 205 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: how you view the conspiracies that brought us into this 206 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 2: horrific war that costs thousands of American lives and hundreds 207 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: of thousands of Iraqi lives and cost me several years 208 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: of my life in Iraq later. 209 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 4: Sure, let's start at the beginning. Nine to eleven happens, 210 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 4: and we know within a matter of a week ten 211 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 4: days Cheney is at Camp David, and he's unfolding a 212 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 4: map of Iraq, saying, there's not that many targets in Afghanistan, 213 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 4: but in Iraq. Now you know there's something there. And 214 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 4: we know that the neocons would have been in the 215 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 4: wilderness for some years had prepared what is it called 216 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 4: Blueprint for American Century, Proposal for American Century. They had 217 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 4: put this together their dog, this manifesto in nineteen ninety eight, 218 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 4: and it called for a horrific sort of attack or 219 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 4: some sort of precipitating event, to thereby launch American might 220 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: and military power in ways to remake the world in 221 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: the ways they thought it should be. And lo and behold, 222 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 4: nine to eleven happens. So now the neocons are in power, 223 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 4: and they only have to take that proposal off the shelf, 224 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 4: blow off the dust, and get to work. I get asked, 225 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 4: why do we go to war with the rock. I 226 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 4: think it is best explained as a waterfall of events, 227 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 4: cascading events. You have neocons in power, you have a 228 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 4: president who's not terribly comfortable in the whole foreign realm 229 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 4: of his presidency, having just been to China when his 230 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 4: dad was ambassador there. He's relying very heavily upon a 231 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 4: vice president who really wanted to see the so called 232 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 4: unitary executive theory that is bolstering the executive power. And 233 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 4: of course he came up with this one percent doctrine. 234 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 4: If there's even a one percent chance that there's some 235 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 4: sort of harm to come to the United States, we're 236 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 4: gonna So all these things come together, we pivot from Afghanistan. 237 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 4: We could have a whole show on what that caused, 238 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 4: but we don't have time. So we quickly begin beating 239 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: the war drums for a rock and why they wanted 240 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 4: to remake the Middle East in a much more pliable 241 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 4: way for American and Israeli ambitions. And you spoke about Cheney, 242 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 4: so talk about a conspiracy. Another word for it is 243 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 4: circular reporting. He would leak something to whether it's Judith Miller, 244 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 4: who had great real estate on the front of the 245 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 4: New York Times, or any of these others. Cheney would 246 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 4: then go and meet the press and go just in 247 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: Sunday's paper, they talk about whatever. A lot of it 248 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 4: was these aluminum tubes, which he claimed were being used 249 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 4: as centrifuges to build up a rocks presumed nuclear program, 250 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: and the agency did get sucked in. As you know, 251 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,479 Speaker 4: it was highly, highly unusual for anyone from any administration 252 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 4: to cross the Potomac River and come to CIA headquarters 253 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 4: and all of a sudden, all of a sudden, you've 254 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 4: got Scooter Libby and his little minions showing up a 255 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 4: lot more talking to analysts. Now, I do understand their 256 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 4: heightened concern. Of course, we all were after nine to 257 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 4: eleven the world had changed drastically and we didn't know 258 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 4: what the hell was going on. Frankly, but they also 259 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 4: were looking back to the early nineties. If you recall, 260 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 4: Saddam Hussein's son in law had defected, went to Jordan. 261 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 4: We debriefed him and were like, oh my god, we 262 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 4: had no idea rock had been so far advanced in 263 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 4: their nuclear programs. Stupidly, the son in law, red Effects, 264 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 4: goes back and he shop by Sudamasain. But that's an aside. 265 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 4: So there was a heightened sense of we really don't 266 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 4: know what's going on. So when I show up on 267 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 4: the IRAQ D desk and there's clearly the whole machinery 268 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 4: of state is looking to focus on a rock, what 269 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 4: we had was nothing because saddamusin had kicked out the 270 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 4: UN Weapons Inspectors in nineteen ninety eight. We didn't have 271 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: a station there, we didn't have an embassy, so we 272 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 4: had to start at zero in building up assets and 273 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 4: starting combing the world to see what did we know 274 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 4: about saddamis aid. Now, when Joe Wilson went to Niger 275 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 4: to investigate these reports of five hundred tons of yellow 276 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 4: cake uranium that allegedly had been shipped from Nize to 277 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 4: a Raq If that had proven to be true, that 278 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 4: would have been significant because clearly Saddam Ussein was seeking 279 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 4: to reconstitute his nuclear program. But Joe went to Nizer 280 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 4: determined this is all totally bogus. And he wasn't the 281 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 4: only one. There were a lot of other The ambassador 282 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 4: there forced our general all things like, this is totally bogus. 283 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 4: Not but boy, the administration latched on to that, and 284 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 4: in fact, the infamous now sixteen words that appeared in 285 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 4: George Bush's stated the Union Address of January two thousand 286 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 4: and three, before we went to war, references significant quantities 287 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: of uranium. 288 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: The British government has learned the Saddam Hussein recently sought 289 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: significant quantities of uranium from Africa. 290 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 4: So all this is this pot is stirring. The pot 291 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 4: is stirring, and we go to war and by the 292 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 4: time Joe Wilson writes his outbed piece, we hadn't found 293 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 4: any WMD, not nothing. The only thing that was happening 294 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 4: was the Bagdad Museum, which held countless precious ancient artifacts, 295 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 4: was being looted, and the insurgency was ramping up. And 296 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: I think the reason it all blew up then. I 297 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 4: don't know, this is just my speculation, but at that 298 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 4: particular moment in time, the Bush administration was feeling a 299 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 4: little bit anxious about all their things that they had 300 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 4: said we were going to find. We hadn't found anything. 301 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 4: And here comes along this ambassador. He had been in 302 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 4: a rock during the First Golf War, had dealt with Sudama, 303 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 4: Zane Tarika's Ease and the rest of the gang. And 304 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 4: he's like, no, this is you know, you're it's not 305 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 4: the best idea we had. And furthermore, your intelligence is 306 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 4: totally cooked. And it just hit at a moment in 307 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 4: time that Rove Cheney the rest of them were feeling 308 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 4: a little apprehensive, and so they went into overdrive. I 309 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 4: don't think this is all planned out. It's not, but 310 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 4: they quickly had to turn it and make it seem 311 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: that Joe Wilson and Valerie Plane were ridiculous. They were traders, 312 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 4: they were liars. She works with the CIA, so you 313 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 4: can't trust her all this, and it just went off 314 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 4: from there. 315 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: That's possible a second, we'll be right back. 316 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: When your husband puts the up edd the New York 317 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: Times at a time where they are politically feeling vulnerable 318 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: because their policy is not going so well and there's 319 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: concern that maybe there isn't weapons of mass destruction, which 320 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: was the reason for going to war. Your name is leaked. 321 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: It's becomes a big sort of issue. People are already saying, hey, 322 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: that's wrong. But then what they did, I think go 323 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: back after you too. Valerie clearly sent her husband. She 324 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: worked for the CIA, and so the CIA, through Valerie 325 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: sent her husband in Nigier to embarrass the administration. 326 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 4: Yeah. I you know, my mother has gone now, but 327 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 4: she was around then, and bless her heart, she's like, 328 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 4: why would they say that that's not true? You know? 329 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 4: I know, Mom. A year before Joe Writer's up ed piece, 330 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 4: it was when he had gone to Niger and investigated this. 331 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 4: It's not as though we had some sort of crystal 332 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 4: ball to understand that we were going to go to 333 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 4: war for sure, and how can we best discredit the 334 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 4: Bush administration? Joe and I were both although we were 335 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 4: socially liberal, and it doesn't matter how we voted. The 336 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 4: fact is, you serve as as you well know, when 337 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 4: you're overseas, you serve as an American. You don't serve 338 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 4: as a Republican or a Democrat. Joe had served in 339 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 4: senior positions under both type of administrations, and it was 340 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 4: clearly just such a smear job in their attempt to 341 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 4: detract or redirect the attention of the media and the 342 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 4: failure of the policy. 343 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: A number of people were involved, so there was a conspiracy. 344 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: They said around and said, okay, we've got to make 345 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 2: him look bad, and then somehow your name come up 346 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: as well. Right they did. They said, they smeared you both, 347 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: because we talk a lot about conspiracies, but we don't 348 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: often talk about people who are the victims of it, 349 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 2: who suffer from It's the human cost of this. 350 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 4: My bit best to saying falling down Alice's rabbit hole, 351 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 4: where white is black and black as white. The people 352 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 4: that they're talking about, Joe Wilson and Valerie playing in 353 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 4: the media on the radio, TV, the newspapers. They have 354 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 4: nothing to do with us in our character is so 355 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 4: distorting and disabled and destabilizing, particularly given my career which 356 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 4: was covert until that moment. And yeah, it was really dark. 357 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 4: We had the entire machinery of the state and which 358 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 4: is significant behind the notion that they needed to crush us. 359 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 4: So Joe in his nature, he's he's He was not 360 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 4: a typical diplomat, right. He was rather belligerent and a 361 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 4: flamboyant character, and he went out and he was very public, 362 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 4: and I was just cringey. I was really in shock. 363 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 4: I didn't know quite what to do. And furthermore, I 364 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 4: was still working for the agency, so I couldn't go 365 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 4: on meet the press and talk about it, and the 366 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 4: agency was not giving me any guidance. I literally have 367 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 4: in the entire time from two thousand and three until 368 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 4: I stepped away in two thousand and seven, the total 369 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 4: amount of time I had with any senior headquarters officer 370 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 4: was ten minutes with Jim Patt. And if you know Jim, 371 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 4: he spoke nine of those minutes. And you know, look, 372 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 4: I'm a big girl. I don't need someone to hold 373 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 4: my hand. But you would think that there were some 374 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 4: equities that we needed to mutually protect. Yes, there were 375 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 4: death threats. I will tell you. I want to say 376 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 4: in two thousand and four is everything the political environments 377 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 4: heating up along with the presidential election and my address 378 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 4: in Washington, d C. They found targeting papers in someone 379 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 4: an American Al Qaeda person, right, Remember that was a 380 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 4: thing for a while. And I went to CIA security 381 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 4: and I said, look, my security is one thing, but 382 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 4: I've got small children at home, and I requested, just 383 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 4: through that period to have some extra security. The other ones, 384 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: by the way, other ones that were targeted in that 385 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 4: particular batch of intelligence were George Tenant, John Ashcroft. They 386 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 4: all enjoyed twenty four to seven security protection. Anyway, the 387 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 4: security people thought about it and then said, no, we're not, No, 388 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 4: we're not. You know how the agency likes to say, oh, 389 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 4: we're all a family, we're all in it together. Well, 390 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 4: and that was not my experience. I was very much alone. 391 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 4: And it was a thing that went on and onth Miller, 392 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 4: the New York Times reporter, she was tossed in jail 393 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 4: for a couple months because she refused to give up 394 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 4: her sources, as though she's in some priestly class. I 395 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 4: literally they write whole courses around that First Amendment question 396 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 4: and so forth. So I have a certain bias for 397 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 4: sure on that. Living through that changed us. It was, 398 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 4: and of course you become more cynical. You don't read 399 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 4: the media as you did before. In the personal toll 400 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 4: was profound, and I would say the most for me, 401 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 4: but just on the personal side of things. And I know, 402 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 4: of course thousands of US servicemen and women lost their 403 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 4: lives in Afghanistan, and I rock, so I'm not comparing 404 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 4: it to that, but I had small children. I will 405 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 4: never get back those years of dealing with the crazy shit. 406 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: Be back in a room. 407 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm really surprised at the fact that the agency, for 408 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: their own purposes, wouldn't want to engage with you more 409 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: to protect it. But can you give us a little 410 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: bit more background about yourself, how you got to the CIA, 411 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: and what you did in the CIA that you can 412 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: talk about before your whole life change and became public. 413 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 4: I was recruited very young. My dad was a career 414 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 4: Air Force, who was a colonel fought More War two. 415 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 4: My brother was a marine in Vietnam. He was wounded there. 416 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 4: So I was drawn to this idea of public service. 417 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 4: And when I got in it was very clear the 418 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 4: Soviets were the bad guys, and you know, the United 419 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 4: States are the good guys. And I thought it was 420 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: a lot more interesting than what most of my friends 421 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 4: were doing. To be honest, you go through the training 422 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 4: and turned out I was at it, and I liked it, 423 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 4: and I liked the people with whom I was working. 424 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 4: So I did my different tours abroad, primarily in Europe. 425 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 4: Then I really began to focus on what had been 426 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 4: stood up in the mid nineties, the kind of proliferation division. 427 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 4: It came along, frankly, just in the nick of time, 428 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 4: because the agency had been really at loose ends. The 429 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 4: budgets were going down, remember there was the piece dividend. 430 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 4: We're like, oh, let we won, let's all just go home. 431 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 4: The wall came down. But within a few years it 432 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 4: was clear that the interception of terrorism in WMD was 433 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 4: a real national security problem. So I was delighted to 434 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 4: be able to work on that as I could. So 435 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 4: I really I love what I did, and that's that 436 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,959 Speaker 4: was as as my father said, why are they not 437 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 4: telling their truth? I was working on what the agency, 438 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 4: or more importantly, what the minister duration said was their priority, 439 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 4: what they cared about fail. 440 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 2: What's your sense now, twenty five years later when you 441 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 2: look at like conspiracy theories that are completely without merit, 442 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: like the twenty twenty election was stolen, right? Or yeah, yeah, 443 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 2: we were conspiracy theories not only rife, but their Laura 444 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: Lumer goes in with the conspiracy theory right and gets 445 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: the head of the NSA fired, right, and. 446 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 4: Some crazy shit there. I think that's the technical term. 447 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 4: I think that we are living in a time where 448 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 4: critical thought is no longer understood or applied. Of course, 449 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 4: we're deeply polarized as a nation. Everyone's in their own foxhole, 450 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 4: and it's an echo chamber of what you want to 451 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 4: hear because it's very satisfying to have your world views validated. 452 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: Let me gently push back on that just a little bit, 453 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: and that we're all in our own foxholes, right, we 454 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 2: all watch what happened on January sixth. It was not 455 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: a parade of love. It was a violent incident. There's 456 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 2: no evidence that twenty twenty election was stolen, right, But 457 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: there is a set of fis and it's really one 458 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: side more than the other. 459 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 4: Now I agree with you that said, here's what's happening. 460 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 4: For instance, where we are right now, we're in the 461 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 4: throes of the early days of the tariffs. We don't 462 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 4: know where this is going to go. If you read 463 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: the New York Times, of Wall Street Journal or other 464 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 4: mainstream lamestream media, you will see that the stock market 465 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 4: is crashing. If you go on Fox News or Newsmax 466 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 4: or any of the others on the right, the top 467 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 4: story is some blonde girl got kidnapped or something that 468 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 4: you know, Hunter Biden has done. And so we are 469 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 4: inhabiting very different universes. 470 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: So you talked a little bit about what it was 471 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: like right then and you know, threats and dealing with 472 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: your kids. Tell us a little bit about, you know, 473 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: the rest of your lifew this impacted it and how 474 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: you've gotten past it if you. 475 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: Have the truth is it was I wasn't shocked for 476 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 4: a few years, and it took me a while to 477 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 4: find my footing again. And it didn't really happen for 478 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 4: me because I was like, what am I gonna do, 479 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 4: send out a resume, what do I put? How do 480 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 4: I find another job? At the time, I was still 481 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 4: really young. I'm not ready to golf. So what happened 482 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 4: was in two thousand and nine I was contacted by 483 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 4: the producers who did an Inconvenient Truth Al Gore movie 484 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 4: on climate change, and they wanted to do for the 485 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 4: nuclear threat what they had done for climate change, and 486 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 4: they made a documentary count Down to Zero, and I 487 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 4: helped narrate it and was very much involved. Various groups 488 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 4: have been focused on acquiring weapons of mass destruction, in 489 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 4: particular nuclear weapons. 490 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 3: All the black market seizures that I'm aware of were. 491 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 4: Caught luck at a Russian naval base in the early 492 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 4: nineteen nineties. 493 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 3: Potatoes reguarded better, and. 494 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 4: That was a light bulb moment for me. I thought, oh, 495 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 4: I can actually still advocate for this that I used 496 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 4: to do covertly in a way that was more overt 497 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 4: and it's meaningful to me. So that started it. So 498 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 4: I did write my memoir Fair Game, which was a 499 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 4: horrible experience because I had to sue the agency they 500 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 4: wanted they blacked out, you know, So like I didn't 501 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 4: exist until two thousand and three when my husband's article 502 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 4: came out. Of course we all as signed secrecy agreements. 503 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 4: I would show off my right arm before I would 504 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 4: ever reveal classified information. But I wasn't. I was talking 505 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 4: about my story and it wasn't particularly flattering to the agency, 506 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 4: but you know, it was the truth. It was the 507 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 4: truth classified not classified, but they so they made it 508 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 4: very difficult. So then I wrote these two spy thrillers, 509 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 4: all which is, you know, you can tell a lot 510 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: more truth in fiction sometimes, So that was fun. And 511 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 4: then in twenty nineteen I ran for Congress in northern 512 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 4: New Mexico and I lost in the primary, and I'm 513 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 4: can I tell you how happy I am? 514 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: I mean, your ad was good, though, Yeah, it was 515 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: a great It was a good ad through the car 516 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: and stuff. 517 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 4: Here. I come from Ukrainian Jewish immigrants. 518 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 3: Now I'm running for Congress because we're running backwards on 519 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 3: national security, healthcare, and women's rights. 520 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, and which of course I learned of 521 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 4: the farm right who didn't learn that I did? They 522 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 4: did about forty takes before they got one. That was 523 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 4: you know, So I spent one all day doing jay terms, 524 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 4: but no, I ran for Congress with an open heart right. 525 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 4: I wanted to serve my country again, and I thought, 526 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 4: I can do this job. I can do this and 527 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 4: do this well. But I am so happy now not 528 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 4: to be in Congress because it is utterly dysfunctional. There's 529 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 4: always been bad, but it's just gotten worse. And so 530 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 4: now I still do a lot of speaking, I do 531 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 4: a lot of writing, and I do mentor a lot 532 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 4: of young people. You can imagine, probably like yourselves, get 533 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 4: a lot of people. Oh, my nephew was thinking about 534 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 4: joining the CIA, can you talk to him? And I'm 535 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 4: sorry to say that the last one I spoke to, 536 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 4: a really bright, wonderful young man who just would have 537 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 4: been amazing. For the first time, I had to say, 538 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 4: don't do it, not now, And it kills me because 539 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 4: we need that fresh blood smart and why given what 540 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 4: has just happened through DOGE and how humiliating the whole experiences, 541 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 4: who wants to join. 542 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: Well, and they're firing young people that you go through 543 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: the trending, you go through all of the polygrass background 544 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: check security, you go through all the training, you move 545 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: to Washington, you're spending money, and then they fire you 546 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: like two years in like it's. 547 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 4: No, then not only fire you, but they send your 548 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 4: name with your last initial in open channels from the 549 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 4: agency to the White House. OPM, Yeah, OPM whatever. 550 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 2: You're also involved with nuclear proliferation stuff, right. One of 551 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: the concerns is with this administration I think based off 552 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: of a huge conspiracy or conspiracy theories certainly behind this. 553 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: With NATO falling apart, in our alliances falling apart, what 554 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: is to keep some of our allies from saying if 555 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: we don't have the nuclear umbrella Poland or Ukraine which 556 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: gave up its nuclear weapons right because it got a 557 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: guarantee from US in the Russians that they would have 558 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,239 Speaker 2: their territorial integrity, or Saudi Arabia, why would you not 559 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 2: want nuclear weapons? 560 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 4: Yeah? All the guardrails are gone. The New Start Treaty 561 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 4: is set to expire next year, which will not be revalidated. Yeah, 562 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 4: we are entering a new arms race. I was on 563 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 4: the board and continue to support the Plowshares Fund. They 564 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 4: do great work in that space, but a lot of 565 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,760 Speaker 4: the money has just drained out of the whole arms 566 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 4: control field, very little money. The sole authority for your 567 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 4: listeners is the protocol, whereby only one human being. The 568 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 4: president of the United States has the authority to launch 569 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 4: offensive nuclear weapons or defensive sorry both. And this comes 570 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 4: out of the Cold War when we were afraid of 571 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 4: a bolt out of the blue from the Soviet Union. 572 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 4: You don't want to convene a committee as missiles are incoming. 573 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 4: I get that, but that was really in fact overplayed anyway, 574 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 4: So right now we have a whether Biden, who no 575 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 4: doubt was compromised by his age, or are current president 576 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 4: who no doubt is compromised by his volatility. I don't 577 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 4: like and it's so antithetical to democracy to have just 578 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 4: one person make this a horrific decision of whether to 579 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 4: launch a nuclear weapon potentially to kill millions. So I 580 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 4: was working quite a bit on that. Some legislation has 581 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 4: been put forward, but right now things are in such chaos. 582 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 4: It's just poo flinging chaos monkeys everywhere that you know 583 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 4: you can you cannot really have sober reasonable debate on this, 584 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 4: and I don't think there should be much of a 585 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 4: debate because on it's just madness. 586 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 2: The guy listening to Laura Lumer has his finger on 587 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: the button. People need to think about that. 588 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 4: Imagine this young woman who's an influencer, comes in and 589 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 4: starts saying who the President needs to fire? 590 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: This I mean thirty one year old conspiracy theory woman 591 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: who said that nine to eleven was an inside job. 592 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: She comes into the White House and says, fire these people, 593 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: to include the head of the National Security Agency, and 594 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: people like radcliffeo runs a CIA, and Gaber who runs 595 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: a DNI, and Walls who runs an air security agency. 596 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: Just take it and allow their own people to be fired. 597 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: They're totally neutered. They have no authority over their own organizations. 598 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: How can they lead their people when these crazies can 599 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: come in and there's nothing they can do. They can't 600 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: protect their own people. 601 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 4: I know, I think where it leaves us, it's obvious 602 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 4: we are extremely vulnerable. We have pissed off pretty much 603 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 4: everyone other than Putin, and he'll just take advantage of us. 604 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 2: You run a spy cruise, so if people want to 605 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 2: an ostrich hole to stick their head into, just. 606 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 4: Broth on fire, why not go on a cruise. Let 607 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 4: me tell you a little bit about it. I've been 608 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 4: running for the last couple of years hosting spy slizes 609 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 4: and nukes conferences in Santa Fe and it was hugely popular, 610 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 4: so we decided year to do a Mediterranean cruise. It's 611 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 4: August thirtieth to September seventh. It's an amazing itinerary from 612 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 4: Malta to Naples, ephesis Rome. It's on the Celebrity line 613 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 4: and it's their newest ship, and I have to say 614 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 4: our lineup is just amazing. I have John Amendez, former 615 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 4: head of Disguise. She and her husband Tony wrote the 616 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 4: book that Argo was based on Michael Morrell former director 617 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 4: Mark Polymaropolis. So I guess you've had on your podcast too, 618 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 4: Raleigh Flynn, Doug Wise. The Days at Sea will do 619 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 4: a couple hours of programming in the morning, but when 620 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 4: we're in ports, say Malta, we'll have excursions around built 621 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 4: around espionage and what happened there. So if your listeners 622 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 4: are interested, go to Spiesliesanukes dot com and all the 623 00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 4: information on the cruise is there. 624 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: I did a cool operation in Malta once, I can't 625 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 2: talk about it. 626 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: He's trying to get on. He's trying to get on 627 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: the cruise. Don't fall for it. Well, listen, we don't 628 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: want to take up too much to your time. 629 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 2: Valerie. 630 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: We as former professionals who worked in the same place 631 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: as you. Feel terrible that you got dragged into this 632 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: public mosh pit, and we're also very pleased that you've 633 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: been able to come out of it and have such 634 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: a successful professional career afterward. 635 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, such a pleasure. You guys run a great podcast, 636 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 4: and I'm delighted to be one of your guests today. 637 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: Really short 638 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 3: Shout sight