Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show Conspiracy Realist. We have a
Speaker 1: classic episode for you, guys. Have you ever tried astral projection?
Speaker 2: I have not, but I do have a good buddy
Speaker 2: who is working on a documentary about astrophysics and the
Speaker 2: nature of existence, and he himself has tried astral projection,
Speaker 2: and he is the kind of a feature. He's the
Speaker 2: host of the series and tells his own story about
Speaker 2: believing and experiencing that very thing.
Speaker 3: Astral projection is awesome. Remote viewing, in my opinion, is
Speaker 3: just as awesome. I was going to say almost awesomer.
Speaker 3: Do listen to another episode that you can find in
Speaker 3: our feed. It's titled Remote Viewing Session May twenty second,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four. It's super great because the person I
Speaker 3: don't think I'm in this interview, guys, but the person
Speaker 3: that you were talking to, Russell Targ, fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I appreciate you. I appreciate you recommending our
Speaker 1: astral projection or remote viewing recreation, right. And so in
Speaker 1: tonight's interview, we speak with this guy named Russell Targ,
Speaker 1: a physicist and author, the creator of a film called
Speaker 1: Third Eye Spies. And this is Dare I say, an
Speaker 1: on the ground reporting of astral projection. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: all right, we'll keep it.
Speaker 4: Let's roll it.
Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 5: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Nola.
Speaker 1: Our good friend and compatriot Matt Frederick is on adventures today,
Speaker 1: but we will have someone filling in. You could say,
Speaker 1: they call me Ben. We are joined with our super producer,
Speaker 1: Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you. You
Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want
Speaker 1: you to know.
Speaker 4: A very trippy episode.
Speaker 2: This episode is a trippy treat and it is something
Speaker 2: that's been a long time in the worst because we've talked.
Speaker 2: We danced around this subject for years back as far
Speaker 2: as the videos.
Speaker 1: I don't know if we danced around is there. Matt
Speaker 1: and I did this.
Speaker 2: Funny that time, you know, And that's why I was
Speaker 2: such a bummer that Matt couldn't be here today, because
Speaker 2: this is something that's very near and dear to him.
Speaker 4: So I hope we did him proud with what you're
Speaker 4: about to hear.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, we are joined today by a very
Speaker 1: special guest, the physicist, parapsychologist, and pioneer in the field
Speaker 1: of remote viewing, Russell Targ. And Russell Harg has been
Speaker 1: instrumental in the way that we not just as people
Speaker 1: but as governments understand the phenomenon they call remote viewing.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: He's perhaps best known in terms of this work for
Speaker 1: his time with Stanford Research Institute.
Speaker 2: Which I believe was endowed by Stanford University and then
Speaker 2: spun off into a completely independent entity in the early seventies.
Speaker 2: Targ got his start in the hard science of lasers
Speaker 2: and then parlay that fascination with research and optics, and honestly,
Speaker 2: it was an experiential thing for him to start because
Speaker 2: of his difficulties with his own vision, and he sort
Speaker 2: of took that and turned it into this pursuit, lifelong
Speaker 2: pursuit of being able to project yourself out of yourself
Speaker 2: and being able to teach people how to do this.
Speaker 2: And this is not a conspiracy theory. Dare we say
Speaker 2: there's aspect of this that isn't a conspiracy at all.
Speaker 2: This has been declassified. Was a thing the CIA participate
Speaker 2: and fund it actively.
Speaker 1: Long time listeners, you will be familiar with many of
Speaker 1: the players involved and certainly a lot of the phenomenon involved.
Speaker 1: But today we are going directly to the source. We
Speaker 1: recently had a chance to sit down with Russell Targ ourselves, well,
Speaker 1: sit down in the podcast sense and get a first
Speaker 1: hand description of the evolution of SRI, the nuts and
Speaker 1: bolts of remote viewing research, and possibly i'll look into
Speaker 1: the future, although we say there's not much of a difference.
Speaker 2: And Russell Tag was also instrumental in the production of
Speaker 2: a film that is out now called Third Eye Spies
Speaker 2: that goes into the history of his work with the CIA.
Speaker 2: Some mysteries along the way that are almost outside of
Speaker 2: the scope of this conversation, but I think you'll see
Speaker 2: them in future episodes and more.
Speaker 1: And so, without further Ado, Russell Targ, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time to come on the show
Speaker 1: with us today. I believe one of the first questions
Speaker 1: that our audience will have will be a biographical or
Speaker 1: personal question. You are a renowned physicist, a parapsychologist, and
Speaker 1: an author, and originally you worked specifically with applications for
Speaker 1: laser technology to our audience. The idea of working in
Speaker 1: that field and the idea of exploring what we would
Speaker 1: today call ESP or remote viewing. They seem like, at
Speaker 1: first glance, two very very different things. Could you tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what inspired your exploration and
Speaker 1: experimentation with remote viewing.
Speaker 6: In the beginning, I was a very verly defective person.
Speaker 6: My vision has lifelong been terrible, so I was always
Speaker 6: doing things that could improve my vision, and I got
Speaker 6: very interested in optics, which is a natural thing for
Speaker 6: a visually handicapped person to do. So through that I
Speaker 6: became what we could call a pioneer in the development
Speaker 6: of the laser. I was working on lasers before there
Speaker 6: were any lasers, so I pursued that experiments with lasers
Speaker 6: laser communication, and I wound up building an ultra high
Speaker 6: power laser. But all my life I was aware the
Speaker 6: psychic abilities were present because as a kid I was
Speaker 6: interested in magic and did pretend magic on the stage.
Speaker 6: And what every magician will tell you, I've talked to Melbourn,
Speaker 6: Christopher and the Great Crescin and they said, oh, yes,
Speaker 6: when we're on the stage with the lights in our eyes,
Speaker 6: we get to supplement our act with whatever ESP comes
Speaker 6: our way, and I had that experience also, so I
Speaker 6: had the idea while I was doing laser work that
Speaker 6: one of these days I would make a transition into
Speaker 6: ESP work because I was confident that I could teach
Speaker 6: people how to get in touch with their psychic abilities.
Speaker 6: So in nineteen seventy two, my laser customer invited me
Speaker 6: to a conference on speculative technology off the shore of Virginia,
Speaker 6: and at that meeting I had a serendipet his run
Speaker 6: in with Werner von Brown, Jim Fletcher, who was the
Speaker 6: administrator of all of NASA, and Edgar Mitchell, who the
Speaker 6: astronaut who just came to Earth. And together with my
Speaker 6: three new friends, we outlined what a program investigating psychic
Speaker 6: abilities would be and I took that to Stanford Research Institute.
Speaker 6: So my first do for ESP research was to build
Speaker 6: an ESP teaching machine. And it just happens that that
Speaker 6: machine I built is now available of a free application
Speaker 6: called ESP Trainer for your iPhone. So I got in
Speaker 6: business investigating psychic abilities through my earlier development of an
Speaker 6: ESP teaching machine, and together with support of NASA and
Speaker 6: also the CIA, we were often running at Stanford because
Speaker 6: I had built laser stuff for the CIA as well,
Speaker 6: so I had some credentials with NASA and with the CIA,
Speaker 6: so I could propose this thought out, seeming program. And
Speaker 6: they knew that I was a scientist who was already
Speaker 6: able to do hard stuff and make it work, so
Speaker 6: they gave us a small amount of money to start
Speaker 6: a program at Stanford Research Institute.
Speaker 4: But so I have a question.
Speaker 2: So for something like ES that even today sort of
Speaker 2: exists for many in the speculative realm, where it's difficult
Speaker 2: to prove, how do you take something like that, especially
Speaker 2: when it involves funding and research dollars and eventually government,
Speaker 2: And how do you prove something that to many people
Speaker 2: is looked at as pseudoscience or as the supernatural.
Speaker 6: Well, there's several ways to do that. One of the
Speaker 6: ways I had, and I've written quite a number of
Speaker 6: books describing how ESP worked, what the theory might be,
Speaker 6: how you can learn to do it, And of course
Speaker 6: that's not very efficacious. So I decided five years ago
Speaker 6: to create a film making use of all the previously
Speaker 6: top secret material we had. So I made a film
Speaker 6: called Third Eye Spies, which shows people doing psychic abilities
Speaker 6: looking for Soviet weapons factories, missing hostages, Russian submarines. And
Speaker 6: the thing that makes our film unique, make it an event,
Speaker 6: is that we have on camera the CIA contract monitors
Speaker 6: who oversaw our program. So we have as CIA scientist
Speaker 6: Ken Kress, who is a lifelong physicist, and Kit Green,
Speaker 6: who was the director of the Life Science Division at
Speaker 6: the CIA, and these two distinguished elder CIA operatives are
Speaker 6: on camera saying, yes, we were polygraphed and we worked
Speaker 6: with targ and what he said in this film is true.
Speaker 6: It really happened. So unlike other films talking about ESP,
Speaker 6: where you have the researchers or the psychics, here we
Speaker 6: have the guys who paid for it. And you know,
Speaker 6: the CIA is not easily amused. And we have these
Speaker 6: two distinguished CIA operators on camera looking into the camera
Speaker 6: and said it might be hard to believe, but we
Speaker 6: were there and it really happened. So that's one way
Speaker 6: endeavor to convince people that ESP is real. The other
Speaker 6: way is to show them how to do it. So
Speaker 6: very often we were trying to get money from the
Speaker 6: government to do different kinds of things, and a government
Speaker 6: scientist will come to our laboratory and say, well, we
Speaker 6: will show can you show me what you guys are doing?
Speaker 6: And one instance like this, we had a visit from
Speaker 6: the Undersecretary Defense, Walter Labert, who the second to the
Speaker 6: Secretary Defense at that time. Laberge came in his helicopter
Speaker 6: clearing our parking lot and he said, okay, can you
Speaker 6: show me something psychic. We've been supporting you. Now, how
Speaker 6: does this work? And I said, certainly I can, sir. Well,
Speaker 6: I'll just show you how to do it, which is
Speaker 6: what I do. People come to the lab they want
Speaker 6: to learn how to dop, and I show them how
Speaker 6: to do remote viewing. So I said, the way we
Speaker 6: do this is your adjutant will go hide someplace with
Speaker 6: my partner help put off. I'll go with some random
Speaker 6: location in the San Francisco Bay area, and that's the target.
Speaker 6: They've gone, some mystery spot, and I will sit with you, sir,
Speaker 6: and I of course have no idea where they've gone,
Speaker 6: but I will show you the moves to quiet your
Speaker 6: mind and look for surprising images to pop into your awareness,
Speaker 6: and then you will make a drawing of those surprising images.
Speaker 6: And that's what we do. So he said, okay, if
Speaker 6: you tell me what to do that. I can do that.
Speaker 6: It's a very senior scientist accustom to being successful. And
Speaker 6: I said, all right, they're at their place, now start drawing.
Speaker 6: And you see, you can't be wrong, doctor Leberg, because
Speaker 6: only you know what your images are. And I just
Speaker 6: want you to make a drawing of what shows up
Speaker 6: in your awareness. That's surprising. And he drew a kind
Speaker 6: of brick courtyard, circular courtyard with a circular fountain in
Speaker 6: the middle, all bricks all the way around, all bricks,
Speaker 6: so forth with fountain, and he said, that's all I got,
Speaker 6: the circular arrays of tiers of bricks. I said, well,
Speaker 6: that's fine, that's pretty surprising. And they came back and
Speaker 6: then the four of us, the beers and me and
Speaker 6: the two travelers went to the place, which was a
Speaker 6: art center quite a distant from Sri and he got
Speaker 6: to see in real life what he had drawn, and
Speaker 6: he said, well, that's pretty impressive. And I didn't even
Speaker 6: believe in this stuff. So what we know is the
Speaker 6: remote viewing is an ability we all have to quiet
Speaker 6: our minds and describe and experience what's going on in
Speaker 6: a distance location. And people can have that experience and
Speaker 6: learn to quiet their minds and learn to do that.
Speaker 6: And one of the most interesting things I know is
Speaker 6: that remote viewing is a non local ability. Like much
Speaker 6: in modern science, nonlocality is a very hot topic pertaining
Speaker 6: particularly when when photons or electrons are separated at birth,
Speaker 6: they remain attached. So if you grab one of the twins,
Speaker 6: the other one squeals, even though they're separated by the
Speaker 6: whole universe. So the idea of nonlocality independent of space
Speaker 6: and time is quite current in modern physics. That's not
Speaker 6: an occult idea anymore. The Buddhists, of course, said there's
Speaker 6: no separation in consciousness, and they said that whereenty five
Speaker 6: hundred years ago. But we would much rather believe an
Speaker 6: experiment with twin photons than anything that appeared in the
Speaker 6: project of Perimita twenty five hundred years ago. But the
Speaker 6: other thing I can tell you, which is the most
Speaker 6: interesting thing I know, and what floats my boat these days,
Speaker 6: is that it's no harder to describe something that happened
Speaker 6: in the future days or weeks in the future than
Speaker 6: it is to describe a hidden contemporaneous thing. So the
Speaker 6: future and the distance are both available to the quiet mind.
Speaker 6: And this non local ability to know the future and
Speaker 6: know the distance is what we call remote viewing.
Speaker 1: When we're talking about this sort of process. Entanglement may
Speaker 1: sound strange, but entanglement is proven. And this gets us
Speaker 1: into well some of the history of the involvement of
Speaker 1: the CIA and other scientists, not just in the US,
Speaker 1: but around the world. One thing that we picked up
Speaker 1: here when we were watching Third Eye Spies, and then
Speaker 1: also when we're looking in some earlier stories of your work,
Speaker 1: we found that a lot of this research occurred within
Speaker 1: the cultural context of the Cold War, and one of
Speaker 1: the most popular frames of thought, at least on the
Speaker 1: US government side, was that the Soviet Union was not
Speaker 1: just interested in similar research, but had already been conducting experiments.
Speaker 2: Is that correct, and was potentially actively using it against
Speaker 2: us to spy on us. It strikes me as almost
Speaker 2: like a space race kind of situation, only in the
Speaker 2: psychic realm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, would you say that's correct?
Speaker 6: Yeah. The American book by Ostrander and Schroeder, these two
Speaker 6: journalists wrote a book in nineteen seventy called Psychic Discoveries
Speaker 6: Behind the Iron Curtain, and they revealed a lot of
Speaker 6: the work that was going on in the Soviet Union.
Speaker 6: This is non classified work, of course, but one of
Speaker 6: the experiments that we can verify because we know one
Speaker 6: of the participants. Now, Larissa Valenskaya, with a Russian physicist
Speaker 6: who eventually worked with us, was present when they did
Speaker 6: a long distance strangulation experiment where one fellow was in
Speaker 6: Moscow and his best friend was in Leningrad hooked up
Speaker 6: to bio our technology, so that when lev in Moscow
Speaker 6: was told, now try and get the attention of your
Speaker 6: friend in the lab in Leningrad, he said, well, one
Speaker 6: way to get an attention is to strangle him. This
Speaker 6: is Russian thinking, of course, And they carry Larissa with
Speaker 6: the guy at Moscow, and she said, they carried out
Speaker 6: the experiment until the guy in Leningrad fell off his
Speaker 6: chair at near death.
Speaker 1: And didn't he also lose consciousness at some point?
Speaker 6: Yes, he did, but with almost he was near death,
Speaker 6: with almost the end of his life. And so the
Speaker 6: difference between the Russian experiments and the American experiments is
Speaker 6: that my interest is inflowing information. Remember this legally blind
Speaker 6: person you're talking to, I'm always interested in getting more information.
Speaker 6: So my pitch my interest and the CIA's interest was
Speaker 6: how can we learn what's going on in distant places?
Speaker 6: And the Russian interest is how can we affect somebody
Speaker 6: in a distant place. Can we embarrass an American leader
Speaker 6: while he's giving a talk and we confuse his mind
Speaker 6: at a distance And the answer is probably yes.
Speaker 2: So it's almost weaponization versus information technology in terms as
Speaker 2: the purpose, right.
Speaker 1: And one one thing that is fascinating about this is
Speaker 1: the way in which the CIA began to take interest
Speaker 1: in your work. From from what we understand, there were
Speaker 1: experiments wherein UH one or more people would learn specific
Speaker 1: information in one case special access code names in another case,
Speaker 1: as you had mentioned, you know, submarines, although they were
Speaker 1: already involved at that point. When when did the CIA
Speaker 1: come to your group directly with regards with this? Did
Speaker 1: they pitch.
Speaker 6: You or I went to the CIA? Okay, I I
Speaker 6: had done laser stuff for the CIA in my earlier
Speaker 6: incarnation is a laser scientist, so I was. I was
Speaker 6: prepared now, after my nice meeting with Round and Jim
Speaker 6: Fletcher and the promise of Doe, I was prepared to
Speaker 6: play my other card and go to the CIA and say,
Speaker 6: can we get some support for teaching people how to
Speaker 6: actually use this ability. And Kit Green, who was the
Speaker 6: head of Life Science Division at that time, said, well,
Speaker 6: something we could do. How about we give you geographical
Speaker 6: coordinates and you can describe what's there, and I'll give
Speaker 6: you coordinates of something that I don't know. So it's
Speaker 6: a double blind experiment. And Pat Price, who is one
Speaker 6: of our great psychics, a retired police commissioner, Price said,
Speaker 6: it looks to me that these coordinates pertain to some
Speaker 6: kind of military base. I see a microwave antenna and
Speaker 6: the big roll up doors. If I go in, there
Speaker 6: a lot of activity at lower levels. The whole role
Speaker 6: of fighting cabinets and place is called rackop and it's
Speaker 6: all the programs are named like eight Paul and Q
Speaker 6: ball and so forth. They all have Billiard names. And
Speaker 6: he wrote down a bunch of those, and I delivered
Speaker 6: those to Kit Green. That was our program That was
Speaker 6: our deliverable. Is a picture of this radar site and
Speaker 6: the name of the programs, a picture that he had drawn,
Speaker 6: that Price had drawn. And that wasn't at all what
Speaker 6: Kit expected, because Kit then went to his buddy who
Speaker 6: gave him the coordinates and it was a log cabin
Speaker 6: but because Ingo Swan, another psychic at our lab. In fact,
Speaker 6: Swan was the one who taught us how to do
Speaker 6: remote viewing. Swan had drawn things very similar to path Price.
Speaker 6: And the reason that Kit Green wanted to pursue this
Speaker 6: is that both psychics threw the same thing. So he
Speaker 6: drove up toward the cabin that was the ostensible target,
Speaker 6: and one hundred meters past the cabin there was this
Speaker 6: military facility which is called Sugar Grove, a highly classified
Speaker 6: National Security Agency listening post. But Kid, of course says
Speaker 6: all the credentials so he could go anywhere, and he
Speaker 6: went in there, drove around, saw what they had talked
Speaker 6: to the management said, do you know anything about these
Speaker 6: funny names that the psychic gave us? And all hell
Speaker 6: broke clues because what path Prices described were top secret
Speaker 6: code names of ongoing programs listening to Russian microwave transmissions.
Speaker 6: So the thing that we had penetrated accidentally, it was
Speaker 6: one of the most secret things in America, namely a
Speaker 6: NSA crypto listening post penetrated by two psychics in California.
Speaker 6: So that caused a major break out at the National
Speaker 6: Security Agency. First of all, they were angry at Kit
Speaker 6: Green and complained to their management at CIA, why are
Speaker 6: you guys targeting our facility with a bunch of psychics,
Speaker 6: And Kit Green said it was an accident. They missed
Speaker 6: the log cabin and somehow zeroed in on your place.
Speaker 6: So we then had a meeting at SRI where the
Speaker 6: security people at NSA faced path Price and say, if
Speaker 6: you're so psychic, why did you look at our place
Speaker 6: if you were targeted at a log cabin? And he said, well,
Speaker 6: I was coming in at fifty thousand feet and I
Speaker 6: looked on and I of course saw the log cabin,
Speaker 6: but I saw you're a huge spread of giant microwave dishes,
Speaker 6: and I assumed that that must be what they'reafter. So
Speaker 6: I landed there and walked around and describe what I found,
Speaker 6: and he said, you got to remember that the more
Speaker 6: attention you have on hiding something, the more it shines
Speaker 6: like a beacon in psychic space. And then of course
Speaker 6: totally freaked out all these people overcome with security.
Speaker 1: That was going to be the question, Yeah, how how
Speaker 1: did they react? Did they did they immediately go into shock?
Speaker 1: Did they assume that someone had leaked to the location
Speaker 1: from their side or how did they handle this?
Speaker 6: The first thing they decided is there was a security leak.
Speaker 6: Except this is a if. There is almost worse for
Speaker 6: there to be a security leak than for a psychic
Speaker 6: to look in. So if you have a security leak
Speaker 6: where a top secret program in the basement of the
Speaker 6: NSA has penetrated, then you've got a super major problem,
Speaker 6: even worse than esp And they decided that there was
Speaker 6: no leak. The NSA went away, and we promise not
Speaker 6: to look in on them anymore, and at the CIA
Speaker 6: then supported our program for many more years. And that's
Speaker 6: how we wound up looking at a Soviet weapons factory.
Speaker 6: We were targeted to look at a Soviet site someplace
Speaker 6: in Siberia. And I'm always the in house person because
Speaker 6: I don't drive, so in all these experiments, I'm the
Speaker 6: one sitting with the dark, sitting in the dark with
Speaker 6: the psychic, and I saying, okay, Pat, we got a
Speaker 6: new target today. It's in Russia. No idea, what's there?
Speaker 6: And he quiets your mind and tell me what's surprising?
Speaker 6: Things come into view, which is my magic words to
Speaker 6: launch a ESP pro target. And he said, well, I'm
Speaker 6: lying on a building in the sunshine, and the sun
Speaker 6: feels good on my body, says he. And there's this
Speaker 6: giant crane rolling back and forth over me, a huge crane.
Speaker 6: It's a gantry crane with four wheels on either side
Speaker 6: of the building, rolling back and forth. This is such
Speaker 6: an me. I've got to draw this crane. And he
Speaker 6: drew the crane, and the next day we brought that
Speaker 6: to Ken Crafts and kit crane and they unrolled a
Speaker 6: photograph that they had, a top secret UH satellite photograph,
Speaker 6: and what place drew was remarkably similar to the crane
Speaker 6: on the ground that they were shocked that he could
Speaker 6: he could, out of his head replicate this thing that
Speaker 6: was already marked top secret. And of course we had
Speaker 6: clearances to see this. I mean, part of the part
Speaker 6: of the evidence that our that e SP was real
Speaker 6: is that my partner and I had top secret clearances
Speaker 6: because the things we were describing were verified by satellite photography.
Speaker 6: So this was this was not gameplay and we were
Speaker 6: serious contenders. So Ken Chris said, well, we knew that
Speaker 6: that was there because we had that's why we picked
Speaker 6: the site. Well, we want to know is what are
Speaker 6: they doing underground? What are the crane used, what are
Speaker 6: they building? And Price sat back and put in his
Speaker 6: glasses and said, well, they're making a giant steel sphere
Speaker 6: about sixty feet in diameter, and they're building that out
Speaker 6: of gores like orange peel slices. They're welding it together,
Speaker 6: but they're having a hard time welding it because the
Speaker 6: material is so thick that the material is warping as
Speaker 6: they try and weld it. And he drew a picture
Speaker 6: of the sixty foot gores, sixty foot orange fields, and
Speaker 6: then sketched the sixty foot sphere. Unfortunately, the CIA then
Speaker 6: hired him away from US, sort of captured him and
Speaker 6: took him from sunny California to Virginia to be a
Speaker 6: contractor for the CIA, and Price mysteriously died four months later.
Speaker 6: But the CIA had no idea whether or not there
Speaker 6: were sixty foot spheres buried under the Semi Pelitans weapons factory.
Speaker 6: But two years later the factory was opened up and
Speaker 6: they rolled out two of these giant sixty foot spheres
Speaker 6: exactly as Pwice drew them. And in the photographs that
Speaker 6: we show in the movie, you can see how they're
Speaker 6: put together with gores and Aviation Week sent me those photographs,
Speaker 6: so fluideiye spies are in our movie. This is the
Speaker 6: first place anybody could ever actually see what these giant
Speaker 6: spheres look like. And Price was able to describe something
Speaker 6: that nobody in America, nobody in the CIA knew anything about.
Speaker 6: That was because it was buried in a secret rush
Speaker 6: of the site. Esp researchers worry about did he look
Speaker 6: in the future and describe as feedback, And the answer
Speaker 6: is no, he did not do that because he was
Speaker 6: dead before anybody in the West, before he could get
Speaker 6: any place, got no feedback for the crystal clear description
Speaker 6: of his spheres.
Speaker 1: And will pause momentarily for a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 1: and we're back now.
Speaker 2: One thing that I really enjoyed in the film is
Speaker 2: the way you take a lot of these drawings and
Speaker 2: you overlay them over I'm assuming more modern aerial photography
Speaker 2: of some of these locations, and sometimes they line up
Speaker 2: in a very affecting way, like kind of creepy for
Speaker 2: lack of a better term. My question though, is at
Speaker 2: the time, this is just my ignorance about the technology
Speaker 2: of the time, but was there not that level of
Speaker 2: satellite photography available like how.
Speaker 1: The underground I see, I see, And this was the
Speaker 1: mid seventies, right.
Speaker 6: For nineteen seventy four. See the photograph. We the CIA
Speaker 6: did have photographs of the big crane, but that was
Speaker 6: already a top secret photograph, very closely held, and they
Speaker 6: had no idea what was in the building under the crane,
Speaker 6: what are they making? And in fact, the reason for
Speaker 6: the exercise is could the psychic describe the stuff on
Speaker 6: the surface at Semi Pela Tinsk? And if you could
Speaker 6: do that, could they then reveal what was going on
Speaker 6: at this huge weapon factory.
Speaker 1: And there's one question that kept popping into my mind
Speaker 1: while watching Third Eye Spies, which was that on multiple
Speaker 1: occasions people say that they that the program had support
Speaker 1: from various branches of the government or intelligence or the military,
Speaker 1: but that the CIA seemed to be, for lack of
Speaker 1: a better word, they seemed to be the ones who
Speaker 1: were pushing the breaks in your experience, and we totally
Speaker 1: understand if that's something they can't be said on air.
Speaker 1: What was it like working with the CIA? I mean, clearly,
Speaker 1: the people in Third Eye Spies, like Christopher kit Green,
Speaker 1: they clearly supported the project and believed in the science
Speaker 1: behind it, but overall as an institution. What was the
Speaker 1: CIA like as a funding partner or research partner.
Speaker 6: I was a co founder in nineteen seventy two and
Speaker 6: I left in nineteen eighty two when it became totally
Speaker 6: classified and I could no longer publish anything that I
Speaker 6: grew up in public. My father was a distinguished New
Speaker 6: York publisher, so I grew up in the Purpose of
Speaker 6: Life with their PubL right book and papers. So by
Speaker 6: eighty two I could no longer publish anything, and I
Speaker 6: felt that my time in graduate school was not spent
Speaker 6: to be a psychic spy for the CIA, but rather
Speaker 6: to understand how our awareness could transcend space and time
Speaker 6: and tell people about it. But during my decade we
Speaker 6: worked with John McMahon, who was the director of Intelligence
Speaker 6: at CIA, A very smart guy trained as a lawyer,
Speaker 6: who was totally on board with what we were doing
Speaker 6: and very supportive. So CIA has given a lot of people,
Speaker 6: a lot of problems, and killed a lot of people,
Speaker 6: and a reprehensible organization, but they let us do what
Speaker 6: we wanted to do. The deal we made with John McMahon,
Speaker 6: head of Intelligence, is that we would spend half of
Speaker 6: our time trying to understand psychic abilities, and in that
Speaker 6: direction we would publish our findings in Nature magazine, the
Speaker 6: English Distinguished Journal, and in the Proceedings of the Institute
Speaker 6: of Electrical Engineers, which is the which would be my
Speaker 6: traditional journal as a laser guy. So he published a
Speaker 6: lengthy paper in the I Triple A Journal called Information
Speaker 6: Transmission under Conditions of Sensory Shielding. From their point of view,
Speaker 6: that looked like a microwave paper, no problem, and the
Speaker 6: Information Transmission just happened to be esp But the CIA
Speaker 6: had a lot of closed minded people there, but the
Speaker 6: guys we were working with were very supportive. Bob Gates
Speaker 6: became the head of CIA and became the Secretary Defense
Speaker 6: eventually and forward nineteen ninety five he was on television
Speaker 6: saying that the Sorry program did not provide any information
Speaker 6: that was useful to anybody. And that was very shortly
Speaker 6: after the Army Group I trained six Army intelligence officers
Speaker 6: to create an Army Psychic Corps in Maryland. So the
Speaker 6: Army had been became embarrassed at having to come to
Speaker 6: SORI wherever they wanted to find something. So we had
Speaker 6: recently found a downed airplane that the CIA couldn't find
Speaker 6: a Russian plane crashed in Africa, and the CIA couldn't
Speaker 6: find it because it was in the jungle, and the
Speaker 6: photography doesn't penetrate the jungle, of course. So CIA came
Speaker 6: to us and said, do you think your psychic could
Speaker 6: find this airplane in northern Africa? And we worked with
Speaker 6: Air Force Intelligence who also had a psychic, and between
Speaker 6: us we drew a little circle, three mile diameter circle
Speaker 6: between the river and the mountains to one side of
Speaker 6: a village, and the CIA launched their helicopter to our
Speaker 6: little circle, and as they landed in the circle, they
Speaker 6: could see natives dragging big hunks of metal from the
Speaker 6: river to the village, showing that they had already found
Speaker 6: the airplane. So a California psychic led the CIA to
Speaker 6: find this airplane that they were unable to find by
Speaker 6: any other means. And our film and Third Eye Spies
Speaker 6: opens up with Jimmy Carter talking about how during his presidency,
Speaker 6: the most remarkable thing he had experienced was the locating
Speaker 6: of a down Russian airplane by psychics in California.
Speaker 2: And that's actually something that has an Atlanta connection to
Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter being a native Atlanta. He gave a commencement
Speaker 2: speech at Emory University. It's also featured in the film
Speaker 2: where he I think the members of the audience were
Speaker 2: able to submit questions and somebody mentioned this program or
Speaker 2: this quote that he had mentioned that he had said,
Speaker 2: and he bringing that up at that point, which I
Speaker 2: believe was in the nineties.
Speaker 6: It cost that helped blow our cover.
Speaker 4: It caused some problems.
Speaker 2: Can you explain why if that was already in the
Speaker 2: public record him saying that, why was it such a
Speaker 2: big deal for him to say it then? And like
Speaker 2: was it didn't create renewed interest when at that point
Speaker 2: it had become so classified.
Speaker 6: And it wasn't in the It wasn't in the public
Speaker 6: record until Jimmy Carter said it. It was that the
Speaker 6: CIA knew that we had found it because we found
Speaker 6: it for them, and the remote viewing operators at Fort
Speaker 6: Meade knew about it, as did we, But the public
Speaker 6: didn't know that there was a extensive ESP program going
Speaker 6: on until Jimmy Carter announced it on television.
Speaker 2: See I was miss I misunderstood that. I thought that
Speaker 2: he had said it previously, because the footage in the
Speaker 2: film is more grainy and black and white. I thought
Speaker 2: it was like a comment that he had made a
Speaker 2: long time ago, but that's not the case. He made
Speaker 2: it for the very first time in the nineties at
Speaker 2: that Emery commencement, and that's what blew your cover correct.
Speaker 6: That's right, okay?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's interesting that Robert Gates, of all people,
Speaker 1: was the one who who said that he didn't see
Speaker 1: some sort of significance, because wasn't wasn't he the same
Speaker 1: person who as an analyst received the information about the
Speaker 1: Russian sub and then called it a lucky guess even
Speaker 1: though that's right?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, he was on television lying his ass off,
Speaker 6: saying that we never said anything worth while, didn't give
Speaker 6: him any information. They didn't know. Joe mcmonagall was targeted
Speaker 6: by the Fort Meat organization that he worked with. He
Speaker 6: was one of the seven or eight psyche I trained
Speaker 6: up Joe, along with six other people. I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 6: I would never say on the air that I taught
Speaker 6: Joe how to be psyched. He came to me psychic,
Speaker 6: but I just showed him the moves for how to
Speaker 6: do remote viewing and make use of this information. And
Speaker 6: he became a prodigious psychic practitioner at Fort Meade, and
Speaker 6: he was able to draw the sub he was targeted
Speaker 6: on the building. There was a large building quarter mile
Speaker 6: inland from the North Sea. They knew the lot of
Speaker 6: activity was going there, and Joe said, well it was.
Speaker 6: It was not a sub base. But Joe said, I
Speaker 6: see them building this huge submarine. They're building a sub
Speaker 6: twice as big as anything I've ever seen, is more
Speaker 6: than five hundred feet long and twice the width of
Speaker 6: an ordinary sub, as though they've stuck two subs together
Speaker 6: side by side. So this is the biggest thing. Is
Speaker 6: looked like a huge whale of a submarine, and they're
Speaker 6: going to launch it in three months. And they launched
Speaker 6: it in three months, and it was exactly what Joe
Speaker 6: described as typhoon class submarine. No one had seen, No
Speaker 6: one in the West had ever seen anything remotely like
Speaker 6: this five hundred and fifty foot submarine that Joe drew
Speaker 6: in detail three months before it was launched. And then
Speaker 6: and then Gates was on the Ted Koppo Show saying
Speaker 6: that we never I was in the film. I'm it
Speaker 6: shows that I'm sitting with Joe and he just says
Speaker 6: Gates is just lying. There's no other way to explain it,
Speaker 6: because he knew about this and what he said back
Speaker 6: to us it was just lucky.
Speaker 2: Guess more with Russell targ after we take a quick
Speaker 2: break to thank our sponsor, and now we are back
Speaker 2: with more from Russell Tark. I have a question, So
Speaker 2: when you talk about being able to train somebody to
Speaker 2: do this, and it sounds to me like almost a
Speaker 2: meditative process, that is a can to astral projection, I guess,
Speaker 2: as it's known in the parlance of our time trade.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose so.
Speaker 2: To me, this begs the question of, you know, the
Speaker 2: nature of science versus spirituality and the mind, the brain versus.
Speaker 4: The soul, et cetera.
Speaker 2: And this is something that I think we've been dancing
Speaker 2: around a little bit in this conversation, but I would
Speaker 2: love to hear how you view those differences.
Speaker 6: We're still recovering from the Enlightenment, the big contribution of
Speaker 6: the Enlightenment with Descartes, who was the author of the
Speaker 6: Terrible Mind Brain Schism. He knew that there was survival
Speaker 6: after death, but he absolutely wanted no part of science
Speaker 6: dealing with spirituality and the church didn't want scientists creeping
Speaker 6: around with the nature of the soul. It was a
Speaker 6: heresy for a person who is not in the clergy
Speaker 6: to start incur inquiring about the nature of the soul.
Speaker 6: And science was just coming out from under the edge
Speaker 6: of spirituality with Newton's laws and Copernicus and hard edged science.
Speaker 6: So the separation between science and spirituality really came at
Speaker 6: that point and became increasingly hard edged. Now this these
Speaker 6: days you have people like Schrodinger saying consciousness is a
Speaker 6: singular of which is no plural. Consciousness is everywhere, and
Speaker 6: Shortinger said the most important discovery and quantum mechanics is entanglement.
Speaker 6: So quantum mechanics has really saved us from the sism
Speaker 6: created by Descartes that is now all of quantum mechanics,
Speaker 6: the so called measurement problem that is also pioneered by Schrodinger,
Speaker 6: and the same as cath problem. That cat is neither
Speaker 6: alive nor not alive until you look and see that
Speaker 6: paradox was invented two thousand years ago by a Buddhist
Speaker 6: dharma master Narda Juna, who said that most things are
Speaker 6: neither true nor not true, but that's outside of what
Speaker 6: we're saying now. But to answer your question, there had
Speaker 6: been a big citism between consciousness research and physics research,
Speaker 6: and that has mended itself largely Now. Physics is very
Speaker 6: interested in the nature of consciousness. So work that we're
Speaker 6: doing now might have been seismatic fifty years ago, but
Speaker 6: it's quite oh coralth these days.
Speaker 1: That's fantastic news because this reminds me of something else.
Speaker 1: To continue the thread of schisms, of mending and of
Speaker 1: learning and scholarship in general. It seems that in some conversations,
Speaker 1: certain researchers, professors, learned people, and so on, are concerned
Speaker 1: about publicly sharing their opinions on one sort of research
Speaker 1: or another publicly, whether in audio interviews or in print.
Speaker 1: The trux of the question here is where is that
Speaker 1: hesitancy coming from. Are researchers perhaps intimidated? Do they think
Speaker 1: they may lose funding or if they're a professor, do
Speaker 1: they think they may lose their position at their institute
Speaker 1: of learning? And if so, is this a well founded fear,
Speaker 1: is it genuine? Is it exaggerated? Where does this come from?
Speaker 6: Well, what Plunk said in about nineteen hundred, you're never
Speaker 6: going to convince the old folks that quantum mechanics is true.
Speaker 6: You're just going to have to wait for them to
Speaker 6: and the new people will discover that it's true. And
Speaker 6: physics universities people are still by and large don't want
Speaker 6: to get tired with the ESP brush that is the
Speaker 6: old The older faculty is going to tease or laugh
Speaker 6: at younger people who are interested in the ESP because
Speaker 6: still still not permitted. But for people working quantum mechanics,
Speaker 6: the idea of consciousness research UH is quite appropriate that
Speaker 6: you could you could go to my making this up now,
Speaker 6: but I guarantee that if you went to the internet
Speaker 6: and look for consciousness and quantum mechanics, you would find
Speaker 6: hundreds of papers so hot topic at the edge the
Speaker 6: quantum mechanics because you have the nature you have, the
Speaker 6: whole nature of consciousness is prograbs. The consciousness is efficacious.
Speaker 6: That's the thing that people don't realize is that they
Speaker 6: want to know consciousness material are not material. So I
Speaker 6: would say that consciousness is neither material nor not material.
Speaker 6: So it's a bad question because we know that the
Speaker 6: thoughts of one person can affect the physiology of a
Speaker 6: distant person. One of the most replicated experiments. In all
Speaker 6: of ESP research is called distant mental influence on living
Speaker 6: persons on living things. So you can see somebody's sitting
Speaker 6: in a distant laboratory and on a random schedule you're
Speaker 6: supposed to excite them or put them to sleep, and
Speaker 6: then you can look at a later time and their
Speaker 6: brain waves or heart rate will show that when I
Speaker 6: was trying to excite them, they became excited, even though
Speaker 6: they might have been fifty meters away. So the fact
Speaker 6: that so consciousness is able to do stuff, So that
Speaker 6: gives a kind of physical reality to consciousness because it's efficacious.
Speaker 6: It's not it's not an EPI phenomena. My consciousness is
Speaker 6: able to move the dial, so because my consciousness demands
Speaker 6: cognizance as a real thing and not an EPI phenomena.
Speaker 6: But we've come to see how the film is about
Speaker 6: the true story of CIA psychic spying. So we've come
Speaker 6: quite quite a way that I'm sort of unreconstructed logical
Speaker 6: positivist that I grew up doing experiments where I could
Speaker 6: lay the experiment dex to the theory and say here's
Speaker 6: what's supposed to happen, here's what did happen. Do we
Speaker 6: know what's going on? So I really believe in good
Speaker 6: experiments stronger than good theory, And say why did I
Speaker 6: What makes you believe in he has paid targ And
Speaker 6: I said, well, nineteen eighty four, after I left SRI,
Speaker 6: I started a group called Delphi Associates. Forecasting changed in
Speaker 6: the silver market, and by the time we got set
Speaker 6: up with a broker and an investor, we thought that
Speaker 6: we understood how to do that. At the end of
Speaker 6: eighty four, we made nine adventures into the silver market
Speaker 6: to determine whether silver goes up a little, or goes
Speaker 6: up a lot, down a little, or down a lot,
Speaker 6: and all nine of our forecasts were correct. Spot on.
Speaker 6: I made one hundred and twenty thousand dollars and in
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty four that was a lot of money. And
Speaker 6: we're on the front page of the Wall Street Journal
Speaker 6: talking about the psychic firm corner of the silver market.
Speaker 6: So doing anything nine times in a row in life
Speaker 6: is remarkable. And doing it in a four choice game
Speaker 6: up a little, up a lot, down a little down
Speaker 6: in a lot is close to odds of one or
Speaker 6: one hundred thousands.
Speaker 1: And that's something people are listening to because as as
Speaker 1: you show in the film, there have been people from
Speaker 1: institutes around the world or countries around the world who
Speaker 1: have traveled to attempt to learn these techniques, specifically some Russian,
Speaker 1: some Russian individuals and groups. And this leads us to
Speaker 1: maybe one of the biggest questions that people have listening
Speaker 1: to this, or biggest series of related questions, why aren't
Speaker 1: there publicly working government assets doing this in the field today?
Speaker 1: And also do you believe that there may still be
Speaker 1: some somewhere out there government funded research occurring along these lines,
Speaker 1: maybe not in the public sphere anymore, maybe it went underground,
Speaker 1: or maybe they stopped. What's your take on this?
Speaker 6: Well, in the film and Third Eye Spies, we have
Speaker 6: Kit Green on camera saying that the best of his knowledge,
Speaker 6: there is still a underground program at the CIA with
Speaker 6: people doing remote viewing. For example, why wouldn't there be
Speaker 6: The last effort that Pep Price did at CIA was
Speaker 6: looking into the code room in the Libyan embassy and
Speaker 6: he was able to penetrate that embassy, find the code room,
Speaker 6: enter it and describe it to the satisfaction of the
Speaker 6: CIA who had once been there before. And I had
Speaker 6: trained up two CIA operatives who came to us to
Speaker 6: see people were always checking up on us to make
Speaker 6: sure there's no loophole in what we're doing. So we
Speaker 6: had a man who has been a lock picker and
Speaker 6: a woman who was a mechanical engineer, both high level
Speaker 6: CIA operators who came to our lab wanted to see
Speaker 6: how we're doing experiments and then they wanted to do
Speaker 6: it themselves. So we had to make sure that our
Speaker 6: protocol was as tight and secure as possible, and both
Speaker 6: of them did highly successful remote viewings of distant places
Speaker 6: that we would lock them into our room and then
Speaker 6: tape the door shut because we didn't trust them either.
Speaker 6: Then Hanla and I would go to some random place
Speaker 6: and both of them were able to give exquisite, accurate
Speaker 6: descriptions of where we were hiding. And Kit Green said
Speaker 6: that in Pat Price's last days at SRI, he was
Speaker 6: working with these two highly trained CIA operatives doing remote
Speaker 6: viewing at the CIA. He said, according to his conversation
Speaker 6: with the Director of Intelligence right now and the film
Speaker 6: is made, that he believed that there's still remote doing
Speaker 6: going on in the basement of the CIA, and why
Speaker 6: wouldn't there.
Speaker 1: Be unfortunately for all of us, especially for you, and
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: Oh man, we had like fifty questions here, but you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, podcasting technically is an infinite medium, but we
Speaker 2: do try to keep it a little bit tight if possible.
Speaker 6: Well, you can find the film at all digital platforms
Speaker 6: starting nine o'clock tonight.
Speaker 2: That's perfect, fantastic, Yeah, and we highly recommend the film.
Speaker 2: Both Ben and I watched it is I plan on
Speaker 2: watching it again immediately. There's so much stuff in there
Speaker 2: that we did not cover, which is a good thing.
Speaker 2: So go see the film. You will find out a
Speaker 2: world of information about this, this entire kind of clandestine
Speaker 2: universe of psychic spies.
Speaker 1: Yes, Russell Targ, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 1: Russell Targ folks American physicist, parapsychologist and author, world renowned
Speaker 1: pioneer in the field of remote viewing. And that's not
Speaker 1: our opinion, now, that's the opinion of the CIA very much.
Speaker 2: So who again, are very hard to please, So thank
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today for the show.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for the opportunity and happy to
Speaker 6: chat with you.
Speaker 1: So we did not get to a significant amount of
Speaker 1: the stuff that we wanted to explore with Russell Targ today.
Speaker 1: But I have to say, what a delightful conversation, what
Speaker 1: a fascinating story.
Speaker 2: It was absolutely fascinating and just a delightful human being
Speaker 2: to talk to. It's such an interesting combination of the
Speaker 2: love for the metaphysical and the physical and his separation
Speaker 2: of the mind and brain and soul.
Speaker 4: All of that just really hit home for me.
Speaker 2: And he was so generous with his time that even
Speaker 2: after we wrapped the interview, there were topics we wanted
Speaker 2: to explore more, and he was just like, yeah, just
Speaker 2: call me, I'll come back.
Speaker 4: So look for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so look for him to in the meantime. We
Speaker 1: don't have questions just for Russell Targ, of course not.
Speaker 1: If you know this show well enough, you know that
Speaker 1: we always end with questions for you. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff that we didn't get to in our initial conversation,
Speaker 1: but we want to know what related topics you believe
Speaker 1: we should explore in the future. We'd also like to
Speaker 1: hear your take on this. Do you think ESP remote viewing, claravoyance,
Speaker 1: call it what you wish? Do you think there is
Speaker 1: some sand to it? And regardless of where you fall
Speaker 1: in the debate, what do you think the future of
Speaker 1: this research holds. I'm also very interested to see for
Speaker 1: any of us listening who live in the ivory towers
Speaker 1: of academia, have you ever felt that you were intimidated
Speaker 1: or bullied away from conducting a particular type of research?
Speaker 1: And if so, what?
Speaker 2: And I had a question for you, Ben off Air,
Speaker 2: was how is this different from some of the cold
Speaker 2: reading techniques that we associate with mentalists and hypnotists that
Speaker 2: would be doing more of a parlor trick rather than
Speaker 2: something like this that seems to really have some scientific
Speaker 2: sand behind it.
Speaker 4: And you had a really good answer for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there are So there are two different types
Speaker 1: of ways that someone who's perpetrating a fraud or a
Speaker 1: hoax would convince their mark that they had psychic powers.
Speaker 1: One way is called cold reading. Cold reading is when
Speaker 1: you're fishing for things. That's when you hear someone like
Speaker 1: was that guy a few years ago John Edwards say,
Speaker 1: could speak with.
Speaker 4: A pickup artist?
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, different, yes exactly, And he would say he
Speaker 1: would say stuff like, oh okay, I'm feeling out in
Speaker 1: the crowd, something with a j Jeremy John a j
Speaker 1: John John Jay, and they would they would go around
Speaker 1: like that until someone says, yes, I know someone Jeremy,
Speaker 1: and then say, okay, there, I think they're They like colors, right,
Speaker 1: they had they had a favorite color. And then they'll
Speaker 1: say their favorite color was blue, and they're like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's right blue. That's cold reading. The psecond kind is
Speaker 1: hot reading. Hot reading is when you straight up do
Speaker 1: research beforehand. You google our pal Matt Frederick, you learn
Speaker 1: about his life, and then when you meet him you
Speaker 1: pretend that you are getting a psychic impression. This would
Speaker 1: be a little different the way that they're explaining the
Speaker 1: coordinate sending or remote sensing is such that the person
Speaker 1: who is the interviewer. The role Russell targ was playing
Speaker 1: was legitimate on his part because he did not have
Speaker 1: knowledge of where his associate was taking people. They had
Speaker 1: no predetermined understanding what that location would be. So if
Speaker 1: he didn't know, he could not cold read or lead
Speaker 1: the person attempting to remote view. But that all depends
Speaker 1: on whether or not they had that information. It doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like they did.
Speaker 2: Does not, And that's something that I meant to ask,
Speaker 2: But we just had so much stuff to cover that
Speaker 2: it slipped my mind, but I think that's a really
Speaker 2: good explanation.
Speaker 1: Who killed Pat Preisnel Well.
Speaker 2: Exactly again, subject for another day. In the meantime, if
Speaker 2: you want to reach out to us, you can do
Speaker 2: so on our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy,
Speaker 2: where you can post questions. And I think we're going
Speaker 2: to start doing a thing where we start like a
Speaker 2: thread for each episode, or even let people know in
Speaker 2: advance what the next episode is going to be.
Speaker 4: We've talked about doing that.
Speaker 7: Yep, the episode three and that's the end of this
Speaker 7: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about
Speaker 7: this episode, you can get into contact with us in
Speaker 7: a number of different ways. One of the best is
Speaker 7: to give us a call. Our number is one eight
Speaker 7: three three STDWYTK. If you don't want to do that,
Speaker 7: you can send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 5: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
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