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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show Conspiracy Realist. We have a

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Speaker 1: classic episode for you, guys. Have you ever tried astral projection?

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Speaker 2: I have not, but I do have a good buddy

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Speaker 2: who is working on a documentary about astrophysics and the

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Speaker 2: nature of existence, and he himself has tried astral projection,

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Speaker 2: and he is the kind of a feature. He's the

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Speaker 2: host of the series and tells his own story about

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Speaker 2: believing and experiencing that very thing.

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Speaker 3: Astral projection is awesome. Remote viewing, in my opinion, is

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Speaker 3: just as awesome. I was going to say almost awesomer.

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Speaker 3: Do listen to another episode that you can find in

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Speaker 3: our feed. It's titled Remote Viewing Session May twenty second,

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four. It's super great because the person I

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Speaker 3: don't think I'm in this interview, guys, but the person

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Speaker 3: that you were talking to, Russell Targ, fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I appreciate you. I appreciate you recommending our

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Speaker 1: astral projection or remote viewing recreation, right. And so in

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Speaker 1: tonight's interview, we speak with this guy named Russell Targ,

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Speaker 1: a physicist and author, the creator of a film called

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Speaker 1: Third Eye Spies. And this is Dare I say, an

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Speaker 1: on the ground reporting of astral projection. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: all right, we'll keep it.

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Speaker 4: Let's roll it.

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Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 5: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is Nola.

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Speaker 1: Our good friend and compatriot Matt Frederick is on adventures today,

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Speaker 1: but we will have someone filling in. You could say,

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Speaker 1: they call me Ben. We are joined with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly, you are you. You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know.

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Speaker 4: A very trippy episode.

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Speaker 2: This episode is a trippy treat and it is something

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Speaker 2: that's been a long time in the worst because we've talked.

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Speaker 2: We danced around this subject for years back as far

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Speaker 2: as the videos.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if we danced around is there. Matt

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Speaker 1: and I did this.

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Speaker 2: Funny that time, you know, And that's why I was

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Speaker 2: such a bummer that Matt couldn't be here today, because

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Speaker 2: this is something that's very near and dear to him.

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Speaker 4: So I hope we did him proud with what you're

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Speaker 4: about to hear.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, we are joined today by a very

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Speaker 1: special guest, the physicist, parapsychologist, and pioneer in the field

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Speaker 1: of remote viewing, Russell Targ. And Russell Harg has been

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Speaker 1: instrumental in the way that we not just as people

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Speaker 1: but as governments understand the phenomenon they call remote viewing.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 1: He's perhaps best known in terms of this work for

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Speaker 1: his time with Stanford Research Institute.

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Speaker 2: Which I believe was endowed by Stanford University and then

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Speaker 2: spun off into a completely independent entity in the early seventies.

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Speaker 2: Targ got his start in the hard science of lasers

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Speaker 2: and then parlay that fascination with research and optics, and honestly,

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Speaker 2: it was an experiential thing for him to start because

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Speaker 2: of his difficulties with his own vision, and he sort

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Speaker 2: of took that and turned it into this pursuit, lifelong

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Speaker 2: pursuit of being able to project yourself out of yourself

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Speaker 2: and being able to teach people how to do this.

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Speaker 2: And this is not a conspiracy theory. Dare we say

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Speaker 2: there's aspect of this that isn't a conspiracy at all.

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Speaker 2: This has been declassified. Was a thing the CIA participate

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Speaker 2: and fund it actively.

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Speaker 1: Long time listeners, you will be familiar with many of

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Speaker 1: the players involved and certainly a lot of the phenomenon involved.

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Speaker 1: But today we are going directly to the source. We

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Speaker 1: recently had a chance to sit down with Russell Targ ourselves, well,

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Speaker 1: sit down in the podcast sense and get a first

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Speaker 1: hand description of the evolution of SRI, the nuts and

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Speaker 1: bolts of remote viewing research, and possibly i'll look into

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Speaker 1: the future, although we say there's not much of a difference.

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Speaker 2: And Russell Tag was also instrumental in the production of

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Speaker 2: a film that is out now called Third Eye Spies

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Speaker 2: that goes into the history of his work with the CIA.

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Speaker 2: Some mysteries along the way that are almost outside of

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Speaker 2: the scope of this conversation, but I think you'll see

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Speaker 2: them in future episodes and more.

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Speaker 1: And so, without further Ado, Russell Targ, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for taking the time to come on the show

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Speaker 1: with us today. I believe one of the first questions

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Speaker 1: that our audience will have will be a biographical or

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Speaker 1: personal question. You are a renowned physicist, a parapsychologist, and

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Speaker 1: an author, and originally you worked specifically with applications for

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Speaker 1: laser technology to our audience. The idea of working in

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Speaker 1: that field and the idea of exploring what we would

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Speaker 1: today call ESP or remote viewing. They seem like, at

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Speaker 1: first glance, two very very different things. Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about what inspired your exploration and

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Speaker 1: experimentation with remote viewing.

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Speaker 6: In the beginning, I was a very verly defective person.

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Speaker 6: My vision has lifelong been terrible, so I was always

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Speaker 6: doing things that could improve my vision, and I got

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Speaker 6: very interested in optics, which is a natural thing for

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Speaker 6: a visually handicapped person to do. So through that I

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Speaker 6: became what we could call a pioneer in the development

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Speaker 6: of the laser. I was working on lasers before there

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Speaker 6: were any lasers, so I pursued that experiments with lasers

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Speaker 6: laser communication, and I wound up building an ultra high

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Speaker 6: power laser. But all my life I was aware the

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Speaker 6: psychic abilities were present because as a kid I was

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Speaker 6: interested in magic and did pretend magic on the stage.

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Speaker 6: And what every magician will tell you, I've talked to Melbourn,

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Speaker 6: Christopher and the Great Crescin and they said, oh, yes,

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Speaker 6: when we're on the stage with the lights in our eyes,

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Speaker 6: we get to supplement our act with whatever ESP comes

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Speaker 6: our way, and I had that experience also, so I

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Speaker 6: had the idea while I was doing laser work that

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Speaker 6: one of these days I would make a transition into

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Speaker 6: ESP work because I was confident that I could teach

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Speaker 6: people how to get in touch with their psychic abilities.

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Speaker 6: So in nineteen seventy two, my laser customer invited me

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Speaker 6: to a conference on speculative technology off the shore of Virginia,

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Speaker 6: and at that meeting I had a serendipet his run

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Speaker 6: in with Werner von Brown, Jim Fletcher, who was the

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Speaker 6: administrator of all of NASA, and Edgar Mitchell, who the

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Speaker 6: astronaut who just came to Earth. And together with my

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Speaker 6: three new friends, we outlined what a program investigating psychic

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Speaker 6: abilities would be and I took that to Stanford Research Institute.

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Speaker 6: So my first do for ESP research was to build

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Speaker 6: an ESP teaching machine. And it just happens that that

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Speaker 6: machine I built is now available of a free application

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Speaker 6: called ESP Trainer for your iPhone. So I got in

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Speaker 6: business investigating psychic abilities through my earlier development of an

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Speaker 6: ESP teaching machine, and together with support of NASA and

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Speaker 6: also the CIA, we were often running at Stanford because

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Speaker 6: I had built laser stuff for the CIA as well,

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Speaker 6: so I had some credentials with NASA and with the CIA,

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Speaker 6: so I could propose this thought out, seeming program. And

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Speaker 6: they knew that I was a scientist who was already

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Speaker 6: able to do hard stuff and make it work, so

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Speaker 6: they gave us a small amount of money to start

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Speaker 6: a program at Stanford Research Institute.

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Speaker 4: But so I have a question.

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Speaker 2: So for something like ES that even today sort of

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Speaker 2: exists for many in the speculative realm, where it's difficult

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Speaker 2: to prove, how do you take something like that, especially

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Speaker 2: when it involves funding and research dollars and eventually government,

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Speaker 2: And how do you prove something that to many people

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Speaker 2: is looked at as pseudoscience or as the supernatural.

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Speaker 6: Well, there's several ways to do that. One of the

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Speaker 6: ways I had, and I've written quite a number of

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Speaker 6: books describing how ESP worked, what the theory might be,

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Speaker 6: how you can learn to do it, And of course

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Speaker 6: that's not very efficacious. So I decided five years ago

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Speaker 6: to create a film making use of all the previously

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Speaker 6: top secret material we had. So I made a film

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Speaker 6: called Third Eye Spies, which shows people doing psychic abilities

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Speaker 6: looking for Soviet weapons factories, missing hostages, Russian submarines. And

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Speaker 6: the thing that makes our film unique, make it an event,

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Speaker 6: is that we have on camera the CIA contract monitors

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Speaker 6: who oversaw our program. So we have as CIA scientist

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Speaker 6: Ken Kress, who is a lifelong physicist, and Kit Green,

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Speaker 6: who was the director of the Life Science Division at

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Speaker 6: the CIA, and these two distinguished elder CIA operatives are

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Speaker 6: on camera saying, yes, we were polygraphed and we worked

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Speaker 6: with targ and what he said in this film is true.

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Speaker 6: It really happened. So unlike other films talking about ESP,

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Speaker 6: where you have the researchers or the psychics, here we

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Speaker 6: have the guys who paid for it. And you know,

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Speaker 6: the CIA is not easily amused. And we have these

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Speaker 6: two distinguished CIA operators on camera looking into the camera

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Speaker 6: and said it might be hard to believe, but we

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Speaker 6: were there and it really happened. So that's one way

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Speaker 6: endeavor to convince people that ESP is real. The other

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Speaker 6: way is to show them how to do it. So

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Speaker 6: very often we were trying to get money from the

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Speaker 6: government to do different kinds of things, and a government

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Speaker 6: scientist will come to our laboratory and say, well, we

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Speaker 6: will show can you show me what you guys are doing?

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Speaker 6: And one instance like this, we had a visit from

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Speaker 6: the Undersecretary Defense, Walter Labert, who the second to the

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Speaker 6: Secretary Defense at that time. Laberge came in his helicopter

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Speaker 6: clearing our parking lot and he said, okay, can you

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Speaker 6: show me something psychic. We've been supporting you. Now, how

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Speaker 6: does this work? And I said, certainly I can, sir. Well,

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Speaker 6: I'll just show you how to do it, which is

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Speaker 6: what I do. People come to the lab they want

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Speaker 6: to learn how to dop, and I show them how

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Speaker 6: to do remote viewing. So I said, the way we

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Speaker 6: do this is your adjutant will go hide someplace with

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Speaker 6: my partner help put off. I'll go with some random

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Speaker 6: location in the San Francisco Bay area, and that's the target.

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Speaker 6: They've gone, some mystery spot, and I will sit with you, sir,

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Speaker 6: and I of course have no idea where they've gone,

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Speaker 6: but I will show you the moves to quiet your

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Speaker 6: mind and look for surprising images to pop into your awareness,

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Speaker 6: and then you will make a drawing of those surprising images.

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Speaker 6: And that's what we do. So he said, okay, if

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Speaker 6: you tell me what to do that. I can do that.

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Speaker 6: It's a very senior scientist accustom to being successful. And

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Speaker 6: I said, all right, they're at their place, now start drawing.

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Speaker 6: And you see, you can't be wrong, doctor Leberg, because

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Speaker 6: only you know what your images are. And I just

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Speaker 6: want you to make a drawing of what shows up

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Speaker 6: in your awareness. That's surprising. And he drew a kind

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Speaker 6: of brick courtyard, circular courtyard with a circular fountain in

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Speaker 6: the middle, all bricks all the way around, all bricks,

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Speaker 6: so forth with fountain, and he said, that's all I got,

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Speaker 6: the circular arrays of tiers of bricks. I said, well,

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Speaker 6: that's fine, that's pretty surprising. And they came back and

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Speaker 6: then the four of us, the beers and me and

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Speaker 6: the two travelers went to the place, which was a

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Speaker 6: art center quite a distant from Sri and he got

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Speaker 6: to see in real life what he had drawn, and

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Speaker 6: he said, well, that's pretty impressive. And I didn't even

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Speaker 6: believe in this stuff. So what we know is the

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Speaker 6: remote viewing is an ability we all have to quiet

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Speaker 6: our minds and describe and experience what's going on in

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Speaker 6: a distance location. And people can have that experience and

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Speaker 6: learn to quiet their minds and learn to do that.

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Speaker 6: And one of the most interesting things I know is

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Speaker 6: that remote viewing is a non local ability. Like much

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Speaker 6: in modern science, nonlocality is a very hot topic pertaining

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Speaker 6: particularly when when photons or electrons are separated at birth,

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Speaker 6: they remain attached. So if you grab one of the twins,

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Speaker 6: the other one squeals, even though they're separated by the

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Speaker 6: whole universe. So the idea of nonlocality independent of space

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Speaker 6: and time is quite current in modern physics. That's not

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Speaker 6: an occult idea anymore. The Buddhists, of course, said there's

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Speaker 6: no separation in consciousness, and they said that whereenty five

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Speaker 6: hundred years ago. But we would much rather believe an

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Speaker 6: experiment with twin photons than anything that appeared in the

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Speaker 6: project of Perimita twenty five hundred years ago. But the

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Speaker 6: other thing I can tell you, which is the most

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Speaker 6: interesting thing I know, and what floats my boat these days,

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Speaker 6: is that it's no harder to describe something that happened

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Speaker 6: in the future days or weeks in the future than

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Speaker 6: it is to describe a hidden contemporaneous thing. So the

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Speaker 6: future and the distance are both available to the quiet mind.

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Speaker 6: And this non local ability to know the future and

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Speaker 6: know the distance is what we call remote viewing.

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Speaker 1: When we're talking about this sort of process. Entanglement may

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Speaker 1: sound strange, but entanglement is proven. And this gets us

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Speaker 1: into well some of the history of the involvement of

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Speaker 1: the CIA and other scientists, not just in the US,

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Speaker 1: but around the world. One thing that we picked up

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Speaker 1: here when we were watching Third Eye Spies, and then

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Speaker 1: also when we're looking in some earlier stories of your work,

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Speaker 1: we found that a lot of this research occurred within

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Speaker 1: the cultural context of the Cold War, and one of

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Speaker 1: the most popular frames of thought, at least on the

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Speaker 1: US government side, was that the Soviet Union was not

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Speaker 1: just interested in similar research, but had already been conducting experiments.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct, and was potentially actively using it against

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Speaker 2: us to spy on us. It strikes me as almost

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Speaker 2: like a space race kind of situation, only in the

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Speaker 2: psychic realm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, would you say that's correct?

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Speaker 6: Yeah. The American book by Ostrander and Schroeder, these two

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Speaker 6: journalists wrote a book in nineteen seventy called Psychic Discoveries

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Speaker 6: Behind the Iron Curtain, and they revealed a lot of

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Speaker 6: the work that was going on in the Soviet Union.

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Speaker 6: This is non classified work, of course, but one of

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Speaker 6: the experiments that we can verify because we know one

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Speaker 6: of the participants. Now, Larissa Valenskaya, with a Russian physicist

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Speaker 6: who eventually worked with us, was present when they did

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Speaker 6: a long distance strangulation experiment where one fellow was in

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Speaker 6: Moscow and his best friend was in Leningrad hooked up

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Speaker 6: to bio our technology, so that when lev in Moscow

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Speaker 6: was told, now try and get the attention of your

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Speaker 6: friend in the lab in Leningrad, he said, well, one

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Speaker 6: way to get an attention is to strangle him. This

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Speaker 6: is Russian thinking, of course, And they carry Larissa with

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Speaker 6: the guy at Moscow, and she said, they carried out

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Speaker 6: the experiment until the guy in Leningrad fell off his

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Speaker 6: chair at near death.

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Speaker 1: And didn't he also lose consciousness at some point?

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Speaker 6: Yes, he did, but with almost he was near death,

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Speaker 6: with almost the end of his life. And so the

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Speaker 6: difference between the Russian experiments and the American experiments is

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Speaker 6: that my interest is inflowing information. Remember this legally blind

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Speaker 6: person you're talking to, I'm always interested in getting more information.

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Speaker 6: So my pitch my interest and the CIA's interest was

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Speaker 6: how can we learn what's going on in distant places?

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Speaker 6: And the Russian interest is how can we affect somebody

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Speaker 6: in a distant place. Can we embarrass an American leader

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Speaker 6: while he's giving a talk and we confuse his mind

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Speaker 6: at a distance And the answer is probably yes.

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Speaker 2: So it's almost weaponization versus information technology in terms as

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Speaker 2: the purpose, right.

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Speaker 1: And one one thing that is fascinating about this is

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Speaker 1: the way in which the CIA began to take interest

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Speaker 1: in your work. From from what we understand, there were

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Speaker 1: experiments wherein UH one or more people would learn specific

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Speaker 1: information in one case special access code names in another case,

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Speaker 1: as you had mentioned, you know, submarines, although they were

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Speaker 1: already involved at that point. When when did the CIA

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Speaker 1: come to your group directly with regards with this? Did

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Speaker 1: they pitch.

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Speaker 6: You or I went to the CIA? Okay, I I

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Speaker 6: had done laser stuff for the CIA in my earlier

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Speaker 6: incarnation is a laser scientist, so I was. I was

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Speaker 6: prepared now, after my nice meeting with Round and Jim

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Speaker 6: Fletcher and the promise of Doe, I was prepared to

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Speaker 6: play my other card and go to the CIA and say,

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Speaker 6: can we get some support for teaching people how to

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Speaker 6: actually use this ability. And Kit Green, who was the

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Speaker 6: head of Life Science Division at that time, said, well,

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Speaker 6: something we could do. How about we give you geographical

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Speaker 6: coordinates and you can describe what's there, and I'll give

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Speaker 6: you coordinates of something that I don't know. So it's

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Speaker 6: a double blind experiment. And Pat Price, who is one

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Speaker 6: of our great psychics, a retired police commissioner, Price said,

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Speaker 6: it looks to me that these coordinates pertain to some

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Speaker 6: kind of military base. I see a microwave antenna and

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Speaker 6: the big roll up doors. If I go in, there

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Speaker 6: a lot of activity at lower levels. The whole role

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Speaker 6: of fighting cabinets and place is called rackop and it's

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Speaker 6: all the programs are named like eight Paul and Q

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Speaker 6: ball and so forth. They all have Billiard names. And

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Speaker 6: he wrote down a bunch of those, and I delivered

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Speaker 6: those to Kit Green. That was our program That was

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Speaker 6: our deliverable. Is a picture of this radar site and

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Speaker 6: the name of the programs, a picture that he had drawn,

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Speaker 6: that Price had drawn. And that wasn't at all what

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Speaker 6: Kit expected, because Kit then went to his buddy who

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Speaker 6: gave him the coordinates and it was a log cabin

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Speaker 6: but because Ingo Swan, another psychic at our lab. In fact,

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Speaker 6: Swan was the one who taught us how to do

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Speaker 6: remote viewing. Swan had drawn things very similar to path Price.

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Speaker 6: And the reason that Kit Green wanted to pursue this

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Speaker 6: is that both psychics threw the same thing. So he

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Speaker 6: drove up toward the cabin that was the ostensible target,

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Speaker 6: and one hundred meters past the cabin there was this

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Speaker 6: military facility which is called Sugar Grove, a highly classified

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Speaker 6: National Security Agency listening post. But Kid, of course says

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Speaker 6: all the credentials so he could go anywhere, and he

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Speaker 6: went in there, drove around, saw what they had talked

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Speaker 6: to the management said, do you know anything about these

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Speaker 6: funny names that the psychic gave us? And all hell

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Speaker 6: broke clues because what path Prices described were top secret

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Speaker 6: code names of ongoing programs listening to Russian microwave transmissions.

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Speaker 6: So the thing that we had penetrated accidentally, it was

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Speaker 6: one of the most secret things in America, namely a

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Speaker 6: NSA crypto listening post penetrated by two psychics in California.

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Speaker 6: So that caused a major break out at the National

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Speaker 6: Security Agency. First of all, they were angry at Kit

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Speaker 6: Green and complained to their management at CIA, why are

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Speaker 6: you guys targeting our facility with a bunch of psychics,

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Speaker 6: And Kit Green said it was an accident. They missed

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Speaker 6: the log cabin and somehow zeroed in on your place.

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Speaker 6: So we then had a meeting at SRI where the

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Speaker 6: security people at NSA faced path Price and say, if

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Speaker 6: you're so psychic, why did you look at our place

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Speaker 6: if you were targeted at a log cabin? And he said, well,

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Speaker 6: I was coming in at fifty thousand feet and I

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Speaker 6: looked on and I of course saw the log cabin,

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Speaker 6: but I saw you're a huge spread of giant microwave dishes,

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Speaker 6: and I assumed that that must be what they'reafter. So

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Speaker 6: I landed there and walked around and describe what I found,

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Speaker 6: and he said, you got to remember that the more

355
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Speaker 6: attention you have on hiding something, the more it shines

356
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Speaker 6: like a beacon in psychic space. And then of course

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Speaker 6: totally freaked out all these people overcome with security.

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Speaker 1: That was going to be the question, Yeah, how how

359
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Speaker 1: did they react? Did they did they immediately go into shock?

360
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Speaker 1: Did they assume that someone had leaked to the location

361
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Speaker 1: from their side or how did they handle this?

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Speaker 6: The first thing they decided is there was a security leak.

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Speaker 6: Except this is a if. There is almost worse for

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Speaker 6: there to be a security leak than for a psychic

365
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 6: to look in. So if you have a security leak

366
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Speaker 6: where a top secret program in the basement of the

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Speaker 6: NSA has penetrated, then you've got a super major problem,

368
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Speaker 6: even worse than esp And they decided that there was

369
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Speaker 6: no leak. The NSA went away, and we promise not

370
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Speaker 6: to look in on them anymore, and at the CIA

371
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Speaker 6: then supported our program for many more years. And that's

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Speaker 6: how we wound up looking at a Soviet weapons factory.

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Speaker 6: We were targeted to look at a Soviet site someplace

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Speaker 6: in Siberia. And I'm always the in house person because

375
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Speaker 6: I don't drive, so in all these experiments, I'm the

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Speaker 6: one sitting with the dark, sitting in the dark with

377
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Speaker 6: the psychic, and I saying, okay, Pat, we got a

378
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Speaker 6: new target today. It's in Russia. No idea, what's there?

379
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Speaker 6: And he quiets your mind and tell me what's surprising?

380
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Speaker 6: Things come into view, which is my magic words to

381
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Speaker 6: launch a ESP pro target. And he said, well, I'm

382
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Speaker 6: lying on a building in the sunshine, and the sun

383
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Speaker 6: feels good on my body, says he. And there's this

384
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Speaker 6: giant crane rolling back and forth over me, a huge crane.

385
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Speaker 6: It's a gantry crane with four wheels on either side

386
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 6: of the building, rolling back and forth. This is such

387
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 6: an me. I've got to draw this crane. And he

388
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 6: drew the crane, and the next day we brought that

389
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 6: to Ken Crafts and kit crane and they unrolled a

390
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 6: photograph that they had, a top secret UH satellite photograph,

391
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 6: and what place drew was remarkably similar to the crane

392
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Speaker 6: on the ground that they were shocked that he could

393
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 6: he could, out of his head replicate this thing that

394
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 6: was already marked top secret. And of course we had

395
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Speaker 6: clearances to see this. I mean, part of the part

396
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Speaker 6: of the evidence that our that e SP was real

397
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Speaker 6: is that my partner and I had top secret clearances

398
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Speaker 6: because the things we were describing were verified by satellite photography.

399
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Speaker 6: So this was this was not gameplay and we were

400
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 6: serious contenders. So Ken Chris said, well, we knew that

401
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 6: that was there because we had that's why we picked

402
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 6: the site. Well, we want to know is what are

403
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 6: they doing underground? What are the crane used, what are

404
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 6: they building? And Price sat back and put in his

405
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 6: glasses and said, well, they're making a giant steel sphere

406
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 6: about sixty feet in diameter, and they're building that out

407
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 6: of gores like orange peel slices. They're welding it together,

408
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 6: but they're having a hard time welding it because the

409
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 6: material is so thick that the material is warping as

410
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 6: they try and weld it. And he drew a picture

411
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 6: of the sixty foot gores, sixty foot orange fields, and

412
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 6: then sketched the sixty foot sphere. Unfortunately, the CIA then

413
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 6: hired him away from US, sort of captured him and

414
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 6: took him from sunny California to Virginia to be a

415
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 6: contractor for the CIA, and Price mysteriously died four months later.

416
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 6: But the CIA had no idea whether or not there

417
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 6: were sixty foot spheres buried under the Semi Pelitans weapons factory.

418
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 6: But two years later the factory was opened up and

419
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 6: they rolled out two of these giant sixty foot spheres

420
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 6: exactly as Pwice drew them. And in the photographs that

421
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 6: we show in the movie, you can see how they're

422
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 6: put together with gores and Aviation Week sent me those photographs,

423
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 6: so fluideiye spies are in our movie. This is the

424
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 6: first place anybody could ever actually see what these giant

425
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 6: spheres look like. And Price was able to describe something

426
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 6: that nobody in America, nobody in the CIA knew anything about.

427
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 6: That was because it was buried in a secret rush

428
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 6: of the site. Esp researchers worry about did he look

429
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 6: in the future and describe as feedback, And the answer

430
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 6: is no, he did not do that because he was

431
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 6: dead before anybody in the West, before he could get

432
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 6: any place, got no feedback for the crystal clear description

433
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 6: of his spheres.

434
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Speaker 1: And will pause momentarily for a word from our sponsor,

435
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: and we're back now.

436
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: One thing that I really enjoyed in the film is

437
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: the way you take a lot of these drawings and

438
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: you overlay them over I'm assuming more modern aerial photography

439
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: of some of these locations, and sometimes they line up

440
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: in a very affecting way, like kind of creepy for

441
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: lack of a better term. My question though, is at

442
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: the time, this is just my ignorance about the technology

443
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: of the time, but was there not that level of

444
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: satellite photography available like how.

445
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: The underground I see, I see, And this was the

446
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: mid seventies, right.

447
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 6: For nineteen seventy four. See the photograph. We the CIA

448
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 6: did have photographs of the big crane, but that was

449
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 6: already a top secret photograph, very closely held, and they

450
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 6: had no idea what was in the building under the crane,

451
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: what are they making? And in fact, the reason for

452
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 6: the exercise is could the psychic describe the stuff on

453
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 6: the surface at Semi Pela Tinsk? And if you could

454
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 6: do that, could they then reveal what was going on

455
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 6: at this huge weapon factory.

456
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: And there's one question that kept popping into my mind

457
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: while watching Third Eye Spies, which was that on multiple

458
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: occasions people say that they that the program had support

459
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: from various branches of the government or intelligence or the military,

460
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: but that the CIA seemed to be, for lack of

461
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: a better word, they seemed to be the ones who

462
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: were pushing the breaks in your experience, and we totally

463
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: understand if that's something they can't be said on air.

464
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: What was it like working with the CIA? I mean, clearly,

465
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: the people in Third Eye Spies, like Christopher kit Green,

466
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: they clearly supported the project and believed in the science

467
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: behind it, but overall as an institution. What was the

468
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: CIA like as a funding partner or research partner.

469
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 6: I was a co founder in nineteen seventy two and

470
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 6: I left in nineteen eighty two when it became totally

471
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 6: classified and I could no longer publish anything that I

472
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 6: grew up in public. My father was a distinguished New

473
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 6: York publisher, so I grew up in the Purpose of

474
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 6: Life with their PubL right book and papers. So by

475
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 6: eighty two I could no longer publish anything, and I

476
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 6: felt that my time in graduate school was not spent

477
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 6: to be a psychic spy for the CIA, but rather

478
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 6: to understand how our awareness could transcend space and time

479
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 6: and tell people about it. But during my decade we

480
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 6: worked with John McMahon, who was the director of Intelligence

481
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 6: at CIA, A very smart guy trained as a lawyer,

482
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 6: who was totally on board with what we were doing

483
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 6: and very supportive. So CIA has given a lot of people,

484
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 6: a lot of problems, and killed a lot of people,

485
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 6: and a reprehensible organization, but they let us do what

486
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 6: we wanted to do. The deal we made with John McMahon,

487
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 6: head of Intelligence, is that we would spend half of

488
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 6: our time trying to understand psychic abilities, and in that

489
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 6: direction we would publish our findings in Nature magazine, the

490
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 6: English Distinguished Journal, and in the Proceedings of the Institute

491
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 6: of Electrical Engineers, which is the which would be my

492
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 6: traditional journal as a laser guy. So he published a

493
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 6: lengthy paper in the I Triple A Journal called Information

494
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 6: Transmission under Conditions of Sensory Shielding. From their point of view,

495
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 6: that looked like a microwave paper, no problem, and the

496
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 6: Information Transmission just happened to be esp But the CIA

497
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 6: had a lot of closed minded people there, but the

498
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 6: guys we were working with were very supportive. Bob Gates

499
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 6: became the head of CIA and became the Secretary Defense

500
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 6: eventually and forward nineteen ninety five he was on television

501
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 6: saying that the Sorry program did not provide any information

502
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 6: that was useful to anybody. And that was very shortly

503
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 6: after the Army Group I trained six Army intelligence officers

504
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 6: to create an Army Psychic Corps in Maryland. So the

505
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 6: Army had been became embarrassed at having to come to

506
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 6: SORI wherever they wanted to find something. So we had

507
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 6: recently found a downed airplane that the CIA couldn't find

508
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 6: a Russian plane crashed in Africa, and the CIA couldn't

509
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 6: find it because it was in the jungle, and the

510
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 6: photography doesn't penetrate the jungle, of course. So CIA came

511
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 6: to us and said, do you think your psychic could

512
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 6: find this airplane in northern Africa? And we worked with

513
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 6: Air Force Intelligence who also had a psychic, and between

514
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 6: us we drew a little circle, three mile diameter circle

515
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 6: between the river and the mountains to one side of

516
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 6: a village, and the CIA launched their helicopter to our

517
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 6: little circle, and as they landed in the circle, they

518
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 6: could see natives dragging big hunks of metal from the

519
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 6: river to the village, showing that they had already found

520
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 6: the airplane. So a California psychic led the CIA to

521
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 6: find this airplane that they were unable to find by

522
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 6: any other means. And our film and Third Eye Spies

523
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 6: opens up with Jimmy Carter talking about how during his presidency,

524
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 6: the most remarkable thing he had experienced was the locating

525
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 6: of a down Russian airplane by psychics in California.

526
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: And that's actually something that has an Atlanta connection to

527
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter being a native Atlanta. He gave a commencement

528
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: speech at Emory University. It's also featured in the film

529
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: where he I think the members of the audience were

530
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: able to submit questions and somebody mentioned this program or

531
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: this quote that he had mentioned that he had said,

532
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: and he bringing that up at that point, which I

533
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: believe was in the nineties.

534
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 6: It cost that helped blow our cover.

535
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 4: It caused some problems.

536
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: Can you explain why if that was already in the

537
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: public record him saying that, why was it such a

538
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: big deal for him to say it then? And like

539
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: was it didn't create renewed interest when at that point

540
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: it had become so classified.

541
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 6: And it wasn't in the It wasn't in the public

542
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 6: record until Jimmy Carter said it. It was that the

543
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 6: CIA knew that we had found it because we found

544
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 6: it for them, and the remote viewing operators at Fort

545
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 6: Meade knew about it, as did we, But the public

546
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 6: didn't know that there was a extensive ESP program going

547
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 6: on until Jimmy Carter announced it on television.

548
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: See I was miss I misunderstood that. I thought that

549
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: he had said it previously, because the footage in the

550
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: film is more grainy and black and white. I thought

551
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: it was like a comment that he had made a

552
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: long time ago, but that's not the case. He made

553
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 2: it for the very first time in the nineties at

554
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 2: that Emery commencement, and that's what blew your cover correct.

555
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 6: That's right, okay?

556
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's interesting that Robert Gates, of all people,

557
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: was the one who who said that he didn't see

558
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: some sort of significance, because wasn't wasn't he the same

559
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: person who as an analyst received the information about the

560
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: Russian sub and then called it a lucky guess even

561
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: though that's right?

562
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, he was on television lying his ass off,

563
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 6: saying that we never said anything worth while, didn't give

564
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 6: him any information. They didn't know. Joe mcmonagall was targeted

565
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 6: by the Fort Meat organization that he worked with. He

566
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 6: was one of the seven or eight psyche I trained

567
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 6: up Joe, along with six other people. I wouldn't say that.

568
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 6: I would never say on the air that I taught

569
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 6: Joe how to be psyched. He came to me psychic,

570
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 6: but I just showed him the moves for how to

571
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 6: do remote viewing and make use of this information. And

572
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 6: he became a prodigious psychic practitioner at Fort Meade, and

573
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 6: he was able to draw the sub he was targeted

574
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 6: on the building. There was a large building quarter mile

575
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 6: inland from the North Sea. They knew the lot of

576
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 6: activity was going there, and Joe said, well it was.

577
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 6: It was not a sub base. But Joe said, I

578
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 6: see them building this huge submarine. They're building a sub

579
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 6: twice as big as anything I've ever seen, is more

580
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 6: than five hundred feet long and twice the width of

581
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 6: an ordinary sub, as though they've stuck two subs together

582
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 6: side by side. So this is the biggest thing. Is

583
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 6: looked like a huge whale of a submarine, and they're

584
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 6: going to launch it in three months. And they launched

585
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 6: it in three months, and it was exactly what Joe

586
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 6: described as typhoon class submarine. No one had seen, No

587
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 6: one in the West had ever seen anything remotely like

588
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 6: this five hundred and fifty foot submarine that Joe drew

589
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 6: in detail three months before it was launched. And then

590
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 6: and then Gates was on the Ted Koppo Show saying

591
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 6: that we never I was in the film. I'm it

592
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 6: shows that I'm sitting with Joe and he just says

593
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 6: Gates is just lying. There's no other way to explain it,

594
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 6: because he knew about this and what he said back

595
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 6: to us it was just lucky.

596
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: Guess more with Russell targ after we take a quick

597
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: break to thank our sponsor, and now we are back

598
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: with more from Russell Tark. I have a question, So

599
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 2: when you talk about being able to train somebody to

600
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: do this, and it sounds to me like almost a

601
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: meditative process, that is a can to astral projection, I guess,

602
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 2: as it's known in the parlance of our time trade.

603
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose so.

604
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: To me, this begs the question of, you know, the

605
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: nature of science versus spirituality and the mind, the brain versus.

606
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 4: The soul, et cetera.

607
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: And this is something that I think we've been dancing

608
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: around a little bit in this conversation, but I would

609
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: love to hear how you view those differences.

610
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 6: We're still recovering from the Enlightenment, the big contribution of

611
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 6: the Enlightenment with Descartes, who was the author of the

612
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 6: Terrible Mind Brain Schism. He knew that there was survival

613
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 6: after death, but he absolutely wanted no part of science

614
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 6: dealing with spirituality and the church didn't want scientists creeping

615
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 6: around with the nature of the soul. It was a

616
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 6: heresy for a person who is not in the clergy

617
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 6: to start incur inquiring about the nature of the soul.

618
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 6: And science was just coming out from under the edge

619
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 6: of spirituality with Newton's laws and Copernicus and hard edged science.

620
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 6: So the separation between science and spirituality really came at

621
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 6: that point and became increasingly hard edged. Now this these

622
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 6: days you have people like Schrodinger saying consciousness is a

623
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 6: singular of which is no plural. Consciousness is everywhere, and

624
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 6: Shortinger said the most important discovery and quantum mechanics is entanglement.

625
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 6: So quantum mechanics has really saved us from the sism

626
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 6: created by Descartes that is now all of quantum mechanics,

627
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 6: the so called measurement problem that is also pioneered by Schrodinger,

628
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 6: and the same as cath problem. That cat is neither

629
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 6: alive nor not alive until you look and see that

630
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 6: paradox was invented two thousand years ago by a Buddhist

631
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 6: dharma master Narda Juna, who said that most things are

632
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 6: neither true nor not true, but that's outside of what

633
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 6: we're saying now. But to answer your question, there had

634
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 6: been a big citism between consciousness research and physics research,

635
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 6: and that has mended itself largely Now. Physics is very

636
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 6: interested in the nature of consciousness. So work that we're

637
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 6: doing now might have been seismatic fifty years ago, but

638
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 6: it's quite oh coralth these days.

639
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: That's fantastic news because this reminds me of something else.

640
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: To continue the thread of schisms, of mending and of

641
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 1: learning and scholarship in general. It seems that in some conversations,

642
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: certain researchers, professors, learned people, and so on, are concerned

643
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: about publicly sharing their opinions on one sort of research

644
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: or another publicly, whether in audio interviews or in print.

645
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 1: The trux of the question here is where is that

646
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: hesitancy coming from. Are researchers perhaps intimidated? Do they think

647
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: they may lose funding or if they're a professor, do

648
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: they think they may lose their position at their institute

649
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: of learning? And if so, is this a well founded fear,

650
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: is it genuine? Is it exaggerated? Where does this come from?

651
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 6: Well, what Plunk said in about nineteen hundred, you're never

652
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 6: going to convince the old folks that quantum mechanics is true.

653
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 6: You're just going to have to wait for them to

654
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 6: and the new people will discover that it's true. And

655
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 6: physics universities people are still by and large don't want

656
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 6: to get tired with the ESP brush that is the

657
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 6: old The older faculty is going to tease or laugh

658
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 6: at younger people who are interested in the ESP because

659
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 6: still still not permitted. But for people working quantum mechanics,

660
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 6: the idea of consciousness research UH is quite appropriate that

661
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 6: you could you could go to my making this up now,

662
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 6: but I guarantee that if you went to the internet

663
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 6: and look for consciousness and quantum mechanics, you would find

664
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 6: hundreds of papers so hot topic at the edge the

665
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 6: quantum mechanics because you have the nature you have, the

666
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 6: whole nature of consciousness is prograbs. The consciousness is efficacious.

667
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 6: That's the thing that people don't realize is that they

668
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 6: want to know consciousness material are not material. So I

669
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 6: would say that consciousness is neither material nor not material.

670
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 6: So it's a bad question because we know that the

671
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 6: thoughts of one person can affect the physiology of a

672
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 6: distant person. One of the most replicated experiments. In all

673
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 6: of ESP research is called distant mental influence on living

674
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 6: persons on living things. So you can see somebody's sitting

675
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 6: in a distant laboratory and on a random schedule you're

676
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 6: supposed to excite them or put them to sleep, and

677
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 6: then you can look at a later time and their

678
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 6: brain waves or heart rate will show that when I

679
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 6: was trying to excite them, they became excited, even though

680
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 6: they might have been fifty meters away. So the fact

681
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 6: that so consciousness is able to do stuff, So that

682
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 6: gives a kind of physical reality to consciousness because it's efficacious.

683
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 6: It's not it's not an EPI phenomena. My consciousness is

684
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 6: able to move the dial, so because my consciousness demands

685
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 6: cognizance as a real thing and not an EPI phenomena.

686
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 6: But we've come to see how the film is about

687
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 6: the true story of CIA psychic spying. So we've come

688
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 6: quite quite a way that I'm sort of unreconstructed logical

689
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 6: positivist that I grew up doing experiments where I could

690
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 6: lay the experiment dex to the theory and say here's

691
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 6: what's supposed to happen, here's what did happen. Do we

692
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,479
Speaker 6: know what's going on? So I really believe in good

693
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 6: experiments stronger than good theory, And say why did I

694
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 6: What makes you believe in he has paid targ And

695
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 6: I said, well, nineteen eighty four, after I left SRI,

696
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 6: I started a group called Delphi Associates. Forecasting changed in

697
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 6: the silver market, and by the time we got set

698
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 6: up with a broker and an investor, we thought that

699
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 6: we understood how to do that. At the end of

700
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 6: eighty four, we made nine adventures into the silver market

701
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 6: to determine whether silver goes up a little, or goes

702
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 6: up a lot, down a little, or down a lot,

703
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 6: and all nine of our forecasts were correct. Spot on.

704
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 6: I made one hundred and twenty thousand dollars and in

705
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty four that was a lot of money. And

706
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 6: we're on the front page of the Wall Street Journal

707
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 6: talking about the psychic firm corner of the silver market.

708
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 6: So doing anything nine times in a row in life

709
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 6: is remarkable. And doing it in a four choice game

710
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 6: up a little, up a lot, down a little down

711
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 6: in a lot is close to odds of one or

712
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 6: one hundred thousands.

713
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: And that's something people are listening to because as as

714
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: you show in the film, there have been people from

715
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: institutes around the world or countries around the world who

716
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: have traveled to attempt to learn these techniques, specifically some Russian,

717
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: some Russian individuals and groups. And this leads us to

718
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: maybe one of the biggest questions that people have listening

719
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: to this, or biggest series of related questions, why aren't

720
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: there publicly working government assets doing this in the field today?

721
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: And also do you believe that there may still be

722
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: some somewhere out there government funded research occurring along these lines,

723
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: maybe not in the public sphere anymore, maybe it went underground,

724
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: or maybe they stopped. What's your take on this?

725
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 6: Well, in the film and Third Eye Spies, we have

726
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 6: Kit Green on camera saying that the best of his knowledge,

727
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 6: there is still a underground program at the CIA with

728
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 6: people doing remote viewing. For example, why wouldn't there be

729
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 6: The last effort that Pep Price did at CIA was

730
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 6: looking into the code room in the Libyan embassy and

731
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 6: he was able to penetrate that embassy, find the code room,

732
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 6: enter it and describe it to the satisfaction of the

733
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 6: CIA who had once been there before. And I had

734
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 6: trained up two CIA operatives who came to us to

735
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 6: see people were always checking up on us to make

736
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 6: sure there's no loophole in what we're doing. So we

737
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 6: had a man who has been a lock picker and

738
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 6: a woman who was a mechanical engineer, both high level

739
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 6: CIA operators who came to our lab wanted to see

740
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 6: how we're doing experiments and then they wanted to do

741
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 6: it themselves. So we had to make sure that our

742
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 6: protocol was as tight and secure as possible, and both

743
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 6: of them did highly successful remote viewings of distant places

744
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 6: that we would lock them into our room and then

745
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 6: tape the door shut because we didn't trust them either.

746
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 6: Then Hanla and I would go to some random place

747
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 6: and both of them were able to give exquisite, accurate

748
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 6: descriptions of where we were hiding. And Kit Green said

749
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 6: that in Pat Price's last days at SRI, he was

750
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 6: working with these two highly trained CIA operatives doing remote

751
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 6: viewing at the CIA. He said, according to his conversation

752
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 6: with the Director of Intelligence right now and the film

753
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 6: is made, that he believed that there's still remote doing

754
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 6: going on in the basement of the CIA, and why

755
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 6: wouldn't there.

756
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: Be unfortunately for all of us, especially for you, and

757
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: I know.

758
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 2: Oh man, we had like fifty questions here, but you know,

759
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 2: I mean, podcasting technically is an infinite medium, but we

760
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 2: do try to keep it a little bit tight if possible.

761
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 6: Well, you can find the film at all digital platforms

762
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 6: starting nine o'clock tonight.

763
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 2: That's perfect, fantastic, Yeah, and we highly recommend the film.

764
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: Both Ben and I watched it is I plan on

765
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 2: watching it again immediately. There's so much stuff in there

766
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 2: that we did not cover, which is a good thing.

767
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: So go see the film. You will find out a

768
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 2: world of information about this, this entire kind of clandestine

769
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: universe of psychic spies.

770
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: Yes, Russell Targ, thank you so much for your time today.

771
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: Russell Targ folks American physicist, parapsychologist and author, world renowned

772
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: pioneer in the field of remote viewing. And that's not

773
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: our opinion, now, that's the opinion of the CIA very much.

774
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: So who again, are very hard to please, So thank

775
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us today for the show.

776
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for the opportunity and happy to

777
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 6: chat with you.

778
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: So we did not get to a significant amount of

779
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: the stuff that we wanted to explore with Russell Targ today.

780
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: But I have to say, what a delightful conversation, what

781
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: a fascinating story.

782
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 2: It was absolutely fascinating and just a delightful human being

783
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 2: to talk to. It's such an interesting combination of the

784
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: love for the metaphysical and the physical and his separation

785
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 2: of the mind and brain and soul.

786
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 4: All of that just really hit home for me.

787
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 2: And he was so generous with his time that even

788
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,959
Speaker 2: after we wrapped the interview, there were topics we wanted

789
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 2: to explore more, and he was just like, yeah, just

790
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: call me, I'll come back.

791
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 4: So look for that.

792
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so look for him to in the meantime. We

793
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: don't have questions just for Russell Targ, of course not.

794
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: If you know this show well enough, you know that

795
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: we always end with questions for you. There's a lot

796
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: of stuff that we didn't get to in our initial conversation,

797
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: but we want to know what related topics you believe

798
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: we should explore in the future. We'd also like to

799
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: hear your take on this. Do you think ESP remote viewing, claravoyance,

800
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: call it what you wish? Do you think there is

801
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,479
Speaker 1: some sand to it? And regardless of where you fall

802
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: in the debate, what do you think the future of

803
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: this research holds. I'm also very interested to see for

804
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 1: any of us listening who live in the ivory towers

805
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: of academia, have you ever felt that you were intimidated

806
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: or bullied away from conducting a particular type of research?

807
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: And if so, what?

808
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: And I had a question for you, Ben off Air,

809
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 2: was how is this different from some of the cold

810
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 2: reading techniques that we associate with mentalists and hypnotists that

811
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 2: would be doing more of a parlor trick rather than

812
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 2: something like this that seems to really have some scientific

813
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: sand behind it.

814
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 4: And you had a really good answer for that.

815
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there are So there are two different types

816
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: of ways that someone who's perpetrating a fraud or a

817
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: hoax would convince their mark that they had psychic powers.

818
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: One way is called cold reading. Cold reading is when

819
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: you're fishing for things. That's when you hear someone like

820
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: was that guy a few years ago John Edwards say,

821
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: could speak with.

822
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 4: A pickup artist?

823
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, different, yes exactly, And he would say he

824
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: would say stuff like, oh okay, I'm feeling out in

825
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: the crowd, something with a j Jeremy John a j

826
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: John John Jay, and they would they would go around

827
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: like that until someone says, yes, I know someone Jeremy,

828
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: and then say, okay, there, I think they're They like colors, right,

829
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: they had they had a favorite color. And then they'll

830
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,959
Speaker 1: say their favorite color was blue, and they're like, yes,

831
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: that's right blue. That's cold reading. The psecond kind is

832
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: hot reading. Hot reading is when you straight up do

833
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,839
Speaker 1: research beforehand. You google our pal Matt Frederick, you learn

834
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: about his life, and then when you meet him you

835
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: pretend that you are getting a psychic impression. This would

836
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: be a little different the way that they're explaining the

837
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: coordinate sending or remote sensing is such that the person

838
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 1: who is the interviewer. The role Russell targ was playing

839
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: was legitimate on his part because he did not have

840
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: knowledge of where his associate was taking people. They had

841
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: no predetermined understanding what that location would be. So if

842
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: he didn't know, he could not cold read or lead

843
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: the person attempting to remote view. But that all depends

844
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 1: on whether or not they had that information. It doesn't

845
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: sound like they did.

846
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: Does not, And that's something that I meant to ask,

847
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 2: But we just had so much stuff to cover that

848
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 2: it slipped my mind, but I think that's a really

849
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: good explanation.

850
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: Who killed Pat Preisnel Well.

851
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 2: Exactly again, subject for another day. In the meantime, if

852
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 2: you want to reach out to us, you can do

853
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: so on our Facebook group. Here's where it gets crazy,

854
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 2: where you can post questions. And I think we're going

855
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: to start doing a thing where we start like a

856
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 2: thread for each episode, or even let people know in

857
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: advance what the next episode is going to be.

858
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 4: We've talked about doing that.

859
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 7: Yep, the episode three and that's the end of this

860
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 7: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about

861
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 7: this episode, you can get into contact with us in

862
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 7: a number of different ways. One of the best is

863
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 7: to give us a call. Our number is one eight

864
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 7: three three STDWYTK. If you don't want to do that,

865
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 7: you can send us a good old fashioned email.

866
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 5: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

867
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

868
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

869
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.