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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian Sager,

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Speaker 1: So Robert. When I was five years old, I made

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Speaker 1: a huge mistake. I thought it would be a good

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Speaker 1: idea to read Peter Benchley's novel Jaws while I was

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Speaker 1: on vacation with my family on Cape Cod in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 1: which is generally where Jaws is supposed to be set.

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Speaker 1: I think, what do they call it in the movie?

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Speaker 1: Is it amity? Something like that? I believe so, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I was terrified of going in the ocean the

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Speaker 1: entire time that I was visiting the family there, and

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Speaker 1: my father's side of the family, they're all, you know,

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Speaker 1: ocean dwellers. Basically, they're like fisherman and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: go out and go out on the boat and do

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Speaker 1: fishing and stuff. And I was just terrified the whole time,

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Speaker 1: like I wouldn't get in the water. Uh. And it

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Speaker 1: was a big mistake. So sharks have been scary to

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Speaker 1: me for a long time. I think Just three D

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Speaker 1: was the first scary shark movie that I ever saw.

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Speaker 1: What about You, Oh, you know, I can't remember when

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Speaker 1: I Jaws was one of those films that since they

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Speaker 1: played it on TV all the time, I think I

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Speaker 1: just absorbed it long before I ever actually gave it

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Speaker 1: a start to finish viewing. But on top of that,

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Speaker 1: I feel like my life has been filled with just

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Speaker 1: absorption of of multiple bad shark movies over the years.

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Speaker 1: You know, um, most of them Jaws knockoffs, because there's

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Speaker 1: just a tremendous wealth of of terrible often like Italian

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Speaker 1: and Spanish Jaws rip offs, and there's there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of interesting stuff going on there because in this episode,

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Speaker 1: as we talk about sharks, and as we uh we

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Speaker 1: talked to Mara Heart, author of Sex in the Sea

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Speaker 1: about sharks, when get into shark conservation and Shark Week

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Speaker 1: and and these other issues, you know, we talk about

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Speaker 1: how we villainize them and we focus on their ferocious nature,

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Speaker 1: and certainly all of these monster movies do that. But

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Speaker 1: then you also you get into this idea of like

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Speaker 1: what are we what are we doing with these shark stories,

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Speaker 1: like is there this there's this weird kind of um

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Speaker 1: like fetishization of giant uh see carnivores like eating bikini women.

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Speaker 1: I've I've I've always find it like strangely perverse. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is a weird thing going on there. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you can trace the origin of that back to

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Speaker 1: the creature of the Black Lagoon. Maybe that's another episode,

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Speaker 1: but there is a fascination with like predatory underwater creatures

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Speaker 1: eating human women for some reason. But I want to

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Speaker 1: point out, though, we do this thing outside of the

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Speaker 1: podcast that not all of our listeners know about called

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Speaker 1: Trailer Talk, where once a week we go on Facebook

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Speaker 1: Live you Me and Joe, and we put together a

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Speaker 1: bunch of trailers from usually bad horror movies or sci

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Speaker 1: fi movies across the years related to whatever topic we're

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Speaker 1: talking about on the podcast that week. Man, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have fun with this one, because there's a whole Wicki

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Speaker 1: entry just on killer Shark films and it's like fifty films. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's insane how many. Again, most of these are

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Speaker 1: really essentially just Jaws knockoffs and they just made one

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Speaker 1: after the other, just add nauseam, and most of them

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Speaker 1: do not have a creative idea added to. Occasionally you're

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Speaker 1: not across the film, like I believe it's what Lucio

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Speaker 1: fool see Zombie where you have that wonderful scene where

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Speaker 1: a zombie fights a shark underwater. I seen that. We'll

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Speaker 1: have to one. We'll have to work with with Ramsey,

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Speaker 1: our producer on that too, to edit it because I

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Speaker 1: think there's a little Nudi in that one, because like

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Speaker 1: because it's a shark fighting a zombie and there's like

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Speaker 1: a topless lady swimming. Geez. This is the This is

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Speaker 1: the level of cinematic uh Art. That deal the one

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Speaker 1: that I always think of that's not Jaws, that I

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Speaker 1: always keep returning to, and I know it's a favorite

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Speaker 1: of Joe's because he talks about it a lot. Is

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Speaker 1: Deep Blue Sea. It's got that fabulous l O cool

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Speaker 1: j music video connected to it. But it also stars

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Speaker 1: my favorite sci fi heart throb that we've talked about

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Speaker 1: on the show before, Thomas Jane. Oh yeah he uh

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Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, he perfects a method for swimming

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Speaker 1: with sharks where he like grabs their fins and rides them.

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Speaker 1: It is very weird. We should rewatch that for the

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Speaker 1: for the Facebook Life, but for today's episode, really, what

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Speaker 1: our focus is going to be on is the opposite

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Speaker 1: of these Killer Shark movies, and that's what we end

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Speaker 1: up talking tomorrow about, is that really, while we've fetishized

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Speaker 1: these sharks as killing machines, they're more life machines than

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Speaker 1: anything else. They have a variety of ways of reproducing

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Speaker 1: and making sure that their genetic heritage is passed on. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so much more going on with

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Speaker 1: sharks beyond just their their gnashing teeth and uh and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know they're they're they're chopping at cages with divers

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Speaker 1: in them. And that's what we hope to really ultimately

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Speaker 1: reflecting this in this episode today. So before we before

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Speaker 1: we get into the interview with Mara Uh, we thought

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Speaker 1: we would just give a little bit of set up here.

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Speaker 1: So for starters, what are sharks? Well, this is one

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Speaker 1: of those areas where you see them in films and

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Speaker 1: on TV and if you think you know, but but

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Speaker 1: when you actually start breaking it down, it's it's really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: So sharks date back to the to the Ortivisitian period

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Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty four twenty million years ago. This

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Speaker 1: was before land vertebrates existed and before many plants had

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Speaker 1: colonized the continents. So sharks are older than dinosaurs when

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Speaker 1: in the grander scheme of sharks, now modern sharks, sharks,

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Speaker 1: as we know that these only go back around one

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Speaker 1: hundred million years. Yeah, but they are so they are

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Speaker 1: they are established players and in the sea. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: of course one of the other if you if you

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Speaker 1: know very little about sharks, one thing you probably know

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Speaker 1: for sure is that they don't have hard bones. They

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Speaker 1: have cartilage, right, the members of the class condrict these

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Speaker 1: and this includes other cartilage based fishes as well, raised, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And as we talk tomorrow, she's gonna end up referencing

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Speaker 1: some of these shark ken as well. Yeah, they're related.

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Speaker 1: It keeps coming up in our notes as well. So

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Speaker 1: speaking of Mara, who's Mara? Oh yeah, well Mara heart.

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Speaker 1: She is a coral reef ecologist by training, and she's

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Speaker 1: currently a research co director for Future of Fish flip Labs.

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Speaker 1: So Mara assists entrepreneurs and innovators with finding solutions to

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Speaker 1: the global over fishing crisis and her past work includes ecological, historical,

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Speaker 1: and social science research on a range of topics, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, from fisheries to climate change impacts on ocean

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Speaker 1: life and she's the author of this wonderful book that

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Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before. Sex and the

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Speaker 1: Sea are intimate connection with sex, changing fish, romantic lobsters,

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Speaker 1: kinky squid, and other salty erotica of the deep. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Mara has been a guest with us twice

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Speaker 1: before this. She is so much fun to talk to

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Speaker 1: because she's so passionate about this stuff and really down

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Speaker 1: to earth about it at the same time. So I

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Speaker 1: feel like she's just so great at communicating marine biology.

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Speaker 1: We've talked to her about let's see osadas worms and

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Speaker 1: then coral reefs last year, and so we figured, hey,

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Speaker 1: shark weeks coming up. This is the time of year

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Speaker 1: when people are thinking about sharks. But why don't we

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Speaker 1: spend this in a different light, Because while yes, they're

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Speaker 1: scary and we have developed this entire like fear culture

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Speaker 1: around them, they are incredibly weird when it comes down

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Speaker 1: to how they mate and how they reproduce baby sharks.

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Speaker 1: So all right, let's just start off with some facts

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Speaker 1: about shark reproduction. Sexually, in sharks, they begin with the

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Speaker 1: production of sperm and eggs. But here's the thing, they

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Speaker 1: don't always coincide so determining when a female can get

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Speaker 1: pregnant gets tricky, and we talk about this in the

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Speaker 1: interview with Mara. Especially because they have that internal fertilization system,

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Speaker 1: the females can actually save sperm from sexual encounter with

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Speaker 1: a male shark, and that produces a limited number of

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Speaker 1: offspring per cycle. Now, while some small sharks will lay

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Speaker 1: eggs on the ocean floor, large sharks will give birth.

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Speaker 1: So I want to give some clarity between three different

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Speaker 1: kinds of sexual reproduction with sharks. The first is called oviparity,

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Speaker 1: and this is when sharks lay eggs on an ocean

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Speaker 1: floor and these eggs are encased in a leathery egg

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Speaker 1: case that's called a mermaid's purse. That's a very nice

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Speaker 1: little name for for for what I imagine is like

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Speaker 1: an alien egg. That's what and picturing in my head

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Speaker 1: is like face hugger egg. It takes between six to

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Speaker 1: nine months for them to hatch, and they have features

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Speaker 1: like tendrils, horns, and sticky mucous filaments. So these are

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Speaker 1: not pretty eggs. Oh, I've seen them. They have their

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Speaker 1: own a charm. Yeah. Well, the reason why they have

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Speaker 1: all these things is they helped the eggs stick to

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Speaker 1: the seabed. It's not just like a fashion statement. It's

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Speaker 1: part of adhering to the ocean floor. So the second

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Speaker 1: kind is ova viviparity, and this is when sharks carry

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Speaker 1: the eggs in their body, so instead of actually having

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Speaker 1: you know, laying the eggs and having the mermaids purse

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Speaker 1: come out, they are in thin membrane coverings inside the

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Speaker 1: mother's shark. Now, in some species, baby sharks will stay

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Speaker 1: inside the mother even after they hatch, and they will

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Speaker 1: swim around inside the mother eating unfertilized eggs. We talk

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Speaker 1: about this at length with Mara with regard to u

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Speaker 1: sand tiger sharks in particular. But this practice actually has

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Speaker 1: a name, and this is sharks get the best names

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Speaker 1: for things. Oh faiji, that's the that's the name for

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Speaker 1: when these baby sharks hatch and eat their unfertilized eggs

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Speaker 1: surrounding them. Then you've got the third kind, which is viviparity,

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Speaker 1: and this is when a shark gives a live birth

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Speaker 1: with no eggs. It's very similar to mammalion reproduction, except

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Speaker 1: the fact that the pups, which is what you refer

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Speaker 1: to baby sharks as, are immediately independent, and they've got

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Speaker 1: to fend for themselves after birth. So there's no like, uh,

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Speaker 1: like a training session where like the pups hang around

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Speaker 1: with the mother for a long time afterwards and learn

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Speaker 1: the ways of the ocean. They're just on their own right.

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Speaker 1: And we'll discuss this at length with Mara in the interview.

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Speaker 1: And another thing we talked tomorrow about is sharks a

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Speaker 1: sexual reproduction. So this is something we've just been learning

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Speaker 1: about in the last couple of years. There are a

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Speaker 1: few types of sharks that are known to be able

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Speaker 1: to reproduce without having a male fertilize their eggs, and

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Speaker 1: the process is known as parthenogenesis. Uh. The kinds of

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Speaker 1: sharks that we know about right now that can do this,

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Speaker 1: or the bonnet head, which is a type of hammer head,

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Speaker 1: the black tip and zebra sharks. Now, the first one

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Speaker 1: of these was recorded in captivity in two thousand one

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Speaker 1: in Nebraska, of all places, Nebraska's aquarium. The baby shark

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Speaker 1: the pup was actually killed by another fish shortly after birth.

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Speaker 1: But at first this was thought to be another case

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Speaker 1: of the sharks storing sperm so they could fertilize their

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Speaker 1: eggs later, but testing reveals that some of these cases,

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Speaker 1: actually the DNA is only the mothers, so it indicates

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Speaker 1: that there's a sexual reproduction going on. And we talked

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Speaker 1: tomorrow at length about this and the you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of the positives and negatives for female sharks on this

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Speaker 1: Other vertic bit species that can do this include turkeys,

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Speaker 1: komodo dragons, snakes and rays and in fact, eagle rays

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Speaker 1: and Boa constrictors are the only other species that have

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Speaker 1: done this in captivity. So the process itself is something

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Speaker 1: that we'll talk about with Mara. It's it's fairly uncommon

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Speaker 1: in a species when they've already had sex though, and sharks,

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Speaker 1: the other thing that's kind of interesting about their sexual

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Speaker 1: and asexual reproduction is that they can switch back and forth.

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Speaker 1: So this is kind of a last resort tactic when

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Speaker 1: they can't find another mate. It's not something that they're

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Speaker 1: doing all the time now. Fun fact, and Mara briefly

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Speaker 1: mentions this, but let's try to describe it here so

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Speaker 1: that you have a better idea going into this interview.

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Speaker 1: Male sharks actually have two they're not penises, but let's

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Speaker 1: call them penises and quotes. They're called claspers and these

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Speaker 1: are grooved organs that deposit their sperm and envelop along

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Speaker 1: the inner margin of each of their pelvic fins. And

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Speaker 1: Mara clarified for us off air, these are not separate organs.

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Speaker 1: They are part of the fin itself. But they only

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Speaker 1: use one of these at a time for sex. And

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Speaker 1: an inserted claspers tip will unfold and anchor in a

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Speaker 1: female and it uses these spike like clasper spurs to

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Speaker 1: do so it just sounds generally kind of awful. Yeah. There,

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Speaker 1: there's definitely a violent, violent nature to shark reproduction, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's one of the things that we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: with with Mara at length. Um like and and actually

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Speaker 1: how it ends up playing into reproductive strategies for for

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Speaker 1: the shark species. Yeah, absolutely, So. Okay, so we've got

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Speaker 1: sexual reproduction, whether it's laying eggs on the floor, carrying

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Speaker 1: the eggs in their body, or giving life birth. Then

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Speaker 1: you've also got this a sexual reproduction. You've got these

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Speaker 1: males swimming around with two penises that have barbs on um.

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Speaker 1: How could it get any weirder? Well, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that the sand tiger shark actually has cannibalistic babies inside

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Speaker 1: of it and we will talk with Mara at length

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Speaker 1: about this. I I like to refer to these as

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Speaker 1: a in honor of Chud, one of our favorite movies. Here,

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Speaker 1: it's stuff to blow your mind. I'm gonna call these

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Speaker 1: sudd cannibalistic shark underwater dwellers. Well, in the same tradition

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Speaker 1: of Chud, where you have the you have it stand

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Speaker 1: for different things. Yeah, I would say you could also

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Speaker 1: have a stand for cannibalistic shark utero dwells. Perfect. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's perfect. Why we're gonna go into this at length

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Speaker 1: with Mara, but we're gonna give you a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a primer that brace yourselves. This one. This is rough.

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Speaker 1: So in this species of shark, there's actually only eight

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Speaker 1: to ten embryos, but only one will survive birth, and

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Speaker 1: this is per uterus in these sharks. Because these sharks

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Speaker 1: have two utero they have a right one and a

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Speaker 1: left one, and the way that they survive is by

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Speaker 1: eating all of their born brothers and sisters. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: this is a whole process called adele phopheji that we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about at length with Mara. But basically,

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Speaker 1: the idea here is that he's the first baby that's born, Uh,

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Speaker 1: breaks out, swims around and eats in a quote kill now,

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Speaker 1: consume later fashion. Uh, they basically kill all their siblings

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Speaker 1: and then for weeks afterwards devour their siblings inside their

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Speaker 1: mother so that they're born really big. They're born at

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Speaker 1: like three ft long. All right, Well, we're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: jump right into the interview with Sex and the Sea

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Speaker 1: author Mara J. Hart. Well, Well, first of all, thanks

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Speaker 1: for taking time out of your day to chat with

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Speaker 1: us again to come back on the program and discuss

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Speaker 1: uh some marine biology. First, we just, I guess want

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Speaker 1: to know how's your summer going. What are you working on.

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Speaker 1: My summer is going well, and I am I'm working

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Speaker 1: on a whole bunch of stuff so um for a

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Speaker 1: future of fish where I work full time. I'm digging in.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to make seafood supply chains more traceable. So

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Speaker 1: that's very exciting and has to do with a lot

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Speaker 1: of trying to curb someone with the issues we have

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Speaker 1: in the seafood world. And then on the Sex and

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Speaker 1: the seaside, I'm working right now, I'm actually trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how our current administration's new tactics are are

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Speaker 1: going to be affecting sex in the sea. So for example, um,

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Speaker 1: President Trump just opened the Atlantic toil or wants to

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Speaker 1: open it to um offshore drilling again, and um they

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Speaker 1: use these massive foundaries to do that. And there's some

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Speaker 1: big concerns about how how those exploration activities affect marine

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Speaker 1: life and sound in particular, can be really disruptive for sex.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, trying to work my way through, um, trying

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Speaker 1: to explain what some of those those impacts maybe so

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Speaker 1: that we can maybe ward off some of the worst

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Speaker 1: of them. Wow, I hadn't even considered that. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: are you working like on an article or something along

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Speaker 1: those great, let us know when it's published. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: I will. It's uh, yeah, it's it's fascinating because and

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Speaker 1: it's a really interesting situation because you have it's not

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not down the normal political line, because

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Speaker 1: you actually have a lot of industry, the commercial fisheries,

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Speaker 1: the tourism industry. So a lot of the businesses are saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, when you go out and do this,

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Speaker 1: it like scatters the fish for weeks or disrupts certain

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Speaker 1: spawning habitat and spawning events so they don't come back

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Speaker 1: and you miss a season and that can really mess

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Speaker 1: up things for the future. So it's a very very

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Speaker 1: interesting um dynamic, and I'm trying to figure out exactly

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Speaker 1: what we can maybe be doing about it. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: just kind of raised the alarm for a terrible sound pun.

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Speaker 1: I guess back my summer and chasing kids around and

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure they have some screen on well.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of sort of taglines and slogans and all. One

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Speaker 1: of the sort of slogans we were kicking around for

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Speaker 1: this episode. This is Christians creation, so I can't take

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Speaker 1: credit for it, but we're thinking sharks life machines, not

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Speaker 1: death machines. Yeah, because because it seems like just as

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Speaker 1: much as people obsess over the you know, sharks, as

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Speaker 1: these killing machines, especially around this time of year was

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Speaker 1: Shark Week, that when you do the research and you

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Speaker 1: look at their reproductive system, it's like, no matter what,

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Speaker 1: these things are going to make babies. So yes, in

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Speaker 1: the sense that they're extremely diverse in how they do

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Speaker 1: it across across the animals known as sharks um and

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Speaker 1: especially then if you throw in rays, the diversity of

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Speaker 1: reproduction is amazing, But some species and some of their

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Speaker 1: strategies are really really vulnerable to disruption. So they'll make

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Speaker 1: babies for sure, but they don't make a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: They're like fish, And that's the big thing that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people miss um. And it's understandable.

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Speaker 1: You think a shark is like a fish, but they're

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Speaker 1: actually they separated, you know, almost half a billion years ago,

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Speaker 1: so it's um. They've been on a very different path

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Speaker 1: and there in their reproduction reflects that, and it can't

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Speaker 1: it can't handle it can't handle the same kind of

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Speaker 1: level of pressure from fishing, and they're really susceptible to

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Speaker 1: other other impacts too. So yes, though I like the

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Speaker 1: title in the sense that it reflects that they really

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Speaker 1: are an extremely diverse group. When it comes to reproduction.

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Speaker 1: You can find everything from egg laying all the way

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Speaker 1: through live births and tons of really weird stuff in between.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if a lot of the branding that

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Speaker 1: sharks get, especially you know, especially the great whites and

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Speaker 1: and some of these more cinematic sharks we brand them

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Speaker 1: is so ferocious that we we just lose sight of

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Speaker 1: the fact that that their their place in the ecosystem

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Speaker 1: could be so ultimately fragile. Absolutely, and nature is a

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Speaker 1: dynamic balance, right, So there's always things that are trying

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Speaker 1: to grow more and increase their population and increase their offspring,

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Speaker 1: and then there are factors that come in and make

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Speaker 1: sure that no species overtakes everything, right, It's it's that's

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Speaker 1: what an ecosystem is. It's all of these opposing forces

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Speaker 1: of prey and predator, um of reproduction and death that

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Speaker 1: keep everything kind of at a level that's in in

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Speaker 1: some sort of balance. And that doesn't mean it's um frozen.

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Speaker 1: It just means that it's balanced. But if you take

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Speaker 1: all of that predatory pressure away, if you did remove

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Speaker 1: these big predators, which is what in the ocean we

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Speaker 1: tend to do um, which is opposite right to on land.

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Speaker 1: In the ocean we eat all the big stuff to

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Speaker 1: tune out the sharks group or snapper. These are all

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Speaker 1: predatory species cod they're all the top predators. You remove

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Speaker 1: that and then there's nothing to keep in check the

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Speaker 1: growth of these smaller types of species that are meant

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Speaker 1: to grow fast and reproduce fast so that they can

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Speaker 1: deal with that predation. And so then they kind of

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Speaker 1: spin out of control that throws the whole system out

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Speaker 1: of balance. So sharks are really really important, um, in

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Speaker 1: terms of keeping an ecosystem in the ocean healthy, and

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Speaker 1: we've hit them pretty hard. I think the numbers about

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Speaker 1: a hundred million sharks are taken out of the water

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Speaker 1: that we know of by commercial fisheries each year, and

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Speaker 1: then of course there's a lot of illegal fishing for

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Speaker 1: sharks as well. So yeah, they're really important and they're

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Speaker 1: really cool. Again, there are really ancient, very distinct lineage there.

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Speaker 1: They they're they're just rad in terms of the stuff

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Speaker 1: that they do, um, and it's we don't see it

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Speaker 1: anywhere else. Uh So for just simple diversity sake and

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Speaker 1: fascination sake. Uh, they're amazing. Yeah. I think from our perspective,

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Speaker 1: like doing the research leading up to this, all the

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Speaker 1: variety of ways that they reproduce are so unique and odd.

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Speaker 1: It's just shocking to me that that's not the stuff

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Speaker 1: that is in the headlines, you know, or that like

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Speaker 1: I featured in Shark Week versus all the other you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be shark sex week, Yeah exactly, Yeah, it would

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Speaker 1: be so rad um. Yeah, and it goes on and on,

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Speaker 1: and there's still so much we're figuring out. But they

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Speaker 1: really yeah, they really really do. And some stuff is

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Speaker 1: so similar to mammals it really starts to kind of

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Speaker 1: um mirror what we think of in our own kind

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Speaker 1: of group of animals. And then they do stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: way on the other end that's more like chicken and fish,

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Speaker 1: you know, laying eggs and having a totally different strategy

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Speaker 1: there so and everything yeah, in between, and then off

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Speaker 1: on tangents that we don't see on land, well in particular,

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Speaker 1: I think you're referring to to live birth. They're correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean little baby sharks are born with belly buttons.

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Speaker 1: It's like we are, which is really cool. Uh. They're

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Speaker 1: called umbilical scars, and they do actually heal up and

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Speaker 1: go away. So it's slightly different in in many species

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Speaker 1: especially it's it's in the larger sharks are the ones

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Speaker 1: actually people tend to be more familiar with. The mothers

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Speaker 1: give birth to a lot young uh, and they have

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Speaker 1: an umbilical cord. It's attached to a placenta. The way

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Speaker 1: the placenta works and sharks is different. It's not attached

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Speaker 1: to the female and connected to the female in the

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Speaker 1: same way, but it is a very energy intense process

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Speaker 1: for the female to deliver these these young and um

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Speaker 1: they're born when at a time live from the mother

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Speaker 1: and they sort of unlike mammals that are born fully

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Speaker 1: fun tional and ready to swim off, so there's no

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Speaker 1: maternal care. Um. In fact, they sort of come out

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Speaker 1: of her and will swim very rapidly to break free

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Speaker 1: of their embolical cord and then they slim off and

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00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: that's it. But the process of pregnancy she is carrying

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Speaker 1: inside her, yeah, developing embryos and live fetuses, and then

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Speaker 1: they take off. So it's it's pretty neat and they're

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Speaker 1: they're really cute and they're born. I love baby baby.

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Speaker 1: Sharks are adorable. They really are. Uh, this is this

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Speaker 1: reminds me. Uh. Joe and I reached the recently recorded

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Speaker 1: an episode where we talked about various sort of fossil

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Speaker 1: action scenes, and thesaurs came up some of the live

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Speaker 1: births that are attributed to them, and I was I

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Speaker 1: was really struck, and I'm struck now thinking about the

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00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: sharks as well, that you have all these different forms

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Speaker 1: of large predatory aquatic creatures and they all sort of

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Speaker 1: evolve into sort of similar forms, you know that they

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Speaker 1: and and and end up depending on live births. That's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: And I know there's one or two amazing fossils that

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Speaker 1: show in the ideas store like that. Isn't there like

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Speaker 1: one where you can see the baby inside. I've seen

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Speaker 1: that somewhere. Yeah, so yeah, it is amazing and I

427
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: think you know, part of the strategy there is that

428
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: it is very resource intense for the female, but once

429
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: those puffs are born, their likelihood of survival is very

430
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: very high, So they sort of are getting them through

431
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: that um, that early stage of um sort of mass

432
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: mortality that that fish larvae occur. You know, fish are

433
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: putting out millions and millions and a very very small

434
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: percentage of those eggs will ever be fertilized and then

435
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: a very very small percentage will ever grow to become

436
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: an adult, whereas in sharks. Yeah, it's it's a different approach.

437
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: It's put a little bit more time and energy into

438
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: into rearing inside the young, but it also has to

439
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: do with this internal fertilization, right, So it's this funamount

440
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: difference between being able to brood your young internally in

441
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: the female body be able to fertilize the eggs inside

442
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: the female, which again has some advantages in the sense

443
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: of making sure that there's less space, um less diffusion,

444
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: and so it could just be a result of that.

445
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: Is one of the ways that internal fertilization works well

446
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: is that you have the potential to real live young.

447
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: But again instructs you see also internal fertilization leading to

448
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: egg lane or this in between, where the females will

449
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: have eggs, but the eggs are kept inside the female

450
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: for quite a long time, so that by the time

451
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: she lays the eggs there's only a couple of days

452
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: before they hatch. So again you have all of these

453
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: different kind of gradations and in turn of how they

454
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: do it. But it is neat that you're write that, um.

455
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: We see this in other large predators in the ocean too,

456
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: in terms of a live birth. This reminds me actually,

457
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: and I haven't told Robert this yet. One of our

458
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: colleagues here, Holly Fry, who hosts our history show, I

459
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: was talking to her about this the other day. She

460
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 1: used to be a volunteer at our local aquarium, and

461
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: she was saying that that's how she learned about the

462
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: internal fertilization process, is that she was working with one

463
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: of the sharks there and it spontaneously started giving birth.

464
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: And she was like completely surprised, and the marine biologists

465
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: there at the aquarium we're like, no, this is cool,

466
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: it's okay, Like this is a thing that happens with sharks. Yeah, yep, yep,

467
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: and and it is. It's it's amazing because it's not

468
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: what again, especially if you think of sharks as fish,

469
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: or a lot of aquarium that do have sharks, like

470
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: zeber sharks and things that do lay eggs. Often you'll

471
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: see a display that shows eggs at the different stages

472
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: and they'll be backlet I don't know if you guys

473
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: have ever seen that, but some of the aquari Virginia

474
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: fut Aquarium has this and and some others where you

475
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: can kind of see the developing shark in the egg case.

476
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: So a lot of people associate sharks again with fish

477
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: with egg laying. And the Trucia has many many of

478
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: the big ones, from great whites to lemon sharks to

479
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: read sharks. They all hammer heads, all live birth so

480
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: we've got to talk about and and help me out

481
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: here if I'm pronouncing this wrong. For so, it's san

482
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: tiger sharks in particular, uh adele faux feji, that's right, Okay,

483
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: So literally means eating your brother, Yeah, embryo cannibalism. And

484
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: so my first question is one of my favorite things

485
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: about your book is how you have the little fictional

486
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: vignettes set up within the book. And I want to

487
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: know why there wasn't a Delpho Fegi vignette and there

488
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: really that would have be like the best horror movie ever. Well,

489
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, and it was so because there was a

490
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: couple of these where I was, you know, I did

491
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: start to write several vignettes that did not make it

492
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: into the book because I just got to the point

493
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: where I was like, I don't think people actually want

494
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: to know level because it is it is gruesome, I

495
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: mean it really, So there were certain strategies that I said,

496
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: what we'll just leave it to the imagination and I

497
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: don't think I have to paint um much more of

498
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: a visual on this one. Well, instead of instead of

499
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: doing that, can you walk our audience through why this

500
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: occurs and how it benefits the mother and the offspring

501
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: absolutely so. And this is you know, it's still a theory,

502
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: but there's been some work, i say, over the last

503
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: two to three years, much of it led by Dr

504
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: Damien Chapman. And the thing that you have to understand

505
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: is shark sex. Again, it's internal, right, internal fertilization, and

506
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: it's pretty rough. In fact, most female sharks have thicker

507
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: skin so they can deal with the fact that the

508
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: males bite down on them to hold them in place

509
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 1: and roll them into place. So it's not a pleasant

510
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: experience for the female. Um. She probably and again we

511
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: can't really know, but in general, for what we see,

512
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: the limited amount of shark sex that we've actually been

513
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: able to view in the wild, she doesn't seem to

514
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: really um, she would like to limit those encounters, right,

515
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: um shark. The male clasper, the male sex organ also

516
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: often is barbed and hooked. We got notes about that

517
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: in here. Yeah. So again for the female, like having

518
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: multiple multiple matings is not awesome. It does bring a

519
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: true risk of um being wounded, being injured, and also

520
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: later infection from open cuts and things. So that's important

521
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: to know because it basically means the female is incentivized

522
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: to do whatever she can to limit how much mating

523
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: she has to do. So with that as a context,

524
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: what happens in the San Tiger shark is amazing. So

525
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: sharks have um to terize right in the left, you

526
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: can think of it that way. And for San tigers,

527
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: they give birth to only two pups at a time

528
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: each season, and it's one from each you to I.

529
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: And these pups are huge, they're about three ft long,

530
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: and I think the females, you know, you might have

531
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: a nine or tenth fi female. So this is you know,

532
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: giving birth to a baby that is a third the

533
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: length of your body. That's that's a big offspring. Just

534
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: the whole thing sounds awful for these poor lady sharks.

535
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: So that's a you know, that's a big deal. Um. However, again,

536
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: that means you have an offspring that is unlike, there's

537
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: not a lot of stuff in the ocean that's going

538
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: to eat a three ft long fish shark. That's a

539
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: pretty hardy, sturdy offspring that can probably send for itself

540
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: pretty well. Okay, So to get an offspring that big,

541
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of room and you need a

542
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: lot of nutrients. Okay, so you have females who likely

543
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: um will benefit from not having to have multiple encounters

544
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: with males. They want to limit that amount of sex,

545
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: but at the same time they want to make sure

546
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: that you know that they're having a male um who's

547
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: who's rather fit UM. So what happened was what seems

548
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: to happen is and this is what Dr Chapman discovered

549
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: kind of recently. He was able to look at um

550
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: pregnant females that have been caught in some sharp protection

551
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: that's off the beaches of South Africa, and so he

552
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 1: had access to the pregnant mothers and the developing embryos,

553
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: and he ran some some tests, paternity tests in particular,

554
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: to say how many how many males are these females

555
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: actually meeting with, And it turns out that they were

556
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 1: mating with several males. So within each uterus there were

557
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: multiple embryos that had each been fathered by different sharks,

558
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: by different males. However, there was always one one of

559
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: the embryos was over always substantially larger than the others.

560
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: And it seems that whoever this female mates with first,

561
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: that guy, that male is fertilizing two eggs, one in

562
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: each uterus, and those eggs are dropped it seems a

563
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: little earlier. And so these embryos, one in each, the

564
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: right and the left us right, they get um they

565
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: get a little bit of an advantage, and they're growing

566
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: a little bit ahead of the next suite of eggs

567
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: that seemed to come along. And what this means is,

568
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: and this is basically where it gets a little bit funky,

569
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: is that if that female mates with with a male,

570
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: she gets pregnant again, one each on each side. Then

571
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: if she is approached by other males, she can make

572
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: with them again without really having to struggle or try

573
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: to avoid that meeting. So she can kind of, um

574
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: perhaps allow that meeting to happen in a way that

575
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: maybe doesn't harm her as much. And those males then

576
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: are fertilizing the next batch of eggs. But the next

577
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: batch of eggs and the embryos that come of it

578
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: never make it because the bigger embryos, the first guys,

579
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: they actually hatch out of their little facts inside the

580
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: uterus and eat their siblings as they're developing, so it's

581
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: all of their help brothers or sisters. So what what

582
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: Dr Chapman found was that when he did these fraternity tests,

583
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: not only did he find that there were multiple males

584
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: for these different embryos, but more than half of the

585
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: time the two biggest embryos, one to each uterus, were

586
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: from the same father, so those were full siblings. So

587
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: it means that the male it gets to the female first,

588
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: we think, has a better than average kind of chance

589
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: of probably fertilizing that first batch of eggs, and those

590
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: embryos are getting a growth advantage. The other way it

591
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: may be working is that if it turns out that

592
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: the male that's meeting with the female or meeting other

593
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: males meeting soon after, whosever fitter. Maybe their embryos are

594
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: growing the fastest. But either way, the two largest embryos

595
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: on either side, so only one of the males, only

596
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: one male's offspring ever make it out into nature, and

597
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: so it's it's kind of it's a I know, it

598
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: gets a little bit heavy, but basically what you can

599
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: think is for the female, the strategy means that she

600
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: doesn't actually have to worry about who she meets with next,

601
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: because she's only going to give birth to that first

602
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: male's offspring, and the rest are basically just fertilizing food

603
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: for her developing embryos. So she's choosing with the first

604
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: one and then the everybody first. Yeah, and then she

605
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: doesn't have to waste energy, because it's very it can

606
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: be a lot of energy to either try to continually

607
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: swim away from advancing males or to struggle against advancing males. UM.

608
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: So what this does is it means that she can

609
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,479
Speaker 1: sort of be picky at first, but then after that

610
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: she doesn't really have to worry too much about the

611
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: fact that maybe these males aren't the most fit or

612
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: are going to you know, be approaching her. She can

613
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: kind of mate with them, maybe acquiesce a little, and

614
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: their offspring, their genes are not actually going to get

615
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: out there and kind of mess up her offspring. Um.

616
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: So it's this very and we don't Again, this is

617
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: very early stages. But what's very intriguing is if it

618
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: was just random, meaning if she was just mating with

619
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: whoever whenever, you would wouldn't see that the same male

620
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: would constantly be bothering both of the biggest embryos. There

621
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: would be a little bit more mixing up of of

622
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: who's who's offspring wound up, making it out into the world.

623
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: So the fact that it's the full siblings from that

624
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: likely that first mating that got the growth advantage that

625
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: then eat all the others, mean that there there could

626
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: be an advantage there that the female taking UM taking

627
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: on to say, Okay, I'll meet with the first guy,

628
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: be picky with him, and then after that, I don't

629
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: really have to worry about it because these guys are

630
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: just basically going to fertilize eggs that that get eaten

631
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: by my developing young So yeah, it's pretty gnarly. And

632
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: there's some pretty cool videos they've done UM with fiber

633
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: optics where you can go and if you google santiger,

634
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: shark cannibalism and you'll see like in the womb these guys,

635
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: I mean it is they look like demon aliens. They

636
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: have huge eyes, these um very well formed beef and

637
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: they they crack out of their little egg case and

638
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: they go and they'll puncture the egg cases of all

639
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: the other embryos. And they won't necessarily eat them right away, right,

640
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: they kill them first, right, and then they eat them

641
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: over the course of weeks. Yeah, so that they can't

642
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: so that they can't grow and compete, So they kill

643
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: them given all the violence we've discussed in the shark mating.

644
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes one think, wouldn't wouldn't it be

645
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: great if if the females could just reproduce without the

646
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: males being involved at all. Which, yeah, which leads to

647
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 1: the next question. Uh, I was really amazed to read

648
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: about this in your book. Either either I was not

649
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: aware of this or I'd forgotten it, But you talk

650
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: about how sharks are capable of parthenogenesis, sometimes referred to

651
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: as virgin birth. So what do we know about that

652
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 1: in sharks and why is it? Why is it difficult

653
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: to study in the wild. This is one of my

654
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: favorite active areas of research. So over the past I say,

655
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: maybe five eight years, we've all of a sudden um

656
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: and this is a lot to do with genetic tools

657
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: that are able to show us these this kind of

658
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: information based on Vienna samples. But we've found that at

659
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: first it was we saw it an aquaria where a

660
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: female that had been separated from a male for years

661
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: and years and years all of a sudden to give birth.

662
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: And we know that females can store sperm for a

663
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: really long time, like three years, four years, So at

664
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: first it was assumed that this was a sperm storage thing.

665
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: In in many cases it is, but we also started

666
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: to discover through again better genetics, that that's not always

667
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: the case. Sometimes they're doing virgin birth, and what version

668
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: birth is is it's where the female the egg undergoes

669
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 1: this really unique process where the egg itself kind of

670
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: splits and then refuses with its split part and conform

671
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: a viable offspring. So there's reshuffling of DNA, which is

672
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: what happens with regular sex normally between a egg and

673
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: a sperm, but this time it's between an egg and

674
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: kind of another part of the egg. And what it

675
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: means is that you have a genetically unique offspring. It's

676
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: not the same DNA code is a mother. It's not

677
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 1: a clone. It's not it is not a clone, right,

678
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: So this is really important because it's not it's it's

679
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: different than other kinds of a sexual non nonpaired reproduction,

680
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 1: which is cloning, where you get a genetically identical individual.

681
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: In this case, there is this reshuffling. You're just reshuffling

682
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: within the mother's DNA options. So it's genetically unique the offspring.

683
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: But there's two things that are really important to note

684
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 1: that that happened in this process. One is that even

685
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: though it's genetic reshuffling, it's still a less diverse amount

686
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: of UM sort of new new genetic blueprint then you

687
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: would get if you had mixed a sperm in and

688
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: egg like two individuals. Because you have you just have

689
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: a smaller you know, set of genes to to mix up,

690
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: because it's just the one mother's DNA that gets three

691
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: shuffled there than a mother and a father. So it

692
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: is less diversity in terms of over time. If these

693
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 1: offspring were produced, they're they're not as diverse genetically as

694
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: UM they would be if they were through regular um

695
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: full sexual reproduction. The second thing is you can only

696
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: have one sex because it's coming from the mother. The

697
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: sex chromosome that she has is in this case, like

698
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: with sharks, it's like the equivalent of you can think

699
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: of two xs, so that she only has those two.

700
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: It's the same the same two sex chromosomes. So no

701
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: matter how much you read shuffle, you're only going to

702
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: get excess. So you only get females in sharks. So

703
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: when this prod has happened, if you imagine it were

704
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: to happen forever, like if all female sharks said screw this,

705
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: we can do partenagenesis. We don't we don't want males anymore.

706
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: Over time that species genetics um diversity would decline and

707
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: your sex ratio would get so skewed that eventually it

708
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: would be a big trouble. So it's an awesome, fascinating

709
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: strategy that allowed a female to reproduce, and likely it's

710
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: used when um, she can't find a mate easily. It

711
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: does in sharks, the ones that we know can do this.

712
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: It's it's um called facultative parthena genesis, and that means

713
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: that it's by choice. She can also reproduce sexually, and

714
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: we know that they do do that most of the time,

715
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: so it seems to be a technique that she sort

716
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: of calls on perhaps when it's been really tough to

717
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: find a mate. And part of what supports this is

718
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: where we've seen it in the wild is in these

719
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: endangered small tooth sawfish where their populations have crashed over time,

720
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: and we see that this this level of parthenogenesis is

721
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: is very apparent when they've been doing these genetic sampling

722
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: and it's just the first time we've seen it in

723
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: the wild. Part of the reason why it's so tricky

724
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: is you have to be able to sample the pups

725
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: and they like to be able to. Scientists also like

726
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: to be able to sample the same mother to really

727
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: see like is this the mother's DNA that's getting getting reshuffled. Um.

728
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: I think the technique is getting better and better now

729
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: so that they could go out and test for this

730
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: just justin young sharks and see um uh if it's

731
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: if it's present. They're able now to kind of filter

732
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: to see is their male DNA there. There are certain

733
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: screens they can use, but um, it's it's been very

734
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: difficult to do that in the past. Um. So this

735
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: is again a new tool that they're they're just starting

736
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: to develop. And um where where they have tested it

737
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: and seen it a positive result has been in this

738
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: very highly endangered species or again in aquaria where the

739
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: females have no access to males um for a long time.

740
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's really cool. It's basically the female

741
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: being like, well can find a male, might as well

742
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: go for it myself. And it seems to be in

743
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: very diverse. It's only a handful of species that we know,

744
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: but they're very diverse species. So it doesn't seem to

745
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: be just in one group of sharks. Um so that

746
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: kind of makes us really curious regarding, um, yeah, how

747
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: prevalent it could be and how often it's called upon.

748
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna take another quick break and when

749
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: we come back, more shark talk. So, uh we we

750
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: are putting this to the podcast episode out around the

751
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: same time as Shark Week, So we we thought we'd

752
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: ask you a few questions about Shark Week. Uh So,

753
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: first of all, did did you grow up with Shark

754
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: Week like like we did, where it's just kind of

755
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: this because my at least memories are just it's it's

756
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: all during the summer and it's just all these shark programs,

757
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: and so what do you do? You just watch a

758
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: bunch of shark programs? Absolutely, I mean I was, Yes,

759
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: I was hooked. And actually I have to I have

760
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: my my one, my fifteen seconds of fame that we

761
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: all get, right, was in the late nineties, I was

762
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: on Shark Week. I had a little clip where I

763
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 1: got to I was I was taking a little baby

764
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: lemon shark out of a net down at the Shark

765
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: Lab in Diamoni, Bahamas with the legendary Doc Gruber. So

766
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: it was near and dear to my heart because it

767
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: was the show that, actually, you know, this whole week

768
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: dedicated to trying to show the science and amazing natural

769
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: history of these incredible animals. So I was, Yeah, I

770
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: was a huge fan um again back in in the nineties,

771
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: and it's interesting to see what's happened since. Yeah, I mean,

772
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: it's our understanding that this year, apparently a shark is

773
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: going to race Michael Phelps on shark Ate this year.

774
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to pull that off.

775
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 1: I've been hearing these rumors too, and I am it's

776
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to me because selps is fast for

777
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: a human, right, But I don't know. I mean, have

778
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,280
Speaker 1: you ever swum with a even like a butterfly fish?

779
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: They're really fast. Yeah. I was recently at the at

780
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: the beach with my son and we kept he kept

781
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: telling me, oh, can you You've got to catch one

782
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: of these fish that's in the surf, and we had

783
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 1: this little hokey net, you know, and they're just those

784
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: little fish are so fast, so swift, there's just no

785
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: catching them. So I can imagine that Phelps is just

786
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: completely boned. If he's going to raise a great white shark, yeah,

787
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: I would. My money wouldn't be on Phelps for for

788
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: several reasons. But I am curious about like how how

789
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: they're going because also like sharks, like they don't swim

790
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: in straight lines. Where where is this? How? How? And why? Again?

791
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: What is it? Just to show how a simulation would

792
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: be cool? I mean, I'd love to see a really

793
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: neat animation of like, here's the fastest person, Michael Phelps.

794
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: He could go this fast. A great white would do

795
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: that in you know, at tenth the time. But yeah,

796
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: it'll be interesting because I can't find exactly what it's

797
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: all about. It's just that they've just been like feeding

798
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: this rumor of Phelps versus great white and uh, I

799
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:35,240
Speaker 1: kind of can't think of any anything except actually walking

800
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: on land where Phelps maybe a great white? Oh that

801
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: would that would be such a cruel twist, wouldn't it.

802
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: If it turns out the races on land, it actually

803
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: turns out that the way Michael Phelps reproduces is by

804
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: having babies eat is the eggs inside of him? That

805
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: would be that would be very interesting, Or maybe it's

806
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: an imposable song unscrewing a jar lid, he'd probably win.

807
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's gonna be interesting to see. And again,

808
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: if they're doing it as a way to kind of

809
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: bring home an analogy of like how fast sharks are,

810
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: then that's great, um, because people have seen self and

811
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: he's the fastest. I mean, he really is one of

812
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: the he's incredible for our species. What he can do

813
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: in the water is amazing. And comparing that and showing

814
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: how that is not even close to what a shark

815
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: to do that that could be a really great way

816
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: to help people appreciate just how how fast these animals

817
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: are and how perfectly designed they are for their environment.

818
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, evolution has had hundreds of millions of years

819
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: to fine tune the body shape of sharks, and if

820
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: you look at their shape, it has not changed that

821
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: much in that that time. There's many different you know,

822
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: body shapes for sharks, but that general form for the

823
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: ones that are free swimmers you know, in the water column,

824
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: not the ground sharks. They all have very similar things.

825
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: And the Navy uses it to make their missiles go faster,

826
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: and you know, we we can certainly see, um, how

827
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: evolution has maximized that incredible predatory speed oriented sleekness. We don't.

828
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: We don't have it even when you're wearing those really

829
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: tight bating suits. As far as Shark Week goes, and

830
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: I guess, not just Shark Week, but just sort of

831
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: our cultures associations with sharks, our relationship with sharks, it

832
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,959
Speaker 1: seems seems like it's it's it's ultimately like a little

833
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: bit challenging from a science communication standpoint because on one level,

834
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: like everybody is still like a six year old kid

835
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: inside with sharks to a certain extent, there's something about

836
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 1: the ferocious shark that is appealing, is is endlessly fascinating

837
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: that it's it's a little bit scary, uh, And generally,

838
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: you know, fun scary if you're not in the water,

839
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: I guess. But then you do want to communicate these

840
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: these more important issues, like, you know, what's going on

841
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: besides biting a cage with the the human in it,

842
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: beyond you know feeding, uh, you know, chum to to

843
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: a shark and just watching its its teeth snap. And

844
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: you want to relate these important issues of conservation uh

845
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: to the general public. But but how do you I mean,

846
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: how do you end up weighing those two things, how

847
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: do you how do you how do you proportion the

848
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 1: informational meal. I imagine it's one way to put it.

849
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 1: It's a great question, and I think as a community,

850
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: whether it's the science communication community or the shark science community,

851
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: we're still trying to figure it out. The key is

852
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: that it's what you said at the beginning, right where

853
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 1: all those excited six year olds inside, where there is

854
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 1: a fascination, even if that fascination is strongly rooted in fear,

855
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: it's a great way to get people engaged. I mean,

856
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: there is a shark Week because people want to learn

857
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: about these animals. And I think where I get so

858
00:50:55,160 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: frustrated with discovery and especially was appalled. I would say

859
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: the last you know, five years or so, they really

860
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: I think took a turn for the worst, though I

861
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: do think they are trying to correct. Last year I

862
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: think was a little bit better. But there's no need

863
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: to play off the fear. The fear is there, the

864
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: fascination is there. People will show up and they want

865
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: to watch. So take it to the next step and

866
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: use that as the doorway that opens up to this

867
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: world of unbelievable natural history. Whether you're talking about their reproduction,

868
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: whether you're talking about their sensory systems, whether you're talking

869
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: about their ancient lineage and evolution in a water environment,

870
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: and all the things that they do that's different than fish.

871
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: There's so much whether you're talking about their role as

872
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: apex predators in controlling an ecosystem. There there is so

873
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: much that is rooted in science and that we are

874
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: learning all the time. We don't need to make up

875
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: and exaggerate it. There's no there's just absolutely no no

876
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: need for fabrication. And that's why I was I think

877
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: what has been so bewildering about the fact that they

878
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: sort of sharkly took this sort of strange route towards

879
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: exaggeration and too really hyperbole to the point of misrepresentation.

880
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: It's not necessary because you're not you don't have to

881
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: attract people to watch this stuff. You really don't. People

882
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: aren't genuinely curious. And what we are learning is unbelievable.

883
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that you have some rays that

884
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: produce a milk like substance that they're developing embryos are

885
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: nursing off of in the womb. That's fascinating. That's amazing.

886
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: Nobody knows that. We're still trying to figure out how

887
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: they do it. What does that mean? Do you call

888
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: it milk? It's not in a mammal. You could have

889
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 1: so many cool conversations about this stuff. I mean, one

890
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: of the articles I I sort of um wrote after

891
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: the books I couldn't dig into it enough is this

892
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: amazing work by a guy named Dr Jim Gelschlider. And

893
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: he he's trying to figure out like paternity tests work

894
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: in sharks, but pregnancy tests don't. We cannot figure out

895
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: how to make a pregnancy test for a shark. And

896
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,839
Speaker 1: it's because their their hormones and their biological systems chemicals

897
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 1: are so different. They regulate their physiology so differently. We've

898
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: done it for fish, we've done it for mammals. We

899
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: cannot figure out how to do it for sharks. And

900
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 1: it seems like paternity tests work, pregnancy tests don't. That's

901
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: fascinating and it opens up a whole way of discussing

902
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: not only why that is, but why that matters. If

903
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: we can't figure out when these sharks are pregnant, how

904
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 1: long they're pregnant for, how often they're getting pregnant it's

905
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: really hard to know what is appropriate management. How much

906
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: can we fish? You can't answer that question. You can't

907
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: know how many sharks to take out of the water

908
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: if you don't know how many sharks there reproducing to

909
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: fill that gap each year. So these are fundamental questions

910
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: that deal with fascinating aspects of their natural history and biology.

911
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: So there's so much to dig into that I think

912
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: we can. We can use the fear, we can use

913
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: that fascination to say, yeah, these are crazy, crazy predators

914
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: and they are really really good at being predators. But one,

915
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: you're weird in the ocean, you know, like you're not

916
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: a burger. You know, imagine if if you eat you know,

917
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 1: burgers and salads and then somebody plunked down this thing

918
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: in front of you that you've never seen before. It

919
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: smells different, it's the textures different, it's got we're dressing

920
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 1: on it, like you're probably not going to just dive

921
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: in augusto. Most sharks think I think we're weird. I

922
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 1: have to say that lately when I have gone into

923
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: the ocean, and especially most recently, because I managed to

924
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: glimpse a shark of some kind, I wasn't able to

925
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: make out the species. But I think back to an

926
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: episode of The Simpsons, I believe, where there's a brief

927
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: clip of a shark jumping out of the water and

928
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: grabbing a gorilla out of a tree and then and

929
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: and it's just such an you know, an unbelievable and

930
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: ridiculous scene, and I think, well, that's basically what's happening here.

931
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: I am that gorilla, and that shark has not evolved

932
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: to to to eat me. It hasn't. And I mean

933
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 1: when you think of the numbers of times people are

934
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: in the water with sharks and nothing happens, I mean

935
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: more than half the time, we have no idea they're there.

936
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the truth. And they're not interested, it really,

937
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: really aren't. When an accident occurs, it is tragic, of

938
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: course it is, and of course it's scary because we think,

939
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this could happen. But you know, the

940
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 1: statistics on it speak for themselves and most people's experiences,

941
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: even those of us who want to go and see

942
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: a shark, it's really hard to find them, and it's

943
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: getting harder to find them. I mean, sharks are in

944
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: big trouble. We we are over fishing them across the board.

945
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,720
Speaker 1: There are a few species. So there are some small

946
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: species often like off the east coast they're known as

947
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: dog fish, that are smaller, they reproduce a little more

948
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 1: quickly likely can sustain a fishery. But the big sharks,

949
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 1: the hammer has, the reef sharks, the great whites, those

950
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: they can't take the level of fishing pressure, whether it's

951
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: targeted or accidental, that that we've been putting out there,

952
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 1: and they are they are getting creamed and their numbers

953
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: are plummeting um and it's it's really scary, and it's

954
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: really sad because it's it's it's not necessary. So that fear,

955
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: I think what I would to see is a way

956
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: to show that that fear should bring that healthy respect,

957
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: which is the same that we carry when you go

958
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: hiking in the woods and you think about being smart

959
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: about bears, right, do the things you can do to

960
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: minimize a chance that you're going to um invoke any

961
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: kind of an attack, but otherwise be decided if you're

962
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: lucky enough to actually see one, it's a pretty special thing.

963
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: So on the subject of of shark conservation, where are

964
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: we with short conservation, like what are what are where

965
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: where our victories and what are the where are failures?

966
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: And what are the challenges ahead? Yeah, so i'd say that,

967
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: you know, I think the last few years have have

968
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: been a bit of a turning point, but it's it's

969
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: a very early stage turning points. We've really got to

970
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: keep the momentum um. The biggest driver of sharks declines

971
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: has actually been the rise in Asia of especially China,

972
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: of sharks in soup as a delicacy. This is a

973
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: dish that is served at weddings at you know, very

974
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: fancy banquets, and it's a considered a sign of stature. Um.

975
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,959
Speaker 1: So it's a way of showing off really, And there's

976
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: no nutritional value in the sharks fin at all. It's

977
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: just it's like eating your ear, right, It's just a

978
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: bunch of cartilage, doesn't doesn't have any nutritional value and

979
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: the method of harvest is extremely um destructive and gruesome.

980
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 1: So what the what sharks finning involves is literally spinning.

981
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: So they will catch a shark, cut off its fins

982
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: and then throw the body back over. That way they

983
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about taking up storage room on

984
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: ice with the bodies. So there that sharks obviously die.

985
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: They can't, you know, they either bleed to death or

986
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: they drown because they can't swim without their fins. And

987
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: for many sharks that they can't swim, they can't get

988
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: enough oxygen and they and then I guess suffocate UM.

989
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: So it's really gruesome. It's really wasteful because if you're

990
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 1: gonna kill a shark, you might as well eat the meat,

991
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: right use the animal. And it doesn't feed people. It's

992
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: not like this is going to feeding populations that need protein.

993
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: So it's just wasteful across the board in a highly

994
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: unsustainable practice. However, it is very lucrative. These shark fins

995
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: step for very very high prices, so one of the

996
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: challenges we have is curbing that demand. There's some campaigns

997
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 1: out there that are really trying to educate UM the

998
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: consumer to say, don't have this at your weddings, don't

999
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: have this at your banquets. This is not not something

1000
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: to encourage. There have been very strong and some very

1001
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: successful campaigns to UM create policies that ban the sale

1002
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: and trade of shark fins. So this is happening in

1003
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: the States. There's several cities that have banned the import

1004
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: or trade of shark fins. There's also some really great

1005
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: advances in UM again in uh DNA testing. So one

1006
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: of the hardest things is that once a fin is

1007
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: cut off a shark, it can be really hard to

1008
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: identify what shark that came from. Some of the most

1009
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 1: threatened species have gotten protection under SIGHTS, which is the

1010
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: Conservations for the International Trade of Endangered Species so c

1011
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: i t e S. And if if it is found

1012
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: that somebody has a shark fin from one of those species,

1013
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: then they can be in really big trouble and they're

1014
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: huge fines. So internationally there are tools that allow for prosecution,

1015
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: but it's been hard to prove which species of sharks

1016
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: fin has come from. Now we have some better genetic

1017
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: tools that are allowing for this, and Dr Debra Abercrombie

1018
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 1: is one of the leaves on this. She was working

1019
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: for a while at a Stony Brook University UM and

1020
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: and she and a group of scientists there have have

1021
01:00:55,080 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: helped create some kits that allow UM Enforcement office or

1022
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: to test so if they go and they see shark

1023
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: fins in a restaurant or in a warehouse, they can

1024
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: now go even if that fin has has really degraded.

1025
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 1: They can now go and test that product to see

1026
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 1: if it is from one of these banded species, and

1027
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: they've had great success in being able to now prosecute

1028
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: some of these illegal traders, so that's really positive. Um.

1029
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: The other victories that we're seeing are shark fishing bands,

1030
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: shark sanctuaries are now um really gaining traction. The first

1031
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: was set by Palau, the first national shark sanctuary. They

1032
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: banned all shark fishing in all their waters in two

1033
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: thousand and nine. Other countries have since followed Micronesia, New Caledonia, French, Polynesia,

1034
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: um at all in the Pacific. Then in the Caribbean

1035
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: there's the Bahamas, the Cayman Islands, Honduras, um the Bridge

1036
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: Virgin Islands, I believe. So there's probably dozen, maybe maybe

1037
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: a little more, maybe fifteen countries or networks of countries

1038
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: around the world that have started to ban shark fishing

1039
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: outright and they're finding that and there's been one or

1040
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: two studies, I know there was one in Palau that

1041
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,440
Speaker 1: looked at the economics of this and the value of

1042
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 1: a shark when it's fished and killed and sold for

1043
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: meat is far far less than the value of that

1044
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: same shark on shark dive year after year after year.

1045
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: So people who now know that these places have healthy

1046
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 1: shark populations and want to go and see sharks, they

1047
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: pay a lot for that. And so these countries are

1048
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: actually realizing that if you if you want it in

1049
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 1: economic terms, there is good evidence that it makes good

1050
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: sense on a dollar value to keep your sharks alive.

1051
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: It makes your ecosystem healthier. And they're now booming eco

1052
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: tourism opportunities that can come with that, and oftentimes there's

1053
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: um they to retrain fishers uh to be able to

1054
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: take advantage of this kind of different livelihood. And again

1055
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: most of the time these fishers are not fishing to

1056
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: see themselves. That's not why they're fishing the sharks. It's uh.

1057
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 1: It really can be a great way of seeing how

1058
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: ego tourism can be driving better conservation and the economics

1059
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: are are really on the side of protection when it

1060
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: when it comes to those those big sanctuaries. And this

1061
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: is the last thought related to that. Part of why

1062
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 1: these large sharks fitting and also sharks fishing bands can

1063
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 1: work is because we now have technology like satellites and

1064
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: drones that help these small island nations monitor and regulate

1065
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: these huge expanses of water that they never were able

1066
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: to do before. You know, they there's no way Palau

1067
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 1: can patrol for illegal fishing in its waters using boats.

1068
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 1: They just can't to if they can't enforce that there's

1069
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: I can't remember the number, but you know, land size,

1070
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 1: the water is, the ratio is not in their favor.

1071
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: But through things like Eyes on the Sea and Sky Truth,

1072
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: these are programs where NGOs have partnered with governments and

1073
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 1: foundations and UM the expertise of technology companies like Google

1074
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: to use satellites and start mapping fishing activity UM and

1075
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: drones to map fishing activities so that they can actually

1076
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 1: have early detection and deploy and enforcement boat very strategically

1077
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: when they know there's somebody in that area. And that

1078
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: has really changed the game across the board for illegal

1079
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 1: fishing UM. And it's really really exciting because these tools

1080
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: are are are critical to our ability to turn what

1081
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: used to just be on paper protections into actual protections.

1082
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: So I think there's a lot of victories UM, but

1083
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: still some very significant challenges. Yeah, from what you've told

1084
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: us today, it sounds like sharks have a lot more

1085
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: reason to have horror films about us than we of

1086
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: horror films about them eating us. And that absolutely that

1087
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 1: would be I would that's the horror movie I would

1088
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: want to write. Um, Yeah, well, I'm I'm I'm actually hoping,

1089
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: you know that the sensationalism of the sort of symbology

1090
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: of sharks as killing machines starts going away soon. You know,

1091
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: this Phelps thing that we were talking about earlier. At

1092
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: least he's racing the shark. It's focused on the speed

1093
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: and not on something else, you know, So I'm hoping

1094
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: for that. I agree, and I think you know. The

1095
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: one thing I can say is, especially with Shark Wheat,

1096
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 1: for while your listeners out there right in and let

1097
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 1: them know that you like the programs that aren't just

1098
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 1: about the killing and the ferocious predator stuff. You like

1099
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: the interesting stuff on the science and the natural history,

1100
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: and you want to know more about how sharks do

1101
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: what they do, not just how they act as predators,

1102
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: because they're incredibly complex. And again, whether it's their sex

1103
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: lives or the way that they sense their environment, I mean,

1104
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: their their history over time, their cultural the myths and

1105
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: culture around sharks. I mean, all of that is fascinating,

1106
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: and I think the more we as as consumers of

1107
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: this information can show that we we really like all

1108
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: of it, and we really like it to be grounded

1109
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: in real science and we don't need the sensationalism, the better.

1110
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: And then, of course, as scientists, I know we're watching

1111
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 1: and we need to continue to be really vigilant and

1112
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: and hold hold these kind of programs and especially Shark

1113
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: Week to a very very high box and make sure that,

1114
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: um we're calling out what may be misrepresentation or hyper

1115
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: beliefs so that we can continue to steer it back

1116
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 1: to a direction that it truly is informative and accurate. Um.

1117
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, that would be my little soapbox speech. Let

1118
01:06:55,720 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: them know you like the science. Well, Mar thanks again

1119
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: for joining us here on the show. You I think

1120
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: you and Mary Roach the only people we've had on

1121
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: the show three times, so you're in a wow that

1122
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 1: is like, that's hugely I'm super humbled by that. Thank you,

1123
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: And I love talking with you guys, and I just

1124
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 1: appreciate so much I've been obviously I'm a fan and

1125
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: listen to your podcast and just love how diverse and

1126
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 1: how deep you guys go on topics. It's it's a

1127
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: really it's an awesome combination. So thank you for letting

1128
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 1: me be a part of it. All right, So there

1129
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: you have it, another fun, fascinating talk with mar j Hart.

1130
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 1: Every time we have her on the show, she provides

1131
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: this wonderful conversation, just a just an outpouring of marine

1132
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 1: biology content. And if you want to look up those

1133
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: past episodes of the podcast where we talked to her,

1134
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 1: I'll be sure to link to those in the landing

1135
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: page for this episode it's Stuff to Blow your Mind

1136
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: dot Com. There'll also be a link out to places

1137
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: where you can buy her book, Sex in the Sea.

1138
01:07:57,240 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: One of the best things about having Mara on as

1139
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: a guest too, is that Mara engages with us on

1140
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: social media, So if you want to check out whatever

1141
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: inevitable conversation we end up having with her, just see

1142
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: what she has to say after the episode airs. Definitely

1143
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: look out for that. You can find us on social

1144
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: media on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Tumbler. And don't forget

1145
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: to check out Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1146
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: That's where Robert's going to post that stuff on the

1147
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: landing page. That's where all of our blog posts exist,

1148
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 1: all of our videos, and every single podcast, And if

1149
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us directly, you

1150
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: want to share your shark stories, you want to share

1151
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 1: your experience with Shark Week. If you watch Shark Week

1152
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: this year, uh, give us some feedback. What do you

1153
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: think about it? How do you how do you think

1154
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 1: it lined up with some of the issues that we

1155
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 1: were discussing in this episode. Let us know. You can

1156
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: email us and blow the mind at how stuff works

1157
01:08:49,640 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

1158
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com