WEBVTT - Polyamory: When two just won't do 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:13.400 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:18.520 There's Charles W Chuck Bryant, Jerry's over there, and there's 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.160 this stuff you should know. That's right. How all of 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.520 our wives and girlfriends are in the next room. Right, 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.200 How are you doing? Man? I'm good. I found this 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:30.240 topic to be super interesting. And um, I should say 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:34.240 up front that our our joky nous that we always 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.400 include in every podcast almost um is not meant to 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.960 be disrespectful to anyone who is in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah, 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:45.800 and we're not here to like just kind of look 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.199 at your relationship from the outside and poke at it 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.680 and make fun of it or light of it. If 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.960 you're enjoying yourself and everybody's on board and no one's 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.800 being hurt, then we always say to each his own, 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:03.840 that's right. But from the outside, uh, polyamory might seem 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.479 like a very strange arrangement. Well, I think to most 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.679 people it seems like swinging, that's right. But it's not. No, 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.200 it is not a lot of things. It's not cheating, right, 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.440 it's not swinging, right, it's not um, it's not polygamy. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.560 It's not what was the other one. Well, it's not 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:28.319 a lot of things. Um, it's not dentistry, right, Well, 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.319 the point is that we should it's not promiscuous nous. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:37.400 So what it is actually from? And I had no idea. 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.039 I think my conception of polyamory was that it was 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.360 basically kind of swinging and it was based on it 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.000 was I got the the root couple thing, but um 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.400 that it was mostly like a swinging kind of thing. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.680 But from research, like I realized I was pretty far off. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:01.680 Polyamory is in a very odd way of for of monogamy, 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.200 but that it includes more than two people in this 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:10.760 monogamous relationship. Well not necessarily monogamous either though, so because 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.000 there can be arrangements where you're allowed to go out 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.320 and do what you want, kick ends with people. So 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:20.639 I ran across something that that's technically considered monogamish, as 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.760 Dan Savage coined it. That sounds like a very new word, yeah, 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:28.200 I mean Dan Savage coined it. Yeah, But which means 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.480 that I'm probably not gonna put too much greens. But 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:32.520 in the from what I understand and this I got 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:38.519 this from a polyamory site called um more than two 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.840 more than two Franklin vow is how I'm pronouncing his 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.160 last name, vow. Yeah. And I'm not kidding when I 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.000 say it's a great side if you are interested in 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.640 exploring polyamory. It's super thorough and very very helpful. I 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:54.960 would think, yeah, just by going through it. And the 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.160 impression that I got from him from his f a 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.720 Q at least is that it is a It's like 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.320 the people in a polyamorous relationship are committed to one another, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.440 and that like they're rather in the same way that 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.959 two people a couple come together to form a monogamous relationship. 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.959 If you if you take that bubble and add another 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.040 person or two other people or something like that, but 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:25.000 there's still that bubble of monogamy, of commitment, of affection um, 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:30.519 that that is more close to the the the definition 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.240 of polyamory. Now in real life, I'm sure it's different, um, 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.880 and that there are different aspects to it or whatever. 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:40.720 But supposedly that's what I gathered. But I think, uh, 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.920 polyamorous couples say, why would you even use a word 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:50.680 like monogamy when it means means more than one committed? 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:52.600 Is the word I should. Yeah, I think that's that's 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:59.080 the trip. And so Dan Savage come on monogamous. Yeah, yeah, Um, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.360 I knew more about this um just because there was 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.880 a show I don't know if it was HBO, it's 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:13.760 probably Cinemax that UM followed some polyamorous relationships, and so 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.359 I knew that it was not just hey it's swinging, 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.599 or hey I just want an open relationship. It's you know, 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:24.159 I'm gonna tryad I've got a man and there's a 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.680 woman and there's another woman, or in another case, it 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.520 was two couples all lived together, they were all in 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.760 a committed relationship with one another. UM. I mean we'll 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.000 talk about there is no standard for a polyamorous relationship. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.320 It can really be anything you want that works for you. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:47.080 Sometimes it's bisexual, sometimes it's not. Sometimes um the two 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.920 it's really I mean, we could go over a million scenarios. Really, 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.120 I was starting to break him all down, but it's 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.200 like you really is whatever you can work out between 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:03.520 yourselves is polyann But the point is is ummm, to 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.520 maybe put it on less fine of a point, but 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.240 to get a little closer potentially to a correct definition. 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.800 Polyamory is not monogamy because there's more than two people, right, 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.560 and it's not cheating because all of the people involved 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:21.640 are on the on the same page about what they're doing, 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.400 what what they're doing, what their partners are doing, what 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.120 everybody's doing. Everyone's aware and consenting, that's right. So it's 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.839 between those two things. So this is the opposite of 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.480 the E s P podcast, where apparently we never even 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.240 said what ESP stood for. Yeah, a couple of people like, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.680 we're like, hey, I didn't catch a ESP stands for? 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.040 Can you tell us? And I'm like, well, go listen again, 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:47.159 and enough people said it that I was like, oh, 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.960 extrasensory perception, by the way, And then we have just 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.080 now defined polyamory for the last ten minutes, so I 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.280 think we're covered. I think we finally landed on it. Though. Uh, yeah, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:04.520 it's a very fascinating thing, and um, here's how it works. Well, Uh, 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:09.760 I think that the let's talk about why people are polyamorous, right, 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.840 So people who are polyamorous probably tend to think that 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:17.680 monogamy is not for them. And if you're speaking from 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:23.599 a um like a evolutionary perspective, monogamy is kind of 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.160 a puzzlement should we talk about that. Yeah, so monogamy 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.920 looking through the lens of natural selection, doesn't make sense 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:37.800 evolutionarily because it lowers a male's ability to um, It 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.600 lowers his number of opportunities to carry on his genetic 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.600 line and there for the species, right exactly. Yeah, and 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.920 it was long thought by some that UM it was 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.880 monogamy came about so males could assist in the raising 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.600 of the young UM. But there are some new theories 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.920 now that UM make that seem a little less likely 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.360 are actually a lot less likely. UM. And ironically, well 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:09.000 not ironically but coincidentally they were both published. They were 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:13.440 both published around the same time, these two new theories, 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.240 they came out and at the and enough time to 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.880 really kind of compete with one another. Yeah, because you know, 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.600 when you look around the the animal kingdom, among non 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:28.640 avian there are more birds that are supposedly cockroaches that 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.960 are monogamous. But if you if you rule out the 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.720 birds and the cockroaches, well specifically mammals too. Yeah, about 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.520 five percent of the four thousand mammal species give or 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:43.280 take UM, only about five percent are monogamous or mate 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:48.320 for life. And so again, if you are strictly looking 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.360 at it from the selfish gene theory, like the whole 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.680 point would be to run around and copulate with as 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.880 many females as you possibly can so that you can 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.920 have more and more chances of spreading your genetic line 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.600 and then, like you said, hence carry on the species. 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.520 So did not do that to just couple with one 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.960 other person and and have maybe a few kids rather 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:14.040 than thirty with a bunch of different males and females. 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.360 Right again, it doesn't really kind of make sense. So 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.960 they've tried to explain this, and there are some theories, 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:24.240 like you were saying, one of them is that, um, 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.680 if you are a rival male, one of the things 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:33.680 you have to do to get with another female. I 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.440 think that's what biologists call it getting with um you 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.839 have to kill her offspring, because while she's nursing, she 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.800 can't ovulate, and therefore you can't reproduce with her. But 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.600 kill her kids. She's gonna stop nursing, she'll be sad, 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:52.160 But then you guys can have your own offspring. If 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.880 you are a male that's staying behind after you reproduce 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.960 with a female, then you have the chance to defend 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.160 your offspring from being killed by arrival males. Explanation from 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.400 monogamy yep, and that was in the proceedings of the 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.280 National Academy of Sciences and um. They found that out 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.640 by studying behaviors of two d and thirty primate species. Uh. 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.560 And they felt so good about it that the guy 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.520 who ran the study said, this is it. We now 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.240 finally know for sure. But that's not necessarily true because 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.000 there's another really great theory where they actually published in 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.040 the journal Science and Studied Mammals, which is way more 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.760 than the other study. H. D. H. Lucas and Tim 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:44.320 Klutenbrock of Cambridge University, and they said, Uh, it's really 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:51.520 about low density and females. It's that simple. Like when 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.800 there aren't many females, that's where monogamy happens, right when 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.920 they're spread out, because they beat up on each other 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.480 when they're in the same place female. Um, so they 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.120 have to spread out geographically. Well, if you're a guy 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.200 who's just running from female the female, the female, you 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.000 don't know what she's doing while you're not around, so 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.480 you don't know whether those kids are yours or not. 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.880 So the best way to make sure that they're your kids, 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:20.120 is to hang around and be monogamous. So it's it's 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:25.920 really similar to the other theory, the you're staying around 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.520 to defend the kids, and this one it's a little 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.960 less magnanimous. You're staying around to make sure that the 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.760 female doesn't run around on you. Right. But then I 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.640 saw a third theory that also makes sense to um, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:43.360 and that is that the idea of males staying around 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:48.320 to help raise kids was a strategy developed by lesser 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.720 males in the primate kingdom. So like the alpha male, 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.240 the top guys, they're having no trouble, they can go 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.520 wherever they want. They're getting plenty of action. Right, Hey, 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.880 I can care for the kids exactly. And that that's 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.840 a strategy that caught the attention of females who otherwise 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.760 wouldn't have made it with these guys because they're less 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:13.080 nestment and uh instead said, yeah, he's a dork, I 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.520 can't stand his bowtie in a short sleeve shirt, but 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.600 he does do a pretty good job with the kids, 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.280 So I'm going to be monogamous with this guy. So 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.719 three pretty good theories to explain monogamy. None of them 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.400 hold water for polyamorous. No, and and everyone under the 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.680 age of thirty five is now looking up. Who less 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.240 nestment is it was? That was a great reference, man. Thanks, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.440 it just popped up. Um alright. So the benefits, I believe, 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.640 is what we were talking about before we delved into 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.560 the theory. And I've always said monogamy too, is not 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.040 a natural thing, and that the reward of saying with 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.200 one person is partly because of that. You know, you 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.679 it's not a natural thing. You sacrifice something in some 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.560 way by being with someone, but the payoff is rich. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.040 That is eyes words, Chuck. So we'll see if I 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.720 end up married in twenty years, I'll confirm all this. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.480 Just kidding, of course, I will be UM. All right, 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.880 So let's talk about the benefits. It is not just 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:17.200 about UM having sex with more than one person. Now, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.680 that's definitely part of it. It is part of it, Um, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:25.120 But it is also about UM support in a greater 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.120 you know, it takes a village, they say, So if 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.199 you have a larger village, then you're gonna have more 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:34.480 support and care and love and emotional support. UM. All 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:40.480 that stuff right, exactly. And it's not polyamorous relationship or 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:46.400 group doesn't necessarily have sex with one another everybody. Um. 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.800 Sex is a big component of it, but you also 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:54.720 have what are called polly effective relationships where like, let's 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.560 say you have what you call it a tryad. Is 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.120 that a polly um is three people? Yeah, but that's 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.200 what polyamorous call it. UM. So let's say you have 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.520 a triad where neither of the of two women and 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.080 a guy, and neither of the women are bisexual, but 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.520 they're still in a polyamorous relationship. They would be poly effective, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.720 like they have an emotional connection to one another like 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.120 a couple would, but they're not sexually involved with one another. 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:26.000 They're poly effective. That's another component of a polyamorous relationship. 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.319 So the whole thing is not just satisfying your every 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.320 sexual need with a bunch of different people. UM. It's 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.400 also that I think they believe that you have a 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.400 lot of different needs that one person can't necessarily satisfy 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:45.320 beyond sex as well. It could be cultural interests, it 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.600 can be past times, it can be what have you. 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.440 And so the idea behind polyamory is you find those 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.800 people in your life who combined make that single ideal 0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:00.280 person rather than placing all that on one single person 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.720 for better for worse. Yeah, I looked at an example 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:07.120 on the what was it two for one, no two 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:12.880 or more more than more than two more more more 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.920 than two dot com? I looked at one. They had 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.240 a lot of just stories and examples of people, like 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.920 real stories. And this one lady UM was married to 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.120 a guy who quite simply was not into a lot 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.480 of the things she was into. Um, she was big 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.360 into the theater, I think in museums. Her husband didn't 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.080 like that. Uh. They developed into a polyamorous relationship, and 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.480 she had another man that was really into that stuff, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.720 an old high school boyfriend I think, and he uh 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.440 took up with another woman who had similar interests as him, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.080 and they all worked it out. And you know, people say, well, 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.520 why don't you just leave the husband then, who you 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:50.880 don't have these things in common with, and go with 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.880 the old high school boyfriend. That's a neat story. She 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.160 was like, well, because he's really needy and my husband 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.840 isn't and we have a lot of great stuff. Uh 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.360 So it is literally, like you said, satisfying all my 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.480 needs through multiple people, because who can expect one person 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.480 to be that soul mate that gives you everything you need, 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.360 and these suckers who are in monogamous marriages are just uh, 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.080 sacrificing certain parts of their life, like going to museums 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.880 or whatever. If it was this lady. So everybody, we're 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.280 about to satisfy all of your needs with this commercial break. 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:50.760 He now all right and we're back. So chuck um. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:56.440 We were talking about why people do polyamory, Right, do polyamory. 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:02.280 Let's talk about how polyamory actually works. Yeah, I mean, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.800 anyone in a marriage that's you know, things get more 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.560 complicated as you get older. So I don't mean to 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.200 talk down to people in the twenties, but relationships get 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:13.720 a little more complicated as you get older and you 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.400 get more responsibilities. So if you're married and you're in 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.160 your thirties or forties or fifties, you know it is 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.040 or any kind of committed relationship, you know, it's logistically 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.760 tough sometimes well yeah, because you're like I want this, 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.640 and this other person who you share half of your 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.400 estate with says no, I want this, or I want 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:32.840 to do this, or I want to do that, or 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.960 I want a vacation here there exactly, just in keeping 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.120 up with schedules. It's all very complicated. It's all compromise. 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.120 There's one big, complicent compromise, and you're compromising between two 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.800 people's opinions. Imagine just throwing in one extra opinion that 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:53.800 differs from the other two equal weight exactly. So that's 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.120 basically what we're getting at is, if you think your 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:00.120 marriage is complicated, polyamory can be even more complicated it 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.160 And they admit that it can be more complicated, but 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.480 they say that, Uh. And this is really what I 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.600 gathered from reading that site in a bunch of articles, 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.320 is that one to one you want to meet a 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:17.240 great communicator, go talk to someone in a polyamorous relationship. Yeah. 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:22.080 So that's one of the chief requirements of polyamory, be 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.040 able to talk about all this stuff I've seen it 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:28.280 put as you have highly evolved communication skills. I would 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:34.200 not a good polyamora man like I wouldn't last two days. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.200 You know, I stink. I stink at communicating. I think 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.520 I'm just doing fine, and it turns out, oh wait, 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.280 I didn't say that, Chuck. Is this bothering? You know? 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:46.840 But it's really bothering. Well that's another thing too. Not 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:48.959 only do you have to be a great communicator and 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.639 get your point across and read other people and listen 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.600 in that kind of thing. But you also have to 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.280 be honest about your feelings. One of the things that 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.960 polyamorous face, just like anybody else's jealousy. We did a 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:07.439 pretty good episode on jealousy a while back, Jealousy with 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.320 a question mark um, and so they deal with jealousy 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.960 and and and they deal with it apparently ideally. Again 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.720 this is from more than two dot com in a 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:23.360 way where it would take a pretty intelligent, calm person 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.199 to approach the feelings of jealousy like this, which is 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.840 basically deconstructing it. So the guy at more than two 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:34.600 dot com I kind of gave a good example where 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:39.200 he was saying, um, you're in a polyamorous relationship and 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:44.520 it bugs you when your spouse kisses. There are other 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:49.280 spouse in front of you, right, And he says the 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:53.720 correct thing to do basically here is to stop and say, Okay, 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.600 why does that make me jealous? And if you are 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:58.760 honest with yourself, you'll say, well, it makes me jealous 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.240 because I worried that the your spouse. And by the way, 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.920 in a polyamorous relationship, the plural of spouse is spice. Yes, 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:10.840 so if you're married to two people, you have two spice. Um, 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.000 which is kind of funny. Sure you got spicy. I 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.960 love life anyway. When the other spouse, if if you're 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.920 worried that your spouse is kissing his other spouse, he's 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.280 going to think that that spouse is a better kisser 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.040 than you and think, well, that spouses, if he's better 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.640 kisser then you he wants to be with him more 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:30.360 than me. And if he wants to be with him 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:35.280 more than me, then uh, he's gonna leave me. Is 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.760 often rooted in your own insecurities. So what this guy 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:40.560 was saying is if you spell us out, you realize 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.159 that there's a lot of hidden assumptions and your jealous feelings, 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:47.120 and that when you confront them, you will probably discard 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.440 a lot of them. If you find that, no, this 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.840 is correct, this person really would leave me because that 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:56.040 person is a better kisser. Um, then you would ask yourself, 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:57.800 do I want to be with somebody who would leave 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.000 me because somebody else is a better kisser? Yeah? Um. 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.479 So if you can approach this kind of stuff in 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.639 this manner, that maybe you'd be a decent polyamorous. Yeah, 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.800 there's a lady named Terry Connelly, a professor of psychology 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.440 and women's Studies at University of Michigan. Uh go Wolverines, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.879 and she's she's one of the well, not one of 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.440 the only people. But there haven't been many studies on polyamory. Um. 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.679 One reason is because it's underreported in a lot of 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.679 cases because people some people may not like to be 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.919 uh really out front with it for reasons. Yeah, for 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.320 very good reasons. But she did some studies and polls 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.160 and things, and she found that jealousy is, in fact, 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.359 she said, quote much higher end quote among monogamous pairs 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.439 than non monogamous ones. And I think for the reasons 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.440 you just said, um, she also found um. She interviewed 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:53.520 seventeen hundred individuals Polly, I'm sorry, monogamous individuals, hundred and 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.000 fifty swingers, hundred and seventy people in an open relationship, 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:01.680 and three hundred polyamorous individuals and said that polyamorous tended 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:06.200 to have equal or higher levels of sexual satisfaction. Uh 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.000 and people in open relationships tended to have lower sexual 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:13.280 satisfaction than their monogamous piers and polyamorous peers so, and 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.679 we should say open is not the same as polyamorous. Again, 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.320 in a polyamorous group, the people in the group form 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:25.160 a closed hole. In an open relationship, it's like there's 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.480 two people who are connected, but they're also facing outward 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.159 and the whole world up for grabs, basically right, in 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:37.240 an open relationship, you know, it's not so in polyamorous 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.560 is not an open relationship, and open relationship is not polyamorous. 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:46.240 But a polyamorous relationship could include swinging, from what I understand, Yes, 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:51.800 and did you know that swinging apparently started among World 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:56.160 War two Air Force pilots. You knew that, yeah, because 0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:01.040 you supposedly if your husband died in battle, it was 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.160 just sort of understood that that woman would then take 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:07.320 up with another serviceman. Correct, I guess, but with another 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.720 married serviceman or what? I don't know about that. Well, 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.720 apparently it started out with like we called it, wife 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.199 swapping in World War two in the Air Force, like 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:20.080 specifically the Air Force, not like oh, American servicemen, like 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.440 the Air Force. So I guess they know who it was. Um. 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:26.320 I think I told the story about the Atlantis Swingers 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.239 Club was very close to my phone number growing up, 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:30.960 and we used to I was a kid. I had 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:32.439 no idea what it meant, of course, and I used 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:34.119 to answer the phone and people would be like just 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:38.119 the Atlanti singers, they'd just be like my mom would 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:41.040 just remember it was so like troublesome to her, and 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:43.359 how she kept the whistle next to the phone and 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:47.159 would blow a whistle into it. It's so funny to 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:54.280 think about, man, very funny. I still remember that number two. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:23:00.639 Do you remember your original phone number? Nine? Isn't that crazy? UM, 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:03.480 I'm sorry for anyone who has those numbers today, or 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:09.160 to the Atlantic Swingers Club, which is still operational, I'm sure. UM. 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:11.200 All right, Another thing we need to talk about are 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.480 s t I s UM sexually transmitted infection. You would 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.760 think that UM, it would be higher in a polyamorous relationship, 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.960 and they don't have statistics that may or may not 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.520 be the case. But what they are adamant about is 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.119 lots of testing and lots of access to those results 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:36.920 and being super open about those results. UM apparently much 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:41.160 more so than UM. People in monogumous relationships like new 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.959 new relationships. They found that people in new monogamous relationships 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.159 are often very shy about talking about their sexual history 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:54.639 and potential UM infections and things, whereas they're really up 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.120 front about it in polyamory. Yeah, and and they kind 0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.080 of have to be, and they kind of just make 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.679 it a normal, open thing. But that's part of that open, 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:07.280 honest communication. That's that's kind of a hallmark of polyamory. 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:11.440 And even it has a practical application and defending against 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:13.560 s t I S. Yeah, they did. There was one 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:17.639 study in twelve in the Journal of Sexual Medicine that 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:24.080 found that um unfaithful like cheaters, not like uh, like 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.600 a cheater, you're in a monogous relationship. In your cheating, 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:30.439 they're much more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.639 and to keep it a secret than someone in a 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:36.480 polyamorous relationship. You go off and your cheat and you 0:24:36.560 --> 0:24:39.000 keep quiet and you do something super risky, you know, 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.800 hook up with someone randomly that you don't know. And 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:45.480 that's just that's kind of like the opposite of polyamory 0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:48.720 from what it sounds like. Right, with polyamory, it's like, Okay, 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:52.480 it's you, it's time for your weekly STD test, right, 0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:55.040 I want to see the paper, and we're not hooking 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:57.440 up with some random person there. If there are one 0:24:57.480 --> 0:24:59.920