1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works in a love all things tech, and 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: welcome to another classic episode of tech Stuff. In this episode, 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: we talk about the concept of anonymity. Anonymity is one 7 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: of those things that the Internet was kind of built 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: off of, and there's been sort of a love hate 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: relationship between anonymity and the need to have some form 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: of accountability on the Internet. This episode originally published on 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: August two thousand eleven. It's one of the true classics 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: of tech Stuff. Chris Palette and I have this conversation. 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy this discussion about anonymity. So we're 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: gonna talk today about anonymity and the web and its 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: relationship with one another and how things have been changing 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: over time. And this also ties a lot into a 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: privacy in the web. In fact, the two are these 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: topics are all very closely related. But um it's it's 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: been in the news a lot recently, and by recently 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: I mean the summer of of two thousand eleven because 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: of a couple of different things. First of all, a 22 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: couple of years ago you had um or it was 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: only a year ago, but you had Mark Zuckerberg say 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 1: that the the whole notion of privacy was falling out 25 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: of social norms, meaning that people today don't value privacy 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: or don't think of privacy is something that's important the 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: way that generations earlier had, uh you know, thought of 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: the subject. So uh, that was that actually kind of 29 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: explains a lot about certain things that Facebook has done 30 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: over the past, where you know, it's all about sharing information, 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: particularly information about yourself and the things you like to 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: do in the places you like to go. And then 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, the the argument I think someone at Facebook 34 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,839 Speaker 1: would make is that the more you share, the more 35 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: you're going to get out of that service. So if 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: you do not share a lot, you won't really benefit 37 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: from the service the way you do if you are 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: someone who shares lots of stuff. Although even that, you know, 39 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: we could anyone could tell you if they have a 40 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: friend who shares absolutely everything that that can get old too. Yes. Sorry, Look, 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: I thought it was a particularly interesting bowl of oatmeal, 42 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: so I shared it. Well, it's always nice to share otmeal. 43 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, but all right, anyway, we're getting off 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: track because I mean I just go back to the 45 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: Oatmeal party where Josh Clark did that well anyway, So 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: so Facebook's approach is saying that anonymity and privacy are 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: really kind of those are old ideas that we're slowly 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: seeing phase out. And then the other thing that kind 49 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: of brought this into attention was a Google launching Google Plus, 50 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: and we did that episode on Google Plus, that epic 51 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: Google Plus episode. One thing we didn't really talk about 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: that much was that Google Plus. You know, in order 53 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: to have a Google Plus profile, you have to have 54 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: a Google profile. In order to have a Google profile, 55 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: it has to be a Google profile that's public because 56 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: they eliminated all private Google profiles, And you had to 57 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: have a name associated with that profile. And it didn't 58 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: have to necessarily be your legal name, but it did 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: have to be the name that you go by the 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: most frequently. And so you would, you know, I have 61 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: to put a first name in a last name and 62 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: make it make it a legitimate name if it were 63 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: something that was clearly a handle or a nickname or 64 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: just unusual had some odd characters in it, like not 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: like you know, Alex from Clockwork Orange odd characters, but 66 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: like symbols like at symbols or hashtags or things like that. 67 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: Um that Google would flag it and then Google would 68 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: suspend your Google Plus account. It is a darn good 69 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: thing that Prince decided to go back to being prince. Yeah, 70 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: well he the web's over compared if yes, Prince, So 71 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: it's immaterial for this discussion. Point yea irregardless um supposedly supposedly, 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, anyway, if you if you put these these 73 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: symbols into your name, or you had some other weird 74 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: name going in there, Google might flag your account and 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: suspend it. Uh. They then later on kind of adjusted 76 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: that a little bit where they would give you a 77 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: warning saying you need to go into your Google profile 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: and put in your actual name, and you could add 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: in nicknames and stuff and another field called other names, 80 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: but that the name associated with your profile would be 81 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: your real name. Now, that brought up some some questions 82 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: among a lot of users, and it ranges through the 83 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: whole spectrum. You've got the spectrum that includes people who 84 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: are know that their argument is that hey, I have 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: made a a name for myself under this persona. It's 86 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: like a brand. Yeah, a brand exactly. It's like a brand. 87 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,559 Speaker 1: So um The example I used in my blog post 88 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: was Dr Kiki of Dr Kki Science. Yeah, she's she's 89 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: a scientist, um uh. And she is known as Dr Keiki. 90 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: Her first name is I believe Kirsten. But but you know, 91 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: she that's not what everyone knows her as. So she 92 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: created a Google profile using Dr Kiki and um uh, yes, 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: Kirsten Sandford. That's her name, Dr Kirsten Sandford. So she 94 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: went she goes as everyone knows her is Dr Kiki, 95 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: So that's what she created a Google profile as. But 96 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: she her Google Plus profile was suspended because it did 97 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: it violated the rules that Google had set up. And 98 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: Google's argument was that he wanted to create a social 99 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: network that would let people connect with folks they know 100 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: and folks they know of easily, and that that if 101 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: you start putting in handles and things and you're cloaking 102 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: your identity, that's kind of antithetical to what Google meant 103 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: Google Plus two be. The problem is that's not the 104 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: way people use the web. You know, people use the 105 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 1: web in all sorts of different ways. There are people 106 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: who will use their own names as their handles. For example, 107 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm one of those people. I use my own name 108 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: as my handle pretty much everywhere, and uh, the reason 109 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: for that is so that I keep myself accountable for 110 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: the things I say. It's a personal choice. I don't 111 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: judge anyone else who goes by a handle. I totally 112 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: understand that, and I think anonymity is an interesting and 113 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: important issue. I just, for myself choose to use my 114 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: own name because one, uh, that's kind of my brand. 115 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: It's my name at this point. If I had gone 116 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: by some other weird, wacky name, I'd probably be using 117 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: that everywhere. But to you know, it's just again, it 118 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: just keeps me responsible for the things I say. I'm 119 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: less likely to say something really offensive or outrageous or 120 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: just pigheaded because it's attached to my name, and I'm 121 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: not gonna go onto some forum and and tell off 122 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: the person who posted above me that they're a complete 123 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: jerk and an idiot. And you know, I'm I'm less 124 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: likely to do that. I still do it, I just 125 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: don't do it as frequently as I would if I had. 126 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: You know, you know, hamster Man seventy three was my handle, 127 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: and no one knew that that was me. But we 128 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: all know now, well I don't post under that handle anymore. 129 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: You won't find those YouTube comments coming from me anymore. Buster. Yeah, 130 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: well it's funny. Um you need to it's weird to 131 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: put this in perspective, so you know, to some degree, 132 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: I think online Mark Zuckerberg has a point. We've gotten 133 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: to the point where we're interested in social networking. Um. 134 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: We have business profiles on link den dot com. We've 135 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: got uh, Facebook, Twitter, Google Plus and all the others 136 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: for our social fun you know, our our informal networking, 137 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: in some case business networking too. Um and And it's hard. 138 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: It's when you've gotten used to the idea of the 139 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: right to privacy, which, um, you know here in the 140 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: United States we have a certain expectation of personal privacy, 141 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: um and not that's not necessarily true everywhere else in 142 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: the world. But when you've established all these accounts and 143 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: you say, no, I just want to be online and 144 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: have my uh my ten family members and sixty friends, 145 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: and that's it. That's all I want on my account. 146 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: I don't want everyone else to read my posts. Why 147 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: are you making them available? Um? The thing is, Mark 148 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: has a point because if you, you do have that 149 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: right to privacy. But when you join Facebook, the point 150 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: is to be social, and I, you know, I don't 151 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: want I'm one of those people that would prefer to 152 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: socialize with people I know in real life and not 153 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, everybody online that I that I really don't 154 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: know that well. But at the same time, you know, 155 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: if if I joined Facebook and I don't have, you know, 156 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: I have to play the rules, by the rules of Facebook, 157 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: and if Facebook says on Facebook, you don't have the 158 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: right to privacy. And to the same extent, I mean, 159 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: you're you're everyone can see you. Now. You don't have 160 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: to publish your stuff so that the world can read 161 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: every single post you write, but everybody's going to be 162 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: able to see that you have a profile. And that's 163 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: just the way it is on Facebook. And um, you know, 164 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: I I see the annoyance, but I don't see why 165 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: people get so very angry simply because you've you're you're 166 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: agreeing to the terms of service for joining those accounts. 167 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons I wasn't anxious to 168 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: uh join Google Plus right away. It was because I 169 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: realized that I was gonna have to make my profile 170 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: public and everybody was going to be able to see 171 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: it was me, And um, you're not allowed to use 172 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: your nickname because I mean, not only is that against 173 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: the rules, but it also shows up against your account. 174 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: So if I wanted to be Larry the Wonder Beagle, 175 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: then all my email on Gmail comes from Larry the 176 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: Wonder Beagle, and I don't want to do that because 177 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: I keep in touch with you. You would essentially have 178 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: to create a second Gmail account just for your Google 179 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: Plus profile in that case, which you could theoretically do, 180 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: although you're again kind of skirting the rules there. Yeah. Yeah, so, 181 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 1: I mean that's and it would be annoying because you 182 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: always have to log out of one account and log 183 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: into the other whenever you wanted to check your quote 184 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: unquote real email. Yeah, exactly. It's a it's a pain 185 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: in the neck. But the thing is, and again, this 186 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the actual law. This has 187 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: to do with the terms of service of the website 188 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: you're using, and it is it is frustrating. Hey guys, 189 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: it's Jonathan back in two thousand and eighteen. I just 190 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: wanted to interrupt here to say we need to have 191 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: a quick break to thank our sponsor. I think there 192 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: are some people who who agree, like, all right, I 193 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: get it. If I want to be on blah blah blah, 194 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: I have to play by their roles. I think the 195 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: fear is that the approach to eliminating anonymity entirely, they're 196 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: they're worried about that being more of a broad approach 197 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: to the web in general. Yeah, and I worry about 198 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: that too. Yeah, that's something that I'm not interested because 199 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: because that would be let's let's say that Twitter made 200 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: that same same decision that your Twitter handle had to 201 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: be your first and last name. Now for me, it 202 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: happens to be that, but the shortened version of my 203 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: first name because Jonathan Strickland does not fit as a 204 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: full Twitter handle. Um, so you know, Johnny cakes, that's me. No, 205 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: it's not, It's not really me anyway, so the cake 206 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: cake I prefer pie anyway. If Twitter did that, then 207 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, you think about that there there, We've seen 208 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: Twitter being used in things like a political revolutions, you know, 209 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: political unrest, turmoil, riots, that kind of thing, protests, uh, 210 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: situations where the people who are organizing it definitely would 211 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: not want their their identity shared with the general public 212 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: because it would put themselves in danger, literal physical danger, 213 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: and it would it would help prevent them from doing 214 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: the the political activist work they were trying to do. 215 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: Like if they were to post something and it was 216 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: traced back to their identity, they could be you know, 217 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: theoretically by by an oppressive government brought in and then 218 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: not only do you have a person brought in by 219 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: the same government they were trying to protest, but whatever 220 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: activities they were trying to organize have been, um, you know, 221 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:45,599 Speaker 1: have been somewhat well sidetracked, have been have been sabotaged 222 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: exactly because you no longer have that anonymity. And so 223 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: there is a definite place for anonymity on the web. 224 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: So you here here, Like, let's talk about some of 225 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: the different arguments that people make for and against anonymity. Okay, 226 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: so we've already covered one of them, which is that, 227 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, if you want to be able to connect 228 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: with people, you need to be able to know who 229 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: to look for. And it's kind of hard to look 230 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: for someone if everyone's using up fake names everywhere. So 231 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: that's one argument against anonymity. Um another is another argument 232 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: against anonymity is that, uh, making someone use their own 233 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: name kind of the way I was explained my own 234 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: personal approach, uh, keep some somewhat accountable for their words 235 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: and actions. So, in other words, the idea is that 236 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: if you make sure that people cannot be anonymous, you 237 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: really cut back on trolling. That's that's ultimately what we 238 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: get down to. So can you imagine what a place 239 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: YouTube would be if everyone had to use their real 240 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: names and like there was a way of really linking 241 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: an account to an actual person as opposed to just 242 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: a handle, because I mean, you look at some of 243 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,239 Speaker 1: the quotes on YouTube, and they are some of the meanest, nastiest, 244 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: mean spirited stuff I've ever read anywhere, and just on 245 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: the typical video even you know something that a video 246 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: that has no objectionable material in it, it's just silly, 247 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: or it's or it's even you know, even if it's boring. 248 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes you kill the nastiest responses. And so the argument 249 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: is that, well, if you made sure that people could 250 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: not be anonymous, couldn't hide behind a pseudonym or a handle, 251 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: that they would be nicer. And that's probably true for 252 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: most people, they would probably be nicer. I don't think 253 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: that it would magically make the web a shiny, happy 254 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: place and no one would ever disagree with anyone, and 255 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: you would never have anyone call anyone else a hurtful 256 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: name or anything that's naive. That would still happen, but 257 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: I think it would cut down quite a bit on 258 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: the trollish behavior. But I don't know that the trade 259 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: off is worth that, you know, So anyway, those are 260 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: those are two arguments against anonymity. But one that we've 261 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: mentioned already is what if you want to be able 262 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: to protest something or to bring attention to an issue 263 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: that could get yourself in trouble, um, just because of 264 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: your circumstances. That's true, um. And then there's a difference 265 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: to I mean, we could take, uh, we could take 266 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: specifically the the example of Google itself. So on the 267 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: one hand, you've got Google Plus, which is a social 268 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: networking service that is optional for you to join you 269 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: if you if you want to join the service. Currently 270 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: as of the time we're recording this, you have to 271 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: use your real name and that's up to you. You 272 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: do not have to join Google Plus. Then you have 273 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: Google street View. On the other hand, and this again 274 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: long term listeners will know that We've talked about this 275 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: before on the on previous podcasts. So Google street View 276 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: the idea of being that Google is sending cars on 277 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: driving around neighborhoods, driving on city streets, um, and basically 278 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: they take pana ramic photos of the street so you 279 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: can see I personally find it really helpful when I'm 280 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: looking for a business that I've never seen before. I'm 281 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: trying to get there and you can go look it 282 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: up online and see a picture of what it looks like. Oh, 283 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: it's the green building, and you can pan around and 284 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: see what the surrounding buildings are and you can you 285 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: get an idea for the landmarks. Yes, it's it's it's 286 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: really a neat idea, a concept on the table right 287 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: there is a neat idea, especially when you apply to 288 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: things like I want to take a virtual tour of 289 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: a city I've never been in, and you could literally 290 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: do that if you have a fast enough connection to 291 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: the Internet and a good processor, then yeah you can. 292 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: You can you know, navigate through street View and go 293 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: down streets in cities just as if you were there, 294 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: um without the like, you know, you can stroll down 295 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: New York City at night without worrying about getting bugged. 296 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: So I don't think it'd be at night. Well, no, 297 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: but it would. It would be kind of hard to see. 298 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: But um, and there are there are many funny stories 299 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: about Google street View, the cameras getting knocked off by 300 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: low bridges and people doing crazy things. People hearing that 301 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: street view was coming through, so they arrange for some 302 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: sort of bizarre demonstration or or sword fire mooning, you know, 303 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. But the thing is to people 304 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: complain that they're taking photos of their houses without any permission. 305 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: It's an invasion of privacy, as the argument. Yes, um, 306 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: and so there you go. You you you know, suddenly 307 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: your house is there and you can't opt out of it. Yeah. Yeah, 308 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: so you know. Plus there are many many phone directories 309 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: with with information in there. Uh they scrape phone books 310 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: and you know their of course legitimate phone books as 311 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: well phone directories online. So if you put two and 312 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: two together, you can figure out where somebody lives and 313 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: what their house looks like. Yeah. Now, if you've, if 314 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: you've managed to stay unlisted and everything, then there may 315 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: not be a connection between you the person and your 316 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: wherever you call home. So but for the majority of people. 317 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you know, with a little snooping, you 318 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: could easily figure out where someone lives, and then through 319 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: street view you can see you can actually see their 320 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: their house, which I mean, you know, you can argue, 321 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: well that let's let's let's potential thieves case the joint 322 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 1: without ever leaving, um, leaving wherever they are. You know 323 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: they can they can look it up and then get 324 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: a real good view at least to the front of 325 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: the house, maybe even the back of the house, depending 326 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: on how your neighborhoods laid out. And you could use 327 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: the satellite view in in one of the mapping services 328 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: or in Google Earth to get an idea of the 329 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: lay of the lands. So it's you know, it's one 330 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: of those arguments where you make well, this this can 331 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: make us less safe and and there that is a 332 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: good argument for anonymity, saying that, well, I understand that 333 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: there are uses for this technology and that um that 334 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: it can come in handy and it's a fun technology, 335 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: but there are also some serious consequences or there can 336 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: be serious consequences to enabling this technology and immediately opting 337 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: everyone in. It's not like you had a choice as 338 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: far as street view is concerned. I mean, there are 339 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: some very famous cases of towns that the essentially told 340 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: Google to go uh google themselves and get the heck 341 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: out of Dodge, although Dodge was not one of those towns. 342 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and some gated communities places like that. In course, 343 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,239 Speaker 1: in in Europe, there have been many cases, um, in 344 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: different countries in Europe where uh, you know, they they've 345 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: taken Google to court and said, you do not have 346 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: the authority to do this, um, you know, because it 347 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: violates our country's privacy laws. So um, you know, it's 348 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: it's it's difficult, you know, on on, but it's there 349 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: is a definite difference in um, you know, things like 350 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: being signing up to be unlisted from your phone company 351 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: and deciding to opt out of social networking services versus um, 352 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 1: you know, what other people post about you online. And 353 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: that's another thing too. You you can't control what other 354 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: people do, um not yet, but I'm working on it. 355 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: That's why I brought a crown in today. Yeah he did, 356 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: sitting right on the table right between us right now. Um. 357 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, you know, I've had pictures tagged 358 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: on Facebook, um, and you know, with my name on them, 359 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: and I'm kind of the point where I try to 360 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: avoid having that done, and I go and remove the 361 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: tags simply because I'm less comfortable being public than other 362 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: people there. But I can that I think there's this, well, 363 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure actually that Facebook has in its privacy 364 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: settings a setting where you can go in and make 365 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: sure that if someone wants to tag you in a 366 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: photo that it has that requests your permission before the 367 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: tag goes public. So you can actually tweak that setting, 368 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: although like all Facebook privacy settings, it's not the easiest 369 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: thing to find. You have to kind of do a 370 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: little digging. Um. Google Plus is is kind of the 371 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: same way in a sense, it's a lot easier to 372 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: control who sees your information when you use Google Plus 373 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: because you can just at every stage you can determine 374 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: which bits of information are visible to others and which 375 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: ones aren't and uh, and you can specify you know, 376 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 1: which users can see it, like a circle or just 377 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: a specific user. But even so, it's it's still a 378 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: lot of stuff to wade through. Hey, guys, Jonathan two 379 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: thousand eighteen, present day, looking back on the past. Before 380 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: we conclude this discussion about anonymity, let's take another quick 381 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: break to thank our sponsor. Another thing about well, another 382 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: argument you can make against anonymity. We we've already touched 383 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: on this about the trolling, but if you really want 384 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: to see and I don't recommend you do this, but 385 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: if you if you want to see what the power 386 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 1: of anonymity, you can go to a uh community like 387 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: community like four chan. Yes, now, four chan is we've 388 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: talked about before. It's a it's a message board that 389 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: allows you to post things anonymously. You don't have to 390 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: create an account. You can create a handle and you 391 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: can either use the same handle or you can use 392 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: a different handle every time you log in if you 393 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: want to. Um, Actually, that would probably make you less 394 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: likely to be traced because you're using a different one. 395 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: You're not creating an identity for yourself. Is there a 396 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: spout too, or just a handle? It's just a handle. 397 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: It's actually two handles. I'm a sugar dish um. So 398 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: the the idea here, but four chann is that you 399 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: can share stuff without ever having to to link it 400 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: back to yourself personally. And they actually have a couple 401 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: of chann and not everything on four chan is is 402 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: of objectionable material. Right. Uh, there's a lot of stuff 403 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: on Fortune that's all about uh, you know, a lot 404 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: of its Japanese pop culture stuff, especially um manga and anime. 405 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: But there are some channels in four chan, the random 406 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: channel being the most famous channel where anything goes and 407 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: people are using um anonymous handles in or or to 408 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: post stuff, usually in order to get a reaction out 409 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: of other people, um, either to make them laugh or 410 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: to shock them, or to discuss them or whatever. But 411 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of about it's about as close to 412 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: chaos as I can think of really. Um, not that 413 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: it's not interesting or entertaining at times, but it's often 414 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: very uh disturbing to look at. So you look at 415 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: that and you say, well, if if maintaining anonymity on 416 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: the web means getting this kind of reaction where you 417 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: get the sort of of people trying to do whatever 418 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: they can to get a reaction of other folks, that's 419 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: an easy thing to point out and say, well, this 420 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: is why we don't want anonymity, right. I think it's 421 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: I think it's misleading because it's it's stating that just 422 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: because you want to be anonymous, you want to cause trouble, 423 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: and I think that's you know, I don't think you 424 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: can draw that conclusion, but I think that that's something 425 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: that a lot of people who argue against anonymity, um, 426 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: they will they will point their finger at places like 427 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: or or sites like four chan and say, well, that's why. 428 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: And I think that's shortsighted. I mean, I I just 429 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: point to the political unrest in places like Egypt or 430 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: uh Libya or Iran or Iraq, where you know, we've 431 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: seen social networking come into play and help people, and say, well, 432 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: this is where anonymity is really important. And without it, uh, 433 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: it's possible that these people would have suffered more. It's 434 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: possible that the world would have remained ignorant of what 435 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: was going on for the most part, because we would 436 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: just get mainstream media coverage of whatever those events were. 437 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: And either, you know, you can be cynical. You could 438 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: say that mainstream media just doesn't do a good job 439 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: of covering that kind of information, and you know, that's 440 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: that's an argument for a different podcast. Or you could 441 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: say that mainstream media does an okay job, we just 442 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: have become very good at ignoring it, cynical in a 443 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: different away, or it could be a combination of the two. Um, 444 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm not arguing any of those things, of just saying 445 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: that without that, you know, if we had had the 446 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: social media, without the social media, we all we'd have 447 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: is the mainstream media approach. With the social media, it 448 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: tends to put up even when it's anonymous, it puts 449 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: a personal spin on these stories that tend to hook 450 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: us as human beings into them. Yeah. And and I 451 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: think it's also important for us to touch on enforcement. Yeah, 452 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: because you know, although Facebook and Google Plus are are 453 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: currently requiring people to use, you know, a real name 454 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: or at least the name they go by. Um, no, 455 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: nobody's requiring a birth certificate. And even then, you know, 456 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: a birth certificate could be faked. Um, let's not get 457 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: into that. But I mean, yeah, I mean you could. 458 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: You could doctor a document and send it into Facebook 459 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 1: and say hey, so, nopsie, that's right, you real name. Um, 460 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,479 Speaker 1: so you know, there there nobody's actually doing that. And 461 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: I know people who don't use their real names on Facebook. 462 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: And for a while there they were removing people. I 463 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: assume they probably still are, but I remember it being 464 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: a big thing a while back, a few months ago, 465 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: maybe a year ago and I thought, oh, well, you know, 466 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: my friend is going to have his profile removed. It 467 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: never happened when it's clearly, you know, he goes by 468 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: a band name, you know, the name of a character 469 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: creative for the for a band that he's in, and 470 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: it's like, uh, like the remote stage person it's a 471 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: stage persona and it's clearly not a name. Well, which 472 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: you could clearly you could do that for a fan 473 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: page without any issue at all, but for a personal 474 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: page that does tend to get a little like if 475 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: people notice, they get or if people if if the 476 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: company that is providing the service notices, you might have 477 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: some issues. But some people with particularly unusual names I've 478 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: been reading about Google Plus have had their profiles removed 479 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: and actually it's their real name. Yea, let's happened. I 480 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: mean there are some there's some fun names out there. 481 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm reminded of my my my sister's vet Dr Stacy Stacy. Seriously, yeah, 482 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: Stacy Stacy. Interesting. Yeah, she says everything twice twice. Check 483 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: the papers, check the papers. Um she's at any rate. Yeah, 484 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: there there are issues where we see people who are 485 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: legitimately following the rules, who being punished for not following 486 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: the rules just because they happen to have an unusual name. Um, 487 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna fall find that pretty much in any kind 488 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: of environment where they are requiring people to use real names. 489 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: Just because you know, we're human beings, we come up 490 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: with some interesting combinations for names. Sometimes we marry into them. 491 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes we just luck out in our born into them. 492 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes our parents have a cruel since humor Moxi crime 493 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: Fighter being a good one, Pen Gilette's daughter Moxi crime 494 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: Fighter Gilette. That's true. I'm not making that. I don't 495 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: I don't have any doubts since I don't remember some 496 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: of the countries around the web Moon Unit Moon Units that. 497 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: But that's what I meant. Um, yeah, they Yeah, they were. 498 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: I remember seeing legislation in several countries where people were 499 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: trying to name their kids things like Superman. Wow. Really 500 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: um but but yeah, I mean, and it's very difficult 501 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: to enforce that without requiring any kind of proof, and 502 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: so they're sort of going through and going, well, I'm 503 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't seem like a real name, so you can 504 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: go ahead a lot of guesswork. So yeah, yeah, I'm 505 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: sure that Google plus I Google seems like one of 506 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: those companies that's really eager to please, and I think 507 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: I think there are cases like this. Is This is 508 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: also an issue Google Plus runs in too, when it 509 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: opens up a private beta and the there's a disproportionate 510 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: number of people in the private beta who are public personas, 511 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: especially in the tech world, because you have people who 512 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: are known by their brand. So Google Plus kind of 513 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: brought it in on themselves in this case. But at 514 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: least they're learning this lesson very early on before it 515 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: the recording of this podcast. They haven't gone open, they 516 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: haven't opened up the social network yet, so hopefully this 517 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: stuff will get ironed out so that UM, if you 518 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: do want to use a nickname or a brand or 519 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: something as your persona, you should be able to UM. 520 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: There's been discussion at Google about finding ways of making 521 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: that happen, although it may not. It may mean that 522 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: you have to create a sort of profile that's not 523 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: the same as a personal profile, kind of like on Facebook, 524 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: where you have fan pages or group pages, and then 525 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: you have your personal pages. UM, I think picture pages. 526 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: I think the concern really I have is not um 527 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 1: whether or not you could be anonymous on Google Plus, 528 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: or on Facebook or whatever. My concern is that you 529 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: start to see the generation of movers and shakers in 530 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: the web space, like the Mark Zuckerberg's of the web, 531 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: who say that they think that privacy is no longer 532 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: a social norm. That concerns me. And the reason that 533 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: concerns me is because that means that if that, if 534 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: that attitude becomes prevalent throughout the web, then and then 535 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: it will become a thing of the past in all 536 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: but the smallest niche communities. So that's really where I'm concerned, 537 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: not so much in the specific cases of Google and Facebook, 538 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: but in a more general web wide case. And will 539 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: we see anonymity get stamped out? I don't. I don't 540 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: think that will ever happen across the board, but I 541 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: can certainly see privacy and anonymity taking kind of a 542 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: uh diminished role in the future. Well I, um, you know, 543 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: I personally like to retain a great deal of my privacy. Um. 544 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I do think that anonymity 545 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: can breed a sense of um recklessness when when people 546 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: are willing to say whatever they feel like they can 547 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: get away with well without any kinds of repercussion and 548 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: I don't I don't particularly approve of that. Um. But 549 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, at the same time too, I think, uh, 550 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, the idea that we have all given up 551 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: our privacy and this is just the way things are 552 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: going to be also encourages people to share too much information. 553 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: You know, Hey, I'm going out of town for two weeks. 554 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: Look at this. Here, here are pictures of my trip. 555 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, and then two posts later, Oh, 556 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: the police just called. Someone broke into my house. Yeah, 557 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: you know. I mean if if if you go, well, 558 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's all public anyway, who cares? Then you know, 559 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: you're I I think I don't think there's as much 560 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: to discourage you from over sharing things that you shouldn't share. Well, yeah, 561 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: And and the Internet has made it so easy to 562 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: share things as soon as you think of them that uh, 563 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: that's that's also an issue. Like the Google Plus setting 564 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: for your phone that instantly uploads any photo you take. Yes, 565 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: but you don't have to have those shared publicly. You 566 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: don't have to. But if you don't, yes, um yeah, 567 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: the yes is getting easier and easier for you to 568 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: to upload your thoughts immediately to the Internet without filtering 569 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: them first, which is why whenever I make my social network, 570 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a little window pup ups, do you 571 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: really want to post that? And when you click yes, 572 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: do you really really want to post that? And then 573 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: when you click yes it it posts. And then at 574 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: the very end it says if this is stupid, it's 575 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: not because I didn't tell him. So well, that's that's 576 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: why I started my own anti social network and I 577 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: am I am the only member, right uh, and that 578 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: is unlikely to change, right, It's just it's just it's 579 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: just me. It's just a black web page. You go 580 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: to the web page, there's nothing on it. It's just 581 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: it's just black. Well, it saves me a lot of 582 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: time because they don't have to check it very often. Yeah, 583 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. There is at the very bomb, if you 584 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: scroll all the way down and it's long, there's an 585 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: under construction boom shovel digging with the hard hat because 586 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna bring geo cities back one web page at 587 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: a time. And that is the classic episode of tech 588 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: Stuff about anonymity. I hope you guys enjoyed it big 589 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: thanks to my original co host, Chris Poulette, who I 590 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: always enjoyed having conversations with on or off the microphone. 591 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: If you guys have any suggestions for future episodes of 592 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: tech Stuff, let me know send me an email. The 593 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: address for the show is tech Stuff at how stuff 594 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: works dot com, or drop me a line on Facebook 595 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: or Twitter. The handle there is text stuff H s W. 596 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: Don't forget. You can follow us on Instagram and I'll 597 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon. For more on this 598 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works 599 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: dot com.