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Speaker 1: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance.

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Speaker 2: Somebody was in that house then it was a It

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Speaker 2: sounded to me like a woman's voice.

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Speaker 3: I really don't want to say anything.

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Speaker 4: Why is that?

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Speaker 3: Because I'm tired of being dragged in the middle of it.

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Speaker 5: If you're not in the middle, oh.

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Speaker 3: I have been for the last twenty two years. How

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Speaker 3: did you tell you to fight me here?

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Speaker 2: So you remember seeing him my boyfriend my.

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Speaker 3: Ex husband now, but my boyfriend at the time.

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Speaker 1: We saw him there that night.

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Speaker 2: If Joe's giving her permission so to speak, to talk

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Speaker 2: with us, you would think Joe's not worried about what

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Speaker 2: she's going to tell us.

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Speaker 5: I truly, honestly believe he didn't do it. I know

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Speaker 5: David wanted him to, and I was under the impression

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Speaker 5: that Dave was going to pay him to.

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Speaker 1: This is Death and Deceit in Alliance, a real time

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Speaker 1: investigation into whether da Vid Thorn killed Yvonne Lane. I'm

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Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling. After months of investigating, all roads lead back

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Speaker 1: to Joe. Rose and Chris didn't change their statements. Alternate

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Speaker 1: suspects didn't pan out, but Joe confessed and said that

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Speaker 1: David Thorne was the mastermind and so that's where the

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Speaker 1: investigation has to go to prison. And to be clear,

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Speaker 1: I personally will not speak to Joe for this. As

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Speaker 1: you know, the private investigators, John and Danny advised me

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Speaker 1: to let them do all the interviews. They say anything

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Speaker 1: I may say or ask a witness could taint the

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Speaker 1: investigation in the eyes of the law. I'm just here documenting.

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Speaker 1: So they wrote Joe and explained who they are and

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Speaker 1: what they're doing investigating yvon Lane's murder to find out

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Speaker 1: if David's claims of innocence are true, and we were

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Speaker 1: hopeful Joe would reply, but far from shore. Joe had

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Speaker 1: spoken in the past to Sue, David's wife, chief supporter

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Speaker 1: and lead investigator unofficially. Now from messages I've seen between

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Speaker 1: Sue and Joe and hearing all the interviews he's done

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Speaker 1: with Sue and other media, I really did not think

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Speaker 1: that Joe would be too happy to hear from anyone. Plus,

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Speaker 1: if you remember, by cooperating and confessing that he killed

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Speaker 1: Vonn himself and then by telling police that David had

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Speaker 1: hired him to kill her, he got a lesser sentence

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Speaker 1: than David thirty years with the possibility of parole. Joe

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Speaker 1: had already done twenty two years at this point, he

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Speaker 1: could be looking at freedom in twenty twenty nine. I

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Speaker 1: figured he would have no interest in all of this

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Speaker 1: getting brought up again. I thought he would want to

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Speaker 1: finish out his time and move on with his life.

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Speaker 1: Every time he speaks, his stories conflict, and I was

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Speaker 1: sure he was over it. In fact, I figured he

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Speaker 1: would actually send the investigators a nasty message back telling

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Speaker 1: them to fuck off or something if he even responded.

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Speaker 1: But neither of those things happened. Joe wrote back, eager

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Speaker 1: to talk and tell his story. So the guys worked

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Speaker 1: on setting up a legal visit, which proved to be

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Speaker 1: next to impossible in Ohio to get done quickly. So

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Speaker 1: we waited and waited, and while waiting, we couldn't waste

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Speaker 1: any more time, so we decided to track down other

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Speaker 1: key witnesses. Now, as you know, I've had to edit

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Speaker 1: interviews for time and clarity. You only get to hear

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Speaker 1: tidbits and pieces of what everyone says, like Joe. For example,

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Speaker 1: although I've played the key bits of Joe's interview, there

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Speaker 1: were small parts I left out to avoid confusion, and

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Speaker 1: one of those parts was actually not so small at all.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge bombshell I left until now. During

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Speaker 1: the interrogation, police asked Joe if he told anyone about

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Speaker 1: killing Yvonne Uncle sadammo Well be stung Shampeg. Joe said

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Speaker 1: he told his friend Samantha Peg that he murdered Yvonne.

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Speaker 1: Now I thought this was odd. He mentioned Sam and

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Speaker 1: not Rose and Chris, the couple he supposedly ran into

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Speaker 1: at the mall and told he was going to kill

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Speaker 1: a woman that night. So I was immediately skeptical was

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Speaker 1: this true? But police recorded an interview with Sam several

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Speaker 1: months after the murder, and we have that audio.

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Speaker 4: To day is Sunday, July eighteenth, nineteen ninety nine, at

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Speaker 4: the time of ten twenty nine hours. My name is detective,

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Speaker 4: but Sampson's Alliance fleets for me. Also in the room

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Speaker 4: is detecting Walliae Muckwell from the alliance splates part.

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Speaker 1: Sam Peg was Joe's best friend, in fact, one of

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Speaker 1: his only friends. They went to school together.

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Speaker 4: We got that great relationships. You can tell him anything,

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Speaker 4: usually talk back and forth with book.

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Speaker 1: And what Sam had to tell the police about her

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Speaker 1: best friend was damning.

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Speaker 4: And did you have a chance to talk alone with Joe?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: When was this.

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Speaker 6: At the end of the year, in between the eighteenth

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Speaker 6: and the twenty fifth, and Howard was to meet her

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Speaker 6: at that time.

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Speaker 4: How did you see it?

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Speaker 6: Pea?

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Speaker 3: He came that about it?

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Speaker 6: He Canada house and the kind of shook up a little.

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Speaker 6: But ja is next thing, We're gonna like it, and

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Speaker 6: wal calculated.

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Speaker 1: So later came around, all right.

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Speaker 6: Joe goes, I mean touch went wrong and go downstairs

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Speaker 6: and then yeah, and so went downstairs and goes, you

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Speaker 6: know my tray and Dave why her chalk about him?

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Speaker 6: He goes, well, if you had me feel the next wife?

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Speaker 6: And I asked him mine? He said to coach, you

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Speaker 6: want to coach to the under the state? And I said, well,

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Speaker 6: did you do it? Yeah?

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Speaker 7: Okay, And she's, you know, saying that she was coerced

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Speaker 7: by police or forced in some way to outright live

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Speaker 7: about ever telling her that, then I'm gonna ask her

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Speaker 7: to sign an affidavit and make it legally binding and

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Speaker 7: see what she says.

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure she's gonna say that.

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Speaker 4: We'll see.

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Speaker 1: John and Danny wondered about the validity of her statement.

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Speaker 1: Now Sam has not spoken to anyone since her police

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Speaker 1: statement that we know of, and despite her seemingly damning allegation,

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Speaker 1: she did not testify at trial. However, she did testify

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Speaker 1: at the grand jury, which happened before trial, and for trial,

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Speaker 1: she was subpoenaed, but the police couldn't find her. However,

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Speaker 1: we were determined to do so. We heard from Sue

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Speaker 1: that Sam was still in the area. When Sue went

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Speaker 1: to speak with her years ago, she slammed the door

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Speaker 1: in her face, but based on Sam's social media she

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Speaker 1: was clearly still interested in the case. We got the

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Speaker 1: impression Sam was a no bullshit kind of person, street savvy, tough,

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Speaker 1: and we realized it might be even harder to get

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Speaker 1: Sam to open up than it was Chris. We had

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Speaker 1: to get her though, after all, she dropped this bombshell

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Speaker 1: on social media.

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Speaker 3: Really talked to her, but she wrote that comment.

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Speaker 2: She wrote a comment in twenty thirteen. She wrote on

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Speaker 2: some social media you a posts about she didn't think

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Speaker 2: Joe did it.

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Speaker 1: And Joe shouldn't have involved her, which is a really

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Speaker 1: weird statement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's really what we know about her, and

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Speaker 2: so the angle will be Listen, We know that you've

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Speaker 2: made posts since this conviction that you believe Joe's innocent,

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Speaker 2: and you know we're trying to figure that out, and

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Speaker 2: if he is, we're going to help him. So we'd

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Speaker 2: like to visit with you.

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Speaker 1: We went to the most current address for Sam.

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Speaker 3: I have a fine looking dog morning. Is Is Sam around? No, Samantha?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Does she live here? No, she hasn't looked here for

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Speaker 3: a long time.

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Speaker 6: Oh.

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Speaker 1: It turned out out it was her parents' house and

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Speaker 1: she hadn't lived there in a long time. They told

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Speaker 1: John and Danny that they remember it all and even

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Speaker 1: mortgaged their house to hire Sam a lawyer. Her parents

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Speaker 1: told the guys that when Sam got roped into all

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Speaker 1: of this by Joe, the police told her if she

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Speaker 1: knew anything, she had to tell them, threatening charges against her.

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Speaker 1: So we had to find out what Sam knew. Sam

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Speaker 1: wasn't there, but they gave us her address and we

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Speaker 1: went to find her. When we pull up, we saw

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Speaker 1: the car her parents told us she was driving, so

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Speaker 1: we knew she was probably there, and as John and

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Speaker 1: Danny were putting on their microphones next to the car,

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Speaker 1: someone resembling Sam's description exited the building and started walking

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Speaker 1: so they raced over.

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Speaker 3: Are you smarta baby?

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Speaker 8: Joe wilks, and she just doesn't go away, does it?

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Speaker 5: They do their spiel and I really don't want to

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Speaker 5: say anything. Why is that?

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Speaker 3: Because I'm tired of being dregged in the middle of it.

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Speaker 5: If you're not in the middle, oh, I have been

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Speaker 5: for the last twenty two years, really been going on.

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Speaker 1: But surprisingly, Sam says she'll speak on one condition.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you what you talked to Joe. You

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Speaker 3: let me see it, and if he says, go ahead

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Speaker 3: and talk, I'll talk. Okay.

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Speaker 9: But if he's your friend, right, so I understand what

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Speaker 9: I said.

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Speaker 3: No, No, you talked to Joe.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Joe says, go ahead and I talk to me. You

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Speaker 3: let me know and I'll talk till Then.

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Speaker 1: She flashed a peace sign and started to walk away,

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Speaker 1: and that was it. She said we had to get

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Speaker 1: permission from Joe if she was going to talk to us.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the worst outcome. Joe said he was eager

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Speaker 1: to talk to us. We were just waiting for the

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Speaker 1: prison to cooperate. Maybe he'd also be okay with Sam talking. Still,

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Speaker 1: we were left pretty empty handed and feeling beaten down.

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Speaker 1: No Joe. No, Sam, But on our next trip, our

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Speaker 1: luck changed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking the time for us.

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Speaker 1: Joe gave permission for Sam to speak with John and Danny.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've been looking at the case for months,

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Speaker 2: so we're not some of these folks that are coming

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Speaker 2: in and just trying to put something on TV that's

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Speaker 2: going to be Hey.

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Speaker 5: Time, pay investigators, I man, please, I mean it was

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Speaker 5: a full.

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Speaker 3: Out brawl when it first happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he came home from work.

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Speaker 3: My mom said, yeah, put the lawyer, I said, for

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Speaker 3: what she turns on TV.

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Speaker 5: And all than I'm like, oh my god. Yeah yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's when Sam's parents mortgaged their house to afford a

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Speaker 1: lawyer for their daughter.

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Speaker 2: So you and Joe, oh, y'all, y'all were good friends

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Speaker 2: for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the mood was different from last time, less adversarial.

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Speaker 1: They talked about Joe.

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Speaker 9: We're not even sure he remembers exactly what did happen.

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Speaker 9: We feel like he's been fed so much information and

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Speaker 9: if he's innocent, we want to get him out.

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Speaker 3: We do him and David right.

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Speaker 1: The guys asked her what really happened, and she confirmed

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Speaker 1: that Joe did say that to her in the basement

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Speaker 1: six months after the murder. He said that he did

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Speaker 1: do it, but she didn't believe him.

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Speaker 9: And what did you say, you're his best friend. Did

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Speaker 9: you say you're just talking crazy, drunk, nonsense or much.

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Speaker 5: I just looked at him, I said, Oh, okay, Joe, Well,

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Speaker 5: I'm truly, honestly believe he didn't do it. Yeah, said

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Speaker 5: that when I was on the stand that I really

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Speaker 5: don't think he didn't do it. Joe was kindhearted, He's

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Speaker 5: very sensitive. He would never do anything to hurt anybody.

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Speaker 5: And especially like when we were going through the whole

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Speaker 5: process and they said the kids through in the home

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Speaker 5: id right then and there, Joe was not part of them.

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Speaker 2: You're not the first person that's told us that that

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Speaker 2: Joe would never even if he could imagine him doing it,

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't do it with kids.

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Speaker 5: In the house.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you're wondering, like I was, if she might

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Speaker 1: be sticking to a lie to avoid perjury charges, did.

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Speaker 2: You ever feel feel like they were being really aggressive

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Speaker 2: to make you say something.

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Speaker 1: No, But apparently she did fear that she could be

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Speaker 1: dragged into this. Apparently the cops let her know that

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Speaker 1: she could face a prison sentence.

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Speaker 5: I was in Florida actually the day it happened, and

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Speaker 5: that's really what saved my ass because I had a

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Speaker 5: credit card receipt from Florida where I was.

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Speaker 1: It seemed Sam worried that she could have potentially been

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Speaker 1: framed as a co conspirator if she'd been in town.

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Speaker 1: Her lawyer wasn't going to run the risk of Sam

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Speaker 1: getting on the stand under oath a trial. Who knew

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Speaker 1: what kinds of tricks they'd pull.

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Speaker 5: My lawyer shipped me off Indiana for six months until

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Speaker 5: the whole thing was over.

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Speaker 3: My lawyer went to courtor.

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Speaker 5: My lawyer like, I sat him down, and why didn't

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Speaker 5: you get a lawyer? Because I was gonna I got

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Speaker 5: five to fifteen years press against me for No, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: Saying that that's why the cops couldn't find her to

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Speaker 1: testify at trial. During the interview with police, Sam had

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Speaker 1: had an attorney present that made it incredibly unlikely for

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Speaker 1: the police to pressure and course her. So she seemingly

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Speaker 1: freely admitted that Joe did confess to her. But still

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Speaker 1: I don't believe it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: So I'm not going to go and say something that

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Speaker 5: I don't really believe and even cause more trouble.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as getting you in the room with

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Speaker 2: the detectives, when you're first talking to them, they did

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Speaker 2: they sort of ask you open ended questions of what

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Speaker 2: did you know? Or did they sort of start almost

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Speaker 2: immediately telling you what they believed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they said, well, we.

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Speaker 5: Arrested Joe on something, and then he started telling us

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Speaker 5: this story and your name came up and this is

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Speaker 5: what he said you knew?

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Speaker 3: And I said okay, and he says, what was it, Drue?

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Speaker 3: And I says, well, that's what Joe told you, okay. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And that's pretty much how the interview went.

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Speaker 2: And so they was it was true that he had

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Speaker 2: told you that in the basement. It's just a matter

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Speaker 2: of you didn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: But what we do know is what I said before.

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Speaker 1: Sam was street smart. Sam wouldn't give the police any

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Speaker 1: more than what they gave her.

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Speaker 3: And they're like, well, what do you know?

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Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, what did Joe tell you?

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Dislike with you guys, or

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Speaker 3: what did Joe.

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Speaker 1: Sam may not have believed Joe, but she kept that

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Speaker 1: to herself.

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Speaker 5: Back to them, Hey, I wasn't going to put my

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00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 5: own opinion in there.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't true.

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Speaker 1: At this point, we all started to think maybe there

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00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 1: was truth to Joe being involved. His own best friend

287
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 1: who loves him and wants to protect him at all costs,

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00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: says he told her he killed Von. So if Joe

289
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,360
Speaker 1: said this, what are the odds that Rose and Chris,

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00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 1: people who live in different towns and are independent from Sam,

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00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 1: would have a similar story of Joe telling them he

292
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 1: was going to kill a girl and then a girl

293
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Speaker 1: winds up dead.

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Speaker 2: And so you're looking at that and think, well, that

295
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 2: doesn't look very fucking good for Joe, you know. So

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Speaker 2: that was what was important for us to talk to

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00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 2: you and see what the real circumstances were behind your

298
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,600
Speaker 2: statement and grand jury testimony and all that stuff. And

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Speaker 2: this really helps.

300
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Speaker 1: But remember Sam said she wouldn't tell the police more

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00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 1: than what they were asking her to verify. So was

302
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: there more to what Joe said to her? There was?

303
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 1: Sam dropped one final bombshell.

304
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 3: I know David wanted him to, okay.

305
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 5: And I was under the impression that Dave was.

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00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,199
Speaker 2: Going to pay him to Did he tell you that

307
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:07,920
Speaker 2: David wanted him to do that.

308
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 5: Yeah he did.

309
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 2: Did he tell you that multiple times?

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Speaker 5: Okay, okay before it happened, or yeah, like months before.

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Speaker 1: This was where our investigation took a turn we never expected. Allegedly,

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00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 1: Joe was talking about murdering Evon for months, and for

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00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 1: months he'd been telling Sam that David was behind it.

314
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Speaker 1: We were more confused than ever. Maybe I was resisting

315
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 1: what was in front of me, but I was determined

316
00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,239
Speaker 1: to be skeptical, skeptical of the official story, skeptical of

317
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,640
Speaker 1: the cops. I've reported on too much shady police work

318
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,879
Speaker 1: to ever take their story at face value. But Sam

319
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,520
Speaker 1: was credible. Sam told us he loves Joe and doesn't

320
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 1: believe he killed Yvonne, but regardless, she stands by him,

321
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: telling her he did it, and that David Thorne wanted

322
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 1: him to, and that Joe had been telling her that

323
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Speaker 1: for months. We had never heard this before. This was

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00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 1: never in any of her statements to the police or

325
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,440
Speaker 1: grand jury. We considered that she was making it up,

326
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 1: but for what purpose. Sam did realize that Joe's case

327
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,720
Speaker 1: and David's case were tied.

328
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Speaker 3: But to be able to get Joe out, I guess

329
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 3: you got to get David.

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Speaker 1: Out too, So why would she implicate David if she

331
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Speaker 1: thinks helping Joe requires David getting out? Well, if she

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00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 1: was telling us the truth of what she knew, and

333
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: Sam did tell us that she wasn't going to bring

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00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 1: up any more to the police than what they asked

335
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Speaker 1: her about.

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Speaker 3: True.

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Speaker 9: How confident are you that Joe had made mention that

338
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 9: his friend David wanted his wife killed before it happened.

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00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 1: Oh?

340
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually it was David had.

341
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 2: Some part in, so they Joe had been telling you

342
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 2: for some time that David wanted him to do this, Okay,

343
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,160
Speaker 2: And did you think that at any point in time

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Speaker 2: he was actually considering doing it?

345
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 6: Yeah?

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00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 1: Okay.

347
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Speaker 9: Do you believe that that David masterminded it, no matter

348
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 9: Joe or I do.

349
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 3: That's my gut feeling.

350
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 5: He wanted it, and I think he would just find

351
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 5: the first person that would say has to do.

352
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 1: It, and Joe was the sucker always looked.

353
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, whenever David and Paul, I remember driving him over

354
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Speaker 5: to David's house a couple of times, especially when him

355
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 5: and when David and his wife forgett divorced.

356
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the whole started.

357
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 3: You want to They had like five or six kids.

358
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Speaker 1: It's interesting Sam mentioned these details. Of course, we know

359
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: that Yvonne and David were not married and all kids

360
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 1: were not David's. But Sam didn't. Sam didn't care one

361
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: way or another. None of this meant anything to her

362
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,160
Speaker 1: and to the guys. This just shows how little Sam

363
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,439
Speaker 1: was involved or has paid attention to the case. She

364
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: told them she has other shit going on and doesn't

365
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 1: read the news or watch TV. So the fact that

366
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 1: she remembers these details helped convince John and Danny that

367
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 1: she's telling the truth about what she remembers.

368
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,679
Speaker 3: Did you even know David now?

369
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 9: And he's just telling me, Sam, I've got this buddy

370
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,639
Speaker 9: of mine that I looked up to that wants me

371
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 9: to kill his wife.

372
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I looked at him. I said, Joe, you

373
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 3: would never do that.

374
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 5: He goes, no, I wouldn't.

375
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Speaker 3: I said, Okay, if anything, he would.

376
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: Never lie to me because he has Yeah, but did he?

377
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 1: We were baffled. Of course, we consider the possibility David

378
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 1: was involved, but we had never come across any evidence

379
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 1: other than the weak alleged evidence that was presented at

380
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: trial to indicate that until now, and just in time,

381
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 1: we finally got approval to talk to Joe Wilkes. On

382
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: the way to the prison. We talked about how the

383
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: visit was going to go. John and Danny were not

384
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: allowed to bring anything into the prison, no recorder, no notepad,

385
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: They cannot bring anything in, so everything had to be

386
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: in their heads and relate back to me immediately while

387
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: it was fresh.

388
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 2: We have sort of the high points of everything that

389
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: I want to make sure. We mentioned understanding that conversation

390
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: is going to go in whatever direction it goes in,

391
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: but there's some things that definite I want to talk about,

392
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 2: so you know, my attention is to again sort of

393
00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: try to get the slate clean.

394
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: Remember there have been multiple versions of Joe's story. The

395
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: original story that David hired him. Then he told a

396
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 1: story where David was not involved, but he went over

397
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: to proposition Yvonne for sex and she was already dead.

398
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: He also said he went there to invite her to

399
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: his own party he was having at the hotel at

400
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: the made.

401
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 2: Let's start, doesn't matter what he said in the past,

402
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: just tell us, you know what what was going on

403
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 2: around that time, what was going around on around that day.

404
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 2: Let him get blocked to the story and then go

405
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 2: from there. He's given us enough bullets to tear apart

406
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 2: whatever it is.

407
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 6: Yeah.

408
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, so we just we almost colombo him and play confused,

409
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 8: just to let it.

410
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 9: And then here's my thought with.

411
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 8: Him, He's not stupid. If he sees us struggling to

412
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 8: process information he gives us, we just shut up, yep,

413
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 8: and let him try and substantiate what he's just said,

414
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 8: just quizzically, you know, ex facially express to him that

415
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 8: we're not understanding him, to see if he corrects it.

416
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 8: But it's effective because people generally, especially engaged in a

417
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 8: great conversation, want to help understand what they're trying. You know,

418
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 8: there's the receiver and the communicator, and you want the communicator.

419
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 3: To feel like, oh I didn't get that outright?

420
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 8: You let him bring you more, Yeah, because the more

421
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 8: he gives us, the more we can angle our response.

422
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 6: Yeah.

423
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 2: So one thing that I do want to, you know,

424
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: talk about at some point is his relationship with Amy,

425
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: and you know, see if we can get him to

426
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 2: the point where we think one way or the other

427
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 2: as far as could they have had conversations with each other.

428
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to David, this was something we wondered after talking

429
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: with Chris. Could Joe have done something without David's knowledge.

430
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: There's a few things that I want to ask him

431
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: about regarding Sam. Okay, tell us about your interactions with Sam,

432
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 2: you know, during that time as it relates to this case.

433
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: Then if he leaves out that he told her that

434
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: in the basement, then you know, we'll hit him. This

435
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,719
Speaker 2: is your ally that we talked to. Is a great conversation,

436
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: you know, let him know that she is an ally.

437
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: But she did say some things that are troubling.

438
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 8: Did you see two people at the food court in

439
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 8: the mall?

440
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah?

441
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: I still think it's very possible that was made up

442
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: and police told him to say you saw that.

443
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 3: Well, he was not in his first segment that who

444
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: else did you tell about this? Yes? Sam, it's possible.

445
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: But then, you know, what did you know about Chris?

446
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 3: What happened?

447
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 2: You know?

448
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 3: What was he pretty much ranking this?

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00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: Yeah?

450
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: And the knife. There is record of a knife being

451
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: purchased on March thirty first, nineteen ninety nine. The Kmart

452
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: loss Prevention people testified at trial that this was the

453
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: only trade folding pocket knife of that kind not only

454
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: bought on that day, but from January nineteen ninety nine

455
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: to July nineteen ninety nine. But was the knife in

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00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: the drain and the knife purchased at kmart that day

457
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 1: Joe's knife the one prosecutor said he used to kill Yvon?

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00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 8: Yeah?

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00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, What were the what were the exact circumstances of

460
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: getting to that nine in the storm drain?

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00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 6: You know?

462
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: It was well, the cops led me there, Okay, cops

463
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: led you there. What was the conversation leading up to

464
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: getting there? You know? And you know we'll go down

465
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 2: this road for sure of Listen, are you covering for David?

466
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 8: That looks like a president up there?

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00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Coming up on death and deceit in Alliance? We are

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00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: in the detect a Bureau at the Alliance Department.

469
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 8: If we're investigating the hon the side of vonn Lee,

470
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 8: can you tell us your part in this? I asked

471
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 8: him what it was and he said to kill somebody.

472
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: And at that.

473
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 7: Point I really didn't care about why he forded.

474
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: Up then, So why did David want this done? So

475
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: David could that is one way he wouldn't have to

476
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 2: pay so much money?

477
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: Did David?

478
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: You'll pay you to do something for me?

479
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: He asked me, if I would do it? That are

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00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: you sorry?

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00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: Fortunated death and deceit In Alliance is produced and reported

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00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: by me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt.

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00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is

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00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith.

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00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.