WEBVTT - Tyler Rae 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.600 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today, 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.200 I'm joined by golf course architect Tyler Ray. Tyler is 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:09.880 one of the bright young architects in the golf industry. 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:12.959 He has worked for Keith Fosser, Bill Cooorr and Ben 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.720 Crenshaw and most recently Ron Pritchard. I joined Tyler to 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.560 check out his work at Beverly Country Club in Chicago. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.160 Without further ado, here's Tyler Ray. I miss the green, 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.880 for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:29.360 in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.400 And when I find my ball in a brid egg 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.560 Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Fridagg frigg Frida Egg 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:36.280 bride egg. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:38.519 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the golf course. 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:06.520 How many Donald Ross courses have you seen? 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.160 I have about thirty thirty two left to see, So 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:17.360 there's you know existing. If there's three hundred and forty 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:21.480 two I think left existing, you know, about forty five 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.039 of those have been altered, you know, beyond recognition. So 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:29.120 there's two hundred and ninety seven left that are in 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.440 the flesh. Yeah, I probably have thirty or so left. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.880 How many of the say two hundred and ninety or 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.680 that are in the flesh, are close to their original 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:43.880 or you know, is there a percentage that you would 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.280 say are close to what they originally were? 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:54.440 There are probably, gosh, probably sixty percent that are pretty 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.960 solid that are you know, that haven't had all the 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:02.880 greens blown up and routings altered. So we're saying probably 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.520 maybe one hundred and eighty to two hundred, you know, 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.120 are really good and solid still out there. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.720 Ross is an architect that now I feel like almost 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.320 every major city has like a public Donald Ross course. 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:22.200 And whenever I somebody asked me for recommendations and different cities, 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.680 I always say, I always look up like Ross courses 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.760 in the area because it's usually a pretty sure bet 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.880 that it's going to be decent, and you know, amazingly, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.320 it's always it always seems like those courses are also 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.920 the most affordable ones in different cities. What are some 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.480 of your favorite public Ross courses that you've seen. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.200 Oh, that's a good one. Triggs Memorial is really good 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.919 in Providence. Wilmington Golf Club down in Wilmington, North Carolina. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:54.280 All the bones there are really good. Obviously, Newton up 0:02:54.320 --> 0:03:02.800 in Boston, and Commonwealth. Let's see rabis Low here in Chicago, 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.280 I mean almost every town has something great, you know, 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.720 something really good h Ross. Even if you go in Detroit, 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.400 you know, rack them, oh you know, the highway kind 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.600 of ruin, rack them a little bit, but rack them 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.839 has so many good bones. And then and then gosh, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.800 you know, even in North Carolina there's so many great obviously, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.880 you know, all the ones around Pinehurst, they're all you know, 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.040 Southern Pines is so underrated. You know, there's so many 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.920 good part fours at Southern Pines. And then obviously a 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.160 bunch in Florida that don't get any love. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.120 I'm going to Pinehurst soon and that's a definite stop 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.760 is going to be at Southern Pines. That's I hear. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.440 Great Bones could be something really special. 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.160 Yeah that uh, I've been politicking, you know for that. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.520 And I know Kyle Franz is the man down there 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.880 right now, and he's a good buddy. I'm but man 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.160 Southern Pines. You know, when I go play golf trips 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.960 with buddies and we go down Pinehurst, it's like, okay, 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:12.080 number two Dormy, you know, Pine Needles, Midpines. But hey, 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.960 boys like come with me. I'm going to show you 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.880 something in the afternoon that'll you know, rock your socks 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.920 off for forty dollars and we can drink some beers 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.240 and have fun and the architecture will really wow you. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.160 And then at the end of the trip they're always like, man, 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.080 I think I had the most fun at Southern Pines 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.880 because it didn't beat me up. The greens are really 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:37.000 really interesting, the routings on you know, the routing is unparalleled, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.760 and the land it really gets hilly back there, you 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.520 know on six, seven, eight, nine, ten, I mean it's 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:44.599 hilly for Pinehurst. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.320 So it's funny that Zach Blair and I went on 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:53.479 that that long San Francisco trip and the one that 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.920 I mean San Francisco golf world class, cal club, world class, 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.760 you know, Posa Tiempo, world class off course. But the 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.920 one that sticks with us is like, just like, the 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:05.799 one we talk about the most is Northwood. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.479 Yeah, Northwood is really special. In twenty twelve, I took 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.359 two months off and I did a California you know, 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.479 just deep dive and I visited something like sixty seven 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:21.599 clubs in two months, and Northwood up there, literally no 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:23.840 one ever spoke about it, and the only reason I 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.600 knew about it was because it was had Mackenzie's name attached. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.760 And I literally, I mean I get chills right now. 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:31.480 The hair are standing up on the back of my neck. 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.279 How good Northwood is. And you know, and then there's 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.080 like Etna springs up there, which is great. 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:37.760 What it closed though. 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.120 I know it or is closing or has closed. But 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.600 that was really cool with Doak and George Waters and 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.840 Kyle Franz did up there. That was really inspiring. And 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.320 oh but yeah Northwood, who. 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.640 With those bunkers just sitting there. I mean, like, how 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.920 much would it cost to put those bunkers back since 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.320 they're just kind of grassed over? Like I always I 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.520 always have wondered about that, like what, you know, being 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.760 an architect, what do you think like just a general 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.760 cost for putting that stuff back and time and materials 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:09.320 so would be. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.320 Yeah, you know, Andy, that's a great question. You know, 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.360 there's so many courses like this. You know down here 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.200 south of Chicago, Kankakey Elks, you know the same thing. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:24.120 There are almost trees, you know, sitting in existing bunkers 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.080 and saying same with out there at Northwood and maybe Wakanda. 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.080 You know in Iowa, you walk around Wakanda and you're like, 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.080 oh my gosh, this Langford and Moreau. I mean, the 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.880 bunkers are sitting out there in the woods and it's 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.719 just it's unbelievable, you know, all this stuff is sitting 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.599 out there. Same with Northwood. You know those sequoias though, 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.800 are a little larger there. But cost I guess really 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:49.960 you would just be probably taking out six to eight 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.080 inches of top soil on the bottom of those bunkers, 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.839 putting drainage in, and then putting five inches of compacted 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.760 sandback sand is expensive depending on you know, what kind 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.120 of scene and you're getting, but really, you know, the 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.360 shaping would be very minimal, you know, just a little 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.960 bit of regrassing, you know, drainage and sand. 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:13.920 So sixty seven clubs and courses in two months, what 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.800 was your outside of Northwood? Your your best find in 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.640 California that might not get talked about enough. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.400 Pacific Grove is really really special. You know. Monterey sure 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.920 gets a lot of love now, but maybe in twenty 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.440 twelve when I was out there, I think a lot 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.800 of guys didn't understand how great Mike strands you know, 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.080 vision artistry was so when I was visiting the shore, 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.480 I was really blown away by his artistry. Yes, San 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:51.880 Francisco golf is really really good, so good. Gosh, col Club, though, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.360 I was really just blown away. You know. Everybody's you know, 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.480 talked about Kyle Club, but you know, like that seventh hole, 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.520 I think it is the boomerang part four that they add, 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.600 you know, that still felt really mackenzie esque. And the 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.880 work by George Waters and Kyle on those bunkers, you know, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.480 for Kyle was really cool. But I think Cal Club 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.880 blew me away. You know, it was so good and 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.560 so you know, it was so close to the other ones. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.440 I think all the little details at Cal Club let's 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.800 make it so good, and just the way it plays, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.000 also getting the fescue in there and getting it playing 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.560 bounty and firm and fast, which is so rare for 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:28.160 that area. 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.760 Yeah, super firm, super firm, super fast. You know the land, 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:36.120 the land has that charm back. You know, the ground 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:36.600 is alive. 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.199 Bobby Jones played the am out in California and that's 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.040 where he started ran into Mackenzie. And had it not 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.040 been for that, it was believed that Ross was going 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.600 to be the guy that did Augusta National. Correct. 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.840 Yes, he and Ross were buddies, you know, from his 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.960 time at east Lake and all that. Ross was at 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.920 east Lake in nineteen thirteen and Bobby Jones grew up 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.680 on the course, so really all he knew was east Lake. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:07.800 And then Ross did in nineteen twenty six or seven 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.120 he built Highlands Golf Club, which was Bobby Jones' is 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.840 really like Mountain Golf Course and so, which still exists 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.960 pretty much in its exact state. And so I think 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.280 Ross had it. You know, Ross probably had you know, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.760 Augusta was what nineteen thirty nineteen thirty one, and yeah, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.240 he fell in love with mackenzie out in Cyprus Point 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:30.520 and all that. 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.280 What do you think a Ross designed how would it 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.679 differ from the Mackenzie designed? I guess the National. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.600 You know, they probably would have had some of the 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:43.960 same routing. You know, the routing is so good at Augusta, 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.840 the way he utilized those creeks and the you know, 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.280 the ski slope on ten going down there and eleven 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:54.960 and twelve, how twelve so underrated, and so the routing 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:59.520 probably would have been pretty similar. But you know McKenzie's 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.920 flair for the extravagant and you know the buried elephants 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.600 at Augusta which have been softened over the years, which 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.480 is sad to see. But you know, I mean Mackenzie, 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.000 those old Boomerang greens, like like, gosh, what is it? 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.720 It was? I think nine, you know, nine was pretty 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.120 much almost a boomerang green which been which has been 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.760 totally changed. But you go at the Gusta like number one. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.120 Number one's green might be the best green out there, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.120 you know, and it's like beat you in the face 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.200 when you when you show up, you know, you hit 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:28.440 it out there, and then you get to one and 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.000 you're like, holy smokes, what am I in for? And 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:35.560 so that hell and yeah, that Plateau green. But no, 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.160 I think, uh, I think Ross would have really done 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.920 well there. But it's pretty cool, you know Mackenzie. He 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.800 was on such a run there. I mean, if you 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:45.200 look at the top five in the world and you 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.720 have you know, if you had you know, I've heard 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.360 Doolks say in the past when I was at Royal 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.959 Melbourne two years ago, I think that composite course might 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.000 be the best course in the world. You know, pv 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.560 Okay Pine Valley. But the composite course at Royal Melbourne 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.199 is so good when you take a couple of those 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.199 holes from the East and put them in with the 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.559 west down there, and then he has obviously at Cyper's point, 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.920 which is you know, it's unbelievable. You know, the inland 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:13.840 holes are so good there and that's what makes it 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:14.280 so good. 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.880 Now I got to play the Jockey Club and Argentina 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.280 years ago. Like I went to Argentina with my now 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.960 wife and we were visiting her friend and it just 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.600 happened her friend was dating a member of the Jockey 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.520 Club and he's like, do you want to play him? Like, yeah, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.840 I want to, yeah, because like I was, I was 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.199 thinking about it. I was like, I got to try 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:35.840 and find a way onto this place and it just 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.760 turned out it worked out. But like you think about Mackenzie, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:46.320 and he designed arguably the greatest course on almost you 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:50.960 could some of his courses in the UK four different continents. 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:53.360 You know, he had a course that was in the 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.840 conversation for the greatest golf course and on four continents, 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:01.400 which is it's mind boggling, Yeah, and probably three for sure, exactly. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.840 So it's he's something that everybody kind of always says 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.440 that he's the best, but it's it's tough to imagine, 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.360 especially given the time. And but he also had great associates. 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.360 It goes to show, Yeah, Mick Morecambe down and you know, 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:21.240 down in Australia, he was really his right hand man. 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.560 When when Mackenzie went down in Australia, you know, he 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.800 obviously got together with those superintendents down there, Alex Russell 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.440 and and Mick Morcomb, and he taught Mick everything, you know, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.840 and just a whirl win I think sixty days or so. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.000 And and Tom Doak would know better than I would 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.040 because he's consulting down there. But yeah, and then he 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.000 kind of showed him his style down there and built 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.960 the bunkers and this and that. Hey, this one looking 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.280 for and then those guys ran with it and they 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.160 really I mean, gosh, you go to you know, like 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.200 Royal Adelaide and stuff like that. That place is divine. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:53.520 Kingston Heath, I mean that. 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.559 Stuff first out in Karen. 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.440 Yeah, oh that's really cool too. And nobody really makes 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.560 that trek because it's eight hours from Melbourne, you know, 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:07.720 and it's a brutal drive. But that's really really underrated 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:09.080 nobody really sees that though. 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:15.880 With Ross, what would you consider as his most underappreciated skill. 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.960 Probably his most underrated skill. You know, everybody talks about 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.960 his routings, and his routings are just so fundamentally strong, 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.720 you know, his routings are just unbelievable. Is his skill 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.520 probably was showing up, you know. And I've read so 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.560 many of his site notes from Barton Hills and all 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.880 over in America where he literally would would write to 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.360 his daughter Lilian. Then it would be October first, they say, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.240 dearest Lillian, you know your birthday's October twenty sixth. I 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.560 will be back, you know, in Pinehurst for your birthday. Okay, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.959 October first, I'm going to take the train from Pinehurst 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.559 to d C. And then I'm in DC for three 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.959 days and I'm at Washington Golf and this and that, 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.480 then Congressional and then I'm going in Chevy Chase. And 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.040 then October second, Lillian, I'll be in Philadelphia and I'll 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.160 be at loulu and Ironomank and then I'm going up 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.240 to New York. And he would literally write in this 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.800 letter to her his travel you know, for the month 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.240 of October, and say in nineteen twenty seven, and it 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:20.440 would literally stop you know, d C Philly, New York, 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.040 and then he'd go up to Boston and they'd take 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.360 the train to the Rochester and visit Aronda Couiter Monroe, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.320 and then he'd go to Detroit and then over to 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.160 Chicago and then in Minneapolis, and so then he'd come 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.480 back and so in you know, twenty seven days, he'd 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.720 be back to Pinehurst and he'd visit forty six golf courses. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.400 You know, like in one day in Detroit, he was 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.920 at Western Golf in the morning, and then he's he 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:46.680 was on his way to Chicago and stopped in at 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.280 Barton Hills because the train went right by Barton Hills 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:51.880 and he just showed up at two pm and went 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.360 around the golf course. And luckily the secretary took notes 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.240 from that day. It was like October, you know, twentieth, 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.920 nineteen twenty five, and the have his site notes and 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.680 it's like Donald Ross showed up and went around and 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.480 wanted the four bunkers deeper, and you know, he was 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.200 really happy with this and this, but he wanted to 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.560 change one of the greens and then change the t's here, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.840 and it was just like so interesting to hear while 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.080 you know, he just popped in on his way to Chicago. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.520 But long winded, you know, sorry to go on a 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.360 long diatribe. To get back to your question. What was 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.400 maybe his most underrated skill was how did he keep 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.280 all these golf courses in his brain and keep them 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.240 all you know, I don't know alphabetized them or what, 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.040 but how do you okay, how do you know like 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.520 Barton Hill's this green is supposed to be over here 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.840 and this and that when you just show up and 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.400 then you're on your way to Chicago and you've just 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.560 visited forty two golf courses in a month, and you've 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.640 gave directions to each one about what they should do 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.040 with this, and you know, and he was so good 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.120 with agronomy and grass types and soils, and he worked 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.320 in so many different you know, like Northland up in 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.320 Duluth as literally the worst red clay I've ever seen. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.840 And then conversely, you go out to Portland, Maine and 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.640 it's beautiful sand and and you go down the Pinehurst 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.640 and it's totally different as well. And so he had 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:15.840 to be so agronically, you know, agronomically sound, giving advice 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.440 to all these different clubs in different climates and know 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.280 all the seasons, and you should plant here at Monroe, 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.320 he gave directions that you should plant by August first, 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.280 so these greens are grown in by next spring and 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.200 you can open up the golf course. And it's like, 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.600 it's just that's just I think. You know his knowledge, 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.920 his I you know, his itinerary, and the way he 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.760 travel was it's just mind boggling. Now where we fly 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.480 from the you know, club, the club, and I might 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.880 visit fifteen clubs in a month or twenty clubs in 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.320 a month. But I get home and I'm like, Okay, 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.040 what did I tell these guys? Okay this okay, boom boom. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.760 It's really tough. And he was doing that on a 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:56.440 much larger scale. 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.920 He had to have a photographic memory and and you 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:05.920 look past you know the architecture and the agronomy and knowledge. 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.919 But he also was like a master club maker. He 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.399 was a he had high finishes in the US opened, 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.639 the British Open, or the Open Championship. It's uh and 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.280 it's crazy to think, like this guy is probably the 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.919 most well rounded, most versed man ever in the history 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:25.359 of golf. 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.080 Yeah, and then Andy to even top that off. He 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.080 was affluent and could mix, you know, with high society 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.520 down in Pinehurst and shake hands and and speak eloquently, 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.560 you know. And he only had a eighth grade education 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.680 and he was you know, his father he was a 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.240 carpenter and everything in Dornick. And you know where did 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.000 he get you know, he must have been a genius. 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:48.120 And so when Ron Pritchert and I have these discussions, 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.400 we're like, this guy had to be his IQ had 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.320 to be through the roof. But to have all these 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.280 all these assets, you know, and capabilities of being able 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.760 to work with the foreman out out in the you know, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.119 out in the field and explain what he wanted and 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.919 get what he wanted built, and then go in and 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.840 speak with the gentleman, you know. Like one of his 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.880 best friends was mister Ford. You know, he got all 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.120 that work in Detroit because mister Ford would come down 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.960 to Pinehurst and he was like, oh, you're the man 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.359 down a Pinehurst, you know, Donald, we need you. We 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.320 need golf courses in Detroit. Same with the White Bear 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.520 yacht family up in Minnesota. That's how he got all 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.280 his Minnesota work. That was his connection. And so in 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.159 nineteen you know, early nineteen twelve, thirteen, fourteen fifteen, he 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.600 was going up there every summer to visit the family 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.560 from the White Bear Yacht Club. And that's how he 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.840 got Cedar Rapids in nineteen fifteen, and that's how he 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.280 went to Minnicotta, and then he got Woodhill and then 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:48.040 he got Northland and interlocking, and so his connections were, 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.679 you know, unbelievable. And so this gentleman was you know, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.000 just basic education, you know, and he comes over, he 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.360 emigrates in eighteen ninety nine, and then somehow his brand, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.159 you know, he built himself from zero. I mean I 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.119 remember reading you know, he hardly had enough money to 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.760 get out to Oakley Golf Club when he first arrived, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.159 and you know, off the ship he basically walked the 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.880 seven miles because he couldn't take the train car because 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.239 he didn't have enough money, you know. And then he 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.600 built an empire where he at one point had two 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.119 thousand guys employed, you know, in nineteen twenty eight before 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.640 the stock market crash. And I mean I just don't 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:32.040 know how he had the capacity, you know, to to 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:32.920 keep everything wrong. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.359 Yeah, I can't imagine he slept that much. 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.480 No, No, but you know the only thing that I 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.640 want to do. Want to say though, is when you're 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.480 taking train, you know, when you're taking train travel, it's 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.879 a lot different because what would happen is, you know, 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.520 when he when his notes from clubs is you know, 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.600 somebody would pick him up at the train stop and 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:54.560 then they would take him directly to the golf course. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.280 And so he never really drove, and so that time 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.600 he had all this time to you know, okay, what's 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.399 your land, like, what's this? Okay, this is where we're going, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.239 and then he would have dinner and everything like that, 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.280 and he'd have his site notes from the day. Then 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.640 he'd get on the train and he'd have an hour two, three, 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.480 four five where he could write down all his site 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.000 notes and do his whole by whole drawings he wanted 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:17.879 to do. The master plans. He'd send them down to 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.800 or send them up to Boston to Walter Irving Johnson, 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.800 who would delicately, you know, handcraft these beautiful master plans 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.400 and ink them on linen. But Ross would send his 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.359 whole by whole master plan or hole by whole you know, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.639 drawings with site notes and you know about the character 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:36.600 of the topography, this and that, but he had all 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.240 this time on the train to decipher that and knock 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.280 out all the work. You know, say he was at 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.360 Hinsdale and you know, then going up to oak Park 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.200 or Evanston, you know, that night he would just write 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.200 everything down about Hinsdale and then clear that off his book, 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.520 then go to oak Park, you know, and then knock 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.360 out oak Park for the day and knock out all 0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.960 those drawings that night. And I think that was really 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:01.680 really special. 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:07.280 That's with technology today. I think it almost makes it harder. 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.520 A lot of times, exactly all the emails and all 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.680 the calls, you know, Like we were walking around earlier 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.199 and I have nine missed calls and four emails and 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.320 it's nine forty five this morning. 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.760 You know, it's like a lot of times the emails 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.879 like they aren't like fast to get done. It takes 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.600 a long time to answer a lot of these questions. 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.960 It's not like, you know, it's like writing. Sometimes I 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.160 feel like if I spend an afternoon writing emails back, 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.520 it's like I've written like a whole article. It's like, 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.920 I mean, and then one technology I'm excited for is 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:40.840 a drivable car. 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.960 Yes, that'll be almost like we've just talked about where 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.800 ross was being driven around everywhere and sitting in a 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:48.760 you know, sitting in a train car. You know. 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:54.320 So, so what you've seen twenty five hundred golf courses 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.119 to date, you've seen all these ross courses. What ross 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.639 courses are you most excited to see that you haven't 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.440 seen yet? 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:07.919 Wow, that's that's a tough one. Really. The ones I 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.119 haven't seen are the tough ones. Just to get to, 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.159 like BAMF. You know, there's not much ross left at BAMF, 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:15.480 but I want to get up there anyway because he 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.639 was there. Gosh, what do I have? I have the 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.119 one in Missouri? Yeah, I have, like the one in 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:28.760 Kansas called Shawnee. I have Hillcrest, French Lick. I haven't 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.720 seen a bunch in Florida. You know. Florida is so 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.960 tough to get down to because it's like in the wintertime, 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:38.400 everyone is down there. And that's my you know, from 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.439 from Christmas until really February first or March first is 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.480 my kind of time to get away. Go to California, 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:50.320 go to Australia, New Zealand, go to Europe and see everything, 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:53.720 But it's really hard to get to Florida because everyone's 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.199 down there. And then the summer, I'm really busy, and 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.120 so it's one hundred degrees down there, and nobody wants 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.080 to be down there. So I literally have, out of 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.280 the thirty golf courses, you know, thirty more Ross I 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:05.520 have to see, you know, probably twenty or in Florida. 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.120 And then the other thing is, I'm not really excited 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:10.680 to see this stuff in Florida because it's so flat. 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:12.679 The land is devoid of so much character. 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.199 I think a lot of it's been killed too right 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.320 over time with you know, so many architects work down 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:19.920 in Florida. 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:22.719 Yeah, everything's you know, cyclical down there. It's like, oh, 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:24.280 it's ten years later, we need to blow up our 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:26.600 golf course. And so I've seen Seminole, and I've seen 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.760 Sarah Bay and Tim Aquana and some of the good ones. 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.119 But I just right now, I don't have the urge 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:35.840 to see the rest of that, you know, I want 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:38.159 to finish off the list. And I thought I was 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:39.880 going to be the first guy to see every Donald 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.320 Ross course, but obviously there's a guy from the Donald 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.880 Ross Society beat me out. For that, and I sent 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:46.920 him a nice email. I was like, man, how did 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.280 you get to all these? Like there's some that are brutal, 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:52.800 you know, there are some uh, you know way out 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:57.119 in Nova Scotia and Halifax and stuff, Brightwood and Liverpool, 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.159 you know, White Point which is way down you know, 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.159 Nova Scotia, And I've made the rise up there and 0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:05.600 tried to see him all but you know, and then 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.240 I have a couple, you know, up in northern New Hampshire. 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:11.800 After see, I've seen everyone in Maine, everyone in New York, 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:13.400 everything in Pennsylvania. 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.000 What are the what's your top five? 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:26.560 Who? You know? Top five probably would be I mean 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.600 it was that's really really hard. But Glenn's Falls is 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.080 really really good up in New York. I mean it's 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:34.720 it's really good. And then right down the road in Rome, 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.280 New York, there is to Usica, which is literally like 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:42.400 going back in time and seeing, you know, what Ross 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.920 would have done. He spent so much time there because 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:48.840 he had a girlfriend there, Florence Blackinton, and it was 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:51.440 after his first wife, Susie died in nineteen twenty one, 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:53.359 so he was really up there in like twenty two 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:55.919 twenty three. A lot and I think he had a 0:24:56.080 --> 0:25:00.119 really big hand there with the Walter p Hatch and 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:03.320 Walter be Hatch was so so so talented hit one 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:07.040 of his associates. Because Walter Behatch built Glenn's Falls, he 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:12.199 built to Uzuka. You know some other ones that you 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.800 know something that's so underrated that nobody knows about. It's 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:19.280 called Thendara. Thendara is up in the Adirondacks. It's like 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:23.160 literally almost like a rainer golf course. It's so bold. 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:25.280 You know, there's like a box car on the ninth green, 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:28.080 buried in the green where it's literally raised four feet 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:30.720 above the rest of the putting service. It's unbelievable. But 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:33.800 no wanna moist it. The greens that want to moist it. 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:37.320 Every single one has character. There's not one flat green 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:40.000 there and so wanta moist It is cool and small 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:42.720 and the properties, you know, it's pretty tame, but wana 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:46.040 moist of the greens are unparalleled for a ross golf course. 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:49.800 And then you have Essex County, I mean the Crown Jewel. 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:52.879 He spent so much time there. And then you know 0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:56.119 Ironomic is really special. You know that was JB McGovern's 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:58.679 home course. He was the green chair there and built it. 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:00.879 And that's why the greens have so much character at 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:03.840 ironom Ing, and Ironiming is like everything about is about 0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:07.080 scale Ironoming. You know, the property is big, the clubhouse 0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:10.480 is big. The bunkering was big on the master plan 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:14.119 that Ross drew, you know, and JB McGovern had a 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:16.880 proclivity to build small bunkers. And then that's what gil 0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:19.720 Han's just put back is all JB's one hundred and 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.880 eighty eight bunkers or whatever that he split. He would 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:26.960 split Ross's big bunkers in the small bunkers. But you 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:31.120 know in Oakland Hills, Oakland Hills is really great and 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.800 Northland the one, you know, you said five, I probably 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:36.719 listened six or seven because I can't stop. 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:39.480 That's fine, I've got I don't really like it. 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:41.879 We're just yeah, we're just gonna keep moving, you know. 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:46.440 But Northland might be one of the better routings and 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:49.640 we're I've been so fortunate to work with Ron Pritchard 0:26:49.680 --> 0:26:51.440 on that, you know, and I'm actually going back in 0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:53.560 a couple of weeks to you know, to restore some 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:58.320 more holes. But the it's sitting on Lake Superior, and 0:26:58.359 --> 0:27:00.880 it's on the side of this huge block, and Lake 0:27:00.920 --> 0:27:04.320 Superior literally looks like an ocean, and so it is 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:07.000 an Minnesota golf course, but it feels like you're in 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:11.280 California or on the Atlantic in Maine, and so literally 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:14.840 you have cliffhanger greens that look like the waters right 0:27:14.880 --> 0:27:18.000 behind the green. And so Northland is unbelievably special and 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:21.120 it's finally getting some recognition. And you know, that's one 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:23.240 golf course though. That Ron Pritchard, I feel like he's 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:25.439 seen every ross court, you know, golf course there is. 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:28.800 He has stated to the membership that he thinks that 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:31.600 could be top forty in America and I'm I was 0:27:31.640 --> 0:27:34.040 even like, whoa, Ron, you never give praise? You know? 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:37.879 That is that's pretty cool? And he's like, yeah, you know, 0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:40.080 so when we talk about routings, that might be one 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:42.280 of the best ross routings there is because it climbs 0:27:42.320 --> 0:27:45.840 this almost mountainlike terrain and then it loops all the 0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:47.960 way back down to eighteen at the clubhouse, and so 0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:50.360 nine is like the furthest part away. You know, it's 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:53.760 like a British Links kind of style routing. And so 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:55.800 he really went outside the box there and then it 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.680 took three years for that course to be built because 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:03.440 it's on such hard that red clay and the seasons 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.600 are so short, so they would build like six holes 0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:07.800 in nineteen twenty five, six holes in nineteen twenty six, 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:09.800 and then six oles in nineteen twenty seven, and so 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:12.320 it literally his master plan is from you know, I 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:15.960 think it says nineteen twenty five on it, and it opened, 0:28:16.400 --> 0:28:20.520 you know, like July fourth, nineteen twenty seven. You know, 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:23.040 so it's pretty cool that it took that long. And 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:26.000 then the last one I want to mention a homer 0:28:26.080 --> 0:28:29.520 for is mountain Ridge in New Jersey. Everyone talks about Plainfield, 0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:32.399 everyone talks about Ironomy, you know, everybody talks about all 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.720 these other clubs in the Northeast, but nobody knows mountain Ridge. 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:40.200 Mountain Ridge has greens that are even cooler than Plainfield 0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:43.160 and aronom and combined. Then it's a you know, it's 0:28:43.200 --> 0:28:46.520 a smaller club, three inner members. They don't like their 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:49.280 name getting out much. But if you go to mountain Ridge, 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:52.520 it got golf digest restoration of the year I think 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:56.240 in twenty eleven or twelve, and Ron I mean knocked 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:58.480 out of the ballpark. It's so cool. But you could 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:01.320 literally play golf at Somerset Hills with buddies and then 0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:03.360 go up the plain field and you're like, guys, I'm 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:05.360 going to take you to Mountain Ridge and then you 0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:07.560 go play mountain Ridge and they're all like, I've never heard, 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:10.520 I've never seen this. This place is epic. It's like, 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:13.520 you know, and I'm a softye for Somerset Hills. It's 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.800 maybe my favorite. If I were to join anywhere but Bitterman, 0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:20.040 where I play in Wilmington, Delawroyd I joined, you know, 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:22.880 if I ever had the privilege, you know, Somerset Hills 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:26.160 has a sweet spot in my heart. But mountain Ridge 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:30.200 is it's like this place that if you went and 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:33.640 played Andy, you'd be like, why does anybody talk about this? 0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:35.480 But it is in the Golf Week top one hundred, 0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:36.400 so they do get it. 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:41.080 So that's the best is finding those places that nobody 0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:44.600 talks about you. So you grew up caddying at Ironomic. 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:48.640 How much of you know walking around that golf course 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:50.800 every day as a kid, do you think played a 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:52.960 role in you becoming a golf course architect? 0:29:53.680 --> 0:29:56.040 Yeah, one hundred percent. I grew up playing Gap Golf 0:29:56.040 --> 0:30:00.720 Association Philadelphia with their junior tournaments in the late nineties 0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:05.960 and early two thousands, and we would go play Huntington Valley, Maryon, Lancaster, 0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:11.400 Aronomy Manufacturers, Lulu. I mean, the list goes on, you know, 0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:18.880 Lehigh Saukin Valley, even Scrinton Country called the Scrintons unbelievable Travis, right, yeah, 0:30:18.880 --> 0:30:21.080 and it's the greens are like the moon. You know. 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:24.000 Travis so underrated with his green building. But you know, 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:27.520 so I would play in Philly Cricket and Rolling Green 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:32.640 and Plymouth and all these flints, and so I saw, 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:35.560 you know, when I was eleven and twelve and thirteen, fourteen, 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.240 fifteen eighteen, I saw all these great golf courses. And 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.120 then I'd go back and play my municipal, you know, 0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:44.040 public golf course that I grew up on, and I'd say, well, 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:46.800 this is very different. You know this, Why are my 0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:49.320 greens so bland? And I go up to you know, 0:30:49.440 --> 0:30:51.680 Marion and I put it off the green and it's 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:53.960 not because they're super fast, which they were, but the 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:56.720 contours are incredible, you know, and there's you know, the 0:30:56.840 --> 0:30:59.320 routings are great. And so I had this great appreciation 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:02.760 from age, you know, seventeen of I was in a 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:07.360 special place. These are special golf courses, you know, catting 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.200 at Ironom and cattying at Wilmington Country Club, you know, 0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:12.760 seeing great golf. And so when I was at cattying 0:31:12.760 --> 0:31:15.840 at Ironomic, Ron Pritchard did the two thousand and two 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.160 restoration there and I think, you know, I think that 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:21.640 one golf digest restoration the year, I'm pretty sure. And 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:25.840 that literally spun the golf world, you know, in Philly 0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:28.000 in the Northeast a little bit. I mean, Ron Pritcher's 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:30.840 his phone run off the hook after that, and that 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:34.160 led to him getting all these other unbelievable courses, you know, 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:37.080 Charlotte Country Club and the and some of the bigger 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:42.840 name clubs that he and I have worked with. But yeah, 0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:46.200 I mean just caddying seeing how these guys were, you know, 0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:49.400 utilizing these slopes on the putt and greens, and it 0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:51.600 was just something different, you know. And Philly is such 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:53.480 a hotbed. I've been super blessed. 0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.800 Yeah, oh not last summer. The summer before I spent 0:31:58.000 --> 0:31:59.760 two weeks out there. I got I've played in the 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:02.520 mid so I got to do a big tour and 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:04.520 then my buddy got married out there, so I spent 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:08.680 another week, and just two weeks was like just scratching 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:12.280 the surface. It's I mean, there's so many, so many 0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:16.840 cool places to see, and it's it's definitely I think 0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:20.640 it's the clear number two city in America for golf. 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:23.200 Yeah, I know, I know number two is hard for 0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:25.920 me to say, but you know, New York Metro area 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:28.520 and Long Island, it's it's pretty hard to beat that. 0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:32.200 You know, it's a different conversation. If you split Long 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:33.160 Island off. 0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.480 And right, you delete Long Island out of seen Philly 0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:38.480 crushes you know, New York Metro I think, you know, 0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:40.640 New North New Jersey and New York I think it 0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:42.840 gets it. But then you get in Long Island and 0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:44.840 you got the Garden Cities and the Shinnies out there 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:48.920 and the Atlantic and Maidstone and it can't compete. 0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:52.520 You got like a place like Southampton, nobody mentioned, and 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:55.000 it's right next to National and it's so good, it's 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:55.440 so pure. 0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:59.040 Yeah, and so yeah, Long Island itself has thirty on 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:02.440 parallel golf and it's all sand, you know, the stuff 0:33:02.480 --> 0:33:04.680 on the sand, the ball, you know, the grounds alive 0:33:04.920 --> 0:33:06.960 that one, you know, the charm is back. 0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:12.280 Yeah, it's that's the getting the ball bouncy again, the ball, 0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:13.120 the bounce. 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:15.800 In the ground, the British Isles ground game took golf. 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:20.000 It's so you you've mentioned you worked for Ron Pritchard 0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:23.280 a great deal. You've also worked for Keith Foster and 0:33:23.320 --> 0:33:27.560 then Bill Kore and Ben Crenshaw. What what is if 0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:29.680 you were going to say one thing that you've taken 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:33.960 from each guy is what they are just so great at? 0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:34.840 What would it be? 0:33:36.680 --> 0:33:40.160 So Keith taught me scale. You know, when I was 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:45.719 with Keith, we were doing Colonial Baltimore, five farms. I 0:33:45.760 --> 0:33:48.360 was doing the plans for Philly cricket, plans for Moraine. 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:51.840 We were doing fresh Meadow up in Lake Success, New York, 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.120 up on Long Island, Orchard Lake. We were doing that. 0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:58.160 And so you would walk Orchard Lake with all these 0:33:58.200 --> 0:34:01.360 weeping willows and all these smallways, and He's say, Tyler, 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:05.000 you need to get back to Allison scale. You know, 0:34:05.080 --> 0:34:08.200 big bunkers, big greens, big fairways, you know, big roles 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:09.759 of the land. The roles of the land at Orchard 0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:13.160 Lak are really incredible, you know, expose the depography. And 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:16.799 so Keith taught me scale and you know, really how 0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:19.080 to run a business, how to be an architect, and 0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:21.960 how it's not just you're not just an artist. You know, 0:34:22.040 --> 0:34:23.920 you're not just some guy who shows up. You know. 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:28.040 Keith is so good at talking the membership, educating the membership, 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:32.320 you know, sitting down and working through the worst parts 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:35.239 of a restoration or renovation, you know, working with a 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:38.759 contractor in the field, beating the best product out of 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:41.759 that contractor. Every contractor wants to show up and they 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.160 want to be in and out, you know, in three 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:47.880 months and make a ton of money. And that's their goal. 0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:51.080 And your goal as the architect and for the club 0:34:51.120 --> 0:34:52.640 and the honor of the club and honor of the 0:34:52.680 --> 0:34:55.920 client is to make enduring work, which Keith you know, 0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:58.680 talks about a lot. You want that work to last 0:34:58.719 --> 0:35:00.920 for fifty to one hundred year like Ross and all 0:35:00.920 --> 0:35:02.719 these great old clubs. You don't want to be some 0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:05.080 architect that comes in in the eighties and the next thing, 0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:07.080 you know, in twelve years, it's being blown up because 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.360 that work didn't endure, you know, it wasn't great and lasting. 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:13.000 And so Keith taught me that, you know, to really 0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:16.600 take a critical eye. You know, Tyler, your eye. Your 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:19.920 eye is the most valuable asset you have. And you 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:22.239 can go around with that Green committee and the superintendent 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:26.120 and the contractor and you can work out every fine detail. 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:28.400 You know. Oh, you know this back corner of this 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:30.839 putting service is just off a little bit. Let's beat 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.160 that down half an inch. Hey, this bunker, you know, 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:35.040 I want this flashed a little more because I want 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:37.879 to see a ribin of sand from two hundred yards away. 0:35:38.040 --> 0:35:40.120 You know, I don't want that high lip in front 0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:42.800 of the bunker to block the viewport into that sayand 0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:45.520 so Keith really taught me about you know that A 0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:49.239 couple of things here obviously, Bill Corr. Same thing at 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.360 Dormy Club when I was living with Keith reb and 0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:56.440 working with jimbo Wright and Jeff Bradley, who are like 0:35:56.680 --> 0:35:59.600 the most talented guys in the industry. You know, I work, 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:02.080 I did all the bunker work with Jeff Bradley, and 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:03.600 so I'd be in the bunkers every day. And then 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:07.320 I did a lot of the peripheral work, and Keith 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:09.920 red was doing the fairway grading and ts and and 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:14.840 jimbo Wright did the bunkers and so I was mainly 0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:17.200 with Jeff Bradley every day, and Jeff Bradley taught me 0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:19.799 more about artistry and hey, like, look, it's got to 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:21.560 be in the right spot. The bunker's got to be 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:25.480 located properly, but it's got to be aesthetically pleasing fit 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:29.520 into the land naturally, almost like that mackenzie style, you know, bunkering. 0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:31.480 And so I was in there with a shovel every 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:35.040 day with Jeff and he's still one of these one 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:36.879 of my best buddies in the industry to this day. 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:40.120 And Bill cor would come out and say, Tyler, I 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:43.120 don't want to see any beach balls over there, you know, 0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:45.000 And and you know, with his funny you know, his 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.600 cool Texas twang a little bit, and and because I would, 0:36:48.640 --> 0:36:51.200 you know, I was such a novice in oh six 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:52.800 oh seven, I guess twelve years. 0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:55.880 Ago when one of the voicemails I'll never delete from 0:36:55.920 --> 0:36:59.560 my phone was Bill Corkan Andy, this is Bill Core. 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:03.480 It's just the way his voice is. 0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:06.400 It's great, but he's so you know, he's so mild 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:10.400 tempered and ben and but they taught me about look 0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:14.640 the periphery, everything matters, you know, dormy. We worked so 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.319 hard on the peripheral stuff. You know. It wasn't just 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:20.000 about the greens and the tea's and the bunkers that 0:37:20.080 --> 0:37:22.920 get so much attention. It was about every fine detail. 0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:25.880 And Bill wanted you know, he beat me down about 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:28.040 this bump, you know, and I thought I knocked it 0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:29.920 out of the ballpark, and he'd be like, make it 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:32.279 more weathered, make it more natural, you know. And then 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:35.839 Bill also taught me that, you know, I was an 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:38.400 abrasive twenty three year old working with them their first 0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:41.760 intern ever maybe you know, since you know, up until 0:37:42.160 --> 0:37:43.840 the new guys who have started working with them, but 0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:46.360 this was twelve years ago, and all the guys were like, 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:48.279 how did you How did you get on this job 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:50.960 with us? I wrote a letter to Bill core and 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:52.600 he actually called me. You know, I was like the 0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:55.520 first intern they had, you know, Jeff Bradley and those 0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:57.520 guys were like who are you and why are you here? 0:37:58.000 --> 0:37:59.799 And so they just kind of brought me under the wing. 0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:04.960 And but but Bill and Ben are so they're so 0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:13.440 just generous, kind, you know, mild tempered. I learned from 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:16.399 them that you have to you know, like Bill Corer 0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:19.200 would would always say your name, Well, Tyler, I think 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:21.640 we should do this. You know, hey, Andy, what do 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:23.600 you think about this? You know, he always used your 0:38:23.680 --> 0:38:26.440 name through your interjected your name to make you feel 0:38:26.480 --> 0:38:28.719 a part of the conversation. And that's one thing that's 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:30.960 maybe way overlooked, but it's just, you know, it's like 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:34.160 a life lesson really, you know, treat your client, treat 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:36.839 your friends, treat everybody the same, you know, interject them 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.279 into the conversation and you're you're all looking for the 0:38:39.280 --> 0:38:43.440 best product here. And so Bill Bill Cour's you know, unbelievable. 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:46.040 He's like the father of you know, architecture right now. 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:51.680 And then lastly, uh Ron Pritchard is the consummate artist. 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:55.160 And he taught me that look, you know, Ross never 0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:58.279 moved one tablespoon or teaspoon more than they had to. 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:01.240 The economy of golf course can instruction was so tough, 0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:04.719 you know, in the twenties, with teams of horses and scoops. 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:09.440 You know, everything was so so much more arduous than 0:39:09.480 --> 0:39:11.919 it is now. And he taught me that, look, look 0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:14.759 they didn't put all that fat around that green. That 0:39:14.800 --> 0:39:17.520 green was perched up and it fell right off from 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:20.359 the green putting surface. There wasn't all this blown up 0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:22.960 extra mass because they didn't have the you know, they 0:39:22.960 --> 0:39:26.360 didn't have the tools to move that dirt. And so Tyler, 0:39:26.440 --> 0:39:28.160 when you're moving this dirt, or when you're building a 0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:32.359 bunker or tee, think really really carefully about why you're 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:34.399 putting the dirt there, or why you're stripping the dirt 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:37.960 away from there. You know, every piece matter, every little morsel. 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:40.880 And so he really opened up my eyes to the 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:46.759 phill pads being perched and you know, dirt movement through 0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:51.080 a sight, you know, horizon lines. You know, He's constantly 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:54.399 still showing me, Tyler, look at Ross's notes. Here cut 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:57.960 the bunker one and a half feet for the floor, 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.400 and Phil three and a half feet for the shoulders. Aka, 0:40:01.560 --> 0:40:03.319 you're in the bunker, you're four and a half feet 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:05.839 below those shoulders. Then you add in sand, so you're 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:09.640 four feet below those shoulders. You know, so that's something 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:12.360 like the details and the Ross notes. You know that 0:40:12.520 --> 0:40:15.959 Ron just has beaten into my brain that so many 0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:19.239 guys don't, I don't think understand, you know, like it's 0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:20.920 supposed to be a hazard, it's supposed to be a 0:40:20.960 --> 0:40:22.879 half stroke penalty. You're not supposed to reach the green. 0:40:22.920 --> 0:40:25.360 Sometimes from one hundred and eighty yards inside his bunker. 0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:28.120 Ross had a four foot burm. You're four and a 0:40:28.120 --> 0:40:31.719 half foot burm, you know, face bunker. So if you 0:40:31.760 --> 0:40:34.200 can't reach the green, you shouldn't have hit it in 0:40:34.239 --> 0:40:38.640 this hazard. So Ron is such a you know, historian, 0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:42.719 and such a guy who's you know, he's almost in 0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:44.640 the wrong era, you know, he deserves to be around 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:47.720 in nineteen twenty and you're. 0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:52.120 One of the younger architects. What's the biggest challenge. 0:40:52.040 --> 0:40:55.200 Well, well, you know, exposure, you know one. I mean, 0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:57.719 I've never had the stomach for self promotion, you know, 0:40:57.800 --> 0:40:59.560 so I really have never had a website until this 0:40:59.560 --> 0:41:02.400 past year, or you know, Ron Pritcher's never had a website, 0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:04.920 and so exposure a lot, you know, a lot of 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:07.760 the Ross guys know us, a lot of Ross clubs 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:11.280 know us or me. But I've kind of just taken 0:41:11.320 --> 0:41:16.200 this slow you know, slow stare, you know, stairways, you know, 0:41:16.320 --> 0:41:18.680 slow climb, you know, working with Keith for a couple 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:21.200 of years back in the mid two thousands, working with 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:25.000 Coren Crenshaw, working with Ron Pritchard, I've tried to slowly 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:28.200 build my brand, you know, build who I am. You know, 0:41:28.280 --> 0:41:30.239 I'm like a design build guy, and I want to be, 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:33.239 you know, and build my company like Gill Hants where 0:41:33.239 --> 0:41:35.319 I can come in and I can shape that green 0:41:35.360 --> 0:41:37.279 for you. You know, I can shape the bunkers for you. 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:39.440 And you know, I've been shaping twelve years now. And 0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:42.000 I feel really really confident that I can come into 0:41:42.000 --> 0:41:45.040 any club and tell them this is exactly what's going 0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:47.399 to cost, and I'm going to you know, I can 0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:51.200 point to everything. You know, I can really feel really 0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:55.799 confident about, you know, my abilities and all that. And 0:41:57.120 --> 0:42:00.320 but to answer your question, I think, you know, I'll 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:04.400 continue to get more visibility and higher you know, bigger projects, 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:05.879 you know, the one like you know. The one thing 0:42:05.920 --> 0:42:08.759 that's tough right now is I've interviewed at Sciota and 0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:11.920 some big, big time clubs, and I've just come up 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:16.399 short because I'm thirty two, thirty three, Whereas somebody who's 0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:19.480 in their mid forties or fifties, you know, appeases to 0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:21.719 them a little bit more because that's what the committee, 0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:22.719 that's what their age is. 0:42:23.440 --> 0:42:27.720 And it's a fascinating thing to me, is how golf 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:30.120 course architects rarely retire. 0:42:30.280 --> 0:42:33.680 Right, right, you know we hit our stride from you know, 0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:36.319 thirty or thirty five or forty to sixty five to 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:39.960 seventy to seventy five and so into their eighties, right 0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:42.839 Peter Die you know, gosh, I think he's ninety two now, yeah, 0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:47.000 you know, And but no, it's really just it's really 0:42:47.040 --> 0:42:49.799 tough going up against a fifty nine year old, you know, 0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:52.040 Like if I go up against Gill at Aeronomy, you know, 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:54.799 it's like, how am I supposed to retain Ironomic? It's 0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:58.480 pretty impossible, you know. So you know, but I've been 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:01.000 fortunate to get some top one hunder clubs like Monroe. 0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:04.880 You know, they're a new client of mine. Cedar Rapids 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:06.680 just got in the top one hundred and ninety two. 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:09.160 You know, Northland hopefully will be in the top one 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:09.759 hundred soon. 0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:14.759 Skokey Beverly, that's uh so we're we're sitting here in 0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:19.920 Beverly in the clubhouse Great Chicago down Ross Course, and 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:23.400 you've been doing work with x More and Skokee and 0:43:23.480 --> 0:43:25.520 Evanston in the area, and we talked a little bit 0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:28.960 about golf scenes, like how do you feel Chicago stacks 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:32.239 up with Philly and New York and Long Island and 0:43:32.520 --> 0:43:35.360 San Francisco. You know, we'd kind of been touching the 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:37.080 major metro areas. 0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:40.960 Right, No One. The one thing that you need for 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:43.560 great golf is land, you know. And the unfortunate part 0:43:43.600 --> 0:43:46.800 with Chicago is it's so flat in so many areas. 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:49.040 And then you know the golf courses that stick out 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:52.240 in Chicago obviously that we talked about earlier, Chicago Golf, 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:56.319 Shore Acres, all down, Beverly and Skokee, all five of 0:43:56.320 --> 0:43:59.520 those courses have really great land in some part of 0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:02.160 their proper. And even though you know, people may say, oh, 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:06.799 Shoreykers is pretty darn flat with one nine eighteen, but 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:10.120 the ravines are so on god, I mean there's so 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:12.400 they come into play so well, like rain Or routed 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:15.000 that thing so well. I think you ten eleven, twelve 0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:16.800 twelve is epic. Thirteen fourteen. 0:44:17.040 --> 0:44:21.520 The idea of him bypassing the lake, yea, going into 0:44:21.640 --> 0:44:23.759 those ravines, like everybody's like, how is it not on 0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:25.759 the lake is like, well, it's probably the one of 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:27.240 the greatest routings of all. 0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:31.800 Time exactly exactly, So Chicago, it's just in my opinion 0:44:32.040 --> 0:44:34.760 I've seen. I feel like every time I'm in Chicago, 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:37.240 I try to walk another golf course. And so yesterday 0:44:37.280 --> 0:44:39.640 I went and saw three other golf courses, you know, 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.520 and and I have just a couple more on my 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:48.160 radar left to sea. But it's just you're just so 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:51.600 disappointed when you go onto a golf course and you're like, oh, 0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:53.799 the land is so devoid a character. You know, I 0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.480 wish there were there was more character. And one thing 0:44:56.520 --> 0:44:58.520 that I won't go too far down the rabbit hole though, 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:01.920 is Chicago was early Ross, so from like Hinsdale in 0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:06.200 nineteen thirteen to Beverly in nineteen nineteen. The lagrange Lagrange 0:45:06.280 --> 0:45:08.200 was probably one of his last in nineteen twenty one. 0:45:08.320 --> 0:45:10.880 So in eight years there from nineteen thirteen and nineteen 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:14.360 twenty one, Ross, did I think ten golf courses toned. Yeah. 0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:16.839 And the only one knock is that there's a lot 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:19.000 of back to front greens, you know, not a lot 0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:21.320 of them have supreme amounts of character. Because it was 0:45:21.360 --> 0:45:24.360 early Ross. It was teens, you know, Ross really started 0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:28.520 interjecting a lot of character and heavily bunkering his golf 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:31.440 courses more in the twenties because he was he was 0:45:31.840 --> 0:45:35.440 you know, changing his practices and theories because the ball 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.279 was advancing and the you know, steel shafts were coming 0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:41.520 into fruition in the late twenties, and so then he 0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:45.000 started more heavily bunkering his fronts of greens and putting 0:45:45.080 --> 0:45:48.000 more bunkers out there, and then adding more character into 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:51.880 putting services. So unfortunately for Chicago is it's early ross. 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:55.640 So a lot of them are pretty basic greens perched up, 0:45:55.680 --> 0:45:59.640 still really solid routings, but flat, you know, like oak parks, 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:01.919 pretty flat, you know, but these they got these great 0:46:01.960 --> 0:46:05.840 perch screens, you know, and and h X more. You know, 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:08.160 it has a role in the land. There a little bit, 0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:09.960 you know, a bluff where the clubhouse is, but it's 0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:13.879 pretty flat, you know, Indian Hill, you know, pretty flat. 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:16.719 They have drainage problems, it's so flat. And uh, you know, 0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:19.880 Hinsdale has some rolls out there. Lagrange has a few rolls. 0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:23.440 But to to finish off what I was, you know, 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:27.120 getting at is, you know, Chicago is such a great city. 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:29.640 It's one of my favorite cities, and I live here tomorrow. 0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:31.920 But it's just the golf is a little flat you know, 0:46:31.960 --> 0:46:33.880 it's a little boring. Whereas you go to Philly and 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:36.520 it's like, you know, the stuff's in your face. You 0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:38.640 go to northern New Jersey, New York, it's in your face. 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:42.400 Boston really hilly. You know, California we just talked about 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:46.400 even in La with bel Air and those great ravines 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:49.680 and arroyos and you know, that thing's in on the 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:51.920 side of a mountain almost you know, in Beverly Hills 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:54.680 and and Riviera, you know with the golf you know, 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.719 clubhouse way up on there, and you know, like l 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:00.480 A CEC maybe one of the best restorations in the world. 0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:04.239 You know that guilded out there. It's great property, you know. 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:08.120 And that's I always say Chicago, we we lack like 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.200 the star power of that. And really what it comes 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:13.320 down to his land, like we have so many great 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:17.160 like second tier golf courses, but we just don't have 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:20.920 like a plethora of top tier courses where like a 0:47:21.040 --> 0:47:23.280 New York you know, you you go down the list 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:25.200 and you get to ten and you're still like this 0:47:25.360 --> 0:47:29.279 world class golf course. We get to three two. But 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:32.759 I mean, so we're at Beverly and it's one of 0:47:32.760 --> 0:47:38.600 the core it's obviously constricted by by being inside Chicago proper. 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:40.640 I mean, you're in the hub. I always joke it's 0:47:40.640 --> 0:47:43.720 the loudest golf course in the world. You got planes 0:47:43.719 --> 0:47:46.000 flying over you. But it's also one of the most 0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:49.279 unique in the sense of its history, the history of 0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:53.880 the land. How do you approach a project like Beverly 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:57.440 where you have a rich championship history, Like, you know, 0:47:57.480 --> 0:48:00.680 what are you looking at when you start to develop 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:01.399 a master plan? 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:05.719 What we look at, you know, is I came into 0:48:05.760 --> 0:48:09.120 the clubhouse and I got together with Kirkspeth, the superintendent, 0:48:09.200 --> 0:48:11.400 and I said, look, I need to get up in 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:13.600 the attic, you know, I need to get in the 0:48:13.640 --> 0:48:16.920 clubhouse and find anything I can, you know, And like 0:48:17.000 --> 0:48:19.759 Ron Pritchard, he's found old Ross master plans, Like he 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:22.480 found an old Ross plane at Country cub of Buffalo 0:48:22.560 --> 0:48:25.040 that they never knew existed. And so he's found I 0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:28.040 think four or five original Ross plans tucked away in 0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:31.319 the attics and in old lockers. And so we first 0:48:31.320 --> 0:48:33.040 tried to do that and try to find stuff that 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:36.799 maybe isn't around or even known, you know, like at 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:41.160 Mountain Lake, I found a nineteen thirty seven aerial on 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:46.520 the Florida University of Florida's historical database and they they 0:48:46.600 --> 0:48:49.560 never had any aerials before nineteen fifty. And so it's 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:53.480 things like that where we really make our you know, value, 0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:55.640 We bring our value where we try to find and 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:59.719 research all the old aerials, any photography, all the old 0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:02.359 news clippings. And I have a couple of guys who 0:49:02.360 --> 0:49:05.000 I work with who do a lot of research with me, 0:49:05.120 --> 0:49:07.239 who helped me out. So we first tried to do 0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:09.920 a research period and say, okay, what did it look like, 0:49:10.320 --> 0:49:14.120 and then we try to get a timeline of you know, okay, Beverly. 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:17.279 Beverly was a Georgia O'Neil from nineteen oh eight, and 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:20.600 it's almost identically routed. Now, you know, Ross came in 0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:23.479 and just changed a few holes on the front nine. 0:49:23.560 --> 0:49:26.360 The back nine is pretty much almost O'Neil from nineteen 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:28.480 oh eight. So when you see the nineteen oh eight 0:49:28.560 --> 0:49:31.399 on logo, it's pretty much in nineteen oh eight golf course. 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:34.239 Ross came in nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen, and I have 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:37.280 all the newspaper clippings, and so we show the club 0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:41.360 the George O'Neil routing, and we show them the Ross 0:49:41.440 --> 0:49:44.680 you know, changes in nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen. It opened 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:47.320 in nineteen nineteen, and there's all these great newspaper articles 0:49:47.320 --> 0:49:50.360 about those changes. He filled in a pond on fifteen 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:53.360 or on sixteen, and then he lowered the ridge on 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:58.160 eleven that we looked at this morning. He rebuilt a 0:49:58.160 --> 0:50:00.680 couple you know, he rebuilt every green site. The George 0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.319 O'Neal greens were very flat right on the ground, and 0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:06.680 so Ross perched all the greens, and so he was 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:10.640 not very heavy handed in a routing sense, but in 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:14.920 an architectural sense, with adding the bunkers, perching the greens, 0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:19.080 putting the character in the greens. So then we go 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:22.400 through and we try to unmask the layers. Okay, what okay, 0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:24.920 nineteen oh eight we have that. Nineteen eighteen we have 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:27.880 what Ross did pretty much, you know, from the newspaper 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:31.200 articles and everything. Then we see, okay, nineteen thirty one, 0:50:31.239 --> 0:50:33.120 we have all these great photos because they had the 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:37.160 US amateur that Francis. We went one and Bobby Jones 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:39.680 was here, everybody was here. We have all these incredible 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:42.520 photos from nineteen thirty one. But we do know from 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:46.160 nineteen eighteen to nineteen thirty one, some things changed. Chick 0:50:46.280 --> 0:50:49.640 Evans was local great golfer, and he came in and 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:53.160 he had a proclivity where, you know, he loved tinkering 0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:56.520 with bunkers and putting these little noses on all these bunkers. 0:50:56.840 --> 0:50:59.480 So we see in the nineteen thirty one aerial that 0:50:59.560 --> 0:51:03.480 they're start to become these noses in you know, ten 0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:06.480 to fourteen of the bunkers where chick Evans was kind 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:10.200 of tinkering out here. So then we kind of okay, 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.960 we know what chick did. Then we see aerials from 0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:17.319 nineteen thirty nine. We have forty nine, fifty nine, seventy one, 0:51:17.640 --> 0:51:19.400 you know, all the way up to eighty five. And 0:51:19.440 --> 0:51:22.680 then now then the trees started, you know, encroaching. All 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:25.920 the trees were planted in the fifties sixty seventies. Then 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:28.719 the fairway line shrunk, then the green shrunk. Then they 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:30.600 brought in Bob Lohman and a couple other guys in 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:33.680 the eighties and they rebuilt Green number seven, number eight, 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:36.080 and they moved to Green number nine because of the 0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:41.279 green irre because of the expansion of yeah, of I 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:43.440 call it highway eighty seven because it's like a highway, 0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:47.439 but eighty seven street. And so we know that those 0:51:47.440 --> 0:51:49.759 three greens were rebuilt. And then we do know that 0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:53.920 Green six was rebuilt, but we think by Ross because 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:57.200 we have an aerial that shows it mid movement when 0:51:57.200 --> 0:52:00.360 they pushed back seventy for the old lake Miss Chicken 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:04.680 Bluff to come into play. So we basically know what 0:52:04.800 --> 0:52:08.239 greens were rebuilt, how the routing was and so then 0:52:08.280 --> 0:52:10.799 we begin to build our master plan with all that, 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:13.880 you know, the foundation of all that stuff. We say, wow, 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:15.840 well we got to do a lot of tree removal, 0:52:16.000 --> 0:52:17.560 you know, because we're going to try to open up 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:20.200 the playing corridors. We're going to open up the widen 0:52:20.239 --> 0:52:23.240 out the fairways, put the bunkers back to where Ross 0:52:23.280 --> 0:52:27.960 had them, you know, rebuild the t's, lowered them a 0:52:27.960 --> 0:52:29.759 little bit. You know, in the eighties they brought in 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:33.080 all this fill, you know, a contractor somebody did. All 0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:35.400 the t's are five feet in the air. They're all perched, 0:52:35.680 --> 0:52:37.160 and so we're going to try to beat down the 0:52:37.200 --> 0:52:39.279 t's you know, to six or six inches to a 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:41.399 foot above grade, widen them out. 0:52:41.400 --> 0:52:42.359 Better workout. 0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:45.120 You walk up the help right right, every tea bucks 0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:46.640 five feet in the air. You know, it's like where 0:52:46.640 --> 0:52:47.600 did the caddies stand? 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:51.640 It's funny, I came. I've played here in twenty ten 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:55.759 for the stadium and yeah, I for I didn't even 0:52:55.880 --> 0:52:58.200 think about the tea boxes. But then we come out 0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:00.200 here and like it's like one of the first things 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:03.000 that you notice, Like when you come with a different 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:05.600 you're looking at it, of course from a different lens 0:53:05.640 --> 0:53:08.960 and different perspective. Now it's but god, it looks so 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:11.279 much better with it with the tree removal. I mean, 0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:14.839 the corridors, being able to uncover all the different green 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:18.919 sites and seeing them close together, and the layers and 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:23.040 you know, having bunkers on other greens that deceptively look 0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:26.840 like they're on on other holes. I mean the routing 0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:29.640 was really good for O'Neill. I mean he, I mean 0:53:29.680 --> 0:53:30.560 he did a great job. 0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:33.560 Unbelievable. I mean the routing at Beverly, the back nine 0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:36.080 is I don't know how you can do any better. 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:40.319 I've tried to think about it, but yeah, it's it's unbelievable. 0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:44.560 And yeah, I mean so now we're just detriating the property, 0:53:44.560 --> 0:53:47.000 trying to expose the topography because what you know, what 0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:50.799 we talked about earlier is why Chicago golf you know, 0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:52.799 why is it just lacking and why is it a 0:53:52.800 --> 0:53:57.680 little you know behind other metro areas because of the topography. Well, 0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:01.120 what is Beverly blessed with unbelievab topography. I mean, it 0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:03.439 is a roller coaster out here. It is like being 0:54:03.440 --> 0:54:06.040 in Philly or New York, or it's like being in 0:54:06.080 --> 0:54:08.520 San fran you know, and it has these big valleys 0:54:08.520 --> 0:54:11.759 and big high points, and so we want the topography 0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:15.120 to be the star here and the show, you know, 0:54:15.280 --> 0:54:17.879 expose that and we're going to add you know, light 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:21.480 fescue throughout the golf course, so we have that aesthetic. 0:54:22.600 --> 0:54:25.840 So we have that pleasing you know, those different colors 0:54:25.840 --> 0:54:29.080 out here in the summer, and you know, just really 0:54:29.120 --> 0:54:32.600 expose its assets and get the golf course back and 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.400 you know, and hopefully bring it back in the really 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:39.080 top five conversation as you know, Chicago Golf Club. 0:54:39.400 --> 0:54:43.160 Yeah, I think it's there. I I mean, I'm I'm biased. 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:46.960 I'm I'm a classic golf course lover, and my my 0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:49.719 top five is different than a lot of the magazines. 0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:52.759 So it's but this is this has always been a 0:54:52.800 --> 0:54:56.040 place that ever since I played here that back then. 0:54:56.120 --> 0:54:58.640 I just love this place. It's it's got so much 0:54:59.080 --> 0:55:02.040 and it is it's a aspect of the land. I mean, 0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:06.640 it's it's got some really interesting holes and it it 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.839 it's got fairway slopes, it's got you know you have 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:12.719 to hit over, it's got some blindness to it. It's 0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:16.920 got really unique green positions where they're perched on up 0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:20.319 on like little knoles where you you know, as what 0:55:20.360 --> 0:55:24.280 we've seen with the tree removal out here is it's 0:55:24.320 --> 0:55:28.240 bringing back these infinity style greens that you know, really 0:55:28.480 --> 0:55:31.040 mess with your eye and then mess with your mind 0:55:31.040 --> 0:55:32.600 when you're standing over a shot. 0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:35.719 Yeah, that's that's the best thing I learned from Mike 0:55:35.800 --> 0:55:38.960 Strands growing up and traveling with my father to go 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:41.839 see you know, World New Ken and Caledonia and True 0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:44.280 Blue was Mike Strands would beat you off the tee 0:55:44.440 --> 0:55:46.759 before you even hit your first shot at Tobacco Road. 0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:49.600 You're like, oh my gosh, the fairway looks like it's 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:52.520 it's non existent. And so the mental part of golf, 0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:56.880 you know, that is so underrated, where you're you know, 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.480 interjecting that doubt before you even hit the golf ball 0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:02.319 on Beverly has that in so many locations where you're 0:56:02.360 --> 0:56:04.839 on seven and you're like, how far is how far 0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:07.880 is it to clear that bluff? You know, we're on eleven. 0:56:08.200 --> 0:56:10.759 Where is the fair way out there? You know you're 0:56:10.800 --> 0:56:13.959 hitting a blind t shot. And so it's these little 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:17.719 things that golfers you know, take for granted or don't 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:21.360 really even you know, have interjected into the game. You know, 0:56:21.480 --> 0:56:25.360 the doubt, the blindness, the the little you know, the 0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:28.760 scariness off the tee of Wow, the punkers look scary 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:31.040 out there, like I better avoid these hazards. 0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:36.239 Who's your mount Rushmore of golf course architects. 0:56:37.840 --> 0:56:40.640 Well, I'm a Flynn homer, which is funny because I 0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:42.640 work so much. I work so much on ross. 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:44.520 But I think Flynn's super underrated. 0:56:44.600 --> 0:56:46.719 Yeah, I mean you take his top five. I mean 0:56:46.719 --> 0:56:51.120 you got Shinna Cock and you know Huntington Valley and Lancaster. 0:56:51.440 --> 0:56:54.200 You know, Lancaster Country Club has maybe the best routing 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:56.319 in America, you know, and Tom Doak I think has 0:56:56.400 --> 0:57:00.040 hit on that, but Lancaster is unparalleled and routing. I 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:02.359 think it's the best routing in the world actually, And 0:57:04.200 --> 0:57:07.640 so Flynn growing up in Philly, playing Hunton Valley, playing 0:57:07.640 --> 0:57:12.200 Philly Country. I'm in Flynn, Homer. You know Marion Marion 0:57:12.280 --> 0:57:14.760 is a Flynn golf course. I mean Flynn. Flynn redid 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:20.320 Marion for nineteen eighteen, nineteen twenty four AM, nineteen twenty AM, 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:23.760 nineteen thirty open. You know, he tinkered with that all 0:57:23.760 --> 0:57:25.760 the way up until thirty two, and so he almost 0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:29.040 pretty much rebuilt Marion three times. 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:32.240 It drives me nuts because here in Chicago there was 0:57:32.280 --> 0:57:36.000 an estate course called mill Road Farm that was a flynn. 0:57:35.680 --> 0:57:38.000 That the longest flynn ever. They called it. 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:41.240 The Oakeman of the Midwest. And he had a running 0:57:41.280 --> 0:57:44.640 bet with professionals that nobody could break par and I 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:49.040 think only Tommy Armor broke Parr, like one guy of hundreds, 0:57:49.240 --> 0:57:52.520 if not thousands of pros that came through broke Parr. 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:56.320 And then he also did Pine Meadow, which is a 0:57:56.560 --> 0:57:59.960 public course here. Unbelieve it is a great piece of land, 0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:04.000 and unfortunately Joe Lee got his hands on it and 0:58:04.760 --> 0:58:07.360 now there's a bunch of lakes and a bunch of it. 0:58:07.400 --> 0:58:09.760 But that would be a really cool place to see 0:58:09.960 --> 0:58:15.160 go back because it's owned by a bunch of nuns. Whoa, Yeah, 0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:17.960 it's pretty neat. It's I think the Jemsick family owns 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:20.960 the property, so yeah, or it has the long term 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:21.560 lease on it. 0:58:21.720 --> 0:58:25.720 Yeah. But wow. Well to answer your question though, you 0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:28.280 know the Mountain Rushmore Flynn would be my number one. 0:58:28.560 --> 0:58:31.280 You know, I wish he just didn't live that long. 0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:34.120 You know, he died and I think in nineteen forty 0:58:34.200 --> 0:58:37.200 or thirty nine, and it was just a pretty you know, 0:58:37.320 --> 0:58:38.920 or maybe it was forty four, I think, but it 0:58:38.960 --> 0:58:43.920 was it was before the depression ended. And but it Flynn. 0:58:44.000 --> 0:58:45.960 And then you know, I love Walter Travis because his 0:58:46.040 --> 0:58:48.760 greens are so you know, I'm throwing a wild card 0:58:48.760 --> 0:58:50.040 out there, and Walter Travis because he. 0:58:50.040 --> 0:58:51.080 Got two wild Yeah. 0:58:51.120 --> 0:58:53.240 But you go of the Cape Rundle. I did that 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:57.080 project for Bruce Hepner and Doak and bro Cape runnal 0:58:57.160 --> 0:58:59.040 of greens. It's like many Augusta greens. And then you 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:02.600 go to a country club a trolly and and I mean, gosh, 0:59:02.600 --> 0:59:05.080 there you know country Clovis Scranton that I mentioned earlier. 0:59:05.120 --> 0:59:09.920 I mean the you know, Travis had such a great 0:59:10.040 --> 0:59:12.360 mind for greens. He was such a great putter. So 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:15.360 Flynn Travis. You know, I gotta go with Ross obviously, 0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:18.840 you know for routings and just you know, the guy 0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:20.560 was a genius. I just don't know how he did it, 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:24.800 you know, and and and then Mackenzie, you know, because 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:28.080 McKenzie had that flare, you know, that sexiness. You know, 0:59:28.160 --> 0:59:31.800 he was just man, he was a wild drinker and partier. 0:59:31.840 --> 0:59:34.320 I've heard all the stories down in Australia, you know, 0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:36.360 like he would he would knock off work at two 0:59:36.480 --> 0:59:39.360 and man he'd be in the bar told midnight, you know, 0:59:39.920 --> 0:59:42.000 with his bottle of I think of a Scotch or 0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:45.360 whatever he drank, you know, whiskey. But uh, but so 0:59:45.440 --> 0:59:48.520 those five how many are my Rushan were four? Though? Yeah, 0:59:48.600 --> 0:59:50.040 so I gotta leave. 0:59:49.920 --> 0:59:55.040 You got you got four Ross, Flynn, Travis and Mackenzie. 0:59:55.120 --> 0:59:56.160 Boom, there we go. 0:59:56.320 --> 0:59:58.200 Gotta I gotta gotta leave a lot. 0:59:58.080 --> 1:00:03.240 Of Sorry Rainer, Sorry, I love those guys, and but man, 1:00:03.280 --> 1:00:05.080 when you knock them down to Ford stuff. 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:07.600 Yeah it is. It's there's so many good ones out 1:00:07.640 --> 1:00:10.479 there and you're not even including any of the modern guys. 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.480 You sorry, Martin, I'm sorry modern guys. I'm a homer 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:14.240 for the old stuff. 1:00:14.400 --> 1:00:17.840 I am too. Yeah, there's nothing, nothing better than that. 1:00:18.000 --> 1:00:19.360 I think I've part of the best part of the 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:22.120 why they're so popular now is that they were designed 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:25.400 for championship golf now and it's perfect for every day 1:00:25.520 --> 1:00:30.760 golf now exactly. So it's all right, well, uh, we're 1:00:30.800 --> 1:00:38.720 gonna do some overrated, underrateds. So let's start with template holes. 1:00:40.600 --> 1:00:45.280 Overrated. Sorry, Yeah, they're there's a place for them. But 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:50.200 you know, I've seen them all. They work, they're great. 1:00:50.240 --> 1:00:54.600 Old McDonald's really cool. But when you find that one 1:00:54.680 --> 1:00:56.560 golf hole, like you go to Woodhill and you're on 1:00:56.600 --> 1:00:59.760 the second hole and it's literally a two or twenty 1:00:59.800 --> 1:01:01.320 hole where if you hit the green you might make 1:01:01.360 --> 1:01:02.760 it two, but if you miss the green, you might 1:01:02.800 --> 1:01:04.760 make a twenty, like an engineer's you know, one of 1:01:04.800 --> 1:01:07.520 those two or twenty holes, and you're like, I've never 1:01:07.560 --> 1:01:09.720 seen a ross hole like this, you know, out of 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:12.080 all the golf courses I've seen. So I like the 1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:15.720 ones where it's you know, the land is dictated the 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:17.640 hole and it's like a one off and you're like, 1:01:17.680 --> 1:01:20.280 oh my gosh, how cool is this hole? You know, 1:01:20.400 --> 1:01:23.080 Like yesterday I was down at how you met in 1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:26.120 the sixteenth hole. There it's like this volcano par three. 1:01:26.200 --> 1:01:28.320 This green's way up on this bluff. It's the highest 1:01:28.400 --> 1:01:31.080 one on the golf course. It's like, WHOA, how cool 1:01:31.160 --> 1:01:33.240 is that? Part three? And I know they've messed around 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:34.800 with that green and knocked it down a little bit. 1:01:34.840 --> 1:01:38.400 But now, I think when you utilize the land and 1:01:38.440 --> 1:01:42.480 you have a really unique hole, you know, like a 1:01:42.480 --> 1:01:45.160 seed of rabids. The ninth hole is five hundred and 1:01:45.200 --> 1:01:48.240 sixty yards, but it gently climbs all the way up 1:01:48.320 --> 1:01:51.080 this big valley to a punch bowl green and you're like, 1:01:51.200 --> 1:01:54.320 wait a second, you have a blind punch bowl green, 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:57.280 like an alps hole at the end of this unbelievably 1:01:57.400 --> 1:02:01.280 big valley hole that's reminiscs in an eighteen green and 1:02:01.280 --> 1:02:04.160 you're like, I've never seen anything like this in golf 1:02:04.800 --> 1:02:07.760 and wow, You're just like this is cedar rabbits. And 1:02:07.800 --> 1:02:10.200 then like another hole of cedar rabbits. There's a they 1:02:10.240 --> 1:02:13.080 call an old burial Indian mound. There's a mound that's 1:02:13.920 --> 1:02:16.120 fifty two feet in the air on the fourteenth hole 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:19.240 and you hit a drive out to this flat fairway 1:02:19.560 --> 1:02:21.640 and then this green's fifty two feet in the air 1:02:21.760 --> 1:02:24.040 or forty eight feet in the air that goes away 1:02:24.080 --> 1:02:27.640 from you, and you're like, this is so cool because 1:02:27.640 --> 1:02:30.720 it's unlike anything I've seen. And so yeah, the templates 1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:33.480 have their spot and they're great and they were Dans 1:02:33.520 --> 1:02:36.880 so great. And then you know beer ritz you know, 1:02:36.920 --> 1:02:39.480 but like how about the beerrits at Somerset Hills that 1:02:39.960 --> 1:02:42.600 you know, it's what ten eleven, twelve thirteen, you know 1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:45.640 that that Tilly put in there. It's like it's a 1:02:45.680 --> 1:02:48.360 par four burrits, you know, and that was nineteen fourteen. 1:02:48.920 --> 1:02:52.240 That was pretty freaking early for you know, burrits. Really cool. 1:02:52.600 --> 1:02:56.360 It's a lot of the best architecture breaks rules, right, 1:02:56.480 --> 1:02:59.000 you know, like nobody would build a green on a 1:02:59.360 --> 1:03:01.920 fifty two f foot mound that runs away now a 1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:04.920 blind running away at green. But it's so neat that 1:03:05.120 --> 1:03:07.160 there's a lot of like, you know, the most interesting 1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:10.840 routings are the ones that are very extreme, like you 1:03:10.840 --> 1:03:13.720 talked about with Northwood climbing up and then the ninth 1:03:13.760 --> 1:03:16.960 hole is all the way far away from the Northland, 1:03:17.400 --> 1:03:21.040 far away from the clubhouse. Like that's not an American 1:03:21.120 --> 1:03:27.200 golf traditional sense, and it's a different So yeah, and 1:03:27.240 --> 1:03:29.720 then you see with Rayner and McDonald, a lot of 1:03:29.760 --> 1:03:31.520 the greatest holes are non template holes. 1:03:31.600 --> 1:03:32.520 Yeah, they're one offs. 1:03:32.600 --> 1:03:36.040 Yeah, like a Yamen's Hall and eleven at Shore Acres. 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:38.360 Yeah, yeah, exactly what we talked about earlier. 1:03:38.480 --> 1:03:40.880 Yeah, fifteen at Short Acres. Yeah, like probably the two 1:03:40.960 --> 1:03:41.680 best holes. 1:03:41.480 --> 1:03:43.479 On the golf two favorite probably, yeah, are. 1:03:43.920 --> 1:03:46.960 Non template holes. So that's That's something that frustrates me 1:03:47.040 --> 1:03:51.120 sometimes with Rainer is that everybody says, like, oh, the templates, 1:03:51.120 --> 1:03:53.640 so he just had the same, but like the holes 1:03:53.640 --> 1:03:56.280 that he found on each property were exception. 1:03:56.360 --> 1:03:59.240 He utilized the land so well with that surveying background 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:02.520 of his. You know, he found he found the edens, 1:04:02.560 --> 1:04:05.720 you know, he found the dands, he found the burritz, 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:09.520 he found you know, the prized dog leg and the 1:04:09.600 --> 1:04:12.760 road holes. He found them. So it took skill. Then 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:14.160 Rainer was awesome. 1:04:14.200 --> 1:04:18.320 It's amazing. He didn't know anything about golf until mind 1:04:18.360 --> 1:04:20.160 boggling McDonald hired him for that. 1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:23.880 Yeah, it just blows your mind. But like Yale, Like 1:04:23.920 --> 1:04:29.280 how good is Yale? You know that's a great land, Yeah, 1:04:29.480 --> 1:04:32.640 really great land, like almost mountainous land, like going up ten. 1:04:33.080 --> 1:04:35.200 You know, it's a skyscraper in front of you you know, 1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:38.480 and left of two. You know, it's like a forty 1:04:38.520 --> 1:04:41.080 five foot drop into that bunker. Yeah, Like, well I 1:04:41.120 --> 1:04:41.680 better not hit it. 1:04:41.800 --> 1:04:46.600 Left overrated, underrated professional golf. 1:04:49.600 --> 1:04:52.200 There's a place for it. There's definitely a place for it. 1:04:52.640 --> 1:04:58.680 But to answer your question, overrated in this time period, 1:04:59.000 --> 1:05:01.280 I think it was underrated maybe back in the day, 1:05:01.840 --> 1:05:05.000 you know, professional golf. They weren't paid well, those guys 1:05:05.040 --> 1:05:08.800 were like grinding awesome. Now it's just irks me a 1:05:08.800 --> 1:05:10.800 little bit that these guys just line it up on 1:05:11.240 --> 1:05:15.160 you know, and just bang it straight. I just I 1:05:15.200 --> 1:05:17.840 love the Bubba's and the guys who work the ball 1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:20.600 and the Freddy couples who hit the buttercut, you know, 1:05:20.800 --> 1:05:21.840 working the ball, I think. 1:05:21.720 --> 1:05:24.040 As a lost art both doesn't spend it. 1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:26.200 Yeah, the ball didn't spend and the grooves and all that, 1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:30.680 and there's just too much money, you know, involved, and 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:33.400 there's there's just no you know, I'm a field player. 1:05:33.520 --> 1:05:36.400 I hit a cut fade, you know, I worked the 1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:39.959 ball around, and I just feel like there's there's none 1:05:39.960 --> 1:05:42.240 of that really left. There's just a couple guys. 1:05:42.760 --> 1:05:46.560 Yeah, I think I hope there's a Hickory revolution. I 1:05:46.560 --> 1:05:50.280 played with hickories in northern California, and it's just that 1:05:50.640 --> 1:05:53.720 it brought a lot of artistry and mid irons and 1:05:53.920 --> 1:05:57.080 stuff back into play. And really, especially when after you 1:05:57.120 --> 1:05:59.640 walk around a golf course like Beverly and you think 1:05:59.680 --> 1:06:03.280 about playing it from fifty yards shorter off the tee. 1:06:03.640 --> 1:06:06.040 Oh yeah, it's like, oh, all of a sudden, like 1:06:06.680 --> 1:06:11.120 this is a lot. This is a very difficult shot. Yeah, 1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:13.120 and you have to be really good. It just would 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:16.400 bring so much balance back into it. But it's it 1:06:16.480 --> 1:06:18.840 is more structured now, and. 1:06:19.040 --> 1:06:21.959 The wind would blow that ball, that ball would move 1:06:22.160 --> 1:06:25.160 and drop suddenly. You know, it's almost like a knuckleball 1:06:25.280 --> 1:06:27.600 how the ball used to fly and it would just 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:29.440 like come out of the air and just stop and 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:30.400 you're like what happened? 1:06:31.000 --> 1:06:32.560 And then if you hit a really if you hit 1:06:32.600 --> 1:06:34.640 a bad one, it just it goes no. 1:06:34.680 --> 1:06:38.040 Where this hits. We're just tailing, you know, zero right, 1:06:39.240 --> 1:06:40.400 you know, left or right. 1:06:40.560 --> 1:06:43.200 Part of me though, thinks sometimes that that would be 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:46.439 better for the higher handicap because they would go less 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:49.920 off line. Like today, the ball just in the equipment. 1:06:50.160 --> 1:06:53.960 They high handicap players rarely hit the ball online and 1:06:54.280 --> 1:06:56.240 the ball just soars offline further. 1:06:56.360 --> 1:06:58.280 Yeah, it goes further and further away from the line 1:06:58.280 --> 1:07:00.360 to play. Yeah, like wow, I really hit that one 1:07:00.360 --> 1:07:03.160 at that time. But whoa, look how far right it's going. 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:06.200 Like it's like I you know, growing up caddying for 1:07:06.360 --> 1:07:08.400 like really good women. They just kept the ball in 1:07:08.400 --> 1:07:09.520 front of the I'm like a lot of times they 1:07:09.520 --> 1:07:11.400 didn't get but you know, the end of the end 1:07:11.440 --> 1:07:13.040 of the day they shoot eighty two and it's like 1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:15.760 they did it by just keeping the ball in front, 1:07:16.000 --> 1:07:20.080 like keep it in playing. It's yeah, it's crazy, but 1:07:20.760 --> 1:07:25.320 everybody wants to hit it far. So last overrated, underrated 1:07:26.120 --> 1:07:32.640 nineteen twenties Donald Ross. 1:07:31.800 --> 1:07:38.200 I would say, oh, well we're finally getting to where 1:07:38.200 --> 1:07:43.680 they're you know, back in the limelight. So I would 1:07:43.760 --> 1:07:47.840 say twenties are over or nineteen twenty will be overrated. 1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:53.480 His his real his his unbelievable era. I was like 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:58.080 twenty four to twenty eight, twenty nine. You know he 1:07:58.120 --> 1:08:00.920 went on a run there when where Ross did a 1:08:01.040 --> 1:08:04.040 ron him. Then they went up the Mountain Ridge Plainfield, 1:08:04.760 --> 1:08:07.840 then down the Seminole. I mean they had a run 1:08:07.880 --> 1:08:10.480 there of like four years from twenty seven to thirty one. 1:08:11.440 --> 1:08:14.120 Oh my gosh. You know, they were like on fire. 1:08:14.320 --> 1:08:20.519 This guy's his crew. Yeah, so late twenties underrated, early twenties. 1:08:20.520 --> 1:08:22.920 I think he was just coming into his real real 1:08:23.560 --> 1:08:24.000 you know. 1:08:24.840 --> 1:08:26.439 How old would he have been then? He would have 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:28.040 been about fifty years old. 1:08:28.120 --> 1:08:34.320 Right, Yeah, he was Yeah, eighteen ninety nine when he emigrated, 1:08:34.360 --> 1:08:37.200 he was I think he was twenty seven. You know, 1:08:37.320 --> 1:08:38.920 he was born in eighteen seventy two, so he was 1:08:38.920 --> 1:08:44.320 twenty seven when he emigrated. So yeah, twenty nineteen twenty two, 1:08:44.400 --> 1:08:48.080 he was fifty, so he was forty eight in nineteen twenty. 1:08:48.320 --> 1:08:51.360 What happened is in nineteen twenty one he really spiked 1:08:51.439 --> 1:08:54.519 up his work. But then that's also when his wife died, 1:08:54.960 --> 1:08:57.519 So I think he had a little he had, you know, 1:08:57.560 --> 1:08:59.680 from nineteen twenty to nineteen twenty three or four, he 1:08:59.800 --> 1:09:02.559 just wasn't focused, I don't think because his first wife died, 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:06.439 you know, Susie or and she was or you know, 1:09:06.720 --> 1:09:10.880 I think that really took his his uh focus away. 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:13.960 But in nineteen twenty one, he had like thirty nine projects, 1:09:14.240 --> 1:09:16.559 So nineteen twenty one was his busiest year, but then 1:09:16.600 --> 1:09:19.880 his wife was dying, So I think kind of from 1:09:20.320 --> 1:09:25.560 nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty three, it might be overrated, 1:09:25.680 --> 1:09:27.960 you know, and then he like got his focus back, 1:09:28.040 --> 1:09:30.519 and from twenty four to thirty one, when the you know, 1:09:30.680 --> 1:09:34.160 when the real effects of the Great Depression knocked his business, 1:09:34.760 --> 1:09:37.240 you know, to zero. I think they had like three 1:09:37.280 --> 1:09:40.400 projects in nineteen thirty thirty one, you know, Jeffersonville and 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:42.400 PA was one of them, and it was a public 1:09:42.439 --> 1:09:47.600 golf course. But in twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty seven, woo. 1:09:47.640 --> 1:09:52.280 I mean they were really really doing some incredible stuff. 1:09:53.160 --> 1:09:57.280 So all right, Tyler, thanks for coming on. It was 1:09:57.640 --> 1:10:00.479 thanks fun talk. We'll have to do it another one 1:10:00.720 --> 1:10:03.439 for sure, you know, another subject. You got a lot 1:10:03.439 --> 1:10:05.280 of knowledge from those travels. 1:10:05.479 --> 1:10:07.920 Yeah. Yeah, I love traveling. I mean that's all I 1:10:07.960 --> 1:10:10.320 do is go walk off course as much as I can, 1:10:10.400 --> 1:10:13.679 and I know it's addicting. I love it. It's my favorite 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.000 thing to do. And thanks so much for having me on. 1:10:16.080 --> 1:10:18.840 And uh, you know, for the young guys in golf architecture, 1:10:19.080 --> 1:10:22.360 you know, the next wave, you know, thanks for exposing 1:10:22.439 --> 1:10:24.360 us a little bit. You know, I really appreciate it. 1:10:24.640 --> 1:10:28.360 Yeah for sure, and uh yeah, we can follow you 1:10:28.439 --> 1:10:30.040 on Twitter. 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:34.240 You on Instagram too, I am, but you know social media, 1:10:34.280 --> 1:10:37.320 it's like I just don't have the time. And both 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:40.480 at Tyler aid Design so people. 1:10:40.160 --> 1:10:42.200 Can find you there and then they can they can 1:10:42.240 --> 1:10:45.760 go check out your site too, So it's all right. 1:10:46.120 --> 1:10:48.000 Thanks again and we'll talk soon. 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:51.599 Great, thanks Andy, but you've been listening to the fried 1:10:51.720 --> 1:10:54.680 Egg podcast. We do the digging for you.