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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by golf course architect Tyler Ray. Tyler is

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Speaker 1: one of the bright young architects in the golf industry.

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Speaker 1: He has worked for Keith Fosser, Bill Cooorr and Ben

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Speaker 1: Crenshaw and most recently Ron Pritchard. I joined Tyler to

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Speaker 1: check out his work at Beverly Country Club in Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Without further ado, here's Tyler Ray. I miss the green,

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Speaker 1: for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball

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Speaker 1: in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid egg

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Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Fridagg frigg Frida Egg

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Speaker 2: bride egg.

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Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the golf course.

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Speaker 1: How many Donald Ross courses have you seen?

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Speaker 2: I have about thirty thirty two left to see, So

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Speaker 2: there's you know existing. If there's three hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: two I think left existing, you know, about forty five

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Speaker 2: of those have been altered, you know, beyond recognition. So

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Speaker 2: there's two hundred and ninety seven left that are in

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Speaker 2: the flesh. Yeah, I probably have thirty or so left.

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Speaker 1: How many of the say two hundred and ninety or

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Speaker 1: that are in the flesh, are close to their original

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Speaker 1: or you know, is there a percentage that you would

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Speaker 1: say are close to what they originally were?

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Speaker 2: There are probably, gosh, probably sixty percent that are pretty

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Speaker 2: solid that are you know, that haven't had all the

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Speaker 2: greens blown up and routings altered. So we're saying probably

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Speaker 2: maybe one hundred and eighty to two hundred, you know,

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Speaker 2: are really good and solid still out there.

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Speaker 1: Ross is an architect that now I feel like almost

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Speaker 1: every major city has like a public Donald Ross course.

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Speaker 1: And whenever I somebody asked me for recommendations and different cities,

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Speaker 1: I always say, I always look up like Ross courses

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Speaker 1: in the area because it's usually a pretty sure bet

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Speaker 1: that it's going to be decent, and you know, amazingly,

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Speaker 1: it's always it always seems like those courses are also

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Speaker 1: the most affordable ones in different cities. What are some

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Speaker 1: of your favorite public Ross courses that you've seen.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good one. Triggs Memorial is really good

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Speaker 2: in Providence. Wilmington Golf Club down in Wilmington, North Carolina.

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Speaker 2: All the bones there are really good. Obviously, Newton up

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Speaker 2: in Boston, and Commonwealth. Let's see rabis Low here in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: I mean almost every town has something great, you know,

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Speaker 2: something really good h Ross. Even if you go in Detroit,

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Speaker 2: you know, rack them, oh you know, the highway kind

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Speaker 2: of ruin, rack them a little bit, but rack them

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Speaker 2: has so many good bones. And then and then gosh,

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Speaker 2: you know, even in North Carolina there's so many great obviously,

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Speaker 2: you know, all the ones around Pinehurst, they're all you know,

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Speaker 2: Southern Pines is so underrated. You know, there's so many

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Speaker 2: good part fours at Southern Pines. And then obviously a

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Speaker 2: bunch in Florida that don't get any love.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to Pinehurst soon and that's a definite stop

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Speaker 1: is going to be at Southern Pines. That's I hear.

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Speaker 1: Great Bones could be something really special.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that uh, I've been politicking, you know for that.

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Speaker 2: And I know Kyle Franz is the man down there

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Speaker 2: right now, and he's a good buddy. I'm but man

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Speaker 2: Southern Pines. You know, when I go play golf trips

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Speaker 2: with buddies and we go down Pinehurst, it's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: number two Dormy, you know, Pine Needles, Midpines. But hey,

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Speaker 2: boys like come with me. I'm going to show you

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Speaker 2: something in the afternoon that'll you know, rock your socks

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Speaker 2: off for forty dollars and we can drink some beers

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Speaker 2: and have fun and the architecture will really wow you.

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Speaker 2: And then at the end of the trip they're always like, man,

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Speaker 2: I think I had the most fun at Southern Pines

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Speaker 2: because it didn't beat me up. The greens are really

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Speaker 2: really interesting, the routings on you know, the routing is unparalleled,

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Speaker 2: and the land it really gets hilly back there, you

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Speaker 2: know on six, seven, eight, nine, ten, I mean it's

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Speaker 2: hilly for Pinehurst.

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Speaker 1: So it's funny that Zach Blair and I went on

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Speaker 1: that that long San Francisco trip and the one that

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Speaker 1: I mean San Francisco golf world class, cal club, world class,

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Speaker 1: you know, Posa Tiempo, world class off course. But the

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Speaker 1: one that sticks with us is like, just like, the

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Speaker 1: one we talk about the most is Northwood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Northwood is really special. In twenty twelve, I took

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Speaker 2: two months off and I did a California you know,

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Speaker 2: just deep dive and I visited something like sixty seven

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Speaker 2: clubs in two months, and Northwood up there, literally no

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Speaker 2: one ever spoke about it, and the only reason I

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Speaker 2: knew about it was because it was had Mackenzie's name attached.

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Speaker 2: And I literally, I mean I get chills right now.

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Speaker 2: The hair are standing up on the back of my neck.

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Speaker 2: How good Northwood is. And you know, and then there's

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Speaker 2: like Etna springs up there, which is great.

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Speaker 1: What it closed though.

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Speaker 2: I know it or is closing or has closed. But

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Speaker 2: that was really cool with Doak and George Waters and

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Speaker 2: Kyle Franz did up there. That was really inspiring. And

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Speaker 2: oh but yeah Northwood, who.

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Speaker 1: With those bunkers just sitting there. I mean, like, how

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Speaker 1: much would it cost to put those bunkers back since

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Speaker 1: they're just kind of grassed over? Like I always I

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Speaker 1: always have wondered about that, like what, you know, being

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Speaker 1: an architect, what do you think like just a general

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Speaker 1: cost for putting that stuff back and time and materials

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Speaker 1: so would be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Andy, that's a great question. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's so many courses like this. You know down here

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Speaker 2: south of Chicago, Kankakey Elks, you know the same thing.

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Speaker 2: There are almost trees, you know, sitting in existing bunkers

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Speaker 2: and saying same with out there at Northwood and maybe Wakanda.

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Speaker 2: You know in Iowa, you walk around Wakanda and you're like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this Langford and Moreau. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: bunkers are sitting out there in the woods and it's

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Speaker 2: just it's unbelievable, you know, all this stuff is sitting

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Speaker 2: out there. Same with Northwood. You know those sequoias though,

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Speaker 2: are a little larger there. But cost I guess really

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Speaker 2: you would just be probably taking out six to eight

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Speaker 2: inches of top soil on the bottom of those bunkers,

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Speaker 2: putting drainage in, and then putting five inches of compacted

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Speaker 2: sandback sand is expensive depending on you know, what kind

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Speaker 2: of scene and you're getting, but really, you know, the

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Speaker 2: shaping would be very minimal, you know, just a little

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Speaker 2: bit of regrassing, you know, drainage and sand.

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Speaker 1: So sixty seven clubs and courses in two months, what

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Speaker 1: was your outside of Northwood? Your your best find in

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Speaker 1: California that might not get talked about enough.

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Speaker 2: Pacific Grove is really really special. You know. Monterey sure

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Speaker 2: gets a lot of love now, but maybe in twenty

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Speaker 2: twelve when I was out there, I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of guys didn't understand how great Mike strands you know,

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Speaker 2: vision artistry was so when I was visiting the shore,

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Speaker 2: I was really blown away by his artistry. Yes, San

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Speaker 2: Francisco golf is really really good, so good. Gosh, col Club, though,

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Speaker 2: I was really just blown away. You know. Everybody's you know,

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Speaker 2: talked about Kyle Club, but you know, like that seventh hole,

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Speaker 2: I think it is the boomerang part four that they add,

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Speaker 2: you know, that still felt really mackenzie esque. And the

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Speaker 2: work by George Waters and Kyle on those bunkers, you know,

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Speaker 2: for Kyle was really cool. But I think Cal Club

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Speaker 2: blew me away. You know, it was so good and

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Speaker 2: so you know, it was so close to the other ones.

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Speaker 1: I think all the little details at Cal Club let's

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Speaker 1: make it so good, and just the way it plays,

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Speaker 1: also getting the fescue in there and getting it playing

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Speaker 1: bounty and firm and fast, which is so rare for

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Speaker 1: that area.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, super firm, super firm, super fast. You know the land,

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Speaker 2: the land has that charm back. You know, the ground

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Speaker 2: is alive.

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Speaker 1: Bobby Jones played the am out in California and that's

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Speaker 1: where he started ran into Mackenzie. And had it not

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Speaker 1: been for that, it was believed that Ross was going

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Speaker 1: to be the guy that did Augusta National. Correct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he and Ross were buddies, you know, from his

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Speaker 2: time at east Lake and all that. Ross was at

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Speaker 2: east Lake in nineteen thirteen and Bobby Jones grew up

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Speaker 2: on the course, so really all he knew was east Lake.

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Speaker 2: And then Ross did in nineteen twenty six or seven

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Speaker 2: he built Highlands Golf Club, which was Bobby Jones' is

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Speaker 2: really like Mountain Golf Course and so, which still exists

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Speaker 2: pretty much in its exact state. And so I think

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Speaker 2: Ross had it. You know, Ross probably had you know,

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Speaker 2: Augusta was what nineteen thirty nineteen thirty one, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: he fell in love with mackenzie out in Cyprus Point

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Speaker 2: and all that.

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Speaker 1: What do you think a Ross designed how would it

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Speaker 1: differ from the Mackenzie designed? I guess the National.

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Speaker 2: You know, they probably would have had some of the

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Speaker 2: same routing. You know, the routing is so good at Augusta,

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Speaker 2: the way he utilized those creeks and the you know,

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Speaker 2: the ski slope on ten going down there and eleven

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Speaker 2: and twelve, how twelve so underrated, and so the routing

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Speaker 2: probably would have been pretty similar. But you know McKenzie's

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Speaker 2: flair for the extravagant and you know the buried elephants

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Speaker 2: at Augusta which have been softened over the years, which

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Speaker 2: is sad to see. But you know, I mean Mackenzie,

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Speaker 2: those old Boomerang greens, like like, gosh, what is it?

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Speaker 2: It was? I think nine, you know, nine was pretty

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Speaker 2: much almost a boomerang green which been which has been

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Speaker 2: totally changed. But you go at the Gusta like number one.

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Speaker 2: Number one's green might be the best green out there,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's like beat you in the face

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Speaker 2: when you when you show up, you know, you hit

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Speaker 2: it out there, and then you get to one and

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Speaker 2: you're like, holy smokes, what am I in for? And

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Speaker 2: so that hell and yeah, that Plateau green. But no,

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Speaker 2: I think, uh, I think Ross would have really done

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Speaker 2: well there. But it's pretty cool, you know Mackenzie. He

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Speaker 2: was on such a run there. I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: look at the top five in the world and you

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Speaker 2: have you know, if you had you know, I've heard

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Speaker 2: Doolks say in the past when I was at Royal

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Speaker 2: Melbourne two years ago, I think that composite course might

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Speaker 2: be the best course in the world. You know, pv

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Speaker 2: Okay Pine Valley. But the composite course at Royal Melbourne

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Speaker 2: is so good when you take a couple of those

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Speaker 2: holes from the East and put them in with the

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Speaker 2: west down there, and then he has obviously at Cyper's point,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, it's unbelievable. You know, the inland

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Speaker 2: holes are so good there and that's what makes it

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Speaker 2: so good.

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Speaker 1: Now I got to play the Jockey Club and Argentina

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Speaker 1: years ago. Like I went to Argentina with my now

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Speaker 1: wife and we were visiting her friend and it just

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Speaker 1: happened her friend was dating a member of the Jockey

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Speaker 1: Club and he's like, do you want to play him? Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to, yeah, because like I was, I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. I was like, I got to try

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Speaker 1: and find a way onto this place and it just

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Speaker 1: turned out it worked out. But like you think about Mackenzie,

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Speaker 1: and he designed arguably the greatest course on almost you

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Speaker 1: could some of his courses in the UK four different continents.

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Speaker 1: You know, he had a course that was in the

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Speaker 1: conversation for the greatest golf course and on four continents,

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Speaker 1: which is it's mind boggling, Yeah, and probably three for sure, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it's he's something that everybody kind of always says

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Speaker 1: that he's the best, but it's it's tough to imagine,

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Speaker 1: especially given the time. And but he also had great associates.

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Speaker 2: It goes to show, Yeah, Mick Morecambe down and you know,

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Speaker 2: down in Australia, he was really his right hand man.

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Speaker 2: When when Mackenzie went down in Australia, you know, he

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Speaker 2: obviously got together with those superintendents down there, Alex Russell

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Speaker 2: and and Mick Morcomb, and he taught Mick everything, you know,

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Speaker 2: and just a whirl win I think sixty days or so.

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Speaker 2: And and Tom Doak would know better than I would

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Speaker 2: because he's consulting down there. But yeah, and then he

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Speaker 2: kind of showed him his style down there and built

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Speaker 2: the bunkers and this and that. Hey, this one looking

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Speaker 2: for and then those guys ran with it and they

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Speaker 2: really I mean, gosh, you go to you know, like

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Speaker 2: Royal Adelaide and stuff like that. That place is divine.

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Speaker 2: Kingston Heath, I mean that.

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Speaker 1: Stuff first out in Karen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's really cool too. And nobody really makes

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Speaker 2: that trek because it's eight hours from Melbourne, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's a brutal drive. But that's really really underrated

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Speaker 2: nobody really sees that though.

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Speaker 1: With Ross, what would you consider as his most underappreciated skill.

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Speaker 2: Probably his most underrated skill. You know, everybody talks about

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Speaker 2: his routings, and his routings are just so fundamentally strong,

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Speaker 2: you know, his routings are just unbelievable. Is his skill

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Speaker 2: probably was showing up, you know. And I've read so

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Speaker 2: many of his site notes from Barton Hills and all

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Speaker 2: over in America where he literally would would write to

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Speaker 2: his daughter Lilian. Then it would be October first, they say,

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Speaker 2: dearest Lillian, you know your birthday's October twenty sixth. I

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Speaker 2: will be back, you know, in Pinehurst for your birthday. Okay,

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Speaker 2: October first, I'm going to take the train from Pinehurst

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Speaker 2: to d C. And then I'm in DC for three

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Speaker 2: days and I'm at Washington Golf and this and that,

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Speaker 2: then Congressional and then I'm going in Chevy Chase. And

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Speaker 2: then October second, Lillian, I'll be in Philadelphia and I'll

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Speaker 2: be at loulu and Ironomank and then I'm going up

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Speaker 2: to New York. And he would literally write in this

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Speaker 2: letter to her his travel you know, for the month

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Speaker 2: of October, and say in nineteen twenty seven, and it

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Speaker 2: would literally stop you know, d C Philly, New York,

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Speaker 2: and then he'd go up to Boston and they'd take

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Speaker 2: the train to the Rochester and visit Aronda Couiter Monroe,

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Speaker 2: and then he'd go to Detroit and then over to

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Speaker 2: Chicago and then in Minneapolis, and so then he'd come

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Speaker 2: back and so in you know, twenty seven days, he'd

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Speaker 2: be back to Pinehurst and he'd visit forty six golf courses.

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Speaker 2: You know, like in one day in Detroit, he was

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Speaker 2: at Western Golf in the morning, and then he's he

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Speaker 2: was on his way to Chicago and stopped in at

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Speaker 2: Barton Hills because the train went right by Barton Hills

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Speaker 2: and he just showed up at two pm and went

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Speaker 2: around the golf course. And luckily the secretary took notes

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Speaker 2: from that day. It was like October, you know, twentieth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five, and the have his site notes and

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Speaker 2: it's like Donald Ross showed up and went around and

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Speaker 2: wanted the four bunkers deeper, and you know, he was

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Speaker 2: really happy with this and this, but he wanted to

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Speaker 2: change one of the greens and then change the t's here,

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Speaker 2: and it was just like so interesting to hear while

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Speaker 2: you know, he just popped in on his way to Chicago.

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Speaker 2: But long winded, you know, sorry to go on a

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Speaker 2: long diatribe. To get back to your question. What was

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Speaker 2: maybe his most underrated skill was how did he keep

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Speaker 2: all these golf courses in his brain and keep them

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Speaker 2: all you know, I don't know alphabetized them or what,

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Speaker 2: but how do you okay, how do you know like

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Speaker 2: Barton Hill's this green is supposed to be over here

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Speaker 2: and this and that when you just show up and

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Speaker 2: then you're on your way to Chicago and you've just

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Speaker 2: visited forty two golf courses in a month, and you've

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Speaker 2: gave directions to each one about what they should do

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Speaker 2: with this, and you know, and he was so good

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Speaker 2: with agronomy and grass types and soils, and he worked

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Speaker 2: in so many different you know, like Northland up in

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Speaker 2: Duluth as literally the worst red clay I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: And then conversely, you go out to Portland, Maine and

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Speaker 2: it's beautiful sand and and you go down the Pinehurst

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Speaker 2: and it's totally different as well. And so he had

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Speaker 2: to be so agronically, you know, agronomically sound, giving advice

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Speaker 2: to all these different clubs in different climates and know

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Speaker 2: all the seasons, and you should plant here at Monroe,

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Speaker 2: he gave directions that you should plant by August first,

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Speaker 2: so these greens are grown in by next spring and

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Speaker 2: you can open up the golf course. And it's like,

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Speaker 2: it's just that's just I think. You know his knowledge,

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Speaker 2: his I you know, his itinerary, and the way he

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Speaker 2: travel was it's just mind boggling. Now where we fly

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Speaker 2: from the you know, club, the club, and I might

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Speaker 2: visit fifteen clubs in a month or twenty clubs in

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Speaker 2: a month. But I get home and I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: what did I tell these guys? Okay this okay, boom boom.

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Speaker 2: It's really tough. And he was doing that on a

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Speaker 2: much larger scale.

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Speaker 1: He had to have a photographic memory and and you

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Speaker 1: look past you know the architecture and the agronomy and knowledge.

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Speaker 1: But he also was like a master club maker. He

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Speaker 1: was a he had high finishes in the US opened,

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Speaker 1: the British Open, or the Open Championship. It's uh and

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Speaker 1: it's crazy to think, like this guy is probably the

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Speaker 1: most well rounded, most versed man ever in the history

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Speaker 1: of golf.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then Andy to even top that off. He

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Speaker 2: was affluent and could mix, you know, with high society

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Speaker 2: down in Pinehurst and shake hands and and speak eloquently,

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Speaker 2: you know. And he only had a eighth grade education

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Speaker 2: and he was you know, his father he was a

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Speaker 2: carpenter and everything in Dornick. And you know where did

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Speaker 2: he get you know, he must have been a genius.

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Speaker 2: And so when Ron Pritchert and I have these discussions,

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Speaker 2: we're like, this guy had to be his IQ had

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Speaker 2: to be through the roof. But to have all these

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Speaker 2: all these assets, you know, and capabilities of being able

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Speaker 2: to work with the foreman out out in the you know,

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Speaker 2: out in the field and explain what he wanted and

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Speaker 2: get what he wanted built, and then go in and

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Speaker 2: speak with the gentleman, you know. Like one of his

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Speaker 2: best friends was mister Ford. You know, he got all

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Speaker 2: that work in Detroit because mister Ford would come down

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Speaker 2: to Pinehurst and he was like, oh, you're the man

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Speaker 2: down a Pinehurst, you know, Donald, we need you. We

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Speaker 2: need golf courses in Detroit. Same with the White Bear

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Speaker 2: yacht family up in Minnesota. That's how he got all

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Speaker 2: his Minnesota work. That was his connection. And so in

336
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Speaker 2: nineteen you know, early nineteen twelve, thirteen, fourteen fifteen, he

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Speaker 2: was going up there every summer to visit the family

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Speaker 2: from the White Bear Yacht Club. And that's how he

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Speaker 2: got Cedar Rapids in nineteen fifteen, and that's how he

340
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Speaker 2: went to Minnicotta, and then he got Woodhill and then

341
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Speaker 2: he got Northland and interlocking, and so his connections were,

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Speaker 2: you know, unbelievable. And so this gentleman was you know,

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Speaker 2: just basic education, you know, and he comes over, he

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Speaker 2: emigrates in eighteen ninety nine, and then somehow his brand,

345
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Speaker 2: you know, he built himself from zero. I mean I

346
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Speaker 2: remember reading you know, he hardly had enough money to

347
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Speaker 2: get out to Oakley Golf Club when he first arrived,

348
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Speaker 2: and you know, off the ship he basically walked the

349
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Speaker 2: seven miles because he couldn't take the train car because

350
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Speaker 2: he didn't have enough money, you know. And then he

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Speaker 2: built an empire where he at one point had two

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Speaker 2: thousand guys employed, you know, in nineteen twenty eight before

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Speaker 2: the stock market crash. And I mean I just don't

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Speaker 2: know how he had the capacity, you know, to to

355
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Speaker 2: keep everything wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't imagine he slept that much.

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Speaker 2: No, No, but you know the only thing that I

358
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Speaker 2: want to do. Want to say though, is when you're

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Speaker 2: taking train, you know, when you're taking train travel, it's

360
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Speaker 2: a lot different because what would happen is, you know,

361
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Speaker 2: when he when his notes from clubs is you know,

362
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Speaker 2: somebody would pick him up at the train stop and

363
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Speaker 2: then they would take him directly to the golf course.

364
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Speaker 2: And so he never really drove, and so that time

365
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Speaker 2: he had all this time to you know, okay, what's

366
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Speaker 2: your land, like, what's this? Okay, this is where we're going,

367
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,239
Speaker 2: and then he would have dinner and everything like that,

368
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Speaker 2: and he'd have his site notes from the day. Then

369
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Speaker 2: he'd get on the train and he'd have an hour two, three,

370
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Speaker 2: four five where he could write down all his site

371
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Speaker 2: notes and do his whole by whole drawings he wanted

372
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Speaker 2: to do. The master plans. He'd send them down to

373
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Speaker 2: or send them up to Boston to Walter Irving Johnson,

374
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Speaker 2: who would delicately, you know, handcraft these beautiful master plans

375
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Speaker 2: and ink them on linen. But Ross would send his

376
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Speaker 2: whole by whole master plan or hole by whole you know,

377
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,639
Speaker 2: drawings with site notes and you know about the character

378
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: of the topography, this and that, but he had all

379
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Speaker 2: this time on the train to decipher that and knock

380
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Speaker 2: out all the work. You know, say he was at

381
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Speaker 2: Hinsdale and you know, then going up to oak Park

382
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 2: or Evanston, you know, that night he would just write

383
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 2: everything down about Hinsdale and then clear that off his book,

384
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 2: then go to oak Park, you know, and then knock

385
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Speaker 2: out oak Park for the day and knock out all

386
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Speaker 2: those drawings that night. And I think that was really

387
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Speaker 2: really special.

388
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Speaker 1: That's with technology today. I think it almost makes it harder.

389
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Speaker 2: A lot of times, exactly all the emails and all

390
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 2: the calls, you know, Like we were walking around earlier

391
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,199
Speaker 2: and I have nine missed calls and four emails and

392
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Speaker 2: it's nine forty five this morning.

393
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Speaker 1: You know, it's like a lot of times the emails

394
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 1: like they aren't like fast to get done. It takes

395
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 1: a long time to answer a lot of these questions.

396
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, it's like writing. Sometimes I

397
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,160
Speaker 1: feel like if I spend an afternoon writing emails back,

398
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: it's like I've written like a whole article. It's like,

399
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Speaker 1: I mean, and then one technology I'm excited for is

400
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Speaker 1: a drivable car.

401
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 2: Yes, that'll be almost like we've just talked about where

402
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 2: ross was being driven around everywhere and sitting in a

403
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Speaker 2: you know, sitting in a train car. You know.

404
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 1: So, so what you've seen twenty five hundred golf courses

405
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Speaker 1: to date, you've seen all these ross courses. What ross

406
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: courses are you most excited to see that you haven't

407
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: seen yet?

408
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 2: Wow, that's that's a tough one. Really. The ones I

409
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 2: haven't seen are the tough ones. Just to get to,

410
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 2: like BAMF. You know, there's not much ross left at BAMF,

411
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 2: but I want to get up there anyway because he

412
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 2: was there. Gosh, what do I have? I have the

413
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 2: one in Missouri? Yeah, I have, like the one in

414
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: Kansas called Shawnee. I have Hillcrest, French Lick. I haven't

415
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 2: seen a bunch in Florida. You know. Florida is so

416
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: tough to get down to because it's like in the wintertime,

417
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 2: everyone is down there. And that's my you know, from

418
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 2: from Christmas until really February first or March first is

419
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 2: my kind of time to get away. Go to California,

420
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: go to Australia, New Zealand, go to Europe and see everything,

421
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 2: But it's really hard to get to Florida because everyone's

422
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 2: down there. And then the summer, I'm really busy, and

423
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 2: so it's one hundred degrees down there, and nobody wants

424
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: to be down there. So I literally have, out of

425
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: the thirty golf courses, you know, thirty more Ross I

426
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 2: have to see, you know, probably twenty or in Florida.

427
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 2: And then the other thing is, I'm not really excited

428
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 2: to see this stuff in Florida because it's so flat.

429
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 2: The land is devoid of so much character.

430
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it's been killed too right

431
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: over time with you know, so many architects work down

432
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: in Florida.

433
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything's you know, cyclical down there. It's like, oh,

434
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: it's ten years later, we need to blow up our

435
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: golf course. And so I've seen Seminole, and I've seen

436
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: Sarah Bay and Tim Aquana and some of the good ones.

437
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 2: But I just right now, I don't have the urge

438
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: to see the rest of that, you know, I want

439
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 2: to finish off the list. And I thought I was

440
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 2: going to be the first guy to see every Donald

441
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: Ross course, but obviously there's a guy from the Donald

442
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: Ross Society beat me out. For that, and I sent

443
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 2: him a nice email. I was like, man, how did

444
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: you get to all these? Like there's some that are brutal,

445
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: you know, there are some uh, you know way out

446
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: in Nova Scotia and Halifax and stuff, Brightwood and Liverpool,

447
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 2: you know, White Point which is way down you know,

448
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia, And I've made the rise up there and

449
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 2: tried to see him all but you know, and then

450
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: I have a couple, you know, up in northern New Hampshire.

451
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: After see, I've seen everyone in Maine, everyone in New York,

452
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 2: everything in Pennsylvania.

453
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: What are the what's your top five?

454
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: Who? You know? Top five probably would be I mean

455
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: it was that's really really hard. But Glenn's Falls is

456
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: really really good up in New York. I mean it's

457
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 2: it's really good. And then right down the road in Rome,

458
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: New York, there is to Usica, which is literally like

459
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: going back in time and seeing, you know, what Ross

460
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: would have done. He spent so much time there because

461
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: he had a girlfriend there, Florence Blackinton, and it was

462
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 2: after his first wife, Susie died in nineteen twenty one,

463
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: so he was really up there in like twenty two

464
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: twenty three. A lot and I think he had a

465
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 2: really big hand there with the Walter p Hatch and

466
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: Walter be Hatch was so so so talented hit one

467
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: of his associates. Because Walter Behatch built Glenn's Falls, he

468
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 2: built to Uzuka. You know some other ones that you

469
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: know something that's so underrated that nobody knows about. It's

470
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: called Thendara. Thendara is up in the Adirondacks. It's like

471
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 2: literally almost like a rainer golf course. It's so bold.

472
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: You know, there's like a box car on the ninth green,

473
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: buried in the green where it's literally raised four feet

474
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: above the rest of the putting service. It's unbelievable. But

475
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: no wanna moist it. The greens that want to moist it.

476
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: Every single one has character. There's not one flat green

477
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: there and so wanta moist It is cool and small

478
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: and the properties, you know, it's pretty tame, but wana

479
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: moist of the greens are unparalleled for a ross golf course.

480
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: And then you have Essex County, I mean the Crown Jewel.

481
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: He spent so much time there. And then you know

482
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: Ironomic is really special. You know that was JB McGovern's

483
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 2: home course. He was the green chair there and built it.

484
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: And that's why the greens have so much character at

485
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: ironom Ing, and Ironiming is like everything about is about

486
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: scale Ironoming. You know, the property is big, the clubhouse

487
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 2: is big. The bunkering was big on the master plan

488
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: that Ross drew, you know, and JB McGovern had a

489
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 2: proclivity to build small bunkers. And then that's what gil

490
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: Han's just put back is all JB's one hundred and

491
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: eighty eight bunkers or whatever that he split. He would

492
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: split Ross's big bunkers in the small bunkers. But you

493
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: know in Oakland Hills, Oakland Hills is really great and

494
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: Northland the one, you know, you said five, I probably

495
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 2: listened six or seven because I can't stop.

496
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: That's fine, I've got I don't really like it.

497
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 2: We're just yeah, we're just gonna keep moving, you know.

498
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: But Northland might be one of the better routings and

499
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 2: we're I've been so fortunate to work with Ron Pritchard

500
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 2: on that, you know, and I'm actually going back in

501
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks to you know, to restore some

502
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: more holes. But the it's sitting on Lake Superior, and

503
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 2: it's on the side of this huge block, and Lake

504
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: Superior literally looks like an ocean, and so it is

505
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: an Minnesota golf course, but it feels like you're in

506
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: California or on the Atlantic in Maine, and so literally

507
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: you have cliffhanger greens that look like the waters right

508
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: behind the green. And so Northland is unbelievably special and

509
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: it's finally getting some recognition. And you know, that's one

510
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: golf course though. That Ron Pritchard, I feel like he's

511
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 2: seen every ross court, you know, golf course there is.

512
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: He has stated to the membership that he thinks that

513
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: could be top forty in America and I'm I was

514
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: even like, whoa, Ron, you never give praise? You know?

515
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: That is that's pretty cool? And he's like, yeah, you know,

516
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: so when we talk about routings, that might be one

517
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: of the best ross routings there is because it climbs

518
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: this almost mountainlike terrain and then it loops all the

519
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: way back down to eighteen at the clubhouse, and so

520
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: nine is like the furthest part away. You know, it's

521
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: like a British Links kind of style routing. And so

522
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: he really went outside the box there and then it

523
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: took three years for that course to be built because

524
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: it's on such hard that red clay and the seasons

525
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: are so short, so they would build like six holes

526
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty five, six holes in nineteen twenty six,

527
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: and then six oles in nineteen twenty seven, and so

528
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: it literally his master plan is from you know, I

529
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: think it says nineteen twenty five on it, and it opened,

530
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, like July fourth, nineteen twenty seven. You know,

531
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: so it's pretty cool that it took that long. And

532
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: then the last one I want to mention a homer

533
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: for is mountain Ridge in New Jersey. Everyone talks about Plainfield,

534
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 2: everyone talks about Ironomy, you know, everybody talks about all

535
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: these other clubs in the Northeast, but nobody knows mountain Ridge.

536
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: Mountain Ridge has greens that are even cooler than Plainfield

537
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: and aronom and combined. Then it's a you know, it's

538
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 2: a smaller club, three inner members. They don't like their

539
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: name getting out much. But if you go to mountain Ridge,

540
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: it got golf digest restoration of the year I think

541
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven or twelve, and Ron I mean knocked

542
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: out of the ballpark. It's so cool. But you could

543
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: literally play golf at Somerset Hills with buddies and then

544
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: go up the plain field and you're like, guys, I'm

545
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: going to take you to Mountain Ridge and then you

546
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: go play mountain Ridge and they're all like, I've never heard,

547
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: I've never seen this. This place is epic. It's like,

548
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm a softye for Somerset Hills. It's

549
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: maybe my favorite. If I were to join anywhere but Bitterman,

550
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: where I play in Wilmington, Delawroyd I joined, you know,

551
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: if I ever had the privilege, you know, Somerset Hills

552
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: has a sweet spot in my heart. But mountain Ridge

553
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: is it's like this place that if you went and

554
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: played Andy, you'd be like, why does anybody talk about this?

555
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: But it is in the Golf Week top one hundred,

556
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: so they do get it.

557
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: So that's the best is finding those places that nobody

558
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: talks about you. So you grew up caddying at Ironomic.

559
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: How much of you know walking around that golf course

560
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: every day as a kid, do you think played a

561
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: role in you becoming a golf course architect?

562
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. I grew up playing Gap Golf

563
00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: Association Philadelphia with their junior tournaments in the late nineties

564
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: and early two thousands, and we would go play Huntington Valley, Maryon, Lancaster,

565
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: Aronomy Manufacturers, Lulu. I mean, the list goes on, you know,

566
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: Lehigh Saukin Valley, even Scrinton Country called the Scrintons unbelievable Travis, right, yeah,

567
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: and it's the greens are like the moon. You know.

568
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: Travis so underrated with his green building. But you know,

569
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: so I would play in Philly Cricket and Rolling Green

570
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: and Plymouth and all these flints, and so I saw,

571
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: you know, when I was eleven and twelve and thirteen, fourteen,

572
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: fifteen eighteen, I saw all these great golf courses. And

573
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: then I'd go back and play my municipal, you know,

574
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: public golf course that I grew up on, and I'd say, well,

575
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: this is very different. You know this, Why are my

576
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: greens so bland? And I go up to you know,

577
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: Marion and I put it off the green and it's

578
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: not because they're super fast, which they were, but the

579
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: contours are incredible, you know, and there's you know, the

580
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: routings are great. And so I had this great appreciation

581
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: from age, you know, seventeen of I was in a

582
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: special place. These are special golf courses, you know, catting

583
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: at Ironom and cattying at Wilmington Country Club, you know,

584
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: seeing great golf. And so when I was at cattying

585
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: at Ironomic, Ron Pritchard did the two thousand and two

586
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: restoration there and I think, you know, I think that

587
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: one golf digest restoration the year, I'm pretty sure. And

588
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: that literally spun the golf world, you know, in Philly

589
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: in the Northeast a little bit. I mean, Ron Pritcher's

590
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: his phone run off the hook after that, and that

591
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: led to him getting all these other unbelievable courses, you know,

592
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: Charlotte Country Club and the and some of the bigger

593
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: name clubs that he and I have worked with. But yeah,

594
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: I mean just caddying seeing how these guys were, you know,

595
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: utilizing these slopes on the putt and greens, and it

596
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: was just something different, you know. And Philly is such

597
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: a hotbed. I've been super blessed.

598
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh not last summer. The summer before I spent

599
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: two weeks out there. I got I've played in the

600
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: mid so I got to do a big tour and

601
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: then my buddy got married out there, so I spent

602
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: another week, and just two weeks was like just scratching

603
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: the surface. It's I mean, there's so many, so many

604
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: cool places to see, and it's it's definitely I think

605
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: it's the clear number two city in America for golf.

606
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know number two is hard for

607
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: me to say, but you know, New York Metro area

608
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: and Long Island, it's it's pretty hard to beat that.

609
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's a different conversation. If you split Long

610
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: Island off.

611
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: And right, you delete Long Island out of seen Philly

612
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: crushes you know, New York Metro I think, you know,

613
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: New North New Jersey and New York I think it

614
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: gets it. But then you get in Long Island and

615
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: you got the Garden Cities and the Shinnies out there

616
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: and the Atlantic and Maidstone and it can't compete.

617
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: You got like a place like Southampton, nobody mentioned, and

618
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: it's right next to National and it's so good, it's

619
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: so pure.

620
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so yeah, Long Island itself has thirty on

621
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: parallel golf and it's all sand, you know, the stuff

622
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: on the sand, the ball, you know, the grounds alive

623
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: that one, you know, the charm is back.

624
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that's the getting the ball bouncy again, the ball,

625
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: the bounce.

626
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: In the ground, the British Isles ground game took golf.

627
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: It's so you you've mentioned you worked for Ron Pritchard

628
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: a great deal. You've also worked for Keith Foster and

629
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: then Bill Kore and Ben Crenshaw. What what is if

630
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: you were going to say one thing that you've taken

631
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: from each guy is what they are just so great at?

632
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: What would it be?

633
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 2: So Keith taught me scale. You know, when I was

634
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 2: with Keith, we were doing Colonial Baltimore, five farms. I

635
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: was doing the plans for Philly cricket, plans for Moraine.

636
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: We were doing fresh Meadow up in Lake Success, New York,

637
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: up on Long Island, Orchard Lake. We were doing that.

638
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: And so you would walk Orchard Lake with all these

639
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: weeping willows and all these smallways, and He's say, Tyler,

640
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: you need to get back to Allison scale. You know,

641
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: big bunkers, big greens, big fairways, you know, big roles

642
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: of the land. The roles of the land at Orchard

643
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: Lak are really incredible, you know, expose the depography. And

644
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: so Keith taught me scale and you know, really how

645
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: to run a business, how to be an architect, and

646
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: how it's not just you're not just an artist. You know,

647
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: you're not just some guy who shows up. You know.

648
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: Keith is so good at talking the membership, educating the membership,

649
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: you know, sitting down and working through the worst parts

650
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: of a restoration or renovation, you know, working with a

651
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: contractor in the field, beating the best product out of

652
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: that contractor. Every contractor wants to show up and they

653
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: want to be in and out, you know, in three

654
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: months and make a ton of money. And that's their goal.

655
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: And your goal as the architect and for the club

656
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: and the honor of the club and honor of the

657
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: client is to make enduring work, which Keith you know,

658
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: talks about a lot. You want that work to last

659
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: for fifty to one hundred year like Ross and all

660
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: these great old clubs. You don't want to be some

661
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: architect that comes in in the eighties and the next thing,

662
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: you know, in twelve years, it's being blown up because

663
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: that work didn't endure, you know, it wasn't great and lasting.

664
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: And so Keith taught me that, you know, to really

665
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: take a critical eye. You know, Tyler, your eye. Your

666
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: eye is the most valuable asset you have. And you

667
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: can go around with that Green committee and the superintendent

668
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: and the contractor and you can work out every fine detail.

669
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: You know. Oh, you know this back corner of this

670
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: putting service is just off a little bit. Let's beat

671
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: that down half an inch. Hey, this bunker, you know,

672
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: I want this flashed a little more because I want

673
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 2: to see a ribin of sand from two hundred yards away.

674
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want that high lip in front

675
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: of the bunker to block the viewport into that sayand

676
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: so Keith really taught me about you know that A

677
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: couple of things here obviously, Bill Corr. Same thing at

678
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: Dormy Club when I was living with Keith reb and

679
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: working with jimbo Wright and Jeff Bradley, who are like

680
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: the most talented guys in the industry. You know, I work,

681
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: I did all the bunker work with Jeff Bradley, and

682
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: so I'd be in the bunkers every day. And then

683
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 2: I did a lot of the peripheral work, and Keith

684
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: red was doing the fairway grading and ts and and

685
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: jimbo Wright did the bunkers and so I was mainly

686
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: with Jeff Bradley every day, and Jeff Bradley taught me

687
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: more about artistry and hey, like, look, it's got to

688
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: be in the right spot. The bunker's got to be

689
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: located properly, but it's got to be aesthetically pleasing fit

690
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: into the land naturally, almost like that mackenzie style, you know, bunkering.

691
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: And so I was in there with a shovel every

692
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: day with Jeff and he's still one of these one

693
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 2: of my best buddies in the industry to this day.

694
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: And Bill cor would come out and say, Tyler, I

695
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: don't want to see any beach balls over there, you know,

696
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: And and you know, with his funny you know, his

697
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: cool Texas twang a little bit, and and because I would,

698
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: you know, I was such a novice in oh six

699
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: oh seven, I guess twelve years.

700
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: Ago when one of the voicemails I'll never delete from

701
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: my phone was Bill Corkan Andy, this is Bill Core.

702
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: It's just the way his voice is.

703
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 2: It's great, but he's so you know, he's so mild

704
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 2: tempered and ben and but they taught me about look

705
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: the periphery, everything matters, you know, dormy. We worked so

706
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 2: hard on the peripheral stuff. You know. It wasn't just

707
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: about the greens and the tea's and the bunkers that

708
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: get so much attention. It was about every fine detail.

709
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: And Bill wanted you know, he beat me down about

710
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: this bump, you know, and I thought I knocked it

711
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: out of the ballpark, and he'd be like, make it

712
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: more weathered, make it more natural, you know. And then

713
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 2: Bill also taught me that, you know, I was an

714
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: abrasive twenty three year old working with them their first

715
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 2: intern ever maybe you know, since you know, up until

716
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: the new guys who have started working with them, but

717
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: this was twelve years ago, and all the guys were like,

718
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: how did you How did you get on this job

719
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: with us? I wrote a letter to Bill core and

720
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: he actually called me. You know, I was like the

721
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: first intern they had, you know, Jeff Bradley and those

722
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: guys were like who are you and why are you here?

723
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: And so they just kind of brought me under the wing.

724
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: And but but Bill and Ben are so they're so

725
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: just generous, kind, you know, mild tempered. I learned from

726
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 2: them that you have to you know, like Bill Corer

727
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: would would always say your name, Well, Tyler, I think

728
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: we should do this. You know, hey, Andy, what do

729
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: you think about this? You know, he always used your

730
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: name through your interjected your name to make you feel

731
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: a part of the conversation. And that's one thing that's

732
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: maybe way overlooked, but it's just, you know, it's like

733
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: a life lesson really, you know, treat your client, treat

734
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: your friends, treat everybody the same, you know, interject them

735
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: into the conversation and you're you're all looking for the

736
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: best product here. And so Bill Bill Cour's you know, unbelievable.

737
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: He's like the father of you know, architecture right now.

738
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: And then lastly, uh Ron Pritchard is the consummate artist.

739
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: And he taught me that look, you know, Ross never

740
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: moved one tablespoon or teaspoon more than they had to.

741
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 2: The economy of golf course can instruction was so tough,

742
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 2: you know, in the twenties, with teams of horses and scoops.

743
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: You know, everything was so so much more arduous than

744
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 2: it is now. And he taught me that, look, look

745
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 2: they didn't put all that fat around that green. That

746
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: green was perched up and it fell right off from

747
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: the green putting surface. There wasn't all this blown up

748
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: extra mass because they didn't have the you know, they

749
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: didn't have the tools to move that dirt. And so Tyler,

750
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: when you're moving this dirt, or when you're building a

751
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 2: bunker or tee, think really really carefully about why you're

752
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 2: putting the dirt there, or why you're stripping the dirt

753
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: away from there. You know, every piece matter, every little morsel.

754
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: And so he really opened up my eyes to the

755
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: phill pads being perched and you know, dirt movement through

756
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: a sight, you know, horizon lines. You know, He's constantly

757
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 2: still showing me, Tyler, look at Ross's notes. Here cut

758
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: the bunker one and a half feet for the floor,

759
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 2: and Phil three and a half feet for the shoulders. Aka,

760
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: you're in the bunker, you're four and a half feet

761
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: below those shoulders. Then you add in sand, so you're

762
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: four feet below those shoulders. You know, so that's something

763
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: like the details and the Ross notes. You know that

764
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,959
Speaker 2: Ron just has beaten into my brain that so many

765
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: guys don't, I don't think understand, you know, like it's

766
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: supposed to be a hazard, it's supposed to be a

767
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 2: half stroke penalty. You're not supposed to reach the green.

768
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: Sometimes from one hundred and eighty yards inside his bunker.

769
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: Ross had a four foot burm. You're four and a

770
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: half foot burm, you know, face bunker. So if you

771
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: can't reach the green, you shouldn't have hit it in

772
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: this hazard. So Ron is such a you know, historian,

773
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: and such a guy who's you know, he's almost in

774
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: the wrong era, you know, he deserves to be around

775
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty and you're.

776
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: One of the younger architects. What's the biggest challenge.

777
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: Well, well, you know, exposure, you know one. I mean,

778
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: I've never had the stomach for self promotion, you know,

779
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: so I really have never had a website until this

780
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: past year, or you know, Ron Pritcher's never had a website,

781
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: and so exposure a lot, you know, a lot of

782
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: the Ross guys know us, a lot of Ross clubs

783
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 2: know us or me. But I've kind of just taken

784
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: this slow you know, slow stare, you know, stairways, you know,

785
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: slow climb, you know, working with Keith for a couple

786
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: of years back in the mid two thousands, working with

787
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: Coren Crenshaw, working with Ron Pritchard, I've tried to slowly

788
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: build my brand, you know, build who I am. You know,

789
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: I'm like a design build guy, and I want to be,

790
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: you know, and build my company like Gill Hants where

791
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: I can come in and I can shape that green

792
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: for you. You know, I can shape the bunkers for you.

793
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: And you know, I've been shaping twelve years now. And

794
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: I feel really really confident that I can come into

795
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: any club and tell them this is exactly what's going

796
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: to cost, and I'm going to you know, I can

797
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: point to everything. You know, I can really feel really

798
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 2: confident about, you know, my abilities and all that. And

799
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 2: but to answer your question, I think, you know, I'll

800
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: continue to get more visibility and higher you know, bigger projects,

801
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,879
Speaker 2: you know, the one like you know. The one thing

802
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: that's tough right now is I've interviewed at Sciota and

803
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: some big, big time clubs, and I've just come up

804
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 2: short because I'm thirty two, thirty three, Whereas somebody who's

805
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 2: in their mid forties or fifties, you know, appeases to

806
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: them a little bit more because that's what the committee,

807
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: that's what their age is.

808
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 1: And it's a fascinating thing to me, is how golf

809
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: course architects rarely retire.

810
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: Right, right, you know we hit our stride from you know,

811
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: thirty or thirty five or forty to sixty five to

812
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: seventy to seventy five and so into their eighties, right

813
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 2: Peter Die you know, gosh, I think he's ninety two now, yeah,

814
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: you know, And but no, it's really just it's really

815
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 2: tough going up against a fifty nine year old, you know,

816
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: Like if I go up against Gill at Aeronomy, you know,

817
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: it's like, how am I supposed to retain Ironomic? It's

818
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: pretty impossible, you know. So you know, but I've been

819
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: fortunate to get some top one hunder clubs like Monroe.

820
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: You know, they're a new client of mine. Cedar Rapids

821
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: just got in the top one hundred and ninety two.

822
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: You know, Northland hopefully will be in the top one

823
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: hundred soon.

824
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: Skokey Beverly, that's uh so we're we're sitting here in

825
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: Beverly in the clubhouse Great Chicago down Ross Course, and

826
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: you've been doing work with x More and Skokee and

827
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: Evanston in the area, and we talked a little bit

828
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: about golf scenes, like how do you feel Chicago stacks

829
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: up with Philly and New York and Long Island and

830
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: San Francisco. You know, we'd kind of been touching the

831
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: major metro areas.

832
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: Right, No One. The one thing that you need for

833
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: great golf is land, you know. And the unfortunate part

834
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 2: with Chicago is it's so flat in so many areas.

835
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: And then you know the golf courses that stick out

836
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,240
Speaker 2: in Chicago obviously that we talked about earlier, Chicago Golf,

837
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 2: Shore Acres, all down, Beverly and Skokee, all five of

838
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: those courses have really great land in some part of

839
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: their proper. And even though you know, people may say, oh,

840
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 2: Shoreykers is pretty darn flat with one nine eighteen, but

841
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: the ravines are so on god, I mean there's so

842
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: they come into play so well, like rain Or routed

843
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: that thing so well. I think you ten eleven, twelve

844
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 2: twelve is epic. Thirteen fourteen.

845
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: The idea of him bypassing the lake, yea, going into

846
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: those ravines, like everybody's like, how is it not on

847
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: the lake is like, well, it's probably the one of

848
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: the greatest routings of all.

849
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 2: Time exactly exactly, So Chicago, it's just in my opinion

850
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 2: I've seen. I feel like every time I'm in Chicago,

851
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: I try to walk another golf course. And so yesterday

852
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: I went and saw three other golf courses, you know,

853
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 2: and and I have just a couple more on my

854
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: radar left to sea. But it's just you're just so

855
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: disappointed when you go onto a golf course and you're like, oh,

856
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: the land is so devoid a character. You know, I

857
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 2: wish there were there was more character. And one thing

858
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: that I won't go too far down the rabbit hole though,

859
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: is Chicago was early Ross, so from like Hinsdale in

860
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: nineteen thirteen to Beverly in nineteen nineteen. The lagrange Lagrange

861
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: was probably one of his last in nineteen twenty one.

862
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: So in eight years there from nineteen thirteen and nineteen

863
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: twenty one, Ross, did I think ten golf courses toned. Yeah.

864
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: And the only one knock is that there's a lot

865
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: of back to front greens, you know, not a lot

866
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 2: of them have supreme amounts of character. Because it was

867
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 2: early Ross. It was teens, you know, Ross really started

868
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: interjecting a lot of character and heavily bunkering his golf

869
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: courses more in the twenties because he was he was

870
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: you know, changing his practices and theories because the ball

871
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: was advancing and the you know, steel shafts were coming

872
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: into fruition in the late twenties, and so then he

873
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: started more heavily bunkering his fronts of greens and putting

874
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: more bunkers out there, and then adding more character into

875
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 2: putting services. So unfortunately for Chicago is it's early ross.

876
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: So a lot of them are pretty basic greens perched up,

877
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: still really solid routings, but flat, you know, like oak parks,

878
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,919
Speaker 2: pretty flat, you know, but these they got these great

879
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: perch screens, you know, and and h X more. You know,

880
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: it has a role in the land. There a little bit,

881
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: you know, a bluff where the clubhouse is, but it's

882
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 2: pretty flat, you know, Indian Hill, you know, pretty flat.

883
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: They have drainage problems, it's so flat. And uh, you know,

884
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: Hinsdale has some rolls out there. Lagrange has a few rolls.

885
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 2: But to to finish off what I was, you know,

886
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: getting at is, you know, Chicago is such a great city.

887
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite cities, and I live here tomorrow.

888
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: But it's just the golf is a little flat you know,

889
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 2: it's a little boring. Whereas you go to Philly and

890
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, the stuff's in your face. You

891
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: go to northern New Jersey, New York, it's in your face.

892
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 2: Boston really hilly. You know, California we just talked about

893
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: even in La with bel Air and those great ravines

894
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: and arroyos and you know, that thing's in on the

895
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 2: side of a mountain almost you know, in Beverly Hills

896
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 2: and and Riviera, you know with the golf you know,

897
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: clubhouse way up on there, and you know, like l

898
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 2: A CEC maybe one of the best restorations in the world.

899
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 2: You know that guilded out there. It's great property, you know.

900
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: And that's I always say Chicago, we we lack like

901
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: the star power of that. And really what it comes

902
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: down to his land, like we have so many great

903
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: like second tier golf courses, but we just don't have

904
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: like a plethora of top tier courses where like a

905
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 1: New York you know, you you go down the list

906
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: and you get to ten and you're still like this

907
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: world class golf course. We get to three two. But

908
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: I mean, so we're at Beverly and it's one of

909
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: the core it's obviously constricted by by being inside Chicago proper.

910
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you're in the hub. I always joke it's

911
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: the loudest golf course in the world. You got planes

912
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: flying over you. But it's also one of the most

913
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: unique in the sense of its history, the history of

914
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: the land. How do you approach a project like Beverly

915
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: where you have a rich championship history, Like, you know,

916
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: what are you looking at when you start to develop

917
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 1: a master plan?

918
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: What we look at, you know, is I came into

919
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 2: the clubhouse and I got together with Kirkspeth, the superintendent,

920
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: and I said, look, I need to get up in

921
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: the attic, you know, I need to get in the

922
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: clubhouse and find anything I can, you know, And like

923
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 2: Ron Pritchard, he's found old Ross master plans, Like he

924
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: found an old Ross plane at Country cub of Buffalo

925
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: that they never knew existed. And so he's found I

926
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: think four or five original Ross plans tucked away in

927
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 2: the attics and in old lockers. And so we first

928
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: tried to do that and try to find stuff that

929
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 2: maybe isn't around or even known, you know, like at

930
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: Mountain Lake, I found a nineteen thirty seven aerial on

931
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 2: the Florida University of Florida's historical database and they they

932
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 2: never had any aerials before nineteen fifty. And so it's

933
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: things like that where we really make our you know, value,

934
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: We bring our value where we try to find and

935
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: research all the old aerials, any photography, all the old

936
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 2: news clippings. And I have a couple of guys who

937
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: I work with who do a lot of research with me,

938
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 2: who helped me out. So we first tried to do

939
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: a research period and say, okay, what did it look like,

940
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: and then we try to get a timeline of you know, okay, Beverly.

941
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: Beverly was a Georgia O'Neil from nineteen oh eight, and

942
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: it's almost identically routed. Now, you know, Ross came in

943
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,479
Speaker 2: and just changed a few holes on the front nine.

944
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: The back nine is pretty much almost O'Neil from nineteen

945
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: oh eight. So when you see the nineteen oh eight

946
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 2: on logo, it's pretty much in nineteen oh eight golf course.

947
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: Ross came in nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen, and I have

948
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,280
Speaker 2: all the newspaper clippings, and so we show the club

949
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 2: the George O'Neil routing, and we show them the Ross

950
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: you know, changes in nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen. It opened

951
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen nineteen, and there's all these great newspaper articles

952
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: about those changes. He filled in a pond on fifteen

953
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: or on sixteen, and then he lowered the ridge on

954
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 2: eleven that we looked at this morning. He rebuilt a

955
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: couple you know, he rebuilt every green site. The George

956
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: O'Neal greens were very flat right on the ground, and

957
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: so Ross perched all the greens, and so he was

958
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: not very heavy handed in a routing sense, but in

959
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 2: an architectural sense, with adding the bunkers, perching the greens,

960
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: putting the character in the greens. So then we go

961
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: through and we try to unmask the layers. Okay, what okay,

962
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 2: nineteen oh eight we have that. Nineteen eighteen we have

963
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: what Ross did pretty much, you know, from the newspaper

964
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 2: articles and everything. Then we see, okay, nineteen thirty one,

965
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: we have all these great photos because they had the

966
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: US amateur that Francis. We went one and Bobby Jones

967
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 2: was here, everybody was here. We have all these incredible

968
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: photos from nineteen thirty one. But we do know from

969
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen to nineteen thirty one, some things changed. Chick

970
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: Evans was local great golfer, and he came in and

971
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: he had a proclivity where, you know, he loved tinkering

972
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: with bunkers and putting these little noses on all these bunkers.

973
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 2: So we see in the nineteen thirty one aerial that

974
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: they're start to become these noses in you know, ten

975
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: to fourteen of the bunkers where chick Evans was kind

976
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: of tinkering out here. So then we kind of okay,

977
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: we know what chick did. Then we see aerials from

978
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty nine. We have forty nine, fifty nine, seventy one,

979
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: you know, all the way up to eighty five. And

980
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: then now then the trees started, you know, encroaching. All

981
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: the trees were planted in the fifties sixty seventies. Then

982
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: the fairway line shrunk, then the green shrunk. Then they

983
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: brought in Bob Lohman and a couple other guys in

984
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: the eighties and they rebuilt Green number seven, number eight,

985
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: and they moved to Green number nine because of the

986
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 2: green irre because of the expansion of yeah, of I

987
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: call it highway eighty seven because it's like a highway,

988
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,439
Speaker 2: but eighty seven street. And so we know that those

989
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: three greens were rebuilt. And then we do know that

990
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 2: Green six was rebuilt, but we think by Ross because

991
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: we have an aerial that shows it mid movement when

992
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 2: they pushed back seventy for the old lake Miss Chicken

993
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 2: Bluff to come into play. So we basically know what

994
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 2: greens were rebuilt, how the routing was and so then

995
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: we begin to build our master plan with all that,

996
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 2: you know, the foundation of all that stuff. We say, wow,

997
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 2: well we got to do a lot of tree removal,

998
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: you know, because we're going to try to open up

999
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: the playing corridors. We're going to open up the widen

1000
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 2: out the fairways, put the bunkers back to where Ross

1001
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: had them, you know, rebuild the t's, lowered them a

1002
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: little bit. You know, in the eighties they brought in

1003
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: all this fill, you know, a contractor somebody did. All

1004
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 2: the t's are five feet in the air. They're all perched,

1005
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: and so we're going to try to beat down the

1006
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 2: t's you know, to six or six inches to a

1007
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 2: foot above grade, widen them out.

1008
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 1: Better workout.

1009
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 2: You walk up the help right right, every tea bucks

1010
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: five feet in the air. You know, it's like where

1011
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: did the caddies stand?

1012
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: It's funny, I came. I've played here in twenty ten

1013
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: for the stadium and yeah, I for I didn't even

1014
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: think about the tea boxes. But then we come out

1015
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: here and like it's like one of the first things

1016
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: that you notice, Like when you come with a different

1017
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: you're looking at it, of course from a different lens

1018
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: and different perspective. Now it's but god, it looks so

1019
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: much better with it with the tree removal. I mean,

1020
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: the corridors, being able to uncover all the different green

1021
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,919
Speaker 1: sites and seeing them close together, and the layers and

1022
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, having bunkers on other greens that deceptively look

1023
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: like they're on on other holes. I mean the routing

1024
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: was really good for O'Neill. I mean he, I mean

1025
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: he did a great job.

1026
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: Unbelievable. I mean the routing at Beverly, the back nine

1027
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: is I don't know how you can do any better.

1028
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 2: I've tried to think about it, but yeah, it's it's unbelievable.

1029
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean so now we're just detriating the property,

1030
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 2: trying to expose the topography because what you know, what

1031
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 2: we talked about earlier is why Chicago golf you know,

1032
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 2: why is it just lacking and why is it a

1033
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: little you know behind other metro areas because of the topography. Well,

1034
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: what is Beverly blessed with unbelievab topography. I mean, it

1035
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 2: is a roller coaster out here. It is like being

1036
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: in Philly or New York, or it's like being in

1037
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 2: San fran you know, and it has these big valleys

1038
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 2: and big high points, and so we want the topography

1039
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: to be the star here and the show, you know,

1040
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 2: expose that and we're going to add you know, light

1041
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: fescue throughout the golf course, so we have that aesthetic.

1042
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 2: So we have that pleasing you know, those different colors

1043
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 2: out here in the summer, and you know, just really

1044
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 2: expose its assets and get the golf course back and

1045
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 2: you know, and hopefully bring it back in the really

1046
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: top five conversation as you know, Chicago Golf Club.

1047
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's there. I I mean, I'm I'm biased.

1048
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a classic golf course lover, and my my

1049
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: top five is different than a lot of the magazines.

1050
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: So it's but this is this has always been a

1051
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: place that ever since I played here that back then.

1052
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: I just love this place. It's it's got so much

1053
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: and it is it's a aspect of the land. I mean,

1054
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: it's it's got some really interesting holes and it it

1055
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: it's got fairway slopes, it's got you know you have

1056
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: to hit over, it's got some blindness to it. It's

1057
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: got really unique green positions where they're perched on up

1058
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: on like little knoles where you you know, as what

1059
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 1: we've seen with the tree removal out here is it's

1060
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 1: bringing back these infinity style greens that you know, really

1061
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: mess with your eye and then mess with your mind

1062
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: when you're standing over a shot.

1063
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the best thing I learned from Mike

1064
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: Strands growing up and traveling with my father to go

1065
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 2: see you know, World New Ken and Caledonia and True

1066
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 2: Blue was Mike Strands would beat you off the tee

1067
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: before you even hit your first shot at Tobacco Road.

1068
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 2: You're like, oh my gosh, the fairway looks like it's

1069
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 2: it's non existent. And so the mental part of golf,

1070
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, that is so underrated, where you're you know,

1071
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: interjecting that doubt before you even hit the golf ball

1072
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 2: on Beverly has that in so many locations where you're

1073
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 2: on seven and you're like, how far is how far

1074
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 2: is it to clear that bluff? You know, we're on eleven.

1075
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: Where is the fair way out there? You know you're

1076
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 2: hitting a blind t shot. And so it's these little

1077
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 2: things that golfers you know, take for granted or don't

1078
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 2: really even you know, have interjected into the game. You know,

1079
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 2: the doubt, the blindness, the the little you know, the

1080
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 2: scariness off the tee of Wow, the punkers look scary

1081
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: out there, like I better avoid these hazards.

1082
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: Who's your mount Rushmore of golf course architects.

1083
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a Flynn homer, which is funny because I

1084
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 2: work so much. I work so much on ross.

1085
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: But I think Flynn's super underrated.

1086
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you take his top five. I mean

1087
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 2: you got Shinna Cock and you know Huntington Valley and Lancaster.

1088
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: You know, Lancaster Country Club has maybe the best routing

1089
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 2: in America, you know, and Tom Doak I think has

1090
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 2: hit on that, but Lancaster is unparalleled and routing. I

1091
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 2: think it's the best routing in the world actually, And

1092
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: so Flynn growing up in Philly, playing Hunton Valley, playing

1093
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: Philly Country. I'm in Flynn, Homer. You know Marion Marion

1094
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 2: is a Flynn golf course. I mean Flynn. Flynn redid

1095
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: Marion for nineteen eighteen, nineteen twenty four AM, nineteen twenty AM,

1096
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty open. You know, he tinkered with that all

1097
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: the way up until thirty two, and so he almost

1098
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: pretty much rebuilt Marion three times.

1099
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: It drives me nuts because here in Chicago there was

1100
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: an estate course called mill Road Farm that was a flynn.

1101
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: That the longest flynn ever. They called it.

1102
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: The Oakeman of the Midwest. And he had a running

1103
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: bet with professionals that nobody could break par and I

1104
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: think only Tommy Armor broke Parr, like one guy of hundreds,

1105
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: if not thousands of pros that came through broke Parr.

1106
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: And then he also did Pine Meadow, which is a

1107
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: public course here. Unbelieve it is a great piece of land,

1108
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: and unfortunately Joe Lee got his hands on it and

1109
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: now there's a bunch of lakes and a bunch of it.

1110
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: But that would be a really cool place to see

1111
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: go back because it's owned by a bunch of nuns. Whoa, Yeah,

1112
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: it's pretty neat. It's I think the Jemsick family owns

1113
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: the property, so yeah, or it has the long term

1114
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: lease on it.

1115
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. But wow. Well to answer your question though, you

1116
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: know the Mountain Rushmore Flynn would be my number one.

1117
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: You know, I wish he just didn't live that long.

1118
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 2: You know, he died and I think in nineteen forty

1119
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 2: or thirty nine, and it was just a pretty you know,

1120
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: or maybe it was forty four, I think, but it

1121
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 2: was it was before the depression ended. And but it Flynn.

1122
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 2: And then you know, I love Walter Travis because his

1123
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 2: greens are so you know, I'm throwing a wild card

1124
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: out there, and Walter Travis because he.

1125
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: Got two wild Yeah.

1126
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 2: But you go of the Cape Rundle. I did that

1127
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 2: project for Bruce Hepner and Doak and bro Cape runnal

1128
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: of greens. It's like many Augusta greens. And then you

1129
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 2: go to a country club a trolly and and I mean, gosh,

1130
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: there you know country Clovis Scranton that I mentioned earlier.

1131
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 2: I mean the you know, Travis had such a great

1132
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: mind for greens. He was such a great putter. So

1133
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: Flynn Travis. You know, I gotta go with Ross obviously,

1134
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 2: you know for routings and just you know, the guy

1135
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: was a genius. I just don't know how he did it,

1136
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 2: you know, and and and then Mackenzie, you know, because

1137
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: McKenzie had that flare, you know, that sexiness. You know,

1138
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 2: he was just man, he was a wild drinker and partier.

1139
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 2: I've heard all the stories down in Australia, you know,

1140
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 2: like he would he would knock off work at two

1141
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 2: and man he'd be in the bar told midnight, you know,

1142
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: with his bottle of I think of a Scotch or

1143
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 2: whatever he drank, you know, whiskey. But uh, but so

1144
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 2: those five how many are my Rushan were four? Though? Yeah,

1145
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: so I gotta leave.

1146
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: You got you got four Ross, Flynn, Travis and Mackenzie.

1147
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 2: Boom, there we go.

1148
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: Gotta I gotta gotta leave a lot.

1149
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: Of Sorry Rainer, Sorry, I love those guys, and but man,

1150
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 2: when you knock them down to Ford stuff.

1151
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. It's there's so many good ones out

1152
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,479
Speaker 1: there and you're not even including any of the modern guys.

1153
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: You sorry, Martin, I'm sorry modern guys. I'm a homer

1154
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 2: for the old stuff.

1155
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 1: I am too. Yeah, there's nothing, nothing better than that.

1156
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: I think I've part of the best part of the

1157
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: why they're so popular now is that they were designed

1158
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: for championship golf now and it's perfect for every day

1159
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: golf now exactly. So it's all right, well, uh, we're

1160
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: gonna do some overrated, underrateds. So let's start with template holes.

1161
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: Overrated. Sorry, Yeah, they're there's a place for them. But

1162
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 2: you know, I've seen them all. They work, they're great.

1163
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 2: Old McDonald's really cool. But when you find that one

1164
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: golf hole, like you go to Woodhill and you're on

1165
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 2: the second hole and it's literally a two or twenty

1166
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 2: hole where if you hit the green you might make

1167
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 2: it two, but if you miss the green, you might

1168
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 2: make a twenty, like an engineer's you know, one of

1169
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 2: those two or twenty holes, and you're like, I've never

1170
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 2: seen a ross hole like this, you know, out of

1171
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 2: all the golf courses I've seen. So I like the

1172
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 2: ones where it's you know, the land is dictated the

1173
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 2: hole and it's like a one off and you're like,

1174
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, how cool is this hole? You know,

1175
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 2: Like yesterday I was down at how you met in

1176
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 2: the sixteenth hole. There it's like this volcano par three.

1177
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 2: This green's way up on this bluff. It's the highest

1178
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: one on the golf course. It's like, WHOA, how cool

1179
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: is that? Part three? And I know they've messed around

1180
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: with that green and knocked it down a little bit.

1181
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 2: But now, I think when you utilize the land and

1182
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 2: you have a really unique hole, you know, like a

1183
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 2: seed of rabids. The ninth hole is five hundred and

1184
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: sixty yards, but it gently climbs all the way up

1185
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 2: this big valley to a punch bowl green and you're like,

1186
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 2: wait a second, you have a blind punch bowl green,

1187
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 2: like an alps hole at the end of this unbelievably

1188
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 2: big valley hole that's reminiscs in an eighteen green and

1189
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 2: you're like, I've never seen anything like this in golf

1190
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 2: and wow, You're just like this is cedar rabbits. And

1191
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 2: then like another hole of cedar rabbits. There's a they

1192
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 2: call an old burial Indian mound. There's a mound that's

1193
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 2: fifty two feet in the air on the fourteenth hole

1194
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 2: and you hit a drive out to this flat fairway

1195
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: and then this green's fifty two feet in the air

1196
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 2: or forty eight feet in the air that goes away

1197
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 2: from you, and you're like, this is so cool because

1198
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 2: it's unlike anything I've seen. And so yeah, the templates

1199
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 2: have their spot and they're great and they were Dans

1200
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: so great. And then you know beer ritz you know,

1201
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 2: but like how about the beerrits at Somerset Hills that

1202
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's what ten eleven, twelve thirteen, you know

1203
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 2: that that Tilly put in there. It's like it's a

1204
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 2: par four burrits, you know, and that was nineteen fourteen.

1205
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: That was pretty freaking early for you know, burrits. Really cool.

1206
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: It's a lot of the best architecture breaks rules, right,

1207
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, like nobody would build a green on a

1208
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: fifty two f foot mound that runs away now a

1209
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: blind running away at green. But it's so neat that

1210
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like, you know, the most interesting

1211
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: routings are the ones that are very extreme, like you

1212
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 1: talked about with Northwood climbing up and then the ninth

1213
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: hole is all the way far away from the Northland,

1214
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 1: far away from the clubhouse. Like that's not an American

1215
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: golf traditional sense, and it's a different So yeah, and

1216
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 1: then you see with Rayner and McDonald, a lot of

1217
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: the greatest holes are non template holes.

1218
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're one offs.

1219
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a Yamen's Hall and eleven at Shore Acres.

1220
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly what we talked about earlier.

1221
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, fifteen at Short Acres. Yeah, like probably the two

1222
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: best holes.

1223
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:43,479
Speaker 2: On the golf two favorite probably, yeah, are.

1224
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: Non template holes. So that's That's something that frustrates me

1225
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: sometimes with Rainer is that everybody says, like, oh, the templates,

1226
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: so he just had the same, but like the holes

1227
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: that he found on each property were exception.

1228
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 2: He utilized the land so well with that surveying background

1229
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 2: of his. You know, he found he found the edens,

1230
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 2: you know, he found the dands, he found the burritz,

1231
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 2: he found you know, the prized dog leg and the

1232
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 2: road holes. He found them. So it took skill. Then

1233
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 2: Rainer was awesome.

1234
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: It's amazing. He didn't know anything about golf until mind

1235
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: boggling McDonald hired him for that.

1236
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just blows your mind. But like Yale, Like

1237
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 2: how good is Yale? You know that's a great land, Yeah,

1238
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 2: really great land, like almost mountainous land, like going up ten.

1239
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 2: You know, it's a skyscraper in front of you you know,

1240
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 2: and left of two. You know, it's like a forty

1241
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 2: five foot drop into that bunker. Yeah, Like, well I

1242
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 2: better not hit it.

1243
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 1: Left overrated, underrated professional golf.

1244
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 2: There's a place for it. There's definitely a place for it.

1245
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: But to answer your question, overrated in this time period,

1246
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 2: I think it was underrated maybe back in the day,

1247
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, professional golf. They weren't paid well, those guys

1248
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 2: were like grinding awesome. Now it's just irks me a

1249
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 2: little bit that these guys just line it up on

1250
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 2: you know, and just bang it straight. I just I

1251
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 2: love the Bubba's and the guys who work the ball

1252
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 2: and the Freddy couples who hit the buttercut, you know,

1253
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 2: working the ball, I think.

1254
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: As a lost art both doesn't spend it.

1255
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ball didn't spend and the grooves and all that,

1256
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,680
Speaker 2: and there's just too much money, you know, involved, and

1257
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 2: there's there's just no you know, I'm a field player.

1258
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 2: I hit a cut fade, you know, I worked the

1259
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,959
Speaker 2: ball around, and I just feel like there's there's none

1260
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 2: of that really left. There's just a couple guys.

1261
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I hope there's a Hickory revolution. I

1262
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: played with hickories in northern California, and it's just that

1263
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: it brought a lot of artistry and mid irons and

1264
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 1: stuff back into play. And really, especially when after you

1265
01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: walk around a golf course like Beverly and you think

1266
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: about playing it from fifty yards shorter off the tee.

1267
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's like, oh, all of a sudden, like

1268
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: this is a lot. This is a very difficult shot. Yeah,

1269
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: and you have to be really good. It just would

1270
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: bring so much balance back into it. But it's it

1271
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: is more structured now, and.

1272
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,959
Speaker 2: The wind would blow that ball, that ball would move

1273
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 2: and drop suddenly. You know, it's almost like a knuckleball

1274
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: how the ball used to fly and it would just

1275
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 2: like come out of the air and just stop and

1276
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: you're like what happened?

1277
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: And then if you hit a really if you hit

1278
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: a bad one, it just it goes no.

1279
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 2: Where this hits. We're just tailing, you know, zero right,

1280
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 2: you know, left or right.

1281
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: Part of me though, thinks sometimes that that would be

1282
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:46,439
Speaker 1: better for the higher handicap because they would go less

1283
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: off line. Like today, the ball just in the equipment.

1284
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: They high handicap players rarely hit the ball online and

1285
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: the ball just soars offline further.

1286
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes further and further away from the line

1287
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 2: to play. Yeah, like wow, I really hit that one

1288
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 2: at that time. But whoa, look how far right it's going.

1289
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: Like it's like I you know, growing up caddying for

1290
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: like really good women. They just kept the ball in

1291
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: front of the I'm like a lot of times they

1292
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: didn't get but you know, the end of the end

1293
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: of the day they shoot eighty two and it's like

1294
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 1: they did it by just keeping the ball in front,

1295
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: like keep it in playing. It's yeah, it's crazy, but

1296
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: everybody wants to hit it far. So last overrated, underrated

1297
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties Donald Ross.

1298
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 2: I would say, oh, well we're finally getting to where

1299
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 2: they're you know, back in the limelight. So I would

1300
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 2: say twenties are over or nineteen twenty will be overrated.

1301
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 2: His his real his his unbelievable era. I was like

1302
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 2: twenty four to twenty eight, twenty nine. You know he

1303
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 2: went on a run there when where Ross did a

1304
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 2: ron him. Then they went up the Mountain Ridge Plainfield,

1305
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 2: then down the Seminole. I mean they had a run

1306
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 2: there of like four years from twenty seven to thirty one.

1307
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. You know, they were like on fire.

1308
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 2: This guy's his crew. Yeah, so late twenties underrated, early twenties.

1309
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 2: I think he was just coming into his real real

1310
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 2: you know.

1311
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: How old would he have been then? He would have

1312
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: been about fifty years old.

1313
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he was Yeah, eighteen ninety nine when he emigrated,

1314
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 2: he was I think he was twenty seven. You know,

1315
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 2: he was born in eighteen seventy two, so he was

1316
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:44,320
Speaker 2: twenty seven when he emigrated. So yeah, twenty nineteen twenty two,

1317
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 2: he was fifty, so he was forty eight in nineteen twenty.

1318
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: What happened is in nineteen twenty one he really spiked

1319
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 2: up his work. But then that's also when his wife died,

1320
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 2: So I think he had a little he had, you know,

1321
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 2: from nineteen twenty to nineteen twenty three or four, he

1322
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 2: just wasn't focused, I don't think because his first wife died,

1323
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 2: you know, Susie or and she was or you know,

1324
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 2: I think that really took his his uh focus away.

1325
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 2: But in nineteen twenty one, he had like thirty nine projects,

1326
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 2: So nineteen twenty one was his busiest year, but then

1327
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 2: his wife was dying, So I think kind of from

1328
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:25,560
Speaker 2: nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty three, it might be overrated,

1329
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 2: you know, and then he like got his focus back,

1330
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 2: and from twenty four to thirty one, when the you know,

1331
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 2: when the real effects of the Great Depression knocked his business,

1332
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 2: you know, to zero. I think they had like three

1333
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: projects in nineteen thirty thirty one, you know, Jeffersonville and

1334
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 2: PA was one of them, and it was a public

1335
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:47,600
Speaker 2: golf course. But in twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty seven, woo.

1336
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: I mean they were really really doing some incredible stuff.

1337
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: So all right, Tyler, thanks for coming on. It was

1338
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: thanks fun talk. We'll have to do it another one

1339
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: for sure, you know, another subject. You got a lot

1340
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 1: of knowledge from those travels.

1341
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I love traveling. I mean that's all I

1342
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 2: do is go walk off course as much as I can,

1343
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,679
Speaker 2: and I know it's addicting. I love it. It's my favorite

1344
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 2: thing to do. And thanks so much for having me on.

1345
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, for the young guys in golf architecture,

1346
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 2: you know, the next wave, you know, thanks for exposing

1347
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 2: us a little bit. You know, I really appreciate it.

1348
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, and uh yeah, we can follow you

1349
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter.

1350
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 2: You on Instagram too, I am, but you know social media,

1351
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 2: it's like I just don't have the time. And both

1352
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,480
Speaker 2: at Tyler aid Design so people.

1353
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 1: Can find you there and then they can they can

1354
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: go check out your site too, So it's all right.

1355
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: Thanks again and we'll talk soon.

1356
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 2: Great, thanks Andy, but you've been listening to the fried

1357
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:54,680
Speaker 2: Egg podcast. We do the digging for you.