WEBVTT - Sherlock Holmes: The Man, The Myth

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck and Jerry's here too, and we're here to sniff

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<v Speaker 2>you up the case with our brand new episode on

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<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you ever read any Sherlock Holmes short stories or

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<v Speaker 1>one of the four novels?

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<v Speaker 2>You should have started that off with, Josh, Josh, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I have. I've never read the novels, but I've read

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<v Speaker 2>quite a bit of the short stories.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeh oh, okay, I didn't know you were Sherlockian.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not. I would not call myself that because if

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<v Speaker 2>you are Sherlockian or in the UK Holmesian, you are

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<v Speaker 2>like one of the original fans of fandom. And I

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<v Speaker 2>mean I'm not there, Like I don't qualify. No, okay, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>more than me. So have you read any not a one? Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you're missing out. They're really interesting and fun.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean not only that, I haven't really seen

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<v Speaker 1>any of the stuff either.

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<v Speaker 2>There's some really good movies out there. Last night, just

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<v Speaker 2>to brush up, I watched The House of Fear. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>just based on the short story of the Five Orange

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<v Speaker 2>Pips and it's really good. Basil Rathbone and Nigel Rogers

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<v Speaker 2>and just the straight ahead, mid century black and white

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<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes mystery that you think of when you think

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<v Speaker 2>of a Sherlock Holmes movie, or most people do. So

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<v Speaker 2>they're good, They're really the movies are generally good. I've

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<v Speaker 2>seen the worst version. People call the worst version Holmes

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<v Speaker 2>and wattson you saw that, No, But I watched a

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<v Speaker 2>clip and I was like, this is not that bad.

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<v Speaker 2>This is exactly what you'd expect from Will Ferrell and

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<v Speaker 2>John c Riley, Like, what were you thinking it's gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be like high art or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, I just heard it was zero five, not

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<v Speaker 1>that they were expecting something, you know. Posh.

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<v Speaker 2>Well the clip I saw was at least one and

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<v Speaker 2>a half percent fun. Okay, it has a half of

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<v Speaker 2>a star on Rotten Tomatoes.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, well, let's get into it because this is a.

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<v Speaker 2>Lot wait wait, wait, hold on, hunt, let me just

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<v Speaker 2>wrap this up. Okay, yes, you should read some of

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<v Speaker 2>the home stories. Okay, okay, yeah, let's get into it now.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, we're talking about Sherlock Holmes, the infamous,

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<v Speaker 1>the famous, fictional detective. I learned. I was about to

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<v Speaker 1>say a lot, but basically everything about this was new

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<v Speaker 1>to me. So I learned everything brand new. I was

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<v Speaker 1>this day years old when I learned everything. But one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that I did I did not know

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<v Speaker 1>for sure is that I always thought he was an

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<v Speaker 1>official like Scottland Yard detective. I did not know that

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<v Speaker 1>he was an amateur sleuth and that maybe he worked,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, alongside Scottland Yard at times, but I just

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<v Speaker 1>figure he was part of Scotland Yard.

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<v Speaker 2>No, he is the world's first consulting detective. That's what

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<v Speaker 2>Arthur Quinnan Doyle, the author called him. Another term for

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<v Speaker 2>that as a private eye.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So he would work with Scotland Yard sometimes, but most

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<v Speaker 2>of the time he was several steps ahead of Scotland

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<v Speaker 2>Yard whenever they did come in to arrest somebody.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, like I mentioned, there were four novels, there

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<v Speaker 1>were fifty six short stories over about a four decade

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<v Speaker 1>plus period, which is a lot of writing. And apparently,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is in twenty twelve, and he's been in

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<v Speaker 1>quite a few more adaptations since then, but he's Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he's the most frequently portrayed human literary character ever in

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<v Speaker 1>film and TV.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, two hundred and fifty four times.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, no way more than that, now picked.

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<v Speaker 2>It, yes, by seventy five actors.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, more than that now.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time in twenty twelve, the non human who'd

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<v Speaker 2>been most adapted was Dracula, and he only had Sherlock

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<v Speaker 2>Colmbs beat by like a handful. Oh okay, so there

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<v Speaker 2>you go, Sherlock Colmbs. Everybody loves to portray him, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's something we'll try to get to the bottom of here,

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<v Speaker 2>because what we're talking about is one hundred and nearly

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<v Speaker 2>fifty year old, like detective pulp fiction that has chapters

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<v Speaker 2>of fans all over the world. Sherlock Colmbs is one

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<v Speaker 2>of the most famous characters ever written in the history

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<v Speaker 2>of literature, and people are nuts for him still today,

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<v Speaker 2>and some people just like don't get it, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>something to get, but not everybody can put their finger

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<v Speaker 2>on it, and we probably won't either, but we'll try.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, I think I never read it because

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't read mysteries like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one of the things that separates him from the

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<v Speaker 2>mysteries is that he uses deductive reasoning like Agatha Christie.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like can you guess who it is? Maybe there's

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<v Speaker 2>a clue or something in there. More often than not,

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<v Speaker 2>there's really nothing in there that can tell you who

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<v Speaker 2>who did it? With Sherlock Holmes, it might not be

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<v Speaker 2>in there either. But what he uses is deductive reasoning,

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<v Speaker 2>where the kind of logic and reasoning he's using, like

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<v Speaker 2>anybody has that potential at faculty, he's just particularly gifted

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<v Speaker 2>with it. So he's I don't know, he's like a

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<v Speaker 2>machine as far as logic goes. But he's also a

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<v Speaker 2>deeply flawed person in a lot of ways too. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that makes him really interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and actually I need to correct myself. I did

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<v Speaker 1>Encyclopedia Brown, as I've mentioned before, and that's where that

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<v Speaker 1>train ended for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, it's an elementary school. Yeah, but I mean

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<v Speaker 2>what a ride it was, right.

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<v Speaker 1>That was pretty great. Watson, this is sidekick. We'll talk

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<v Speaker 1>a lot about him as we go, And the first

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<v Speaker 1>one was a study in Scarlet in eighteen eighty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean, let's go ahead, and I guess just

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about how who Holmes is as

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<v Speaker 1>a character. He's he's definitely like portrayed as like a genius.

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<v Speaker 1>He sometimes can be very sort of flippant and arrogant.

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<v Speaker 1>He's not very emotional. Watson says, you know that he

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<v Speaker 1>has no interest in women, and that there's been speculation

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<v Speaker 1>that Sherlock Holmes is a gay character. He's I believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Watson described him in a Scandal in Bohemia from eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety one as the most perfect reasoning and observing machine

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<v Speaker 1>that the world has seen. But as a lover, he

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<v Speaker 1>would have placed himself in a false position.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which you don't want to do, especially as a

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<v Speaker 2>gentleman in Victoria in England, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and a bit of enigma, right as far as

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<v Speaker 1>just kind of personal life. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The reason why is because it was not a main

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<v Speaker 2>driver of the series. Ye that Conandoah wrote like there

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<v Speaker 2>were allusions to his life outside of his mysteries, Like

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<v Speaker 2>he's well known to have a brother named Mike Croft.

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<v Speaker 2>He was really passionate about boxing, and he played the violin.

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<v Speaker 2>He was also very famous for intravenously injecting cocaine in

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<v Speaker 2>a seven percent solution, and these things were just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of referred to here or there early on. The cocaine

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of a driver of his character. He was

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<v Speaker 2>very self obsessed. He was very melancholy, like he would

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<v Speaker 2>shoot cocaine to like basically get through the tedium of

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<v Speaker 2>a day because he was so smart he couldn't possibly

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<v Speaker 2>do so otherwise. But then as he developed, he became

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<v Speaker 2>less of a well a cocaine addict and more of

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<v Speaker 2>a fully fleshed out character who's the point and purpose

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<v Speaker 2>was to figure out how to solve these mysteries using

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<v Speaker 2>logic and deduction, and that's what he really became more

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<v Speaker 2>than anything else.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean they've if you've seen, if you haven't read,

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<v Speaker 1>and you've only seen like movie and TV versions, you've

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<v Speaker 1>seen a lot more of a character called Irene Adler.

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<v Speaker 1>Irene Adler exists far more in the TV and film side.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe she was only in one story, so she's

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<v Speaker 1>been much much more portrayed on screen as maybe a

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<v Speaker 1>maybe a love interest, maybe a what's the word I'm

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<v Speaker 1>looking for, sort of like a foil at times, not

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<v Speaker 1>quite like a Moriarty level professor. Moriarty is often the

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<v Speaker 1>main foil and sort of evil criminal mastermind. But Adler

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<v Speaker 1>definitely exists a lot more in the film and television world.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in the world of Sherlock Holmes fans, they call

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<v Speaker 2>her the woman. She's the woman who like.

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<v Speaker 1>He called her that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh did he call her that? Okay? Yeah, So like

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<v Speaker 2>she's the one who caught his attention by foiling his

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<v Speaker 2>his investigation, Like he figured out what happened, but he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't catch the criminal, and that really caught his attention.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he'd only been thwarted like four times, and

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<v Speaker 2>she was one of them. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>He's also been like famously diagnosed retroactively with everything from

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<v Speaker 2>bipolar two disorder, depression, Asperger's syndrome, and he's also commonly

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<v Speaker 2>given an i NTJ personality hype from the Myers Briggs test,

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<v Speaker 2>which is analytical, logical and with a strong intuition that

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<v Speaker 2>seems to fit does so, going back out into the

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<v Speaker 2>real world, if you're going to take the Doilian view

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<v Speaker 2>of all this stuff that it's actually fiction written by

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<v Speaker 2>Arthur Conan Doyle. The whole thing started in eighteen eighty six,

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<v Speaker 2>I think when the first one that you just mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>to study in Scarlet was published in Breton's Christmas Annual.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was eighty seven eighty seven, correct it.

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<v Speaker 1>Because there are Sherlockeans and Homians Homesians.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, we should have totally given a CoA

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<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of this.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're going to be minor errors here and there.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So eighteen eighty seven, the first story comes out study

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<v Speaker 2>in Scarlett. I think it's actually a novel, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was published in this Christmas annual and it didn't take

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<v Speaker 2>off like a rocket until he started publishing the shorter

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<v Speaker 2>stories in a magazine called The Strand. And this is

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<v Speaker 2>at the time that Strand mag Maine was the most

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<v Speaker 2>widely circulated monthly magazine in all of Britain. And it

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<v Speaker 2>just so happened that Conan Doyle was writing these stories

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<v Speaker 2>at a time when Britain had suddenly become a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more literate and they were hungry for new fiction. So

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<v Speaker 2>he really kind of came in and brought Sherlock Holmes

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<v Speaker 2>in it just the right time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so people are reading this thing like crazy. I

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<v Speaker 1>think they ended up collecting those short stories in well,

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<v Speaker 1>a collection called The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, and like

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<v Speaker 1>you said, that was where I mean. I'm sure the

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<v Speaker 1>novels are great, but he only did four of them,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's really it seems like these short stories is

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<v Speaker 1>where he found a place to sell a lot more stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, I guess sell is one way to

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<v Speaker 1>say it, or write a lot more stuff, because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there were less than ten thousand words. They were even

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<v Speaker 1>short for detective short stories at the time, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think they appealed to younger people quite a bit from

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<v Speaker 1>what I've.

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<v Speaker 2>Read, Yeah, because at the time, the younger generation, we're

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<v Speaker 2>the ones who had just been educated through the public

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<v Speaker 2>education system that had just been developed, so they were

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<v Speaker 2>more likely to be able to read than their parents,

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<v Speaker 2>just statistically speaking.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but they didn't want to read some long novel.

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<v Speaker 1>They wanted to read a short story. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And also one of the other things too that Conan

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<v Speaker 2>Doyle figured out early on that I think people appreciate

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<v Speaker 2>because it's so comfortable and familiar, is essentially the same

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<v Speaker 2>formula for basically every single one of the stories.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which I mean it's like Encyclopedia Brown. In any

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<v Speaker 1>kind of detective story, you're going to have a client

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<v Speaker 1>come in or you know, it evokes fill Noir as well.

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<v Speaker 1>A client comes in in this case to the very

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<v Speaker 1>famous office to twenty one B Baker Street, and the

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<v Speaker 1>client themselves are going to be sort of picked apart

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<v Speaker 1>by Homes at the beginning, and he's going to make

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of deductions about them and then evaluate the

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<v Speaker 1>case and then you know, hit the streets, maybe maybe

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<v Speaker 1>in disguise and start doing the investigating of course, solve

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<v Speaker 1>the case, capture the bad guy, and then explain it

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<v Speaker 1>all the Watson Scooby Doo style at the end. Which

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, is this I know Holmes wasn't the first.

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<v Speaker 1>Then we'll get into that fictional detective, but is this

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<v Speaker 1>how that sort of trophy formula started?

0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes?

0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:24.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So none of the first fictional detectives did things

0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:24.560
<v Speaker 1>like that.

0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.600
<v Speaker 2>No, not in any kind of formula like that as

0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.600
<v Speaker 2>far as I know. And there were only maybe a

0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 2>dozen that came before him, but they were all just

0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of throwing stuff at the fridge to see what stuck.

0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.600
<v Speaker 2>It was Arthur Conan Doyle who's the one who really

0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.480
<v Speaker 2>figured it all out and just ran with it.

0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:45.280
<v Speaker 1>That's awesome. They were illustrated by a guy named Sidney Paget,

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.440
<v Speaker 1>and as far as the look of Holmes, that was

0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.199
<v Speaker 1>model on Paget's brother Walter, and you know, it would

0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.360
<v Speaker 1>just interpret whatever Doyle was writing as far as what

0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 1>he would draw. So in the book, for instance, you know,

0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.760
<v Speaker 1>there's two things, even if you don't know anything about

0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Sherlock Holmes, and in fact, you probably call it the

0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Sherlock Holmes hat and the Sherlock Holmes pipe. Yeah, that

0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:14.200
<v Speaker 1>big curvy, huge bell pipe. And then that deer stalker cap.

0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.160
<v Speaker 1>That's what it's, you know, it's what it technically is.

0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.679
<v Speaker 1>But everyone else just calls it the Sherlock Holmes hat.

0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.040
<v Speaker 1>But in the book Doyle just says it's a close

0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.680
<v Speaker 1>fitting cloth cap. He doesn't say he wore his deer

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.560
<v Speaker 1>stalker cap that was an invention of Sidney Paget.

0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that pipe is called a calibash pipe. And

0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.080
<v Speaker 2>like you said, I mean like draw you right, you

0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:38.360
<v Speaker 2>could draw like just a minimalist profile of just those

0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.160
<v Speaker 2>two things, and around the world people would know exactly

0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:41.840
<v Speaker 2>who that was.

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.680
<v Speaker 1>It's like the when Michael Jordan had the Hitler mustache

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.319
<v Speaker 1>in that TV commercial. I forgot them and everyone's like,

0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.680
<v Speaker 1>why do you have a Hitler mustache? Right? I totally

0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.320
<v Speaker 1>forgot Yeah, I mean that one's you can't have that

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>mustache anymore and he's no, no, no, I feel like

0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 1>he should have known that.

0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 2>No, you really couldn't from basically the nineteen thirties on

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:00.960
<v Speaker 2>where it was off the table.

0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean not even It's not like he was

0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:03.840
<v Speaker 1>doing it as an homage.

0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so.

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.120
<v Speaker 1>But it was definitely like what world is Michael Jordan

0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 1>living in Ray doesn't know that? Just nobody does that.

0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 1>It's funny.

0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.960
<v Speaker 2>So just one thing real quick for the Sherlockians and

0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the Homesians. I saw that it is contested that Walter

0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Sydney's brother was the model. Apparently Sidney claimed he wasn't

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 2>everyone says that he was. So maybe Sidney Pagett was

0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:27.680
<v Speaker 2>just a pathological liar.

0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Maybe. I mean, I'd have to see a picture of

0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 1>Walter too, you know, to know for sure.

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good way to put two

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.120
<v Speaker 2>and two together, I think, very homesy and in your

0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>approach elementary. You want to take a break and come back.

0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.440
<v Speaker 1>Sure, Yeah, good timing. We'll be a background for this.

0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.280
<v Speaker 1>By the way, we're back, And I said elementary. Apparently

0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.120
<v Speaker 1>that wasn't something Doyle wrote that came from one of

0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 1>the movies, right.

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.400
<v Speaker 2>The movies are the first stage play one of the two.

0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, maybe stage play yeah.

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 2>I think the closest he wrote was exactly my dear Watson.

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 2>So close.

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, not in Doyle, but elementary so much. That's

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.440
<v Speaker 1>way catch here for sure.

0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:32.040
<v Speaker 2>So the the books themselves, or the stories themselves are

0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>meant to be accounts of the cases of Sherlock Holmes

0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:40.200
<v Speaker 2>that were written by his sidekick, friend and roommate, John

0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:46.560
<v Speaker 2>Hamish Watson. He's a doctor, doctor John. Yeah, that's that

0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 2>was his sidekick.

0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.120
<v Speaker 2>So was that the one who was about spending the

0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:53.520
<v Speaker 2>night together there?

0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Uh? Yeah, I don't know much about doctor John. I

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.080
<v Speaker 1>do know that he was the inspiration for the Muppet band, right.

0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, okay, that's a different way. No, I think

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.720
<v Speaker 2>there's doctor Hooks in the Medicine show. I was just

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 2>doing Doctor John is awesome. I saw him open for

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Cindy Lauper once. Oh wow, that was quite a combination,

0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.520
<v Speaker 2>it really is. No, this is a different doctor John.

0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 2>This is doctor John Watson's sidekick to Sherlock Holmes, and

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.160
<v Speaker 2>he supposedly is the one who's narrating and recounting all

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 2>of these things.

0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and right away, right off the bat, he is

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.480
<v Speaker 1>sort of picked apart and deduced by Holmes. When they

0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.200
<v Speaker 1>first meet, Watson was an army medic that was wounded

0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 1>at the Battle of Maywand in Afghanistan, and Holmes picks

0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.280
<v Speaker 1>this up and Watson is like, oh my god, who

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 1>is this guy? Like, I can't believe this dude has

0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.600
<v Speaker 1>nailed this facet of my life right away.

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It was the first of many, many, many times

0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Watson would be astonished by Holmes's deductive reasoning skills.

0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but he's kind of the heart, right, like a Parenturrently,

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.399
<v Speaker 1>Holmes isn't the most likable guy, but Watson really brings

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:05.399
<v Speaker 1>the sort of heart to it.

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, he's warm, he's empathetic, he's just much It's

0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.480
<v Speaker 2>basically like you and me, right, Like, you're the heart,

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.360
<v Speaker 2>You're the approachable guy, you're the folks he one. I'm

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the one that's got this general please don't touch me vibe.

0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.600
<v Speaker 2>It's a bit like that. I'm not putting myself on

0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:27.600
<v Speaker 2>the same level of Shirlock Holmes, but in that sense,

0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.040
<v Speaker 2>I feel like we resemble it too.

0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but that's just because you don't want people to

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.560
<v Speaker 1>touch you please. You know, you can buy it honestly.

0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's not like a put

0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 2>on or anything. I really don't want to be touched.

0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.879
<v Speaker 1>So we mentioned that there were fictional detectives before. We

0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:46.719
<v Speaker 1>don't have to really go through, but there were like

0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.879
<v Speaker 1>thirteen that preceded him. But Holmes is really the one

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:55.360
<v Speaker 1>that came along, like you said, and use this scientific

0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.439
<v Speaker 1>reasoning and powers of deduction. And it wasn't just some dumb,

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:04.120
<v Speaker 1>blundering criminal, right that kind of gives himself away, and

0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.000
<v Speaker 1>we'll get into, you know, sort of why, but it's

0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.320
<v Speaker 1>because Doyle himself was medically trained and super on the

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.199
<v Speaker 1>just in the know about what was going on with

0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.680
<v Speaker 1>modern policing and forensics and stuff like that.

0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so because of that he was able to

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.760
<v Speaker 2>like really razzle dazzle is audience, Like it's stuff that

0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.320
<v Speaker 2>is just totally commonplace to us, was cutting edge of

0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.879
<v Speaker 2>the time, like collecting blood samples, analyzing like dust and

0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 2>dirt and stuff like that to figure out where it

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 2>came from, looking at handwriting, microscopes, finger printing. All these

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.960
<v Speaker 2>things were like brand spanking new in some cases where

0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.640
<v Speaker 2>his audience wouldn't have even heard of or thought about

0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.720
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. Sherlock Holmes is employing these techniques and in

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 2>the one. On the one hand, it is very razzle

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.960
<v Speaker 2>dazzle like just as cutting edge as possible at the time.

0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.600
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand too, he's he's basically he's

0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>using science. He's using rational science and the scientific method

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>in applying it to solve any problem. And that was

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.040
<v Speaker 2>very much like part of pop culture at the time.

0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.560
<v Speaker 2>This was prior to World War One, where we showed

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 2>like just how horrible science can go, where everybody was

0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 2>all about science. Science can solve any single problem, and

0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes is the embodiment of that.

0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure we should tick through a few more

0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:27.800
<v Speaker 1>of Holmes's sort of superpowers. As written by Doyle, this

0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.280
<v Speaker 1>is a pretty fun one that he could. He could

0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.960
<v Speaker 1>tell what a man did for a living by his fingernails,

0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 1>by his coat sleeve, by his boots, by his trouser knees,

0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.359
<v Speaker 1>by the callusis of his forefinger and thumb, by his expression,

0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.560
<v Speaker 1>by his shirtcuff. He was a safe cracker and a

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.919
<v Speaker 1>lock picker. Apparently, could tell the difference between one hundred

0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:52.360
<v Speaker 1>and forty different types of tobacco ash and forty two

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:53.920
<v Speaker 1>different bike tire treads.

0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's like, this is Virginia Slim.

0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. That's pretty fun though, like a pretty fun thing

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 1>to write, like a someone with almost superhuman. I mean,

0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:04.720
<v Speaker 1>people have made the case that he's sort of the

0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.400
<v Speaker 1>first superhero in a way.

0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, And but he's again he's not. He's

0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.720
<v Speaker 2>a human person, like you know what I mean, Like

0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.800
<v Speaker 2>he is a genius he does have right, Yes, it

0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:19.680
<v Speaker 2>is true, and I think that kind of makes Batman

0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:21.400
<v Speaker 2>more accessible than say spider Man.

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, spider Man was real too, Yeah.

0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.360
<v Speaker 2>But he was bitten by a radio active spider.

0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:27.239
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I see what you mean.

0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Sure, Batman came again, came across his powers through vas Yeah,

0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.959
<v Speaker 2>and enormous as well, for sure. But one of the

0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 2>things that that Holmes was famous for, too, Chuck, is

0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:46.480
<v Speaker 2>he was able to hone in so fully on catching

0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 2>somebody because he was very selective about the knowledge he

0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 2>took on. In some cases, he was just ignorant about

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.680
<v Speaker 2>stuff that anybody walking around would know about it. I

0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.040
<v Speaker 2>think there was a time where in one of the

0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:04.040
<v Speaker 2>stories where doctor Watson is explaining to him that the

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.199
<v Speaker 2>Earth travels around the Sun, and Sherlock Holmes is like,

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:08.960
<v Speaker 2>not only do I not know that, I'm going to

0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.760
<v Speaker 2>forget it now because I very carefully curate the information

0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 2>that goes into my mind, because I only want the

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 2>stuff in there that's going to help me solve cases.

0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.919
<v Speaker 2>I would suggest that that actually could maybe come in

0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.280
<v Speaker 2>handy with shadows and time changes and stuff like that,

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.280
<v Speaker 2>but maybe not. Maybe he didn't need that.

0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.879
<v Speaker 1>You would have been a good Watson, actually, Sherlock, if

0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.439
<v Speaker 1>you think about it, and he's like, no, no, no, no no.

0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.399
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I really would have annoyed Sherlock Holmes

0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:35.640
<v Speaker 2>if I had been a sidekick.

0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 1>We both would have. So he's generally trying to do

0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.240
<v Speaker 1>the right thing. He's trying to catch the bad guy,

0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.840
<v Speaker 1>he's trying to aid the desperate. For the most part,

0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:53.240
<v Speaker 1>he protects England from Corruption's there was a time where,

0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.600
<v Speaker 1>and Doyle wrote this into the stories where there were

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:59.760
<v Speaker 1>some just sort of notorious failures of the police not

0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.000
<v Speaker 1>catching Jack the Ripper being one of them, and so

0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:06.360
<v Speaker 1>he would like he would compensate for those failures. And

0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.639
<v Speaker 1>you know, even though he didn't have like maybe the

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.320
<v Speaker 1>best personality, he was all about business and all about

0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:11.920
<v Speaker 1>getting it done.

0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.280
<v Speaker 2>And he was a Victorian gentleman, so he was an

0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:20.040
<v Speaker 2>upholder of the social order and social hierarchies. He knew

0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.280
<v Speaker 2>how to navigate that stuff. But at the same time

0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.760
<v Speaker 2>he was also a critic of them. Like he saw

0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:29.840
<v Speaker 2>very clearly just how arbitrary and capricious the social hierarchies

0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.479
<v Speaker 2>in Great Britain were and are, and he criticized them

0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>personally to himself. He made no effort or action to

0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:39.760
<v Speaker 2>make any changes to them. He just saw them for

0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:41.960
<v Speaker 2>what they were, which was fraudulent and harmful.

0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.359
<v Speaker 1>Typically, Yeah, for sure, we should probably talk a little

0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:49.880
<v Speaker 1>bit more about Doyle. He was from Edinburgh, a town

0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.879
<v Speaker 1>that we have performed live in, one of the great

0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.239
<v Speaker 1>towns in Scotland.

0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:55.440
<v Speaker 2>One of the great towns in the world.

0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, I should have broadened that out. It was amazing.

0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:01.040
<v Speaker 2>There's only like two pounds in Scotland.

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh, come on, we were got such a good fath there.

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:07.639
<v Speaker 1>He trained to become a doctor, so we had medical training.

0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:09.280
<v Speaker 1>And it looks like he worked as a sort of

0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:13.240
<v Speaker 1>ship doctor on some like a whaling vessel and a

0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:17.639
<v Speaker 1>cargo steamer in West Africa. And he was always a

0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, a good and talented writer. And apparently while

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:24.879
<v Speaker 1>he was you know, not getting his medical practice going

0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:28.520
<v Speaker 1>to the degree where he could sustain himself financially. He

0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.440
<v Speaker 1>wrote this very first story. He still looked for three

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:36.280
<v Speaker 1>pounds to a periodical and the only, well seemingly the

0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>only reason he got his first novel, A Study in

0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Scarlett published, was because the wife of a publisher at

0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Wardlocking Company was like, you got to publish this guy's novel.

0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:48.400
<v Speaker 1>It's like it's really good.

0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:50.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and they're like, we'll give you twenty five pounds

0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:53.160
<v Speaker 2>for it was about think two hundred pounds today. Maybe

0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:55.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure I did the conversion, but I can't

0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:58.760
<v Speaker 2>read my own handwriting. And they were the ones who

0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 2>published that Breton's Miss Annuel, so that's where it first

0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:03.800
<v Speaker 2>popped up. But after it started to get more and

0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.200
<v Speaker 2>more popular when they appeared in Strand Magazine, he started

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.399
<v Speaker 2>to be able to command a little more money. So

0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 2>he sold a dozen to Strand Magazine for one thousand pounds,

0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:16.040
<v Speaker 2>which today would be about one hundred and ten thousand

0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:19.399
<v Speaker 2>pounds or one hundred and fifty thousand US dollars. And

0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.920
<v Speaker 2>there's a thing that he's fairly well known for. He

0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:27.240
<v Speaker 2>wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories, eventually almost against his will,

0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:32.000
<v Speaker 2>for money he considered himself a much better writer than

0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:38.640
<v Speaker 2>a writer of pulp crime fiction. Yeah, and he wrote

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.159
<v Speaker 2>the Sherlock Holmes stories because he essentially needed money all

0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:44.040
<v Speaker 2>the time, even though he was making gobs of it.

0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:46.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it seemed like It's not I don't

0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:51.560
<v Speaker 1>think he like hated his legacy, but it definitely seemed

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:53.760
<v Speaker 1>like everything I read he was like, you know, I'm

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:56.400
<v Speaker 1>writing these other books too, and all everyone cares about

0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.920
<v Speaker 1>are these Sherlock Holmes books, right, I mean this little

0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.800
<v Speaker 1>In fact, he wrote the original book The Lost World,

0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.479
<v Speaker 1>which is also a film in nineteen twenty five, and

0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:11.760
<v Speaker 1>Michael Crichton directly paid homage with his own novel The

0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:14.879
<v Speaker 1>Lost World. Yeah, and it's basically I mean, it's not

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.399
<v Speaker 1>the same plot, but it deals with people going to

0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:21.440
<v Speaker 1>a place in South America where there are prehistoric you know,

0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:22.280
<v Speaker 1>animals living.

0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and Arthur Conan Doyle was the first person who

0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:28.119
<v Speaker 2>wrote hang On to Your Butts.

0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, apparently Crichton was inspired to bring back Malcolm. I

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:34.480
<v Speaker 1>think he killed off Malcolm and brought him back to life.

0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:37.080
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, and that was also and I don't know

0:25:37.080 --> 0:25:39.000
<v Speaker 1>if it was an homage, but more of like, well, Hey,

0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 1>Doyle did it with Home, so I can do it

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 1>with Malcolm right exactly.

0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Doyle tried to kill off Sherlock Holmes at one point, unsuccessfully,

0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:50.919
<v Speaker 2>it turned out, and the reason why he had a

0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:53.760
<v Speaker 2>quote he said that I've had such an overdose of

0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:56.360
<v Speaker 2>homes that I feel towards him as I do toward

0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Petit de foi gras, of which I once ate too

0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>much so that the name of it gives me a

0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 2>sickly feeling to this day. That's how I was just

0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:08.520
<v Speaker 2>sick of Sherlock Holmes. He was that it was like

0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:11.439
<v Speaker 2>eating too much fois grass, which I can imagine is

0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:13.040
<v Speaker 2>not a very comfortable sensation.

0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:16.199
<v Speaker 1>I'll have none of it, thank you. One thing we

0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:19.000
<v Speaker 1>talked about Doyle before another podcast, I think when we

0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:22.639
<v Speaker 1>did episodes on like spiritualism and seances and things. That

0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:25.960
<v Speaker 1>was kind of one of his Aside from writing these books,

0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:30.000
<v Speaker 1>he was very well known for being into spiritualism. After

0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:32.359
<v Speaker 1>his son died in nineteen eighteen, he would go to

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:36.399
<v Speaker 1>up seances and try to, you know, make contact with

0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:39.320
<v Speaker 1>his son, which is super sad to think about. I

0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:42.440
<v Speaker 1>know that we definitely talked about him when we mentioned

0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:48.960
<v Speaker 1>the photograph that supposedly showed real fairies from Elsie Wright girls,

0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Elsie Wright and Francis Griffiths, and Doyle famously was like, no,

0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:53.720
<v Speaker 1>this is totally real, everybody.

0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Cottingham Fairies. Remember we build a whole episode

0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:58.159
<v Speaker 2>around the one thing that should have just been a

0:26:58.200 --> 0:26:58.840
<v Speaker 2>short stuff.

0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we've done that before.

0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So it was really surprising and shocking to Doyle's

0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.439
<v Speaker 2>friends his fans, like this is the opposite of what

0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes would do, you know, getting spiritualism. But he

0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:14.919
<v Speaker 2>was tenacious, like he was a true believer. And he

0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:18.040
<v Speaker 2>was friends with Harry Houdini, and they were an odd

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:22.400
<v Speaker 2>pair because Houdini was a voracious skeptic. He couldn't stand mediums.

0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:26.800
<v Speaker 2>He liked to unmask mediums, and Conan Doyle would support

0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:30.520
<v Speaker 2>them by going to them, and he Conan Doyle thought

0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Houdini had supernatural powers, despite Hoodini saying like, no, these

0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:37.360
<v Speaker 2>are all tricks. Yeah, like I'm just doing these I'm

0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:39.280
<v Speaker 2>not going to tell you how I did it, but

0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:42.320
<v Speaker 2>these are tricks. Please believe me. And I would be like, yeah,

0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:45.359
<v Speaker 2>I read between the lies or did you just supernatural?

0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Did you just wink at me?

0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Right? Exactly.

0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:49.320
<v Speaker 1>It's like Constanzo.

0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but he was just he was just do Yeah,

0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:56.960
<v Speaker 2>that's a great one. But he was just it was

0:27:57.000 --> 0:27:59.439
<v Speaker 2>just his thing. He could not be persuaded out of

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:00.800
<v Speaker 2>believing in spiritualism.

0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:04.520
<v Speaker 1>There's also been a lot of you know, ideas over

0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:07.719
<v Speaker 1>his history about who, like who he was based on.

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Was there a real Sherlock Holmes. The name itself comes

0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:16.960
<v Speaker 1>from American doctor Oliver Wendell Holmes, because again Doyle was

0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:19.639
<v Speaker 1>trained as a doctor, so I guess that was just

0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:23.560
<v Speaker 1>a homage on his part. There's a historian named Angela

0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:26.200
<v Speaker 1>Buckley that claims there was a Victorian police officer named

0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:31.719
<v Speaker 1>Jerome Caminada that inspired him. But Doyle himself says, now,

0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:35.959
<v Speaker 1>the inspiration was a guy that taught me in medical school.

0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:38.200
<v Speaker 1>He was my third year instructor of clinical surgery. His

0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:40.920
<v Speaker 1>name was doctor Joseph Bell, and he had this sort

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>of party trick that he would do in lectures and

0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:50.200
<v Speaker 1>stuff where he would sort of demonstrate, I almost said,

0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:56.080
<v Speaker 1>Doyle Holmes like qualities of deducing things from little mundane

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:58.280
<v Speaker 1>details about somebody.

0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like where someone had been, whether they were a sailor,

0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 2>if they smoked. Apparently very famously. He once said, madam,

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I would ask you to reveal your pipe, and everyone

0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:12.719
<v Speaker 2>gasped us this old lady who showed her pipe, and

0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:16.080
<v Speaker 2>that was clearly the root of her problem, and he

0:29:16.240 --> 0:29:18.960
<v Speaker 2>just deduced it from a lower lip ulcer and a

0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:21.640
<v Speaker 2>little bit a little scar on her cheek. He could

0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:24.360
<v Speaker 2>do that with everybody. So that part of Holmes is

0:29:24.400 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>definitely from Joseph Bell. I mean, like you said, he

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:29.800
<v Speaker 2>said as much. But Angela Buckley has a pretty good

0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:33.880
<v Speaker 2>claim that Jerome Kaminada inspired him too. If you look

0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:37.080
<v Speaker 2>into Kamanada, he would use disguises. He was doing police

0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 2>work that now today is just part of police worker.

0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 2>At the time, he was the only one on the

0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:44.240
<v Speaker 2>Manchester Force who was doing this stuff, so it was

0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:47.600
<v Speaker 2>probably an amalgamation of a bunch of different people all

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:51.760
<v Speaker 2>combined with Doyle's command of science, cutting edge science at

0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>the time.

0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, I mean, on that note, we've talked about

0:29:54.880 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 1>how he was using all of these sort of modern

0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:01.400
<v Speaker 1>things to inspire the stories. It actually happened the other

0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:03.400
<v Speaker 1>way as well, which is super cool, Like there were

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:08.600
<v Speaker 1>real investigators that were doing things that they found that

0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:12.400
<v Speaker 1>Holmes did in the novels and I mean, that's super cool.

0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:15.800
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't they knew that there was sound science behind it,

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:18.960
<v Speaker 1>so there was I think there was a French criminologist

0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 1>named Edmund Locard who basically was like, yeah, I do

0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:26.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of this stuff that Sherlock Holmes does in

0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:28.479
<v Speaker 1>his books because it's super smart and a good way

0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:29.240
<v Speaker 1>to catch somebody.

0:30:29.800 --> 0:30:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And there's also this instance of life imitating art

0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.640
<v Speaker 2>that showed up in the story The Problem of thor Bridge.

0:30:38.080 --> 0:30:44.560
<v Speaker 2>And in the story, I guess, the victim takes their

0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:48.200
<v Speaker 2>own life by shooting themselves with a gun that's tied

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:50.440
<v Speaker 2>to a rock with a short rope, and they shoot

0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:53.760
<v Speaker 2>themselves on a bridge over a waterway, so that as

0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:56.480
<v Speaker 2>they fall to the ground, the gun is pulled down

0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 2>into the water and it looks like it was a

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:02.680
<v Speaker 2>homicide so the family can collect insurance. Well, there's no

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:04.800
<v Speaker 2>less than two people out there who seem to have

0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 2>been directly inspired by the story in real life did

0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:11.160
<v Speaker 2>the same thing. And it turns out that it gets

0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:15.160
<v Speaker 2>even more twisted because Arthur Conan Doyle probably got his

0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:18.960
<v Speaker 2>idea for the Problem with thor Bridge from a case

0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:23.040
<v Speaker 2>that was written about by Austrian criminologist Hans Gross in

0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:26.840
<v Speaker 2>eighteen ninety three where this this thing actually happened. So

0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>you have a case of life imitating art imitating life.

0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well. Engross is another one of those who was

0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:35.240
<v Speaker 1>like picking up stuff from the novels to use in

0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:39.280
<v Speaker 1>everyday work. Like you mentioned dust, like gathering dust and packets,

0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:43.400
<v Speaker 1>and Locard was telling like the police, the policeman on

0:31:43.480 --> 0:31:45.400
<v Speaker 1>his staff like, hey, you should read these you guys

0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:46.320
<v Speaker 1>should read these books.

0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Like Arthur conan Doyle's character Sherlotte Colmes was the

0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:53.240
<v Speaker 2>first to basically say, we need to not contaminate crime scenes.

0:31:53.240 --> 0:31:55.760
<v Speaker 2>They need to be preserved as they are when we

0:31:55.840 --> 0:31:59.200
<v Speaker 2>come upon them. This is before cops were even doing that,

0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:01.640
<v Speaker 2>like cutting in cops were even doing it, Like he

0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:04.959
<v Speaker 2>was just laying down some amazing stuff.

0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Should we take another break?

0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:10.479
<v Speaker 2>After me saying something like he was laying down some

0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:13.240
<v Speaker 2>amazing stuff, I feel like it's yeah, we need to.

0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 1>All right, we'll be right back.

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:39.280
<v Speaker 2>So we're back, Chuck. And even Conan Doyle was surprised

0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:43.960
<v Speaker 2>by how popular his character was and he couldn't quite

0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:47.040
<v Speaker 2>figure out why. He just assumed it was a distraction

0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:51.520
<v Speaker 2>from everyday life. Other people have said It probably also

0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:54.640
<v Speaker 2>has a lot to do with the short story form,

0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they pretty like action starts taking place

0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:00.760
<v Speaker 2>pretty quickly. But at the same time, a lot of

0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:04.840
<v Speaker 2>the stories start out with Watson and Sherlock Holmes hanging

0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:07.200
<v Speaker 2>out in their sitting room and there's like a fire

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:11.480
<v Speaker 2>burning or it's just like like Conan Doyle adds just

0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:14.800
<v Speaker 2>enough detail here there to really kind of make it engrossing.

0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:16.920
<v Speaker 2>But then it takes off, and like we said, it

0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:21.000
<v Speaker 2>follows that formula. So there's a comforting familiarity to the

0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:23.920
<v Speaker 2>whole thing that a lot of people make point to

0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:26.360
<v Speaker 2>is like this is why it's endured for so long.

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like a cozy quality, yes.

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Cozy mystery kind of thing, but then it branches out

0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:33.240
<v Speaker 2>into the world of Victorian London.

0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:38.040
<v Speaker 1>So, like you said, he was surprised because I'm not

0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:40.480
<v Speaker 1>only surprised at like, hey, people are really liking this,

0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:44.240
<v Speaker 1>but that just wasn't a thing there. That kind of

0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:47.160
<v Speaker 1>fandom wasn't a thing. It was probably the first time

0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:50.640
<v Speaker 1>that there were groups of people getting together and like

0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:55.240
<v Speaker 1>talking about this stuff and forming like fan groups. Maybe

0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:58.960
<v Speaker 1>the first fan fiction. As it turns out, Jay and Barry,

0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:02.360
<v Speaker 1>who was a contemporary obviously, the creator of Peter Pan

0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:07.360
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen ninety one anonymously wrote My Evening with Sherlock Holmes,

0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:11.839
<v Speaker 1>which is sort of the first fanfic perhaps.

0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that was kind of a good example of

0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:20.440
<v Speaker 2>how he changed fandom or created fandom where readers stopped

0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:23.200
<v Speaker 2>just kind of passively consuming stuff and started being like,

0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:26.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a there's a parasocial exchange going on here, like

0:34:26.719 --> 0:34:29.719
<v Speaker 2>we own you, you belong to us, Give us more.

0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:32.200
<v Speaker 2>You know what George R. Or Martin went through when

0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:33.239
<v Speaker 2>he hadn't finished that.

0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.839
<v Speaker 1>Last Yeah, yeah, that last book.

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Like that was essentially Arthur Conan Doyle's fault.

0:34:38.840 --> 0:34:41.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And like you said earlier, when he tried to

0:34:41.160 --> 0:34:44.239
<v Speaker 1>kill well, not tried, when he killed them off, there

0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:48.759
<v Speaker 1>was a revolt. There were twenty thousand Strand subscribers who

0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:52.600
<v Speaker 1>canceled their subscriptions. They would write these, you know, hateful

0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:55.520
<v Speaker 1>angry letters of the time. It wouldn't be like the

0:34:55.520 --> 0:34:58.480
<v Speaker 1>hateful angry letter you would get today. I think one

0:34:58.520 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 1>of them started with you brute, which is, you know,

0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:05.040
<v Speaker 1>that's pretty tough language for back then for sure. And

0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:08.319
<v Speaker 1>then so he needed money and so he was like,

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:10.839
<v Speaker 1>all right, I guess I need to write another one

0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:15.480
<v Speaker 1>of these things. So he published The Hound of the Baskervilles,

0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:18.600
<v Speaker 1>which was sort of a prequel. It wasn't bringing him

0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:20.840
<v Speaker 1>back from the dead just yet. It was Holmes before

0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 1>he died. He finally resurrected him in the Adventure of

0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:29.839
<v Speaker 1>the Empty House in nineteen oh three and just said

0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:31.120
<v Speaker 1>he faked his death.

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And everybody was like, fine, we don't care. I'm

0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:35.520
<v Speaker 2>glad you brought him back.

0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:37.520
<v Speaker 1>He could just said it was magic and they would

0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:38.759
<v Speaker 1>have been like, okay, fine.

0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but he came back with it just a classic

0:35:41.480 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>right off the cup. The Hound of the Baskervilles is

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.680
<v Speaker 2>probably the most well known Sherlock Holmes case, and it's

0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:50.680
<v Speaker 2>just a really well written book, and it's been adapted

0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>into movie after movie after movie, apparently.

0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:54.359
<v Speaker 1>More than twenty of them.

0:35:54.400 --> 0:35:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I think, oh, really, I'm surprised it's actually not more.

0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.520
<v Speaker 2>There was one called Derhound von Baskerville, and that was

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:04.560
<v Speaker 2>a favorite of Hitler's, who's now made two appearances in

0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes episode. Did not expect that. No, But part

0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 2>of this whole thing that we kind of I mentioned

0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Douleian interpretation earlier. There's this thing that's a part of

0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:19.440
<v Speaker 2>being a Sherlock Holmes fan. Again, in North America they're

0:36:19.480 --> 0:36:24.640
<v Speaker 2>called Sherlockians. In the UK they're called Holmesians. And if

0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:26.720
<v Speaker 2>you're a Sherlock Holmes fan, there's a really good chance

0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:28.799
<v Speaker 2>that you treat this whole thing as if these are

0:36:28.960 --> 0:36:34.440
<v Speaker 2>real accounts of real life, historical happenings, that are the

0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>cases of a real life detective named Sherlock Holmes, and

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:41.760
<v Speaker 2>that these were written by real life doctor and friend

0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 2>to Holmes, John Watson, and that Arthur Conan Doyle was

0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Watson's literary agent, and that they it just goes from there,

0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:54.520
<v Speaker 2>And it's really important to remember you don't just completely

0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:57.200
<v Speaker 2>take leave of your senses when you become a Sherlock

0:36:57.239 --> 0:37:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Holmes fan. This is all tongue in cheek, it's all whimsical,

0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:04.239
<v Speaker 2>but the way that they treat it is very serious.

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:09.359
<v Speaker 2>And they use like actual like literary analysis in genealogy

0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:12.279
<v Speaker 2>and all this stuff to basically tease out as much

0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:15.319
<v Speaker 2>information as they can about the real life homes and

0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:17.640
<v Speaker 2>real life Watson. And they call the whole thing the

0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Grand Game. And it's definitely a cornerstone of being a

0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes fan.

0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's super cool. And I think the sort of

0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.040
<v Speaker 1>origins of that were in nineteen eleven when a guy

0:37:27.120 --> 0:37:31.759
<v Speaker 1>named Ronald Knox wrote a spoof textual analysis and he

0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:33.839
<v Speaker 1>would you know, that's where it became. He would say

0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:36.640
<v Speaker 1>things like sacred writings, and that's when the official canon

0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:40.040
<v Speaker 1>was born. And like you said, that lives on today

0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:44.640
<v Speaker 1>with the Grand Game and specifically the biggest group. I mean,

0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 1>there's plenty of groups, there's no shortage. I'm sure there's

0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:50.799
<v Speaker 1>one in your town, unless you know you live in

0:37:50.840 --> 0:37:53.160
<v Speaker 1>like the tiniest town imaginable, there's probably a Shirlock Holmes

0:37:53.200 --> 0:37:56.960
<v Speaker 1>group there you get together with. But the most famous

0:37:57.000 --> 0:38:00.839
<v Speaker 1>one is called the Baker Street Irregulars out of New York.

0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:03.840
<v Speaker 1>It is an invitation only group. It was founded in

0:38:03.920 --> 0:38:06.719
<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty four, and it seems like, you know, it's

0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:10.480
<v Speaker 1>pretty hard to get in. Isaac Asimov was in FDR,

0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:14.000
<v Speaker 1>was in there. I believe. The one in England is

0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:17.080
<v Speaker 1>called the Sherlock Holmes Society of London. Yeah, and they

0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:20.120
<v Speaker 1>just they get together, they dress up, they have some

0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.360
<v Speaker 1>dinner and they play the Grand Game, which sounds like

0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:25.200
<v Speaker 1>a lot of fun quite honestly, Yeah.

0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:26.920
<v Speaker 2>I read in an article I could not find it

0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:29.640
<v Speaker 2>for life of me where the author the journalist was

0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:31.800
<v Speaker 2>invited to one of these meetings, and it just sounded

0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:36.640
<v Speaker 2>so fun and so cool. But yeah, that's I think

0:38:36.680 --> 0:38:40.440
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting that the American chapter is like the founding

0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:44.919
<v Speaker 2>fan chapter Fan Club of Sherlock Holmes, not the British one.

0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:45.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:52.160
<v Speaker 2>And they actually are so essentially powerful that they actually

0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:57.000
<v Speaker 2>grant like official status to other chapters Elsewhere. I found

0:38:57.000 --> 0:39:01.040
<v Speaker 2>one called the Shaka Sherlockians of Hawaii. They were basically

0:39:01.040 --> 0:39:03.880
<v Speaker 2>given official status by the Baker Street Irregulars. It's a

0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:06.000
<v Speaker 2>great website. If you want to know more in a

0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:09.359
<v Speaker 2>lot of detail about Sherlock Holmes, go check out Shaka Sherlockians.

0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:10.000
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty fun.

0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:14.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, we mentioned adaptations. There have been tons of them.

0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:17.239
<v Speaker 1>I said, there have been over twenty film or TV

0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:22.720
<v Speaker 1>versions of The Hound of the Baskervilles. Specifically the first one,

0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:25.560
<v Speaker 1>and yes, you are correct, that was a stage version

0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:29.600
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen ninety nine from William Gillette where the line

0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:34.919
<v Speaker 1>elementary my dear fellow first came along. And I mean,

0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:37.440
<v Speaker 1>you name it. How many movies have there been? Total?

0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Do we even know I'm sure seventy.

0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Million, I think a lot. Yeah, I'm not. Yes, you

0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.839
<v Speaker 2>bet your sweet Pippy that there's a Sherlockean out there

0:39:47.840 --> 0:39:49.719
<v Speaker 2>who knows exactly how many movies there are.

0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think depending on who asked, taste

0:39:52.960 --> 0:39:56.400
<v Speaker 1>differs obviously, but the Private Life of Sherlock Holmes from

0:39:56.480 --> 0:40:01.440
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy from Billy Wilder is generally regarded as like

0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:04.239
<v Speaker 1>one of the best adaptations, even though it was a

0:40:04.280 --> 0:40:06.760
<v Speaker 1>box office failure and it had a pretty troubled production

0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:11.200
<v Speaker 1>m it just brought a little a wit to it

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:15.160
<v Speaker 1>thanks to Billy Wilder obviously that hadn't been there before,

0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.520
<v Speaker 1>and I think Wilder definitely hammered home. The subtext at

0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:19.919
<v Speaker 1>Holmes perhaps is gay.

0:40:20.800 --> 0:40:23.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he later said that he regretted not coming out

0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.040
<v Speaker 2>and actually saying it. That was definitely his intent, but

0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:29.359
<v Speaker 2>it's not ambiguous in the movie, And just reading about

0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:32.719
<v Speaker 2>the movie in and of itself is pretty interesting. But

0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:35.960
<v Speaker 2>it's one of the reasons why it's so beloved by

0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:40.279
<v Speaker 2>Sherlock fans is the attention to detail, and that's like

0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.680
<v Speaker 2>true to the cannon is unparalleled, Like no one I

0:40:43.680 --> 0:40:46.680
<v Speaker 2>don't think has ever really done it. That well, even

0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:49.920
<v Speaker 2>though the actual like plot and everything that's going on

0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:54.160
<v Speaker 2>the point is just so wildly outside of the canon.

0:40:54.640 --> 0:40:56.719
<v Speaker 2>It's a weird amalgam of it.

0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that was Robert Stevens played Homes in that film.

0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:05.640
<v Speaker 1>One of the more beloved performances was Jeremy Brett in

0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:09.520
<v Speaker 1>the eighty four through ninety four A Granada television series.

0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:12.879
<v Speaker 1>I don't really know how people feel about the Guy

0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:16.839
<v Speaker 1>Richie stuff. I haven't seen those movies or read much criticism.

0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:20.000
<v Speaker 1>You haven't seen the movies, no, I've literally never seen

0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:22.480
<v Speaker 1>any Sherlock Holmes sing or read any Sherlock holmsing.

0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:24.640
<v Speaker 2>Wow. I don't know if the first one you should

0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:28.840
<v Speaker 2>see is the Guy Ritchie versions. But they're really interesting

0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:33.879
<v Speaker 2>interpretations of it. Like they get in fights, like they throw,

0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:37.000
<v Speaker 2>they throw fists and stuff, like Sherlock Holmes beats people up.

0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:40.160
<v Speaker 2>It's really interesting. But it also is very true to

0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:42.640
<v Speaker 2>the canon too, so I think a lot of people

0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:45.160
<v Speaker 2>actually like it, like even Sherlockians.

0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Right, maybe you know what I have seen something because

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:52.440
<v Speaker 1>I forgot. I have seen both of the Anola Holmes films.

0:41:52.600 --> 0:41:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, there you go.

0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:58.200
<v Speaker 1>In which Anola Holmes is the twenty year younger sister

0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:01.400
<v Speaker 1>of Sherlock. I believe she's like fourteenish in the movies

0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:05.760
<v Speaker 1>and played by uh, what's your name? Millie Bobby Brown

0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:08.360
<v Speaker 1>eleven hit from Stranger Things, and we watch those with

0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:10.680
<v Speaker 1>the family and Ruby and Emily and I all quite

0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:11.600
<v Speaker 1>enjoyed those movies.

0:42:11.800 --> 0:42:12.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so you like those.

0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:16.319
<v Speaker 1>I did like those. But Sherlock is very adjacent in

0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:17.040
<v Speaker 1>those films.

0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:20.000
<v Speaker 2>No, for sure. I'm just trying to think of what

0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:22.680
<v Speaker 2>the first thing you should see is. I really don't

0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:25.000
<v Speaker 2>think it should be the guy RITI once, Maybe Watson,

0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, probably not that despite the clip that

0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I saw, it does seem to not be very well loved.

0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:35.719
<v Speaker 1>Well Cumberbatch. I'll like Cumberbatch. He did a modern one, right.

0:42:36.080 --> 0:42:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and actually you mentioned that Billy Wilder kind of

0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:41.359
<v Speaker 2>brought like a little bit of humor comedy to it.

0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 2>That guy carried on by Sherlock on BBC. That was

0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Benedict Cumberbatch. I don't know. I can't really recommend what

0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:53.480
<v Speaker 2>to go into. Hopefully some of our bigger Sherlocky and

0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:55.880
<v Speaker 2>fans can recommend where to start to you, because you

0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.440
<v Speaker 2>really should. You should at least see one thing, if

0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:00.520
<v Speaker 2>not read one thing and just see what you think.

0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:03.440
<v Speaker 1>I like Johnny Lee Miller in that Elementary sounds interesting.

0:43:04.360 --> 0:43:06.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay. Do you like Lucy Lou two?

0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:07.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Sure she And there you go, my friend, You're gonna

0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:11.239
<v Speaker 2>love Elementary.

0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:13.600
<v Speaker 1>I think maybe I'll check out one of those. But

0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:15.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's somebody in my head that I picture

0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:18.919
<v Speaker 1>from a kid. Would that have been the TV show?

0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 1>The one I mentioned is the most like beloved portrayal?

0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Maybe Jeremy Brett. You weren't a kid in nineteen eighty four.

0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:29.200
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't a kid in nineteen eighty four.

0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:32.760
<v Speaker 2>No, you were nearly a grown man at age fourteen.

0:43:33.680 --> 0:43:35.960
<v Speaker 1>It was thirteen. Thank you. That may be the one

0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:38.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking in my head, because I just when I

0:43:38.280 --> 0:43:41.320
<v Speaker 1>think in my mind of Sherlock Holmes as a TV

0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:44.680
<v Speaker 1>portrayal or whatever, this one dude pops into my head,

0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:45.719
<v Speaker 1>and I bet you that's who that is.

0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Did you watch a lot of Masterpiece Theater as a

0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:48.759
<v Speaker 2>thirteen year old?

0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:50.399
<v Speaker 1>A little bit here and there?

0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh, and maybe that is.

0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:52.319
<v Speaker 1>What it was.

0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:55.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, supposedly he is the one who did the best

0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:55.920
<v Speaker 2>out of all.

0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:57.360
<v Speaker 1>Of them all right.

0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Interestingly, though, Johnny Lee Miller was the one who's portrayed

0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:03.160
<v Speaker 2>him the most, with one hundred and four one hundred

0:44:03.160 --> 0:44:06.600
<v Speaker 2>and fifty four episodes on that show Elementary. That was

0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:08.400
<v Speaker 2>a little trivia for you.

0:44:08.680 --> 0:44:11.920
<v Speaker 1>That's modern times set right, Yes, that.

0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.560
<v Speaker 2>And Sherlock are both set in modern times. And if

0:44:14.600 --> 0:44:17.759
<v Speaker 2>you go back to the actual stories, they're all set

0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:20.400
<v Speaker 2>in Victorian England, even though he was writing them well

0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:23.400
<v Speaker 2>outside of Victorian England by the time he wrapped them up.

0:44:24.000 --> 0:44:26.839
<v Speaker 1>Well, this all brings up the sort of ending here

0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:29.960
<v Speaker 1>is that can anyone just make this or do they

0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:32.120
<v Speaker 1>have to pay for the rights or is it still

0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:35.760
<v Speaker 1>in is it in the public domain? And the answer

0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:40.279
<v Speaker 1>is it's been fairly complicated for a while now, I

0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:42.080
<v Speaker 1>mean up until recently that is.

0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So his son's one of their widow's producer and

0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.600
<v Speaker 2>someone else basically got together when Conan Doyle died in

0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:54.160
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty and they were like, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine,

0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and they managed to gather up all the rights to

0:44:57.000 --> 0:45:00.640
<v Speaker 2>all of the Sherlock Holmes writing the character every and

0:45:00.680 --> 0:45:04.080
<v Speaker 2>consolidated it into Conan Doyle Estate Limited. And if you

0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:06.359
<v Speaker 2>had anything that you wanted to do with Sherlock Holmbs,

0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:08.080
<v Speaker 2>you had to go through them, and you had to

0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:11.560
<v Speaker 2>pay them whatever they wanted, essentially, and they ruled Sherlock

0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Holmes's intellectual property with an iron fist for almost a century,

0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:21.040
<v Speaker 2>and they really got a bad reputation for it. But

0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:23.760
<v Speaker 2>despite that, that just goes to show how popular Sherlock

0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Holmes is. People kept dealing with them to make Sherlock

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:32.880
<v Speaker 2>Holmes movies, books, fan fiction analysis, basically everything amazing.

0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:37.000
<v Speaker 1>There was one pretty famous case where the movie seven

0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:40.640
<v Speaker 1>Percent Solution from the seventies from nineteen seventy four from

0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:44.719
<v Speaker 1>director Herbert Ross. Apparently they thought it was in the

0:45:44.719 --> 0:45:46.160
<v Speaker 1>public domain and it wasn't.

0:45:47.040 --> 0:45:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Man, what a surprise that would have been.

0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:50.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, how do you I don't know. Maybe I guess

0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:52.640
<v Speaker 1>things were different back then in seventy four, but how

0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:54.560
<v Speaker 1>does this studio not know that when they greenlight it.

0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:56.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. That one was interesting though I looked

0:45:56.920 --> 0:45:59.080
<v Speaker 2>it up. I was about to ask if you'd seen it,

0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:02.800
<v Speaker 2>but I know the answer that apparently Sherlock Combs is cocaine.

0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:05.600
<v Speaker 2>You spirals out of control and Watson sends him to

0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Vienna to be cured by Sigmund Freud.

0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's to be pretty weird.

0:46:10.280 --> 0:46:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's pretty interesting sounding though too. But they ended

0:46:13.000 --> 0:46:14.600
<v Speaker 2>up making it. I think they just had to pay

0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:15.960
<v Speaker 2>retroactively for it.

0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that's when they've really got you over a barrel.

0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:19.840
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I know.

0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:20.759
<v Speaker 1>But the.

0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:27.680
<v Speaker 2>Copyright ran out finally unambiguously to all Sherlock Combs stuff,

0:46:27.800 --> 0:46:31.880
<v Speaker 2>just this past twenty twenty three, I guess, right, Yeah.

0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:34.320
<v Speaker 1>I think initially it ran out in the UK in

0:46:34.360 --> 0:46:38.280
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and then it was ninety eight in the US.

0:46:38.440 --> 0:46:41.759
<v Speaker 1>But there was a family argument that like, no, he

0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:45.800
<v Speaker 1>wrote these over a long period of time, over decades,

0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:50.560
<v Speaker 1>so like the whole thing needs to go expire by

0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:52.680
<v Speaker 1>the last story he wrote, was their argument.

0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because he was so developed that like he was

0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:58.239
<v Speaker 2>a flat character, and really the character of Sherlock Comes

0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:00.600
<v Speaker 2>that everybody portrays is the final ones that we own

0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:03.279
<v Speaker 2>the copyright too. And I think a judge finally told

0:47:03.280 --> 0:47:06.480
<v Speaker 2>them to go soak their heads, essentially said that what

0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:10.160
<v Speaker 2>they their strategy was a form of extortion. Yeah, so

0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:13.839
<v Speaker 2>they finally lost it. I don't know what they're doing nowadays. Oh,

0:47:13.840 --> 0:47:17.160
<v Speaker 2>I know what they're doing. They're essentially authenticating new stuff

0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:18.880
<v Speaker 2>so you can get their blessing and make it like

0:47:18.920 --> 0:47:22.120
<v Speaker 2>an official Sherlock Holmes mystery that you wrote.

0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:25.880
<v Speaker 1>But that's why something like Will Ferrell and John c

0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:28.919
<v Speaker 1>Riley's Holmes and Watson could come along, right, they could

0:47:28.920 --> 0:47:30.000
<v Speaker 1>just do it all of a sudden.

0:47:30.600 --> 0:47:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I think that was I think they would have had

0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:34.239
<v Speaker 2>to have paid for it because I think it was

0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:35.440
<v Speaker 2>from like twenty eighteen.

0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:40.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so even though yeah, I guess the family won

0:47:40.200 --> 0:47:42.000
<v Speaker 1>that argument then huh.

0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think they lost too many cases. I

0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:46.680
<v Speaker 2>think it was quite near the end of the copyright,

0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.239
<v Speaker 2>I gotcha. Yeah, so I'm sure that they had to

0:47:49.280 --> 0:47:51.359
<v Speaker 2>pay for the use of that, and I'm sure they

0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:52.480
<v Speaker 2>lost money on it.

0:47:53.040 --> 0:47:55.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, I wonder now, I mean, I don't think so

0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:58.920
<v Speaker 1>far we've seen any like abomination where they've you know,

0:47:59.000 --> 0:48:01.799
<v Speaker 1>like they make Mickey Mouse a serial killer and stuff now,

0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:05.600
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, I'm curious to see if someone's going to

0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:08.280
<v Speaker 1>do like a Sherlock Holmes thing where he's the batty.

0:48:08.800 --> 0:48:11.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sure some stuff you should know. Listeners went, Wow,

0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:13.880
<v Speaker 2>that's a good idea, Chuck, It's.

0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:16.799
<v Speaker 1>A really bad idea because people would be pretty angry.

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:17.520
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine.

0:48:17.560 --> 0:48:19.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you don't want to mess with something like that

0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:19.960
<v Speaker 2>he's good.

0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:22.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean Will Ferrell's just now recovering.

0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:26.919
<v Speaker 2>I want to give a couple of shouts out. First

0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:30.520
<v Speaker 2>of all, Kyle, our writer, Kyle helped us out with

0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:33.280
<v Speaker 2>this one, so if we got anything wrong, blame Kyle.

0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:36.160
<v Speaker 2>And then also we heard from friend of the show,

0:48:36.280 --> 0:48:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Richard Fallwall, who wrote in when we first talked about

0:48:39.880 --> 0:48:42.200
<v Speaker 2>doing a Sherlock Holmes episode on some other episode, and

0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:46.520
<v Speaker 2>he's like, yes, do and listen to Stephen Fry's Audible

0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:50.600
<v Speaker 2>collection of all of the Sherlock Holmes cannon works.

0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:51.239
<v Speaker 1>Is it?

0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:54.200
<v Speaker 2>Even if you don't do that, listen to Stephen Fry's

0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:58.720
<v Speaker 2>like introductions to each of the collections. And I listened

0:48:58.719 --> 0:49:00.759
<v Speaker 2>to one of them, and he's right there, amazing, just

0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:04.520
<v Speaker 2>charming interpretations of what's going on in these and the

0:49:04.560 --> 0:49:07.839
<v Speaker 2>way the effect that they had in real life. So

0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:09.720
<v Speaker 2>you can go out and listen to that on audible.

0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Apparently it's seventy two hours long.

0:49:12.560 --> 0:49:15.279
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, Well can you imagine We can vouch and

0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:19.080
<v Speaker 1>say that due to our selects episodes on Saturday. Sometimes

0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:21.320
<v Speaker 1>it intro is the best part for sure.

0:49:22.360 --> 0:49:24.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh and one more thing I want to shout out.

0:49:24.640 --> 0:49:27.200
<v Speaker 2>I guess you haven't seen this either. You have to

0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:30.000
<v Speaker 2>see this, no matter what you think of whatever people

0:49:30.080 --> 0:49:33.600
<v Speaker 2>tell you to watch or read. See mister Holmes eventually

0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:37.759
<v Speaker 2>with Ian McKellen, just the most art house of the

0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Sherlock Holmes movies.

0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:39.840
<v Speaker 1>It's so good.

0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:43.319
<v Speaker 2>But it's about him retired as a beekeeper, which is

0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:44.359
<v Speaker 2>part of the canon too.

0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:46.680
<v Speaker 1>I love Ian McKellen, so I'll check that.

0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:48.399
<v Speaker 2>Out, Okay, but just put it off to the side.

0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:49.959
<v Speaker 2>Don't make that the first one you see.

0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:55.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I think that's it. Chuck Great, Sherlock Holmes. I'm

0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:58.359
<v Speaker 1>gonna I'm gonna watch something. I promise everybody. I'm gonna

0:49:58.360 --> 0:49:58.880
<v Speaker 1>watch something.

0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right in and Chuck know what he should.

0:50:01.120 --> 0:50:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Watch or read something even better?

0:50:03.160 --> 0:50:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, same thing?

0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:04.600
<v Speaker 1>All right?

0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, since Chuck said right, that means it's time

0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:08.600
<v Speaker 2>for a listener mail.

0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Hey guys, on the Anaconda episode, you tried to work

0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:15.840
<v Speaker 1>out how and the heck green Anacon has made it

0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:18.960
<v Speaker 1>to Trinidad when the Caribbean island is separated from Venezuela

0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:22.239
<v Speaker 1>by mere seven miles of ocean water. Well, guys, I'm

0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.000
<v Speaker 1>from Trinidad, so maybe I can help. We can easily

0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:27.920
<v Speaker 1>see Venezuela from certain parts of our country. And that's

0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:30.759
<v Speaker 1>because Trinidad, unlike the other islands of the Caribbean, is

0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:34.360
<v Speaker 1>not connected to the ocean floor. It actually rests on

0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:36.759
<v Speaker 1>the submerged continental shelf that extends from the coastline of

0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:40.560
<v Speaker 1>Venezuela into the Atlantic Ocean. All the other islands in

0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:46.040
<v Speaker 1>the Caribbean Archipelago are volcanic, reaching up from the seafloor,

0:50:46.080 --> 0:50:49.080
<v Speaker 1>but not us. Ours is a continental island that was

0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:52.480
<v Speaker 1>once part of the South American mainland. Essentially, there was

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:55.160
<v Speaker 1>a land bridge between Trinidad and Venezuela as recently as

0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:58.439
<v Speaker 1>the Last Ice Age. As such, our flora and fauna

0:50:58.400 --> 0:51:01.279
<v Speaker 1>are pretty much identical to those found in Venezuela and

0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:05.680
<v Speaker 1>even deeper into South America and hint Anaconda's baby. They

0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:09.000
<v Speaker 1>terrified my childhood because they are in our rainforest and

0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:12.800
<v Speaker 1>big ones that come into town bordering the forest like

0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:16.600
<v Speaker 1>where I lived. Anyway, I stopped the podcast midst stream

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:20.160
<v Speaker 1>to quickly tell Josh in real time your hypothesis was

0:51:20.200 --> 0:51:20.640
<v Speaker 1>spot on.

0:51:21.080 --> 0:51:23.239
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. I love emails like that.

0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:26.120
<v Speaker 1>Warmest regards, and that is from Revel.

0:51:26.640 --> 0:51:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Revel. That was a great, great email and we

0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:33.000
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. Thanks for clearing that up for us. If

0:51:33.000 --> 0:51:34.719
<v Speaker 2>you want to be like Revel, you can send us

0:51:34.760 --> 0:51:41.319
<v Speaker 2>an email too. It's stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:51:41.440 --> 0:51:44.319
<v Speaker 1>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:48.600
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:50.560
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.