1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:00,800 Speaker 1: Thunderstruck. 2 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:01,660 Speaker 2: Adjective. 3 00:00:01,970 --> 00:00:04,610 Speaker 1: Shocked and amazed by the power of fun on Carnival. 4 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,930 Speaker 1: Riding Bolt, the world's first roller coaster at sea. Brian 5 00:00:07,950 --> 00:00:12,590 Speaker 1: got Thunderstruck so hard, his 93-year-old grandmother felt it 3,000 6 00:00:12,590 --> 00:00:15,790 Speaker 1: miles away in Nebraska and immediately booked a cruise. 7 00:00:16,829 --> 00:00:17,409 Speaker 3: Hooray! 8 00:00:17,810 --> 00:00:21,390 Speaker 1: Get Thunderstruck starting at $ 2. 9 00:00:19,950 --> 00:00:21,190 Speaker 2: 89. Carnival. 10 00:00:21,790 --> 00:00:22,870 Speaker 4: Choose fun. 11 00:00:24,350 --> 00:00:26,630 Speaker 1: Cruises are in U.S. dollars per person, double occupancy. Taxes, fees, 12 00:00:26,650 --> 00:00:27,510 Speaker 1: and port expenses are additional. 13 00:00:27,530 --> 00:00:30,090 Speaker 5: Restrictions apply. Full details on Carnival.com. Ships registry Bahamas, Panama. 14 00:00:31,730 --> 00:00:34,710 Speaker 5: We've all felt left out. And for people who move 15 00:00:34,729 --> 00:00:37,229 Speaker 5: to this country, that feeling lasts more than a moment. 16 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:42,930 Speaker 5: We can change that. Learn how at belongingbeginswithus.org. Brought to 17 00:00:42,950 --> 00:00:43,769 Speaker 5: you by the Ad Council. 18 00:00:45,490 --> 00:00:48,390 Speaker 6: I'm Tanya Sam, host of the Money Moves podcast powered 19 00:00:48,409 --> 00:00:51,309 Speaker 6: by Greenwood. This daily podcast will help give you the 20 00:00:51,350 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 6: keys to the kingdom of financial stability, wealth, and abundance. 21 00:00:54,820 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 6: With celebrity guests like Rick Ross, Amanda Seals, Angela Yee, 22 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 6: Roland Martin, J.B. Smooth, and Terrell Owens, tune in to 23 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,060 Speaker 6: learn how to turn liabilities into assets and make your 24 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,979 Speaker 6: money move. Subscribe to the Money Moves podcast powered by 25 00:01:10,020 --> 00:01:13,410 Speaker 6: Greenwood on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 26 00:01:13,770 --> 00:01:14,950 Speaker 7: And make sure you leave a review. 27 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 8: My next guest is Craig Melvin. He's the co-host of 28 00:01:18,380 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 8: the Today Show and the author of the book, Pops, 29 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:23,090 Speaker 8: Learning to be a Son and a Father. 30 00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:24,230 Speaker 5: You may know Craig. 31 00:01:24,250 --> 00:01:26,490 Speaker 8: He's an award-winning news anchor, as I said earlier, on 32 00:01:26,510 --> 00:01:29,310 Speaker 8: the Today Show. You also have seen him on MSNBC 33 00:01:29,350 --> 00:01:31,910 Speaker 8: Live and a host of Dateline. He's on the show 34 00:01:31,930 --> 00:01:34,130 Speaker 8: to discuss this book, Pops, Learning to be a Son 35 00:01:34,190 --> 00:01:36,370 Speaker 8: and a Father. It's the story of all the father 36 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 8: figures in Craig's life, and that includes inspiring men from 37 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,970 Speaker 8: his program or his series called Dad's Got This series. 38 00:01:43,950 --> 00:01:45,690 Speaker 5: On NBC News Today. 39 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 8: These experiences and encounters have shaped Craig's understanding of his 40 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,820 Speaker 8: own role as a dad. And I'm sure I can 41 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 8: be related. We'll have a nice conversation since Father's Day 42 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 8: has recently passed. He has two young children. Please welcome 43 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 8: to Money Making Conversation, my man, Craig Milven. 44 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 5: How you doing, Craig? 45 00:02:01,340 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: Sean, I'm well. I'm well. 46 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 7: Thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy 47 00:02:06,580 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 7: your conversation, so I like to be a part of one. 48 00:02:08,940 --> 00:02:12,310 Speaker 5: Thank you, Romain. Southern boy, South Carolina. Okay. 49 00:02:12,350 --> 00:02:16,250 Speaker 8: There you go. You know, when I see people on 50 00:02:16,290 --> 00:02:18,290 Speaker 8: TV and you're so articulate. 51 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 5: There are no y'alls, there are no accents. 52 00:02:20,540 --> 00:02:22,660 Speaker 2: How does a man come straight out of Columbia? 53 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,260 Speaker 8: And I know Columbia because Steve Harvey and I used 54 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,260 Speaker 8: to go down a lot performing at the town center, 55 00:02:26,650 --> 00:02:28,490 Speaker 8: selling that place out all the time. So I'm very 56 00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:32,410 Speaker 8: familiar with South Carolina, Charleston, that whole low country. There's 57 00:02:32,470 --> 00:02:35,980 Speaker 8: no low country in your... Tone, what's going on here? 58 00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 8: How you break that low country accent? 59 00:02:39,250 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: It's funny because I never had it. 60 00:02:41,490 --> 00:02:46,870 Speaker 7: My mom, you'll appreciate this, growing up in Houston, the 61 00:02:46,889 --> 00:02:48,650 Speaker 7: way that you grew up. My mom grew up in 62 00:02:48,669 --> 00:02:51,950 Speaker 7: the projects and first in the family to go to 63 00:02:52,010 --> 00:02:54,790 Speaker 7: college and first in the family to get a graduate degree. 64 00:02:55,410 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: So when we came along, she wanted to expose us. 65 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,429 Speaker 7: To things and places that she had not been exposed to. 66 00:03:05,030 --> 00:03:10,060 Speaker 7: And consequently, I think I was probably 14 or 15 67 00:03:10,060 --> 00:03:12,140 Speaker 7: And she had us. 68 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,060 Speaker 2: Take part in these oratorical contests. Right. 69 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,019 Speaker 7: And that was kind of how it started. 70 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: So I. 71 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 7: Took some public speaking classes and then these oratorical contests. 72 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 7: And then the next thing you knew, I had what 73 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 7: they like to call in. 74 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: The business a nondescript dialect. 75 00:03:30,590 --> 00:03:30,780 Speaker 4: Yeah. 76 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:35,230 Speaker 2: You can't really tell based on listening to me where 77 00:03:35,310 --> 00:03:38,850 Speaker 2: I'm from. It's a blessing now. When I was growing up, 78 00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:43,530 Speaker 2: it was always, he's talking white. Absolutely. He talks like 79 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:48,220 Speaker 2: a white boy. So it's, you know, it was a curse. 80 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:49,060 Speaker 2: Now it's a blessing. 81 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,780 Speaker 8: Well, you know, it's interesting because I knew in my 82 00:03:51,820 --> 00:03:54,260 Speaker 8: middle school, I remember my teacher used to always ask 83 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 8: me to read, used to always ask me to read. And, 84 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 8: you know, people talk about bullying and, you know, when 85 00:03:59,020 --> 00:04:01,290 Speaker 8: you people talk about They call you snowflake. 86 00:04:01,510 --> 00:04:02,930 Speaker 5: That was a form of bullying. 87 00:04:03,010 --> 00:04:06,010 Speaker 8: And so it's popularized now because people are willing to 88 00:04:06,050 --> 00:04:07,750 Speaker 8: talk about it. But we all grew up in some 89 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 8: form of physical or mental abuse from high school kids 90 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 8: or people in the neighborhood. 91 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:14,339 Speaker 5: And I remember. 92 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,610 Speaker 8: This girl, she made such a big deal that I 93 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,890 Speaker 8: was always asked to read that it almost, I have 94 00:04:19,910 --> 00:04:23,729 Speaker 8: to say, traumatized me because I went exactly the opposite. 95 00:04:23,890 --> 00:04:25,830 Speaker 8: I wanted to talk. I wanted to say ain't. I 96 00:04:25,870 --> 00:04:28,490 Speaker 8: wanted to slur my words. I wanted to fit in. 97 00:04:29,050 --> 00:04:31,740 Speaker 8: And so with you, I bring that story up because 98 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,620 Speaker 8: you talk about it because you was hit with it. 99 00:04:33,860 --> 00:04:35,980 Speaker 8: You was hit, you know, talking wide. You didn't want 100 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,740 Speaker 8: to act wide. You were calling you a snowflake. What 101 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:42,539 Speaker 8: kept you focused? What kept you from veering off like 102 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 8: I veered off? I veered off and I said, hey, man, 103 00:04:44,620 --> 00:04:46,190 Speaker 8: I want to fit in and not be me. 104 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:49,610 Speaker 7: You know, I think it was, when I write about 105 00:04:49,630 --> 00:04:52,550 Speaker 7: it in the book, my mother, my mother really, Rashad, 106 00:04:52,589 --> 00:04:55,990 Speaker 7: I mean, she kept us on the straight and narrow. 107 00:04:56,110 --> 00:05:01,570 Speaker 7: At the time, we resented the strictness. I mean, my mom, 108 00:05:02,070 --> 00:05:04,850 Speaker 7: she knew all of our friends. She knew all of 109 00:05:04,910 --> 00:05:08,910 Speaker 7: the parents. We weren't allowed to stay out past, you know, 110 00:05:09,370 --> 00:05:12,930 Speaker 7: during the week, maybe nine o'clock, maybe on the weekends 111 00:05:13,029 --> 00:05:15,870 Speaker 7: when kids were going to parties and having fun. I 112 00:05:15,910 --> 00:05:19,260 Speaker 7: was doing oratorical contests and activities. 113 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,580 Speaker 2: And I went to in high school. I think I 114 00:05:22,620 --> 00:05:23,460 Speaker 2: probably went. 115 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,740 Speaker 7: To maybe three high school football games on Friday night. 116 00:05:26,820 --> 00:05:28,580 Speaker 7: I just I didn't I grew up on a very 117 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:29,260 Speaker 7: tight leash. 118 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: Right. 119 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,710 Speaker 7: And part of it was my mother overcompensating for my 120 00:05:33,750 --> 00:05:35,790 Speaker 7: father not being the kind of dad that he should 121 00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:39,029 Speaker 7: have been. But part of it was mom knew she 122 00:05:39,070 --> 00:05:41,740 Speaker 7: knew back then, I think. Kind of what it took. 123 00:05:41,750 --> 00:05:44,300 Speaker 2: She was a schoolteacher. Then she went into administration. 124 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:49,580 Speaker 7: She knew what it took to shape and mold young 125 00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 7: black boys, especially. 126 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: Right. And that was it. Had it not been for her, 127 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: had I grown up in another house, we wouldn't be 128 00:05:56,660 --> 00:05:57,900 Speaker 2: having this conversation right now. 129 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 8: Well, you know, in writing your book, you know, the 130 00:05:59,820 --> 00:06:02,580 Speaker 8: book we're talking about, interviewing Craig Melvin, his book, Pops, 131 00:06:02,660 --> 00:06:04,820 Speaker 8: Learning to Be a Son and a Father. Is it 132 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:08,660 Speaker 8: because of the fact that your father wasn't there, that 133 00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:12,690 Speaker 8: she may be overcompensated? and wanted to make sure you 134 00:06:13,089 --> 00:06:15,610 Speaker 8: had a better life or you pursued the options, even 135 00:06:15,630 --> 00:06:17,490 Speaker 8: though I knew she went to college. I think at 136 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:20,190 Speaker 8: the age of 22 is when she became pregnant with you. 137 00:06:21,290 --> 00:06:23,859 Speaker 8: Talk about that in the middle, because as we talk 138 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:26,340 Speaker 8: about trying to shape you because of the fact that 139 00:06:26,380 --> 00:06:29,340 Speaker 8: you've been shaped by a lot of people, especially the stories. 140 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 8: We're going to talk about the prison incident when you 141 00:06:31,660 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 8: were out at Camp Grace, how that really kind of 142 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,870 Speaker 8: started you in this direction of humanizing all men, especially 143 00:06:38,250 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 8: men who are incarcerated. Talk about your mom and her role. 144 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 5: Versus your dad role. 145 00:06:43,220 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 8: Because you mentioned it just a little bit, but that 146 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 8: centers around us getting into the story and your father 147 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:49,580 Speaker 8: changing his life at the age of 67. 148 00:06:49,580 --> 00:06:54,260 Speaker 7: Yeah, mom had to play the role of mom and 149 00:06:54,310 --> 00:06:59,690 Speaker 7: dad for the better part of my childhood. It was 150 00:06:59,730 --> 00:07:02,650 Speaker 7: a role that she was, you know, she was fortunately 151 00:07:02,710 --> 00:07:05,870 Speaker 7: well prepared for it because she had to take care 152 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 7: of her three younger siblings. when she was in college 153 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,180 Speaker 7: and her father skipped out on the family, ended up 154 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:18,250 Speaker 7: essentially dying on the streets in squalor. But no, a mom, 155 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:25,190 Speaker 7: because my father was not physically present as often as 156 00:07:25,270 --> 00:07:27,180 Speaker 7: I would have liked and my younger brother would have 157 00:07:27,210 --> 00:07:29,740 Speaker 7: liked and my older brother as well, mom stepped in 158 00:07:30,020 --> 00:07:31,500 Speaker 7: to fill the gap. 159 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,420 Speaker 2: She filled the void. And not just being present in 160 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:34,940 Speaker 2: the sense of. 161 00:07:37,130 --> 00:07:41,490 Speaker 7: Little League games or soccer games or concerts, not just 162 00:07:41,610 --> 00:07:46,930 Speaker 7: physically present, but emotionally present, spiritually present. I mean, the 163 00:07:46,970 --> 00:07:51,690 Speaker 7: relationship that I have with God is because of my mother's. 164 00:07:51,410 --> 00:07:57,570 Speaker 2: Relationship with God. So it was divine intervention. 165 00:07:57,690 --> 00:08:01,210 Speaker 7: Had I had any other mother, things would not have 166 00:08:01,490 --> 00:08:05,810 Speaker 7: gone the way that they did. But, you know, it's also, 167 00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:07,970 Speaker 7: and I write about it in the book, as you know, 168 00:08:07,990 --> 00:08:10,210 Speaker 7: and I do appreciate the fact that you read the book. 169 00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:12,100 Speaker 7: You'd be surprised how often we talk to people about 170 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 7: books and they haven't read word one. But I can 171 00:08:16,540 --> 00:08:18,700 Speaker 7: tell you read the whole thing. And I write about 172 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,340 Speaker 7: it in the book. My father, I asked him during 173 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 7: the course of my interviews with him for the book, 174 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 7: I said, Pops, what was the most money you ever wasted? 175 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:27,739 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 176 00:08:28,530 --> 00:08:31,850 Speaker 7: Without missing a beat. He said it was about $ 1, 500 177 00:08:31,090 --> 00:08:33,910 Speaker 7: back in 1986. I said, well, that was a lot 178 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 7: of money back then. What'd you spend that money on? 179 00:08:35,780 --> 00:08:38,220 Speaker 7: He said, that's how much it cost to put my 180 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 7: daddy in the ground. 181 00:08:39,740 --> 00:08:41,060 Speaker 2: And in that. 182 00:08:40,940 --> 00:08:46,260 Speaker 7: Moment, I realized that while I had been frustrated by 183 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,820 Speaker 7: the lack of relationship I had with my dad, it 184 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,490 Speaker 7: was exponentially better than the relationship he had with his 185 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,329 Speaker 7: own father. He didn't even know who his dad was 186 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:56,370 Speaker 7: until he was almost a teenager. 187 00:08:56,750 --> 00:08:57,710 Speaker 2: So it was. 188 00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:02,650 Speaker 7: It was wholly unrealistic of me to expect him to 189 00:09:02,730 --> 00:09:07,530 Speaker 7: be the kind of dad that I had come to idolize. 190 00:09:07,550 --> 00:09:10,459 Speaker 7: He couldn't be it because he hadn't seen it. 191 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,370 Speaker 2: And you can't be something. Scratch that. It's really hard 192 00:09:14,429 --> 00:09:14,870 Speaker 2: to be. 193 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 7: Something if you haven't seen it, if you haven't been 194 00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:19,179 Speaker 7: exposed to it. 195 00:09:19,179 --> 00:09:20,620 Speaker 2: So that's what my dad was up against. 196 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 9: It's finally here, the season of celebration. And no matter 197 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,980 Speaker 9: how you celebrate with family and friends, whether you're preparing 198 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,660 Speaker 9: for Reyes Magos or Karamu, lighting the menorah, or going 199 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 9: to Midnight Mass, Kohl's has just what you need to 200 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 9: make those traditions special. Plus, you'll find gifts for all 201 00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:51,030 Speaker 9: your loved ones. We'll be right back. or treat them 202 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:55,030 Speaker 9: to everyone's favorite activewear from top brands like Nike, Adidas, 203 00:09:55,150 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 9: and Under Armour. And in the spirit of giving, Kohl's 204 00:09:58,510 --> 00:10:03,220 Speaker 9: Cares is donating $ 8 million to local nonprofits nationwide committed 205 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:06,300 Speaker 9: to the health and well-being of our communities. No matter 206 00:10:06,380 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 9: how you celebrate, when you shop at Kohl's, you're right 207 00:10:09,620 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 9: where you belong. So this season, give with all your 208 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 9: heart with great gifts from Kohl's or Kohl's.com. 209 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:20,140 Speaker 10: And we're live here outside the Perez family home just 210 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 10: waiting for the... And there they go. 211 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: Almost on time this morning. 212 00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:24,980 Speaker 10: Mom is coming out. 213 00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:26,380 Speaker 5: The front door strong with a. 214 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 10: Double-arm kid carry. Looks like dad has the bags. Daughter 215 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,860 Speaker 10: is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag 216 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 10: wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom 217 00:10:38,460 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 10: has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. 218 00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 10: And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about 219 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 10: 9 or 10, has secured herself in the booster seat. 220 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 10: Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but 221 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:53,900 Speaker 10: looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still 222 00:10:53,940 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 10: on the. 223 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:55,300 Speaker 2: Roof of the car. 224 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 3: And there it goes. 225 00:10:57,820 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 4: Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. 226 00:11:01,090 --> 00:11:03,550 Speaker 4: Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. 227 00:11:03,790 --> 00:11:05,550 Speaker 4: Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the 228 00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:07,460 Speaker 4: right seat for their age and size. Learn more at 229 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,540 Speaker 4: NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. 230 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: Visit NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. 231 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 5: Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. 232 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic 233 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:23,219 Speaker 3: of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You 234 00:11:23,260 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face 235 00:11:26,330 --> 00:11:29,730 Speaker 3: of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They 236 00:11:29,770 --> 00:11:32,900 Speaker 3: see treasure in pebbles. They see a windy path that 237 00:11:32,980 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: could lead to adventure. And they see you, their fearless 238 00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:38,980 Speaker 3: guide through this fascinating world. 239 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,359 Speaker 4: Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. 240 00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:45,620 Speaker 3: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 241 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:46,340 Speaker 3: the Ad Council. 242 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,210 Speaker 8: Well, you know, when I read the book, you know, 243 00:11:49,230 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 8: I heard shotgun house. Okay, I grew up in it. 244 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:55,620 Speaker 8: I was born in a shotgun house. Two-bedroom shotgun house. 245 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,340 Speaker 8: A lot of people, if you listen to shotgun house, 246 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,990 Speaker 8: open to the front door, shoot a shotgun out. 247 00:12:00,770 --> 00:12:02,709 Speaker 2: The front back door. Don't hit anything. 248 00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:06,650 Speaker 8: That's a shotgun house, okay? You referenced pig feet. Grew 249 00:12:06,670 --> 00:12:09,340 Speaker 8: up with pig feet, my man. Hey, I wouldn't touch 250 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,220 Speaker 8: them now, Greg. 251 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:10,950 Speaker 2: I wouldn't touch them now. 252 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 8: But pig feasts were part of my lifestyle. And so 253 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,830 Speaker 8: that's the Southern. I'm from Houston, Texas. I'm from the South. 254 00:12:19,470 --> 00:12:21,270 Speaker 8: It was a lifestyle that was normal to me, but 255 00:12:21,330 --> 00:12:24,750 Speaker 8: it was also a community lifestyle of people taking care 256 00:12:24,770 --> 00:12:25,290 Speaker 8: of each other. 257 00:12:25,630 --> 00:12:26,870 Speaker 5: And that was really important. 258 00:12:26,929 --> 00:12:29,890 Speaker 8: Not only your dad, even though there were some missteps, 259 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,460 Speaker 8: there were still people there to take care of him, 260 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,580 Speaker 8: to make sure he was focused, to shout at him 261 00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:36,700 Speaker 8: as he became an adult. 262 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 5: There were people in the community. 263 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:42,190 Speaker 8: That's really important in this book that no matter what, 264 00:12:42,370 --> 00:12:45,980 Speaker 8: there's some form of family tied to your story and 265 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 8: the people in your life. 266 00:12:47,660 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 5: Talk about that. 267 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 7: You know, it's funny because long before people started talking 268 00:12:53,980 --> 00:12:57,699 Speaker 7: about it, taking a village, uh, to rear a child, 269 00:12:58,050 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 7: I had a village. It wasn't called that back in 270 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,420 Speaker 7: the 80s in South Carolina, back in the 80s and 271 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 7: 90s when. 272 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: I grew up, but I had a village. 273 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,030 Speaker 7: And yes, there were a number of men who played 274 00:13:11,050 --> 00:13:12,110 Speaker 7: the role of dad along the way. 275 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:15,309 Speaker 2: My Uncle James, my Uncle Jake, my Uncle Frank. 276 00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:20,010 Speaker 7: But there were also a lot of women that played 277 00:13:20,030 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 7: the part as well. I was disciplined, and I think 278 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,740 Speaker 7: that's the politically correct term. I was disciplined by more 279 00:13:28,820 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 7: women growing up than men, whether it was my mom 280 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:34,940 Speaker 7: or one of my aunts or my grandma. I spent 281 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,300 Speaker 7: a lot of time with my two grandmothers growing up. 282 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,209 Speaker 7: And they really shaped me in myriad ways that I 283 00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:44,089 Speaker 7: didn't fully appreciate until I was older. 284 00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:48,090 Speaker 2: Right. And then after that, I had coaches along the way. 285 00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:50,210 Speaker 2: I always... God always. 286 00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:56,460 Speaker 7: Blessed me with people along the road that gave me 287 00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:59,620 Speaker 7: a little part of something that I was able to 288 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 7: take and build on. It's difficult for young Black men especially, 289 00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:10,030 Speaker 7: it's difficult to learn how to carry yourself in this world. 290 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:17,740 Speaker 7: without examples of it. And I had lots of examples, thankfully, 291 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 7: along the way. But the reality is, as you know, Sean, 292 00:14:20,570 --> 00:14:22,350 Speaker 7: A lot of kids don't have that. A lot of 293 00:14:22,390 --> 00:14:22,930 Speaker 7: kids don't. 294 00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:25,950 Speaker 2: They just, you know, through no fault of their own, mind. 295 00:14:25,770 --> 00:14:29,830 Speaker 7: You, they don't have a mother or a father or 296 00:14:29,850 --> 00:14:34,150 Speaker 7: an uncle or an aunt to take their hand on 297 00:14:34,190 --> 00:14:37,590 Speaker 7: this journey of life. And so they end up finding 298 00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:41,950 Speaker 7: role models that should not be held up or that 299 00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:44,510 Speaker 7: should not be on a pedestal. And they begin to 300 00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:45,500 Speaker 7: emulate them. 301 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,780 Speaker 8: You know, the thing I really like about your book 302 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,690 Speaker 8: is that Sometimes, because my father was a truck driver, 303 00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:55,270 Speaker 8: you know, so, you know, when he wasn't driving trucks, 304 00:14:55,290 --> 00:15:00,050 Speaker 8: you know, he wasn't really connected to me. I can 305 00:15:00,090 --> 00:15:02,790 Speaker 8: tell you he was my father. I can tell you that. 306 00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:05,050 Speaker 8: My mom was there for me. My mom pushed me. 307 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 8: My mom always felt I could be somebody special in life. 308 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,500 Speaker 8: When your father showed up for your ball game, that memory, 309 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:13,780 Speaker 8: you don't know if you got a hit or home 310 00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:16,380 Speaker 8: run or you got struck out every time you went 311 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,380 Speaker 8: up the bat, but you remember that moment. And then 312 00:15:18,390 --> 00:15:21,580 Speaker 8: when your mom rescued you when you thought you had 313 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 8: entered early fatherhood, you know, those are two moments that really, 314 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:31,619 Speaker 8: I bring up those two moments, Craig, because despite of 315 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:33,260 Speaker 8: all the things we do in our life, there are 316 00:15:33,330 --> 00:15:38,370 Speaker 8: always memories that really, some haunt people, some inspire people. 317 00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:41,830 Speaker 8: Your father showing up for your game and your mom 318 00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:45,010 Speaker 8: basically coming to the rescue because she did something that 319 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:46,770 Speaker 8: enabled you to relax, right? 320 00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: Talk about those two key. 321 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 5: Moments of parenting. Even though your father wasn't there, that 322 00:15:52,140 --> 00:15:52,900 Speaker 5: was a key. 323 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 8: Parenting moment that he provided for you that stays with 324 00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:58,700 Speaker 8: you today and probably carries into your parenting with your 325 00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 8: children today. And then your mom being there for you 326 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 8: at a moment of doubt, frustration, fear, but both of 327 00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:06,460 Speaker 8: them were there at different times. 328 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 7: I mean, you're talking about the part of my book 329 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:14,860 Speaker 7: where I. 330 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,060 Speaker 2: Almost became a teenage father. 331 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 7: I was almost a statistic at the age of 14. 332 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: No less. I made a bad choice. I made a 333 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,340 Speaker 2: bad choice. And you know what? 334 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 7: I write about it because I wrote about it because 335 00:16:27,340 --> 00:16:30,180 Speaker 7: I wanted people to understand there. 336 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: But. 337 00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:35,300 Speaker 7: For the grace of God, go I. And I think 338 00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:37,530 Speaker 7: a lot of folks can relate to this idea that, 339 00:16:38,050 --> 00:16:41,030 Speaker 7: you know, there's that night or sometimes that day, but 340 00:16:41,130 --> 00:16:42,750 Speaker 7: usually it's that night. 341 00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: Where you went left, but you could have gone right. 342 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:46,100 Speaker 11: Right. 343 00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 7: And had you made a different decision, it would have 344 00:16:51,260 --> 00:16:54,220 Speaker 7: altered the course of your life in a dramatic way. 345 00:16:55,420 --> 00:16:58,100 Speaker 2: That almost happened to me. I got lucky. 346 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,980 Speaker 7: And at that point in my life, I didn't have 347 00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:06,330 Speaker 7: much of a relationship with my father. I was afraid 348 00:17:06,380 --> 00:17:10,230 Speaker 7: of my mother, definitely afraid. So I couldn't talk to 349 00:17:10,270 --> 00:17:13,889 Speaker 7: her about it. And it was a situation where, you know, 350 00:17:13,930 --> 00:17:16,770 Speaker 7: this young lady was convinced she was pregnant. And I 351 00:17:17,130 --> 00:17:19,870 Speaker 7: like I had to I had to do something. This 352 00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:23,470 Speaker 7: was not one of those situations where inaction was an option. Right. 353 00:17:24,130 --> 00:17:26,060 Speaker 2: And and I write in the book about how I 354 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:27,139 Speaker 2: went to my my aunt. 355 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 7: And it was my aunt that finally convinced me that 356 00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:32,140 Speaker 7: I had no choice but to talk to my mother. Right. 357 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: But my mom has always been. 358 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,460 Speaker 7: Long before we started calling people fixers, my mom was 359 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,550 Speaker 7: a fixer. That obviously was an extreme example, but there 360 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:46,210 Speaker 7: were so many other times in my life where I 361 00:17:46,270 --> 00:17:48,609 Speaker 7: thought I was out of options. I didn't know what 362 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:50,750 Speaker 7: I was going to do. And I prayed to God 363 00:17:50,869 --> 00:17:53,670 Speaker 7: and put trust in Betty Jo Melvin. And Betty Jo 364 00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 7: Melvin always came through and still does now, mind you, 365 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,540 Speaker 7: in a different way. My dad wrote about that part 366 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 7: in the book where he showed up at my little 367 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 7: league game And the memory stayed with me because it 368 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,540 Speaker 7: was so rare to that point. My dad, and again, 369 00:18:11,619 --> 00:18:15,270 Speaker 7: now looking back on it, knowing what we know about addiction, 370 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,310 Speaker 7: about it being a disease and not a weakness, I 371 00:18:18,350 --> 00:18:22,330 Speaker 7: understand why he wasn't there. I understand why he had 372 00:18:22,450 --> 00:18:25,790 Speaker 7: walled himself off from our family and society at large. 373 00:18:25,810 --> 00:18:27,929 Speaker 2: But back then... I was a kid. 374 00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 7: You know, I was a kid who wanted my dad 375 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 7: to be proud of me and see me and certainly 376 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 7: watch my Little League games. And so when he showed 377 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 7: up that evening and I saw him down the third 378 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,550 Speaker 7: baseline there on the fence, it's a memory that stayed 379 00:18:42,590 --> 00:18:45,050 Speaker 7: with me because it was so rare. That being said, 380 00:18:45,109 --> 00:18:48,810 Speaker 7: now he's everywhere. Like, you know, he was up two 381 00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:51,570 Speaker 7: weeks ago. My son had a soccer game. My dad 382 00:18:51,609 --> 00:18:55,210 Speaker 7: was right there with me on the sideline. And 30 383 00:18:55,210 --> 00:18:58,070 Speaker 7: seconds in, my boy hadn't scored a goal all season. 384 00:18:58,070 --> 00:19:02,950 Speaker 2: 30 seconds in, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, score. 385 00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:04,609 Speaker 2: First goal of the game. 386 00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:07,590 Speaker 7: And me and my pops are high-fiving like he had 387 00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:09,250 Speaker 7: just won a green jacket at Augusta. 388 00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:12,710 Speaker 2: Yes. 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Brought to you by the United States 406 00:20:11,950 --> 00:20:14,690 Speaker 3: Forest Service and the Ad Council. 407 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,899 Speaker 5: You know, um, it was, the book is, um, an 408 00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 5: emotional book. 409 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,179 Speaker 8: I would say emotional because I told people when I 410 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 8: get a book like this, I have to slow read 411 00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:52,550 Speaker 8: it because sometimes they hit points where I go, Oh, 412 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:54,130 Speaker 8: I'm about to, I'm about to go there. 413 00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:55,889 Speaker 5: I'm not, let me finish this moment. 414 00:20:56,530 --> 00:21:00,230 Speaker 8: And, um, cause I remember a moment with my dad, um, 415 00:21:00,230 --> 00:21:03,510 Speaker 8: 1992 when I owned a comedy club and my dad 416 00:21:03,550 --> 00:21:06,570 Speaker 8: had never, ever been to anything I've been. 417 00:21:06,730 --> 00:21:09,169 Speaker 5: And he just showed up at the comedy club and, uh, 418 00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 5: It was sold out. And I looked in the library. 419 00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 8: I said, what you doing here, dad? He go, I 420 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 8: come to see my son. And he looked around. 421 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 2: He looked. 422 00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:21,940 Speaker 5: Wow, this you? This you? This you? And I went, yes, sir. Yes, sir. 423 00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:23,530 Speaker 5: Because I always said sir to my dad. 424 00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:30,590 Speaker 8: And he said, I'm proud of you, son. And like 425 00:21:30,670 --> 00:21:32,910 Speaker 8: I said, because that's what the book did to me 426 00:21:32,970 --> 00:21:36,859 Speaker 8: as a dad. Because when you start talking about incarceration, 427 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,659 Speaker 8: And you talk about, remember you said earlier, right turn, 428 00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:43,899 Speaker 8: left turn, those turns. I always say that when I 429 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 8: was in college, you know, you played as a fraternity. 430 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:49,270 Speaker 5: I played Jamaica sci-fi. And you always do stupid things. 431 00:21:49,380 --> 00:21:51,490 Speaker 8: I remember the big brothers said, we want some plants. 432 00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:56,210 Speaker 5: Well, we didn't have no money. And so I remember this. 433 00:21:55,450 --> 00:21:58,210 Speaker 8: Giant open field where they had plants back in the day. 434 00:21:58,750 --> 00:22:01,189 Speaker 8: And me and my line brothers, we went and stole 435 00:22:01,230 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 8: these plants, man. I mean, if you look back on it, Craig, 436 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 8: From the freeway, you would have seen us running across 437 00:22:07,340 --> 00:22:10,700 Speaker 8: this field with these plants, okay? So anybody could have went, 438 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 8: what are those black dudes, boys, doing running with all 439 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:14,699 Speaker 8: these giant plants? 440 00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:17,300 Speaker 2: And I had a little Fiat. 441 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:20,169 Speaker 8: X19, which is a two-seater, and the truck was in 442 00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:22,850 Speaker 8: the front. So I had to put the plants in 443 00:22:22,869 --> 00:22:25,690 Speaker 8: the front, and it was blocking my windshield. So all 444 00:22:26,590 --> 00:22:28,710 Speaker 8: along the way, I could have stopped and stopped by 445 00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:31,230 Speaker 8: the police and been incarcerated. And my life could have 446 00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:33,710 Speaker 8: changed on that right turn, left turn that you were 447 00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:37,490 Speaker 8: talking about earlier. You are meeting men who've done something 448 00:22:37,570 --> 00:22:40,310 Speaker 8: far worse than what I've talked about, but they have 449 00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:43,230 Speaker 8: made a mistake. And sometimes because they've made a mistake, 450 00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:45,210 Speaker 8: we don't give them a second chance because we feel 451 00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:47,500 Speaker 8: that they are unworthy of that second chance. 452 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,980 Speaker 5: And then in your book, you talk about, guess what? 453 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 5: They are fathers, too. 454 00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 8: Let's talk about that journey of you doing a story. 455 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,939 Speaker 8: I think basically changed your life. And it started with 456 00:22:58,960 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 8: Camp Grace. 457 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,659 Speaker 7: Yeah, it was one of the most impactful stories I've 458 00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:05,460 Speaker 7: ever done. There's a, and I don't even remember how 459 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:08,700 Speaker 7: we found out about this camp, but I was probably 460 00:23:08,740 --> 00:23:13,310 Speaker 7: reading some article in an obscure publication about this summer 461 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:20,090 Speaker 7: camp at a maximum security prison in California, Salinas State 462 00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:23,810 Speaker 7: Valley Prison is the name of the facility. And for 463 00:23:24,210 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 7: one week every summer, they bring in about a dozen 464 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,230 Speaker 7: or so kids to basically have a camp experience with 465 00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:37,209 Speaker 7: their dads. I mean, you know, arts and crafts and 466 00:23:37,609 --> 00:23:40,310 Speaker 7: they play games and they sing songs and they do 467 00:23:40,350 --> 00:23:42,649 Speaker 7: all the stuff that you would do at a camp. 468 00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:45,330 Speaker 7: I mean, these kids are between the ages of, you know, 469 00:23:45,410 --> 00:23:46,990 Speaker 7: seven or eight and 15 or 16. 470 00:23:46,970 --> 00:23:47,170 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 471 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,700 Speaker 7: And the guys who are part of the program have 472 00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 7: to exhibit good behavior for a full year. The camp 473 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,190 Speaker 7: is a privilege. And I went out and spent some 474 00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:05,290 Speaker 7: time of talking to these guys. And it ended up 475 00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:09,010 Speaker 7: being just an emotional day because these are men, first 476 00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:11,570 Speaker 7: of all, most of them are not going to be 477 00:24:11,609 --> 00:24:14,530 Speaker 7: getting out of prison. I mean, some of them have 478 00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:20,290 Speaker 7: been convicted of doing some pretty heinous things. But the 479 00:24:20,330 --> 00:24:23,690 Speaker 7: two women that started the camp, both of their husbands 480 00:24:23,730 --> 00:24:27,990 Speaker 7: were incarcerated and consequently weren't really a part. 481 00:24:27,970 --> 00:24:29,790 Speaker 2: Of the child's lives. 482 00:24:31,140 --> 00:24:33,220 Speaker 7: They would get the occasional visit, you know, on a 483 00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 7: weekend and you've got the glass. But they weren't able 484 00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:38,449 Speaker 7: to really be a part of the child's life. So 485 00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:40,109 Speaker 7: they came up with this idea for a camp. And 486 00:24:40,170 --> 00:24:41,889 Speaker 7: I talked to one of the guys out there and 487 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:43,310 Speaker 7: I asked him the question. I knew a lot of 488 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:45,270 Speaker 7: people were going to be asking when they watched or 489 00:24:45,330 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 7: read the story. How can someone accused of some of 490 00:24:51,980 --> 00:24:56,050 Speaker 7: the things these guys were accused of? in what universe 491 00:24:56,190 --> 00:25:02,060 Speaker 7: do they deserve the right to spend time with a child? 492 00:25:02,740 --> 00:25:05,730 Speaker 7: And without missing a beat, he said to me, tears 493 00:25:05,790 --> 00:25:10,290 Speaker 7: in his eyes, they might be right. I may not 494 00:25:10,330 --> 00:25:12,910 Speaker 7: deserve it, but you know what, Craig? My kids do. 495 00:25:14,190 --> 00:25:16,430 Speaker 7: My kids deserve to know their father. They didn't do 496 00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:21,540 Speaker 7: anything wrong. They didn't make any bad choices. And his 497 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:23,699 Speaker 7: larger point, and I think this was just as valid, 498 00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:28,220 Speaker 7: if we're serious about stopping the prison pipeline that we 499 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,860 Speaker 7: always talk about, then we need to make sure that kids. 500 00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 2: of incarcerated individuals, have relationships with them. 501 00:25:35,460 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 7: He spent a fair amount of his time talking to 502 00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:42,609 Speaker 7: his daughter about choices, making good choices, not ending up 503 00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:44,490 Speaker 7: where he ended up. 504 00:25:44,690 --> 00:25:46,350 Speaker 2: It's a fantastic program and it moved me. 505 00:25:46,869 --> 00:25:50,409 Speaker 7: It also moved me, Rashawn, because my grandmother, and it's 506 00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:52,030 Speaker 7: the first line in the book, not to give away 507 00:25:52,090 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 7: too much, but My grandmother, now when I knew. 508 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 12: Her, she was going to church, at church, or coming 509 00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 12: home from church. 510 00:26:02,420 --> 00:26:07,030 Speaker 2: She only loved the Lord. Apparently, long before I came along. 511 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,530 Speaker 5: Okay, well, Craig, let's just say she's a bootlegger. 512 00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:10,830 Speaker 8: I don't want to give away no more than that. 513 00:26:10,869 --> 00:26:12,230 Speaker 5: Just say she's a bootlegger. I don't want to give 514 00:26:12,250 --> 00:26:13,370 Speaker 5: away the earlier part, okay? 515 00:26:13,609 --> 00:26:16,090 Speaker 2: She's a bootlegger. She was a bootlegger. She was a 516 00:26:16,090 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: bootlegger and got a second chance. Yes, she did. 517 00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 7: And had she not gotten a second chance, who's to 518 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 7: say whether I would be here right now, you know? 519 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 8: But here's the thing I want to point out about that. Now, 520 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,100 Speaker 8: his grandmother was in the same jail that Martha Stewart 521 00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:34,419 Speaker 8: was in. 522 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 5: So she got how many chances that she's got, okay? 523 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:40,740 Speaker 5: But in the same facility now. 524 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,180 Speaker 8: And so when I read the book, and like I said, 525 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 8: it's an emotional journey because it's your story. But it's 526 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 8: a relatable story because I remember when my younger brother 527 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,300 Speaker 8: was incarcerated in California, and glass talking. And I was 528 00:26:56,340 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 8: in tears. And he told me he couldn't cry. He said, 529 00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:01,660 Speaker 8: I wish I can't cry. 530 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:03,460 Speaker 5: They can't. He said, I can't. 531 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:05,820 Speaker 8: And my nickname is Ricky. He said, Ricky, I can't cry. 532 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,020 Speaker 8: Because they see me crying out here, I pay a 533 00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:11,940 Speaker 8: price when I go back inside. And in that book, 534 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 8: you know, the gentleman you interviewed, he said, look, he said, 535 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,900 Speaker 8: thank God I have a cell by myself. Because now 536 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,300 Speaker 8: I can cry. And so I love the fact that 537 00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 8: you were humanizing people because we see the violent sides 538 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,460 Speaker 8: and nobody's trying to downplay that. But we have made mistakes. 539 00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:32,660 Speaker 8: There are people on the other side of this that 540 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 8: have to deal with it emotionally. 541 00:27:34,060 --> 00:27:34,830 Speaker 5: These are kids. 542 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,530 Speaker 8: And like one of them said, look, it's all right 543 00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:41,590 Speaker 8: early on when you're playing cards and you're playing catch. 544 00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:45,770 Speaker 8: But when it becomes teens, the conversation becomes different. And 545 00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:46,389 Speaker 8: that's what. 546 00:27:46,270 --> 00:27:47,270 Speaker 5: Fatherhood is all about. 547 00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:50,050 Speaker 8: Which leads to your whole life of being a father, 548 00:27:50,369 --> 00:27:53,290 Speaker 8: being connected to your dad, and now being a present-day father. 549 00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:54,450 Speaker 5: Let's talk about that, Craig. 550 00:27:55,450 --> 00:28:01,660 Speaker 7: You know, I think that you can be shaped by 551 00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:05,660 Speaker 7: negative examples just as much as you can be shaped 552 00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:08,379 Speaker 7: by positive examples. In fact, I think in some instances, maybe. 553 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: Even more so. 554 00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:13,550 Speaker 7: So, you know, growing up, I didn't know the kind 555 00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 7: of man that I wanted to be. 556 00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:17,820 Speaker 2: I didn't certainly know the kind of father that I 557 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:18,479 Speaker 2: wanted to be. 558 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 7: But up until a few years ago, I knew I 559 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,100 Speaker 7: didn't want to be anything like my dad. 560 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 5: Yes. 561 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 7: And that was what motivated me personally and professionally, probably 562 00:28:29,140 --> 00:28:31,700 Speaker 7: to a certain extent, now that I'm talking about it. 563 00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:36,710 Speaker 7: But no, it's funny because I have to remind my 564 00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:40,770 Speaker 7: kids sometimes that I have a job. And consequently, I 565 00:28:41,710 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 7: cannot be at their beck and call day and night. Because, 566 00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 7: you know, when my dad was there, when we were younger. 567 00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:52,380 Speaker 2: It was big. Like it was a wedding or funeral 568 00:28:52,860 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 2: or graduation. 569 00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 7: Or that little league game that I write about that 570 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,270 Speaker 7: I remember because it was so weird. Dad didn't show 571 00:28:59,350 --> 00:29:01,930 Speaker 7: up for stuff, in part because he worked third shift 572 00:29:01,970 --> 00:29:05,410 Speaker 7: at the post office, but in larger part because of 573 00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:06,930 Speaker 7: the addiction issues that he had. 574 00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:11,190 Speaker 2: So as a result, I've gone to the other end 575 00:29:11,230 --> 00:29:11,870 Speaker 2: of the spectrum. 576 00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:14,730 Speaker 7: So, you know, I'm there for soccer games and my 577 00:29:14,770 --> 00:29:19,100 Speaker 7: daughter had a gymnastics recital last Sunday morning. And, you know, 578 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,940 Speaker 7: I'm physically present as often as in as much as 579 00:29:22,980 --> 00:29:26,260 Speaker 7: I can. You know, I do school pickup and I 580 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,220 Speaker 7: try to do it all because, you know, my dad 581 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,940 Speaker 7: didn't do any of it. Now, the problem that you 582 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,180 Speaker 7: create when you do that, and it took me a 583 00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:37,490 Speaker 7: while to figure this out, I've created expectations. 584 00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:37,930 Speaker 2: Yes. 585 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,060 Speaker 7: So if I'm not there, it's like, oh, daddy's got 586 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,830 Speaker 7: to travel for work. Well, daddy, why can't you, can 587 00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:48,210 Speaker 7: you take a later flight? Can you go tomorrow? And 588 00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:50,850 Speaker 7: I've had to say a few times, You know, it's 589 00:29:50,890 --> 00:29:56,420 Speaker 7: the job that pays for all of this. You don't 590 00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 7: get to go to dance or you don't get to 591 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,820 Speaker 7: go to soccer if daddy's not hopping on the plane. 592 00:30:01,940 --> 00:30:08,540 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So that's the unfortunate part. But they're starting to understand. 593 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,220 Speaker 2: But it's funny as you become a parent, how you 594 00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: at some point become. 595 00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:15,820 Speaker 7: you become the kind of, for me, at least the 596 00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 7: kind of father that I used to mock. 597 00:30:17,660 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 11: Yes. 598 00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:20,540 Speaker 7: I hated when my dad would talk about, you know, 599 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 7: how much something costs. 600 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,050 Speaker 2: You don't have money for this. And when we were younger, 601 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,020 Speaker 2: We didn't. Like, he wasn't lying. Like, we knew we 602 00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: didn't have a lot of money. We knew we had enough. 603 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,150 Speaker 2: With my kids, you know, I've said a few times, 604 00:30:34,270 --> 00:30:36,490 Speaker 2: we can't afford this. And my son without missing a 605 00:30:36,510 --> 00:30:41,270 Speaker 2: beat will say, yes, we can. Yes, we can. 606 00:30:41,710 --> 00:30:44,130 Speaker 7: And I'm like, and then you find yourself trying to 607 00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:47,980 Speaker 7: come up with a new excuse. Like, well, maybe we 608 00:30:48,020 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 7: can't afford it, but we don't need it. You don't 609 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:50,900 Speaker 7: need that. 610 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 11: Right, right, right. 611 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 5: You know, so it's... It's hard. 612 00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: It's hard. 613 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,460 Speaker 8: Craig, I know we're about to wrap up, but I 614 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,550 Speaker 8: want to bring up a very, a fun moment as 615 00:31:00,610 --> 00:31:03,130 Speaker 8: a parent that I want to share with you because 616 00:31:03,150 --> 00:31:04,970 Speaker 8: you wrote about it when your son climbed in the 617 00:31:05,010 --> 00:31:08,250 Speaker 8: bed and, you know, and then your kids, when they sleep, 618 00:31:08,390 --> 00:31:10,850 Speaker 8: if you don't have kids, children, you got a very 619 00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:13,470 Speaker 8: young child, when they climb in the. 620 00:31:13,410 --> 00:31:14,690 Speaker 5: Bed, they forget you in bed. 621 00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:18,530 Speaker 8: Kids are the worst sleepers in the world, especially when 622 00:31:18,550 --> 00:31:20,170 Speaker 8: they get that six to 10 years of age. 623 00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:21,340 Speaker 5: They're the worst sleepers. 624 00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:24,010 Speaker 8: And so when you say that in the book, you 625 00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 8: say you may miss that. I remember when I talked 626 00:31:28,890 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 8: to my daughter when she was like 17. 627 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 5: I said, hey, won't you hop in bed. 628 00:31:32,220 --> 00:31:33,860 Speaker 2: And watch a TV show? What you talking about? 629 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,020 Speaker 5: I said, you know, can we not watch a TV? 630 00:31:37,060 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 2: Can we not watch TV together? Remember we used to go, 631 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: I don't do that no more, Dad. 632 00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:41,410 Speaker 4: Uh-uh. 633 00:31:41,510 --> 00:31:44,550 Speaker 2: No, no, we're not doing that. So I will tell 634 00:31:44,570 --> 00:31:45,209 Speaker 2: you this, Craig. 635 00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:47,170 Speaker 8: That moment brought laughter to me. 636 00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:48,510 Speaker 5: It brought back memories. 637 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 8: As your book, the amazingly good book, Pops, Learning to 638 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,940 Speaker 8: Be a Son and a Father, man, it's a great read. 639 00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 8: Like I said, it slowed me. When I say the 640 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 8: word slowed me, because I was becoming emotional. Because like 641 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 8: I said, my father was a beer drinker. My father 642 00:32:03,490 --> 00:32:04,770 Speaker 8: worked hard as a truck driver. 643 00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:07,970 Speaker 5: My father, like I said, was he in my life? 644 00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:09,970 Speaker 5: I don't know. But did he shape me to be 645 00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:10,910 Speaker 5: the man I am today? 646 00:32:11,170 --> 00:32:12,750 Speaker 8: Yes, he did. Because he had a role in it. 647 00:32:13,390 --> 00:32:15,190 Speaker 8: And that role has made me to be the man 648 00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:17,170 Speaker 8: I am. I like to believe I'm a good parent 649 00:32:17,370 --> 00:32:20,780 Speaker 8: to my daughter. a good husband to my wife. And 650 00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 8: those are the things that the stories that you tell 651 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,930 Speaker 8: out of this book, from the incarcerated to individuals who 652 00:32:26,970 --> 00:32:30,990 Speaker 8: raised you as a family, the community, and whether teachers 653 00:32:31,030 --> 00:32:33,410 Speaker 8: who shaped you as third grade teachers who shaped you 654 00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:36,410 Speaker 8: as you go through life and you went to school 655 00:32:36,510 --> 00:32:39,290 Speaker 8: and you didn't want to shame your uncle when you 656 00:32:39,310 --> 00:32:40,950 Speaker 8: didn't pledge Kappa Alpha Psi. 657 00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:44,940 Speaker 5: But it was all good, man. I love your book, Craig. 658 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 5: I want to appreciate you for putting it out there, man. 659 00:32:47,140 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 5: Thank you. 660 00:32:48,170 --> 00:32:50,910 Speaker 7: Thank you for your time. I've enjoyed this conversation. You're 661 00:32:50,950 --> 00:32:53,150 Speaker 7: very good at what you do. Thank you for having me. 662 00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:53,350 Speaker 5: Okay. 663 00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:55,209 Speaker 8: We talk soon, man. I'm going to put this on. 664 00:32:55,230 --> 00:32:57,210 Speaker 8: I got a nice little social media. I'm going to 665 00:32:57,230 --> 00:32:59,210 Speaker 8: put that out there in my newsletter. We're going to 666 00:32:59,230 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 8: get that out there for you. 667 00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:03,300 Speaker 2: Okay, Craig? Thank you, sir. Be well, okay? All right. Bye-bye. 668 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,420 Speaker 8: If you want to see or hear any of my 669 00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:09,540 Speaker 8: interviews on Money Making Conversation, please go to MoneyMakingConversation.com. 670 00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 5: I'm Rashawn McDonald. I am your host. 671 00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:15,150 Speaker 9: In this season of giving, Kohl's has gifts for all 672 00:33:15,170 --> 00:33:17,730 Speaker 9: your loved ones. For those who like to keep it cozy, 673 00:33:17,970 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 9: find fleeces, sweaters, loungewear, blankets, and throws. Or support minority-owned 674 00:33:22,930 --> 00:33:26,100 Speaker 9: or founded brands by giving gifts from Human Nation and 675 00:33:26,190 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 9: Shea Moisture. And in the spirit of giving, Kohl's Cares 676 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,580 Speaker 9: is donating $ 8 million to local nonprofits nationwide. 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Brought to you by the U.S. 687 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,609 Speaker 11: Forest Service, your state forester, and the Ad Council. 688 00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:13,930 Speaker 13: When's the last time you took a timeout? I'm Eve Rodsky, 689 00:34:13,950 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 13: author of the New York Times bestseller Fair Play and 690 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 13: Find Your Unicorn Space, activist on the gender division of labor, attorney, 691 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 13: and family mediator. And I'm Dr. Aditi Narukar, a Harvard 692 00:34:24,660 --> 00:34:27,730 Speaker 13: physician and medical correspondent with an expertise in the science 693 00:34:27,770 --> 00:34:31,830 Speaker 13: of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so excited 694 00:34:31,850 --> 00:34:34,970 Speaker 13: to share our podcast, Time Out, a production of iHeart 695 00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 13: Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're peeling back the layers around 696 00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 13: why society makes it so easy to guard men's time 697 00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 13: like it's diamonds and treat women's time like it's infinite, 698 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,340 Speaker 13: like sand. And so whether you're partnered with or without 699 00:34:48,380 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 13: children or in a career where you want more boundaries, 700 00:34:51,260 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 13: this is a place for you, for people of all 701 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,580 Speaker 13: family structures. So take this time out with us to learn, 702 00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 13: get inspired, and most importantly, Reclaim your time. Listen to 703 00:35:03,340 --> 00:35:07,060 Speaker 13: Time Out, a Fair Play podcast on the iHeartRadio app, 704 00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:10,380 Speaker 13: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.