WEBVTT - Google Shakes Up Corporate Renewable Energy Purchasing 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.080 Hi, This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.560 It on the BNAF podcast. Today, we're going to talk 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:10.600 about corporate energy procurement and how renewable energy power purchase 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.880 agreements or PPAs for short, have been able to help 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.880 companies meet their sustainability targets. But we're also going to 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.880 discuss their limitations. How about the fact that even under 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.599 the best of circumstances, wind and solar are not able 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.160 to fully decarbonize the company's scope two emissions when we 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.680 think about it as around the clock and everywhere in 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:35.159 the world at a specific place. So what will it 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.680 take for twenty four seven carbon free energy? Well, that's 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.240 what Google's goal is by twenty thirty, So it's time 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.120 to get creative. And here to talk about Google's journey 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.920 with PPAs and how they plan to innovate with the 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.720 help of their energy suppliers is Caroline Golin. She's the 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.120 global head of Energy Market Development and Policy at Google. 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:00.320 Caroline was interviewed by Kyle Harrison, and he is head 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.640 of sustainability research here at bf NOW. As a reminder, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.559 B and EF does not provide investment or strategy advice, 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.520 and we have a more complete disclaimer that's at the 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.000 very end of the show. But now let's listened to 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:22.000 Caroline and Kyle's conversation. Caroline, thanks for joining us today. Oh, 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.000 thank you for having me. I'm really excited for the 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.119 conversation som and actually, I feel like in many ways, 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.839 I've been an unofficial member of Google's energy procurement team. 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.240 So I've been covering corporate procurement at BNF for many 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.360 years now, and I remember when companies like Google and 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.880 Apple and Amazon we're signing the first corporate ppa's five, six, 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.399 seven years ago, and it's really cool to see kind 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.720 of how far this space has evolved over time. So 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.960 maybe my first question for you, and starting from the top, 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.800 can you walk us through Google's history of clean energy 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:55.880 buying kind of how does that fit into the broader 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.440 sustainability strategy of Google as a whole. Yeah, I'd be 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:01.760 happy to And well, then I'm glad we're having a 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.080 little bit of a team reunion here with this podcast, 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.760 So you know, i'd start out with saying that sustainability 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.359 has really always been at the heart of Google's operations. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.600 It's led by the employees. I mean, it's a very 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.920 important aspect to our employee culture. That's led by our customers. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.720 It's a very important aspect to our customers, and it 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.639 has led you by our leadership. It is important across 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.720 the board, and at the center of that sustainability initiative 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.560 has really been a commitment to cleaning our operations. And 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.600 this has been something that I would say we're two 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.640 decades really in the making here. So in two thousand 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.639 and seven, we had sort of set the goal for 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.880 our operations to be carbon neutral, and we really met 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.519 that goal largely by the use of offsets, which is 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.240 where many companies are today. As we evolved, we recognize 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.560 that we had a role to play in the energy 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:58.120 market and in the communities that we operated in, and 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.600 those communities that we operate in as usually where our 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:02.679 data centers are. So when we're talking about our operations, 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.560 we're talking about our data centers or our office buildings, 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.119 and those are global, right, I like to say, we 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.519 serve communities from Singapore to South Carolina. And so we 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.760 made the commitment then to run all of our operations 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.320 on one hundred percent renewable energy, and we did that 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.840 largely through an approach which is very common today of 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.320 global matching. So it's a bit of an accounting exercise, 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.160 but we took all of our electricity consumption across all 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.880 of our data centers and across all of our large 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.080 office buildings. We aggregated that up and then we said, 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.240 this is how much renewable energy we need to go 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.320 out and purchase in the market globally. And we did that, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.280 and we were the first corporate to do that. Actually, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.200 it's something that we take a lot of pride in 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.240 and it's something we've been doing year after year after 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.800 year after year. And what that meant really was that 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.960 where there were markets where we could go out and 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.960 sign PPAs for solar and win, we went out and 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.440 did that. Right, So you have markets in the United 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:05.400 States like MYSO and ERCOT where we could sign large 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.920 hundred megawatt two hundred megawatt wind and solar deals and 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.400 we aggregated all that up and that was equal to 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.320 our total electricity demand for all our data centers and 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.599 large office buildings across the globe. Huge, huge deal. The 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.240 biggest impact I think was that it sort of standardized 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.320 the corporate PPA and drove down the cost of wind 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:27.960 and solar globally. And we did this along with many 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.599 of our peers. You'll see this along many of the 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:34.839 tech company piers, Walmart, Microsoft like. In that sort of process, 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:39.000 we learned a lot right. The first thing we learned was, Wow, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:41.640 there are only a few markets in the world where 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.599 we can really execute at this scale. That's a problem. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.279 When I joined Google a little over four years ago, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.760 we only had a handful of data centers in each 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.440 area of the world. As we grow, as the digital 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.920 economy grows, we're going to have data centers and office 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.039 buildings all over the world. Does it makes sense to 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.040 continue to only purchase in the markets that are available. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.440 The other thing we realized was that by operating in 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.640 this sort of global annual match paradigm, there were many 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.880 hours of the day and in some cases complete data 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.240 centers that weren't actually running on any renewable energy at all, 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:22.880 and that a lot of the time we were still 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.440 very much reliant on fossil fuel. From a philosophical perspective, 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.440 the goal was to drive renewable energy to get off 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.080 fossil fuel, but that wasn't actually happening. So we had 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.640 to take a step back and really assess, well, what 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.720 are we trying to do here with our capital, with 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.120 our influence, with sort of our collective action, and we 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.080 settled on what we're really trying to do is decarbonize 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.120 the electricity grid. We want to decarbonize the electricity grid 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.000 because that is the lifeblood of our economy. That means 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.039 that our society can evolve in a clean way. It's 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.480 a stewardship towards our own operations, but it's also a 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.600 stewart ship to the communities that we operate in. So 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.680 how do we actually decarbonize the electricity system? Can we 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.479 do that with just this global matching approach? We came 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.919 to the opinion that we cannot do that with just 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.239 this global matching approach, and so we set the goal 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.960 of twenty four seven carbon free energy, And twenty four 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.920 seven carbon free energy is really the goal that we 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.840 will operate all of our operations, and again that's data 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.599 centers in large office buildings on completely carbon free energy 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.520 every hour of every day by twenty thirty. And the 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.440 other caveat there is that all the energy that we 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:38.200 will procure to meet that goal has to be generated 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.680 on the grids where we operate, right, so there is 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:45.400 no more buying in Iowa to match our needs in Singapore, 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.560 or buying in the Netherlands to match our needs in 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.279 South Carolina. Right, we have to now source all the 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.719 clean energy that is going to meet our operational needs 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.400 where we are, and it has to be every hour 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.240 of every day has to be met with carbon free energy. 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.919 And that is a huge, huge shift, and that's the 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:07.479 path we're on now. We like to call it our 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.800 moonshot goal. It's the most aggressive corporate goal out there. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.800 But there are many other companies that are seeing this 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.560 and also joining in and making similar goals because we 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.000 all sort of have collectively realize what's the most impact 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.160 we can drive, and the most impact we can actually 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.040 drive is the fold carbonization of the grid. So let's 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.120 put our focus there. Yeah, I think you know that 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.400 keyword of impact is really important here, right, You hit 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.800 on a lot of really important points. There's talking about 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:38.040 Google strategy obviously creating that blueprint and trailblazing with that 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.360 power purchase agreement model and beingf we're tracking power purchase 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.600 agreement volumes globally and you saw our record thirty one 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.560 gigawatts of these deals signed last year alone and this 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:50.400 year it's going to be a nail writer, but we 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.560 could see another record year. But you're absolutely right when 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.760 you look at the kind of the geographic dispersion of 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.280 those deals, a lot of this activity is occurring where 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.880 clean energy is the cheapest. So you see a huge 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.440 glot of corporate power purchase agreements being signed in markets 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.800 like Texas right or markets like SPP like you mentioned, 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.920 where the wind blows a lot and wind powers is 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.360 very cheap. But if you actually look at the renewable 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.680 development queue in the mix of energy generation and some 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.320 of these markets, they already have a lot of renewables, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.520 and so it's thinking a lot more about where can 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.040 you buy clean energy that makes the biggest impact. And 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.400 like you mentioned, there are a lot of markets around 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.760 Asia and parts of Eastern Europe in Sub Saharan Africa 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.839 that have a much heavier fossil fuel mix and clean 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.120 energy buying today is much less accessible for a corporate buyer. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.800 I think you're totally right that this twenty four seven 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.120 carbon free strategy that you just outlined really is going 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:45.800 to open the door for a lot more companies to 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.520 start thinking this way. Maybe another question for you, would 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.280 you consider this an evolution of Google's clean energy strategy 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.640 or would you consider it more of a pivot away 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.679 from kind of that traditional PPA model. I think it's 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:04.640 an evolution. Just with any evolution, you have to sort 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.080 of learn from where you started and learn as you go. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.040 I mean, when we sign the first corporate renewable PPA, 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.800 or when we set up the first solar program with 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.160 the utility in the United States, we did so with 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.320 the same goals that we have now, which is that 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.760 we want to drive impact, we want to decarbonize the grid. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.120 But it was only really through that learning process of going, oh, 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.520 so you're not going to retire that coal plant even 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:33.719 though we added one hundred and fifty megawatts of wind. Okay, wait, 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.520 you're actually going to bring on natural gas to firm 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.440 that solar. Okay, that's not computing in our head, So 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.480 why is that not computing? And I think the crux 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.440 or sort of the inherent beauty I like to say 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.120 of our twenty four seventh goal is it means we 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.079 actually have to roll up our sleeves and start reforming 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.640 the regulations, the market structures, and the policies that have 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:03.359 guided our elect city system for the past hundred plus years. 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.760 This is something we didn't necessarily have to do in 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:11.520 one hundred percent are global matching space, because as you said, 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:13.840 where we could go to market, we went to market. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.400 And we have a phenomenal procurement team, you know, and 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.280 they have worked their butts off for years signing all 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.680 these deals. But if we say no, no, no, you can't, 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.200 we're not going to do that anymore, then we have 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.800 to say we're going to have to change the markets 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:31.280 everywhere we operate. And market reform means regulatory reform, it 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.199 means policy reform. It means working with suppliers, It means 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.000 working with utilities and developers to become more creative, to 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.680 be more innovative, to say, okay, the structures that have 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.520 guided us for the past hundred years are insufficient for 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.320 the future, and so what are we going to do 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.120 to go faster, to be smarter, to get to that 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:55.400 clean energy transition. That's a much bigger undertaking. And so 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.280 why I think it's an evolution, it's because we've learned 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.960 and we've just grown in the way we think about things. 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.120 We still are meeting our one hundred percent renewable goal, 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.960 and all of that renewable energy that we're signing is 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.240 being counted and used towards our twenty four seven goal, 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.000 but now we're having to work on top of it, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.600 and how do we meet that gap? So even if 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.040 we're at one hundred percent renewable, which is when we 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:21.880 started this goal, even when we were at one hundred 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.319 percent renewable, we were still only around sixty six percent 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.200 carbon free on an hourly basis. So what are we 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:33.240 doing about that other thirty to forty percent everywhere we are? 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.160 And that's where it's that evolution in thinking, and that 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.560 evolution in thinking is really fundamentally changing all the market structures. Right, 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.720 We'll still use ppa's for wind and solar, but we've 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.560 got to do more than that. And you mentioned that 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.280 there are other companies that are starting to do this 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.280 as well. Right, How sticky is this kind of carbon 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.360 free strategy? Are you seeing this catch on with a 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.160 lot of companies? Because, like you mentioned, right, Google was 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.760 the first company to achieve one renewable electricity matching on 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.319 an anual basis, and we of course have seen more 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.920 companies go out and do that. And the R one 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.280 hundred is growing. I think it has close to four 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.719 hundred members now, But a lot of these companies are 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.520 not at one percent renewable yet, So how many of 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.120 those companies are ready for this evolution as you called it. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.280 I'd like to take the conversation a little broader and 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.880 not just talk about companies, because the way that I 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.160 look at this is twenty four seven is the end goal, 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.119 but it's also sort of the paradigm and the framework 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.960 by which we all collectively work. So whether or not 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.640 you've set a twenty four seven goal for your company, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.680 it's really about are we using our collective action to 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:46.559 put in place the market structures, the products, the technologies 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:48.520 that we all know we're going to need for a 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:53.199 decarbonized grid. So last year I had the pleasure and 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.400 was really humbled to work with the UN to launch 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.760 the twenty four seven Carbon Free Energy Compact. And this 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:04.680 is compact that invites every single player in the energy 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:09.839 ecosystem to work together towards the full decarbonization of the grid. 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.160 The one thing about twenty four to seven is that 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.079 it is inclusive of other technologies. You know, if you 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.440 set a one hundred percent our goal right now or 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.400 any other goal, you are de facto excluding the next 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.559 generation technologies that everyone knows we're going to need to 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.560 fully roll off fossil fuel. This makes the tent a 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.360 lot bigger, and we need the tent bigger. And the 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:38.240 compact right now is populated with governments, companies, advocacy organizations, suppliers, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.840 other large scale thought leaders on this. We have Iceland 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:47.120 in Scotland and a g as Microsoft New Core. I mean, 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.200 we have a number of signatories here. They're all there 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.240 not necessarily because they've set a twenty four seven goal, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.280 but because they believe that we need to change the 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.960 structure to get to a decarbonized it, and so that's 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.240 what they're committed to do. So one thing that I 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.839 love about twenty four seven is it is more inclusive. 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.000 And so I think for other companies or other organizations 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.480 that have other goals, that's part of their evolutionary process, right, 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.679 and as they work, they need to be cognizant and 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.440 work towards the baseline structures that we're all going to need. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:22.960 I think that we get sometimes in a place where 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.400 we say, oh, this corporate goal versus that corporate goal, 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.160 or this corporate goal towards that corporate goal. As corporates, 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.520 we have a responsibility to the economy, to the communities 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.400 where we operate in to drive scaled impact so that 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:40.480 not just our businesses, but every single household has the 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.480 opportunity to run on clean energy. And if we do 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:48.280 that collectively, then we are moving towards the right trajectory. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.200 And because this transition to clean energy, it's bigger than 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.480 any of us often talk about, like me, the economic 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.880 future of our generation or my children's generation. This is 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.400 how we are going to evolve as a society, and 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.239 so we need to really be collectively focused on society, 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:08.520 on the public good. That's why I love being in 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.080 the policy space, That's why I love being in the 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.760 market design space, because it's really about driving the public good. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.040 I hesitate to say this corporate goal versus that corporate goal. 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.200 It's really about how are we working together to drive 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.000 that collective action so that everyone behind us and everyone 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.520 to the side of us also gets to realize a 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.640 clean future. I think that's a really smart way of 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.720 thinking about it, and you're absolutely right that benefits many 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.000 more parties than just corporate buyers. And I think something 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.000 else that you hit on there that was super interesting, right. 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.880 You mentioned flexible technologies You've mentioned policy, You've mentioned suppliers, 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.320 So I want to dive a little bit deeper now 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.160 into kind of the different factors that are really important 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.920 in executing a twenty four seven carbon strategy twenty carbon free. 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:53.840 And I know you said to kind of expand this 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.600 beyond the corporate buyer, but I did want to specifically 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.120 talk about corporate buyers and make an analogy here. And 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.280 I've been workshopping us for a little while, and what 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.240 better time to kind of unveil this analogy than a podcast. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.360 Of course, to me, I think of clean energy buying, 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.280 especially from the corporate space, that the evolution of clean 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.120 energy buying, it reminds me a lot of the evolution 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.400 that you would see in a sport like baseball. And 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.440 we've got two Americans on the podcast here, so maybe 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.080 you'll pick up on some of this, but I'm happy 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.360 to kind of explain it more for a broader audience. 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.240 But if you look at the history of baseball, a 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.520 lot of people know that the most famous baseball player 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.240 ever his name is Babe Ruth. What made Babe Ruth 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.640 so famous was he would go out and he would 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.480 hit home runs. So he would hit the baseball outside 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.000 of the park, and it would get him and anyone 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.200 else that was on base a run, and that changed 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.800 the way the sport of baseball was played. Before Babe 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.440 Ruth came into the league, players intentionally wouldn't hit for power, 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.840 and they would intentionally hit it within the field. They 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.840 wouldn't hit home runs, and it was a much more 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.320 kind of strategic way of playing the game. And then 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:56.800 when Babe Bruth came in and started shattering all these 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.680 records around home runs, the sport of baseball changed fundamentally, 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.360 and all of the interests and all a wow factor 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.480 was going into hitting home runs. And to me, that 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.680 reminds me of the corporate energy space a couple of 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.600 years ago. It was all about volume, right who could 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.560 sign the most power purchase agreements. But if you look 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.280 today kind of at in revising history and you look 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.560 at who were the greatest baseball players of all time, 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:21.560 you'll still get a lot of people that will say 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.760 Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth was a fantastic player all around. 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.280 But there's a lot more focused now on what we 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.240 call a five tool baseball player. So it's not just 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.919 about hitting for power. It's not just about hitting home runs. 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.040 It's about getting on base more, it's about running the 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.240 basis faster, it's about fielding better, right, it's about a 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.960 better all around baseball player. And what that's doing is 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:43.879 it's shining a light on all these other players that 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.640 maybe used to not get as much attention as Babe 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.720 Ruth and now they are. And to me, it's very 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.600 similar to twenty four seven carbon free, right, And you 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.280 can kind of equate each of those tools to a 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.440 specific important factor that goes into a twenty four seven 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.639 carbon free strategy. So you can think about base running 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.960 as flexible generation, you can think about that supply side, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.880 working with utilities as something like being a better fielder. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.119 But then of course you do have something like hitting 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.560 for power, which is still a very important part of 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.760 the game, and buying clean energy, which is still a 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.280 very important part of a twenty four seven carbon free strategy. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.720 So maybe kind of going through each of these five 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.000 tools one by one, one of the things that you 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.320 just mentioned and you've mentioned a few times on the 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.040 podcast today is the procurement of flexible technologies, and that's 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.840 obviously going to be a very important part of a 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.560 twenty four seven carbon free strategy. So it's buying geothermal, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.920 it's buying nuclear that more closely resembled base load power, 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.560 but it's also looking at things like energy storage. Can 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.440 you tell me a little bit more about what Google's 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.600 doing here? Yes? Happy too, And you're right. I like 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.520 your baseball analogy. I was a little nervous. I wouldn't 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.639 get it at first, to be honest, but it is 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.280 pointing it right. Yes, it makes sense to me. So 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.000 I go back to what I was saying before. Right, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.920 So we set this goal. We're one hundred percent renewable 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.320 on our balance sheet in terms of if you add 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.200 the left side and the right side of the equation up. 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.040 It worked. When we dug a little deeper we got 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.159 to the hourly level, we realized only sixty six percent 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.840 of the time, really we were running on clean energy. 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.680 That's unfortunate. All right, how do we actually think about 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.200 getting to one hundred percent running on clean energy? Will 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.479 solar and wind do it? Then? Answer is no, solar 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.080 and wind is not going to do it. Every single 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.920 research paper I've seen said solar and wind can get 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.919 us about seventy eighty percent of the goal of a 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.439 completely clean grid, and that sort of subject to what 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:39.920 we do on transmission, which if we get a chance 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.440 to talk about, I'd love to talk about. But what 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.240 is going to happen is that we are in a 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.840 state where we don't have that last piece of the 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.720 pie figured out. So if we actually want to get 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.520 that last piece of the pie figured out, we're going 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.280 to need to start investing now. So that means that 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.679 we have to think bigger than wind and solar, and 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:00.440 that's what we've been doing for the past coup beers, 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.600 and we have a phenomenal team led by my colleague Mode, 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.040 who is looking across the globe to say, what are 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.800 the technologies that we need to invest in now, And 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.840 we tend to look at sort that kilowat to megawat 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.240 space that have already shown their proof of concept at 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.600 the kilowat space and we've said, okay, we're going to 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.000 now try to scale you beyond that. What are the 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:24.439 technologies that we're going to need to fill those firm hours, 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.040 like you said, those firm baseload hours. And so we've 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.080 been investing across the globe in this One of the 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.480 most recent investments that we made was in Nevada where 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.440 we invested with a company called Fervo Energy, and this 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.120 was the first partnership for what we're calling always on 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:45.680 clean Energy for geothermal, and so if this is successful, 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.560 we will see the fruits of those labors to be 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.800 able to scale geothermal not only for us, but for 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.280 other customers. We've also taken this approach in PGM, where 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:59.000 we've invested in battery storage with the same idea where 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.840 we're actually looked to do it as a model not 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.320 just for us, but for others, and we did what 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.159 we called a clean Energy manager model there. And so 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.639 we're looking at this, We're looking at hydrogen, we're looking 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:13.920 at next generation advanced nuclear, we're looking at everything that's 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:15.479 on the board. The other thing that we're looking at 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.800 is how do we just not have to purchase a 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.760 kilowatt hour in the first place, So demand response, energy efficiency, 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.199 all of these become tools in your toolkit when you 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.760 are in a twenty four seven world. To me, it's 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.920 more creative and you get to sort of be the 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.120 wind behind the sales of the next technologies that we're 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.120 all going to need. And that's been really, really, really exciting, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.760 and Mode's team has done an amazing job leading this, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.280 and the goal is to get this to a point 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.760 where we can now get the markets and the policies 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.359 to be supportive of these next generation technologies and figure 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.840 out how to best utilize them in a world where 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.400 within ten years we're going to have zero price signals 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.680 in a renewable space. So it's an exciting time and 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.280 that key component of investing in these next generation technologies. 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.720 I'll say, like, if we don't use our capital now 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:09.000 to do it, they will not be available when we 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:11.520 get to these higher penetrations of renewable energy, and we 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.760 are going to be in a very very, very overbuilt 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.160 and over expensive system as a result. It's a very 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:22.560 good point. And speaking of that availability, in those markets 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:27.600 where those flexibil technologies are not necessarily available, there's obviously 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:29.920 the element where you can tap a utility or retailer 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:32.480 work with one of those companies to offer you more 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.760 reliable electricity as well. And I know Google and other 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.240 tech companies in the past have signed what we call 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.639 green tariffs with regulated utilities in the US, but of 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.320 course there's a slew of other retailers and utilities around 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.520 the world that offer sleeved programs where they will buy 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.040 an intermittent source of renewable energy, they'll firm it up 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.320 with either their portfolio or buying power from the wholesale market, 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.320 and they'll deliver that and firmed up blocks to Google 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.560 as well. So where do utilities fit into this? Retailers 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.359 how important are they to a twenty four seven carbon 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:07.920 free strategy? Oh? Well, utilities and retailers are incredibly important. 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:10.159 I mean, we can set the demand, but at the 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:12.840 end of the day, we are looking for our partners 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.520 on the other side to drive the creativity and the 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.639 innovation and deliver and we need to work together in 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.240 every situation. So from a utilities perspective, and I think 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:25.520 we have to be honest, especially in the United States. 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:27.639 And this is different obviously in Europe, but in the 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.760 United States, most utilities have been governed by a regulatory 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:37.280 process that hasn't changed substantially in the past sixty plus years. 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:42.840 And while we were really proud of the inaugural green 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:47.200 tariff program and large scale solar programs for corporate buyers, 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.320 it is something that exists on the margin. We are 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:53.239 initiating these programs really with the idea that we're going 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.560 to continue to take a portion of whatever is the 0:23:56.600 --> 0:23:59.679 projected generation mix for that utility, and then we're just 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.520 going to add solar or at best add solar and 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.520 wind on and sort of make the math work, as 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:08.960 opposed to taking it from a different posture, which is 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:13.000 to say the goal is to commoditize clean energy. The 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:16.960 goal is to roll off fossil fuels completely, which means 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:21.040 we have to have a very different approach to capacity valuation, 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:26.320 to ancillary service valuation, to reactive powerflow valuation, and to 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:31.080 energy valuation. And so that means deconstructing the regulatory paradigms 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:35.080 that have put power on our system and turn the 0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:38.400 lights on in our homes for decades. And so it's 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.840 that deconstruction which is critical right now, and so Google 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.360 is playing a part in that and working with our 0:24:44.440 --> 0:24:47.359 utilities and in multiple parts of the country right now, 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:49.880 we are in partnership with utilities to try to get 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:54.800 to that next level, that next generation tariff where you're 0:24:54.840 --> 0:25:00.280 actually fully creating a power stack of clean energy, not 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:03.399 a power stack that is fossil fuel that is netted 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:07.200 out by an addition of renewable energy, but a full 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:11.720 power stack from capacity energy, ancillary and reserve that is 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:14.359 all clean, that's never been done before, and for a 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:16.600 utility to be able to do that and take on 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:19.280 that role and create tariffs around it will be a 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:23.160 game changer for customers because a tariff is something that 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:26.280 all customers can buy into, right whether or not you 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.280 have a procurement team like Google does. A tariff is 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:33.160 something that everyone can take on the supply side. It's 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:36.840 very similar. Our entire market and our entire system has 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:40.160 been based on a single source PPA structure. So corporate 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:42.760 goes out, they sign a large PPA for solar, they 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:45.480 sign a large PPA for wind, and then they add 0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:50.040 them up together. Wonderful. That is really inefficient and also 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:54.000 I think derivative of what we actually want to do 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:57.320 moving forward. What we need to get to a point 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:00.720 with is where a customer, big or small, can go 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:03.919 out to the market and say, I want an eighty 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:07.080 percent carbon free energy score, I want a ninety percent 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:09.440 carbon free energy score. I want one hundred percent carbon 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:11.760 free energy score. I want you to go out to 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:16.680 the market, very innovative supplier, and figure out the technologies 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.679 that need to stack up to deliver that to me. 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:23.880 Here's my hourly footprint. You go figure it out. It 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:27.480 puts the innovation on the supplier to do that. It 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:30.199 a challenge is the market, and I think that's a 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:32.240 good posture. We need to be pushing each other and 0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:34.840 going forward. And we just did this actually with AS 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.200 in Virginia, we did this exact same thing. We said, 0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:40.720 here is our carbon free energy score today. We want 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:43.160 you to get it. Here. You go out and figure 0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:45.280 out the technologies and how they're going to stack, and 0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:46.879 we're going to work. And it was a back and 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.320 forth process, but at the end of the day, it 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:52.240 was much more efficient as a blueprint for how the 0:26:52.280 --> 0:26:55.840 market really should work. So it's about innovation, it's about 0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:59.520 working together, and it's about having that shared goal which 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:01.959 is not just to lay a renewable energy onto an 0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:05.879 existence system, but to fundamentally change the way we stack 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:09.080 power so that we get to a clean system. Yeah, 0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:10.920 it's a good thing that you have companies like on 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:13.480 g an As, like you mentioned as part of this 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:16.560 twenty four seven carbon hub or carbon free Hub, right, 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.480 so they're you know, you're actively workshopping with them on 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:22.439 these types of strategies. Maybe let's move on to the 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:24.560 third tool here and again another one that You've brought 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.560 up a bunch of times today which is policy, and 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:31.359 I should say, right, you mentioned before that Google historically 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:35.280 was only signing PPAs where PPAs were available, and I 0:27:35.280 --> 0:27:37.359 do want to give credit to companies like Google and 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:39.840 a lot of other tech companies. There's a lot more 0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:43.520 countries that offer a corporate power purchase agreement model than 0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:46.159 there was a couple of years ago. You've seen big 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:50.159 developments of course in markets like Taiwan and markets like 0:27:50.240 --> 0:27:53.280 Japan and South Korea as well, where signing a power 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:56.439 purchase agreement or just buying clean energy in general as 0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:59.119 a corporate buyer is much more accessible than it was 0:27:59.160 --> 0:28:01.800 a few years ago. But maybe let's open this discussion 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:04.520 up a little bit further. Of course, like you mentioned, 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:07.199 policy for twenty four seven, carbon free is is a 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:09.600 lot more elaborate and a lot more expansive. So can 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:11.159 you tell us about some of the work that Google's 0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:14.520 been doing there? Yes, I'd love to. This is my wheelhouse, 0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:17.879 this is where I sit most days. I said this before, 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:20.320 but I'll say it again, but one of the inherent 0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:23.720 commitments in a twenty four seven goal is a commitment 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:27.439 to fundamentally change the markets and the policies and the 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:31.760 regulations which guide our electricity system. That's because there isn't 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:35.320 a market out there today that is built for a 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:39.080 carbon free electricity grit. There isn't one. The truth is 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:43.400 that our electricity systems globally are built because of and 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:48.840 in service of fossil fuels a namely natural gas. But 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:51.080 that's where we have come from and that's where we 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:52.960 continue to be, and I think we all need to 0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:56.680 recognize that the commodity by which our electricity system runs 0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:00.560 is natural gas. If we want our electricity system to 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:04.160 run on clean energy in full force, we have to 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:08.200 commoditize clean energy. The reason why we have commoditized natural 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:12.760 gas is because we created policies and regulations and infrastructure 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:16.520 to support that commodity. So if we want to run 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:18.480 on carbon for energy, we have to create the policies, 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:22.160 the regulations, and the infrastructures to commoditize clean energy. And 0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:26.120 that is a fundamental difference from where we've been and 0:29:26.200 --> 0:29:29.880 a refocus for everyone. Lee. In April of this year, 0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:32.880 we released our first policy roadmap for twenty four seven 0:29:32.920 --> 0:29:35.800 carbon free energy. And if my colleague Devon is listening, 0:29:35.840 --> 0:29:37.680 I just want to say thank you again for your blood, 0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:40.400 sweat and tears on this paper. And this was a 0:29:40.400 --> 0:29:43.040 paper that we released because we wanted to put this 0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:45.120 out there. We wanted to put the call to arms 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:48.040 out there, which is saying, if you really care about 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:51.840 decarbonizing the grid, it's not just about signing PPAs. It's 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:54.640 about getting involved in the policies that we need now 0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:56.560 and we're going to need in the future so that 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:59.440 everyone can realize this goal. And we really lumped these 0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:03.560 policies into three big buckets. The first one is market reform. 0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:06.480 All of our price signals right now, you know this 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:09.920 better than anyone is run or correlated on the price 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:13.440 of natural gas, which is a fuel cost. What are 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.480 we going to do in a world where we have 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:20.040 eighty percent penetrations of renewable energy has zero marginal costs, 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:23.000 the market structure is today don't support it. Okay, so 0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:25.840 the existing market structures don't support it. But then in 0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:29.240 multiple areas of the world, and especially in the United States, 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.840 we don't even have markets where customers can access clean energy. 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:36.840 So we need to reform existing wholesale markets so that 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:40.239 they're actually supportive of the commodity of clean energy, and 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:43.360 then we need to expand them so that customers can 0:30:43.520 --> 0:30:46.680 reap the benefits of wholesale markets, which is to drive innovation, 0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:51.160 drive down costs, and integrate at scale clean energy resources. 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:53.880 The second big bucket we have is investment in next 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:56.520 generation technology. We're putting our capital there. I just talked 0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:59.640 about that with Fervo, but we need policies that support that, 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.880 and very encouraged recently by what we've seen in Europe 0:31:03.120 --> 0:31:05.920 with fit for fifty five and what we've seen in 0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:09.440 the US with the IRA And actually I would argue 0:31:09.520 --> 0:31:12.760 that the capital game for renewables is there. It's been 0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:15.400 there for quite some time now. We have a capital 0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:18.720 game for next generation technologies, so we all need to 0:31:18.760 --> 0:31:20.800 get on that train, right, We all need to be 0:31:20.920 --> 0:31:24.480 investing there. And then the last bucket we really see 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:28.720 here is consumer empowerment. And so this gets at the 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:30.800 heart of a lot of what we're doing, which is 0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:34.800 that at the end of the day, we want every corporate, 0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:39.760 every customer, every buyer to be making the most informed 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.760 decision on where to deploy their capital that will have 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:46.360 the greatest amount of impact. You cannot do that if 0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:51.360 you don't know where something is generating, when it's generating, 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.440 and what it's generating, and you cannot know that unless 0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:58.520 you know the carbon footprint of your load. So to 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:03.000 empower consumers, we need policies that inform them. So we 0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:05.840 need much more transparency in our regulations. We need to 0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:09.400 be using things like teaks across the board that give 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:13.120 buyers the right price signals so that we actually invest 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:16.640 where we need clean energy, and we need transparency. I've 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:19.440 used this joke so many times, but I don't think 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:22.360 people realize that one of the most informative pieces of 0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:27.680 paper on how utilities operate and utilities footprint in the 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:31.360 US is still uploaded in a PDF and sent to FIRTH. 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:33.880 And if you want to actually download it and get 0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:36.240 anything out of it, you need to spend lots and 0:32:36.280 --> 0:32:38.560 lots and lots of money on that type of data. 0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:41.239 But that data needs to be open so that we 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.680 can empower customers so that they are all rowing in 0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:47.800 the same direction. So those are three big buckets, and 0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:50.840 building on that, we've been building coalitions globally. We've built 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.080 a number of coalitions in the US. We've built the 0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:56.480 Carbon for Energy Compact. We just launched a recent partnership 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:59.080 with C forty, which is a major network of cities 0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:03.680 to see these work on launching pilot programs to see 0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:06.720 twenty four seven grow. This year we saw Paris in 0:33:06.840 --> 0:33:11.479 London and Copenhagen as our inaugural pilot cities. You know, 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:13.520 as I said, it's not just about corporates, but it's 0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:16.240 about everyone who's at the left and right of us, 0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:20.880 in front, back of us to get this going. Yeah, 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:23.840 in many ways, it does seem like policy is kind 0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:27.160 of the central component of this twenty four seven carbon 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:30.200 free strategy, and I think that point about transparency is 0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:32.880 actually a really good segue into the next kind of 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:36.000 tool in a twenty four seven carbon free strategy. So 0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:38.920 we've obviously seen a lot of really exciting developments, especially 0:33:38.960 --> 0:33:42.240 in the EU, happening when it comes to the certification 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.560 of energy generation. Right, So you have the Guarantees of 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:49.440 Origin system in the EU, which is your renewable energy 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.720 certificate equivalent in Europe. But of course now there's proposals 0:33:52.720 --> 0:33:55.680 and there's policy in place to expand that to every 0:33:55.720 --> 0:33:58.880 type of generation technology. And so I wanted to talk 0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:01.200 a little bit more just about what do we need 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:03.640 on the technology side to enable a twenty four seven 0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:06.800 carbon free strategy. Part of this is obviously adapting on 0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:09.280 the demand side. Google has done some really cool work 0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:13.319 using Internet of Things and other technologies to change data 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:17.279 center activities so that they're using more energy intensive processes 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.200 at times when renewables are generating. And then of course 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:22.480 you have all these companies now that are trade are 0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:27.000 creating sorry ourly renewable energy certificates. How important is this 0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:31.080 kind of technology development area in this broader overall strategy. 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:34.000 I think it's hugely important, and I'm really glad we're 0:34:34.000 --> 0:34:36.480 going to talk about it. So let's take it from 0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:40.720 both sides. You mentioned teaks our time stamping of geos 0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:44.440 in the EU, and this is something that's really important 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:46.160 for us right now and that you and really should 0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:49.239 be important for anyone who's driving towards a decarbonized grid, 0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:52.719 which we have an opportunity right now with the Renewable 0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:56.439 Energy Directive drafts to really get time stamped geos in there. 0:34:56.760 --> 0:35:01.040 And the importance of this is that when you attach 0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:05.719 an hour and a location and a fuel source to 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:10.480 your geos, you start creating the price signals that investors 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.680 need to put their capital where the grid needs it, 0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:18.120 and really the goal is to move every one towards 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:23.320 focusing on what the grid needs wear to accelerate decarbonization. 0:35:23.520 --> 0:35:26.600 That's sort of why these types of registries, a teak registry, 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:31.320 a timestamp geo registry, they're really, really, really important because 0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:35.520 we don't have those market signals right now and rex 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:39.480 are insufficient for creating the impact that we need, and 0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:41.640 so we need to go farther. And so I think 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:45.520 if we get teaks deployed across the board, that will 0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:47.520 sort of be a game changer and the way we 0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:50.640 think about capital deployment because then you're sitting from a 0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:55.400 financial perspective and you actually can see the value of 0:35:55.440 --> 0:35:59.520 your investment not only for your footprint, but for the 0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:04.000 overall grid, and that should have a larger value sign 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.280 with it. Right if you are decarbonizing in the hours 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:11.600 that are really hard to decarbonize in, that creates more value, 0:36:11.640 --> 0:36:15.080 That creates more long term capital assurance for these next 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:18.640 generation technologies, in the same way that a long term 0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:22.360 ppa for solar and wind created the capital assurance for 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:25.399 the developer market to go out and to finance these 0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:27.479 new projects. And what we need to do is create 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:31.840 the revenue certainty for the hours that we're not creating 0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:33.799 clean energy for. So how do we do that? We 0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:35.960 have to create those price signals, So that's why teaks 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:39.280 are so important. On the other side you asked about really, 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:41.200 which was like the demand side. You know, what are 0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.880 we doing from our load? This is something that is 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:46.080 really interesting that I think Google is doing and I 0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:49.040 think it's interesting for data centers, but I think it's 0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:51.239 actually more interesting for what it could mean for the 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:55.359 broader industrial economy. So we have a carbon compute system 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:58.400 and a clean compute system, which it basically is a 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:03.360 system that says we are going to pilot matching our load, 0:37:03.840 --> 0:37:07.200 matching our demand with the carbon intensity of the grid, 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:10.400 and where we can shift load, we are going to 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:14.880 shift load so that our footprint is following along with 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.840 the footprint of the carbon intensity of the grid. Everyone 0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:20.759 knows that demand response right now is based on the 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:23.160 price of the grid. If you're in Europe right now, 0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:26.200 you're seeing this day in and day out, and we've 0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:30.160 seen this in the US, which is that the signal 0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:33.520 that customers are given is based on the marginal cost 0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:38.000 of electricity generation. The signal moving forward, if we're going 0:37:38.040 --> 0:37:41.960 to get to an eighty percent penetration of renewable system 0:37:42.040 --> 0:37:45.160 where there is no marginal cost because there's no fuel 0:37:45.200 --> 0:37:47.719 cost is going to have to change. So do we 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:50.160 scrap marginal cost altogether? No, I don't think we scrap 0:37:50.200 --> 0:37:53.759 marginal costs altogether. We redefine marginal costs. So what is 0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:58.040 marginal costs in a frankly zero fuel cost system. Marginal 0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:04.200 cost means carbon intensity. Marginal cost means reserve, it means answllery, 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:07.000 it means transmission costs, it means all these other things. 0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:10.359 But largely, what it's going to mean for buyers that 0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:13.600 have and the industrial sector that have these huge goals 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:18.440 is when can I shift to make my load more clean? 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:21.399 And so the idea of the software that we've been 0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:24.720 piloting is not only to make data centers follow along 0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:27.359 with the carbon intensity of the grid, but to get 0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:30.120 it out there across the entire industrial economy. The interesting 0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:32.279 thing about data centers is that we don't have very 0:38:32.320 --> 0:38:35.080 variable load. We're kind of always on. But I think 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:39.600 about general manufacturing that has that ability to shift up, 0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:41.839 we would be able to get to a point where 0:38:41.840 --> 0:38:45.960 you have the industrial policy sector merge with demand response 0:38:46.120 --> 0:38:50.600 in a way that is really focused on creating a 0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:54.960 CFEE per megawat score for your demand response signal as 0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:58.840 opposed to a cost of gas per megawat score for 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:02.239 your demand response signal. And I think that builds innovation 0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:06.480 around energy efficiency in the industrial sector, It builds innovation 0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:11.160 around building structures about how we build our manufacturing, how 0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:15.640 we design our parts, how we design transmission and industrial 0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:18.439 parks in general. So it could really change the way 0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:20.839 we think about this because you're getting out of just 0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:26.120 this price signal to something much more impactful, this carbon signal. Absolutely, 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:27.800 and I think what that also does is it takes 0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:30.120 some of the burden off of some of these other 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:33.680 areas that we've talked about today, right around flexible generation 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:36.160 and about the collaboration and the work that you do 0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:39.200 with utilities. All right, So moving on now, I wanted 0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:42.200 to just really quickly highlight that that fifth tool, right, 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:45.160 and of course in baseball, hitting home runs is still 0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:48.160 very important. Aaron Judge on the New York Yankees just 0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:51.040 set the record for home runs this past season, and 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:53.440 he just signed a massive new contract yesterday as a 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:55.799 matter of fact, to show how much, you know, people 0:39:55.840 --> 0:39:58.080 still care about hitting home runs, and it's the same 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:01.520 in clean energy buying. Right. Of course, signing corporate PPAs 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:03.279 is still a very important part of the market, and 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:04.520 I want to make sure we gave it a little 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:07.840 bit of love on today's podcast. Where does a traditional 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:11.160 corporate PPA fit into Google strategy moving forward? Will you 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:14.760 still be signing them? We are still signing them today, 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:18.839 but we are signing them much faster and much more 0:40:18.840 --> 0:40:21.920 simply than we were signing them before. The truth is 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:25.640 it's completely inefficient for a company like Google to spend 0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:28.640 six months going back and forth on the terms of 0:40:28.680 --> 0:40:31.640 a traditional PPA. We need to be able as an 0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:35.359 industry to agree on a certain number of terms and 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:38.320 move forward and move quickly. And we are piloting and 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:42.040 looking at that right now. So I think traditional PPAs 0:40:42.160 --> 0:40:44.560 will be there, and it will be there. As we 0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:48.120 said in the beginning, how the market evolves. If we're 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.640 not in a very evolved market and the best we 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:55.160 can do today is a traditional corporate PPA, we will 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:57.000 do that, of course, but we are going to be 0:40:57.160 --> 0:41:01.120 pushing everywhere we can to at the market to evolve. 0:41:01.280 --> 0:41:04.319 We would be happy to do a traditional corporate PPA. 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:06.200 So I don't want to you know, as you say, 0:41:06.239 --> 0:41:09.600 pooh pooh that model. We're using it where it is 0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:12.840 the best and brightest that it's available, but we're always 0:41:12.840 --> 0:41:14.879 pushing it to be better. And I think that this 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:17.960 is where we as an industry can really work together 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:21.520 and knowledge share because we have a lot of collective 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:25.319 experience around this and it's time to evolve. Yeah, I 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:27.560 think that's a very good point, and you're totally right 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:29.520 if you look at all the companies that are going 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:32.600 out and setting net zero targets or making one hundred 0:41:32.640 --> 0:41:35.800 pledges for all those companies to go out and sign 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:40.319 bilateral over the counterpower purchase agreements that can, like you say, 0:41:40.480 --> 0:41:42.680 take six months or a year to negotiate. It's not 0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:45.640 sustainable and candidly, there's not enough bodies to go ahead 0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:47.840 and do that for every company in the world. And 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:49.839 so I think that's a very smart way of looking 0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:52.680 at it is just continuing to sign corporate PPAs, but 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:56.600 evolving how we go out and procure those contracts. So 0:41:56.680 --> 0:41:58.600 I know we're running out of time here, Caroline, So 0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:00.880 I wanted to kind of move on to the final 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:02.600 one or two questions that I have for you today. 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:06.359 How does the investor community interpret a twenty four seven 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:08.759 carbon free strategy. I know you that you mentioned that, 0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:11.799 of course it benefits the broader grid, and it could 0:42:11.880 --> 0:42:15.200 change the way that we think about the energy system 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:18.120 in general and how companies, of course buy energy as well. 0:42:18.520 --> 0:42:21.600 But how are investors baking this into their strategies today? 0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:23.879 Are they starting to consider these things? And maybe it's 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:29.160 is it from that risk angle where they're really focusing today. Yeah, 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:31.719 it's a great question, I would say, and I mean 0:42:31.760 --> 0:42:34.680 I've said this before, which is that the clean energy 0:42:34.760 --> 0:42:39.399 revolution is not necessarily a capital issue. I think we've 0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:44.040 all lived in a world where politically, maybe we have 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:46.480 said that there isn't enough capital out there. There isn't 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:52.560 enough capital appetite to deploy renewable energy to finance next 0:42:52.560 --> 0:42:55.880 generation technologies at the scale we would need them to be. 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.840 It's just too expensive. I think probably anyone who listens 0:42:58.840 --> 0:43:01.600 to your podcast knows that is true in some areas 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:04.640 of our globe. But in the United States and in 0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:09.400 Europe and increasingly in South America and even parts of Asia, 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:12.319 that's not the case. The capital is there. What the 0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:16.120 capital is there for is, as you've said, is for 0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:19.600 tried and true contracts that makes sense on their ballot sheet. 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:21.719 So I think Wall Street has been lining up for 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:25.120 a long time based on the tax incentives and the 0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:27.680 tax structures that we've deployed in this country and in 0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:31.160 others to get a guaranteed return. It's a good one, 0:43:31.600 --> 0:43:34.239 and let's be thankful for that, right, Let's all take 0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:36.600 a moment and say we're really glad that happened, and 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:39.760 be thankful for the tax incentives and the tax equity 0:43:39.880 --> 0:43:43.640 that we've been able to monetize over the past decade 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:46.600 to really to make that capital market firm. And so 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:49.160 your question is really about, well, how do we evolve 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:51.200 this if we know it's not just wind and solar. 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:53.640 So one thing I'll say is that it's been really 0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:57.000 encouraging to see where the EU and the US is 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.279 thinking about this, and we can see there's a lot 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:03.400 amount of public money right now going towards the deployment 0:44:03.560 --> 0:44:06.480 of next generation technologies. There's a lot of money right 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:09.000 now in hydrogen right there's a lot of money right 0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:13.040 now in battery storage, long duration storage. And thinking about 0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:16.640 this where I would take your questions slightly differently, if 0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:19.920 you'll give me the allowance is that is that there's 0:44:19.960 --> 0:44:23.279 not a lot of money thinking about the infrastructure that 0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:26.200 we are going to need to deploy all of this. 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.680 So I think the capital market knows how to finance 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:32.919 a big piece of steel in the ground. It's done 0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:35.759 it for a long time. Honestly. If that piece of 0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:44.000 steel is generating solar electrons or wind electrons or geothermal electrons, 0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:46.399 the structure is largely there. I'm not saying it's cut 0:44:46.400 --> 0:44:48.520 and paste. It's not cut and paste. And obviously you're 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.360 going to need companies like Google and other companies and 0:44:51.480 --> 0:44:54.680 utilities to be those firm off takers. But the structure 0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:57.480 is largely there. What the structure is not there for 0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:02.920 is investing in monetary rising and securing off take for 0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:07.400 the infrastructure we need in infrastructure a transmission and substations 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:13.360 and long HDVC lines and piping offshore wind from Ireland 0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:16.560 to the rest of the UK, and wheeling solar in 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:20.160 Arizona to New England. And if I was to say 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:22.879 anything to the capital market right now, it's that there's 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:28.080 a lot of energy going on. Sorry pun intended, I guess, yeah, 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:32.240 there's a lot of energy right now going on about 0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:35.279 getting clean energy onto the grid. And then there's a 0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:38.200 lot of energy right now the regulatory bodies, whether it 0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:42.240 be in the US or in Europe, around grid planning, 0:45:42.320 --> 0:45:46.200 transmission planning, Q reform, interconnection reform. We have a lot 0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:48.840 of capital going in into wind and solar in the US. 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:53.439 Even in PJM that just did this watershed docket, we're 0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:56.120 not going to get anything interconnected before twenty twenty seven 0:45:56.520 --> 0:45:59.320 that we signed today. That's the quickest something's going to happen. 0:45:59.760 --> 0:46:03.359 So there's this huge backlog on the grid. And while 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:05.319 we have all these planning docks, and we have all 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:08.120 these process docks, which are great, I'm very excited for them. 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:10.879 We've lent our comments, we've intervened. We want to see 0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:13.600 transmission planning, we want to see Q reform, we want 0:46:13.600 --> 0:46:17.399 to see interconnection reform. We fundamentally need that if we're 0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:20.440 going to get a single electron on the grid anytime 0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:23.239 soon in this country. But if we don't figure out 0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:27.760 how we're financing our infrastructure, and if we don't change 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:32.160 cost allocation of our infrastructure in this country and in Europe, 0:46:33.040 --> 0:46:36.600 all of this capital behind clean energy really doesn't mean 0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:39.160 much because it's going to have nowhere to go. We're 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:42.040 just going to continue to build these loops of transmission 0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:46.760 lines in multiple areas of our country countries, as opposed 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:51.239 to actually investing in the broad backbone of a transmission 0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:55.160 system that we're going to need to commoditize clean energy 0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:59.400 in the way that gas pipelines and rail systems commoditized 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:02.480 coal natural gas. If that's not there, and if the 0:47:02.520 --> 0:47:07.280 capital market doesn't get invested in that another pun, then 0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:11.239 a lot of this is just going to stall. So 0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:13.920 I would sort of take your question and say, if 0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:17.279 we're really thinking about decarbonizing the grid, we have to 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.920 think about that infrastructure backbone. And that's where I'd like 0:47:19.960 --> 0:47:22.440 to see the capital markets get more involved and work 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:26.480 with policymakers to figure out what's the best cost allocation here, 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:29.959 what's the best investment strategy because this is a public good, 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:33.960 we need it, we fundamentally need it. Or everything we 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:35.520 just talked about before is you're sort of going to 0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:38.000 sit on a shelf. Yeah, of course, No, that's a 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:40.360 very interesting spin. And then honestly, when I asked the question, 0:47:40.440 --> 0:47:42.400 that's not the angle that I was thinking of it from. 0:47:42.440 --> 0:47:45.879 And it's a fascinating perspective and maybe just to close 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:47.200 things out here, I think a lot of this, of 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:49.960 course comes down to spreading the word and you know, 0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:52.560 of course these messages and talking about the importance of 0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:55.400 transmission and getting that in front of as you mentioned, 0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:58.560 investors and policymakers. That makes a world of difference. And 0:47:58.600 --> 0:48:01.120 of course Google has done a great job and being 0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:04.640 public and communicating publicly about its twenty four seven carbon 0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:07.360 free strategy. And what we hope with this podcast is 0:48:07.400 --> 0:48:09.360 that we can further spread the word about all the 0:48:09.440 --> 0:48:11.839 good work you guys are doing. So maybe let's wrap 0:48:11.880 --> 0:48:14.680 it up there, And just to say, Caroline, thanks so 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:17.640 much for joining us today. Fascinating to hear as always 0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:20.120 what Google's been doing when it comes to clean energy procurement, 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:23.319 and I look forward to hearing about many interesting developments 0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:26.520 in the future around the strategy. Oh well, thank you 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:28.920 for having me. This was a wonderful way to spend 0:48:28.960 --> 0:48:37.600 my morning. Today's episode of Switched On was edited by 0:48:37.600 --> 0:48:40.839 Gray Stoke Media. Bloomberg anyf is a service provided by 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:45.120 Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. 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