Speaker 1: Welcome to Charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. Wow. When
Speaker 1: an incredible journey this first season of Charges has been.
Speaker 1: You know, when I started this process and this podcast,
Speaker 1: I wasn't totally sure what to expect of me as
Speaker 1: a host, of our guests and their desire to be
Speaker 1: open with me, and of the reception of the show.
Speaker 1: I must tell you it's been incredible. The guests we've had,
Speaker 1: the stories they've told, the moments and relationships, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the feedback and responses we've received from our listeners. It
Speaker 1: has made me so proud. For now, I wanted to
Speaker 1: put the finishing touch on season one, and as my
Speaker 1: guest today knows, no matter how nice the drive or
Speaker 1: the attempt, what really matters is the finish and finishing strong.
Speaker 1: So my thought for this topic was to bring on filmmaker, producer, director,
Speaker 1: and basketball fan Evan leon helped me sort through all
Speaker 1: we've been through this season and have a discussion about
Speaker 1: the process of telling stories. You may know the name
Speaker 1: Evan Leong from his work as director of documentary Len
Speaker 1: Sanity about the incredible rise of Jeremy Lynn on the
Speaker 1: New York Knicks. But if you've seen the film. You
Speaker 1: know that the story we all kind of knew about Jeremy,
Speaker 1: there was so much more and that documentary is a
Speaker 1: must see for any sports fan. This is Charges Charges Evan.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Charges, buddy. It's really really great to be here.
Speaker 1: I mean volume twenty, I mean, I'm I'm become a
Speaker 1: super fan of the show, and you know, it's truly
Speaker 1: truly honored to be here. Why do you like the show?
Speaker 1: Why do I like the show? I mean this is
Speaker 1: you create this level of empathy and vulnerability that it's
Speaker 1: just so hard to to see, you know, to experience
Speaker 1: these days. Right, I think you know the way this
Speaker 1: industry works, and especially the sports industry. You know, we're
Speaker 1: trained to think of athletes as a brand, as an
Speaker 1: idea of as as as simple as icon. But you know,
Speaker 1: they're humans. They're just like me. They're just like you know,
Speaker 1: every all the fans out there. You know what's weird
Speaker 1: about that is, I'm we talked about the vulnerability. I know,
Speaker 1: when I started speaking to groups about drug issues and whatnot,
Speaker 1: the main thing that people want want to see and
Speaker 1: here is your vulnerability. They want to know that you're
Speaker 1: you're human, just like they are, And then I thought,
Speaker 1: our guests all season long this year. You know, obviously
Speaker 1: they're coming on a show called charges Um with my
Speaker 1: mug shot on the things, so they know they're not
Speaker 1: going to talk about the best times of their life.
Speaker 1: But what I think that, you know, our our whole
Speaker 1: crew has done a terrific job of just you know,
Speaker 1: really researching the guys and ladies and gentlemen that we've
Speaker 1: had on the show. And you know, obviously we try
Speaker 1: to build everybody up as much as we can, UM,
Speaker 1: but then they know they're coming on to talk about
Speaker 1: arguably the worst time in their life. And I just
Speaker 1: can't say enough about these people who have come on
Speaker 1: and shared these amazing stories with us. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's exciting to see you know, I mean, I grew
Speaker 1: up in the same area as you, the eighties and
Speaker 1: the nineties, masculinity, man protection. We don't share our emotions
Speaker 1: and and it's crazy to see how honest we can
Speaker 1: be in right, And it's exciting to have someone like
Speaker 1: you be, you know, one of these these culture makers
Speaker 1: of this era. And so Um, I'm really excited to
Speaker 1: talk to you about all these things because you know,
Speaker 1: episode one to episode twenty. This is I've got to
Speaker 1: see you grow as well. Yeah, yeah, you know. Uh
Speaker 1: when Steve Nash and and uh Ezra and Brandon are producers,
Speaker 1: the guys who kind of came up with this idea.
Speaker 1: When they contacted me about it, I couldn't really visualize that.
Speaker 1: I'm not that bright anyway, but they I couldn't really
Speaker 1: even tell what they were talking about until we started
Speaker 1: getting into it. And then once I got the concept,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, you know, if we do
Speaker 1: that the right way, it might be pretty compelling and
Speaker 1: just to see, you know, and to be completely honest,
Speaker 1: I'd never interviewed anybody ever ever. You know, Um, I've
Speaker 1: been interviewed since I was fifteen, and you know, can
Speaker 1: do this stuff much better than being the host. So
Speaker 1: I was very nervous and still get nervous doing this stuff.
Speaker 1: The other part about it that I found and I
Speaker 1: hearing back from some of the people that have been
Speaker 1: on the show. If you've been in therapy or if
Speaker 1: you've been in treatment, you've probably been in therapy and
Speaker 1: it feels cathartic in many ways. When I get I
Speaker 1: worry about doing the show because I want to do
Speaker 1: right by the guests. Inevitably, though, when I get off,
Speaker 1: I just feel better. I feel like, Okay, well, you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked through some pretty tough and motions today and
Speaker 1: you feel like, you know, well, I've put in a
Speaker 1: good day's work. So that's been really rewarding. What made
Speaker 1: you want to do a show like this? What were
Speaker 1: you hoping for? You know, Steve and I have known
Speaker 1: each other for twenty some years now, and um, he's
Speaker 1: just he's the best. And when he called and said, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, would you be interested in doing this again?
Speaker 1: I I've just kind of been building my life back
Speaker 1: for the last few years and I was looking for
Speaker 1: more to do, and um, you know, it took us
Speaker 1: a little while, and then obviously the pandemic set in.
Speaker 1: I think we were going to try to do you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff live or with people in person,
Speaker 1: but that kind of the pandemic kind of pushed everything
Speaker 1: to zoom. So you know, we've we've tried to adjust
Speaker 1: and I think it's gone really well. I'm so thankful
Speaker 1: for the guests, but uh, yeah, there were a lot
Speaker 1: of nerves going into it, for sure. Yeah, besides becoming
Speaker 1: you know, a talent you know, becoming more in this
Speaker 1: media world. What were you hoping for? Is there anything
Speaker 1: personally you're looking for? No, you know, I before I
Speaker 1: say no, I think that you know, I'm constantly looking
Speaker 1: for redemption and trying to you know, redeem myself. And yeah,
Speaker 1: as much for me, but for my my kids. You know,
Speaker 1: I've got kids that are twenty nine and twenty six
Speaker 1: and twenty two and twenty one, and when I was
Speaker 1: going through my ship, they were young people, and um,
Speaker 1: you know I I'm just constantly trying to make up,
Speaker 1: make up for you know, things that I've done and
Speaker 1: and try to hopefully redeem myself continue to redeem myself
Speaker 1: in their eyes. So yeah, I wanted to try to
Speaker 1: do something positive. And yes, we're talking about you know,
Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol and um, you know, people going to
Speaker 1: jail in prison and stuff like that. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if it can be called uplifting. I think the
Speaker 1: way that we've gone about doing it where we you know,
Speaker 1: we talked about this person's whole career, all the good stuff,
Speaker 1: and then give them the opportunity to talk about you know,
Speaker 1: the episode we did with Bonds E Wells I thought
Speaker 1: was really powerful um, you know, because I remember that
Speaker 1: jail blazers team, jail blazers. Do you remember the first
Speaker 1: time you heard the term jail blazers? How did it
Speaker 1: make you feel? Man? When I first heard it, man,
Speaker 1: I thought it was cool at first, because you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, I didn't understand. I wasn't thinking about
Speaker 1: the cultural part of it. In a weird way, it
Speaker 1: kind of reminded me of like the Raiders, you know,
Speaker 1: or the bad Boys, Like that was bad boys. That
Speaker 1: was our identity. Like okay, that's who we are with
Speaker 1: some bad boys. You know what I'm saying. I like
Speaker 1: I internalized that in my mind. Is like it's in
Speaker 1: term of endearment at first, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like okay, but until they just started, you know, putting
Speaker 1: thugs said, you know, you're we read the articles and stuff.
Speaker 1: So then when you can start seeing the thugs and
Speaker 1: quotes and all this stuff, you be like, hold up, bro,
Speaker 1: hold up, hold up, and I can call us jail
Speaker 1: blazers and we are here on some tough guys stuff,
Speaker 1: but don't put that on us, like we're really going
Speaker 1: to jail and we're doing this stuff, because that's real,
Speaker 1: Like they don't understand, like how that stuff follows you
Speaker 1: throughout your whole life and your whole career and and
Speaker 1: one thing as a black man, we don't want our
Speaker 1: names associated with being in jail the rest of the league.
Speaker 1: At the time, you know, this was kind of pre internet.
Speaker 1: Really um, we were like, man, the media is treating
Speaker 1: those guys really bad, really bad. And talking to Bondsi,
Speaker 1: I just it. It just kept coming back to me
Speaker 1: as I'm watching him, I'm like, man, I wish you
Speaker 1: and Rashid could have had a podcast when you were playing.
Speaker 1: While you guys were going through this, so that the
Speaker 1: public could know from your standpoint what was going on
Speaker 1: and not constantly being fed the the Trailblazer's PR team
Speaker 1: or some or a writer's opinion. We were able to
Speaker 1: get it. I think all of these have just been
Speaker 1: amazing because we're able to get, you know, the story
Speaker 1: right from the source. I don't normally listen to the
Speaker 1: things that I do or watch the things that I do,
Speaker 1: because I normally don't like any of the stuff that
Speaker 1: I do. But I did listen to about the first
Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty minutes of Jason's pod and just started crying,
Speaker 1: just started crying. And I know the story. I've known
Speaker 1: him for thirty years, so real quick. I grew up
Speaker 1: on the Louist side of Manhattan. I came home. I
Speaker 1: was about thirteen and a half years old. Uh. I
Speaker 1: was staying with my sister at the time. We would
Speaker 1: only live building. The building depend on how if I
Speaker 1: missed curfew. That means when the lights went on outside,
Speaker 1: I can always run over to her house and she
Speaker 1: would tell a lie to my dad that I was
Speaker 1: over there. But this time it was an awakening. I
Speaker 1: got out the elevator, I saw your business amount of blood.
Speaker 1: I looked down the hallway and the blood got thicker
Speaker 1: and thicker, and it led until my sister's apartment when
Speaker 1: I went into them. My sister six ft one, she's
Speaker 1: about a hundred and thirty pounds. She was a model,
Speaker 1: a supermodel. And Uh, A guy named Sergio, who I
Speaker 1: did not know at the time. I found out his
Speaker 1: name later, has stabbed us seventeen times. That beat over
Speaker 1: the face with a hammer in the bathtub in front
Speaker 1: of a two year old son, e J And uh,
Speaker 1: that was just the start of it. I've heard the
Speaker 1: story and he's just an amazing guy, and you talk
Speaker 1: about it. It's one thing, you know, to go to
Speaker 1: jail for shoplifting or whatever. Chasing acts only killed a guy,
Speaker 1: and he fights that every single day and he's dedicated
Speaker 1: his life to try to give back. He's helping so
Speaker 1: many people down in Florida to try to get their
Speaker 1: lives together. But he's in constant redemption mode. And there's
Speaker 1: something you have to love about that. I think he
Speaker 1: spoke a little bit about your family, right and uh,
Speaker 1: you know you have your kids and this redemption idea. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, have you had this conversations about you know,
Speaker 1: what you went through and what you're going through now?
Speaker 1: Not so much now, but yeah, definitely. You know the
Speaker 1: stuff that um, you know landed me in in jail
Speaker 1: and in rehab three different times. They know that all
Speaker 1: too well. Um, you know, they were there when I
Speaker 1: was going to these rehab places. And you know that
Speaker 1: was something that I never I never kept from family
Speaker 1: and friends. Everybody that knew me. You know, Steve Nash
Speaker 1: and Evan are are guys on here. Everybody knew that
Speaker 1: I had an addiction to painkillers and that I had
Speaker 1: been fighting it. I'd been in and how to rehab
Speaker 1: in and ow to rehab and just it was nothing
Speaker 1: I tried to keep from anybody. Um, but at some
Speaker 1: point I just started isolating myself and hiding and I
Speaker 1: didn't you know, Uh, I just wasn't very healthy and
Speaker 1: mentally and um, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful every
Speaker 1: day for the friends and family that I think growing
Speaker 1: up and being known from such a young age, I
Speaker 1: lost track of people that I I didn't know if
Speaker 1: they loved me for me or if they love me
Speaker 1: because I was a basketball player. And I think I
Speaker 1: got kind of just got lost with that. And I've
Speaker 1: been so heartened over the last few years to know that,
Speaker 1: you know, there are people that really, you know, that
Speaker 1: were there for me when they didn't have to be.
Speaker 1: And uh almost makes me want to cry every time
Speaker 1: I think about it. Yeah, it's amazing how much our
Speaker 1: self worth is based on For athletes, it's on your performance.
Speaker 1: And you know, I never thought about from your perspective.
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm saying, like, wow, there's so much pressure
Speaker 1: on their own self worth of how good you are,
Speaker 1: what you are in the sport and in the industry. Um,
Speaker 1: and you forget that you are being a normal person
Speaker 1: is something that you don't get to be most of
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah. Yeah. The weird thing about you know,
Speaker 1: playing a sport for a living is that you do,
Speaker 1: and especially being wired the way I was, you live
Speaker 1: and die with the score of the game and the
Speaker 1: box score. And when that's over, if you've only based
Speaker 1: your self worth on that, now what, now what? And
Speaker 1: you're naturally gonna mourn something that you did for thirty
Speaker 1: years since you were five years old. You put every moment,
Speaker 1: waking moment into being a basketball player. If that's and
Speaker 1: if you're wrapped up in it like that which I was,
Speaker 1: you're gonna mourn the end of that career. You're gonna mourn,
Speaker 1: you know, not being able to go down and do it,
Speaker 1: not take out a little frustration on the practice court,
Speaker 1: running into people and taking out a little aggression. You're
Speaker 1: gonna mourn the addiction. And it is when you get
Speaker 1: red hot, make three threes, get eleven points in under
Speaker 1: a minute, and force the other coach to burn one
Speaker 1: of his five time outs. That's an adrenaline rush that
Speaker 1: you can't you can't bottle that you can't you can't
Speaker 1: get that back. And when those things are gone. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a big void. And I think that all of
Speaker 1: that kind of played into me just right away falling
Speaker 1: in love with this pain medication that I was really
Speaker 1: using for my sadness to kind of mask what I
Speaker 1: was feeling, and it was just a slippery, slippery slope
Speaker 1: met artests. What was the one thing you didn't get
Speaker 1: to ask him about? Yeah, I did. I might have
Speaker 1: mentioned it earlier. I would have liked to have gone
Speaker 1: in because I didn't really. I guess maybe I had forgotten,
Speaker 1: you know, just how funky the relationship with Ben Wallace was,
Speaker 1: And understandably I could have forgotten because I spent much
Speaker 1: of that less, much of that time on pain killers.
Speaker 1: So but when I got done with with Ron's pod
Speaker 1: and it was I think it was the first one
Speaker 1: we did. Um, I felt good about it, but it
Speaker 1: was just the first one, and I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to expect, and I wanted to be sure that whatever
Speaker 1: we did, it was gonna make him, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: allow him to be able to tell his story because
Speaker 1: he's a terrific storyteller. The other thing about that just
Speaker 1: blew me away with him. I mean, we're in the
Speaker 1: first ten minutes of the pod and out of nowhere
Speaker 1: he said he was going to be an engineer, wanted
Speaker 1: to be an engineer. I think, Um, I was like
Speaker 1: what he said, Yeah, I was gonna go down to Miami.
Speaker 1: And you hear him talking and then he starts talking
Speaker 1: about the public housing in uh New York and new
Speaker 1: about the different buildings, And you wouldn't have known this
Speaker 1: about about him. You wouldn't have known it if he
Speaker 1: hadn't felt comfortable enough to sit down and spend an hour,
Speaker 1: hour and a half talking to me about it. And
Speaker 1: I think that's really valuable. You know, everybody we talked
Speaker 1: about mental health all the time, and back when Meta
Speaker 1: was kind of going through he was kind of at
Speaker 1: the peak of his basketball powers, he was probably also
Speaker 1: at the peak of his mental worst. And he'll tell
Speaker 1: you that, Um, he was constantly trying to work on himself.
Speaker 1: The problem with that was it wasn't in a day
Speaker 1: and age where people could say that out loud and
Speaker 1: not be judged for it. So he was trying to,
Speaker 1: you know, go to therapy and do these things during
Speaker 1: a time where if people found out about that, they
Speaker 1: would have made fun of him. And I'm just happy
Speaker 1: that now at he's not fifty yet, but in his forties,
Speaker 1: his you know, he's gonna make a bigger difference what
Speaker 1: he's doing now and for the rest of his life
Speaker 1: than he did as a basketball player. And he had
Speaker 1: one hell of a career. He did, he truly did.
Speaker 1: And and then his voice is so powerful and it's
Speaker 1: exciting to see what he's gonna do next. She spoke
Speaker 1: a little bit aout Jason Williams. Um, what about his
Speaker 1: uh sort of situation made it feel so tragic? A Um,
Speaker 1: you know, Jason For people that might not have remembered,
Speaker 1: Jason was kind of Charles Barkley before Charles as a
Speaker 1: media person. Uh. When Jason broke his leg and his
Speaker 1: and essentially ended his career, he went straight into working
Speaker 1: for NBC and killing it. I mean, he was doing
Speaker 1: like Olympic coverage and was He's just uh magic on television,
Speaker 1: a bigger than life personality. And we were contemporaries. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I think he's a couple of years older,
Speaker 1: but we were in the same I think in the
Speaker 1: same draft or one draft apart maybe. So I've known
Speaker 1: Jay a long time and one of my good buddies.
Speaker 1: Was on Jason's team, uh in Jersey, and that's Sam
Speaker 1: Booie And so Sam and I really are really close,
Speaker 1: and therefore Jason and I kind of became buddies as
Speaker 1: well during that time when I didn't play on his
Speaker 1: team or anything, I just kind of knew him through Sam,
Speaker 1: and so I've known all these stories. Um, Jason had
Speaker 1: a bad alcohol problem. Uh, He'd be the first to
Speaker 1: tell you when it ran in his family. Hearing him
Speaker 1: explain about his sister, you know, being beaten within an
Speaker 1: inch of her life and all of the horrible things
Speaker 1: he witnessed as a kid. If you can listen to
Speaker 1: that and and not have some sort of empathy for
Speaker 1: for Jason Williams, then I don't know. You're you're a
Speaker 1: lot colder than I am. I guess I I he
Speaker 1: what a story, what a life? And it'd be one
Speaker 1: thing if he, you know, was just farting around and
Speaker 1: not not doing anything. Now he's every day waking up
Speaker 1: and and trying to be the best version of himself
Speaker 1: and trying to really help others. And he has he
Speaker 1: Jake constantly has six or seven p pulled down in
Speaker 1: Florida with him getting up in the morning at five am,
Speaker 1: going to lift, going out on a boat, power boat,
Speaker 1: going jet skiing. Um, people who are really trying to
Speaker 1: get their life back on track, and he shows them
Speaker 1: a model. It doesn't work for everybody, but Jason is
Speaker 1: a great motivator, and I'm just so proud of what
Speaker 1: he's done. And you know, I was hesitant to even
Speaker 1: ask him to do this because I know how hard
Speaker 1: it is for him to do and how and to
Speaker 1: talk about. But he's so good at it. He's so
Speaker 1: good at it, and I think it's important for people
Speaker 1: to hear his story. You know, one of my favorite
Speaker 1: interviews with with Kyle Brian because it was such a
Speaker 1: different sort of experience and such a different sort of
Speaker 1: refreshing perspective. Tell me about that, Tell me about what
Speaker 1: you thought about this, getting into that conversation and and
Speaker 1: making sure you do justice to what was so relevant
Speaker 1: at time. Man. Uh, that's you know the other ones
Speaker 1: that we did, even Jay Sin where you talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, someone dying. The interview with Kat I was
Speaker 1: really nervous about and and I think I told her
Speaker 1: right away, I you know, I felt wholly unqualified to
Speaker 1: to do that. Interview. I'd never you know, kind of
Speaker 1: new to the interviewing process, and I wanted to be
Speaker 1: sure and be able to give her the platform to
Speaker 1: tell her story exactly how she wanted to be. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're talking to someone that you've never met before
Speaker 1: about being raped, you know, I just didn't I didn't
Speaker 1: want to suck it up, you know what happened to her.
Speaker 1: I have daughters. I have three daughters, and it's just
Speaker 1: hard to have sisters. It's just hard to think about.
Speaker 1: And um, you know, to be taking advantage of of
Speaker 1: by someone when you're just doing your job, interviewing, going
Speaker 1: to interview someone. The audacity of a man to take
Speaker 1: advantage of a young a young girl early twenties is
Speaker 1: just an abomination. And um, I just wanted to be
Speaker 1: sure that she could tell her story. And man, did
Speaker 1: she know what an example of of grace and um
Speaker 1: and power she's I'm maybe as as proud of that
Speaker 1: one as any of them that we've done. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was it was so powerful I felt. And um, having
Speaker 1: the man's perspective, I think it's you know, and I
Speaker 1: feel like that's sort of our duty to make sure
Speaker 1: we can tell other men this story because I think
Speaker 1: all the women know this, they all know that it's unfair.
Speaker 1: They all have been dealing with this, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: to give her a platform and to hear her voice,
Speaker 1: you're really speaking to a lot of men, you know
Speaker 1: in general too, like this is you, this is what's happening,
Speaker 1: This is what you need to understand, and you understand
Speaker 1: the perspective. And I felt that was that was super powerful.
Speaker 1: So many of your guests talks about the emotional toll
Speaker 1: of being an athlete. Power is to manage all these
Speaker 1: different things, you know, money, fame, failures, and also the success.
Speaker 1: What have you learned about how our society, you know,
Speaker 1: views and sees professional athletes, You know, athletes are still
Speaker 1: they're they're looked at it and as sort of these
Speaker 1: superhuman type of people and when you know that's definitely
Speaker 1: not not the case. Um, amazing, amazing athletes. But man,
Speaker 1: we're all here, We're all just we're all people with
Speaker 1: thoughts inside of our heads. And UM, I think that
Speaker 1: what's been great about this is, you know, hearing some
Speaker 1: of your childhood idols, hockey players and tennis players, and
Speaker 1: hearing these people talk about you know, ship that's happened
Speaker 1: in their life. We all have ship. You never know
Speaker 1: what someone else is going through, And honestly, I feel
Speaker 1: like that that was a big issue with me from
Speaker 1: the time I was a teenager. I knew deep down
Speaker 1: that I was not this all American kid. That I
Speaker 1: was not, you know, the university needed me to be
Speaker 1: like this all American, academic, white kid from the home state,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't that I knew. Heck, at the time,
Speaker 1: I knew I kind of was depressed and I suffered
Speaker 1: from some kind of mental illness. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: it was. I just knew I was unhappy most of
Speaker 1: the time. Um, but I think people don't really maybe
Speaker 1: understand that the pressures that young people can face and
Speaker 1: how it can weigh on them mentally, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I I go back, I think back, and you're just
Speaker 1: trying to juggle a lot and you don't really have
Speaker 1: the resources to bounce things off of people. Hopefully that's
Speaker 1: changing now. Hopefully you know, young young people can and
Speaker 1: will reach out if they need help, uh, to manage situations.
Speaker 1: But back in the eighties, it just wasn't that way. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I think I think it is changing. Right. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're a twenty three year old athlete and there's
Speaker 1: a podcast like this and you grew up watching Matt
Speaker 1: barn and Stephen Jackson um PONZI wells. I mean this
Speaker 1: is they're speaking their truth and they're I go, well,
Speaker 1: that's okay, then I can do it and I can
Speaker 1: change that. And that's how, you know, and culture changes, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's that's exciting. Do you feel
Speaker 1: like that is changing that the the overall sort of
Speaker 1: um perspective of an athlete in the media and mainstream
Speaker 1: I think so, you know, and I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: we can't brush off the the outspokenness of guys like
Speaker 1: Damarta Rosen and Kevin Love in the last you know,
Speaker 1: two or three years who have who have talked about it.
Speaker 1: And I think I spoke about it, um not long ago,
Speaker 1: if not on a pod with a friend. You know.
Speaker 1: There was a guy named Willie Burton when I was playing.
Speaker 1: He was a year or two behind me, played for
Speaker 1: the Miami Heat. Willie got fifty in a in an
Speaker 1: NBA game once. He was a really good player, but
Speaker 1: in the early nineties he had a he just sort
Speaker 1: of had a breakdown, and uh, you know, he came
Speaker 1: out and acknowledged that he suffered from depression, and the world,
Speaker 1: the media ship on him, like depression, What do you
Speaker 1: have to be depressed about? You're making a million dollars
Speaker 1: a year playing basketball for the Miami Heat. Now you
Speaker 1: can imagine what that would have done to Willie. You
Speaker 1: can imagine what it would do to anybody you know
Speaker 1: you'd be hesitant to And Willie spent years, you know,
Speaker 1: battling alcoholism after that. Um, So, Damar de Rosen and
Speaker 1: Kevin Love can come out now and talk about it
Speaker 1: and not get blowback negative blowback. Um, they do get
Speaker 1: some blowbacks. Can not get it and that, yeah, they
Speaker 1: get a little bit. But but you know, even Dak Prescott,
Speaker 1: which a year or so ago, you know, he came
Speaker 1: out after his brother had had committed suicide and said
Speaker 1: he was struggling, and the amount of people that shipped
Speaker 1: on him saying, well, you're supposed to be a quarterback
Speaker 1: of the Dallas Cowboys, how can you show weakness? And
Speaker 1: what what if anything, he's showing strength? Rightly, you had
Speaker 1: more than a few people, you know, struggle with addiction
Speaker 1: like you did. Um, did you learn anything from the
Speaker 1: stories helps you on your path, you know. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: always pick things up from people. The people that really
Speaker 1: did struggle with addiction, A couple of hockey players, Chris Herron, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, many of the many of the people that
Speaker 1: we've had on the best part about it, I think
Speaker 1: is seeing that and you could hear people, you know,
Speaker 1: A A isn't for everyone, Rehab isn't for everyone. Um,
Speaker 1: twelve steps aren't for everyone. I think that there is
Speaker 1: something for everyone, though, You've just got to find what
Speaker 1: that is. And we had so many different guests who
Speaker 1: had different ways of staying clean and sober, and those
Speaker 1: were the things that I, you know, like to hear.
Speaker 1: I like to hear how are you doing it? What
Speaker 1: do you do? Um? What do you do to remind
Speaker 1: yourself every day? I don't like talking about this stuff,
Speaker 1: so in my regular life, if I don't have to
Speaker 1: talk about it, I don't talk about it. But it's
Speaker 1: good is when you do talk about it with someone else,
Speaker 1: it reminds you that, oh, yeah, other people are going
Speaker 1: through this every day right along with you. Rex, everybody,
Speaker 1: somebody out there is going through this, and it's good
Speaker 1: to kind of say misery loves company, but it is
Speaker 1: kind of good to commiserate from time to time with
Speaker 1: people with like backgrounds who had some of the same
Speaker 1: issues and trying to learn and figure out just how
Speaker 1: they're doing it and getting by every day. I think
Speaker 1: that's really powerful. Do you feel like you're still in recovery? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I always will feel that way. Um, how
Speaker 1: is your day to day go? I know you spoke
Speaker 1: about it's been past a little bit, but what is
Speaker 1: your day to day like, I mean, is this still
Speaker 1: creep into your head? No, I'm really lucky from a
Speaker 1: standpoint that. Um, when I well, I I use medical
Speaker 1: marijuana and I have for the last six or seven years.
Speaker 1: I've never once had what I would uh. And this
Speaker 1: wasn't the case when I got out of rehab the
Speaker 1: times before. I always had sort of uh. What I
Speaker 1: felt like was this yearning or jones ng for you know,
Speaker 1: pain killers. I haven't had one now. Some of that was,
Speaker 1: I think too. I had developed ulcers during that time,
Speaker 1: and maybe some of that was I was needing it
Speaker 1: for the pain of the ulcers. But I don't. I
Speaker 1: swim every day, I get up, I try to go
Speaker 1: swim every day at least five days a week. Um,
Speaker 1: I walk. Those two things get me away from my
Speaker 1: phone for a while. I can just be in the water,
Speaker 1: uh forty five minutes to an hour sort some things
Speaker 1: out in my head. I feel like I've kind of
Speaker 1: earned the rest of my day, you know. And there
Speaker 1: then there are times that you know, I need to talk.
Speaker 1: And you know, I still have my therapist that I
Speaker 1: talked to regularly, and I'll give her a call and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about things. The life's hard, man, and it's
Speaker 1: hard for everyone. I always feel like the people who
Speaker 1: pretend like it's just great all the time are really
Speaker 1: either are super super lucky or they're full of ship.
Speaker 1: So um, but life's hard. And you know, I try
Speaker 1: to stay on top of myself because I know, um
Speaker 1: how easily it can go the other way. Wow, that's
Speaker 1: strong man. With mental health and addiction, what do you
Speaker 1: think needs to be done about this issue inside and
Speaker 1: outside of sports? Well, you know, I think hopefully colleges
Speaker 1: will uh step up and make sure that they have
Speaker 1: mental health professionals on staff. Uh. You know, basketball program,
Speaker 1: football program, everybody has mental health professionals. I'm really proud
Speaker 1: of the n b A and what they've done over
Speaker 1: the last two years, they have, UM, you know, implemented
Speaker 1: a system where each team must have a mental health
Speaker 1: professional on staff. UM. And I think that's a step
Speaker 1: in the right direction. Now, if I'm a player and
Speaker 1: I've some issues that mine necessarily going to go to
Speaker 1: the in house therapist, UM, I don't know, because I
Speaker 1: don't know how as a twenty five year old, I
Speaker 1: don't know how comfortable I would feel with that person
Speaker 1: not running and telling my business to the coaches and
Speaker 1: the and people that you know are on the inside.
Speaker 1: I think it's a step in the right direction. But
Speaker 1: more than anything, I'm just happy that we're doing something
Speaker 1: about it. You know, we saw in the Olympics last
Speaker 1: year with Naomi Osaka and Someone Biles and and these
Speaker 1: young ladies who were anybody who could possibly think that
Speaker 1: Someone Biles just opted out because she was scared of
Speaker 1: what she's the greatest gymnast of all times, she got
Speaker 1: a mental block and could have really hurt herself. In fact,
Speaker 1: if she'd gone on and just fucked her routine up,
Speaker 1: they'd lost the medal. What she did was get out
Speaker 1: of the way so that the team could excel. And
Speaker 1: I just think there has to continue to be more
Speaker 1: dialogue where people can they can say, hey, look I
Speaker 1: need a day. I don't need to do the media today.
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling it and not be judged for it.
Speaker 1: You know, these people are out here entertaining us, entertaining us,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's the least we can
Speaker 1: do is to have some compassion for how they're feeling
Speaker 1: mentally from time to time. And the one I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that's it's it's so crazy how these conversations
Speaker 1: were just having a conversation about therapy like that needs
Speaker 1: to be brought out in the forefront, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, do you remember in Sopranos when the therapists
Speaker 1: was talking, you know, it was like, wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: That would just show something like that. And almost every
Speaker 1: TV show now has a therapist somewhere in it, and
Speaker 1: it's becoming more of a thing like, oh, I should
Speaker 1: to get a therapist, I should talk to therapy. How
Speaker 1: does that become part of just the integral part of sports?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure, but you know, and I
Speaker 1: was talking about this the other day with a friend.
Speaker 1: Rehab is terrible going to rehabilitation like drug rehab. It's awful,
Speaker 1: There's no two ways about it. But if you're in
Speaker 1: there and you're trying, and you're being earnest and you
Speaker 1: are you know, listening, it's one of the most fascinating places,
Speaker 1: uh you can ever learn from other people, people from
Speaker 1: different walks, uh, different socioeconomic backgrounds, different races, um genders.
Speaker 1: And you know when we say it often in in
Speaker 1: therapy that when you get into a group like that
Speaker 1: and you start talking about your problems, you realize your
Speaker 1: problems aren't you know, you wouldn't trade with these other
Speaker 1: people your problems. You know, everybody's got a lot of ship,
Speaker 1: and you start listening to other people's stuff and you
Speaker 1: realize that your problems are maybe aren't as as great
Speaker 1: as you thought. Um. So it gives you a healthy
Speaker 1: dose of perspective because you realize, really and truly you
Speaker 1: see people breaking down and crying and their most vulnerable
Speaker 1: and worse time around no family members, blabbing to complete strangers.
Speaker 1: And there's something very powerful about that if you're you
Speaker 1: know again, I went to rehab three times. In the
Speaker 1: first two times, I didn't really pay attention. The last
Speaker 1: time I did, and I'm so thankful for it. Do
Speaker 1: you think going forward? I mean, it sounds like you
Speaker 1: have a passion for this sort of you of of
Speaker 1: conversation of issues and of dealing with issues and getting
Speaker 1: people to tell their stories, right this is is this
Speaker 1: something that you think you will always want to do
Speaker 1: going forward? Or is this just this charges episodes? Um? No,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think the response has been
Speaker 1: so so positive that there's obviously a a bit of
Speaker 1: a niche for it. I think, um, people want to
Speaker 1: hear these stories, and you know, if I weren't doing them,
Speaker 1: I think I would you know, if somebody told me
Speaker 1: about a pod like that, I'd be like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna check that one out. And I think the other
Speaker 1: thing for me that kind of makes me want to continue,
Speaker 1: uh doing it is that almost every episode, well every episode,
Speaker 1: we'll get into the the questions and at some point
Speaker 1: I forget we're even doing a podcast. I forget and
Speaker 1: get So we have two or three times today you
Speaker 1: just get engrossed in the conversation and you kind of
Speaker 1: forget everything else and everyone else. Um and in this
Speaker 1: short attention span world, you know, forty five minutes or
Speaker 1: an hour's about as much as anybody can can hang on.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm happy that our guys have done such
Speaker 1: a fantastic job producing this this show and kind of
Speaker 1: bringing it to life. Um so, what has been the
Speaker 1: feedback from this? Has there been moments, letters, messages, dm
Speaker 1: s that are just kind of blew your mind. I
Speaker 1: get about a year ago I opened up my direct
Speaker 1: Messages on Twitter where anybody can send messages, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, I there's no way to go through all
Speaker 1: of them, but every day, every day, and if you
Speaker 1: just look at the comments on Twitter when we post
Speaker 1: the episodes, but every day, uh, direct messages from just
Speaker 1: people who well they don't even know if I'm going
Speaker 1: to see their messages to begin in with, right, they
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm gonna look at them. And people
Speaker 1: just open up their hearts and they're like my brother,
Speaker 1: you know, he went to service a few years ago,
Speaker 1: came back, big drug problem, my dad, my mom. So
Speaker 1: there's definitely something there where it's touching some kind of
Speaker 1: a piece of these people when they listen to the
Speaker 1: pod that prompts them to want to express uh you
Speaker 1: know how they felt listening to it and that's really
Speaker 1: cool since we're near Christmas. Um, I always think about
Speaker 1: this the movie It's a wonderful life, right, and going
Speaker 1: back in time and gain perspective, right, which is a
Speaker 1: big sort of theme. We've been discussing about it here
Speaker 1: as is perspective, and um, so I'm gonna put you,
Speaker 1: uh back in time as it goes to yourself. We're
Speaker 1: gonna go to uh somewhat dark face going to the
Speaker 1: jail cell with that naked dude who was jacking off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that changed sensitivid picture for me. I don't
Speaker 1: think I'll ever forget that story. Yeah. Yeah, And you
Speaker 1: know you're seeing yourself in the mirror and then and
Speaker 1: now you're there. What would you tell that Rex at
Speaker 1: that moment? Or would you just let him go? You know,
Speaker 1: obviously you never forget it. But I was so confused
Speaker 1: as to what was happening. I think I kind of
Speaker 1: knew why why I was in there, but nobody was
Speaker 1: telling me at this point. And I was just really
Speaker 1: really confused, and also had and made a phone call.
Speaker 1: And you can imagine two taking a lot of pain
Speaker 1: medicine and I, you know, you used to know all
Speaker 1: your friends phone numbers. I don't know any phone numbers now,
Speaker 1: they're just under a name in my phone. And so
Speaker 1: one of the officers said, uh, you know you can
Speaker 1: make a call. I said, I don't know any phone numbers.
Speaker 1: So you brought my phone, said find the number. As
Speaker 1: soon as I turned my phone on, it was just
Speaker 1: blowing up because I guess you know, news had reported
Speaker 1: that I had been arrested. But I only saw one
Speaker 1: message just pop right up and as my best friend
Speaker 1: Josh Hopkins, and he said, I don't know what happened,
Speaker 1: just know that I love you and it's gonna be okay.
Speaker 1: And I had so many of those. I don't know
Speaker 1: that I could. I don't know what I would tell
Speaker 1: myself in that cell other than just stay the course,
Speaker 1: because you know, I had people. I had people from
Speaker 1: that day forward telling me, hey, Rex, just relax, a
Speaker 1: year from now, your life is going to be so good. Well,
Speaker 1: all those people fucking lied to me. It took longer
Speaker 1: than a year. Then it would be the next year.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm still in legal problems. You know, it
Speaker 1: seems like two steps forward, one step back. Um, even
Speaker 1: a year later, it's still sucked, but slowly but surely
Speaker 1: things started getting better. And it probably took a good
Speaker 1: five years before I could have ever said, you know
Speaker 1: that I felt like things were starting to kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, go in the right direction. I'm not the
Speaker 1: most patient person in the world. And those five years
Speaker 1: three two, three four or five years of really you know,
Speaker 1: building back and trying to re established myself in some
Speaker 1: kind of career. Um, it was hard as ship at first.
Speaker 1: And it's still you know, Um, it's all good, it's
Speaker 1: all good stuff, but even good stuff is stressful. And
Speaker 1: so you know, there's more on my plate and I
Speaker 1: gotta stay more diligent about doing things that I have
Speaker 1: to do for my mental health every day. If I
Speaker 1: don't do those things, I could just you know, fall
Speaker 1: right off. So, UM, I'm just I'm grateful. I'm grateful
Speaker 1: to still be here and be able to you know,
Speaker 1: be doing something with this that's kind of making a
Speaker 1: positive impact, that's making a super positive thing. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's it's a huge if fact this is I'm just
Speaker 1: I'm so proud to be a part of this series
Speaker 1: and and you know that talk to you on this
Speaker 1: last episode. Um, thanks, bro, here's a big question. You
Speaker 1: may not have the answer yet, But where do you
Speaker 1: want to take this show next and what are your
Speaker 1: hopes and dreams for it? Well, you know, as powerful
Speaker 1: as the some of the pods have been doing them
Speaker 1: in this format, you know, really on the computer. Um,
Speaker 1: I think it's been fantastic. I think when Steve and
Speaker 1: Ezra and Brandon, those guys set out, I think we
Speaker 1: all kind of uh pictured it being an in person
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And my feeling on that is that
Speaker 1: it's sort of tailor made for for TV or streaming.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm just thinking back about, you know,
Speaker 1: a handful of that we did this year. If we
Speaker 1: were able to sit in the studio with the guys
Speaker 1: one on one, with the people one on one, I
Speaker 1: think that you're liable to get even more, even more stuff,
Speaker 1: even more honesty and um so you know, who knows
Speaker 1: where it'll go. But I wouldn't mind trying that as
Speaker 1: you will, as you should. Man, I'm excited to keep
Speaker 1: telling these stories and doing so in a way that
Speaker 1: reaches as many people as possible. It seems every week
Speaker 1: there's a new scandal with an athlete at the center
Speaker 1: of it, and there's not a lot of nuance when
Speaker 1: it just explodes on Twitter or in the media. So
Speaker 1: I'm hoping this will be a forum where we can
Speaker 1: give space to talk about these issues openly and honestly
Speaker 1: and really really learn from what people have gone through.
Speaker 1: All Right, that's a rap FV. That's a wrap on
Speaker 1: Season one of Charges. I want to thank all of
Speaker 1: our guests for bravely sharing their stories with me and
Speaker 1: you and our listeners. I want to thank our production
Speaker 1: crew DV Podcast Jordans, Miles, Ben and Scott. I also
Speaker 1: want to thank the team at port Lay and I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, and I want to thank Control Media and
Speaker 1: my former teammate and my buddy Stevie Nash. This has
Speaker 1: been one hell of a ride and it feels like
Speaker 1: we're just getting started. Charges Severing no run NaNs with
Speaker 1: the Law charges, Lee send the tennis and balls and charges.
Speaker 1: The celebrity gankums charges we came along with from Living Law.
Speaker 1: That's charges Seveing, no run NaNs with the Law charges,
Speaker 1: Lee send the tennis and balls and charges the celebrity
Speaker 1: gank bums charge we came along with from Living Lawless Charge.
Speaker 1: Charges as created by Portalay and Control Media, is produced
Speaker 1: by DV podcasts in association with I heart Radio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit i heart radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.