WEBVTT - Vol. 20: Rex Chapman ft. Evan Jackson Leong 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:08.200 Welcome to Charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. Wow. When 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.080 an incredible journey this first season of Charges has been. 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.720 You know, when I started this process and this podcast, 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.440 I wasn't totally sure what to expect of me as 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.040 a host, of our guests and their desire to be 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.200 open with me, and of the reception of the show. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.360 I must tell you it's been incredible. The guests we've had, 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.280 the stories they've told, the moments and relationships, and most importantly, 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.640 the feedback and responses we've received from our listeners. It 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.800 has made me so proud. For now, I wanted to 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.720 put the finishing touch on season one, and as my 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.800 guest today knows, no matter how nice the drive or 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:47.760 the attempt, what really matters is the finish and finishing strong. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.839 So my thought for this topic was to bring on filmmaker, producer, director, 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.640 and basketball fan Evan leon helped me sort through all 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.320 we've been through this season and have a discussion about 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.640 the process of telling stories. You may know the name 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.080 Evan Leong from his work as director of documentary Len 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.440 Sanity about the incredible rise of Jeremy Lynn on the 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.000 New York Knicks. But if you've seen the film. You 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.080 know that the story we all kind of knew about Jeremy, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.640 there was so much more and that documentary is a 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:31.039 must see for any sports fan. This is Charges Charges Evan. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.840 Welcome to Charges, buddy. It's really really great to be here. 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.959 I mean volume twenty, I mean, I'm I'm become a 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.120 super fan of the show, and you know, it's truly 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.480 truly honored to be here. Why do you like the show? 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.040 Why do I like the show? I mean this is 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:50.800 you create this level of empathy and vulnerability that it's 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.880 just so hard to to see, you know, to experience 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.720 these days. Right, I think you know the way this 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.360 industry works, and especially the sports industry. You know, we're 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.480 trained to think of athletes as a brand, as an 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.680 idea of as as as simple as icon. But you know, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.000 they're humans. They're just like me. They're just like you know, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.360 every all the fans out there. You know what's weird 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.840 about that is, I'm we talked about the vulnerability. I know, 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.200 when I started speaking to groups about drug issues and whatnot, 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.400 the main thing that people want want to see and 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.520 here is your vulnerability. They want to know that you're 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.760 you're human, just like they are, And then I thought, 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.320 our guests all season long this year. You know, obviously 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.560 they're coming on a show called charges Um with my 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:38.600 mug shot on the things, so they know they're not 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.440 going to talk about the best times of their life. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.280 But what I think that, you know, our our whole 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.920 crew has done a terrific job of just you know, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.399 really researching the guys and ladies and gentlemen that we've 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.880 had on the show. And you know, obviously we try 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.760 to build everybody up as much as we can, UM, 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:01.760 but then they know they're coming on to talk about 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.680 arguably the worst time in their life. And I just 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.160 can't say enough about these people who have come on 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.480 and shared these amazing stories with us. Yeah, I mean, 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.919 it's exciting to see you know, I mean, I grew 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:15.480 up in the same area as you, the eighties and 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:20.040 the nineties, masculinity, man protection. We don't share our emotions 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.200 and and it's crazy to see how honest we can 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:28.320 be in right, And it's exciting to have someone like 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.280 you be, you know, one of these these culture makers 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.480 of this era. And so Um, I'm really excited to 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:36.120 talk to you about all these things because you know, 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.880 episode one to episode twenty. This is I've got to 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:45.560 see you grow as well. Yeah, yeah, you know. Uh 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:50.160 when Steve Nash and and uh Ezra and Brandon are producers, 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.440 the guys who kind of came up with this idea. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:56.480 When they contacted me about it, I couldn't really visualize that. 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.200 I'm not that bright anyway, but they I couldn't really 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.360 even tell what they were talking about until we started 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.400 getting into it. And then once I got the concept, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.680 I was like, oh man, you know, if we do 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.080 that the right way, it might be pretty compelling and 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.520 just to see, you know, and to be completely honest, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.200 I'd never interviewed anybody ever ever. You know, Um, I've 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.360 been interviewed since I was fifteen, and you know, can 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.040 do this stuff much better than being the host. So 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.240 I was very nervous and still get nervous doing this stuff. 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.919 The other part about it that I found and I 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.680 hearing back from some of the people that have been 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:40.000 on the show. If you've been in therapy or if 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.120 you've been in treatment, you've probably been in therapy and 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.880 it feels cathartic in many ways. When I get I 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:50.920 worry about doing the show because I want to do 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.520 right by the guests. Inevitably, though, when I get off, 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.720 I just feel better. I feel like, Okay, well, you know, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.080 we've talked through some pretty tough and motions today and 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:02.719 you feel like, you know, well, I've put in a 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.680 good day's work. So that's been really rewarding. What made 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.600 you want to do a show like this? What were 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.120 you hoping for? You know, Steve and I have known 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.960 each other for twenty some years now, and um, he's 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.880 just he's the best. And when he called and said, hey, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.160 you know, would you be interested in doing this again? 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.440 I I've just kind of been building my life back 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.480 for the last few years and I was looking for 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.320 more to do, and um, you know, it took us 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.960 a little while, and then obviously the pandemic set in. 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.720 I think we were going to try to do you know, 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.159 a lot of this stuff live or with people in person, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.280 but that kind of the pandemic kind of pushed everything 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.279 to zoom. So you know, we've we've tried to adjust 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.440 and I think it's gone really well. I'm so thankful 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.080 for the guests, but uh, yeah, there were a lot 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.920 of nerves going into it, for sure. Yeah, besides becoming 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.760 you know, a talent you know, becoming more in this 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.880 media world. What were you hoping for? Is there anything 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.720 personally you're looking for? No, you know, I before I 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:13.279 say no, I think that you know, I'm constantly looking 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:20.200 for redemption and trying to you know, redeem myself. And yeah, 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.000 as much for me, but for my my kids. You know, 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.240 I've got kids that are twenty nine and twenty six 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.159 and twenty two and twenty one, and when I was 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.800 going through my ship, they were young people, and um, 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.640 you know I I'm just constantly trying to make up, 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.599 make up for you know, things that I've done and 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:45.239 and try to hopefully redeem myself continue to redeem myself 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.240 in their eyes. So yeah, I wanted to try to 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.320 do something positive. And yes, we're talking about you know, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.200 drugs and alcohol and um, you know, people going to 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.240 jail in prison and stuff like that. And I don't 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.680 know if it can be called uplifting. I think the 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.599 way that we've gone about doing it where we you know, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.200 we talked about this person's whole career, all the good stuff, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.600 and then give them the opportunity to talk about you know, 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.200 the episode we did with Bonds E Wells I thought 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.920 was really powerful um, you know, because I remember that 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:25.440 jail blazers team, jail blazers. Do you remember the first 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.360 time you heard the term jail blazers? How did it 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:32.320 make you feel? Man? When I first heard it, man, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.720 I thought it was cool at first, because you know 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.679 what I'm saying, I didn't understand. I wasn't thinking about 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.680 the cultural part of it. In a weird way, it 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.880 kind of reminded me of like the Raiders, you know, 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.400 or the bad Boys, Like that was bad boys. That 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.720 was our identity. Like okay, that's who we are with 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.080 some bad boys. You know what I'm saying. I like 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.760 I internalized that in my mind. Is like it's in 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.120 term of endearment at first, you know what I mean, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.480 Like okay, but until they just started, you know, putting 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.320 thugs said, you know, you're we read the articles and stuff. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:03.960 So then when you can start seeing the thugs and 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:05.880 quotes and all this stuff, you be like, hold up, bro, 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:07.840 hold up, hold up, and I can call us jail 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.480 blazers and we are here on some tough guys stuff, 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.320 but don't put that on us, like we're really going 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.400 to jail and we're doing this stuff, because that's real, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.960 Like they don't understand, like how that stuff follows you 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.280 throughout your whole life and your whole career and and 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.120 one thing as a black man, we don't want our 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:30.840 names associated with being in jail the rest of the league. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.560 At the time, you know, this was kind of pre internet. 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:38.320 Really um, we were like, man, the media is treating 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:43.880 those guys really bad, really bad. And talking to Bondsi, 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.760 I just it. It just kept coming back to me 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.160 as I'm watching him, I'm like, man, I wish you 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.200 and Rashid could have had a podcast when you were playing. 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.280 While you guys were going through this, so that the 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.040 public could know from your standpoint what was going on 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:04.000 and not constantly being fed the the Trailblazer's PR team 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.520 or some or a writer's opinion. We were able to 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.440 get it. I think all of these have just been 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.920 amazing because we're able to get, you know, the story 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.800 right from the source. I don't normally listen to the 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.760 things that I do or watch the things that I do, 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.200 because I normally don't like any of the stuff that 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.680 I do. But I did listen to about the first 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:31.640 fifteen or twenty minutes of Jason's pod and just started crying, 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.600 just started crying. And I know the story. I've known 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.680 him for thirty years, so real quick. I grew up 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.000 on the Louist side of Manhattan. I came home. I 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.960 was about thirteen and a half years old. Uh. I 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.680 was staying with my sister at the time. We would 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.000 only live building. The building depend on how if I 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.360 missed curfew. That means when the lights went on outside, 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:57.599 I can always run over to her house and she 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.440 would tell a lie to my dad that I was 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.560 over there. But this time it was an awakening. I 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.080 got out the elevator, I saw your business amount of blood. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.680 I looked down the hallway and the blood got thicker 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.960 and thicker, and it led until my sister's apartment when 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.960 I went into them. My sister six ft one, she's 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.920 about a hundred and thirty pounds. She was a model, 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:27.960 a supermodel. And Uh, A guy named Sergio, who I 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.000 did not know at the time. I found out his 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.600 name later, has stabbed us seventeen times. That beat over 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.880 the face with a hammer in the bathtub in front 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.880 of a two year old son, e J And uh, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.880 that was just the start of it. I've heard the 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:51.439 story and he's just an amazing guy, and you talk 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:56.240 about it. It's one thing, you know, to go to 0:10:56.360 --> 0:11:01.320 jail for shoplifting or whatever. Chasing acts only killed a guy, 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.760 and he fights that every single day and he's dedicated 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.280 his life to try to give back. He's helping so 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.319 many people down in Florida to try to get their 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.560 lives together. But he's in constant redemption mode. And there's 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:20.880 something you have to love about that. I think he 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.760 spoke a little bit about your family, right and uh, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.920 you know you have your kids and this redemption idea. Um, 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.760 I mean, have you had this conversations about you know, 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.520 what you went through and what you're going through now? 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.240 Not so much now, but yeah, definitely. You know the 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:41.800 stuff that um, you know landed me in in jail 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.880 and in rehab three different times. They know that all 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.880 too well. Um, you know, they were there when I 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.840 was going to these rehab places. And you know that 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.760 was something that I never I never kept from family 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.640 and friends. Everybody that knew me. You know, Steve Nash 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.080 and Evan are are guys on here. Everybody knew that 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.800 I had an addiction to painkillers and that I had 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.840 been fighting it. I'd been in and how to rehab 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:14.160 in and ow to rehab and just it was nothing 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.120 I tried to keep from anybody. Um, but at some 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.600 point I just started isolating myself and hiding and I 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.360 didn't you know, Uh, I just wasn't very healthy and 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:30.560 mentally and um, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful every 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.400 day for the friends and family that I think growing 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:36.840 up and being known from such a young age, I 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.200 lost track of people that I I didn't know if 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.440 they loved me for me or if they love me 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:46.480 because I was a basketball player. And I think I 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.440 got kind of just got lost with that. And I've 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.680 been so heartened over the last few years to know that, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.320 you know, there are people that really, you know, that 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.400 were there for me when they didn't have to be. 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.880 And uh almost makes me want to cry every time 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.679 I think about it. Yeah, it's amazing how much our 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:11.280 self worth is based on For athletes, it's on your performance. 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.240 And you know, I never thought about from your perspective. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.560 Right now, I'm saying, like, wow, there's so much pressure 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.760 on their own self worth of how good you are, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.360 what you are in the sport and in the industry. Um, 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.520 and you forget that you are being a normal person 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.840 is something that you don't get to be most of 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:33.040 the time. Yeah. Yeah. The weird thing about you know, 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.120 playing a sport for a living is that you do, 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.280 and especially being wired the way I was, you live 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.440 and die with the score of the game and the 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:49.640 box score. And when that's over, if you've only based 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:55.280 your self worth on that, now what, now what? And 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.800 you're naturally gonna mourn something that you did for thirty 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.800 years since you were five years old. You put every moment, 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:09.840 waking moment into being a basketball player. If that's and 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.600 if you're wrapped up in it like that which I was, 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.120 you're gonna mourn the end of that career. You're gonna mourn, 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.560 you know, not being able to go down and do it, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.000 not take out a little frustration on the practice court, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.240 running into people and taking out a little aggression. You're 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:29.520 gonna mourn the addiction. And it is when you get 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:36.200 red hot, make three threes, get eleven points in under 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.400 a minute, and force the other coach to burn one 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.400 of his five time outs. That's an adrenaline rush that 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.200 you can't you can't bottle that you can't you can't 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.400 get that back. And when those things are gone. Um, 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:54.120 there's a big void. And I think that all of 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.520 that kind of played into me just right away falling 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:03.840 in love with this pain medication that I was really 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:08.160 using for my sadness to kind of mask what I 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:12.560 was feeling, and it was just a slippery, slippery slope 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.120 met artests. What was the one thing you didn't get 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.240 to ask him about? Yeah, I did. I might have 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.200 mentioned it earlier. I would have liked to have gone 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.760 in because I didn't really. I guess maybe I had forgotten, 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:32.960 you know, just how funky the relationship with Ben Wallace was, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:38.040 And understandably I could have forgotten because I spent much 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:42.800 of that less, much of that time on pain killers. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.600 So but when I got done with with Ron's pod 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:48.360 and it was I think it was the first one 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:53.160 we did. Um, I felt good about it, but it 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.080 was just the first one, and I didn't know what 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.360 to expect, and I wanted to be sure that whatever 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.920 we did, it was gonna make him, you know, uh, 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.240 allow him to be able to tell his story because 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.560 he's a terrific storyteller. The other thing about that just 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.440 blew me away with him. I mean, we're in the 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.920 first ten minutes of the pod and out of nowhere 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.240 he said he was going to be an engineer, wanted 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.560 to be an engineer. I think, Um, I was like 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:22.800 what he said, Yeah, I was gonna go down to Miami. 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.720 And you hear him talking and then he starts talking 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.800 about the public housing in uh New York and new 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.600 about the different buildings, And you wouldn't have known this 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:39.680 about about him. You wouldn't have known it if he 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.400 hadn't felt comfortable enough to sit down and spend an hour, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:44.920 hour and a half talking to me about it. And 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.960 I think that's really valuable. You know, everybody we talked 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.320 about mental health all the time, and back when Meta 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.360 was kind of going through he was kind of at 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:00.360 the peak of his basketball powers, he was probably also 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.160 at the peak of his mental worst. And he'll tell 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.320 you that, Um, he was constantly trying to work on himself. 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.960 The problem with that was it wasn't in a day 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.159 and age where people could say that out loud and 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.280 not be judged for it. So he was trying to, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.400 you know, go to therapy and do these things during 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.439 a time where if people found out about that, they 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.840 would have made fun of him. And I'm just happy 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.960 that now at he's not fifty yet, but in his forties, 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:37.080 his you know, he's gonna make a bigger difference what 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.280 he's doing now and for the rest of his life 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.520 than he did as a basketball player. And he had 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.120 one hell of a career. He did, he truly did. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.760 And and then his voice is so powerful and it's 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.440 exciting to see what he's gonna do next. She spoke 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.560 a little bit aout Jason Williams. Um, what about his 0:17:55.160 --> 0:18:01.280 uh sort of situation made it feel so tragic? A Um, 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:05.480 you know, Jason For people that might not have remembered, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.960 Jason was kind of Charles Barkley before Charles as a 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.199 media person. Uh. When Jason broke his leg and his 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.760 and essentially ended his career, he went straight into working 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.920 for NBC and killing it. I mean, he was doing 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:25.439 like Olympic coverage and was He's just uh magic on television, 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:31.480 a bigger than life personality. And we were contemporaries. I mean, 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.119 I think I think he's a couple of years older, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:35.960 but we were in the same I think in the 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.320 same draft or one draft apart maybe. So I've known 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:44.760 Jay a long time and one of my good buddies. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.000 Was on Jason's team, uh in Jersey, and that's Sam 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:53.240 Booie And so Sam and I really are really close, 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.479 and therefore Jason and I kind of became buddies as 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.240 well during that time when I didn't play on his 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.399 team or anything, I just kind of knew him through Sam, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.360 and so I've known all these stories. Um, Jason had 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.720 a bad alcohol problem. Uh, He'd be the first to 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:14.400 tell you when it ran in his family. Hearing him 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:20.280 explain about his sister, you know, being beaten within an 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.639 inch of her life and all of the horrible things 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.600 he witnessed as a kid. If you can listen to 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.960 that and and not have some sort of empathy for 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.960 for Jason Williams, then I don't know. You're you're a 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.280 lot colder than I am. I guess I I he 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.920 what a story, what a life? And it'd be one 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.439 thing if he, you know, was just farting around and 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:50.760 not not doing anything. Now he's every day waking up 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.200 and and trying to be the best version of himself 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.000 and trying to really help others. And he has he 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.480 Jake constantly has six or seven p pulled down in 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.199 Florida with him getting up in the morning at five am, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:07.280 going to lift, going out on a boat, power boat, 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:11.800 going jet skiing. Um, people who are really trying to 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.120 get their life back on track, and he shows them 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.840 a model. It doesn't work for everybody, but Jason is 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.760 a great motivator, and I'm just so proud of what 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.800 he's done. And you know, I was hesitant to even 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.280 ask him to do this because I know how hard 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:28.439 it is for him to do and how and to 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.800 talk about. But he's so good at it. He's so 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.480 good at it, and I think it's important for people 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.520 to hear his story. You know, one of my favorite 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.040 interviews with with Kyle Brian because it was such a 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.240 different sort of experience and such a different sort of 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.600 refreshing perspective. Tell me about that, Tell me about what 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.159 you thought about this, getting into that conversation and and 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.359 making sure you do justice to what was so relevant 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:58.560 at time. Man. Uh, that's you know the other ones 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.080 that we did, even Jay Sin where you talk about, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.679 you know, someone dying. The interview with Kat I was 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.959 really nervous about and and I think I told her 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:13.359 right away, I you know, I felt wholly unqualified to 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.800 to do that. Interview. I'd never you know, kind of 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.800 new to the interviewing process, and I wanted to be 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.520 sure and be able to give her the platform to 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.280 tell her story exactly how she wanted to be. You know, 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:29.919 when you're talking to someone that you've never met before 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.560 about being raped, you know, I just didn't I didn't 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:35.680 want to suck it up, you know what happened to her. 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.159 I have daughters. I have three daughters, and it's just 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:43.159 hard to have sisters. It's just hard to think about. 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.720 And um, you know, to be taking advantage of of 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:55.480 by someone when you're just doing your job, interviewing, going 0:21:55.520 --> 0:22:02.280 to interview someone. The audacity of a man to take 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:07.719 advantage of a young a young girl early twenties is 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:12.040 just an abomination. And um, I just wanted to be 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:14.480 sure that she could tell her story. And man, did 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:18.480 she know what an example of of grace and um 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:22.879 and power she's I'm maybe as as proud of that 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.000 one as any of them that we've done. Yeah, it 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:31.479 was it was so powerful I felt. And um, having 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.520 the man's perspective, I think it's you know, and I 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:38.479 feel like that's sort of our duty to make sure 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:41.760 we can tell other men this story because I think 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:44.840 all the women know this, they all know that it's unfair. 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.520 They all have been dealing with this, and uh, you know, 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.800 to give her a platform and to hear her voice, 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.359 you're really speaking to a lot of men, you know 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.359 in general too, like this is you, this is what's happening, 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:59.199 This is what you need to understand, and you understand 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:02.960 the perspective. And I felt that was that was super powerful. 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.200 So many of your guests talks about the emotional toll 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.920 of being an athlete. Power is to manage all these 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.600 different things, you know, money, fame, failures, and also the success. 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:18.320 What have you learned about how our society, you know, 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:24.080 views and sees professional athletes, You know, athletes are still 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.719 they're they're looked at it and as sort of these 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:33.840 superhuman type of people and when you know that's definitely 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:40.040 not not the case. Um, amazing, amazing athletes. But man, 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:43.360 we're all here, We're all just we're all people with 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:49.120 thoughts inside of our heads. And UM, I think that 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.280 what's been great about this is, you know, hearing some 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:56.520 of your childhood idols, hockey players and tennis players, and 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:01.919 hearing these people talk about you know, ship that's happened 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:04.600