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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bob Left Steps Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is director Morgan Neville won an Oscar for

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Speaker 1: twenty Feet from Stardom and should have won an Oscar

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Speaker 1: for his Mr. Rogers movie. Morgan, Welcome, Hi Bob. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you were presently working on a Rick Rubin documentary series

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Speaker 1: for Showtime. How did that come together? It came together

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Speaker 1: because somehow Rick and Showtime it started talking to each other.

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Speaker 1: And I think initially the idea was it was going

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Speaker 1: to be more about the studio. So Rick owns the

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Speaker 1: studio Shango Law that originally was put together by the

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Speaker 1: band in the mid seventies, and Bob Dylan ended up

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Speaker 1: spending a lot of time recording there. But other people

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Speaker 1: did too, Eric Clapton and you know, Bunny Raid and

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Speaker 1: on and on. And I was less interested in just

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Speaker 1: doing a commentary about the recording studio than than Rick,

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Speaker 1: because Rick is a fascinating character. So I started meeting

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Speaker 1: with Rick. Let's be clear, Yeah, Rick wanted in Showtime

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Speaker 1: want to do something? Were you there from the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: not the very beginning, but close to it? Okay, there

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Speaker 1: was just this kind of vague idea how long ago.

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Speaker 1: Was this somewhere between a year and a half and

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Speaker 1: two years ago, probably closer to two years ago, So

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Speaker 1: there was a while ago and UM and I think

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Speaker 1: what Rick and I started talking about that I think

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Speaker 1: we both connected about. There were a number of things

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Speaker 1: that we connected about. One was, UM, create a process,

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Speaker 1: you know, how people and kind of the universality of

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Speaker 1: creat a process. It's something I've spent a lot of

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Speaker 1: time making things about. I do a series for Netflix

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Speaker 1: called Abstract about designers, but so much of that show

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Speaker 1: is actually about creative process. And Rick had love that

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Speaker 1: show and we talked about that UM and and Rick

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Speaker 1: is an interesting character too, So I think there was

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Speaker 1: an ongoing debate and continues to be an ongoing debate

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Speaker 1: even though we finished the show as to what UM

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Speaker 1: what the show is because I feel like UM, in

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Speaker 1: Rick's mind, his role as a producer is merely to

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Speaker 1: be a mirror and to reflect what the artist wants.

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Speaker 1: And as I say in the opening of the show,

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Speaker 1: there's a real conversation I had with Rick. I said, well,

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Speaker 1: my job is a documentarian is to reflect you. And

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Speaker 1: if I'm making a reflection of our reflection, that we're

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Speaker 1: going to find ourselves in a hall of mirrors. And

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Speaker 1: Rick said, yeah, isn't that great? And that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what the show has been. It's been a hall of mirrors.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, lady from Shanghai with Orson Welles, you know,

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Speaker 1: both of you know, we had bonded about that too,

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Speaker 1: and you know this kind of um, the embracing the

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Speaker 1: surreality of it, and what I came to really embrace

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Speaker 1: about it is I think one of Rick's maintenance in

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Speaker 1: life is that when the lines get blurred between what's

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Speaker 1: real and what's unreal, interesting things happen and go a

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Speaker 1: little bit deeper what would be real and what would

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Speaker 1: be unreal. Well, for instance, anything that resembles a rule

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Speaker 1: or a deadline or a budget or any of those things,

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Speaker 1: I think Rick just doesn't believe them, you know, willfully, UM.

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Speaker 1: And I think that stems from his earliest days. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if it stems from his childhood, I think in some ways,

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Speaker 1: but certainly in college. You know, Rick being a rule

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Speaker 1: breaker UM has rewarded him again and again. So there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of positive feedback that this idea of

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Speaker 1: doing exactly what you want and not caring about what's

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Speaker 1: popular or not caring about what people say you can

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Speaker 1: do or what you're supposed to do. Um is actually

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Speaker 1: really for old ground. So I think that's that's part

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Speaker 1: of it. It's just a wilful disregard for any Whenever

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Speaker 1: anybody says, well this is supposed to happen like this,

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Speaker 1: you know, you might as well be speaking foreign language

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Speaker 1: to Rick. Okay, but let's go back to the point.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to make a movie about the studio. You

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Speaker 1: were more interested in Rick, So then you got involved.

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Speaker 1: How did they find you? Um? Well, I think the

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Speaker 1: people a showtime and Rick knew my work right. I've

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Speaker 1: been a working documentary and for twenty five years, I've

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Speaker 1: made a ton of music films. I made lots of

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Speaker 1: non music films. Um. And as I said, Rick was

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Speaker 1: a big fan of this design show I'd done. That

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Speaker 1: was another thing they talked about, and so I think

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Speaker 1: they all said, well, if we can get somebody to

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Speaker 1: do this would be Morgan. So I honestly think it

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Speaker 1: was me coming on board and having a series of

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Speaker 1: conversations with Rick that kind of swung the show from

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Speaker 1: what they thought it was going to be into what

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Speaker 1: it is. I don't have a good way of describing

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Speaker 1: what it is, because it's a rather indescribable show. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a very idiosyndradic show. It's been, um in

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Speaker 1: many ways, some of the most rewarding stuff I've done

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Speaker 1: and some of the most challenging stuff I've done. It's

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Speaker 1: forced me way out of my comfort zone. Give us

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Speaker 1: an example. Um okay, Well, Rick said at the beginning, UM,

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to do an interview with you on camera. Um.

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Speaker 1: So what I ended up doing? Why do you think that? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's just that's normal. That's what people do. You know.

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Speaker 1: I don't like talking heads. I'm never going to do it.

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Speaker 1: You know, typically if you do a documentary with the subject.

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Speaker 1: He said, Oh, can I'll sit down do interviews with you?

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Speaker 1: Can I get a shot of you walking, you know,

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Speaker 1: across your house? Can I do this? I could never

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Speaker 1: ask to do anything like that. So what I ended

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Speaker 1: up with was said, well, let me just do audio conversations.

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Speaker 1: I'd even call them interviews, just conversations. So Rick um

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Speaker 1: Off is uh at his house in Hawaii, and so

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Speaker 1: part of my job was taking several trips to Hawaii

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Speaker 1: where I'd go over and we'd spend the day having conversations,

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Speaker 1: and that conversation we could talk about the Ramons for

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Speaker 1: an hour, you know, we could talk about Um, Tom

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Speaker 1: Petty for an hour. We could talk about anything. And

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Speaker 1: I went in with no agenda. You know, this is

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Speaker 1: not me trying to interview Rick. This is just talking

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Speaker 1: about what what's interesting, and you're recording it and I'm

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Speaker 1: recording it. So I'm by myself. First of all, I'm

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Speaker 1: forced to be my own audio engineer, which scares the

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Speaker 1: Jesus out, I mean, especially in front of Rick being

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Speaker 1: who he is. UM And plus you know, just dealing

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Speaker 1: with the nature of hawaiis I'm trying to record good audio.

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Speaker 1: And we ended up doing more than twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: of audio interviews and that really became kind of this

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Speaker 1: text that flows throughout the series. And then I had

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Speaker 1: to figure out how am I going to actually illustrate

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Speaker 1: this cinematically, and it forced me into a lot of

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Speaker 1: very create of solutions. Um And I know you've only

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Speaker 1: seen half the series. It gets even weirder. Okay, from

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Speaker 1: the beginning, was it going to be four episodes, It

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Speaker 1: was gonna be something like that. It was a mini series,

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Speaker 1: you know, could have been Yeah, but I think four

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Speaker 1: was always kind of the goal UM, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: know what it was going to be UM. And part

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Speaker 1: of it is I mean, originally it was going to

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Speaker 1: take about a year. It's been about a year and

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Speaker 1: a half. UM. And there's a kind of an unpredictability

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Speaker 1: also to to what's happening in the studio. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of what you see in the in this series

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Speaker 1: is just me getting call from Rick saying such and

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Speaker 1: such as coming in the studio tomorrow, you should show up,

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Speaker 1: and we show up, And sometimes I have no idea

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Speaker 1: who they are and or how they're going to fit

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Speaker 1: into it. So I feel like in many ways, I

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Speaker 1: was given this incredibly diverse but random um set of

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Speaker 1: ingredients and then I was told to make the best

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Speaker 1: meal I'd ever cooked. So it was it took just

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Speaker 1: a lot of um outside the box thinking to kind

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Speaker 1: of stitch together things that don't normally get stitched together.

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Speaker 1: What do you think Rick wanted out of it? UM?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I have a very hard

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Speaker 1: time answering anything for Rick UM other than I know

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Speaker 1: he's definitely been more interested in, you know, speaking publicly

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Speaker 1: a little bit you know, he has his podcast now,

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Speaker 1: and and he's been somebody who's been kind of notoriously

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Speaker 1: um off the grid in anyways. Um. And the fact

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Speaker 1: of the matter is Rick has done and learned a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I think part of him understands that there's some

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Speaker 1: wisdom that could be shared. And I think one takeaway

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Speaker 1: he and I had when we're having these initial conversations

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Speaker 1: was if you could come away from the show knowing

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be produced by Rick, that's a win.

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Speaker 1: And so in many ways, it's not trying to tell

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Speaker 1: his story or the story of the studio per se,

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Speaker 1: though it's all in there, but um, but to try

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Speaker 1: and give the experience of what it would be like

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Speaker 1: to come in and work with Rick and what you'll

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Speaker 1: glean from that as an artist or even more perfectly,

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Speaker 1: as any kind of creative person or any person you know,

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Speaker 1: because the rules he's talking about that I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: are the universal ones that apply to you, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a filmmaker or a writer, or or a

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Speaker 1: musician or anything else. Um, that's what excites me. So.

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Speaker 1: UM that was the goal. But it was no easy goal. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you watch or the half that I've watched you get

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Speaker 1: the impression that Rick is trying to make the most

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Speaker 1: successful record in later in the series or just your discussion.

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Speaker 1: Not everything he does is successful. Now, you know, we

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Speaker 1: had this tenure with Columbia Records, which really wasn't that successful.

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Speaker 1: But does that factor into his thinking I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: financially successful. Yeah, I know. I don't think finance figures

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Speaker 1: in in any way I've ever been able to detect um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wish I could be that pure in

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Speaker 1: my decision making. I try. I think most of us

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Speaker 1: wish we could be that pure um. But from what

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Speaker 1: I could tell, Rick really really doesn't care. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: if you watch the film, it begins with people from

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Speaker 1: the hip hop world. I must admit some of them

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Speaker 1: I didn't know. Okay, how about yourself? Did you know them? No?

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Speaker 1: I mean I knew some. You know, I knew Tyler

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Speaker 1: Um creator who's in it. But you know, people like drama.

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Speaker 1: So part of what Rick wanted to show, which is

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Speaker 1: very real, is that somebody like drama. This um, young

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Speaker 1: hip hop artist Rick discovered on SoundCloud UM when he

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Speaker 1: only had three listens. Somehow, Rick became the three first

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Speaker 1: listen and you know, tweeted that he was listening to

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Speaker 1: drama and next thing you know, he's producing drama. So

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Speaker 1: Rick is still actively interested in finding new things he

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Speaker 1: hasn't heard before. So there are a lot of people

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Speaker 1: throughout the show who are people I didn't know, people

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Speaker 1: who nobody knows, or people who are barely known that

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Speaker 1: Rick is is trying to mentor I guess, Okay, we

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Speaker 1: live in an era where it's conventionally believed that hip

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Speaker 1: hop dominates. I noticed through the first episode, Uh, it

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Speaker 1: was mostly African Americans talking. Was that a conscious choice

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Speaker 1: to be hip? No? No? And in fact, I think

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Speaker 1: by the end of the series, the balances is much wider.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the artist Rick's work

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Speaker 1: with two it's well, I mean, I know from my

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Speaker 1: association with Metallica, you know that he's worked with them,

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Speaker 1: and then certainly in the first two episodes, I didn't

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Speaker 1: see Metallica. There was a mention of Slayer at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't a mention of the Black Crows, which was

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Speaker 1: on his label. He was not the producer. Does that

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Speaker 1: stuff come up? Um a little bit, But again, it's

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Speaker 1: not the Rick Reuben story. You know it's and Rick

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Speaker 1: was very clear about that that, you know, this is

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Speaker 1: not going to be just the a diazy of Rick Ruben.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, I'm more interested in doing the other version

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Speaker 1: than the Wikipedia version. You know, I see so many

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Speaker 1: music documentaries that feel like I'm watching a version of Wikipedia,

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Speaker 1: you know, or behind the music or behind me. They

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Speaker 1: did this, and then they did that, and they worked

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Speaker 1: with this person, they did this tour, and then this happened,

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Speaker 1: and they have to check every box. I find that

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Speaker 1: not good storytelling. Okay, you're making the movie, and are

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Speaker 1: you ever saying at certain points, because you're filming a lot, okay,

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Speaker 1: now I have it, Now it's coming together, or converse

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Speaker 1: with you saying hey, I need something. It's not like

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Speaker 1: it's just like Rick of the movie. I can't tell

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Speaker 1: you what it is, but I know what I'll get there. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm ever gonna feel like I've

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Speaker 1: gotten there. You know. I rarely feel that way, even

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Speaker 1: about films of mine that have done very well. You know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like, um, my whole career has been iterative.

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Speaker 1: I'm a huge believer in that. And maybe it's because

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Speaker 1: you know, I started my career in journalism, and I

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Speaker 1: came out of um deadline journalism, which I love because

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Speaker 1: it's about doing what you can do and then the

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Speaker 1: next day you do it again. And something about that

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Speaker 1: iterative process lets you learn faster. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: filmmakers that do one film for seven years at a time.

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Speaker 1: I can't work that way, and I feel just by

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Speaker 1: doing things more, I get better at it. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know there's certainly uh, what's his name? The documentary

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Speaker 1: the guy do the Eagles nick whatever? The guy who

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe his name is Alex. He seems to

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Speaker 1: make a million. He's always work. He actually not that

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Speaker 1: you know when you're the three. But is he actually

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Speaker 1: hands on it all these movies? Um, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but I know he's somewhat hands on and all those movies.

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Speaker 1: And I think anything he puts his name on as

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Speaker 1: director because he also produces things he doesn't direct, and

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Speaker 1: I think, actually, I'm trying to remember did the Eagles doctor?

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Speaker 1: Did he just produce it? I'm not sure if he

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Speaker 1: actually directed it because there was a woman who directed it.

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Speaker 1: I could be wrong. It was great, yeah, So and

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean, Alex, I've known Alex for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and he's somebody who's you know, had the

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Speaker 1: kind of career that's very enviable. I mean, it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: And we could talk about documentaries if you want, because

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Speaker 1: I've been doing it for a long time and it's

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Speaker 1: changed tremendously. What documentary is today is let's let's get

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Speaker 1: completely different. Let's go let's let's go back to Rick

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Speaker 1: and make sure that we don't leave certain stones unturned. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a plethora of product out now, and there will

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Speaker 1: be a marketing campaign, usually with a fewer dollars than

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Speaker 1: there is in a theatrical world. Even though I believe

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Speaker 1: this stuff should list beyond the flat screen. What do

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Speaker 1: you anticipate in what would be satisfying or unsatisfying in

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Speaker 1: terms of response? UM? I don't want to sound um disingenuous,

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Speaker 1: but I don't really care. Let's say, hypothetically was the

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Speaker 1: theatrical film? Do you care? Then? UM? I would, But

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Speaker 1: to me, I think of them differently. UM. I feel

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Speaker 1: like this Rick experience has been a process of experimentation

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Speaker 1: and trying things, and it's you're learning on their dollar well,

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Speaker 1: but it's also idiosyncratic, and I think there are people

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Speaker 1: who are going to think it's awesome and people who

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Speaker 1: are going to think it's terrible. I'm okay with that,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I feel like we had the support

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Speaker 1: from Showtime, and I feel like it was kind of

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Speaker 1: the mission statement going in that this is going to

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Speaker 1: get weird, and um, I feel like doing something for television,

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Speaker 1: it gets judged differently than if I put into a

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Speaker 1: theater and want people to pay money on a date

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Speaker 1: night to go and sit there and watch it. So

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Speaker 1: I think about them differently, um, which is part of

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Speaker 1: why I thought of it as a mini series. And

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Speaker 1: it kind of has a um, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: you describe it, kind of a a drifting, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of we referred to it as the Gossamer Construction.

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Speaker 1: You know. It has this kind of, um, lightly connected

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Speaker 1: kind of tangent of ideas. I mean, normally I'm a

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Speaker 1: big story and character person. This was a challenge of

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Speaker 1: trying to kind of tell a story with a narrative

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Speaker 1: of ideas and um. And I'm really happy with what

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Speaker 1: we did. But it's I know, it's not the most

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Speaker 1: mainstrength thing I've done, and that's cool, you know. I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to do things that certain people will say that's

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing, and other people say I hate it.

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Speaker 1: I may have done films like that and that's great.

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Speaker 1: I've done films that are kind of broad cloud crowd

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Speaker 1: pleasers too. And then to what degree was Rick steering

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Speaker 1: to the final destination or making comments on the edit?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I had final edit. But you know, of

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Speaker 1: course everybody wants Rick to be happy and we want

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Speaker 1: to talk about it. But honestly, the discussions were not

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Speaker 1: you know, we it was much more collaborative in that

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Speaker 1: it's this kind of debate about what it is. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think in a way, I mean it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: no stretch to say that, um, Rick was trying to

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Speaker 1: produce me that. Um absolutely, the conversations I had with Rick,

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Speaker 1: with the kinds of conversations, the habit is our this

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Speaker 1: And even though I would protest and say making a

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Speaker 1: film is not making a record, part of me knows

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Speaker 1: that making a film is making a record, and that

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Speaker 1: I when Rick says, well, I know, you say that's

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Speaker 1: the best way, but how do you know, How do

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Speaker 1: you really know what happens if you don't do that?

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Speaker 1: And um, you know, and that can be frustrating and

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Speaker 1: it was. But it can also lead you to places

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Speaker 1: you would never go to on your own, which it did.

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Speaker 1: Ok Um, I learned to be much freer making this.

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Speaker 1: I just feel much fear as a filmmaker, you know,

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Speaker 1: much less constrained about um rules. And it's Rick happy

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Speaker 1: with the final product. I think. So, So, how did

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Speaker 1: how did step Goden end up being in the film?

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Speaker 1: Seth and Ricker good friends? Really? Yeah? How did how

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Speaker 1: did that come together? I mean Rick has um a

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Speaker 1: collection of interesting friends and people. I mean there are

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Speaker 1: other people. He's not in the first two episodes, but

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Speaker 1: Michael Lewis uh appears in one of our episodes in

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Speaker 1: a conversation. Um, he does a podcast in Malcolm clab Well, like,

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Speaker 1: I think he's interested in Well is he? You know? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the conflict in the movie in that on some

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Speaker 1: level you see this guru who barely speaks, but then

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Speaker 1: you show what was happening in the dorm room and

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Speaker 1: you have actual footage of him hyping the Beastie Boys

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Speaker 1: and he said, this is a pretty aggressive guy who

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Speaker 1: knew where he wanted to go. Absolutely. Um, So do

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Speaker 1: you think that still applies today? No? I think Rick's

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Speaker 1: journey is one of um getting away from the idea

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Speaker 1: that you know, I mean, in fact, he says it

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Speaker 1: and later a later episode that I mean. This is

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Speaker 1: the example he gives, which you will appreciate. Um. In

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Speaker 1: the movie Hall Hale Rock and Roll, as Rick says,

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Speaker 1: the film that Keith Richard's made about Chuck Berry I

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Speaker 1: as a documentary would differ the Chuck that UH was

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Speaker 1: not made by uh by Keith Richards. But um, I'm

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Speaker 1: blanking on the director it was, I'm blanking. We can

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Speaker 1: look it up on he did. He's made to Hella Marin,

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Speaker 1: he did coal Miner's daughter. Um, it'll come to you

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Speaker 1: in anyway. Um so anyway, Um so Rix talks about

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Speaker 1: Hell Hell Rock and Roll and that when he saw

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Speaker 1: that film when it came out. There's a scene where

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Speaker 1: Keith is constantly trying to break Chuck into getting his

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Speaker 1: act together, tuning his guitar, actually rehearsing, and like getting

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Speaker 1: putting him on a pedestal so he'll sound as good

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Speaker 1: as he can sound. And Chuck resists this and sabotages

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Speaker 1: it again and again. And Rick said, in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: when I watched this film, I thought Keith is doing

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Speaker 1: the best he can to help this artist, and Chuck

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Speaker 1: just won't listen to him. And now I'm on chuck side.

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Speaker 1: As Chuck says, if I want to play guitar, the

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Speaker 1: sattit tune, that how Chuck Berry plays it, and you

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Speaker 1: know what, there's wisdom in that too. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: think something Rick talks a lot about is this idea

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Speaker 1: of letting go of your beliefs and admitting that you

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Speaker 1: don't know. He also has luxury based on his past success.

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Speaker 1: As you said earlier, a lot of us, you know,

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Speaker 1: are not that rich because that many accolades. While you're

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Speaker 1: making this, I want to tell you one of this

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Speaker 1: story because this echoes another story that's not in the film.

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Speaker 1: But I heard that We talked to Rivers Cuomo from Weezer,

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Speaker 1: and Rivers tells this story that there was a cover song, uh,

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Speaker 1: like a Tony Braxton cover song that Rivers wanted to

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Speaker 1: do and they recorded it and the rest and the guy,

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Speaker 1: the rest of the guys and Weezer were like, this

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Speaker 1: is not good. We should not do this, and Rick

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Speaker 1: had been supportive of it, and so Rivers was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to strategize about how we're going to get

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Speaker 1: on the album, and how I'm going to convince the

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Speaker 1: guys in the band. And he goes into talk to

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Speaker 1: Rick and says, guy, you know, Rick, nobody else in

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Speaker 1: the band wants to use this song, must put it

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Speaker 1: on the album. Um you know what are we gonna

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Speaker 1: do about it? And Rick pauses and says, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: the right And it just took Rivers back right onto

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Speaker 1: his back. Heel didn't be like, oh, I never thought

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Speaker 1: you would have said that. And I think that is

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Speaker 1: part of what Rick has learned, is to understand that

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Speaker 1: maybe other people are right. Okay, while you're making this

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Speaker 1: Rick mini series, are you also working on other projects simultaneously? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And I should say because it's very much worth saying that. Um,

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Speaker 1: I have a partner on the Shangri Law this Rick

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Speaker 1: Reuben series, Jeff Malmberg, who directed the series with me,

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Speaker 1: So we each did two episodes, but he was my

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Speaker 1: editor and won't you be my neighbor the Mr. Rogers

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Speaker 1: film and he's a great filmmaker in his own right.

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Speaker 1: So Jeff and I have been how do you split

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Speaker 1: up the duties? How does he do two episodes and

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Speaker 1: you Dutch episodes? I mean realistically, we both just directed

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Speaker 1: whenever we could. We just covered to shoots and then

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Speaker 1: we kind of divated all up at the end. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to your earlier comment how documentary has

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Speaker 1: changed over the years. Yeah, documentary. Um, it's been twenty

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Speaker 1: six years since I started my first documentary. And back

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Speaker 1: then there was nothing cool whatsoever about documentaries. I mean

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Speaker 1: it was PBS, maybe something on HBO, but I mean

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Speaker 1: there was Capturing the Freedman's I mean that was two

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Speaker 1: thousand four we started. So, Um, Michael Moore was about

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Speaker 1: the only very successful but even then, not in nineteen well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he done. Um rogery was so. I actually Roger

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Speaker 1: Me came out, Um in the fall of nine. I

408
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Speaker 1: was working as a journalist in San Francisco. It opened

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Speaker 1: up in two theaters, one in New York, one in

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Speaker 1: l A. And I convinced my roommate to drive with

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Speaker 1: me to l A for the day to see a

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Speaker 1: matinee of Roger Me and drive home to San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: which we did. Um. So even then, and I had

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Speaker 1: a real fascination with documentary, and there were a number

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Speaker 1: of documentaries along the way that really showed me what

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Speaker 1: I could do well besides Roger and what were they?

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Speaker 1: I mean, Roger me Um, Hearts and Minds, Sherman's March, Um,

418
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Speaker 1: when we were Kings, Um Brothers Keeper. You know some

419
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Speaker 1: of those films that were just so influential and I

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Speaker 1: loved so much. It's so good, so good, uh, And

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Speaker 1: I have to say for Fake That or in Wales

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Speaker 1: film there was hugely influential on me. Occasionally really interesting

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Speaker 1: docs getting made, but they were hard, hard to see

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Speaker 1: and and there have been a number of waves where

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Speaker 1: ducks made a little bit of progress. So in the

426
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: early two thousand's there was a period where Capturing the

427
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: Freedman's and spell Bound and a few films like that,

428
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: um Man im Wire came out, and UM, more ducks

429
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: were getting made and there was more money going into it,

430
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: and then everybody lost money and all kind of went

431
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: away for a while, and then this last really kind

432
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: of six years. UM, there's been an explosion in documentary UM,

433
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: and I think part of that is the streaming services.

434
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people talked about places like

435
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: net Netflix being um kind of the end of the

436
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: theatrical documentary, and I think it's actually had the opposite

437
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: effect in that for years people told me I love documentary,

438
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: I just don't know where to find them. And once

439
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: you put documentary on even platform with comedy and drama

440
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: and everything else, lots of people choose documentary. So I

441
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: think it just grew the audience for nonfiction storytelling. And

442
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, last year was one of the greatest years

443
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: for theatrical documentary ever. Um. So I think it's changing

444
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: in that way. And just seeing people, I mean, having

445
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: worked in l A for all this time and having

446
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: worked with so many people out of film school, there

447
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: was always this attitude of documentary is like a stepping

448
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: stone to real movies. And needless to say, I've always

449
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: resented that attitude. Um, But more and more and more

450
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: I'm finding young people who I just want to make

451
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: documentaries for their life. Um. It's great. Okay, Let's go

452
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: back to the beginning. You grew up where Santa Barbara, California.

453
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: Santa Barbara. Your parents did what for a living? Um?

454
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: My dad um was an antiquarium book dealer so um

455
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: and a huge, huge rock and roll fan. Huge. How

456
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: old is your father? Um, seventy four? Really so young

457
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: by today's since very young you know, having me getting

458
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: married and having me was a good way to not

459
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: go to Vietnam. But you know, huge Dylan fan huge

460
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: you know Van Morrison and but also British Invasion and

461
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: everything else. Um. So by the time I was getting

462
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: into punk rock, my dad had all those records. He

463
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: had every Patti Smith and um Sex pistols. You know,

464
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: just go to my dad's record collection to pull that

465
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: stuff out. Did he also play all that stuff in

466
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: the house and on the cars to exposed to it.

467
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: Some I think my dad's real music taste tended to

468
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: be more literary, So people like Patti Smith, Leonard Cohen,

469
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, Fan Warrison, those were his kind of go

470
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: to people. Um who were great? Who are some of

471
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: my very favorites too? Um and uh and my dad

472
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: my parents went to the Last Waltz and on that well,

473
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: my they were huge fans of the band and they

474
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: knew I don't know if they knew Dylan was going

475
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: to be performing or whatever, but um, I don't even know.

476
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: But they had an extra one and they talked about

477
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: bringing me was nine at the time. Um, they did

478
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: not bring me, um, but they went and they brought

479
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: my aunt and I guess they'd served the whole Thanksgiving

480
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 1: dinner beforehand, and then they cleared the tables or whatever may.

481
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: They didn't cleared the devils. Anyway, they had the concert

482
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: and um, to this day, I give my dad shit

483
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: about not taking me. I would have been the coolest

484
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: kid ever if I had gone to the last Waltz.

485
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: But but it was that type of upbringing where music

486
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: and literature and film were hugely important. And uh, you're

487
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: how many kids in the family. I have a sister

488
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: three years younger, and she's a geneticist in Oxford, England,

489
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: so she went the other way. Wow. And the middle class,

490
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: upper middle class? What kind of upbringing, upper middle class?

491
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: And also how do you end up going to penn Um.

492
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: It's interesting as a kid from California, did you got

493
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: a public school, private school, went to private school? Actually

494
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: went to boarding school? Uh in o Hi school called

495
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: Thatchure And just going back he seemed like the thing

496
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: to do. And just do you want to get away

497
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: from home? And and and I actually fell in love

498
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: with the kind of history of the East Coast. I

499
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: majored in Colonial American history of all things. So but

500
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: I still find it fascinating because they were basically making

501
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: up a civilization from scratch at the time, you know,

502
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: by their own rules, and it was a unique situation

503
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: that way. And I still find Colonial America very fascinating. UM.

504
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: And I was kind of running away from from California

505
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: and I um and my plan was to be a journalist,

506
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: which I ended up doing for a time. So the

507
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: experience in college was a good experience. It was great. Yeah,

508
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: I love it. But I was a huge devotee of

509
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: new journalism. So you know that new journalism menthodology that

510
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: Tom Wolfe edited in the early seventies with tweets and uh,

511
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: John Didion and or Mailer and everybody else. Um. I

512
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: mean that was like my Bible, you know. And plus

513
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: people like Hunter Thompson UM, who ended up who was

514
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: family friends of ours. So my dad also had a

515
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: small addition press. He was publishing authors he knew and liked, UM,

516
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: so he published um Hunter Thompson book. Um. They were

517
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: good friends with Charles Wakowski who stayed at our house,

518
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, who is a very bohemian I guess you

519
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: would say, kind of upbringing UM. So between the punk

520
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: rock and the Charles Wakowski. It was not your conventional So, okay,

521
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: you're at PEN. You go into Pen knowing you want

522
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: to be a journalist. I had a pretty good idea.

523
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: I mean, this is also in the late eighties, and

524
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: you remember, you know, there was like a new magazine

525
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: opening every week. There was a new magazine. You know,

526
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: in the news stands are bursting with amazing long form writing.

527
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: And that was just the thing and the idea that

528
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: it's It's funny because all the things the new journalism preached,

529
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: which was really using techniques of fiction writing to nonfiction storytelling,

530
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: is exactly what I'm doing now. It's exactly the same thing,

531
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: taking techniques of um, you know, scripted storytelling and putting

532
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: into into nonfiction stories. So and I still think of

533
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: myself as a journalist. It's just documentaries, like three D journalism. Okay,

534
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: so you graduate from Pen. What's your first job the

535
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Nation magazine and you're doing what are you actually writing?

536
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: Started as an intern, then became a fact checker. Then

537
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: I worked as on the history of the Nation magazine.

538
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: So I worked on a book was a long term project,

539
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: and then I moved to San Francisco and started working

540
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: at a wire service called Pacific News Service, and then

541
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: went to work for Pacific A Radio. Flo How do

542
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: you go from the new service to Pacific Radio? I

543
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: mean it was a small The kind of left wing

544
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: journalism world of UM San Francisco in the early nineties

545
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: was very small, and everybody knew everybody else. The problem

546
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: I had was, as a young person, all of the

547
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: jobs in media, particularly in the Bay Area, but this

548
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 1: is true throughout most of journalism. We're taken up by

549
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: baby boomers who are not going anywhere soon. You know that.

550
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: Basically my bosses that was the job I wanted, and

551
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: they were twenty years away from retirement. And that was

552
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: true everywhere. So part of me leaving that world was

553
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 1: feeling like I had to make my own opportunity and

554
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: I had to come back to l A to do it. Okay,

555
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: you switch from news to radio? You were doing what

556
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: at radio? I ran? I was still writing freelance UM,

557
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: but there was a program called Youth Radio UM where

558
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: we would train kids, inner city kids to be radio

559
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: engineers and reporters, and we had a weekly show in Berkeley,

560
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: but we also ran stories on MPR and it was

561
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: kind of like a just a cool program to get

562
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: young people, you know, trained up into media. Okay, so

563
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: you ultimately quit that to come back to l A

564
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: to do what to make my first film? Okay, so

565
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: you're in San Francisco. How long does it take for

566
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: you to say I'm gonna quit? Two weeks? Let me?

567
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean you just suddenly said I gotta go when

568
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: you went, well, I've been thinking about it for a

569
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: long time. I think basically the truth is I've been

570
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: in denial that I wanted to be a filmmaker forever.

571
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: I thought that journalism was like a real adult career

572
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: and filmmaking was like what I did on weekends, you know,

573
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: because it was too much fun, you know, to dilettante

574
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: is for me to actually want to be a filmmaker. Um.

575
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: And then I kind of had this epiphany that all

576
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: the years of doing political journalism, you know, from the

577
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: nation on that basically I was in denial about what

578
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: I actually cared about. What I spent all of my

579
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: week nights and weekends on was culture. I was playing

580
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: in bands, I was going to art museums, I was

581
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: reading books, and I was devouring movies. And I said, well,

582
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: why don't I actually spend my days doing the thing

583
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: I spend all my extracurricular hours doing. And that is

584
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: pretty much when I was twenty five, I made that decision.

585
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: I haven't looked back. All I've done since this culture. Okay,

586
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: will you make movies? Before you left San Francisco, I

587
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: was flirting with it, um and again documentary Like there

588
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: was no clear path to have a career as a

589
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: documentary and you saw yourself as a documentarian. So what

590
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: happened is I started my first film not a little

591
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: slower you moved. Yeah, so I go down there. I

592
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: think it's going to take the summer for me to

593
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: make a film. And my first film ended up being

594
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: called Shotgun Freeway Drives through Lost l A. So it's

595
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: this kind of Mondo l a history documentary which you

596
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: can find out there. Okay, but the first question is

597
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: the average person would say, you're moving to l A

598
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: and you're making a movie on what money? So this

599
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: was in the era of get a bunch of credit

600
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: cards and you know, rack up all the debt. This

601
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 1: is what you know Robert Rodriguez. And there was a book, um,

602
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: you know what was it called by John Pearson? Uh?

603
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: What was it called? Spike, Dikes, Mike and whatever, which

604
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: was kind of like the bible for how to go

605
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: out and just do your own thing. And you know,

606
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: so we were all this is the early nineties, that

607
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: kind of heyday of early independent film where everybody felt

608
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, Soderberg's and all these people are just kind

609
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: of jumping out there and doing it. So I thought, well,

610
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: I can do that. Um at the end of the day,

611
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: we ended up making the film for thirty five thousand dollars,

612
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: all on credit cards. Um well, we ended up getting

613
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: one investor who put in, but still so we But

614
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: the the story is that we basically made it for

615
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: no money. You know, and your first film, everybody will

616
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: work for you one time for free, and you know

617
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: they won't do it for your second film. But um,

618
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, it's also being kind of young

619
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: in a city like this with all this opportunity and

620
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: all these people that want to become cinematographers and editors

621
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: who are all stuck at as assistant editors and you

622
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: know everything else. That a friend of mine was a

623
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: post production supervisor on the TV show Northern Exposure, and

624
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: they had some of the first avid's that had ever

625
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: been used in production. And he said, if you for those,

626
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: people don't know if those are computer editing, nonlinear editing

627
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: editing on computers, which is brand brand new at the time, um,

628
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: and incredibly expensive and inaccessible. So he said, if you

629
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: come in from eleven PM to eight am, you can

630
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: use the machines. So that's how I edited the films.

631
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: We stayed up all night, um for like a year. Okay,

632
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: let's be clear. You hadn't made a movie previously right now,

633
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: so you must have made a lot of mistakes along

634
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: the way. Yeah. I made a ton of mistakes. And

635
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: I always say my first film was my film school. Um.

636
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: But two weeks into making it, I wrote a letter

637
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: to my parents and I said, this is what I'm

638
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: going to do for the rest of my life. Like

639
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: it was so clear when I started it that everything,

640
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: all my skill sets, they all come together perfectly in

641
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: this job. And it's really all I've done since. And

642
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: you said, we, who was we? I had a co

643
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: director on my first film, here a Palenberg. Um he

644
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: still makes films and um as an old old friend

645
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: of mine. Okay, so you finished the film you shot

646
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: at one on sixteen on video. It was a combination

647
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: of everything. I mean, it was mainly videotape, but we

648
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: shot sixteen kind of inserts and super eight and it

649
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: was kind of a mondo collage of what history means

650
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: in l A. And we got people like James Elroy

651
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: and John Didion to be in it, and Mike Davis

652
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: and all kinds of other people, and it was right.

653
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: I mean really, the reason for me doing it was

654
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: as a kid from South California going to college back east,

655
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 1: people laughed at me when I talked about their being

656
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: history or culture in Los Angeles, and I had more

657
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: than a little chip on my shoulder about it. Um

658
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 1: So I ended up making this film to basically say

659
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: fuck you to all these people that l A History

660
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 1: is not an oxymoron, and that there's so much culture

661
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 1: here and so much history here. It just doesn't look

662
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: like what you're using used to seeing urban history look like.

663
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's just a different shape. Okay, So

664
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: are at the time were you happy with the finished product? Yeah?

665
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: Very happy? And so then what happened? You did the

666
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: film festival, supermarried it south By, We got a theatrical release,

667
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: We sold it to the Sundance Channel, and we made money.

668
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 1: How's that? How do you remember? Like we made like okay,

669
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: so this is happening. Now you're thinking about the second movie.

670
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: So I then was offered was so the other thing

671
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: I didn't tell you, And this may be a locals

672
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: only thing, but I had a day job to make

673
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: money throughout this period producing Huell Houser's TV show how

674
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: did you get that? Gig um? Because he was doing

675
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: this l A History show. He with those of you

676
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: don't know, was this kind of eccentric southern quasi bumpkin

677
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: character who would go around California and Los Angeles doing California,

678
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: California's gold Fuel House. And so he was doing his

679
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: own l A History California history thing, and people I

680
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: knew somebody who worked at KCT here, the PBS station,

681
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: They said you should meet him, and I met him

682
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: and he was like, oh, you're into this stuff, come

683
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: work for me. So I ended up working for him

684
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: to make money. Why I finished my first film, and

685
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: then right when I finished my film, I got offered

686
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: a job producing any biography And I did that for

687
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: three years and I learned so much more, not just

688
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: about filmmaking, but about how to run a production company.

689
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: UM had actually work with employees and how to deal

690
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: with all that stuff. And during that time I got

691
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: to do I did to Brian Wilson two hour Any biography.

692
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: I did a brill building documentary and if you remember that,

693
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: UM for Any and Bert Backrack Libran Stoller like I

694
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: pushed them into music in a way that they weren't

695
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: doing before. And then kind of my my coup was

696
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: that UM. I was a huge fan of Peter Gonnis,

697
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: you know the music and Peter I basically run him

698
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: a fan letter and said, I would love to do

699
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: a documentary with you, do you have any interest? And

700
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: he had done a book called Sweet Soul Music that

701
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: I really loved and I was thinking about trying to

702
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: do and he said, there are only two subjects I

703
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: want to make a film about, Doc Pomas and Sam Phillips.

704
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: And I thought about it and I said, well, I'm

705
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: gonna have a much easier chance making the Sam Phillips

706
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: documentary than the Doc Pomus documentary right now. And Peter

707
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: and I went about pitching it and we ended up

708
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: making a two hour Sam Phillips documentary. It was fantastic,

709
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, and it was an incredible experience for me

710
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: because you know, Peter and I went to Memphis for

711
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: three months. I had all this time again like I

712
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: was being produced by Sam Phillips. I got the experience.

713
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: I was feeling like I was one of the last

714
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: artists that Sam Phillips ever produced, because I got the

715
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: full on, you know, fire breathing, fog horn, leg horn,

716
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: Sam Phillips treatment. Um, And it was amazing and basically, UM.

717
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: There were a couple of big takeaways from that. One was,

718
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: UM that Peter Gorini, who was really lea somebody, had

719
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: taught me so much about what I do and is

720
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: one of the greatest music writers of all time. UM.

721
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: He said something me early on that I've thought about

722
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: so many times, which is, the three least interesting things

723
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: about rock and roll are sex, drugs, and getting screwed

724
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 1: over by your record label. Because everybody tells the same stories.

725
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: And I've thought about that so often. I mean, that

726
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: kind of is behind the music basically. So once you

727
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: take all that away, what's the differentiator between all these stories?

728
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: That's what I'm interested in. UM. But the other thing

729
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: was that Sam Phillips himself was such a believer in

730
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: his own vision you know, bringing in African American artists

731
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: to record in Memphis, you know, early on, I mean

732
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: like Turner and BB King and Hallam Wolf and on

733
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: and on and on, to the point where he was

734
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: completely ostracized by his peers and the rest of white

735
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: society and Memphis, and to the point where he had

736
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: nervous breakdowns, was given shock therapy, and he never wavered

737
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: in his belief in this music. And I came away

738
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: from finishing that film and said, I have to work

739
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: for myself. I can't ever work for anybody else, and

740
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: I haven't since. So I basically started my own production

741
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: company then Tremlow Productions, and haven't looked back. So that

742
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: was what year two thousand? So what was the first project?

743
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: I mean, in the beginning, I was just scrambling to

744
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: make money doing things um and I did projects for

745
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: museums and UM. I think my first real documentary I

746
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: made was Muddy Waters Film, And that was because Robert Gordon,

747
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: the Memphis music writer who was also kind of a

748
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: disciple of Peter Groundings. Peter had introduced us and we

749
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: become friends, and Robert was finishing his book on Muddy

750
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: and said, nobody's ever done a proper Muddy Waters documentary.

751
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: Let's do it. So we jumped in and we did

752
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: it again, not knowing how we were going to pay

753
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: for all of it, and we ended up getting you

754
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: some money out of Channel four in England and it's

755
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: kind of stitching together money from home video back when

756
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: you could do that and um and we made it

757
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: and had such a good experience we ended up selling

758
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: it to American Masters here for PBS and UM and

759
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: that really kind of got the ball rolling for me

760
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: as a production company. I next it at Hank Williams

761
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: American Masters and what I found, I mean, I am

762
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: a music fanatic. It's no surprise, but I have many interests.

763
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: But part of the reason I did so many music

764
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: films was I could get them funded. You know that

765
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: the difference with the music film is that there's a

766
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: built an audience that cares about this music in most cases,

767
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: um and in many cases there's a publisher, label or

768
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: an artist or somebody who cares about a film getting made,

769
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: as opposed to making a film about his subject where

770
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: there's zero awareness and zero built in audience. UM. And

771
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: it just felt both like I could feed my music obsession,

772
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: but I could also kind of get no as the

773
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: music guy, which I did to the point where I

774
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: started getting calls from people all the time saying, Oh,

775
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: we have this music project. Are you interested? Are you interested? Um?

776
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: Which was great as an impended documentary filmmaker at the

777
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: time when there weren't a lot of ways to get

778
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: films made that you know, I had my niche Okay,

779
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: so Buddy Waters, where are you from there? So? Um,

780
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: Hank Williams. Then I made a film called The Cool

781
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: School about the l a art scene in the fifties

782
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: and sixties is not easy to sell, like a music film. Um.

783
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: Like a lot of these things, they're just things that

784
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: I can't get out of my head. Um. So The

785
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: Cool School was because I went to the Getty to

786
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: see a guy named Walter Hopps who was a legendary

787
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 1: curator who had started this gallery called the Ferris Gallery,

788
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: essentially the first big modern art gallery in Los Angeles,

789
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: and he gave a talk at the Getty. This is

790
00:44:54,440 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: maybe two thousand two, and I found it so fascinating

791
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: eating and I came home and said, well, I want

792
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: to watch the documentary about him. I looked and there

793
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 1: was no documentary about him, and I said, well, then

794
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: I'll read the book about him. And there was no

795
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: book about him or about that scene, which was incredible

796
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: that nobody had documented it. And then it was one

797
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: of those moments, well, well I guess, I guess I

798
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: have to do it right, um. And it was fascinating

799
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: to then get into that world of all the Venice

800
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 1: artists and the Robert Irwin ed Ruche and Keen Holds

801
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: and Larry Bell and Billy Albankston, that whole group of artists, um,

802
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: who were fascinating kind of a group of alpha males

803
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: kind of half and then we're Venice beach bum surfer

804
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: slash art modern artists and the other half for kind

805
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: of proto hippies living up into Panga or a Laurel Canyon,

806
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: and they all kind of came together around the las

807
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: Anega scene and would hang out of Barney's Beanery and

808
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: all that kind of legendary the early days of the

809
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: la arts scene. And again this was also feeding my

810
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: l A Has culture obsessions, so it was another middle

811
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: finger to the rest of the country. And what was

812
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: really interesting in making that film, and this is the

813
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: first time it ever really happened to me um and

814
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: it's happened a few times since. Where you make a

815
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: film and you never expect a film to have an

816
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: actual impact. You know, maybe people like it, but it

817
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: to actually change things you don't expect. Um. But the

818
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: Cool School was something that really planted a flag for

819
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: the fact that l A has a real art scene.

820
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: And out of that, I don't think it's a stretch

821
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: to say, and I think they admit it that. The

822
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: Getty then started their specific standard time series, this huge

823
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: year's long program um in, this huge oral history program.

824
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: And John Baldassari, who's in my film too, who was

825
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: teaching forever at cal Arts, said in the wake of

826
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: that film that for years he would tell his graduates

827
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: out of art school moved to New York, and that

828
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: year he said, stay in l A. Like case the

829
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: moment it changed. I mean, that must be very satisfying.

830
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: To have that level of impact. It was great. You

831
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: never expected. If I had, I probably would have bought

832
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: more art. Okay. And then who distributed that movie alter

833
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: a company called Art House. It was PBS aired it

834
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: here in the States, um and and it got out,

835
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: you know, it was on the BBC, and you know

836
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: it was around the World after the Art film then

837
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: and I did all kinds of things in between. I

838
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: did a film on um. I should look at my

839
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: IMDb to remember all them, you know. I did little

840
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: projects like an Iggy pop project about raw power. Um.

841
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: I'm a huge Iggy fan. UM. I did a film

842
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: about women and country music. Uh. Did a film by

843
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 1: the Highwayman. Um. So all kinds of so. And are

844
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: you working around the clock or you scrambling? You know.

845
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: Traditionally a movie producer as a number of projects and

846
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: it may take years one to actually flourish. Yeah, and

847
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: they could take years. I mean. Another one before I

848
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: move on was Stax Records. I did a film called

849
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: Respect Yourself with the Robert Gordon, which is one of

850
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: my favorite films I've done because stacks stacks music is

851
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: unbeatable and the story is well, that's the amazing thing.

852
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: I went to Memphis to do a gig. Everybody talks

853
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 1: about Nashville Memphis. There's so much just you, I mean,

854
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: between Sun and Stax and High and all of that stuff.

855
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: I mean, Memphis is just I love Memphis and you

856
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: go there and well, across the river's Arkansas. For those

857
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: of us live in California or coastal whatever, and you

858
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: know Mississippi is right there, right there, I know, by

859
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: down the border. In fact, I was there this summer

860
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: with my family and um, my wife and kids, and

861
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: I walked across the bridge to the Arkansas side just

862
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: to go over there, and I was driving him around. Yeah,

863
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: as I said, I did that, didn't do that. I said, well, God,

864
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: what am I ever going to get back to Arkansas?

865
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: Because I had in Arkansas? How do you end up

866
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: doing twenty feet from stardom? So? Um, I got a

867
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: call from somebody who knew Gil Freeson. And Gil many

868
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: people maybe listening will know, had been the president of

869
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: A and M Records and for forever, forever, from virtually

870
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: from the beginning. I think he was the first employee

871
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: actually at A and M, and people called him the

872
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: ampersand in A and M. So uh. And Gil was

873
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: retired and had invested his money wisely and was kind

874
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: of looking for a project. Um, and he somebody said,

875
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: do you want to be with him? He has a

876
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: music project he's talking about, and I said sure. So

877
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: we met. We actually first bonded over modern art because

878
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: he was a big modern art guy, and so was I.

879
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: So we talked about that. UM. I said, so what's

880
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: your what's your idea for a music film? And he said, well,

881
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: my wife and I went to a Leonard Cohen concert

882
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas and I smoked a joint and I

883
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: spent the whole concert looking at these amazing backup singers

884
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: he had, and Leonard Cohen didn't have amazing backup singers.

885
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: And uh, he said. The next day, A, I just

886
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: kept thinking about these backup singers and wondering what's their story.

887
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, that's really interesting. So so what's

888
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: the film? He said, I don't know. You have to

889
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: figure that out. Says like, okay, backup singers, um. And

890
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting for somebody who is such a music geek. UM.

891
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know much about backup singers. UM. And even

892
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 1: on my drive home, I was thinking about it and thinking,

893
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: you know, what are songs with great backup vocals? I

894
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: could come up with like six, you know, because your

895
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: brain is not programmed to notice what's in the background. UM.

896
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: And I over time completely reprogrammed my brain to to

897
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: this day when I hear a great song with backup vocals.

898
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: I added to a Spotify list I have just because

899
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: now it's like precious to collect, you know, great songs.

900
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: And I ended up with kind of hundreds of songs

901
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: and I put together a kind of a theoretical soundtrack. UM.

902
00:50:58,239 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: But it was another one of those things when I

903
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 1: went home said, well, who's written a book about him?

904
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: Who has made a film about them? Nothing? Nothing? I

905
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: found one article in gold Mine magazine and that was it.

906
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: On backup singing UM, And I said, well, then the

907
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: only way to learn about this world is to talk

908
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: to them. So I said, well, let's and this was

909
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: Gil's idea too, well, let's just do some interviews. Let's

910
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: talk to people. And he had found Lisa Fisher because

911
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 1: he knew sting and she was singing a sting at

912
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: the time. UM. And Lisa was great, and she opened

913
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: the door to a bunch of people, and there were

914
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: a few other people who really helped. UM. But we

915
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: ended up doing probably thirty forty oral histories in the beginning,

916
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: just to figure out how this world worked, like how

917
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 1: big is it? How what? What are the themes? You know? Um?

918
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: And what I very very quickly came into focus, like okay,

919
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: here I understand what the big themes are, you know,

920
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: and there are some of them seem obvious of you know,

921
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: the church finding its way into secular music and choir

922
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: of voices and um and kind of the themes of

923
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: the industry versus um versus um, you know, kind of

924
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: personal um integrity, I guess um. But the thing we

925
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 1: really discovered when we decided to kind of jump and

926
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: really make the film. I ended up interviewing over eighty

927
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: backup singers for the film, and I think only twenty

928
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: or in the film, but I learned so much by

929
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: talking to all of them that what the film ultimately

930
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: became about was that your happiness is directly proportional to

931
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: the piece you make with the life you're actually living,

932
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: not the life people have told you should live, or

933
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: that you thought you were supposed to live. That you know,

934
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: we live in a culture that tells us that being

935
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: a rock stars the most important thing, or being famous

936
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: and rich is the most important thing. And of course

937
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: very few people live that way. And for those of

938
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: us that can't get over that delusion, um, we can

939
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: be tortured by it. And the people who are best off.

940
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: For the people that I love, the singing, love, the

941
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: work for the sake of the work, and I think

942
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 1: that was the universal theme. And I didn't know this

943
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: when we started the film. I found it on the way,

944
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: but this is the theme I identified with, and this

945
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 1: is the theme so many people identified with, because most

946
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: people are backup singers for their life. And in fact,

947
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: we had a screening early on at the Minneapolis Film

948
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: Festival and a guy stood up in the Q and

949
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: A afterwards and said, you know, I just wanted to

950
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: say I'm the middle manager to software company, and you know,

951
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: I like what I do, but I don't get all

952
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: the money or attention in the world. And um, but

953
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: I'm I just here to say that I feel like

954
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm a backup singer and I'm happy to be about singer.

955
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: And the whole crowd applauded, and it was just one

956
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,439
Speaker 1: of those moments. You're like another one of those moments

957
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: where you make a film and you're like, this connected

958
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: in a way, per found way that I couldn't have

959
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: predicted when that happens. And this happened a few times.

960
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: You again, you don't go into films thinking, oh, you know,

961
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: it's going to make people feel this or do this

962
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: or change this. You can't play that game when you're

963
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: making a film. Well, you know, I remember seeing it

964
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: before the film came out, and it was utterly riveting,

965
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: and you knew it was something special. At what point,

966
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: because you've made a lot of producer and directed a

967
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, at what point do you say, wait,

968
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: this is different, Um, Sundance opening night film. Um, it

969
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 1: was kind of the night to change my life because

970
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: UM to be the opening night film and Sundance one

971
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: to the women in the film all came. None of

972
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 1: them had seen the film, so they're all in the audience.

973
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: And Gil passed away in December, so Sundances in January.

974
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: So we were finishing the film. Gil died, which, um,

975
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: you know, it was a rather fast illness, and so

976
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: all of Gil's friends, UM and family came to Sundance

977
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: to to support So Tom Freston and jan Winner and

978
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: all these people came to Sundance to support Gil, and

979
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: you know this was gils. I mean I think a

980
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: lot of them honestly thought it was Gil's folly for

981
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: a long time, like, how good luck Gil have documentary

982
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: about backup singers? You know, Um, but I know, I

983
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 1: mean Gil had said to me and I don't think

984
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: it's inappropriate to share it that when he was sick

985
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: in the hospital, he said everybody with cancer should have

986
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: a documentary they're working on, because I think it really

987
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 1: gave him something creative and positive to be thinking about

988
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: during that time. So I know he was very proud

989
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 1: of it. And then so that night, so we screened

990
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: the film and it's just electric. I mean, it's the

991
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: biggest theater there, people there, it's packed, and it's just unbelievable.

992
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: And the film ends, the women get up on the

993
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: stage with me and we're all kind of shaking and

994
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: they're all in tears because they hadn't seen the film,

995
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: and and uh and they started singing, and it was

996
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: just unbelievable. I mean, the crowd was, you know, just

997
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: you know, completely enthralled. And then we had that classic

998
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,439
Speaker 1: old school sundance experience where the film ends and it's

999
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: eleven PM and they say, Okay, now we're gonna stay

1000
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: up all night and sell your film. So we spent

1001
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: the next nine hours traveling from distributor to distributor while

1002
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: they made us offers on our movie, and we sold

1003
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: it at sunrise. So that classic sundance experience, you know,

1004
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: and by morning I was like, Okay, you know, I

1005
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 1: guess this is how it goes. And what was it

1006
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: like winning the Oscar? Um? Surreal? Um? It was? I

1007
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: mean it was you know, of course rewarding. And you know,

1008
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm as a lifelong film fanatic. Um. You know, there's

1009
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: no greater validation in that way, you know, whatever you

1010
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: think of the words, and you know, I too can

1011
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: be like, oh words, no matter but um, but it

1012
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: just feels like you can exhale in a way. Um.

1013
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 1: But the other thing I will say, by far, the

1014
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: most important outcome of that was that part. You know,

1015
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: Basically before then I was spending sixt of my time

1016
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: raising money to make my movies. Now I spend four

1017
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: percent of my time raising money to make movies. So

1018
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: I can just be so much more productive and so

1019
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: much more creative because of that. You know, whether or

1020
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: not that's valid, I'm the same filmmaker essentially I am

1021
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: now than I was before I won the Oscar. And

1022
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: if they need that validation to one of fund my movies,

1023
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: I get it. I'm not going to complain about it.

1024
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: You know. So people keep saying, oh, you've been so

1025
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: prolific since the Oscar part of it is I don't

1026
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: have to spend time trying to raise my I could

1027
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:05,120
Speaker 1: just make things, which is amazing. Where is the Oscar home?

1028
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: Some people keep it in the bathroom, some people put

1029
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: it in a Providence demands home my end I have,

1030
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: UM not to brag. My wife says, you haven't. You

1031
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: have a real ego because I have an Emmy, a

1032
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: Grammy and an Oscar, So I know you got I

1033
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: keep looking. If anybody out there has a um, you know,

1034
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: Broadway project, I would love to get involved. Okay, then

1035
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: you make the political movie? How does that come to

1036
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: get the Best of Enemies? Um? Again, I mean it's

1037
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: the Best of Enemies is a film about the debates

1038
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: between Corbette and Wayne M. Buckley. They had ABC television

1039
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: during the political conventions. And that again was Robert Gordon,

1040
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: my friend in Memphis, who had a bootleg tape years

1041
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: ago VHS tape that he had gotten of most of

1042
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: these debates, UM from somebody who was like the doll fanatic. Um.

1043
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: And I watched these debates raw and just thought there's

1044
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 1: something amazing here, Like I don't know what it is,

1045
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:07,919
Speaker 1: and I don't know what the story is or where

1046
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: it's going to go, but just in terms of huge

1047
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: characters way M. Buckley and Gore Vidal and huge themes,

1048
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: and I just felt like whatever it was saying was

1049
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: saying something about what's happened to television. And it was

1050
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: one of those great stories that once you start telling it,

1051
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: it gets better and better. You know, every detail it

1052
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 1: gets added just gets juicier and juicier. But that was

1053
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: the film we had started making before from Stardom. In

1054
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: the wake of from Stardom, suddenly people said, oh, what else,

1055
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: And we said, well, I have this film Best of Enemies.

1056
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: It's great, we'll finish it. I don't know if I

1057
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: hadn't made start them, if I ever would have gotten

1058
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: the money to finish Best of Enemies, you know, as

1059
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: sad as that is to say. And then how does

1060
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers movie come together? That happened because I was,

1061
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the real story. I home, um in bed

1062
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: at night on YouTube and somebody had maybe sent me

1063
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: a link of a Mr. Rogers commencement address he had given,

1064
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: and I somehow went down the YouTube rabbit hole of

1065
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: watching more Mr Rogers, particularly speeches and interviews, and as

1066
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: I was hearing it. I just kept feeling like, where's

1067
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: this voice today? Like what he's saying is exactly what

1068
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: I feel the culture should be hearing right now, this

1069
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: kind of voice of radical kindness and empathy and understanding.

1070
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: And um, and I woke up in the morning and

1071
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,439
Speaker 1: I turned to my wife and I said, I think

1072
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: I need to make a film about Mr. Rogers. And

1073
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,919
Speaker 1: she's a children's librarian, I will say, and she said,

1074
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: I love that idea. Um. I literally went to the office. UM.

1075
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: I made a couple of calls, and I'd made a

1076
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: film with Yo Yo Maa and his and Yo Yo

1077
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: knew Fred Rogers pretty well and had told me stories

1078
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: about to which was also in the back of my mind.

1079
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: And Yo Yo son is a filmmaker, and I called

1080
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: him and I said, is this crazy to make a

1081
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: film about Fred Rogers? He said, not only is that

1082
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: not crazy, I want to produce it with you. So

1083
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: he's one of my producers. And so we flew to Pittsburgh.

1084
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: We sat down and I said to them, you know,

1085
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: I'm again not sued to do a Wikipedia version of

1086
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: Fred rodgers life. I want to make a film about ideas.

1087
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: And to me, his ideas are incredibly relevant today. This

1088
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: is not a film about nostalgia. There's a film about

1089
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 1: the big things he thought fought for. And I think

1090
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: what they responded to was that he was never taken

1091
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: very seriously in his own lifetime. So what we were

1092
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: trying to say, I think was something they felt needed

1093
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: to be said for a long time. But it was

1094
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 1: again purely instinctual, like, this is something I want to

1095
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: put out in the world, and I again having no

1096
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: idea how much the world wanted to hear it. I

1097
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: had no idea how big an audience for Mr. Rogers

1098
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: would be. Um well became a phenomenon. What was the

1099
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: what was the ultimate theatrical gross? About three? Yeah? And

1100
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: I have to ask you did some of that fall

1101
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 1: to your bottom line? Not yet? Yea? How long it

1102
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: takes for studios to pay well usually I I worked

1103
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: as an attorney on a film that was the second

1104
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: biggest of a year, and it was three years later

1105
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: and the film was still in the negative part position

1106
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: for the profit participants. It's that crazy. It's crazy. I mean,

1107
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: we got a bonus, but but I think the real

1108
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: if if I do see back end, it hasn't happened yet,

1109
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 1: so we'll see. And we had two great group investors

1110
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: and other people that kind of came in to help

1111
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: us make that film. Well, what's the budget for a

1112
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: film like that? UM? Just under two? Okay? Yeah, So theoretically,

1113
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: what percent of the film do you the What percentage

1114
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:59,919
Speaker 1: did you still have? UM? What percentage of the back

1115
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: of the profits? Profit participants? UM? I mean typically equity

1116
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: would control about back end and creative about back end,

1117
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: and then with my producers and team, I shared that

1118
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: back end, so you know, maybe a quarter you know,

1119
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: thank you about Okay. So what are you working on now? Um?

1120
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: Other than the Shangri Law project? I don't. I hate

1121
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 1: to say this, but I can't say what I'm working on? Okay,

1122
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 1: then we will we will go specifics. How many films

1123
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 1: are you working on right now? I'm not actually making

1124
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: a film at this very moment, but I'm about to

1125
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: work on two projects. And if they go according to plan,

1126
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: they would be ready for the market when one would

1127
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: come out in the one would come out. Okay. So,

1128
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: now that you've had the success, especially in non music areas, UM,

1129
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: are you personally thinking of broadening from music? Yeah? And

1130
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: my last three films haven't been about music, and um,

1131
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: and I've kind of willfully turned down any music documentaries. Uh,

1132
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: and these next two are not music documentaries. UM. I

1133
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: am interested in music series, and I'm working on some

1134
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: music series, and I've produced some music documentaries and even

1135
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: back in the day, I produced music documentaries. I produced

1136
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: Pearl Jam twenty for Cameron Crow, and I produced Crossfire

1137
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:27,959
Speaker 1: Hurricane for The Stones, and UM, you know, I still

1138
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 1: love music. I think part of it is I just

1139
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: don't want to be Pigeonholed is like the music one

1140
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 1: of the two best music documentaries ever ever leaving anything

1141
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: you worked on out. I mean, it's funny. Some of

1142
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: my favorite music documentaries are about bands I don't love.

1143
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: You know, which is great? You know, whether it's UM

1144
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: some kind of Monster or the Metallica film, UM or

1145
01:04:54,520 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: Um The Devil and Daniel Johnson, UM, all kinds of

1146
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: other interesting ones. UM not Dead yet. Have you ever

1147
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: saw that one? No? I didn't see that one. And

1148
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: not to mention neither the kind of great concert docs

1149
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: Stop making Sense and Last Waltz and things like that. UM.

1150
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 1: And I watch every single music documentary. I don't think

1151
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: you could find a music documentary I haven't watched. Okay, Um,

1152
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask whether you thought certain ones were overrated?

1153
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: But in your viewing time, how much viewing do you

1154
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 1: take of anything? I still watch at least a hundred

1155
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: documentaries a year. And but how about like Netflix series

1156
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: that are not documentaries? Not that many some? Um, I

1157
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 1: watch a ton of movies. I mean I watch a

1158
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: ton of documentaries. I watch a lot of movies, old

1159
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 1: and new. Um. And then I watched only the very

1160
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: best series like if five people tell me I need

1161
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: to watch it? So have you watched? I just watched Chernobyl? Okay,

1162
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 1: what do you think? I it was really good? How

1163
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: much you know? How much did you know about Chernobyl

1164
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 1: going in? Not that much? You know, I wasn't. I

1165
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: was young and not paying that much attention to it

1166
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: at the time. And um, yeah, I really I found it.

1167
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: It got to me. Okay, that was, you know, somewhat documentary.

1168
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 1: What other series? Um? You know Fleabag and I loved

1169
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: the new season of Fleabag. Um. You know I love

1170
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: kind of biting Black comedy is one one of my

1171
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: very favorite gears. Um, And I guess by extension and

1172
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 1: killing Eve I really liked UM, but not that many series.

1173
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think, you know, it's just the time investment,

1174
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: of course, I mean, but the thing that bothers me.

1175
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: I'm obviously a little older than you was. I remember

1176
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: moving to l a in the seventies and I go

1177
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: to the movie six nights a week. You could literally

1178
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: see everything and you could know what was going on.

1179
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: The fact that in all culture you can't be comprehensive

1180
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: drives me nuts. Me too. It's like, you know, where's

1181
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: the frame of I have the same disease. You know

1182
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 1: that there was a long time where I just felt

1183
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: like I had to be culturally conversant in pretty much

1184
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: everything television, movie, music, literature, Like I just had to

1185
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: be up on everything. And um, I think it was

1186
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: both getting older and having kids that cured me of

1187
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: feeling like I had to do everything because you can't.

1188
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's just become this avalanche, never ending avalanche

1189
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 1: of more culture coming at you. So so now I try.

1190
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: And you know, like I said, when it comes to documentary,

1191
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: I'll watch everything because the good thing about documentary is

1192
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 1: even a bad documentary, you're going to learn something. I

1193
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 1: can't say that about it. One thing. One thing. I five.

1194
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons I don't go to

1195
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: theatrical films anymore I have been, is I find I

1196
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: can't slow my mind down enough for that experience. It's like, oh,

1197
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 1: to watch even last night, to watch, you know, episode

1198
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: of something at eleven o'clock at night, no problem, but

1199
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: like even seven pm, two pm. You know, I said,

1200
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a break, but I just it's really

1201
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: hard to slow down, and particularly I think it's harder.

1202
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,959
Speaker 1: I have a much easier time doing it in the theater,

1203
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: but when you try and watch a movie at home,

1204
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 1: it's really hard not to double screen, you know, and

1205
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: that's not good for the film or good for you,

1206
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: and I try not to do it. I was just

1207
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 1: talking to a friend of mine who says she's watching

1208
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 1: all films with subtitles because it forces her not to

1209
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: double screen. She has to only watch that movie at

1210
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: that time. And you say, you watch docs, you watch

1211
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 1: new movies. What genre of movies do you watch? Um?

1212
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: I mean I love independent film and foreign I also

1213
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: have to uh young kids twelve and fourteen, so it

1214
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: means I see every Marvel movie, And um, I'm just

1215
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: not the audience for it, you know, or can you

1216
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 1: enjoy that? You know? This is a big debate, and

1217
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,400
Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean, seeing a film like Endgame,

1218
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,080
Speaker 1: I actually thought for the Thousand Balls, they had the

1219
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: air on that film. They did an incredibly good job

1220
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,719
Speaker 1: of balancing it in a way that satisfied most people.

1221
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 1: You know, incredibly difficult task. I know that as a filmmaker,

1222
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 1: how difficult that is to do. And a film like

1223
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 1: thor Ragnarok, you know, has all of that humor in

1224
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 1: it too, And certain films like that or Spider of

1225
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 1: the Spider Verse I thought was great just for its

1226
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 1: kind of experimental attitude. Let's hold that. Because you're talking

1227
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: about your kids, do your kids turn you onto new music?

1228
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 1: My kids are not that into music. It's very strange. Um,

1229
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: of course, Like my daughter is obsessed with you know,

1230
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: Queen right now because of them Rhapsody, and we're going

1231
01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: to go see them when they come to town next month.

1232
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: And I know it's not the same thing, but whatever.

1233
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm just happy to take her to a concert that

1234
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:48,720
Speaker 1: she's excited about. Um, But my kids are not. Their

1235
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,440
Speaker 1: relationship to music is not what my relationship was. Um.

1236
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: I mean I grew up in record stores, devouring as

1237
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 1: much music as I could get, and to me, it

1238
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: was like my you know, I'm not the first person

1239
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: to say it, it it was kind of my religion. It

1240
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 1: was like how I found a sense of identity in

1241
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 1: connection with the world. Um, and music for young people

1242
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 1: just doesn't penetrate. It can, but seeing the choices they have,

1243
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: whether it's social media or video games or just YouTube

1244
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 1: or all of the other things coming at them, it's

1245
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 1: hard for them to have the the quietude to be

1246
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: able to let music in in the same way. We

1247
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: could go on about that, I'd be a separate podcast.

1248
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: But going back to theatrical films, you know, one of

1249
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 1: the big stories the last couple of weeks has been

1250
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 1: Book Smart and its failure in the marketplace. Some people

1251
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: said it should have been platformed. I starting in a

1252
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: few number of theaters, good gross is press whatever the

1253
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 1: distributor said, No, no, the word of mouth will happen,

1254
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 1: which doesn't seem to be happening. Is the theatrical really

1255
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: just for these big budget cartoon movies. Well, again, it

1256
01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: depends on expectations. So I went to go see book

1257
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: Smart this week. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it

1258
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:07,679
Speaker 1: was great, you know, um, and it's gonna break twenty

1259
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 1: million and then some which so it's not a failure

1260
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: unless you compare it to Super Bad, and I think

1261
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: it's an unfair comparison. I think all the people that

1262
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:20,200
Speaker 1: were saying, um, it was it should have done that

1263
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:23,799
Speaker 1: kind of box office were just misreading the tea leaves

1264
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: because not only was Super Bad ten years ago in

1265
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 1: a very different theatrical space, but you know, there are

1266
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 1: no big names playing prominently in the film. Um, it's

1267
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 1: a first time director. Yes, she's well known, but it's

1268
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:41,879
Speaker 1: some harder slog to get that film sold. I personally

1269
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,600
Speaker 1: probably would have platformed it more if I was the distributor,

1270
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: because I think it's an excellent word of mouth film

1271
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 1: and opening it not many theaters, I think a couple

1272
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: of I think that was shooting very high. Um, because

1273
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,640
Speaker 1: it is a great, great film. Um, and it's my

1274
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 1: wife and I went it was a great date night film.

1275
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,759
Speaker 1: You know, it was the future of that type of film,

1276
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: anything other than the uh special effects, you know, Marvel

1277
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 1: type film. Is that really the flat screen? It's hard

1278
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 1: to know again, you know, if you asked me two

1279
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 1: years ago I probably said yes. Then I put out

1280
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 1: a documentary that nobody thought would doing, ring that grows

1281
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 1: more than twenty million dollars about a guy who was

1282
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:30,640
Speaker 1: on TV, you know, decades ago. Um. So what I

1283
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 1: do think in a certain way, I mean, what the

1284
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:34,960
Speaker 1: reason I think people went to the movie theater to

1285
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 1: go see Won't You Be My Neighbor was that they

1286
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 1: wanted a communal experience, And what Mr Rogers was about

1287
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 1: was the neighborhood and kind of community. And in many

1288
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: ways the film is like a secular sermon, so it

1289
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:53,719
Speaker 1: plays better if you're watching with other people. I heard

1290
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 1: many people say that there was spontaneous hugging between strangers

1291
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: at the end of screenings in the theaters. That's either

1292
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 1: creepy or great however you look at it. So um,

1293
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 1: but stuff like that makes me happy. So I feel

1294
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,960
Speaker 1: like whenever I whenever you want to close the coffin

1295
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 1: on theatrical small theatrical films, Um, something happens and something

1296
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: unexpected happens, and something new comes out of it. So

1297
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 1: not dead yet, I would say, is is what I

1298
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: would classify it as. Um, But it's certainly not what

1299
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:29,640
Speaker 1: it was, you know, in terms of I mean the

1300
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 1: real thing I think is the mid level films that

1301
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 1: cost million dollars to make. Um, the kind of adult

1302
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 1: dramas and comedies that just don't get made in the

1303
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 1: same way anymore. They've all those stories have migrated to

1304
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: television essentially. Okay, So you have twenty or thirty years

1305
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 1: left to make movies, maybe a little bit more if

1306
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,680
Speaker 1: your career kept on this thing and you kept on

1307
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 1: making documentaries. Are you happy or is there some big

1308
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: yet unful old dream. Um, I'm happy. You know. It's

1309
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 1: funny because people still will come up and say, oh, well,

1310
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: when you're gonna make a real movie. So I've been

1311
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 1: making movies for twenty years, um, and you know I

1312
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 1: love scripted movies, and I've flirted with different projects that

1313
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 1: haven't happened, and um, and one may happen and it

1314
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 1: would be fun, you know, it'd be a fun challenge.

1315
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 1: But my day job is documentary and it's always gonna

1316
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 1: be documentary. I mean, that same sensation I had two

1317
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 1: weeks into making my first documentary, where I knew it

1318
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 1: was my life's calling has not changed, and that, in

1319
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 1: a way gives me great comfort because it means whatever

1320
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:44,519
Speaker 1: I'm into at whatever age I can make a film

1321
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: about it and learn about it and it will fulfill me.

1322
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: Let's just go back because a lot of this the

1323
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 1: audience for this podcast is people who are into music.

1324
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 1: How do you feel about today's music? I'm I have

1325
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 1: a much harder time being into music in the way

1326
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: I was into it before because that you were the music.

1327
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to judge. Um, I'm not gonna

1328
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 1: push you on it. No, I don't. I mean, I

1329
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:09,440
Speaker 1: listened to plenty of music, but I feel like my relationship,

1330
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 1: I gave so much of my life to music that

1331
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 1: I'm kind of Um, it just took up so much

1332
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 1: my life that I feel like I'm on sabbatical. You know.

1333
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 1: When I come back and find a new artists I love,

1334
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:25,839
Speaker 1: It's great. Um, but it kind of ebbs and flows.

1335
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 1: So you're a cultural vulture. And even though you do

1336
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 1: not comprehensive like you used to be, you still you

1337
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:36,679
Speaker 1: know there's a smugger's board of stuff that you partake of.

1338
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 1: For my audience, can you recommend two things that they're

1339
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: unaware of? Music, movies, books, documentaries that they really should

1340
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: check out? Um? Sure, Can I think about this for

1341
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: a minute. Uh, well, you know, I didn't mean to

1342
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 1: put you on the snow. I know, because I want

1343
01:15:57,160 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: to give the best answer problems. Like in the New

1344
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 1: York Times book review, they say, you know what's on

1345
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 1: your nightstand when there's no way in hell those books

1346
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:06,639
Speaker 1: around the nightstand. It's like they just want to look

1347
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 1: good for the audience who is looking at that. So,

1348
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 1: I mean, like the last film I made I loved Um,

1349
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:15,680
Speaker 1: I mean or film I saw that I loved, I

1350
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:22,800
Speaker 1: mean Book Smart. I would certainly recommend UM, and I've

1351
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 1: been I signed up for the Criterion Channel. They have

1352
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 1: their news streaming service. Highly recommend the Criterion streaming service.

1353
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: As a real ciny asked, you know, I love the

1354
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 1: chance to be able to just go back into that

1355
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: and supporting those types of films and making sure we

1356
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:40,880
Speaker 1: can still see those types of films too. What are

1357
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 1: a couple that you would recommend? And this is just

1358
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, on the channel in general. Um, I've been

1359
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 1: going through a Cassavettis phase, which has been interesting. So

1360
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:54,759
Speaker 1: what's your favorite Cassavettis um Chinese bookie? Really? Yeah, mine's

1361
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 1: Woman under the Influence. I think he really nails how

1362
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:00,160
Speaker 1: the you know, Peter Flack has no idea what's went

1363
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:03,280
Speaker 1: on with his wife, and his wife is really I

1364
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: just found the juxtaposition really good. Yeah, and they know

1365
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: there's something about that time period too, and you know

1366
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 1: a lot of Los Angeles and some of that stuff too,

1367
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 1: But I just really respond to um. So yeah, in

1368
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 1: a way, I end up going backwards more than anything. Well,

1369
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:23,479
Speaker 1: the movies were different with a great thing about a

1370
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: movie and whether it's certainly better to theatrical experience, is

1371
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 1: that it shuts out the rest of the world, and

1372
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: when done well, you're immersed. I want that experience, you know,

1373
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 1: you want an experience where you don't want to check

1374
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 1: your phone, you don't want to look at your watch. Yeah,

1375
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 1: that is like the best review you can get. Check

1376
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 1: my phone once, you know which I aspired to. Okay Morgan,

1377
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,200
Speaker 1: this has been wonderful. The audience will look forward to

1378
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 1: your Rick Ruben project. Thanks so much for being on

1379
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,720
Speaker 1: the podcast. Talking to you until next time. This is

1380
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:52,639
Speaker 1: Bob left Sets