1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: I don't picture running out of roads. I don't picture 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: running out of towns. I don't picture running out of 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: places to go shopping. I picture running out of wilderness. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: The term American wilderness is evocative to me, pulling forth 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: a collage of emotions, imagery, and ideals. Oddly, I'd draw 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: from it a sense of personal identity, even though I 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: live most of my life inside the confines of modern civilization. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: I'd like to think I came up with all of 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: this on my own, or I would have got to 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: the same place if I was the first and only 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 2: human to ever set foot in North America. But I 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: don't think I would have. I'm in search of the 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: unique journey that built American ideals on wild lands or wilderness, 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: and even more foundational than that, to defy what wilderness is. 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 3: It's ironic. 16 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 2: This is a big and complex story, and I think 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: it should be in the survival kit of basic knowledge 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: of every American, because every one of us has a 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: doctrine on it. For this challenging pilgrimage, I've recruited the 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: health of a worthy group of authors. Good authors doctor 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 2: Dan Flores, doctor Sarah Dant, Stephen Ranella, and Hal Herring. 22 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: This story is about why wilderness is still here in 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: modern times, how we interact with it, and how the 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: land formed American identity. Let me warn you that this 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: is going to be a lot of workfolks, and let 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: it be known that the Bear Grease Academy of Backwoodsmanship, 27 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: Philosophy and Culture is now in session. You may be 28 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: able to find a buckscrape, or use your phone to 29 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: find hunting land, or even catch a catfish on a trotline. 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: But if you don't know the deep history. 31 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: Of your own passion, you ain't no backwoodsman. This is 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: gonna be good, and I really doubt that you're going 33 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: to want to miss this one. 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 4: Romantics and environmentalists in particular have elevated it to almost 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 4: a sacred word. It has a kind of a meaning 36 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 4: as an idea that I'm not sure other parts of 37 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: the world other cultures completely share. 38 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: My name is Klay Nukem, and this is the Bear 39 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 2: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search 40 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 2: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the 41 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. 42 00:02:54,639 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: Presented by FHF Gear American Made Purpose built and fishing 43 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place. 44 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 3: As we explore. What range of mountains is this over here? 45 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 4: That's the Hamus Range. This is the Orties Mountains. Okay, 46 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 4: of course, the range behind Santa Fe is the song grays, 47 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 4: the sungread of Cristo, which means blood of Christ. The 48 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 4: Spanish colonizers named it that because at sunset, the alp 49 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 4: and glow made the mountains look like they were bloody, 50 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 4: covering blood on the snowfields. 51 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: You may recognize this man's voice. This is author and 52 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: historian doctor Dan Flores. I'm in New Mexico on his 53 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: back porch. The song grade di Cristo start in Poncha 54 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: Pass in central Colorado, with ten peaks over fourteenth thousand feet. 55 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: They pushed two hundred and forty two miles south, ending 56 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 2: at Glorieta Pass near Santa Fe, New Mexico. The landscape 57 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: closer to us between here and these blood colored mountains 58 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: is a less intimidating stretch of arid high desert. 59 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 3: I want to describe to you what it looks like. 60 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: Imagine the rosette pattern of the jaguar spots, but it's 61 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 2: set on the brilliant tan of an American mountain lion. 62 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: The rolling hills are tinted beige by the dead winter 63 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 2: grasses and bleached soil, but littered with dark juniper clumps. 64 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: Doctor Flores wants to read me a quote. 65 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 4: You understand, this isn't the third place I've had wonderful 66 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 4: I have done this, so I'll read you this. J. 67 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: Frank Dobe was a very famous folklorist and author of 68 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 4: the wild but I thought i'd bring you up. He 69 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 4: just stand in this spot and read what he says. 70 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 4: The greatest happiness possible to a man is to become civilized, 71 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: to know the pageant of the past, to love the beautiful, 72 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 4: and then retaining his animal instincts and appetites to live 73 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 4: in a wilderness. 74 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: That's that's powerful, isn't it. Yeah, that's what we want 75 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: to do. 76 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: We want to be able to have We want to 77 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 2: live in civilization. 78 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, you want to be civilized. You want to have 79 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: access to the world, right, But it's it's so it's 80 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 4: the thorough thing. Threau had this comment once about you know, 81 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 4: I like to live with one foot in civilization and 82 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 4: one foot in wilderness. And the question is always which 83 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: one do you rest on? Which foot do you rest on? 84 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 4: What I've always liked to do is to rest on 85 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 4: the the wilderness foot, and then town's only twenty minutes away. 86 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 2: J Frank, Dobie, Henry, David Threaux, and doctor Flores had 87 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 2: and have a refined doctrine on dealing with wilderness. Doctrine 88 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: just means the way that you live, and truthfully, we 89 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: all have a doctrine on wild places. If you live 90 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: near one or have never been to one, you have 91 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 2: a doctrine. You can't be doctrine less. I'm in search 92 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: of America's wilderness doctrine and how I got mine. I 93 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: think a good starting place in this conversation is to 94 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 2: define wilderness, which will learn is tricky. I asked Stephen 95 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 2: Ranella about his definition. 96 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: I'll tell you I think when I hear the word 97 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: American wilderness, my working present day twenty twenty four definition 98 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: of American wilderness. My usage is relative. There are landscapes 99 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: where I would go, as an example, the north slope 100 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: of the Brooks in Alaska. I would say that's wilderness 101 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: because relative to everything else that is wild. 102 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 3: If we put. 103 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: Wildness on a one to ten, a one being Manhattan, 104 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: and then we had to find a ten. When I 105 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: say wildness natural ecosystem, I'm gonna use another controversial term, 106 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say absence of man Okay, absence of man. 107 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: If Manhattan is a one, we need a ten. The 108 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: north sorp of the Brooks Range is the ten. It's wilderness. 109 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: And then let me say that if we imagine that 110 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: framework that scale one to ten, I would say, I 111 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: suppose wilderness starts at around eight. Here's another I'm gonna 112 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: add another thing that's gonna trip some people out. That's 113 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: gonna trip some philosophers and academics out. They're most they 114 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: most closely resemble relative to everything else. This landscape looked 115 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: like upon European contact with one important caveat Those places 116 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: were sparsely inhabited by individuals at that time, potentially with 117 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: great absences that any given spot might oh ten years, 118 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: twenty years, thirty years without seeing it person, and there 119 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: were people on the landscape. That's my sort of working 120 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: definition that it like I can't ever look at it 121 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: in isolation. 122 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 3: I have to look at it. 123 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: Like compared to what so I'm like, it's wilderness compared 124 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: to everything that's not. You're not going to find two 125 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: people that are going to give you the same definition 126 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: of this. 127 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: On the Ranella scale of wildness, the wild O meter, 128 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: wilderness starts at eight out of ten. The spectrum swings 129 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: from Manhattan to the Alaskan Brooks Range. That's a helpful analogy, 130 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: but shows the subjective nature of the term. Will learn 131 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: that there are more concrete ways to define it. The 132 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: word wilderness was first used in the thirteenth century the 133 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: twelve hundreds, but gain steam in the thirteen hundreds when 134 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: John Wycliffe's English translation of the Bible use the new 135 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: word to describe the uninhabited land that's spoken of all 136 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: throughout the Old book. The deep etymology of the word 137 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: stems from the Norse languages, and its root is the 138 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: word will, as in self willed or wilful. From willed 139 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: comes the word wild, which is also connected to the 140 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: Old Swedish word for boiling water, meaning unruly, chaotic, or confused. 141 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 2: The second part of the word wilderness, the dur will durness, 142 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: is the Old English word for animal diordeo r. Put 143 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: this together with this new word wild and you get 144 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 2: wild dore. And then you add a ness and you 145 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: can see the word wild door ness, which essentially means 146 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: self willed or uncontrollable land of wild beasts. Holy smokes, 147 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: I like the sound of that. It kind of makes 148 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: me quiver a little bit. But this word needs more definition. 149 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: Doctor Sarah Dant is a professor and author and she 150 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: works at Weber College in Utah. She just published a 151 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: book called Losing Eden. I asked her to define wilderness. 152 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 5: So wilderness, I think can be many things. It kind 153 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 5: of depends on who you ask. If we went into 154 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 5: a bar and asked fifteen different people what's wilderness, we'd 155 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 5: get fifteen different ideas and probably a small bar fight 156 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 5: in the process. So you know, if we think about 157 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 5: it just as a kind of an emotional reaction to it, 158 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 5: it is this place that we go where there aren't 159 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 5: other people, right, It's the place that we go and 160 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 5: get to be much more one on one with nature. 161 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 5: I think fundamentally, for a lot of people, that's wilderness. 162 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 5: But that's not what the political definition is that creates 163 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 5: boundaries and puts up signs and creates management plans. That's 164 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 5: a very different idea about wilderness. In that case, it's 165 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 5: the law says basically it's an area that has been 166 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 5: untrammeled by man, where man is a visitor who does 167 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 5: not remain. And so it's this idea that it's it's 168 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 5: a place that a lot of people would probably use 169 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 5: the word christine. But I think those kinds of ideas, 170 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 5: how do we talk about places that are not developed? 171 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 5: How do we talk about places that don't have roads 172 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 5: and motor vehicles and houses? Those places have real value 173 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 5: in part now because they're so scarce. 174 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 2: Doctor Dant brought up two important components of our conversation. 175 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: Number one, there is a legal definition of wilderness, as 176 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: in federally regulated wilderness with a capital W. 177 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: Will get to it. 178 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: Secondly, and most importantly, wilderness, the self willed land of 179 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: wild beasts, has value because of its scarcity. 180 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 3: Will come back to this. 181 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: I want to introduce you to another fella, but don't 182 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: let the Alabama gravel in his voice fool you. Hal 183 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: Harring is a lifelong writer and spokesperson for wild Lands 184 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: who's lived most of his adult life in Montana, but 185 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 2: he was born and raised in Alabama. I asked him 186 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: to define wilderness. 187 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 6: Well when I was younger and living in Alabama, when 188 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 6: I was a kid, I didn't really have a definition 189 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 6: of it. And then when I was older and started traveling, 190 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 6: like in Montana at Wyoming, it was beyond the legal 191 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 6: definition or the federal you know, regulation type definition, the designation. 192 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 6: I think think it was a feeling that there were 193 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 6: these places left on this earth that you could enter. 194 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 6: I mean, I mean the language in the Wilderness Act 195 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 6: is that where it will remain untrammeled, where man is 196 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 6: a visitory, does it remain all that? And that's true, 197 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 6: that was required maybe to hold on to this feeling. 198 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 6: But it's the feeling of you're now entered a place 199 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 6: that's ruled by something other than the endeavors of human beings, 200 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 6: and it's a place that's ruled still by older laws. 201 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 6: Nature's time, the world's time, not yours. But to me 202 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 6: it was freedom. Freedom was the first thing. 203 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: Wilderness is a feeling a place not governed by man's laws. Now, 204 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: that's interesting, and the legal definition of wilderness was designed 205 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: to preserve a feeling. That's even more interesting. How Aldo Leopold, 206 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: who's considered the father of modern American wildern Us will 207 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: get more to him later to find wilderness as quote 208 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: a continuous stretch of country preserved in its natural state, 209 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: open to lawful hunting and fishing, big enough to absorb 210 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: a two week's pack trip, and kept devoid of roads, 211 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: artificial trails, cottages, and other works of man. 212 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: End of quote. 213 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: That's really functional, But his description of absorbing a two 214 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: week pack trip probably delivers the most understandable definition to 215 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: this day. And I did think it was cute that 216 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: he used the word cottages. I have a question for 217 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: Steve Ranella, what does the word wilderness do for you 218 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: at an emotional level? 219 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 4: Like? 220 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: What does does it make you feel warm and fuzzy inside? 221 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: Does it make you fearful? Does it make you want 222 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: to go there? Does it make you not want to 223 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: go there? What does what does that term do for you? 224 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: Makes me want to go there, but I don't need 225 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: to go there to love it being there. I have 226 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: that I have a fear of running out of it. 227 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: I don't picture running out of roads. I don't picture 228 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: running out of towns. I don't picture running out of 229 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: places to go shopping. I don't picture running out of airports. 230 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: I don't picture running out of subdivisions. I don't picture 231 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: running out of golf courses. I picture running out of wilderness. 232 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: Because you don't. 233 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: Get it back. We've never gotten. You don't get any 234 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: of it back. Once it's gone, it's gone. Man, It's 235 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: like when you lay some concrete over it. 236 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: It's gone. Gone. 237 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: Everybody we've heard from so far values wilderness. They like it, 238 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: which is a very new idea to mankind, well sort of. 239 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: In his book Wilderness in the American Mind, Roderick Nash 240 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: states that all ancient culture had an idea of paradise 241 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: as a garden, which is actually the antithesis of wilderness. 242 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: A garden is ordered and protected, delivering resources and security. 243 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: It's controllable, it's manipulated by man. Considering that primitive man's 244 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: number one concern was simply survival, and lack of control 245 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: was a dangerous variable. Man's greatest good was to live 246 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: a life that rose out of this self willed land. 247 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: This has been a roadmap to man's journey over the 248 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: last ten thousand years. Rising out of wilderness and the 249 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: rudimentary mechanism of man's control over nature were number one. 250 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: Fire initially used to beat back the vegetation and make 251 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: clearings that offered visibility and safety. Yeah, it's like super 252 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: primitive number two, the domestication of wild animals to secure 253 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: meat so horses, and number three domesticating wild plants and 254 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: cultivating land to create predictable food sources through crops. These 255 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 2: things congregated people, increased birth rates, and probably most importantly, 256 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: joined human minds in greater numbers into collaboration on what 257 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: it meant to be human, of which a primary definition 258 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: became humans overcome wilderness and bring it into control. I 259 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: am very aware that this is a very general summation 260 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 2: of human history that does not include modern hunter gatherer 261 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: tribes that are still functioning at some level even today. 262 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: The word wilderness is used two hundred and forty five 263 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 2: times in the Old Testament of the Bible and thirty 264 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: five times in the New Testament. The garden of Eden 265 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: was the antithesis of wilderness. In God's first punishment of 266 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: man was to cast him out of. 267 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 3: The garden into it. 268 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 2: Later, the Israelites would wander in the wilderness for forty 269 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: years as a judgment and a time of testing and tribulation. 270 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: In the New Testament, Jesus met Satan himself in the 271 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: wilderness in the Temptation of Christ. The wilderness was a 272 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: dangerous place. The wilderness is where you went to die. 273 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: A first century Roman poet named Cheris criticized the earth 274 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: as greedily possessed by mountains in the forests of wild beasts. 275 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: In Greek mythology, a half goat half man creature named 276 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: pan was the lord of the woods, and the English 277 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: word panic stems from the striking fear one feels when 278 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: in the woods and you hear strange, unexplainable sounds. It's 279 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: clear that wilderness cuts deep into our culture. It's also 280 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: important not to confuse the Old World's a preciation of 281 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: rural pastoral settings with wilderness. Art, folk tales, and music 282 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: celebrating livestock and farming were very real and popular, but 283 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: that's not wilderness. To this day, Western culture often views 284 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: disassembling wilderness and making it productive as a moral obligation. 285 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: Roderick Nash wrote this intellectual legacy of the Old World 286 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: to the New not only helped determine initial responses, but 287 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 2: left a lasting imprint on American thought. When Europeans got here, 288 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: we thought it was our moral obligation to tame what 289 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: we perceived as wilderness. 290 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 3: The word wilderness. 291 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: Has forces behind it that may not be evident and 292 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: on these ideas form the basis of understanding of modern wilderness, 293 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 2: and it's evident that our current situation on Earth, comparing 294 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: it to early man, has massively shifted. Once civilized areas 295 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: were scarce and the greedy wild lands filled with awful 296 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 2: beasts dominated this place. But this last epic of man's 297 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: journey has turned the tables, and now from the dominating 298 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: platform of civilization, we're trying to save an artifact of 299 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 2: wild lands. The contrast between the old world's ideas about 300 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 2: wilderness and many ideas today are vastly different. Here's doctor 301 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 2: Flores breaking down what wilderness is, which will lead us 302 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: into a broader picture of America's wild ometer. 303 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 4: I think I would have to say that wilderness is 304 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 4: both a reality and an idea, and there's certainly overlap 305 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: between the two. But one of the fascinating parts of 306 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 4: the whole wilderness concept, and especially the role that wilderness 307 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: has played in America, where environmentalists, romantics and environmentalists in 308 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 4: particular have elevated it to almost a sacred word. It 309 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: has a kind of a meaning as an idea that 310 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 4: I'm not sure other parts of the world, other cultures 311 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 4: completely share. It's probably more important to us as a people, 312 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 4: to Americans, to Americans than it has been to anyone 313 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 4: else around the globe. And that has to do with 314 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 4: the peculiarities of American history. 315 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: The peculiarities of American history. I'm very interested in this, 316 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: doctor Flores, But like a load of unfolded laundry sitting 317 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 2: on the table before the company shows up, we've got 318 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: some work to do before we can talk about that. 319 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: He said, it's an overlapping reality and an idea. We've 320 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: been talking about the idea of wilderness, but the reality 321 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: is the actual federal designation of public land called wilderness areas. 322 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: The Wilderness Act of nineteen sixty four instituted this, but 323 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: the idea of wilderness can be experienced outside of these areas. 324 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 2: This is going to be the most boring part of 325 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 2: this podcast, but we've got to do it because you're 326 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: enrolled in the Bear Grease Academy. Here is an excerpt 327 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: from the Wilderness Act of nineteen sixty four. It's ridiculously boring, 328 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: but this is modern man's attempt to preserve wildness. I'm kidding, 329 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: it's really not that bad. 330 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: Here goes. 331 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: In order to assure that an increasing population accompanied by 332 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: expanding settlement and growing mechanization, does not occupy and modify 333 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: all areas within the United States and its possessions, leaving 334 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: no lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition. 335 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 2: It is hereby to be the policy of the Congress 336 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: to secure for the American people, the present and future generations, 337 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 2: the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness. For this purpose, 338 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: there is hereby established a National Wilderness Preservation System to 339 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: be composed of federally owned areas designated by Congress as 340 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: wilderness areas, and these shall be administered for the use 341 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: and enjoyment of the American people in such manner as 342 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 2: will leave them unimpaired for future use and enjoyment as wilderness. 343 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and 344 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: his works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an 345 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: area where the earth and its community of life are 346 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who 347 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined 348 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: to mean in this act an area of undeveloped federal 349 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: land retaining its primeval character and influence without permanent improvements 350 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: or human habitation which is protected and managed so as 351 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: to preserve its natural conditions, and which generally appears to 352 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 2: have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with 353 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable. It has outstanding 354 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: opportunities for solitude, or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation, 355 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 2: has at least five thousand acres of land, or is 356 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and 357 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: use in an unimpaired condition, and may also contain ecological, geological, 358 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historic value. 359 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 3: We're done. 360 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 2: Steve Vernella probably could have jazzed that writen up a 361 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 2: little bit, but that's pretty descriptive, but whole smokes. As 362 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,199 Speaker 2: There been some controversy around the definition of wilderness in 363 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: the last one hundred years. 364 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 3: We'll get to it. 365 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: But wilderness with the capitol W is the strictest, most 366 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: conservative land USIC designation in America. Today, there are eight 367 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: hundred and six federal wilderness areas that encompass over one 368 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: hundred and eleven million acres of land. That's larger than 369 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: the state of California. Wilderness encompasses about seventeen percent of 370 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: all public land, and about five percent of all American land. 371 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 3: Is federal wilderness. That's a lot of land. 372 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: I now want to redirect the conversation back to the 373 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: deep human history with wild lands. 374 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: This is a transition. 375 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: So here's doctor Flores talking about the time time before 376 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: these Greek poets, before agriculture and civilization, and when humans 377 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: were hunter gatherers. 378 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 4: I think that wilderness is a very recent idea in history. 379 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: Frankly, wait a minute, what we just said. 380 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: Wild lands are ancient, But what we now call wilderness, 381 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: raw land uninfluenced by man, is the oldest natural thing 382 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 2: there is. Yes, but the idea of designating it out 383 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: as something different, in calling it wilderness, is new. 384 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 4: Carry on, doc, I mean, I've spent a good deal 385 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 4: of time writing about why people migrated around the world 386 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 4: twenty five thirty thousand years ago, ultimately finding the Americas, 387 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 4: the last of the great continents on Earth that we 388 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 4: found and the reason we left Africa, went to Europe, 389 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 4: then went to Asia, and finally found our way into 390 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 4: North America and South America was essentially a search for 391 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 4: what the modern idea of wilderness implies we were looking 392 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 4: for places without prior human presence. And the reason we 393 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 4: were looking for places without prior human presence is because 394 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 4: of the ability of those places to harbor big animals 395 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 4: with no prior experience with humans as predators, and that 396 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 4: made them easy to hunt and to take down. And 397 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 4: so that search for a place out there in the 398 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 4: world where you were not finding human footprints, you weren't 399 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 4: finding campfires, you didn't see smoke from an encampment on 400 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 4: the horizon, but the world appeared to be pristine. That 401 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 4: was a very compelling thing that drew people around the world. 402 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 4: And so this whole idea of this without humans present, 403 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 4: it's probably a really ancient thing that goes back to 404 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 4: that sort of search for places with animals. 405 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: And I think it's even our experience inside of our 406 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: DNA somewhere to search something like that out. 407 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, is that a romantic stretch. 408 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 4: Well, it could be a romantic stretch to say it's 409 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 4: part of our genetic makeup, but I'm enough of romantic 410 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 4: to actually say that. I think if this is probably 411 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 4: intrinsic to who we are, that we instinctively find a 412 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 4: kind of a satisfaction and sometimes even a euphoria in 413 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 4: places that seem to harbor no signs of other people. 414 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 4: And it's a very ancient thing. 415 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: Well, when you think about humans today, not in wilderness 416 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: business people are looking for unexploited parts of society. Sure 417 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: there's something that you feel. You know, My good buddy 418 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: James Lawrence always says found a bird nest on the ground, 419 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: meaning like, wow, this is an incredible opportunity. I mean, really, 420 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: that's what humans have been looking for forever. 421 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a wonderful study somebody did in Io Wilson's 422 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 4: book The Biophilia Hypothesis about landscape art around the world, 423 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 4: and landscape art around the world tends to portray and 424 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 4: we tend to the observers of landscape art tend to 425 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 4: react most positively to representations of places that show trees 426 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 4: that don't appear to have been stripped of fruit, or 427 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 4: branches of undisturbed herds of animals that don't seem to 428 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 4: be reacting in alarm. And the argument in that particular 429 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 4: essay was that this is a replication of what we 430 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 4: were looking for as we were migrating around the planet. 431 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 4: We were looking for places that had evidence of us 432 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 4: being the first there, and it's that kind of sense. 433 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 4: I think that that powers this instinctive reaction about wilderness. 434 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: Designating wilderness is a new idea on planet Earth, but 435 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: it's an artifact from deep human history and doctor Fluores's 436 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: book Wild New World. He argues that a major factor 437 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: in early human migration was to find blank spots on 438 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: the map with unmolested animals easier to hunt. We were 439 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: biologically rewarded for finding the most humanless landscapes possible, and 440 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 2: that's been translated into our epigenetics. I had to google 441 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: what that term meant, but it's a change in the 442 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: way our genes work as influenced by our behaviors and environments. 443 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: So interaction with wild places didn't change our genes, but 444 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: it changes the way our body reads DNA sequences. We 445 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: developed a taste for places without humans, and we're biologically 446 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 2: rewarded for it. I cannot say if it's nature or nurture, 447 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: but I have felt that reward for most of my life. 448 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: I want to go to the wildest places. Did Gary 449 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: believernucom teach me that? And I adopted the doctrine that 450 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: was part of it? But then who taught him? It's 451 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 2: like looking in a mirror with a mirror behind you. 452 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 2: Here's doctor Flores on some info on Indigenous ideas on wilderness. 453 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 4: To be sure indigenous people occupying landscapes. So, for example, 454 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 4: in North America, after the pleacescene extinctions, after that first 455 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 4: fifteen thousand years of the human presence, once all the 456 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 4: many of the big charismatic animals are gone, there's this 457 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 4: ten thousand year period which I refer to in well 458 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 4: in the world as Native America, when people go for 459 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 4: ten thousand years in North America and managed to preserve 460 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 4: most of the biological diversity of the continent. By the 461 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 4: time Europeans arrived, that diversity is still present, still exists. 462 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 3: But I don't think, at least. 463 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 4: There's not any evidence from any of their cultures, their traditions, 464 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 4: or their stories that they looked on parts of North 465 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 4: America as wilderness places. I mean, they certainly would, for example, 466 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: go and seek out a particular butte or a mesa 467 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 4: in order to do a vision quest experience to look 468 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 4: for something that was that would direct their future actions, 469 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 4: or some ally in the world a wolf and elk 470 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 4: or something like that. But they didn't seek out what 471 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 4: many Europeans in the last five hundred years sought out 472 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 4: when they were trying to find wilderness. So that means 473 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 4: to me that wilderness is a relatively recent and unique phenomenon, 474 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 4: and it probably does come about as a result of 475 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 4: a reaction to emerging civilization. As civilization begans to particularly 476 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 4: spread across the Middle East and Western Europe and Asia, 477 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 4: there comes to be as so often as the case 478 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 4: in human affairs and appreciation for what's being lost, and 479 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 4: what's being lost are those lands where the human imprint 480 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 4: is not nearly as impressive. 481 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: Native Americans didn't have a word equivalent to the English 482 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: word wilderness. However, it's hard not to imagine that they 483 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 2: knew when they were in places far away from home, 484 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: a place they wouldn't stay, a place that was more 485 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 2: absent of human existence. Their worldview was vastly different from 486 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: the Europeans, but I still think they probably had that 487 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 2: fee that how Herring spoke about earlier. Doctor Flores also 488 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: said scarcity produces value. That's very important to the modern 489 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 2: conversation about wilderness. Here's doctor Sarah Dant. 490 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 5: So let me see if I can kind of put 491 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 5: this together in a way that makes sense. So one 492 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 5: of the things that we as almost as a species, 493 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 5: we're almost hardwired to find value in things that are rare. 494 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 5: And when we look first at the colonial experience, there's 495 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 5: a lot of wilderness and not much, you know, controlled land. Certainly, 496 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 5: you know, I don't want to use that word civilized 497 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 5: is pretty loaded, but you know, farming land, raising land, 498 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 5: managed lands, and so wilderness isn't valued, it's feared. But 499 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 5: as we transition from the nineteenth into the twentieth century, 500 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 5: there becomes this growing awareness that wait a minute, we're 501 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 5: about to cut all the trees down on build houses 502 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 5: in the last places. 503 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: Thank you, doctor Dant, and I'd like to officially transition 504 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: and call this next section the introduction to early American 505 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: doctrine on wilderness that produced our modern ideas about wilderness 506 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: that flows right off the tongue. Will now embark on 507 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: understanding on a more specific level, the flow that produced 508 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: the American worldview on wilderness. The seventeen and eighteen hundreds 509 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 2: were a romantic era in America in regards to wilderness. 510 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 2: Society had begun to move beyond the long standing fear 511 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 2: of desolate places, and it started to become trendy to 512 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 2: like them and guess where it all started in the 513 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: cities where literature and art were being digested. In seventeen 514 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: fifty seven, Edmun Burke wrote a peace Call, the Philosophical 515 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 2: Inquiry into the Origin of Our Ideas of the Sublime 516 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: and Beautiful. Roderick Nash would write that Burke expressed the 517 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 2: idea that terror and horror in regard to nature stemmed 518 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: from the exaltation all in delight, rather from dread and loathing. 519 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 3: This was a shift. 520 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: In the seventeen seventies, botanist and writer William Bartram would 521 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: take Burke's words sublime and use it extensively to describe 522 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: wild places. He'd write that God's wisdom and power were 523 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: manifested in wilderness. And Bartram was also the founding father 524 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: of Romantic primitivism, stating that man was content and at 525 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: his best in his primitive state inside of wilderness. 526 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 3: This was really trendy. 527 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 2: Man had fought to separate himself from wilderness for thousands 528 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 2: of years, and now that civilization had begun to conquer 529 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: it on a massive scale, we were going back to it, 530 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: but in smaller. 531 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 3: Doses, because we could still live in civilization. 532 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: Daniel Boone's first hand account of hunting in Kentucky in 533 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 2: seventeen eighty four, written by John Filson, was wildly philosophical 534 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: about the pleasures of wilderness and man's harmony in nature. 535 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 3: This was a new idea. 536 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 2: In eighteen eighteen, Estwick Evans wrote, how great are the 537 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 2: advantages of solitude? How sublime is the silence of nature's 538 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: ever acting energies. There is something in the very name 539 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 2: of wilderness which charms the ear and soothes the spirit 540 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 2: of man. 541 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 3: There is religion in it. End of quote. 542 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: We're beginning to hear strong spiritual vibes in the narrative. 543 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 3: And I know this is kind of boring. It's really 544 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 3: not as fascinating. 545 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 2: But we're in the bear grease academy, folks, so sucking 546 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 2: up buttercup. 547 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 3: So we move on. 548 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,399 Speaker 2: But I haven't told you the whole story of how 549 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 2: the Bible viewed wilderness. It was a howling, dangerous place, 550 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 2: a place you went to die, but it was also 551 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 2: the place that you might find God. Moses encountered the 552 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: burning bush and God's direct speaking in the wilderness. Elijah 553 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 2: heard the still small voice of God in the wilderness 554 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: and was fed by Ravens Jesus retreated to the wilderness 555 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: to pray, it's dangerous there but has potential of great reward. 556 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: American writers and thinkers began to focus on this. By 557 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: the eighteen forties, wilderness was very popular in literature, and 558 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: Roderick Nash would write the capacity to appreciate wilderness was, 559 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 2: in fact deemed one of the qualities of a gentleman. 560 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: Enjoyment of wilderness for them was a function of gentility. 561 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 2: I now want to go back to doctor Flores. 562 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 4: I would argue that one of the reasons, you know, so, 563 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 4: we start with the idea of wilderness very early. Then 564 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 4: the Romantic aid, which is when Thoreau is writing Walden 565 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 4: and writing in his journals and writing about, you know, 566 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 4: in wildness lies the preservation of the world, as he 567 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 4: writes it. I think early misapprehension of what North America was, 568 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 4: which downplayed the Indian presence. And then the Romantic movement 569 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 4: of the nineteenth century, which lasts from the eighteen twenties 570 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 4: to the eighteen eighties or so, which doesn't just produce 571 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 4: people like Threroaw, I mean, it produces many of our 572 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 4: great early American painters of wild lance Albert Berstett, Thomas Moran, 573 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 4: the Hudson Bay painters of State New York. Their conception 574 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 4: of what they were portraying in wild country was you 575 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 4: were getting to see the face of God. They were 576 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 4: all influenced by Christianity still, and their notion was wild 577 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 4: country was the last best expression of God's handiwork. And 578 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 4: so when you stood before a wh old landscape with 579 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 4: soaring mountain peaks or a waterfall, you were standing in 580 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 4: the presence. 581 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 3: Of the divine. 582 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 4: And that's one of the things that began to give 583 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 4: wilderness a kind of a sacred feeling, and almost began 584 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 4: to turn it into a kind of a religious pilgrimage 585 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 4: to particular places that preserve this idea of that God's 586 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 4: last great handiwork. And we're looking at this mountain range, 587 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 4: we're looking at the face of God. I mean, it's 588 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 4: the idea of what the Romantic is called the sublime, 589 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 4: and the sublime is a landscape that as you're standing 590 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 4: in front of it and looking at it, you're so 591 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 4: moved emotionally that you feel a kind of a religious almost. 592 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 2: A flight for the natural and the spiritual kind of overlap. 593 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 4: I over absolutely overlap and so the painters like Beerstott 594 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 4: and Moran and the Hudson River School, Thomas Cole and 595 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 4: people like that. That's why they were trying to portray. 596 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 4: They were trying to portray God's hand in nature. And 597 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 4: the people who sought out those places, like Threau climbing 598 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 4: Mount Todden in Maine and getting to the top and 599 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 4: saying contact, contact, I've finally come face to face with it. 600 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 4: That's what they're doing with this whole kind of pilgrimage 601 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 4: to wild places. 602 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 2: In the early eighteen hundreds, American artists began to paint wilderness, 603 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 2: which became a symbol of national identity. We didn't have 604 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 2: beautiful architecture in thousands of years of history like Europe, 605 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 2: but we had wild places. Wild Lands were becoming our 606 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 2: calling card, our Instagram bio. Hi, my name is America, 607 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 2: and we have wild places. Henry David Threau was born 608 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: in eighteen seventeen and inherited the momentum of Romantic primitivism. 609 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: By the age teen fifties, he was rocking and rolling 610 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: as one of America's leading voices for wilderness. But his 611 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 2: message cut deeper into the heart of humanity than did 612 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 2: this nationalism and primitivism. At a public speech in New 613 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 2: England in eighteen fifty one, he said, I wish to 614 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 2: speak a word for nature, for absolute freedom and wildness, 615 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 2: and he ended the speech by saying in wildness is 616 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: the preservation of the world. He was a transcendentalist and 617 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 2: believe man's connection to nature to essentially be the salvation 618 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 2: of his soul. 619 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 3: Man. 620 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 2: That was a lot of work, a lot of talking. 621 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 2: This is the Bear Grease Academy. We don't take weeks 622 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 2: off for pleasure and leisure. I'm the David Goggins of 623 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 2: the backwoods discipline of learning. 624 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 3: Who we are. 625 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 2: I'm interested in why I think what I think. I 626 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: just popped out of the womb in Montgomery County, Arkansas 627 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 2: and found myself immersed in a culture. And as Americans, 628 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 2: we value independence, but I think that's often deceptive for 629 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 2: how original our ideas actually are. 630 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 3: I wanted to ask. 631 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 2: Steve Ranella a question and it quickly turned into a 632 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 2: total train wreck. Here goes So throw was the original 633 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 2: guy in America that started talking about this stuff? Yeah, okay, 634 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 2: so okay, you may have answered my question with your 635 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 2: cynicism right there. He really was. He was he was 636 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 2: the architect in America. Oh, he had this deep do 637 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 2: wilderness effect on thought. You just said the same thing 638 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 2: as him. 639 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 3: But what I'm asking going my question is as Steve. 640 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: His pond by his Miles house was not what I 641 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: would call wilderness. 642 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 3: Okay, how much? How much would would he have affected you? 643 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 3: And you not even know it? None? I find that 644 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 3: really hard. 645 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: I could have fell from I could have fell from 646 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 1: outer space with my brain the way it came out 647 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: of my mother's womb. I could have fallen from outer space, 648 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 1: and I would have walked around the planet and mosied 649 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: around the planet, and I would have wound up saying 650 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: I like the north slope of the Brooks Range better 651 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 1: than that. 652 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,439 Speaker 3: Town over Yonder. I just would have ye, yes, I listen. 653 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: Had I never ever heard of throw and I'd be 654 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: just I almost wish that that was the case. Would 655 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: not change my view of whether or not I appreciate 656 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: wild animals in wild places. 657 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 3: I don't. At the most simple level, his thank. 658 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 2: You like crotchety old, I don't care, No, no, no, 659 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 2: I'm not. 660 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 3: It's that you would come and tell. 661 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: Me that I feel the way I do about wilderness 662 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: because I had to read throw and like freshman. 663 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 2: Year, I think, is you feel the way you do 664 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 2: about wilderness in part because you're an American man? 665 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 3: That escalated quickly. Two things. 666 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 2: Number One, it was a very ill worded question. I 667 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 2: shouldn't have even brought up the row. The roau arose 668 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 2: as an influential prophet for wilderness, but really what I 669 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 2: was trying to ask Stevie boy was how much has 670 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 2: been an American influenced your ideas on wilderness. Secondly, I 671 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 2: didn't know that the roau was such an emotional trigger 672 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 2: word for. 673 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 3: My distinguished guests. But let's carry on. 674 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 2: We're gonna start back with my ending statement from the 675 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 2: last clip. 676 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 3: This is embarrassing for both of us. 677 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 2: Is you feel the way you do about wilderness in 678 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 2: part because you're an American? 679 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: Because if you were, it is, oh yeah, you know, 680 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: I know those Canadians sure hate the stuff. Come on, well, 681 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: I feel the way I do about wilderness because I'm 682 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: like a hunter and trapper and fisher, and I'm a 683 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: student of wildlife. 684 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,799 Speaker 2: What I'm saying is other countries in the East, other 685 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 2: countries all over the globe, in different hemispheres and on 686 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 2: different continents, do not have a deep core foundational appreciation 687 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 2: of wild places like Americans do. 688 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:19,760 Speaker 3: They don't. 689 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 1: They might not, they might not have access to them. 690 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: Well they perhaps there's a little bit of a different 691 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,359 Speaker 1: perhaps there's a different cultural history, and that that's it. 692 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: You could you could find a lot of literary figures. 693 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: You can find a lot of literary figures and historical 694 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: figures that greatly predate your body. Throw who I'm not. 695 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:43,359 Speaker 1: I'm not even who appreciated wildlife of wild places. 696 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 3: No doubt, huge mistake to have brought up th Row. 697 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 2: Clearly he was not the architect I thought I was 698 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 2: being interviewed. 699 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 3: Go ahead. 700 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,239 Speaker 2: Where I was going with the question was are the 701 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 2: fundamental truths of wilderness so strong that you would have 702 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 2: come to these conclusions on your own, which you've emphatically 703 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 2: said yes you have, And I agree with that. 704 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 3: Like you you pop out of the womb and you 705 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:09,959 Speaker 3: know EO. 706 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,920 Speaker 2: Wilson's biophelia, like we have this innate love of life, 707 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 2: love of things that are alive, and this curiosity, and 708 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 2: that's part of what makes us so unique in our humanness, 709 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 2: is that we're interested in other stuff. But I think 710 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 2: there's a big component of the way that we think 711 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 2: about wild places that's deeply American. That's that is not 712 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 2: replicated in other places. I mean, we were the first 713 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 2: place on planet Earth that demarketed wilderness Federal Wilderness Area. 714 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: Sure, I'm a very very American person, even though I 715 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: was just saying if I fell from outer space, that 716 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: I came from my mother's womb and then fell from 717 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,600 Speaker 1: outer space. Of course I can't go in and unravel 718 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 1: what parts of me are American. But I think that 719 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: you're getting a little narrow to say that appreciation for 720 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: wilderness is an American phenomenon. 721 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 2: To Sha, doctor Ranella, to sha great point, and I 722 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,960 Speaker 2: agree with you. Americans do not have the market on 723 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 2: appreciation of or living in wild lands. That's the birthright 724 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:20,280 Speaker 2: of mankind. However, that peculiarity of American history that doctor 725 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 2: Flores talked about produced something that was unique in the 726 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 2: world for how we manage and think about wild places. 727 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 3: And I'm probably. 728 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,760 Speaker 2: Gonna name my next pack of squirrel dogs Henry, David 729 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,440 Speaker 2: and Thoreau just to aggravate Steve Ranella. 730 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,960 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but there's more. 731 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: I think that you will find among many cultures an 732 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,839 Speaker 1: insistence on wilderness. How can you say it's American? How 733 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: can you look at people who live in the headwaters 734 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: of the Amazon and tell me that an appreciation for 735 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: wilderness is American. Now they would say, they would say 736 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: they have an appreciation for their home. But I don't 737 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: want to get overly cute about these definitions. 738 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 2: Well, all I'm saying is that it appears that we 739 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,760 Speaker 2: have a unique perspective on wilderness. 740 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 3: Right or wrong. 741 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean again, you are saying that because I don't 742 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: know if you like watching nature documentaries, but you'll find 743 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: that when when you're watching those, you're not hearing a 744 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 1: lot of American accents. 745 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 3: You're hearing a. 746 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: Lot of Brits. Why do they so much? They love 747 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: it because they killed all of theirs, so they. 748 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 3: Look at it. It's very exactly, it's very other to them. 749 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: Right. 750 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,520 Speaker 3: Well, I mean that that's just you've proved what I'm saying. 751 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: No, I disprove what you're saying. You said it's American 752 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: to like wilderness. I think that that's not true. 753 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,839 Speaker 2: What I what Clay said in the question was Americans 754 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 2: have a unique perspective on wilderness that has produced something. 755 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,840 Speaker 2: And so you saying the English killed off all their animals. 756 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 2: Is exactly my point. Are our ideas and philosophy on 757 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,919 Speaker 2: wilderness have allowed it to be preserved at a high 758 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 2: level as compared to much of planet Earth. I agree 759 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,360 Speaker 2: with that, and I mean that's something that's something to 760 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 2: be proud of. As Steve always says, cynicism is the 761 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,879 Speaker 2: chastity of the intellect, and his contribution to this conversation 762 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 2: is noted, No, Americans aren't the only people who love wilderness, 763 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 2: but America has forged a pragmatic approach to wilderness that 764 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,839 Speaker 2: came from our peculiar history. I want to end by 765 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 2: asking how Herring why we love wilderness, why I love wilderness, 766 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,800 Speaker 2: and how much we've been influenced by our history. 767 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 3: Here's what he said. 768 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 6: First, I would say that you probably value wilderness harshly 769 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 6: by cultural for cultural reasons, but also you value wilderness 770 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 6: because you're an autonomous hunter and a person who values 771 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:14,040 Speaker 6: individual sovereignty and freedom, and so the feeling that you 772 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,839 Speaker 6: get there is probably independent of any kind of cultural 773 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 6: preparation you have. I think certain people, just like in 774 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 6: the old days, it would have been like somebody like 775 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 6: Jim Bridge, or you know, like Davy Crockett or Daniel Boone. 776 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 6: Certain people simply respond to the freedom of wilderness. They 777 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 6: always have and they probably always will. 778 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 3: I like it. 779 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 2: How that's an answer we can all understand. What we'll 780 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 2: hear next time is how the last fifty years of 781 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,720 Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds set us up for the conservation movement 782 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,320 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century. Don't worry, The Bear Grease Academy 783 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 2: of Backwoodsmanship, philosopher feet, and culture will start right where 784 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,279 Speaker 2: we've left off. I'm grateful for our heritage, and I'm 785 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,360 Speaker 2: interested in how when I arose to consciousness in this 786 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 2: mortal realm in nineteen seventy nine, that wild beasts and 787 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:19,480 Speaker 2: wild places still existed and were still accessible to the 788 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 2: common man like meat. I'm grateful for a father and 789 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,319 Speaker 2: a culture who took me to them and taught me 790 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,800 Speaker 2: to value them. I can't thank you enough for listening 791 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 2: to Bear Grease. Come on down to the Black Bear 792 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:37,719 Speaker 2: Bonanza in Bentonville, Arkansas, on March ninth, twenty twenty four, and. 793 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:38,520 Speaker 3: See Brent and I. 794 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,200 Speaker 2: Thanks for sharing Bear Grease with your pals, leaving us 795 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,320 Speaker 2: a review on iTunes, and I look forward to talking 796 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 2: with the folks on the Render next week,