Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Welcome to It could happen here, a
Speaker 1: show about things falling apart, and today the thing falling
Speaker 1: apart is the Internet. And today we have a special
Speaker 1: guest episode with Bridget Todd. Hello Bridget, So Garrett, it's.
Speaker 2: Kind of funny that we are talking just a few
Speaker 2: days after the Trump administration put out there Woke AI
Speaker 2: Executive Orderer.
Speaker 1: Yes, I have not read this yet. I have to
Speaker 1: for next week's executive Disorder. I'm not looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: I like that the Cool Zone team kind of sections
Speaker 2: off all the Trump federal nonsense so you don't have
Speaker 2: to be mired in it all the goddamn time.
Speaker 1: I still kind of am. I just schedule it throughout
Speaker 1: my week. I guess there's certain days where I have
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you gotta pepper it in. You gotta pepper it in.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, not to give you a spoiler for when
Speaker 2: you dive into it yourself, but it's all nonsense. Basically,
Speaker 2: the Trump administration is saying that right now, the biggest
Speaker 2: threat regarding AI is it being too woke and essentially
Speaker 2: telling folks who make AI tech leaders essentially to be
Speaker 2: more like Elon Musk and Grock and make sure that.
Speaker 3: Your AI models.
Speaker 2: The only AI models that we will accept in this
Speaker 2: country are the non woke ones, ones that don't incorporate
Speaker 2: DEI would love to know more about what he thinks
Speaker 2: that means, but that's a little preview for you.
Speaker 1: Fantastic, you know, seems like the most important issue facing
Speaker 1: our nation right now.
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2: And so it's funny that we're talking about AI because
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're on TikTok, but there have
Speaker 2: been these kind of shockingly racist AI generated videos all
Speaker 2: over TikTok, to the point where I would say that
Speaker 2: we are witnessing the revival of the minstrel Show using
Speaker 2: AI on social media. This is not a claim I
Speaker 2: use lightly. That is how extreme some of this content is.
Speaker 1: I'm not on TikTok, but I think I've seen some
Speaker 1: of this content permeate across platforms, certainly on like Instagram,
Speaker 1: reels and even even bits of X the Everything app.
Speaker 3: I love that you call it that. That's the full name.
Speaker 2: So for folks who don't know, I want to scram
Speaker 2: the conversation in what a minstrel show is. So the
Speaker 2: Minstrel Show was a incredibly popular form of American theater
Speaker 2: and entertainment in the nineteenth century, where mostly but not all,
Speaker 2: white performers would wear black face makeup to make themselves
Speaker 2: look like These exaggerated racist versions of black people and
Speaker 2: essentially portray very racist stereotypes of black folks being lazy buffoons.
Speaker 2: And a common trope in these skits was black people
Speaker 2: trying and failing to gain American citizenship because at the time,
Speaker 2: black Americans did not have full citizenship, and so a
Speaker 2: big plotline would be like, Oh, we had to take
Speaker 2: a test for citizenship, but we were too stupid to
Speaker 2: figure it out. Are we spaced the data and overslept
Speaker 2: because we're very lazy. When these shows would depict black women,
Speaker 2: we were often shown as what you might think up
Speaker 2: as like a sapphire caricature, which is rude, loud, malicious, stubborn,
Speaker 2: and overbearing, kind of like the angry black woman trope
Speaker 2: that you probably are familiar with in media today. So
Speaker 2: these skits were incredibly popular entertainment, but they also served
Speaker 2: the purpose of reaffirming political and social ideologies, and so
Speaker 2: you know, the dominant way that people consumed media regarding
Speaker 2: black people showed us as lazy, stupid, angry, loud, and
Speaker 2: importantly not really able to conform to the dominant culture
Speaker 2: of like mainstream, hardworking white Americans.
Speaker 3: That is obviously an incredibly.
Speaker 2: Powerful tool to uphold and reaffirm the idea that black
Speaker 2: folks should not be given full citizenship, should not be
Speaker 2: given full rights, cannot be you know, integrated into polite
Speaker 2: white society. And it almost kind of became this for
Speaker 2: their own good attitude that provided like a polite justification
Speaker 2: for things like segregation. Well like, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I've seen in minstrel shows that black folks are very
Speaker 2: lazy and stupid, So it's an as for their own
Speaker 2: good that we treat them like shit in society, do
Speaker 2: you feel me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a sort of like infantilization exactly.
Speaker 2: And so even though the minstrel show did die out,
Speaker 2: I would argue that we are kind of seeing a
Speaker 2: little bit of a comeback using AI in the digital realm,
Speaker 2: and just like the menstrual shows of.
Speaker 3: Yesteryear, we're used to affirm.
Speaker 2: Political and social ideologies under the guise of just being
Speaker 2: entertainment or just being jokes or just being funny. I
Speaker 2: really think it's not a coincidence that we're also seeing
Speaker 2: the rise of digital blackface, where non black creators are
Speaker 2: using AI to create these viral racist skits that are
Speaker 2: steeped in black stereotypes, and that they're really taking off
Speaker 2: all over social media today.
Speaker 1: That sounds not fun to hear about, but I'm excited
Speaker 1: for you to explain it to me.
Speaker 2: Yes, So I will say, initially, the first iteration of
Speaker 2: one of these videos that I saw was not really racist.
Speaker 2: It was made by a black creator, I think, trying
Speaker 2: to use AI to create sort of humorous skits. But
Speaker 2: when that first video took off, people on TikTok started
Speaker 2: using AI to create more and more extreme, more and
Speaker 2: more racist iterations of these kinds of videos, which is
Speaker 2: what we're seeing today. So I will play a little
Speaker 2: snippet of an example for you.
Speaker 3: What's up, bitch?
Speaker 2: Is this Bigfoot one hand the baddest bitch in the woods?
Speaker 3: Part time cryptic, full time problem. Don't follow me if
Speaker 3: you scared a please.
Speaker 2: So this is a TikTok that got over two million views,
Speaker 2: and it basically it uses AI to generate this black
Speaker 2: woman stereotypical version of Bigfoot, and this account is so
Speaker 2: popular that has generated so many copycats, like this is
Speaker 2: a format that has really hit with TikTok.
Speaker 3: There also is another kind of bucket of.
Speaker 2: These that people call slave talk, where it uses AI
Speaker 2: to sort of reimagine enslaved people on plantations if they
Speaker 2: had social media and we're doing vlogs and so a
Speaker 2: lot of those videos were taken down by TikTok, which
Speaker 2: is I think good, but essentially it would reimagine these
Speaker 2: AI in generated enslaved people basically saying like, oh, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do have to work out here in the cotton fields,
Speaker 2: but at least I'm gonna get meals. At least I
Speaker 2: have a roof over my head, essentially really affirming the
Speaker 2: idea that, like slavery, wasn't that bad.
Speaker 3: One of the more heinous.
Speaker 2: Examples that I saw of these that was removed from
Speaker 2: TikTok was a TikTok shop sponsored video that showed an
Speaker 2: AI generated enslaved person working in the fields wearing a
Speaker 2: solar powered hat with a sand in it, and basically
Speaker 2: he was like, Oh, this work in the field would
Speaker 2: be so horrible if I did not have this hat.
Speaker 2: And then there's a little link to the TikTok shop
Speaker 2: and you can buy the actual hat, which is.
Speaker 3: Just some really dystopian awful shit.
Speaker 1: No, that is like quite literally it's like evocative of
Speaker 1: like cyberpunk tropes that people I would assume would not
Speaker 1: want to use due to fears of insensitivity. But it's
Speaker 1: just on your phone like as like a real thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I completely agree, and I love that comparison.
Speaker 2: And I think, like I would imagine if I were
Speaker 2: running a TikTok shop that using the AI generated image
Speaker 2: of an enslaved person, I would think like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: this is certainly not something that I would use to
Speaker 2: like sell some cheap fan hat.
Speaker 3: But I mean, I think it is exactly what you're
Speaker 3: saying that.
Speaker 2: I think that the extreme quality of these videos, people
Speaker 2: are just like, well, it'll get views and then I'll
Speaker 2: get more eyeballs on my TikTok shop.
Speaker 3: I don't think there's any kind.
Speaker 1: Of sure Yeah, no, it's a very gross way of
Speaker 1: doing like outrage farming for engagement. I guess, like because
Speaker 1: like surely they know that these are not going to
Speaker 1: like go over easy. Like I think a part of
Speaker 1: part of this is generating some degree of like attention
Speaker 1: based on it being offensive or extremely gross and knowing
Speaker 1: that people will like comment things of that nature.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: And it's funny that you mentioned that, because the AI
Speaker 2: component of this is sort of what makes this novel
Speaker 2: and new. But that kind of thing has been all
Speaker 2: over our social media for the longest time. Sure, I
Speaker 2: remember how big stuff like skit culture was on TikTok.
Speaker 2: And I don't mean skits like Saturday Night Live or Portlandia.
Speaker 2: I mean skits where they are trying to get you
Speaker 2: to think this is somebody's cell phone footage of something
Speaker 2: that happened, but really it's like, well that.
Speaker 3: Those are two actors.
Speaker 2: And there was a type of these skits that would
Speaker 2: really take off on TikTok, where it was purporting to
Speaker 2: be oh, this is a parent who is going off
Speaker 2: on a trans teacher for trying to indoctrinate their kid,
Speaker 2: and all the comments would be like good for them,
Speaker 2: good for that mom, And then the screen flips and
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, well, the woman you were just telling
Speaker 2: me is the trans teacher, Now she's the mom who.
Speaker 3: Was the next video, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: No, I like the ones that are set on airplanes
Speaker 1: where they all use the same airplane set, Yes, and
Speaker 1: they get into like fake fights on airplanes using the
Speaker 1: same like five actors playing different roles.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then if.
Speaker 2: You look carefully in the background, you start thinking, well,
Speaker 2: airplanes don't have those strip led lights that you can
Speaker 2: buy on Amazon.
Speaker 3: Does actually sme the TikTok lights and the hallways like
Speaker 3: five feet wide?
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And listen, I am not above getting taken
Speaker 2: in by those kinds of skits. And I guess I
Speaker 2: don't love the idea that someone would be dedicating energy
Speaker 2: and brain space to getting upset about a set of
Speaker 2: circumstances that never really happened.
Speaker 1: But it's the Internet. Come on, that's that's like, that's
Speaker 1: half of the Internet. Yes, you know, I don't love it.
Speaker 2: But when the stakes so like when the stakes are
Speaker 2: low and it's just like a random fight on an airplane, fine,
Speaker 2: when the stakes are higher and it's like, this is
Speaker 2: a skit meant to like attack or demonize trans people,
Speaker 2: queer people, black people, that's where I'm like, well, what
Speaker 2: are we really doing here?
Speaker 3: I think whether or not this.
Speaker 2: Kind of content, like when it's AI generated, we're looking
Speaker 2: at things that never actually happened, even though these these
Speaker 2: circumstances in these situations never really happened, they still very
Speaker 2: much affirm the worldview of the people who are consuming it, right,
Speaker 2: And so if you are consuming a skit involving whether
Speaker 2: it's human actors or AI generated black people, if that
Speaker 2: skit reaffirms your worldview that these people cannot be trusted,
Speaker 2: these people are bad in some way, it kind of
Speaker 2: doesn't matter if it's real.
Speaker 3: Or not, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: That's like the concept of like hyperreality, where you're trying
Speaker 1: to like blend the Internet's exaggerated version of reality with
Speaker 1: our physical lived existence, and how these things start combining
Speaker 1: in to each other to create this idea of reality
Speaker 1: in our heads that's more real than it actually is,
Speaker 1: to the point where we take things on the screen
Speaker 1: to be more accurately reflective of what's going on in
Speaker 1: the world than what we actually experience in our day
Speaker 1: to day lives. And so much of that concept is
Speaker 1: what drives like American like reactionary politics exactly.
Speaker 2: And when you actually go into the comments of these videos,
Speaker 2: which in my opinion are very clearly AI generated, people
Speaker 2: don't even comments well, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, well, I mean that easy for you to say
Speaker 1: someone who spends their time like researching what's going on
Speaker 1: on the internet.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if Mema and Pop are finding.
Speaker 1: These videos, they're gonna be like, well, this one's obviously
Speaker 1: AI generated.
Speaker 2: No, And that's my point is like, I don't even
Speaker 2: think they're thinking about it that way, and I don't
Speaker 2: think they care that it's not really In the comments
Speaker 2: of these videos, It'll be a video, an AI generated
Speaker 2: video of a black woman behaving in this very stereotypical
Speaker 2: racist way, and the comments will say they're all like that,
Speaker 2: and it kind of misses the point of like, well, there's.
Speaker 3: No they in this video because it's AI generated. This
Speaker 3: is just a computer puppet. This isn't real. Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I completely agree.
Speaker 2: But I think when you see something online, whether it's
Speaker 2: obviously AI generated or not, if it reaffirms your worldview,
Speaker 2: it kind of doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: It's the same reason why when there's.
Speaker 2: Like four legged veterans in AI slop holding a sign
Speaker 2: that says everyone forgot about me, wish me happy birthday.
Speaker 3: Three billion likes on Facebook.
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think is going on there?
Speaker 2: I find that so fascinating.
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it isn't just the simple reaffirming of someone's
Speaker 1: previously held view people are very receptive to. And we
Speaker 1: even see this with like you know, with like fake
Speaker 1: news headlines, right, and people might point out that this
Speaker 1: story isn't isn't actually real. And when people are confronted
Speaker 1: with this idea of that they've been tricked by unreality,
Speaker 1: they'll be like, no, maybe this one isn't real, but
Speaker 1: it could be real. And that's what really matters is
Speaker 1: that this this feels true, not that it is true,
Speaker 1: but the fact that I feel it resonating is actually
Speaker 1: more important than any kind of physical trueness out inside,
Speaker 1: like the flesh world like that. That is honestly that
Speaker 1: that matters far less than how it impacts how I
Speaker 1: feel and how it reflects the world as I see it.
Speaker 2: So I did an episode of my podcast or oar
Speaker 2: norgles on the Internet, all about the sort of weird
Speaker 2: economy of AI generated disinformation, essentially fan fiction that came
Speaker 2: out of the trial of Sean P.
Speaker 3: Diddy. Come oh, that sounds incredibly upsetting.
Speaker 2: It was so upsetting, and the reason I looked into
Speaker 2: it is because I have to be honest and say,
Speaker 2: one of these AI generated videos got me, right. It
Speaker 2: was a video that claimed that the late musician Prince
Speaker 2: was able to testify in Ditty's trial from the Beyond
Speaker 2: the Grave and that they played a video that Prince
Speaker 2: made warning everybody that Didty is this bad guy?
Speaker 3: Right. I am probably the world's biggest Prince fans.
Speaker 2: While I was like Prince always like, it got me
Speaker 2: and get.
Speaker 3: Totally affirmed what I want to be true.
Speaker 2: But it was all a lie.
Speaker 1: It's compelling, it's trying to like, it's trying to impact
Speaker 1: you emotionally, especially for people who who like Prince, who
Speaker 1: who miss miss prints. This could be emotionally compelling, and like,
Speaker 1: that's that's what they're like intentionally going after. I think
Speaker 1: that's that's why something like that could work so well.
Speaker 3: It got me.
Speaker 2: And when I looked into kind of how these videos
Speaker 2: are cranked out on YouTube, so basically any celebrity that
Speaker 2: you can imagine there is an AI generated video on
Speaker 2: YouTube saying that they were somehow involved in the Diddy trial.
Speaker 2: And what's so interesting is in the comments of these
Speaker 2: videos that are again pretty obviously AI generated or not real,
Speaker 2: and even the description of the YouTube account will say
Speaker 2: this is just for entertainment. Nothing here is supposed to
Speaker 2: be true. People won't read that part. Basically, if you've
Speaker 2: ever had a bad feeling about a celebrity, which who
Speaker 2: hasn't totally see there's a video that a with that
Speaker 2: worldview that is like, well did you know they were
Speaker 2: involved in the ditty pre cops?
Speaker 3: And everybody's like, I knew it.
Speaker 1: That person always gave me the ac if fine, I
Speaker 1: knew it. I was smart enough to pick it up.
Speaker 1: Not everyone else was smart enough, but I was. And
Speaker 1: that's that's a whole other emotional feeling that it's being
Speaker 1: targeted by these like AI slop creators where they're trying
Speaker 1: to get like affirm people's like like narcissism about their
Speaker 1: ability to judge the moral character of strangers.
Speaker 2: That is so it because the people, the celebrities they choose,
Speaker 2: it's people that maybe you would have like, I have
Speaker 2: no real reason for this, but I hate Kevin Hart
Speaker 2: and so in the videos. Don't even ask me why.
Speaker 2: I don't even have a real reason. I just don't
Speaker 2: like him. Well, he is short, he is short. There
Speaker 2: you go love to my short Kings. One of the
Speaker 2: reasons I don't like him. This is just me spec
Speaker 2: like he just does a lot of ads and you
Speaker 2: can't get on social media without his cryptocurrency ad, his
Speaker 2: draft Kings ad.
Speaker 3: I just like hate seeing it short Yeah.
Speaker 2: In the AI generated video claiming that he was mixed
Speaker 2: up in the Diddy Trials, every comments like I knew it.
Speaker 2: I always hated him, And that's affirming people like feeling
Speaker 2: like they knew something that other people didn't see, and
Speaker 2: they knew it early on.
Speaker 1: Well, And I think what's something that's similar to this
Speaker 1: that's happening right now is there's a massive media campaign
Speaker 1: right now against Pedro Pascal with with AI generated videos
Speaker 1: of him like touching his female co stars, and these
Speaker 1: these videos have been have been digitally altered, and it's
Speaker 1: in service of this this big harassment campaign against someone
Speaker 1: who's like very vocally Protrance writes, there's other possible reasons
Speaker 1: for why he's he's being targeted by these videos, but no, Similarly,
Speaker 1: it's trying to create this like ick around Patri Pascal
Speaker 1: using AI altered media, and it's it's gaining a lot
Speaker 1: of traction right now, and it's something that people need
Speaker 1: to be like very very cautious of. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: trying to affirm whatever. Maybe you, for some reason have
Speaker 1: never liked Patro Pascal. I can't imagine why. But if
Speaker 1: you find a video like this talking about how how
Speaker 1: he's using a social anxiety diagnosis to inappropriately touch his.
Speaker 3: Co stars, like I knew it. I knew it.
Speaker 1: I never trusted Pedro Pascal and I don't like it.
Speaker 1: He's pro trans writes, and you're like, there you go.
Speaker 1: They've completely got you. They've been able to like automate
Speaker 1: and monetize internet hate campaigns against people that you don't know.
Speaker 2: Gerrett, Literally, right before you and I got on this episode,
Speaker 2: I saw a video on Reddit and it's a it's
Speaker 2: a scene from an episode of Always Sonny where one
Speaker 2: of the guys is like essentially lifting d the female
Speaker 2: lead up by her crotch, and the caption was Pedro
Speaker 2: Pascal when he feels anxiety next to me, you got
Speaker 2: a co star? And I remember thinking, like, this is
Speaker 2: such a weird fucking video. But what corner of the
Speaker 2: Internet have I wandered into?
Speaker 3: But I didn't. I did not know that there.
Speaker 2: Are horses trying to make me get the ick about
Speaker 2: Pedro Pascal Coincidentally, he is someone who speaks up for
Speaker 2: LGBTQ wrights, you know, progressive causes.
Speaker 3: Of course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's it's it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: huge thing swooping the internet right now.
Speaker 2: And I think it really goes to show how so
Speaker 2: kind of easily we can be manipulated using digital content,
Speaker 2: whether it's AI generated or AI manipulated or not. Like
Speaker 2: our understandings of the sort of general temperature of what's
Speaker 2: going on are so so much more tenuous than we think,
Speaker 2: and so much more easily manipulated than we realize.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, no one is immune to propaganda. That is
Speaker 1: a great way of putting it.
Speaker 2: I'm happy that you used the word propaganda, because that's
Speaker 2: what I really do think these AI generated, essentially menstrual
Speaker 2: show videos are. I think it's not a surprise that
Speaker 2: we are seeing them the same way that back in
Speaker 2: the day, minstrel shows were very popular at a time
Speaker 2: when there was an active campaign of attacking black folks
Speaker 2: and saying they weren't smart enough and did not deserve
Speaker 2: full citizenship, did not deserve rights. All of that I
Speaker 2: think we're basically seeing the same thing today. I think
Speaker 2: the rise of popularity of this kind of content is
Speaker 2: against the backdrop of a very real attack on marginalized
Speaker 2: people from this administration. You know, there was just this
Speaker 2: very medipiece and ProPublica about how Trump and Musk their
Speaker 2: goage stuff really was an attack on black women, specifically,
Speaker 2: like black women with stable federal jobs totally, and that
Speaker 2: these attacks essentially it was like you were able to
Speaker 2: smear black women career civil servants as you know, they
Speaker 2: were DEI hires, they were undeserving of these jobs, they
Speaker 2: really just deserved to be fired. And you know, really
Speaker 2: black women just became these easy targets for an administration
Speaker 2: hostile to marginalized people. So if we have all of
Speaker 2: that happening against the rise of this form of digital
Speaker 2: media that is using AI to reaffirm these stereotypes about
Speaker 2: black women that we aren't able to behave ourselves in
Speaker 2: polite society, cannot figure out a way to solve conflicts
Speaker 2: without resorting to violence, are loud and obnoxious. Then when
Speaker 2: you hear about real life human black women getting pushed
Speaker 2: out of their employment or attacked by this administration, you
Speaker 2: might think, well, maybe it's for the best because they're
Speaker 2: not suited for that work anyway, because the kind of
Speaker 2: content that I have been consuming on TikTok, and I
Speaker 2: think it just reaffirms this world of view that real
Speaker 2: life human black folks are not self actualized human beings.
Speaker 2: We're just a collection of tropes and stereotypes and caricatures.
Speaker 3: I don't know what to say there, but I agree, yes, And.
Speaker 2: I do think there's a kind of platform accountability question and.
Speaker 3: All this because oh, most certainly. Yeah, Like, the.
Speaker 2: Reason why we're seeing the rise of these videos is
Speaker 2: because of the recent introduction of Google's VO three creator.
Speaker 3: It came out about a.
Speaker 2: Month ago and it's Google's latest AI video generation model,
Speaker 2: and essentially it's designed to create these realistic looking videos
Speaker 2: from text prompts. And the thing that kind of makes
Speaker 2: it a step above is that you can incorporate things
Speaker 2: like synchronized audio, dialogue, sound effects, me music. It is
Speaker 2: really taken off with creators online who are using this
Speaker 2: tool to create everything from.
Speaker 3: These AI skits to AI influencers to AI muck.
Speaker 2: Bangs you know where people eat tons and tons of food.
Speaker 3: Oh, this is so upsetting it is.
Speaker 2: And then like another kind of offshoot of this is
Speaker 2: you have people who use VO three to make content
Speaker 2: like this and they get tons of use and then
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, if you want to learn how to
Speaker 2: make this yourself, pay me and I'll teach you how
Speaker 2: to do it too. So it's like there's always a
Speaker 2: weird like MLM grift in there somewhere.
Speaker 1: That is the content creator classics, like a mid tier influencer.
Speaker 1: We're not like that good at what they do, but
Speaker 1: is able to supplement their income by offering courses to
Speaker 1: people to teach them how to make similarly some subpar content.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that we've reached the full AI automation
Speaker 1: aspect of this, right is this used to be a
Speaker 1: big thing among like YouTubers. I was not aware that
Speaker 1: this is now a thing among like AI TikTok influencers,
Speaker 1: But that makes sense because this is like the easiest
Speaker 1: thing to automate, So of course there's going to be
Speaker 1: like an influx of people trying to make a quick
Speaker 1: buck on racist AI slop.
Speaker 2: It makes me so sad, and I do think, I
Speaker 2: mean when I guess I would be curious how Google
Speaker 2: feels about the fact that like this is what their.
Speaker 3: Tool is being used for.
Speaker 2: Right, I wonder like if leaders have a sense that
Speaker 2: this is harmful, not just harmful to black women like
Speaker 2: me who are depicted in this kind of content, but
Speaker 2: harmful for the Internet as a whole. It makes the
Speaker 2: Internet experience worse for everybody. And I guess, I guess
Speaker 2: I would imagine that like Google probably doesn't care that
Speaker 2: this is what their their technology is being used for.
Speaker 2: Like if I had a direct line to some Darbachi,
Speaker 2: the head of Google, I would show him these clips
Speaker 2: and say, like, is this what you had in mind
Speaker 2: for Vo three or is this a misuse of this
Speaker 2: tool that you just put out and unleashed on all
Speaker 2: of us?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And are you going to dedicate some like millions
Speaker 1: of dollars of research into stopping this from happening? No,
Speaker 1: of course not, Like they're not going to build comprehensive
Speaker 1: tools that prevent platform abuse like this, Like that's not
Speaker 1: going to happen as long as people are using it,
Speaker 1: and then people are hearing about it and it's spreading,
Speaker 1: Like that's that's what they want. If there happens to
Speaker 1: be offensive use cases of it. If anything, That's good
Speaker 1: because that drives engagement. It gets people to know about
Speaker 1: the product.
Speaker 2: And I think that's another one of the reasons why
Speaker 2: Trump's you know, executive orders on AI.
Speaker 3: That we saw early AI.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I will be the first person to
Speaker 2: admit that we have very deep problems when it comes
Speaker 2: to AI. Anybody who listens to Better Offline knows this, Like,
Speaker 2: this is not a secret.
Speaker 3: AI is often biased.
Speaker 2: AI is often wrong because it is trained on us
Speaker 2: humans the bias little bucks that we are right, and
Speaker 2: so that shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. I also
Speaker 2: will say, like, some of the solutions of how we
Speaker 2: fix that are complex and not super simple.
Speaker 3: But with Trump's executive order, he basically is.
Speaker 2: Signing an order saying all AI must be objective, it
Speaker 2: must adhere to the objective truth.
Speaker 3: Of the United States. And it's like, well, who determines that?
Speaker 1: Who who determines the objective truth of the United States?
Speaker 3: The President?
Speaker 2: I mean, if you ask Trump, yes, him, And I
Speaker 2: guess that's the thing that pisses me off is that
Speaker 2: there actually are complex issues and problems when it comes
Speaker 2: to AI. But this executive order just is like, oh,
Speaker 2: the problem is is that it's woke. The solution is
Speaker 2: me signing an executive order saying no woke in AI,
Speaker 2: and rather than getting any kind of actual solution or
Speaker 2: having the conversation, we just get fucking nonsense.
Speaker 1: You know, it is worrying for multiple levels, including the
Speaker 1: fact that the president thinks he's the orbiter of objective
Speaker 1: truth and it thinks he can legislate that or thinks
Speaker 1: he can executive order that into being by either you know,
Speaker 1: benefiting or punishing tech companies who follow his policies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a spoiler alert for that executive order.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what he saying. And you know you used
Speaker 2: the word propaganda earlier, and that really is if there
Speaker 2: was like a thesis statement of what I wanted to
Speaker 2: say in this episode, is that that is exactly what I.
Speaker 3: Think is going on here.
Speaker 2: It really does remind me of minstrel shows because even
Speaker 2: though minstrel shows back in the nineteenth century were this
Speaker 2: popular form of entertainment, it also was an entire manufacturing
Speaker 2: enterprise where people made very good money selling racist blackface
Speaker 2: figurines as novelties and all of that. David Pilgrim, the
Speaker 2: founder of the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at
Speaker 2: Farris State University in Michigan put it like this, They
Speaker 2: were everyday objects which portrayed black people as ugly different
Speaker 2: and fun to laugh at. They were, in a word, propaganda,
Speaker 2: And I think that's exactly what's going on here, Like
Speaker 2: people like to think about racism as if it's just
Speaker 2: this thing that hangs in the air, as opposed to
Speaker 2: a system that specific people are personally and intentionally perpetuating
Speaker 2: because they are cashing in on it.
Speaker 3: I don't see how Google letting.
Speaker 2: Creators use their tools to create content like this is
Speaker 2: any different, Like, yeah, it's that is exactly what's going
Speaker 2: on in my.
Speaker 1: Book, that's flatly like that's just like one to one,
Speaker 1: Like you're using tech to create like unreal depictions of
Speaker 1: racist chriacatures, to please audiences, to reaffirm their own their
Speaker 1: own biases, to reform their own racism, and you're monetizing
Speaker 1: it and you're automating it to create hashtag viral moments
Speaker 1: Like it's it's the most explicit and like gross blatant
Speaker 1: form of this that I've like seen, Like I think
Speaker 1: Robert a few years ago reported on people using AI
Speaker 1: to like make like you know, like true crime videos
Speaker 1: of like like like animating like victims of crimes or
Speaker 1: like like murder victims and talking about how they were
Speaker 1: killed or something, which is very gross and very very disgusting.
Speaker 1: But this sort of like organized like like racist video
Speaker 1: propaganda stuff can lead to a lot more like actual,
Speaker 1: like real world damage.
Speaker 2: I completely agree. I mean those true crime videos, I
Speaker 2: remember that. Imagine if your kid was murdered and then no.
Speaker 3: It's so gross.
Speaker 2: Twenty years later someone is like, oh, I've made an
Speaker 2: AI depiction of your murdered child telling their story.
Speaker 1: No, yeah, it's it's evil. But I think the damage
Speaker 1: that can do is is kind of limited. The damage
Speaker 1: that this whole altered reality where racism can get affirmed
Speaker 1: leads to I think a lot more actual, likely political
Speaker 1: and personal consequences.
Speaker 3: Completely agree.
Speaker 2: And I also think just taking a step back in
Speaker 2: the conversation about AI, we're all being told how the
Speaker 2: proliferation of AI is going to be the lynchpin of
Speaker 2: our economy. It's so important, it's going to change everything,
Speaker 2: and then you actually look at some of these use
Speaker 2: cases that are taking off, and it's like, well, was
Speaker 2: this really worth all the fucking climate degradation to make
Speaker 2: this racist AI version of a Bigfoot that looks like
Speaker 2: a black woman.
Speaker 1: No more rainforest, but at least we get racist bigfoot.
Speaker 1: So oh my god, it well get it. I think
Speaker 1: that's a good place to end. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for letting me rant at you about this. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Where else can people find your work? Bridget Well?
Speaker 2: You can listen to my podcast There Are No Girls
Speaker 2: on the Internet. You can listen to my other podcasts
Speaker 2: with Mozilla Foundation about ethics in AI called IRL, and.
Speaker 3: You can find me on Instagram at bridget Marine DC. Fantastic,
Speaker 3: Oh the Internet. It Could Happen Here is a production
Speaker 3: of cool Zone Media.
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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.