1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: for tuning in. We've got a shout out to our 4 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: super producer, mister Max white Pants Williams. 5 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 2: Actually I'm on Brieft right now. 6 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 3: Oh no, boy, Well can we only see your upper 7 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 3: body here in this zoom video? Yeah? 8 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're we're audio family show. So the only 9 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: nudity here is emotional and we're so glad he joined us. 10 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: I am Ben Bullen joined us always with the one 11 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: and only the man with the legend, mister Noel. 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 3: Brown and legend. 13 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 4: That's the kind of thing. 14 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's it? What's a geig economy? So what's your 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: what's your pants situation? No, before HR gets mad at 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: me for asking. 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: My pants are HR approved. I'm wearing a bit of 18 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 3: a gene, a dark gene. They're kind of new, so 19 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 3: they're a little stiff, but I'm liking them. I'm breaking 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: them in. 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: You're a gene guy, you're a deniman. 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: I'm aneman. But would you say that we are going 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: forth into the breach? Yes today, yes, breach do some 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: breaching unbreaching. 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 4: Perhaps there we go. 26 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: It's time to breach a to breach and broach a 27 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: subject that we set up earlier this week with some 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: lovely help from our research associate for this episode, mister 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: Max Williams, you might have looked at childhood pictures of 30 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: many historical figures, especially in the anglosphere, in Western Europe, 31 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: in North America and Canada and so on, and you 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: might have said, whole why is this really well known 33 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: influential dude as a child, Why do they appear to 34 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: be wearing a dress? Today's episode is the episode wherein 35 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: we conclusively answer that question. 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 4: It's true, it's true. 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: We also do have already in the back catalog an 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: entire episode about kids wearing pants and the idea of 39 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 3: you know, short short pants and breeches and all of 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 3: that good stuff. But we're really gonna go this is 41 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: going to be sort of a sister episode to that 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: one in many ways. And Natasha Frost over at Atlas 43 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 3: Obscura points out delightfully and a little missive involving a 44 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: gentleman by the name of John Neil who was an 45 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 3: eighteenth century resident of post Revolutionary War America, and he 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: remembers the day that he and his twin sister were 47 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 3: parted torn a sunder is the phrase that she but 48 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 3: here here's his remembrance. They put me into jacket and trousers, 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 3: he wrote in seventeen ninety five. And he gathered up 50 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: his call from the article, gathered up his collection of 51 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: petticoats and flung them over to his sister. And he 52 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 3: basically was gifting these to his sister. And being twins, 53 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 3: we had always been alike, he says, till then, but 54 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: from that time forward, I was the manchild and she 55 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: poor thing only sissy, which was something very different back then. 56 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: Just so true, it's very true. And then only forced 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 3: to wear petticoats. 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've seen it. This is 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: for the parents, the teachers in the audience today. You 60 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: see it all around the world pretty much. Most Western 61 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: children start wearing some form of pants, pantaloon, trousers, breeches, 62 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: breches at an early age. And this is quite expensive 63 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: when the kids growing up, you know, you have to 64 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: buy this, get new pants every. 65 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 4: Time, to be tailored too. 66 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 3: I mean, this is not off the rack kind of 67 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: stuff back in those days, and this was you know, 68 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: celebrated as a sort of coming of age, you know, 69 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: a lot like a bar mitzvrs. 70 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, and so this is what our palmac 71 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: sees as a nightmare fuel tradition. You tell us what 72 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: you think, folks, You're absolutely right. No, this was seen 73 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: as an early rite of passage. You are no longer 74 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: an infant, you are a full on child. I love 75 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: that you mentioned Natasha Frost from that Atlas Obscure article 76 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: which does great work on this. Frost dates this back 77 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: to the United Kingdom in the middle of the sixteenth 78 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: century and says that when early migrants from Europe came 79 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: over to North America, they brought this custom with them, 80 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: the custom of celebrating this evolution of a child's life, 81 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: this passage of time. You don't see this breaching ceremony 82 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: almost at all in the early twentieth century and going forward, 83 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: primarily because laundry technology improved, which I know is how 84 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: it is ridiculous and a little bit silly, but people 85 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: used to be pretty. 86 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: Dirty, sure, and you know, having a child of self 87 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 3: soiling age wearing custom tailored pantaloons could have posed a 88 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: laundry conundrum, right, And once you know, we were able 89 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: to use better chemicals and technologies to desoil garments. It 90 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: became a little bit less of an issue. 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a little bit, you know, and shout out 92 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: to everybody who is concerned about the environment and using 93 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: cloth diapers. 94 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: We know, we know, we know. 95 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: It's a rough gig, folks, But look, humans are the 96 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: same back then as they are today. For centuries and centuries, 97 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: people thought of pants as more than just clothing. It 98 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: was symbolic. It represented a transformation. It was a statement. 99 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: And this sounds weird, it probably hasn't aged well, but 100 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,119 Speaker 1: back in the day, giving the kid pants was seen 101 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: as assigning a kind of gender role in society. Because 102 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: now now you can climb trees, you can do all 103 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: the Huckleberry Finn Tom Sawyer stuff. 104 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 3: Right, paint fences, there are trick people to paint them 105 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: for you. It's you know, the origin is surely of 106 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: the expression, you know, wearing the pants in the family, 107 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 3: the idea of this representing a masculine leadership role and 108 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: sort of being in charge, you know, being the head 109 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: hot show. 110 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: Before this pants ritual, all small children would wear long 111 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: dresses comparable in some ways to the modern hospital gown, 112 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: except it was nighty. Perhaps yeah, like moo moo and 113 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: a shift, if you will. And a lot of times 114 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: when families were not royalty and they had a lot 115 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: of children, these pieces of clothing were purposely made to 116 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: be sort of one size fits all. You pass it 117 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: down to the next kid, and so on and so 118 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: on and so on. And of course more well to 119 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: do families had the flex they had to have fancy 120 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 1: dresses for their children. 121 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and even you know, after passing into 122 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: that manhood kind of role and being breached oftentimes, you know, 123 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: folks in this era of history would still wear what 124 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: are called dressing gowns, you know, for bed, Like you 125 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: think of old Ebenezer Scrooge in his best dressing gown, 126 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: you know, clutching a candle, you know, as he was 127 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: spooked by holiday ghosts. 128 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: Yes, which also I would argue helps the structure of 129 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: the story because it puts that titan of industry in 130 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: a more childlike position. 131 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 4: That's a really good point. 132 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: You know, this is done not to get on too 133 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: much of a tangent, but I read a really interesting 134 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: thing about how oftentimes villains in fiction and cinema are 135 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: seen drinking milk because it puts them in this sort 136 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: of like they are this they've got issues with, you know, 137 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: arrested development in some way, shape or form. And it's 138 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 3: also I've seen it used as a way of representing 139 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 3: sort of whiteness as well, like I believe specifically in 140 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 3: Get Out, the excellent Jordan Peel movie where no spoilers, 141 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: but one of the villains is seen drinking milk and 142 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 3: eating cereal separately. 143 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Clockwork Orange, No country for old Men. Whenever you see 144 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: someone drinking milk in a film, it is a very 145 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: purposeful choice. Shout out to Quentin Tarantino and inglorious bastards. 146 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: There are a lot of There are a lot of 147 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: bad people drinking milk. And I'm sure that the old 148 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: Got Milk campaign and trade associations have opinions on that, 149 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: but we haven't called them yet. 150 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 4: Nope, no penalty. I don't know the number. O T 151 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: M I L k oh. 152 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 3: That is seven digits. 153 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 4: That could be a number we should try. Let's try 154 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 4: a ring. 155 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: Let's try it because we've got our big boy bridges 156 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: on for this episode, so we can cold call people, 157 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: just like that pigeon that's been giving me nightmares. 158 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 4: We are scared. 159 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: So yeah, the the idea of breeches. If we go 160 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: to s. Lombard in her work making Manhood growing up 161 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: Male in colonial New England, what we see is that 162 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: this clothing, the transformation into trousers, functioned as a passport 163 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: to the world beyond the childhood home. You could get 164 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: into adventures, you could ride horses, you could go on 165 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,359 Speaker 1: high jinks. And while you did that, just like the 166 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: story of the twins that we opened with here, while 167 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: you did that, your unfortunate siblings, if they were assigned 168 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: female at birth, they have to stay in these stresses. 169 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: They don't get pants, and this keeps them closer to 170 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: the home. This is a lot of like handmaid's tail, oh, 171 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: hierarchical stuff. 172 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 4: Well think about it too. 173 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: I mean, like so many women's garments, you know, back 174 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 3: in history were very oppressively tight, you know, things like corsets, 175 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 3: and you'd often see the male. The male escorts such 176 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: almost be necessary in order to help the women into 177 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: a coach or out of a coach, because they couldn't 178 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: do it on their own, largely because their legs are 179 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 3: so tight together and they had to be delicately sort 180 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 3: of assisted in and out or crossing a mud puddle 181 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 3: in the thoroughfare, you know, in the Western times, the 182 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: idea of a gentleman throwing his waistcoat across you know, 183 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: the said mud puddle and escorting the woman across dare she, 184 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 3: you know, besmirch her her petticoats? And the struggle continues 185 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 3: today in terms of just getting in a nice dress 186 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: with pockets. Got your back folks. By the way, we 187 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: are pro pockets here, and decorative pockets are for the birds. 188 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: What's that about decorative pockets? I still under why would 189 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: you do it? 190 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 4: Anyways? 191 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: So, I mean, we're not fashion experts, but still it 192 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: feels a little bit counterproductive. We're not there, make it, 193 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: make it be a functional pocket? 194 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 4: Why why why not? Why is why is it sew 195 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 4: it up at the top? It doesn't make sense. 196 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: We're fashion functionalists, not fashion fascists, and we're certainly not 197 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: he ghots. So there is a cool shout out that 198 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: that you found here. 199 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 4: Max. 200 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: One of my favorite books that is so often forgotten 201 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: in the modern day, the Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy. 202 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: This is a wild ride. If you like Don Quixote, 203 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna like this book. It is bonkers. 204 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there is an episode of breaching that really 205 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 3: represents a you know, push forward into manhood. And there's 206 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 3: a great quote from it from the father of this 207 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: main character. 'tis high time to take this young creature 208 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 3: out of these woman's hands and push him into those 209 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: of a private governor. Okay, jumping right from a little 210 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 3: baby to a governor. 211 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it starts with the breaching. Let's go to 212 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: Jennifer Jordan, who wrote a pretty comprehensive deep dive on 213 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: masculinity as it was seen in the seventeenth century, and 214 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: Jordan identifies the same phenomenon we're talking about the social 215 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: import of acquiring pants. This meant, you know, like you said, 216 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: you're wearing the pants in the family, you're the young 217 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 1: man of the house. It became a huge significant milestone 218 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: in a boy's journey toward adulthood, toward manhood in some ways, 219 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: not in terms of the ceremony itself, but in terms 220 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: of what it represented. In a way, it's similar to 221 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: like a bar mitzvah or abot mitzvah. You know, it's 222 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: a huge passage in your life. And people in the 223 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: canon of Western literature talk about this all the time, 224 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: not just in their like bangor singles like in their 225 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: letters to their friends, the equivalent of DMS pre internet. 226 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: Samuel Coleridge talks about it with I think his son 227 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: was five years old? Is that correct when he got 228 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: this right? 229 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: Is it? 230 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 3: Samuel Coleridge, the guy who wrote in Kublai Khan's Pleasuredome 231 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: doth decree or what? I love that one. Yeah, it's 232 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: a good one. 233 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 4: You know. 234 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 3: It's funny too talking about manhood. Maybe I'm off the 235 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: mark on this one, but a lot of these pantaloons 236 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: were quite revealing in the swimsuit region, let's just say. 237 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 3: And often women's clothing were designed to be as modest 238 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 3: as humanly possible. It was almost as though the cut 239 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 3: of one's breach could in fact be designed to accentuate 240 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: one's literal manhood, you know, like David Bowie and Labyrinth. 241 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 4: Here we go. 242 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: We're reference rich today, folks. That's how we start. Twenty 243 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: twenty four. Coleridge is kind of surprised when he's talking 244 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: about his son's his son's introduction to pants in a 245 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: letter in eighteen oh one, he said he did not 246 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: roll and tumbled over and over in his old joyous way, No, 247 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't eager and solemn gladness as if he felt 248 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: it to be an awful area. It is life, so 249 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: like that is an area. He gets pants and he's like, uh, 250 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: beat me your max. He gets pants and he's like, hush, 251 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: it's getting real kind man stuff. 252 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, And didn't they have like sort of like you 253 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: know again, like the bar Mitzvah type situation. They had 254 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: sort of gathering sort of celebrations of these breaching occasions, right, 255 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: and there were like gifts given to make the pockets 256 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 3: of said breeches jingle with cash or coin to represent 257 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 3: the transition of this young lad into manhood. 258 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: So one of the first questions naturally occurs is how 259 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: old are these kids when they are allowed pants. The 260 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: answer varies from situation to situation, but in general it's 261 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: somewhere between four and eight years old. And it's something 262 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: like it's a liminal space. It's kind of like when 263 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: parents decide whether or not to let their kid in. 264 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: On the Santa Claus conspiracy, the ways depicted is that 265 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: there were sometimes conflicting desires on the parts of the parents. 266 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: The dads were like, let's make him a little man, 267 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: a little mini me that can go in trapes about, 268 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: and the mothers were depicted as saying, Oh, I don't 269 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: want them to grow up. Yeah, he's not ready. I 270 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: want him to be my little little guy forever. 271 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 4: And in fact, a historian named Catherine K. 272 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: Cain had this to say, And this is another pull 273 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: from the incredible Atlas Obscure article by Frost that we 274 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 3: mentioned earlier. Some mothers might try to delay the event, 275 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: especially if there were no other infants or toddlers in 276 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: the nursery, So that we know that in general it 277 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: can be the case often only children get peg with 278 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 3: having a little bit of arrested development, perhaps because they 279 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 3: are so precious, you know, there's no one else to 280 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 3: replace them once they leave the nest, so to speak, 281 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 3: so they're often kind of held back a little bit. 282 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's kind of a stereotype or 283 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: social observation that can have some sand to it. But 284 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: of course we don't want to paint with a broad 285 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: brush if it's not necessary. We do know that sometimes 286 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: children might not get pants because of their perceived health conditions, 287 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: like we need him to be on the mend, he's 288 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: sick with one of the weird medical maladies of our 289 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: day is the brain fever, the dropsy, the shoe foot, 290 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: et cetera, break bone fever. There it is, and the 291 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,479 Speaker 1: dancing plague, the dancing plang. This kid's got moves. We 292 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: can't put them in pants just yet. Let's see if 293 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: they can pop and lock and do a dougie or. 294 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 4: Perhaps a stinky leg. 295 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 3: Also, of course, and we've already kind of alluded to, 296 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 3: this class continued to play quite a big role in 297 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 3: when and under what circumstances a boy. 298 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 4: Was to be breached. 299 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: And you know, another thing is again, I keep going 300 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: back to this. People are not incredibly different from one 301 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: generation or one age to the next. So this is 302 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: a shout out to everybody in the US or Canada 303 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: who had, as a young child been dressed in a 304 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: costume for Halloween without your parents' consent. My folks always 305 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: kept is a place of pride in their mantle. Picture 306 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: of me as a pumpkin and then as what I 307 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: can only describe as a dangerously out of shaped French 308 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: chef nice. I was like not even two years. 309 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 3: Remember those really kind of shoddy plastic costumes that like 310 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 3: came with like sort of like a smock that was 311 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: sort of made of a weird rubbery material and then 312 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: almost like a like a reusable tablecloth, but not particularly reusable, 313 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 3: and then the accompanying mask. Those would be pretty much 314 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: single use. You wouldn't really get much hand me down 315 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 3: action out of those. But the class aspects here is 316 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 3: really important because, as we mentioned, these garments were custom made, 317 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 3: or they needed to be, especially if you know, there 318 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 3: were lots of differences in size and build between various children. 319 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 3: So a less well to do family might not have 320 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 3: the coin to commission a tailor, you know, to to 321 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: you know, cut a brand new tailored suit of pants, 322 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: you know, for a young lad passing into manhood, So 323 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 3: they might have to deal with these hand me downs 324 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: and for a while, and or continue on with the 325 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: sort of dressing gown situation until it became untenable. And 326 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 3: if there was going to be some sort of gathering 327 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 3: or party, it certainly wouldn't be at the scale of 328 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 3: that the rich might be capable of throwing. 329 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: Here is a cookie, congratulations your man now. Child labor 330 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: is definitely with being so into the minds up. 331 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 4: To the mines. Yeah, so yeah, class. 332 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: It always makes me sad when we have to talk 333 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: about class this way. It makes me think of things 334 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 1: like hard candy Christmas, about all these absolutely wonderful, innocent 335 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: kids who are rightly asking, well, why don't I get 336 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: the same kind of party? Wealthy families balled out on 337 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: this stuff. There are accounts of kids being given a 338 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: ceremonial toy sword, and the history we mentioned earlier. Cain 339 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: talks about how in more well to do families, the 340 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: kid would change into his new custom made suit because 341 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: mass production of clothing not really a thing yet, Nope. 342 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: And sometimes the tailor who made the little man suit 343 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: would be there to dress the boy, or the father's 344 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: valet because people had valets there and as footman perhaps, yes, right, 345 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: And the family would gather in the room, and then 346 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: there would be another guest, the local barber. And remember 347 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: this isn't too far gone from the years in which 348 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: someone qualified to cut hair was also qualified to amputate 349 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: limbs and let blood. 350 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: Right. 351 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, no. 352 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 3: And it's interesting, too, Ben, because I think we've been 353 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 3: hinting at it. This really was a passage in many ways, 354 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 3: not only into manhood, but into like leaving the house, 355 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 3: you know, because you needed to fit into that gender 356 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 3: role in order to leave the house. And for the 357 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: wealthier class that would be more about being introduced into 358 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 3: society perhaps, but for the less well to do class 359 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: it would be my be put off until they literally 360 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 3: had to, like we said, go hit the mines or 361 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: the fields, you know, and that is terrible, but that 362 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: is they would put it off until that point because 363 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 3: you can't really work in minds there in fields wearing 364 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 3: a you know, like a nightie. Yeah, you gotta have 365 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: that flexibility in the leg areas. 366 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: And like literally every other single thing humans have ever done, 367 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: there was a contingent of people who had a big 368 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: problem with it's there's a guy who maxic called mcclearpill. 369 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: I think he's a real pill. His name is George Nicholson. 370 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: In seventeen ninety seven, he writes a book called on Clothing. 371 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: I want to give him as due. This was the 372 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: time of stupid long book titles, So congratulations to you 373 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: on the brevity. 374 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 4: Nicholson. 375 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: However, your weird anti pants stance is kind of telling 376 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: on yourself, bro. He said, look, if you wear pants, 377 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: it's like comfortable to pee. And he also said this 378 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: would encourage self pleasure because yeah, he was like, if 379 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: you give these little boys pants, they're gonna play with themselves. 380 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,239 Speaker 3: Oh boy, but wouldn't it be easier to do that 381 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 3: just lifting up the dress. 382 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: I think George Nicholson had probably had some things on 383 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: his own that he needed. 384 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 4: To as wress. 385 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: It's sort of like like if you read Hemingway writing 386 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: about bullfights, it's like, come on, dude, everybody knows but you. 387 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 3: This is a metaphor for something that you haven't maybe 388 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 3: quite pegged yet. 389 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 4: No, that's a very very good point. Yeah. 390 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: Well, so, okay, we've got a quote from Nicholson and Max, 391 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm really glad you found this because it shows us 392 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: this attempt at anti pants propaganda. Dare we say it 393 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: was during the first and second year. The boy can 394 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: neither button nor unbutton his breeches, and he's continually in 395 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: a sad condition. Uh, Max white pants Williams has added 396 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: L O. 397 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 4: L like what the condition? Are they in a psychodicition 398 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 4: because they can't pee? Or are they a technician because 399 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 4: they peede themselves? 400 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: Because he just in the way he's saying is they 401 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: can't get their pants off. 402 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: He makes it sound like the reprehensible practice of footbinding, 403 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: which is totally different. But he makes it sound like 404 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: you're binding crotches well. 405 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 3: But also he goes on to say he takes it 406 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 3: a step further in saying, in his breaches, a boy 407 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 3: is pent up and shackled, and by way of compensation, 408 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 3: his mind is stuffed with opinion and folly is he 409 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 3: saying this boy needs to let out some steam. I 410 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: feel like it sounds like he's encouraging touching himself exactly. 411 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 2: Here's this whole part about this dude's This dude just 412 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: has something that doesn't what he's on about it. 413 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 4: He's wearing his on brief dress. 414 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: Still he got some bad pants too. Maybe maybe he 415 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: just got a really bad pair of pants and the 416 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: trauma stayed with him, Uh the call. As we know, 417 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: scientific studies have been conducted on the idea of pants, 418 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: like Shout Out Again, the Clockwork Orange, and the Lovely 419 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: Ongoing Narrative about the ephemeral cycles of fashion. We know 420 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: that sometimes bag you pants are in, sometimes type pants 421 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: are in, they come and go, and so there has 422 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: been science conducted on this that shows really tight pants 423 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: could damage sperm count ords. But that's like, honestly, guys, 424 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: that's like reading a study that says insert insert food 425 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: ingredient here gives rats cancer what they. 426 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 3: Need massive amounts shovel it into their little rat maws, a. 427 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: Larger amount than any human or any human sized rat 428 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: would ever actually eat. So I think there's a little 429 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: bit of context that we have to approach those studies with. However, 430 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: and this is something, uh, Max, I don't want to see. 431 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: You're excited about it. But this is something we've talked 432 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 1: about off air pretty often. For the past few weeks. 433 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: We talked about breaching, but Noel riddled me this, what 434 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: is unbreaching? 435 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 3: Ugh into the unbreach go We Yeah, breaching, of course 436 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 3: is a thing, a ritualized kind of passage into into manhood, 437 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 3: into you know how, bearing responsibility, responsibilities of a head 438 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: of household type situation. But what on earth is unbreaching? So, 439 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 3: writing for a Jay Store in an article called Boys 440 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 3: in Dresses, Matthew Wills had this to say, exploring the 441 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 3: biographies of men as disparate as Czar Nicholas the Second, Franklin, 442 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 3: Delano Roosevelt, and Ernest Hemingway, you're apt to come across 443 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 3: pictures of them as young boys looking into distinguishable from 444 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: young girls, their hair is long, and they're wearing dresses. 445 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 3: This tracks this is sort of the pre breaching, you know, situation. 446 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 3: It also makes sense that that's when the barber would 447 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 3: make an appearance, because up to that point, if they're 448 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 3: not leaving the house, it would have been prohibitively expensive 449 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 3: or maybe like a waste of effort to cut their hair. 450 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 3: So you'd have a lot of these portraits having them 451 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: in this kind of pre breached state. 452 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is not like culture war level stuff. 453 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: This is a matter of practicality for parents pretty often. 454 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: And you know, obviously, folks, kids should not have to 455 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: have uniforms unless they go to like a private school 456 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: where they make you do it. If we're big fans 457 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: of self expression and people arriving at their own identities 458 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: on this show, so we get the problematic aspects of this. 459 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: We also know that they were changing fashion trends in 460 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: the world of children's clothing as we get to the 461 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century, now we start seeing more 462 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: overt kind of gender uniforms. As scholar Joe B. Poletti 463 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: points out in her work, until the First World War, 464 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: little boys were, like you pointed out in the dressed 465 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: and skirts had long hair. The color coating of like 466 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: giving little girls pink outfits, little boys baby blue outfits, 467 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: that wasn't really common until the nineteen twenties. 468 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, also there wasn't color photography, so it 469 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 3: made more sense. You know, it was black and white, 470 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 3: so most of these outfits were white. I'm still you know, guys, 471 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 3: I'm hilariously colorblind. It's all gray to me. I'm surprised 472 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: more people haven't died. When I drive through traffic lights, 473 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 3: you're not missing anything, well except maybe the color of 474 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 3: the stup. 475 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: Like, I did feel bad because when I wore the 476 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: white suit and on the Christmas party, I wore a 477 00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: green green tie and a red shirt and I did 478 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: not thing about telling Ben that, And so it was 479 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: until we were on Aaron Noles. A lot of Ben's like, oh, 480 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: that's the shirt you're wearing, Max Mi, Oh sorry, yeah. 481 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: No, I knew the suit was white. 482 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: It's good to be able to continuously be surprised by something, though. 483 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very kind. 484 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 3: I mean silver lining, you know, Yeah, so there. 485 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: Is a course, there is a lining to this as well. 486 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: You let us know whether you think it's silver lightning folks, 487 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: our history lazy. 488 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 4: Right, right right. 489 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: Our historian Pilletti here says that children's clothing became more 490 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: like gender typed and at the same time, she notes 491 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: that clothing for adult women began to look there's a 492 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: quote from her more androgynous. And she points out that 493 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: there was a new sort of hierarchy of differences in 494 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: color and fabric, material and trim, perhaps the way it 495 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: was cut right that would separate boys and girls at 496 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: later stages, and that you also, she knows, to the 497 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: point about photography, she says, you know, you you're gonna 498 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: have a tough time seeing this in most photos of 499 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: the era, because photographs were kind of like everybody was 500 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: kind of like a photograph of Bigfoot. 501 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 3: Right, But also just some of these specifics, you know, 502 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 3: were more kind of specific to that society, you know, 503 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 3: so we might not recognize those as being gendered based 504 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: on the standards that we've gotten used to, So it 505 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 3: might be something that we would just would kind of 506 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 3: go over our heads since we're used to seeing dress 507 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 3: equals girl, pants equals boy. There were more subtleties, and 508 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 3: especially to your point, Ben, or to Joe's point about 509 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 3: the more androgynous types of clothing that were briefly associated 510 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 3: with with women's dress. 511 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot packed in here because one 512 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: thing we haven't talked about yet is the tremendous role 513 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: of folklore of indeed pre Christian beliefs that go throughout 514 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: all communities in the world, not just the Western world 515 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: as we call it today. There was this superstition that 516 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: still persists in various various communities. There was this superstition 517 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: that one must take certain actions to protect one's children 518 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: from infernal or dangerous supernatural forces. So like, okay, you like, 519 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: don't say the kid's name, and these certain circumstances. And 520 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: this is probably part of the reason why the little 521 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: boys were dressed in dresses, which is very weird to 522 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: think about, but there's historical sand to. 523 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 4: It one hundred percent. But also. 524 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: The idea of toilet training, Oh, it was important so 525 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 3: to have, you know, a garment that was much easier 526 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 3: to change and walk and didn't require any you know, 527 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 3: fiddling with clasps or you know whatever, because it wouldn't 528 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: have been zippers or elastic bands. It would have been 529 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 3: like you know, more tricky buttons or you know, not 530 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 3: snaps even I mean maybe even things that had to 531 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 3: be kind of laced right, So it was a bit 532 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: of a to do to get out of your pantaloons. 533 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, the difference. I love that how Poleeti puts this. 534 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: The difference between boys and girls at an early age 535 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: socially was not seen as as important as the difference 536 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: between children and adults. That was the big line of demarcation. 537 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: And so yes, it becomes celebratory. It also, I gotta 538 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: say it, sometimes really wealthy parents treat their young children 539 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: like pets, and it's kind of weird. That's why we 540 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: get the knickerbockers, That's why we get the we get 541 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: the cosplay. When some of these children were in a 542 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: very very h well to do families got their first 543 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: pair of pants to get outfits. 544 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 3: And just to clarify real quick, when we're talking about unbreaching, 545 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 3: we're talking about all of the fits that went into 546 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 3: this pre breached kind of period addresses. 547 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: Until you get the pants, you are unbreached. When you 548 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: get the pants, you have been breached. 549 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 4: I see. 550 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 3: So this is and also a lot of this stuff 551 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 3: would be much more specific in terms of the bespoke 552 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 3: aspects of the unbreached uh phase, that would be much 553 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: more specific to the wealthy, you know, because they're probably 554 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 3: also largely the ones that are going to end up 555 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 3: in photographs because that was the thing that was everyone 556 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 3: didn't get to do that. That was an expensive process 557 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: and you know, required time away from the minds in 558 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 3: the fields to even you know, get the kid to 559 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 3: sit still, and to have you have to have the 560 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: whole crew, you know, to do these family photographs. 561 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: I think about it before photographs, like you need someone 562 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: to paint you. You have to be important and have 563 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: a lot of right to have. I mean, you probably 564 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: have your vallee and your painter and you're something like 565 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: normal blokes like us. 566 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 4: Now we ain't getting paid in Yeah. 567 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 3: And unless there was some stylized sort of thing, impressionistic 568 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 3: sort of a portrait of three waifs in the gun, 569 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 3: you know. 570 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: I like the idea of breaching coming with that, uh, 571 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: with that responsibility, like okay, you're six, you're a man now. Uh, 572 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: we're going to refer to each other by our surnames. 573 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 4: Right, I am here's a gun. 574 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here's a gun. And to prove your manhood, 575 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: I need you to stand still for about four hours 576 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: holding this gun. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna leave you 577 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: with the valet. I've opium to attend to. So like that, 578 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: Like that's that's how it goes, all right. I know 579 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: we're getting toward the end. Uh, we do have a 580 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: conclusive explanation here. We do know that fashion continues to evolve, 581 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: and it does have a lot of symbolic import to 582 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: various cultures throughout time and across the world. But I 583 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: I want to give a shout out. It's one of 584 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: my favorite weird words. Finally got to use it. I 585 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: can't believe we got this far without saying it. Knickerbockers. 586 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: It's such a silly word. Knickerbockers. 587 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, and it's uh, you know, you'll see 588 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 3: it in I think there's the Knickerbocker Hotel. I think 589 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: there's one in New York, and I think there's one 590 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles too. But it just does it feels 591 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 3: like such a like it's of its time, you know, 592 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 3: this this word. But they were they were kind of 593 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 3: short pants, weren't They weren't nickerbockers, kind of like sort 594 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 3: of ruffled little little pantaloons or what's a knickerbockers? 595 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: A look, it's style. Couple different things. There are also 596 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: oh gosh, okay, so yes, knickerbockers are a type of clothing. 597 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: They can also be oh gosh. They're also called knickers, 598 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: but they can also be a last name. It can 599 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: refer to part of the Dutch community of early New York, right, 600 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: the Knickerbockers. It's fascinating. 601 00:35:59,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 4: I'm just fine. 602 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: I need excuses to say knickerbocker more often. I think 603 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: maybe we can start using more specific names for pantsy guys. 604 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: When we compliment people, we can be like, no, there's 605 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: awesome smart trousers, mister. 606 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 3: De some fetching pantaloons, Yeah, you've got a nack. Fetching 607 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 3: is a weird one too. It's like it makes it 608 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 3: like it's like I'm standing up and taking notice. You 609 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 3: done fetched me, and here I am remarking upon your 610 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 3: fabulous outfit. 611 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: You've a knack for Knickerbocker's my friend. I So with this, 612 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: we hope that we have answered the question. And if 613 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: you were interested in learning more about the history of fashion, 614 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,439 Speaker 1: there is a show with a great catalog that we'd 615 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: like to recommend. It is called Dressed Epede by our 616 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: longtime friend Holly Fry. The podcast is not putting on 617 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: new episodes for a while now, but it's deep and 618 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: it's really awesome exploration to us by co host April 619 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: Callahan and Cassidy Zachary. 620 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, both of whom I believe both have backgrounds in 621 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 3: literal fashion history, and they go pretty deep into it, 622 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 3: and there's a lot of detail and really interesting stuff 623 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 3: that even people that might not consider themselves interested in fashion, 624 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 3: there is history is forward in this podcast, So it 625 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: really is you know, we can learn a lot by 626 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 3: the Closed People War and the kind of circumstances and 627 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 3: ceremony around these garments and outfits. 628 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely, whether or not this podcast finds you wearing pants, 629 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: perhaps the most important thing we can leave each other 630 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: with today is dress how you want you know what 631 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: I mean, You have the agency to wear what you 632 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: would like, unless you know, I got you're at a 633 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: private school or you're in some sort of situation where 634 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: uniform is required. Because your clothing is more than just 635 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: a function. It can also be a statement of your 636 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: personality and how you feel and how how you want 637 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: to be seen and be felt. And that's a beautiful, 638 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: amazing thing, Oh. 639 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 3: For sure, especially now where you know, gender is such 640 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 3: a fluid thing, you know, and that is much more 641 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 3: socially acceptable than it's ever been. There are a lot 642 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 3: more opportunities, you know, for going one's own way in 643 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 3: terms of fashion. So I think that's really liberating. And 644 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 3: you know, for the longest time, as we see in 645 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 3: this history, things were very much foisted upon people, you know, 646 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 3: because of perceived gender, and now it is very much 647 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 3: kind of up for grabs, like what direction do you 648 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 3: want to go in? Do you want to mix it up? 649 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 3: There kind of are no rules. It's just about, like 650 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 3: you said, Ben, wearing what feels good and what makes 651 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 3: you feel like the best version of yourself. 652 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd like to end on that point again, you 653 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: have agency to present how you wish to the world 654 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: to be seen, to be felt. It is a beautiful 655 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: thing and we can't wait for you to join for 656 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: more Ridiculous History. Will be back next week. It's a 657 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: brand new Misadventures in the Meantime. Big big thanks to 658 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: super producer and research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams. 659 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 3: That's right, Alex Williams, who composed this theme chrisphrosciotis Eve's 660 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 3: Jeff Coates here in the Spirit. 661 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: Big big thanks to our pal Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister. 662 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: If you also enjoy food History, check out our sister 663 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: show Savor with Lauren Vogelbam and Addie Reese. Christ rossi 664 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: otis here in Spirit. I caught up with Christopher over 665 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: the holidays. He's doing well and you guys, he has 666 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: an official wizard beard now, oh cool. I asked him 667 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,959 Speaker 1: if he knows spells and he thought I was joking. 668 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 3: But with him briefly also and let him know that 669 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 3: we continue to shout him out in every episode, So 670 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 3: huge props to Christopher, who is here from the beginning 671 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 3: with Ridiculous History. Also for shouting out the Quist. We 672 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 3: kind of shout out a. J. Jacobs The Puzzler. Check 673 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 3: out his show too if you want a daily dose 674 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,320 Speaker 3: of New York Times fun, you know, and in a 675 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 3: short form puzzles for your daily commute. 676 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll be on The Puzzler in a different series 677 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: of episodes on the way soon. You can also tune 678 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: in to catch a. J. Jacobs in the future with 679 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History. No big spoilers folks, but got a sneak 680 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: peek at his newest book, which comes out in May, 681 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: and I am so excited. 682 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, same year. 683 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,439 Speaker 3: I think you got a chance to read a little 684 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 3: more than I did. 685 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 4: But the peak that I got was a delight. So 686 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 4: be on the lookout for AJ's new book, and in. 687 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 3: The meantime, we'll see you next time, folks. For more 688 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 3: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 689 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,720 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.