1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld. A few weeks ago, I 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: wrote an op ed entitled It's time to balance the budget. 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: You can read it at Gangwige three sixty dot com, 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: and I argued the only way to avoid a disastrous 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: level of inflation that destroys the American standard living without 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: creating a deep procession that puts millions out of work 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: is to cut government spending dramatically. Understand the numbers are 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: key here. By the end of two thousand and twenty, 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: the national debt reached twenty six point ninety five trillion dollars. 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: By comparison, in two thousand, the national debt was five thousand, 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: six hundred twenty nine and with inflation rising to five 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: point four percent in June, the Biden administrations two twenty 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: two budget is six trillion dollars. We are going in 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: the wrong direction. As someone who are with Democratic President 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton to balance the federal budget for four consecutive 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: years from nineteen ninety five to nineteen ninety nine, the 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: only time in your lifetime we balanced it for four years, 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: I can say on equivocally there is a moral case 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: for balancing the budget, and we must get a handle 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: on the scale of waste and corruption that is caused 21 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: by massive spending plans. One example is the roughly four 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars in unemployment funds lost to fraud during 23 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: the pandemic. Here to talk about outrageous stories of government 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: when he's still spending is Tom Schatz, president of Citizens 25 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Against Government Waste. He has been tracking government wasteful spending 26 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: for over thirty five years, and in fact, we worked 27 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: with him at the time of the Contract with America 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: and the effort to balance the budget in the late nineties. Tom, 29 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I think we're at such 30 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: a critical time with inflation rising so dramatically and the 31 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: by administrations proposed six trillion dollars budget. The only way 32 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: we have of digging out of this debt is to 33 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: cut government spending. And I wanted to have you on 34 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: today because I don't think people realize just how much 35 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: money is wasted by the federal government on programs that 36 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: just don't work. So I was hoping you could share 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: some of your insights today since you've studied this topic 38 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: for over three decades. Let me ask first, you joined 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: Citizens Against Government Waste in nineteen eighty six. What drew 40 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: you to that program. First of all, thank you mister 41 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: Speaker for having me on it's going to speak with you. 42 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, we did work together. Is happy to 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: help balance the budget at that time, and I could 44 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: not agree more that it is way past time to 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: do that again. I had come out of law school 46 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: and worked or a small offer and went to George 47 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: Washington Law here in Washington, DC, and then found a 48 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: job on Capitol Hill working for a Congressman, Hamilton Fish 49 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: Junior as his senior legislative assistant for six years, and 50 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: then was looking around for new opportunities and heard about 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: citizens against government waste. Of course, I was familiar with 52 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: the Grace Commission, which was the study of the federal 53 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: government under President Reagan that made two thousand, four hundred 54 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: and seventy eight recommendations that would save four d twenty 55 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: four point four billion dollars over three years, and decided 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: it was time to do something to get into a 57 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: lot of different issues related to how the government could 58 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: really become more efficient and effective. And a number of 59 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: those ideas were brought up through the Contract with America 60 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: and other efforts that were made in Congress, and in 61 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: fact almost two trillion dollars has been saved since Citizens 62 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: against Government Waste was established as a result of these 63 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: kinds of recommendations. So even though government spending is out 64 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: of control, certainly would have been worse without all the 65 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: things that people have done to reduce it over the 66 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: years and try to make it more efficient. Yeah, let 67 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: me ask you, has the amount of government waste changed 68 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: since you joined Citizens Against Government Waste in nineteen eighty six. 69 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: I think the way that Congress has been spending money 70 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: is different. As you know, it's become much more partisan. 71 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: It's made it more difficult to come to an agreement, 72 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: and you know the old story. There are three parties 73 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: in Washington, Democrats, Republicans, and appropriators. The appropriators seem to 74 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: agree to spend almost anything on whatever they feel like. Also, 75 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: the transportation committees are fairly profligate as well with their spending. 76 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: So I think it's changed because the objections to programs 77 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: have turned into criticism of their effectiveness to just criticism 78 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: of their existence. Trying to explain a little further, you know, 79 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: everything's become so hyperpartisan that any complaint about any program 80 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: that benefits anyone is viewed as attacking the person, or 81 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: attacking some group or otherwise undermining what the government can do. 82 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: And the government's looked at, especially by Democrats, especially the left, 83 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: as the solution to everything. So the objections have changed. 84 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: And you can point out, as you and I have 85 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: done over years, if the program is not achieving its objective, 86 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: then people who are not being helped, they're being hurt 87 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: because the money's coming from the taxpayers. And if you 88 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: made the program more efficient, you could help more people 89 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: who truly need it, but it's called wait, you can't 90 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: do that. You're taking something away from someone. I think 91 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: that's changed since you know, we were really trying to 92 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: achieve the balanced budget. You know, at the end of 93 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, the US did hit twenty six point nine 94 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: five trillion. They grew from five point six two nine 95 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: trilling back in two thousand. That's five times. Why is 96 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: the national debt increasing this much over the past twenty years. Oh, 97 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 1: everybody's to blame. Efforts were made to provide spending cuts. 98 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: Every administration has made proposals, by the way, except for 99 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: this administration. He may have noticed they don't have the 100 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: section of the budget that's program terminations and cuts and consolidations. 101 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: That's the first time that's happened years. I wrote an 102 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: OpEd that said, Joe Biden doesn't believe in government waste. 103 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: He was Sheriff Joe under President Obama, and you know 104 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: he was supposed to be out there leading a way 105 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: to help make the government more efficient. Now he's just 106 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: making it bigger. So I think that's one reason. And 107 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 1: even when Republicans had control of the House and Senate 108 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: and the White House, they could have done a lot 109 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: more to cut back on spending, and they didn't do 110 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: quite enough. And as you said, the last time the 111 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: budget was balanced was the mid nineties, and that was 112 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: a bipartisan effort. So everybody wants something, and the small 113 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: group of fiscal conservatives on Capitol Hill, and I mean 114 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: small in the sense of the stile a minority, just 115 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: have not been able to get enough done to get 116 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: spending moving in the right direction. Republican Study Committee has 117 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: a balanced budget proposal. I saw something today. Rand Paul 118 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: has his penny proposal. So there are ideas out there, 119 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: they're just not getting done. So the dead now is 120 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: a twenty eight point five trillion If this pattern continues. 121 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: The citizens against government waste warns that the national detial 122 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: increase to forty one trillion over the next decade. Did 123 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: that include the new two big bills that the Biden 124 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: administration is trying to get past. I believe it includes 125 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: some of that, but not all of it. And of 126 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: course the estimates of the three and a half trillion 127 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: are now more like four and a half trillion, And 128 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: then one and a half trillion is not paid for 129 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: as they say it is. The House Budget Committee Republicans 130 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: says that it's about three hundred and fifty billion short. 131 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: So the same gimmicks that the Democrats accused Republicans have 132 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: using in the last administration they're using now. And as 133 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, these projections are never correct in terms of 134 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: how much gets spent. So forty one trillion might be low, 135 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: but it's a lot more than the debt is now, 136 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: and that would be devastating to the economy to say 137 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: the least. I mean, first of all, what would that 138 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: imply that the annual interest payments would have to be 139 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: It would end up, I think, being the largest part 140 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: of the federal budget, if not one of the top 141 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: two or three. It's already in the top four. But 142 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: if all you're doing as an individual is making money 143 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: and paying interest on your debt. You never pay the debt, 144 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: and it puts the owners of that debt, including foreign countries, 145 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: into a much stronger position to have an impact on 146 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: our economy. So if you look at China and will 147 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: China wants to rule the world by twenty twenty five, 148 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: twenty thirty, whatever it is, it helps them a lot 149 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: more than it helps us. And that's another issue that 150 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: people need to recognize. So in effect, it would be 151 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: like having a house mortgage where all you're doing is 152 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: paying the interest in. You pay off the mortgage, but 153 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: every year you go to work in order just to 154 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: pay the interest in the house. So no matter how 155 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: long you own it, you'll never own it. Well, you 156 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: may end up defaulting at some point because your mortgage 157 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: does become due. And while no one's attempted to collect 158 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: the debt owed by the federal government, what if they did. 159 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: What if they suddenly said you owe us twenty eight 160 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: million dollars, pay up? That would be power. It's also 161 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: I think a sign of how committed Biden is to 162 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: very very very big government that his twenty twenty two 163 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: budget as a percentage of the economy will be at 164 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: the same level as the budget in World War Two, 165 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: when we were fighting a global war and had fifteen 166 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: million men and women in uniform. I mean, that's a 167 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: staggering scale of government and dwarfs Lyndon Johnson or the 168 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: Great Society or any previous American peacetime activity. I mean, 169 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: would it be fair to say that this is now 170 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: enough for to create the largest government in American history? 171 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: No question about it. It is certainly moving in that direction, 172 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: and without an effort to stop that or change the conversation, 173 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: which is what proposing a balanced budget would do, because 174 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: the reaction would people, how do you do that while 175 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: you're talking about we're talking about that, because it would 176 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: make a big difference and be completely the opposite of 177 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: what's going on. And I think people also need to 178 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: recognize that the states are required to balance their budgets, 179 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: and the states that have done the best job of 180 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: balancing their budgets and in many cases creating a surplus, 181 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: have the best economies, having even a lot of red states. 182 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: But I think that's something a lot of people forget. 183 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: They look at the federal government. It's here. It's a 184 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: morphoist it's not local. It's not you know, your school budget. 185 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: My father was president of our local school board. I'd 186 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: like to bring this up because it relates their property taxes. 187 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: It's very close to you as an individual and as 188 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: a family, something that has a direct impact on you. 189 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: The federal government spending not quite as clear, even though 190 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: over time it has an impact. But I think if 191 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: people look at their taxes as an investment and the 192 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: return on investment is a twenty eight trillion dollars debt, 193 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: they might feel a little differently. I've always thought about 194 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: sending a letter to everyone saying, hey, this is your 195 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: share of a national debt in case you want to pay. 196 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: And I think that would make it a little more 197 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 1: personal to everyone, because this is how messages get through. 198 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: As you well know, if it hits somebody close to home, 199 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: then they're going to respond a lot more passionately. I 200 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: saw a note that said that the lowest estimate for 201 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: the Reconciliation Bill is twenty seven thousand dollars per person. 202 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: That's how much it's spending. Just that one building doesn't 203 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: count all the rest of government, everything else we're already doing. 204 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's sort of astonishing. Now, they did go 205 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: through a little dance where President Trump had propose seventy 206 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: three recisions that would have cut spending by about twenty 207 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: seven billion, and Biden, then, I guess, withdrew all of them, 208 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: even though some of them had also been proposed by 209 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: the Obama Biden budgets. I mean, how did you read 210 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: that little dance? Well, again, as I wrote a National Review, 211 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: he doesn't care. He just wants to spend money. He 212 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: has no interest in any of this. President Biden was 213 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: involved in the negotiations over the Budget Control Act, which 214 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: as you know, set spending caps and did restrain the 215 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: growth of spending until it expired, and he's not bringing 216 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: it back. He worked with the Recovery Board attract expenditures 217 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: under the stimulus bill, and as a candidate, he talked 218 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: about his effort to cut waste when he was working 219 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: with President Obama would be measured by results, not rhetoric. Well, 220 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: now we've got rhetoric and spending. So it's a lot 221 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: different than what he had been talking about or working on. 222 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: And as you know, when he was a senator, he 223 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: was certainly not the most far left center. There were 224 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: others who like to spend a lot more than he did. 225 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: But now that he's in the White House, I think 226 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: he's being led or is at least agreeing with everyone 227 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: who wants to spend money on everything. It seems pretty 228 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: clear that Biden's administration is actually to the left of 229 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: Obama in terms of these spending issues. Less concerned about 230 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: cutting spending, less concerned about the scale of spending. And 231 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a little bit of a surprise to 232 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: people that he actually is that much more willing to spend. 233 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: And one of the areas, of course, that I personally 234 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: believe needs very dramatic overhaul is the Department of Defense. 235 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: I used to tell people and they had asked me 236 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: if I was a hawk or a dove, I would 237 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: tell him I hoped I was an owl. I think 238 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: you need birds that are wise and not just pick 239 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: between timidity and aggressiveness. But the Pentagon, I think is 240 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: such a disaster. Do you think about it. They built 241 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: the building in nineteen forty three for twenty three thousand 242 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: people working with manual typewriters in carbon paper. We're now 243 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: in a world of electronics, and I think you could 244 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: turn the Pentagon into a triangle and take forty percent 245 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: of it and turn it into a museum of national security, 246 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: and you would be dramatically better off because so many 247 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: of the bureaucracies now are just so deeply wasteful. There 248 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: are apparently like twenty four agencies that are just in 249 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: one particular subgroup they have two point nine trillion dollars 250 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: in assets. And then another subgroup, the Defense Information Systems Agency. 251 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: But the GONE once again has failed to pass a 252 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: clean audit. Actually I think up until about ten years 253 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: ago it had never been successfully audited. It is such 254 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: a mess, and it leads to real defense challenges. The 255 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: F thirty five Joint Strike Fighter is the project was 256 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: over eight years delayed, one hundred and sixty five billion 257 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: dollars over the original budget. By two twenty lockeed Martin 258 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: had delivered fewer aircraft than originally planned. Fewer deliveries and 259 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: planned are also expected in twenty twenty one. This is 260 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: just a mess, and that particular program has an estimated 261 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: lifetime cost of one trillion, two hundred billion dollars for 262 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: operational maintenance. I mean, from the standpoint of the whole 263 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: effort to look at waste, where do you come down 264 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: and looking at the Pentagon. Well, again, Citizens against Governments 265 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: grew out of the Grace Commission, and I think about 266 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: twenty five percent of the four twenty four billion dollars 267 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: in savings came out of the Pentagon. That's where the 268 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: money is, and that's where the inefficiency is in many ways. 269 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: And so the F thirty five we have spoken about 270 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: for a long time. In fact, we made Representative Mike 271 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: Turner of Ohio or Republican the June twenty twenty one 272 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: Porker of the Month because he is also the head 273 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: of the Joint Strike Fighter Caucus. He thinks that the 274 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: F thirty five quote is modern and capable, and he 275 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: also believes that increasing production will further reduce overall program costs, 276 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: so he has no problem supporting additional jsf earmarks in 277 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: the budget. We also have the Joint Strike Fighter in 278 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: our prime cuts, we have it in our congressional pig book. 279 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: It's really, unfortunately, a huge problem. When Senator McCain was 280 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: chairman of the Services Committee, he said it's both a 281 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: scandal and a tragedy with respect to cost, schedule, and performance. 282 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: And the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition in twenty 283 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: fourteen that Frank Kendall, who referred to the whole system 284 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: as acquisition malpractice. So there have been a lot of 285 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: comments about the Joint Strike Fighter, but it goes on 286 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: because the interests that are involved with building it and 287 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: selling it have a lot more say than the taxpayers. 288 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of wasting inefficiency at the Department 289 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: of Defense. I recall meeting with late Secretary Rumsfeld a 290 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: couple of times when he was Secretary. He really wanted 291 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: to get something done in terms of reducing spending. Was 292 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: all the taxpayer groups in town, and it was four 293 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: or five meetings. It's just such a large operation. It's 294 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: very difficult to make it more efficient. But every penny 295 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: that's wasted is a penning that's not being spent to 296 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: defend the United States of America. So it's to us 297 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: the most wasteful to have money go down the drain. 298 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: It depended on, you know, General Grant's deputy route a memoir, 299 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: And in the memoir he points out that after Lee 300 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: surrendered at Applomatics, Grant out on a train to go 301 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: back to Washington and spent the entire ride signing orders 302 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: to muster troops out of the army. On the grounds 303 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: that the taxpayer should not pay for the troops one 304 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: day longer than they were needed. Now you take that 305 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: level of frugality and compare it with the current Pentagon 306 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: whereas I understand it, and you may be able to 307 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: explain this, because to me, as a non accountant, I 308 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: don't get it. In twenty nineteen, the Department of Defense 309 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: made thirty five trillion dollars in accounting adjustments, and that 310 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: was up from thirty trillion and eighteen and twenty nine 311 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: trillion and seventeen. I mean, how can you have a 312 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: system that has to make almost a hundred trillion dollars 313 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: in accounting adjustments in three years? How can that happen? Well, 314 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: I know my board of directors would get rid of 315 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: me if I did that, but I like to have 316 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: financial statements that don't have adjustments. Unfortunately, the consequences are 317 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: not like they would be in the private sector. And 318 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: as you know, the solution, at least because members of Congress, 319 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: is just to go spend more money to solve the problem. 320 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: That's how things operate here on Washington. You see something wrong, 321 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: you don't fix it, you spend money, and then if 322 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: it's unfixed, you spend more money. And that's really what happens, 323 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: especially at the Pentagon, because if you can spend the 324 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: money under the guise of national security, it's in many 325 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: ways a lot easier and a lot more bipartisan to 326 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: get that money spent. In the eighteen nineties, the Navy 327 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: Committee in both the House and Senate both had chairs 328 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: from the state of Maine, and so they rigged the 329 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: system so that US Navy ships would end up in 330 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: a port in Maine being overhauled and ss men save 331 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: our ship, which meant don't finish it, and so you'd 332 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: have ships that sat there for ten years getting over 333 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: and so there was always the US Navy had a 334 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: relatively decent budget compared to many of other navies, but 335 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: it was all absorbed by ancient wooden sailing ships that 336 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: were being repaired in the state of Maine. And it 337 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: took the Navy League being founded and people like Theodore 338 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: Roosevelt and Henry Cabot Lodge getting engaged to change the 339 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: rules and create the modern steel Navy. But it was 340 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: just always a reminder to me that you sometimes need 341 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: to look and see, you know, it's not just the 342 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: executive branch, but who are the people in Congress who 343 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: are profiting from mandating waste. Now, you guys did something 344 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: very interesting back in nineteen ninety one and something which 345 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: I think is a real asset to the taxpayer. You 346 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: created a book which you've issued every single year since 347 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: then called the Congressional Pig Book, which I just think 348 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: is a great title. Tell us about the Congression Pig Book. 349 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: So the Congressional Pig Book came about because the Reagan 350 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: Office of Management and Budget decided not to spend money 351 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: on certain programs and then also identify programs that were 352 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: not authorized, and so they threatened not to spend the money, 353 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: and then of course Congress threatened to cut Omb's budgets. 354 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: So that was the last year they issued that list. 355 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: So we took that theory and we worked with the 356 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: Congressional Porkbusters Coalition, a bipartisan group, to come up with 357 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: a seven point criteria to determine what would be considered 358 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: pork rarel spending or earmarks. And we've used the same 359 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: criteria ever since. So it covers the process and if 360 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 1: the project meets the criteria, it goes into the Congressional 361 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: Pig Book. So the twenty twenty one Congressional Pig book 362 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: had two hundred and eighty five earmarks, which is up 363 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: four percent from twenty twenty cost of sixteen point eight 364 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: billion dollars, up almost six percent from fifteen point nine billion. 365 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: In tusky or twenty twenty. Nineteen ninety one, CGW has 366 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: identified one hundred and eleven thousand, seven hundred and two earmarks, 367 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: costing taxpayers three hundred and ninety two point five billion dollars. 368 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: We also this year created the Earmark Database, which has 369 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: every single one of those earmarks in a database showing 370 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: our almost thirty years of work identifying these wasteful projects. 371 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: So I encourage people to look at on on our 372 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: website CEGW dot org and see where your money has 373 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: been going all these years. And by the way, mister speaker, 374 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: we have always had a press confidence with live pigs 375 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: until unfortunately the last two years pandemic didn't allow us 376 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: to do that either. But it's been something that's drawn attention. 377 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: We get members of Congress to come and talk. We 378 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: did a virtual event this year with I think it 379 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: was seven Senators and six representatives. But there are people 380 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill who care about earmarks. The only group 381 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: left that is not taking earmarks or Senate Republic at 382 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: least formally. And that's also something else that they brought 383 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: back under President Biden. Democrats couldn't wait to agree to 384 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: get her works back into the appropriations bills and the 385 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: Transportation Bill. I will, at least on their definition, give 386 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: them a little credit for not going too far forward. 387 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: We're going to find more than they claim that they 388 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: include in these bills. I'm sure. It's just an amazing process. 389 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: And it strikes me that there's a enormous built in 390 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: resistance to actually reforming the system and controlling spending. They're 391 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: all out there to get themselves reelected for the most part, 392 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: and members of Congress believe that getting re elected requires 393 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: spending money. And the interesting part about earmarks is that 394 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: it's a very very small percentage of the budget one 395 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: percent or less, yet it takes up a lot of 396 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: time and a lot of effort for those members who 397 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: are requesting them, and the staff of the Appropriations Committee 398 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: takes up time and effort there, and they often usurve 399 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: local priorities because if there is for example, in fact, 400 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: the former Speaker Denny Hasturt said that he knows better 401 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: than the local people where to put a stoplight. I 402 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: never heard you say that, by the way, but it 403 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: is something that really goes to how things get done. 404 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: He's start in the local community. They set the priorities 405 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: for transportation, it goes to the stake, goes of the 406 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: federal government, and then it's supposed to be determined by 407 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: a process in Congress by which ninety nine percent of 408 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: the money is spent. So people that say earmarks are 409 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: really the executive branch taking authority away from the legislative branch. 410 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: That's just wrong because ninety nine percent of the money 411 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: is spent exactly how Congress tells the executive branch to 412 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: spend it. If you don't like it, change the formula. 413 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: I found that earmarks were really important as a function 414 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: of control, that a leadership that has earmarks can get 415 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: the attention of its members and can get them to 416 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: vote in ways they might not otherwise vote if in 417 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: fact they can be rewarded. And that was fascinating. When 418 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: we abolished earmarks, there was just a huge sense of 419 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: us making it much harder to get members to vote 420 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: because we didn't have anything to offer them anymore, or 421 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: for that matter, to punish him with who had to 422 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: just appeal to them and actually have arguments. It was 423 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: a very interesting period and goes against the underlying psychology 424 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: of legislative bodies. I think the whole notion of what 425 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: used to be called log rolling back in the nineteenth century. 426 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: I think it goes back to the very beginning, And 427 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: in a funny way, you could argue that Jefferson and 428 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: Hamilton having dinner and Hamilton agreeing to support Jefferson putting 429 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: the capital between Virginia and Maryland if Jefferson would agree 430 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: to support funding the national debt was a kind of 431 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: gigantic set of earmarks made at the very top, although 432 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: they were in the executive branch, so it may have 433 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: been legitimate in a different kind of way. Let me ask, 434 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: you have members and staffs just forgotten the concept of 435 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: balancing the budget. I remember when we were running, Reagan 436 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: had made it a real issue, and there really was 437 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: a caucus in favor of balancing the budget, and the 438 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: country had a dialogue with itself, and by nineteen ninety 439 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: four there was real pressure at the grassroots to balance 440 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: the budget. But I sense that we've been drowning in 441 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: money and drowning in crises, and that the topic just 442 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: doesn't come up. Well, that's true, but I think with 443 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: inflation at five point four percent and the size and 444 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: scope of what the administration and Democrats and Congress are 445 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: trying to do, people are saying that this is going 446 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: too far. Look at the President's approval rating is drop dramatically. 447 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: A lot of that has been because of the spending 448 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: and because of inflation, and people are making the connection 449 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: that when the government spends more money, it just creates 450 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: more inflation and it doesn't create jobs. I saw something 451 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: this morning that you can make almost forty thousand dollars 452 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: by doing nothing these days. That's a lot of money. 453 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: And that's another issue, of course, because that's the taxpayers 454 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: subsidizing someone to not work, as opposed to filling the 455 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: jobs that are being unfilled. I mean, we've got more 456 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: jobs and we have people filling them right now, So 457 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: the economy could be doing even better if the government 458 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: got out of the way. So I think this is 459 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: slowly going to come back. And balancing a budget at 460 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: any level enables people to enjoy themselves and enables state 461 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: and local governments to do only what they're supposed to do, 462 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 1: and not a lot more. But if the Biden administration 463 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: and Congress keep spending like this, we're going to lose 464 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,199 Speaker 1: the opportunity unity to bring things back under control. The 465 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: impact of that on our children and grandchildren will really 466 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: be devastating. Do you think that it will take a 467 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: crisis either of inflation or a crisis of just the 468 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: sheer scale of the debt payments before we really have 469 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: a sort of catalytic moment where the American people wake 470 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: up and say, you know, enough of this, get it fixed. Well, 471 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: not that I want the market to crash or not 472 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: that I want, you know, something terrible to happen, but 473 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: maybe that's something like that. You do have more wealth 474 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: being created. There were good reasons for that, because the 475 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: underlying economy is still strong. So I think it's going 476 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: to take some education, it's going to take a pretty 477 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: big effort, and it'll take some leadership by members of 478 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: Congress and candidates to continue to point out the difference 479 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: between conservatives and liberals and then the radical far left, 480 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: which seems to be the direction that this administration is 481 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: going in. It seems to me that there's a possibility here. 482 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: I think if we can win the argument that between 483 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: substantial reforms and reasonable frugality and a bias in favor 484 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: of work. You look at as you point out people 485 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: who sit around all day and get forty thousand dollars 486 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: for doing nothing, well, that's culturally a disaster. It may 487 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: look like it's politically clever in the short run, and 488 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: supposedly people will then be grateful to Biden for allowing 489 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: them to do nothing for a year, But in terms 490 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: of the quality of their long term life, it's much 491 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: better to learn how to work than it is to 492 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: learn how to wait for somebody to send you money. 493 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: And I think that that's an argument that probably can 494 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: be one. Well again, it has to continue to be made, 495 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: and I think numbers like that are starting to make 496 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: it clear that it is not a good idea. It's 497 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: all about self worth. It's hard to feel good about 498 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: yourself when you're not doing something. There's a big reward 499 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: from doing something and achieving something, and that's really what 500 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: made the country the greatest in the world. As we 501 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: continue to be even with the efforts to tear all 502 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: that down, and I think it's important to continue to 503 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: remind people that the government does not have the answers 504 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: the other thing which has really stunned me. And I'm 505 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: thinking about doing a book on balancing the budget and 506 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: doing it in a way that it also becomes an 507 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: excuse to look at the devastatingly negative effects of giving 508 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: away this much money. But I'm going to take just 509 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: two examples and ask you about them. Washington State lost 510 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: nine hundred million dollars to basically cyber theft, almost all 511 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: of it from Nigeria, where they came in, got people's 512 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: identities filed. They took out nine hundred million dollars in 513 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: a state the size of Washington in one program. Then 514 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: you turn around in California. I talked to the district 515 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: attorney a Sacramento who's pursuing this case. They apparently have 516 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: lost thirty two billion dollars in unemployment compensation. But in California, 517 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: the people doing the stealing were almost all of them 518 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: criminals in the California prisons who had figured out how 519 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: to use the computers, were going through the identity theft, 520 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: getting the money and then giving it to their boyfriend 521 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: or girlfriend outside the prison. They get thirty two billion dollars. Now, 522 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: my sense is that as government has gotten bigger, it's 523 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: gotten more incompetent, and that the scale of corruption and 524 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: theft is just beyond breathtaking. But what are you all at, 525 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: citizens against coming waste? What do you see on that front? 526 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: That's an information technology problem. The States were not prepared 527 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: to distribute the money for EXAMP. Look at the eviction issue, right, 528 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: they have forty something billion dollars out there and they 529 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: spent only a few bills in to help people who 530 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: are going to be evicted, and so where is that money, right? 531 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: It's not making it through the system. As more money 532 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: gets spent, of course there's more opportunity for fraud, wasted 533 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: abuse because they just don't have the systems in place 534 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: to prevent it from being wasted before it goes out. 535 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: I remember Peter Grace, who was the co founder of 536 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: CGW is to talk about, you know, the government spending 537 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: money that it borrows from people, and then it doesn't 538 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: worry about paying it back and it doesn't care where 539 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: it goes. I mean, if you are trying to again 540 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: as we talked about earlier, you're really trying to help people, 541 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: you have to do this efficiently and effectively and get 542 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: the money to people who truly need it, because otherwise 543 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: it's a waste for everyone. And I remember speaking to 544 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: Senator Ron Johnson, who ran a number of businesses in Wisconsin. 545 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: I said, you ran a business, you know how to 546 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: do things efficiently when you talk to your colleagues about 547 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: how to make things run effectively. And there were gr 548 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: reports on this. I know you've got some things on 549 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: your website about this. Gr reports are good. They do 550 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: show how the money's being wasted. But he said when 551 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: you say to them, if you operate the program or effectively, 552 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: you can help more people, what they say they say, ah, 553 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: we'll just create a new program back to where we 554 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: work before. So they don't really care that as wasted. 555 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: It's not their money. But you would think with eighty 556 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: billion dollars being spent on information technologies about the federal government, 557 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: they could fix those problems. But ninety percent of that 558 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: money is for outdated systems just to keep them going. 559 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: They can't update anything. It's astonishing. Then you look at 560 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: some of these hacking experiences and your own government can't 561 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: protect your personal identity. It's as though they're a generation 562 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: or more behind. I often think this as though the 563 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: government has programs to build stage coaches at a time 564 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: when people like Esus and Branson and Musk are going 565 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: off the planet in rockets, that you have the Washington 566 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: bureaucracy out here cheerfully working on a really, really high 567 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: technology stage coach, and we're supposed to think that this 568 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: is something we ought to be paying for. I want 569 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: you to know they're going to put up on our 570 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: show page the Citizens Against Government Waste Congressional Pig Book. 571 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: I know you don't have any piggies right now, but 572 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: nonetheless we think that it's a great program. We hope 573 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 1: you're going to continue to issue the book, and who knows, 574 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: in a year or two, the pigs may come back 575 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: and be part of the whole program. And we're also 576 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: going to put your website for Citizens Against Government Waste 577 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: www dot CGW dot org, so people can come straight 578 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: to your website and see what you're doing. Tom, I 579 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: really appreciate you're taking the time to give us a 580 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: brief introductory visit to a topic of hundreds of billions, 581 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: if not trillions of dollars that are being thrown away 582 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: of the money of the American people. Well happy to 583 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: do it, and as I said, We've got a lot 584 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: of examples. Our Prime Cuts report saves four trillion dollars 585 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: over five years, and so there's a lot out there. 586 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: There's no lack of information, there's just a lack of 587 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: desire to get it done. Thank you, mister speaker. Thank 588 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: you to my guest Tom Schatz. You can review the 589 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: work his organization, Citizens Against Government Waste is doing on 590 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced 591 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: by Gingwishtree sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, 592 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: our producer is Garnsey Slow, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 593 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: The r work for the show was created by Steve Penley. 594 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwidge three sixty. If 595 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 596 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 597 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 598 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners at newts World can sign up from 599 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingwistreet sixty dot com 600 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingridge. This is Newtsworld