1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: Trust me? 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 2: Do you trust me? 3 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 3: Here? Right ever lead you a story? 4 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: Trust This is the truth, the only truth. 5 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 4: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't welcome. 6 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: Welcome to Trust Me. 7 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 4: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two 8 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 4: hippies who've actually experienced it. 9 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth and. 10 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 4: Today's part one of our interview with Jonathan Hirsch, podcaster, producer, 11 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 4: and author and friend of the show, who grew up 12 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 4: in a cult led by New age guru Franklin Jones, 13 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 4: also known as Audie Daw. In this week's episode, he's 14 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 4: going to tell us how his parents met while in 15 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 4: their spirituality and Psychedelics era, ultimately happening into Franklin Jones's group, 16 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 4: and how many of Jones's followers were indoctrinated just through 17 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 4: listening to his tapes. 18 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: At first, we always come back to the tapes. 19 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 3: On this podcast, we'll discuss the group's constantly changing belief system. 20 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 3: One follower is fascinating experience seeing the doctrine differently once 21 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 3: she had to try translate it into another language, and 22 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 3: what it was like growing up on the cult's compound 23 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: as a child, and. 24 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 4: Next week we will get deeper into Jonathan's personal experiences 25 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 4: being in and then of course leaving the cult. A 26 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 4: lot of what we talk about today he gets into 27 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 4: even more on the podcast he made about this experience 28 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 4: called Dear Franklin Jones. And he also wrote a book 29 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 4: that also includes these topics called The Mind Is Burning. 30 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 4: But before we get into it with him, so much 31 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 4: to talk about, Megan, please tell me your cultiest thing 32 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 4: of this week now, Okay, fine, please, Okay. 33 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 3: So this this podcast we record and then it gets 34 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: released later. So I know some people might be like, wow, hot, 35 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: take this happened forever ago, but still it's culty and 36 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about it and it's kind of 37 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 3: more light. 38 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Well, actually it's kind of dark. I don't know. 39 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: You tell me, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, mom. Groups right, Yes, 40 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 3: you were saying you're not very aware of them, like 41 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 3: groups of friends where well, no, it's like, let's say 42 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: you get pregnant, you'll go to maybe I don't know 43 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 3: if they're still called the mos classes, but some sort 44 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: of class where you'll meet ten other women who are 45 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 3: also at your same term of pregnancy and you'll say, 46 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: let's start a group chat, and you'll start sending you know, symptoms, 47 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 3: fears products. I've just witnessed my friends who've become pregnant 48 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 3: join these group chats that become their mom group, that 49 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: become I mean, my friends would run me over with 50 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: a car before giving up their mom group rightfully. So 51 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 3: it's like they are each other's lifeline and tether to 52 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: this experience. That's one of the hardest things a person 53 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 3: can go through. They get this kind of community that 54 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 3: becomes very important to them, cannot turn. 55 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 2: Culty hmm hmmm. Sometimes. So I've seen several articles where 56 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: this has gone bad. 57 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 3: I've, of course, in real life experienced you know, one 58 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 3: mom going rogue, the drama, whatever. 59 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 2: But it's taken on a whole new. 60 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 3: Level with Ashley Tisdale publicly calling out her mom group 61 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: oh shit, yes, and saying that she's been left out 62 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: of things. This is the way I read it was 63 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 3: she was actually invited to a dinner party and she 64 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: was sat away from the other moms like would I 65 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 3: imagine to be like more with the children? 66 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: Okay, oh my god. 67 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and her mom group and includes Hillary Duff, Mandy Moore, 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: so yeah. So then Ashley Tisdale did this story with 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: the cut about you know, being left out of her 70 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: mom group and having to leave her mom group. 71 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 4: This is insane that this is a news story, but okay. 72 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 1: Go on. 73 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: So Hillary Duff's husband. 74 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: Claps and he makes a picture with a fake headline 75 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: reading when You're the most self absorbed, toned off person 76 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: on Earth. Other moms tend to shift focus to their 77 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: actual toddlers. 78 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 4: Oh my god, this is okay. 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: Okay, So now I'm just getting into Hollywood goes up 80 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 3: and veering out of out. 81 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: Of the cult realm. 82 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 3: But there is something to be said when you are vulnerable, 83 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: which you are when you're a new mother, and you're 84 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 3: forming relationships that are much deeper than normal relationships because 85 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: you're going through let's call it what it is, trauma 86 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 3: as well as love at the same time. But being 87 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: a new mom's very trauatic and sometimes it can go bad. 88 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: So I don't know that's my cultiest thing. I'm just 89 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: I would love to do a whole episode on somebody 90 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: who gets involved in a toxic and. 91 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 2: Some of them are great, and some of them are great, 92 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: of course they are. 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 4: Chats are like can go in every direction of good 94 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 4: or bad. This seems like the perfect example of our 95 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 4: previous guest, Renee drest Us, the term that she used 96 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 4: pseudo events yep, news stories that absolutely should not. 97 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: Be in the news, Like none of. 98 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: Us should know this, Lola, do you know where I'm 99 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: reading this from? Where CNN CNN stop. 100 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's like literally that we're like literally descending into authoritarianism. 101 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 4: But it's important to know about Ashley Tisdale's Mom group. 102 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 3: Mandy Moore might be mean There's no way I'm missing 103 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 3: you like Candy. 104 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 4: I don't know. I love Mandy Moore. I loved this 105 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 4: is Us. 106 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: I remember driving in my first car listening to the 107 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: song I'm Missing You like Candy on a tape so 108 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: good and thinking there's no way. 109 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: I also felt this. 110 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 3: Way about I Get knocked Down and I Get up again, 111 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: that Chumbawamba song where I was like, there's no way 112 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: I will ever like a song as much as I 113 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 3: like these two songs ever again in my life, and 114 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: the verdict is incorrect. I've liked other songs more. 115 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 4: I'm shocked. I'm shocked to hear that great songs both. 116 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: Yeah mom groups. 117 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: I mean because Lola I'm just I'm just gonna add 118 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: one more thing. They're not just on text groups like 119 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 3: my mom friends are meeting up with these women regularly 120 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 3: and life and there is drama. And if you if 121 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 3: you get somebody who's like, maybe like I'm selling a 122 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 3: new oil for babies, like, it can turn weird. 123 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 4: Okay, this is like the perfect segue into my cultist 124 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 4: thing though. 125 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: Perfect. 126 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 2: So what's yours? 127 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 4: Okay, So I read this article on Good Housekeeping dot com. 128 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: Oh wow, I didn't know you were a subscriber. 129 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 4: I just google cults sometimes. Okay, Kay, well we're trying 130 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 4: not to use Google as much anymore. But anyway, this woman, 131 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 4: Anna stouthored she is an author. She has a book 132 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 4: coming out, but she wrote this article about how when 133 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 4: she was a new mom with identical twin babies and 134 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 4: she was getting like zero sleep. She said the most 135 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 4: amount of sleep she was getting out of time was 136 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 4: like forty minutes. While she's raising these twin babies, she 137 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: goes on Instagram to try like she's panicked, she's losing 138 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: her mind. She's completely sleep deprived and feeling just like 139 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 4: scared she's gonna kill the baby. You know, like as 140 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: moms do, and she finds an Instagram guru. Of course, 141 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 4: she finds a man on Instagram who is like a 142 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 4: wellness guy who's also advising on how to grow your vegetables, 143 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 4: talking about the frequency of gratitude, how pain is just 144 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 4: resistance to the present moment, and of course she's exhausted 145 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 4: and desperate for answers, so she starts, you know, heating 146 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 4: his advice and like viewing him as a spiritual leader. 147 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 4: And then over time he's sliding into her dms. He's 148 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: telling her what to do, and then he lives like 149 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 4: in another country, I believe. 150 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: He sends her a picture. 151 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 4: Of a park near her house and starts like fucking 152 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 4: stalking her, this man who had become her guru. And 153 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 4: she's like, fortunately I didn't spend the money that he 154 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 4: wanted me to spend, but I was so vulnerable due 155 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 4: to this state of like interesting, sleep deprived motherhood, which 156 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 4: I just have never thought about before. 157 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: Wow. 158 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's an event that disrupts your entire reality. Yeah, 159 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 3: and everybody just thinks of it as good, which it is, 160 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 3: but also it's. 161 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: You know, you're very tired. 162 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot stuff going on. 163 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 4: To be clear, neither of us are moms. We don't know, but. 164 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: Don't know our lives. 165 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: I don't know, and I'm still very close friends with 166 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: my friends who are moms, and I do try to 167 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: go watch their kids at least once a week. 168 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: I try. I do, Yeah, And I'm not by. 169 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 3: Myself, but my friends are there, but like they're watching TV. 170 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: Or something, and I'm like playing with them, you know, 171 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: like I try. That's not why watching kids, No, I'm 172 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: with your friends house there. 173 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 3: I'm playing play though my friend's watching a TV show 174 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 3: in a different room. Like it can't replace an actual 175 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 3: mom of course, So like there's just the vulnerability there 176 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: if that other person happens to be whatever and and 177 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: your case, maybe it's not a mom, but it's a 178 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: person offering a solution. 179 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm hmmm. We should probably try to have her on. 180 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: We learn a little bit more about love to have 181 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: her on. 182 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: And if anybody wants me to babysit their children and 183 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: just buy me food and basically watch Real Housewives with me, 184 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 3: and I can call it babysitting, let me know. 185 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 4: Oh boy, all right, should we talk to Jonathan? 186 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: Let's do it? Welcome Jonathan hirsh to trust me. 187 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Thank. 188 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: You so much for being here. 189 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 4: We have like one hundred things we want to talk 190 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 4: to you about, but we're going to start with just one. 191 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: Okay, and buy just one. I mean, there's so much 192 00:09:58,520 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: to talk. 193 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 4: About with that one thing, which is is the cult 194 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 4: that you grew up in. 195 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: The one and only. 196 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, first of all, what was the name of this cult? 197 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: So it had a lot of different names over the years. 198 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: It ultimately became known as Addidam, but it really, you know, 199 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: it changed not only the name of the group over 200 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: the years, but also the spiritual teacher guru himself. 201 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: How changed? 202 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, dozens of times? 203 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, dozens of times. Wow, Oh I thought it was 204 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: like three. 205 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: Oh no, there was. Well, he was born Franklin Jones, sure, 206 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: and then he became uh Da free John and then 207 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: Bubba free John. So forgive me, I'm going to butcher 208 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: the order because I don't really keep the chronology of 209 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: his names in my head too much anymore. He's Da Kolki, 210 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: da Utah. He basically created variations on Da quite a bit, 211 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: and then later it started to have quite complicated names 212 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: like Ruchira, avatar Adi Da Samaraj. 213 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: She was like going the opposite of Prince. Remember when 214 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: Prince became just a like movement what Prince the artist, Well, 215 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: he became over this when he became like a sign. 216 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: Oh oh, I didn't know that. 217 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 3: He was like, I'm simplifying it that this man was like, 218 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 3: I'm making it more complicated. 219 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: It's actually a really interesting observation about him because you 220 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: see this person in the nineteen seventies becoming a sort 221 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: of hippie spiritualist guru type not uncommon for the time, 222 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: just sort of a friend literally Bubba like your friend 223 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: Bubba John or whatever. The sort of variation is there, 224 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: to something much more complicated Byzantine and reading the words 225 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: he wrote, they went from conversational English to some kind 226 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: of kuneiform symbol. Like there was just so much complicated 227 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: language in there that if you read some of the 228 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: books that he before he died, you can barely understand them, 229 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: and even the people within the group would have to 230 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: sort of refer to scholars to like, wow. 231 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 4: Well, for purposes, he is Franklin Jones, but on Wikipedia 232 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 4: it's Audi Dap. 233 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: Most people would probably know him as Audi Da exactly 234 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: that's correct. And photos of this guy. 235 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 4: Wow's a character full blown scullet, bald on the top, 236 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 4: completely long hair in. 237 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: The back, I think I have. 238 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: But that nails it. 239 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 3: But like most importantly, like white as the day is long. 240 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: Yes, this is just the Queens, New. 241 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: York man, just a guy from a blue collar neighborhood, yeah, 242 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: in Queens. 243 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 4: But he does have a very like interesting face, Like 244 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 4: there's something about his eyes. 245 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: That's like very sort of he looks like he'd be 246 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: a movie character. 247 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 4: There's just something interesting about his face, which I that 248 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 4: look I imagine contributed to something some kind of aura about. 249 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: Him, definitely, And there was a sort of hypnotic effect 250 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: to the way that he would engage like eye contact 251 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: with people. Of course, you know, so it was like 252 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: even the way that I'm sure your listeners have like 253 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: some familiarity with with kind of how this these sort 254 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: of guru relationships might work. But you know, your followers 255 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: would sit in front of the teacher or guru. And 256 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: it was believed, at least in the group that I 257 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: was raised in, that Franklin Jones or Adi Da I 258 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: oftentimes refer to him as Franklin Jones because he's a 259 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: human being. Yeah, who, like the rest of us, lived 260 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: and you know, in his case, died. We will never die. 261 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: Never in the circle of friends. I'm out. 262 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: I opted out. 263 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: Actually, I'm so glad that I did paint a little 264 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 1: bit more on the front end. But yeah, yeah, paying dividends. 265 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: But his followers believed, as my parents believed, that he 266 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: was actually physically an incarnation God. 267 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 2: So immortal. Was that any was that a part of this? 268 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: When he died, were people like what? 269 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: I think? The belief was that his physical body would die, 270 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: but that he was what immortality is, if that makes sense. 271 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: So when you die and you're reabsorbed into this universal consciousness, 272 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: it's actually Franklin Jones that you're reabsorbing yourself into. 273 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 4: Oh yes, oh yeah, wow. 274 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: Man, yeah, scolet man. 275 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't wait to be absorbed into Franklin Jones, 276 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 4: the sculet man. 277 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: I'm pretty obsessed with him. I'm not going to lie 278 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: to you. Like the gall of this man, I mean, 279 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 3: he is he is something else. He is golful. It's 280 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: just so all the new vocab that you're introducing. 281 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: I just made that one up. 282 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 4: Okay, But tell us a little bit about your parents 283 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 4: and how they discovered him. 284 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: I think they are both a window into the kind 285 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: of people that would have joined Franklin Jones's group, and 286 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: they're also, I just think a good window into the 287 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: kinds of people who were exploring different ways of being 288 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties into the seventies. You know, my 289 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: father was a Hungarian immigrant who fled the war during 290 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: the Hungarian Uprising in the nineteen fifties. He arrived here 291 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: in the United States, like a lot of Hungarians, as 292 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: a refugee. He built a life. He had a first 293 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: marriage that did not work out so well, and then 294 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: he met my mom. He met my mom when he 295 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: had already moved to Los Angeles and started exploring psychedelics 296 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: in the form of acid and other things, and he 297 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: also was exploring alternative forms of spirituality. He felt like 298 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: there was something more to life than what he was 299 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: being afforded, and I think the drugs were an access 300 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: point for him, like so many people in the late 301 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, you know, acid literally like turn on, 302 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: tune in, drop out, that phrase that was promoted in 303 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: that era, this idea that you need to step out 304 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: of society to see something bigger than what everybody else sees, 305 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: and like, whatever that is, it's not what's being offered 306 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: within the traditional confines of the society. And so he 307 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: was a seeker. He was a spiritual seeker. And my 308 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: mom in many ways was on the other end of 309 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: the spectrum of that same kind of spiritual journey that 310 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: so many Americans in particular were on when the social 311 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: fabric was fraying in the late sixties, when the Vietnam 312 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: War was creating all this civil unrest, when the civil 313 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: rights movement was showing us that we do not live 314 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: in the picket white fan Sisenhower society that we think 315 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: we do. That it is a lot nastier out there. 316 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: It just depends on where you center the point of view. 317 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: And so I think for my mom, she was also 318 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: in search of something that looked bigger than the kind 319 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: of like nine to five suburban life that she was 320 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: raised in. She ended up living in Nepal for a 321 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: decade and go into acupuncture, became an acupuncturist and moved 322 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: back to the San Francisco Bay area in the nineteen eighties, 323 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: and was also, you know, by that token into some 324 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: of this new ag stuff and spirituality and Buddhism she'd 325 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: been exposed to when she was living in the East, 326 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: and the two of them found themselves at a meditation 327 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: of another guru. 328 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: There were so many though at that time, I mean. 329 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so again to the point that it just 330 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: this stuff was in the ether. Yeah, And if you 331 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: were living in San Francisco in the nineteen eighties, you 332 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: might wander into a you know, alternative bookstore and find 333 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: this stuff in the back. In fact, in Marine County, 334 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: where they lived for most of my adult life, the 335 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: New Age bookstore, the alternative bookstore used to be a 336 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: Franklin Jones group owned bookstore before the group, before the Parties, 337 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: as far as I knew, defected and then like took 338 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: the bookstor oh wow, so you know warring New Agers. Yeah, 339 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: but anyway, back to the story. In the nineteen eighties, 340 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: my parents meet after they had seen flyers around town 341 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: for this spiritual teacher who went by the name Rama 342 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: or Frederick Lenz. I don't know if he's ever been 343 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: covered on trust Me, but he was again one of 344 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: these like hippie spiritualist kind of guru types who like 345 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: wore leather jackets and played in a rock band. Called Zazen, 346 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: and he was just again, a well educated white guy 347 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: from the Northeast who was presenting a sort of synthesized version, 348 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: a pop psychology version of more like ascetic Eastern philosophical traditions. 349 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, sign me up. Unfortunately you're in. And then 350 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 3: I mean. 351 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: He's pretty he's I mean, he was his own kind 352 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: of charming, fascinating, charismatic figure. And I think something that 353 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: Rama and Franklin Jones shared was this charisma and way 354 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: of talking that was quite compelling. I mean, you hear 355 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: some of the recordings in the podcast that I did 356 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: about this deer Franklin Jones, You hear recordings of Franklin Jones, 357 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: and you're like, I think some people feel I mean 358 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: I've told me they felt unnerved when they hear it, 359 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't he's like really intense. But then other 360 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: people are like, wow, he's just he has a way of. 361 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 3: Yeah talking, Well, I hear both. Yeah, that's a good 362 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: point that we'll get into in a minute. 363 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: But his laugh is very yeah booming. Yeah. 364 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 4: Your mom on your podcast, because you interview your parents 365 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 4: on the podcast, and your mom talks about this like 366 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 4: laugh And I was like, how booming of a laugh 367 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: could it be? 368 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: And then you play him laughing and I'm like, oh, 369 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: it's booming. 370 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very booming. I do people say that it's like, oh, 371 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: person had a laughter that filled up the room. It's like, yeah, 372 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't know what it fills up the 373 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: room with. It could be tear gas or something else, 374 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: but it definitely occupies the space, you know. And I 375 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: do think for people who were looking for this person 376 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: to occupy their space, which if I look at my 377 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: parents critically, I believe that they were looking for something 378 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: to fulfill them rather than maybe addressing some of the 379 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: traumatic features of their life. And here they meet each 380 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: other and their relationship is fraught for precisely the same reasons. 381 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: Over though they were together for a couple of decades, 382 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: but in those days everything was on the upswing. 383 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 3: You know. 384 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: It was like, we met this guru. He's really fascinating. 385 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: They literally were in line and they bumped into each 386 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: other at this it's a real it's like the most. 387 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: Heuy you've ever heard of. 388 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: The story goes that my dad was in like an 389 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: all white outfit and my mom turned around and said, 390 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: either you're a pimp, or a limousine driver. Either way, 391 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: I like it. What a line, Possibly the funniest thing 392 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: she's ever said. But yeah, they were two very unlikely 393 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: people who were brought together by their shared desire to 394 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: find what they perceived to be some bigger truth. 395 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 3: So how did they go from the first Guru to 396 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 3: Franklin Jones? 397 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they got involved with with Rama and in 398 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: the early days of Rama's group. I also did a 399 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: documentary about Rama later after this, and so I've learned 400 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: quite a bit about him over the years. But in 401 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: the early days it was a little bit more informal. 402 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: The people who were involved. He actually delineated between his 403 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: early phase followers and his later phase followers as like 404 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: st Ones and ST two use as in Star. 405 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: Trek Okay, oh my god, it's a thing. 406 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't make it up. Yeah, I'm 407 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: just relaying the fact. But they were st once. And 408 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: so when the group started to sort of move towards 409 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: these other practices, which included making all of his followers 410 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: his meditation students, as he would have referred to them, 411 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: become computer programmers. Interesting split the revenues of course of their. 412 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 2: Of course, for sure, like what else would you do 413 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: natch right. 414 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: That was the point at which my parents I don't 415 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: think had the core competency to become computer programmers. 416 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 417 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: So your parents were like, we can't be programmers, will 418 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 3: join Franks Exactly. 419 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 2: I thought it wasn't just that he moved to New 420 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 2: that he just left. 421 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 4: I thought for some reason, Rama just like bailed to 422 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 4: New York and your parents were like, well, we got 423 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 4: to find another guy. 424 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: He he did ish, he did discourage them from joining, 425 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: which seeing my parents mean, I mean, I've you haven't 426 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: seen my parents in front of a computer before. I 427 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: used to joke that my dad he had this like way, 428 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: he didn't have the language to understand computers, so he 429 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: would like psychoanalyze them. 430 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 2: He'd be like this motherboards resistingly. 431 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: Oh my god, not the right. 432 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 433 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, so they probably were gently let go 434 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: in that regard. You know, they just couldn't keep up 435 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: with the times. 436 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 4: You know, and there were other ways to make money, 437 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 4: but they're listen, I. 438 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: Guess they just could not deliver, and in that regard. 439 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 3: Really interesting, so they got kind of side moved into 440 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 3: to this other group they. 441 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 2: Did, And you mean, to your point, Rama. 442 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: Did move to New York to Westchester County, and that 443 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: became part of where the group kind of established itself 444 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: to do this kind of work that they were not qualified. Right. Wow, Well, 445 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm I feel bad talking about my parents in this way, 446 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: but like. 447 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 4: Parents are supposed to be bad at technology. What that's 448 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 4: what they're there. 449 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: They're so lovely and that the interviews, it's just like 450 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 3: they're lovely. I know, I'm so bad at technology because 451 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 3: how I was raised. We didn't have it like my cult. 452 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 3: So like I've gone to the Apple store before and 453 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: they've been like, we actually don't know how you've fucked 454 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 3: it up this much because. 455 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: We've never seen this before. Like I've just clicked. 456 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I could say she's exaggerating, but she's really not. 457 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 4: Like some of the most basic things, she's like, how do. 458 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 2: I do it? Are you eighty years old? 459 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 3: It's really because so like, no, no hate towards your parents, 460 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: it's just it is what it is. 461 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you're not raised with it, I don't know. 462 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: Fucker is just not. Also, this was the eighties who 463 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 2: was doing technology eighties. 464 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean he was a visionary and rama needed to 465 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: clearly do some corporate restructuring. So my parents were on the. 466 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: Out what your parents both did acupuncture? 467 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: Yes, my mom was was that was a licensed acupuncturist. 468 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: My dad was an unlicensed acupunctist, which I he knew. 469 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: My dad would definitely tracks. 470 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine your dad is like this person. I 471 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 2: don't know, I just I imagine. 472 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 3: Him doing acid and like seeing the other side of 473 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: the fabric of reality being very interesting for him. 474 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 4: Because he lived like a straight normal by the book 475 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 4: life prior to that, right, and he like talk talks 476 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,479 Speaker 4: about that moment where he woke up from acid on 477 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 4: and I was like, wow, that's just like you won 478 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 4: eighty You do acid one time? Does acid one time? 479 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 4: Joints the cult Like that's crazy. 480 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: He definitely felt like he saw something. 481 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll do that too, and sometimes in good ways. 482 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: You know, I want to I want to try ascid. 483 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: Well yeah, now, so. 484 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: I've done aid a lot. Children don't listen. 485 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have fun. 486 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: And it does help. 487 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 3: Like you know, somebody from the two by twos will 488 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 3: be like, well, telling me like some doctrine and I'm like, 489 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: I've gone back through time on acid and seeing the 490 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 3: essence of reality. 491 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: I'm I it's not real what you're saying, But. 492 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 4: I can also have the opposite of that drives you 493 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 4: into the cult, as did for so many people in 494 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 4: the sixties, seventies, eighties, And. 495 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: I think that was sort of the core of it 496 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: for them was that I think they from different places 497 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: saw the limits of their own lives and wanted this 498 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: bigger philosophy, whether it was because of spiritual exploration, traveling 499 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: to other cultures. Like my mom lived a very kind 500 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: of middle class Midwestern life as a child. She was like, 501 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: you know, the oldest of seven kids, Like my grandfather 502 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: worked really hard, but they had like you know, they 503 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: were Irish Catholic. My grandmother like, these were very solid, 504 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: good people, hard working people who were not like experimenting 505 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: with yea, you know, the fabric. 506 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: Of reality, right, That's how my family and I love 507 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: them for that. 508 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: But it definitely I think she was looking for something 509 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: different and she got it in the form of Franklin Jones. 510 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 511 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 4: Yes, So talk to us about what actually happens when 512 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: they join, Like how how are they indoctrinated, what is 513 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 4: the like system of teaching? Are they interacting with him 514 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 4: directly in the beginning. 515 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: So Interestingly, I think Jones is kind of an odd 516 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: character in this way. He appeared and disappeared out of 517 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: the lives of his followers for long stretches of time, 518 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: in part because he had so much property. 519 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: What a life you go on from that? 520 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 3: It was really interesting in the podcast that, like you 521 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 3: tried to find people who grew up with him, and 522 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 3: people from his high school were like, I don't remember him, 523 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 3: Like nobody remembered him. He was kind of a random dude. 524 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: And then to suddenly go to being a guru who 525 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 3: has like too much land to even hang out with 526 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 3: your followers, That's a wild. 527 00:27:59,359 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: Leap for me. 528 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And you wonder what was motivating that arc. 529 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: This is just my opinion, but I feel like he 530 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: was under a pretty significant amount of public pressure right 531 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: around the time my parents joined, by the way, because 532 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: of controversy. There were some lawsuits that were threatened, there 533 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: were some you know, matters that were sort of settled 534 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: out of court. He was on the front page of 535 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: the news on the San Francisco Chronicle, and as somebody 536 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: who was coercing as followers, manipulating them in some cases, 537 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, allegedly assaulting them. So that's when my parents 538 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: thought this is a great place to bring their kid 539 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: and raise a family. That was must have been what 540 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, entered in their mind, but they weren't concerned 541 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: about it. It was almost like they were, you know, immune 542 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: to the world around them, and it made their search 543 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: for like answers so sad. Flying with Jones because he 544 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: offered this community, this world that was kind of outside 545 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: the boundaries of everything else. It felt special. So in 546 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: those days, in those early days, they didn't actually meet 547 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: him or encounter him very much. And I believe that 548 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 1: part of the reason for that was Jones kind of 549 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: tried to step away from the limelight when all of 550 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: these controversies started to reach the press. 551 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: Right. I wonder if him not being there made them 552 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 3: more attuned to him because they're like listening to his tapes. 553 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 3: He's not doing anything wrong. All they have is positive 554 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 3: tape version of him. 555 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, talk about what a like entrancing world 556 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: to be. And you hear this guy's voice and his 557 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: laughter and his words, and he's promising all of these things. 558 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: He claims to possess these things. You know, it's quite 559 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: a fantasy you can build up in your head. About 560 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: who this person is and what they do. I mean, 561 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: meeting him, there was all those expectations when I was 562 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: a young person, like there was. It was very intense. 563 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like an early YouTube guru. I feel like 564 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 4: we have that now. Yeah, with these parasocial relationships with 565 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: all these figures on YouTube and stuff. But we've had 566 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 4: quite a few guests, I feel who were initially exposed 567 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 4: to their cult through tapes, through just like long tapes 568 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 4: of the guru talking yeah wow, and developing a relationship 569 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 4: to them that way initially. 570 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's funny too. Most of his followers, 571 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: even the ones that did encounter him physically, many people 572 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: went their entire lives being in this group and never 573 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: physically seeing this man wow, which is kind of wild. 574 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: You dedicate your life to being in a religion, right, 575 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: or he would call a non religion religion, but a 576 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: religion in the sense that it was an organized religious group. Yeah, 577 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: just putting hairs here, but you know it, oftentimes in 578 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: these groups there is an obsession with what they perceive 579 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: to be accuracy that somehow, if you like, said it 580 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: this exact right way, it didn't make it a religion 581 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: or it didn't make it a cult or it didn't 582 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: make it something that was dangerous, right, You just have 583 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: to explain it to people, which was so painful to 584 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: write about because you never satisfy these people who want 585 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: you to say exactly what their group says about what 586 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: their group is. Many people were disappointed in me for that. 587 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: But to your point, the relationship transcended that, you know, 588 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: that physical relationship. It was much more about what his 589 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: message was and the way that he said it, and 590 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: the tapes were a huge part of that. I think 591 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: it's why I wanted to frame the series around these tapes, 592 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: because everybody had boxes of them the way my parents did, 593 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, you know, like back in the eighties and nineties, 594 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: like when people had cassette tapes. Oh yeah, for those 595 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: who may not remember, they like they had like big 596 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, almost like. 597 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: CD holders, but they were were tapes. 598 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: I didn't know that massive. I remember my parents had 599 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: a few that were like almost like palettes, you know 600 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: what I mean, And you'd have all of your tapes 601 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: in there. I mean so many tapes? 602 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 2: Did this man have hundreds? 603 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: Yes? 604 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: What was the core message? If we had to make 605 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: one up? 606 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: It changed over time, okay, But I think the fundamental 607 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: message was rooted in this idea of non dualism, which 608 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: you see in Buddhism and in Hinduism, the idea that 609 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: we construct an image of ourselves in the world as 610 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: individual people, separate selves. They might have said, that is 611 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: an illusion, and in fact we are basically like all 612 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: of us are little, you know, molecules that are part 613 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: of the whole, one organism, one organism, one consciousness, which 614 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: is Franklin. Yeah, he'd be like, I'll get there, but yes, 615 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: short tail dry, But yes, I think so. In the beginning, 616 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: the idea was he was teaching people how to see that, 617 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: and that enlightenment was the recognition of the fact that 618 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: you were one consciousness, that you were undifferentiated from others, 619 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: that you saw yourself as that, and therefore you no 620 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: longer suffered the mortal life and pain of being a 621 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: human or being any kind of sentient creature. You know. 622 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: In Buddhism they have this idea that, like, you know, 623 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: one of the four noble truths I'm making that right 624 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: is like that life is suffering, and so our suffering 625 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: comes from our ignorance about our own impermanence. So if 626 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: you recognize that you are a mortal being, except for 627 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: the three of us were we're we're immortal. Thank god 628 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: I signed off on that. But if you recognize that, 629 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: then you no longer suffer in life because life is 630 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: a temporary thing. Right. 631 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 4: So he's just stealing from Eastern religions, which is what 632 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 4: so many of these people do, and kind of mash. 633 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: It all up together and stir it in a pot. 634 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: Take a little bit of this, take a little bit 635 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 2: of that. Yeah. 636 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: My producer on Dear Franklin Jones is an old friend 637 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 1: of mine, Ashley Kleek, And I was grateful to have 638 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: my producer and my editor be friends of mine because 639 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: in a way, writing that story was very difficult and 640 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: very personal. Any Obvolesce was my editor, and the two 641 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: of them would sort of have to wrangle me from 642 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: trying to like reconcile what I wanted to believe even then, 643 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: from what the reality of the situation was. And to 644 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: that point, trying to define the group was always very 645 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: difficult and its beliefs were always difficult because I can 646 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: start to construct this narrative about it, right like that, 647 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: it's about nondualism, you see it in these other religions. 648 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: But then like how does he play into it? And 649 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: then later he becomes this other thing and the word 650 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: that the words that Ashley would always use to describe it, 651 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: or word salad. She'd be like, you're in the word salid. Yeah, yes, 652 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: it's not making sense anymore, like it's this is word salid. 653 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 2: Right. 654 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: At first that process was frustrating for me because I 655 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: had to redefine my own understanding of a reality that 656 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: I had, like a philosophy I had inherited from my parents, 657 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: you know. But I now can see that very clearly, So. 658 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 2: That's hard work. 659 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: It is, Yeah, yeah, it is. 660 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 2: I mean, I like, this is a tactic that a lot. 661 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't even know how many of them. 662 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 4: Are doing it consciously or if it's just spewing it 663 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 4: out of their mouth, But like word salad is a 664 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 4: key feature. It's a key like the function of a 665 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 4: cult leader's doctrine so much at the time, because if 666 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 4: you understand it, then you don't need to go to 667 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 4: them to try to understand it. Like the more ambiguous 668 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 4: and confusing it is, the more the goalposts can move, 669 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 4: and the more you're able to control people, Like the 670 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 4: guy that I grew up with. His shit changes every year. 671 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 4: He has a totally new thing every year. 672 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: New Year's Eve. 673 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 3: If he just writes neurals, that's a resolution and. 674 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 4: It's completely different, Like it'll be religious one year, and 675 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 4: it'll be sci fi another year, and it'll be political 676 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 4: another year. Like it literally completely changes. And then if 677 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 4: you actually read it, it is fully word salad. But 678 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 4: like if you're not reading it closely, it might seem like, oh, 679 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 4: interesting language. He must know some things, but like when 680 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 4: you actually start to break it down, it means nothing. 681 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 4: And there's something in your podcast a woman you interviewed, Tanya. 682 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 2: Who talks about how she stopped. 683 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 4: Believing this is before your parents' time, right, Yeah. I 684 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 4: thought it was so fascinating because she talks about how 685 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 4: she and another woman had to translate his books into French, 686 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 4: which meant she had to actually look at the language 687 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 4: and analyze it. And she was like, this doesn't mean anything. 688 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 4: If you have to translate something, you have to actually 689 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 4: like break down what the words mean and breaking it 690 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 4: was so interesting that that was what like, yeah. 691 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mentioned this in the series too. I 692 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: think the thing that I could not come to grips 693 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: with was this idea of not just ubiquity that he presented, 694 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: this like sort of ubiquitous consciousness, this ubiquitous awareness, but 695 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: his unique ownership of it, which is I think back 696 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: to your point about like moving the goalpost. Oftentimes in 697 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: these high control groups, we find people who are presenting 698 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: a version of reality that they alone have access to exactly, 699 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: and so that reality can shift according to their whims 700 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, and they're whimsical and they. 701 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 2: Are women out of controls. 702 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: Wow, yeah it is. No one has ever referred in 703 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: my knowledge to Franklin Jones as whimsical, but I love it. 704 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 3: I just want to say something before we move on 705 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 3: that you know, when you can speak different languages, you 706 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 3: use different parts of your brains, and people say like 707 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 3: I'm funny in this language, I'm not funny in this language, 708 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 3: or you know, it's very interesting to me. And there's 709 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 3: somebody and the Two by Twos who was like I 710 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 3: believed in it in English, but not. 711 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: Whoa in Italian? 712 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 3: You know what I mean, Like their brain was just 713 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 3: like not online for it. And then there was another 714 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 3: person in the two by Twos that I really want 715 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 3: to have on who had a stroke, and he was like, 716 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 3: I can't believe in this anymore. I just can't access 717 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 3: the part of my brain that believe. Fascinating, It's very fascinating. 718 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 3: So this woman translating it to French, I'm assuming she 719 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 3: was also just turning on a different side of her 720 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 3: brain that actually had critical thinking built into it, and 721 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 3: was like, what the fuck is this shit? 722 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is quite remarkable, like the way 723 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: that we can sort of be able to disentangle. 724 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, we should all have to learn a new language 725 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 3: to process are. 726 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: Amazing, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, I love that. 727 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 4: I was going to say, before joining a new religion, 728 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 4: you have to learn it in another language, yeah. 729 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: Of your choice. Yeah, yeah like that. 730 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 731 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 4: Anyway, we don't have team talking about words, but I 732 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 4: do find the words. I find it very interesting what 733 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 4: words bring out for us emotionally and like by default 734 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 4: maybe in our native language versus like how we would 735 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 4: process it. 736 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 2: So fascinating. 737 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: Well, ye oh, I mean to that point, Like I 738 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: was going to mention earlier that like he had this 739 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 1: doctrine that he ard this tape. One of those tapes 740 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: was called the Baptism of Immortal Happiness. 741 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 2: Love that title I mean. 742 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: It's such a great title. It really does feel like 743 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: it gets you there, you know. But I remember listening 744 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: to it when I was young, and I couldn't get 745 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: past the idea that some of the things he said 746 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: in there felt like I would never know. I almost 747 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: like intuited before I could really understand or contemplate if 748 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: there was any sort of manipulation related to a high 749 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: control group. In that moment, I recognized, I think, or 750 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 1: what I was tussling with was this idea of moving 751 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: the goalpost, which was everything about the way that he 752 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: said it. He said I know it, and when he 753 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: meant it, he meant like the great truth of reality, 754 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: I know it and you do not, absolutely, and all 755 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: miracles are potent in my heart. So I've come here 756 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: to give you everything. And he says it in this 757 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: very kind of whimsical poetic way that he could do, 758 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: like it almost felt like he was a Thespian, you know. 759 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: He had this kind of like Shakespearean way of talking sometimes, 760 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: and I remember hearing that and being like, what how 761 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 1: does he give it to me? And then I know it? 762 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: But then I don't know it because he knows it, 763 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: like my brain couldn't put those things together, Like I 764 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: forget if it was like the name of one of 765 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: his talks or like something that he said, but this 766 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: idea that like you can't get there from here, and 767 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: like I am the way to myself. Yeah, And I 768 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, so let me get this straight. 769 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: So to get to you, you have to give it 770 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: to me. But I can't be you because you're over 771 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: here and I don't get it. But once I get it, 772 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to be you. But I'm not you, like I. 773 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 2: Ah, what a my fuck? 774 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, which brings us, of course to orgies. 775 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 2: Of course, naturally that's the next step. 776 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: You know, Like when when there is all this word salid, 777 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 3: when there is all this complicated stuff, there's usually a 778 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 3: man having sex with a lot of women or at 779 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 3: least taking their money. 780 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 2: But usually there are sex. 781 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's dive into that. So can you tell us 782 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 3: a bit about the orgies. 783 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: Well, there definitely was very little documentation about what happened 784 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: inside of these private parties that Jones would have for decades, 785 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: But what was widely understood from anecdotal reporting from people 786 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: who were behind closed doors in these rooms is that 787 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: there were some pretty wild drug fueled parties that would 788 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: be referred to as considerations. It wasn't exclusive to every 789 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: event where a consideration was taking place or a gathering, 790 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: but the idea was that a select group of followers 791 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: were privately partying with Jones, sometimes deep into the night 792 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: and for days on end, and there was all kinds 793 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: of sexual experimentation that happened during that time, and we 794 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: talk about it in the series. Numerous people have pointed to, 795 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: including on the record in you know, civil complaints, the 796 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: idea that Jones was manipulating those scenarios to like pair 797 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: other people up with each other who weren't together, like 798 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: people who were married having to have sex with other people, 799 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: all kinds of sort of you know, out of pocket. 800 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: I don't even know how to describe it, but you know, 801 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: like organizing or you know, or puppeteering orchestrating these events. 802 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: And the idea was somehow that this was going to 803 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: break them out of their own attachments because a big 804 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: part of what we were raised in the group to 805 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: believe through Jones was that like the ego, something we 806 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 1: just think of as our sense of identity, as a 807 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: literal physical being that I can see in touch and 808 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: feel is a problem. That it is the problem, that 809 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 1: the perception that you have one is a problem, and 810 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: everything you do to preserve that ego is a problem. 811 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: They would call it like a contraction, that the ego 812 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: was this literal physical contraction, which is such a clever 813 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: way of disambiguating nuance from uncomfortable situations. 814 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: So you can say from your gut. 815 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 4: It's like, this is good for you to challenge anything 816 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 4: I tell you to do that makes you uncomfortable is 817 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 4: actually good for you because like you less attached your ego. 818 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 3: And meanwhile, there's like what's her name, a beautiful playboy 819 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 3: model is part of this, you know, And yeah, he's 820 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 3: like cut to the chain. 821 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: Right. 822 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 3: To get through to all of y'all's egos, I need 823 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 3: to have sex with a lot of hot women. 824 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: Yes, And he had multiple wives at one point or 825 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: what he would you refer to as kind of like 826 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: they would they would take up issue with the idea 827 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: that I would refer to them as wives because they 828 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: had other names that weren't wives, that were spiritual in 829 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: some way. But ultimately he had multiple sexual multiple sexual 830 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: sexual partners. Yeah, over over many many years, and some 831 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: of them were plucked out of relationships with other people. 832 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 4: I know that the geographically moves around a little bit, 833 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 4: but just a sort of center where we are in space, 834 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 4: Like was this on a compound at this time? 835 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 2: And where was that? 836 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: Multiple compounds? Okay, so I grew up in the San 837 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 1: Francisco Bay area. They had little I don't even want 838 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,919 Speaker 1: to call it a facility. It was like an office 839 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: space in an industrial part of North. 840 00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 2: Marin, Okay. 841 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: I was saying, the Marine Ashram or sanga, whatever you 842 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: want to call it. And then they had a compound 843 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: in northern California that was like a wellness center that 844 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: had sort of gone into disrepair that they purchased, and 845 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: that was kind of the main place where people were 846 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,760 Speaker 1: located land. 847 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 2: It's in Lake County, so like a dorm kind of thing. 848 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 3: We usually see that these groups try to split up 849 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 3: families a little bit was that like kids over here, 850 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 3: adults over here. 851 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 2: Was that happening? 852 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: A lot of that was part of the group. So 853 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: like you know, people who were living in these comp 854 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 1: like there was one Lake County, there was one in Hawaii. 855 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: He purchased an island in Fiji. 856 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 2: I do that all the time. 857 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: Never Yeah, it's really easy. Apparently it's just swapped them 858 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,799 Speaker 1: out sweaters. But yeah, so he owned up quite a 859 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: bit of property, and of these places people lived permanently 860 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: and in sort of collective environments, but even quote unquote householders. 861 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:12,760 Speaker 1: People who lived in houses lived in oftentimes in shared 862 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: situations where they were with other members of the group. 863 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: And they had experimented with starting schools that didn't work 864 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: out very well for reasons that are unsurprising based on. 865 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 2: The trajectory of the group. 866 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: I did. I did well for a while. I went 867 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: to school until my freshman year of high school. My 868 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: parents were kind of on the periphery really until around then. 869 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 1: We were in the group, but not completely in it. 870 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: And then when I was in my freshman year of 871 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 1: high school, they became Franklin Jones's personal acupuncturist. And when 872 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: you were providing a service for Franklin Jones, you were 873 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: given very special in comparison to other members of the 874 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:03,839 Speaker 1: group because you had access to. 875 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 2: Him touching God's body. 876 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: Yes exactly, you're sticking needles in him. Yeah, So at 877 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 1: that point, whenever he needed them, they get a call 878 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 1: and they would want to go up there, and so 879 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: we increasingly had this pressure in our life to be there. 880 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: You know, we were increasingly asked to be closer to 881 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: where Jones was, and he was living on this compound 882 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: in northern California at the time, and so there was 883 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,240 Speaker 1: quite a bit of strife between myself and my dad 884 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: in particular during those years, because he wanted to be 885 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: with this guru. He wanted to be closer to him, 886 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,839 Speaker 1: and I wanted to play with my friends and go 887 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: to high school, go to high school and play basketball. 888 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 2: Were you in LA before that? 889 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:50,439 Speaker 1: No, we were in the Bay Area. 890 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:51,319 Speaker 2: Oh you were in the Bay Area. 891 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so but farther north. They wanted to kind 892 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: of be on the compound, be near him, be at 893 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 1: his call and all that. And at one point there 894 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: was speculation about him going back to Fiji and maybe 895 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 1: my parents would go with him. And I remember them 896 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: coming into my room one day and being like, do 897 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: you want to move to Fiji? And I was like, yeah, yeah. 898 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 2: Of course. 899 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: But things did start to come to a head as 900 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,720 Speaker 1: I got older, because I wanted to be with my friends. 901 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to have some normalcy in my life that 902 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,160 Speaker 1: I just never seemed to be able to get. I 903 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: always felt like I was on the periphery of every 904 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,120 Speaker 1: space that I was in because of the way that 905 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,399 Speaker 1: I was raised. And then, yeah, my dad at one 906 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: point sort of said to me, you're either going to 907 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: join the group or find another place to live. 908 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 4: Rewinding a little bit, like, so you were not living 909 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 4: on like a compound with the group when you were 910 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 4: a kid prior to that era, not. 911 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,120 Speaker 1: Then, Okay, Yeah, in the early days, we were part 912 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 1: of the group, and we would like go to the 913 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: services that they would provide on Sunday, which was you know, 914 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 1: in that industrial office space with like a meditation hall 915 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,839 Speaker 1: and a big picture of Jones on like the far 916 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,880 Speaker 1: end of it, and everybody would worship the picture and 917 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: sing songs had it. 918 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've gone to some churches before that like claimed 919 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,840 Speaker 4: to be non denominational, but then there'd be like a 920 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 4: cardboard cut out of the leader and I'm like, this 921 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 4: isn't a good sign you guys, like that's a red flag. 922 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Funny you mentioned that too, because speaking of cardboard cutouts. 923 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: When I was a kid living in San Francisco, when 924 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: I was up till about fifth grade, we lived in 925 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: San Francisco, we didn't really have a lot of visitors, 926 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: and I don't think I really appreciated why that was 927 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: until I got older and I remember, you know, I 928 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: can still picture it, like walking into the room. You'd 929 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: open the door to our garden apartment in cow Hollow, 930 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,239 Speaker 1: like sort of near the ocean on the north side 931 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 1: of San Francisco, and you know, you'd open the door 932 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: and there'd be a couch and on the couch was 933 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,400 Speaker 1: a life sized cardboard cutout of Jones on the couch 934 00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: sitting looking back at it. Cardboard sitting, that's crazy, Yeah, 935 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 1: And you sort of meditate on that picture as though 936 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,319 Speaker 1: he were sitting in front of you. 937 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 2: Wow. 938 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 4: You know there's a cardboard caught out of me that 939 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,960 Speaker 4: I was given to me as a gift one time. 940 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,319 Speaker 2: If we just kick it in the middle, it could 941 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,200 Speaker 2: be sitting and then you could both worship it, and 942 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,240 Speaker 2: then great, I see where this is going. 943 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,239 Speaker 3: I mean, I can relate to what it must have 944 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,319 Speaker 3: felt like as Kimala to go to school with quote 945 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 3: unquote normal children while you're living in a completely different 946 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 3: planet than them. 947 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,719 Speaker 2: Can you say a little bit about what that felt like? 948 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it just I think it took me 949 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: a very long time to feel at home in the world, 950 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,319 Speaker 1: the world and literally in the group, as is not 951 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,239 Speaker 1: uncommon with other groups, Like there were people who were 952 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,279 Speaker 1: followers of the group, who were in the community, and 953 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: then there was everybody outside of the group, which was 954 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 1: the world, which becomes very problematic when you're trying to 955 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: navigate a normal life to have to reconcile with twenty 956 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: years of living in this environment where the world was 957 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: something outside of your known safe experience, and so there 958 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,879 Speaker 1: was a lot of masking that was happening there as 959 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,080 Speaker 1: a young person going to public school, like where I 960 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't talk about what happened inside of my home. I 961 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: didn't volunteer that information to my friends. I went to 962 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 1: their house, and nobody thought much of it that they 963 00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,359 Speaker 1: didn't come to mind, you know, And so I think 964 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 1: I always felt like I was on the outskirts, and 965 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: making Dear Franklin Jones was a step in the direction 966 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 1: of asserting for myself what I wanted for the remainder 967 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: of my life, which was probably most of my life, hopefully, 968 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, because I made the show when I was thirty. 969 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: But I just felt that I did not want to 970 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: live the rest of my life with the sense that 971 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,080 Speaker 1: my story was not for better or for worse, weirder, 972 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: just like everybody else, something that existed within our cultural 973 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 1: narratives about life in America. So it was like really 974 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,239 Speaker 1: important to me to feel like I could tell that 975 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 1: story in a way that was relatable to people who 976 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 1: didn't grow up in it, and they could understand that 977 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 1: the things I was going through were very extreme versions 978 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: of things that they may have experienced themselves as young people. 979 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,719 Speaker 1: Because it really hurt, honestly, it hurt to live in 980 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,400 Speaker 1: a world where I felt like my story was not 981 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,920 Speaker 1: only a curiosity but just something that couldn't be understood. 982 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:41,560 Speaker 2: Right. 983 00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 3: It takes teenager dumb and turns the volume up, right, Like, 984 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,839 Speaker 3: I've never really thought of it like that, but that's 985 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,360 Speaker 3: essentially what it does. Because you are already are going 986 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 3: to feel different and like a loser and whatever. 987 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: But then you know, also try to explain that to 988 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 1: your buddies. 989 00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. 990 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 4: For me, my my belief system was a refuge from 991 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,479 Speaker 4: teenagerdom because I was like, oh, yeah, I have no friends. Well, 992 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 4: I'm chosen by God to bring about the end of days, 993 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 4: So fuck all of you who don't. 994 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 3: Want to be my friend. That brings up something you 995 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,240 Speaker 3: having no friends. Lola has something in common with Franklin Actually, 996 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,520 Speaker 3: oh very much. So they're both veloquests. 997 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,800 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and I also performed at the Ventriloquist Convention 998 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,840 Speaker 4: the same year that Paul Winchell performed. 999 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,760 Speaker 3: I didn't know you were gonna Paul Winchell. 1000 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,600 Speaker 2: Was brought up on the podcast The Share Paul Winchell, 1001 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,359 Speaker 2: So wow, wow, so you know who knew? Who knew? 1002 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,520 Speaker 3: But yeah, I guess talking about no friends, I was like, oh, yeah, 1003 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 3: and that's why Lola has no friends had had. 1004 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,959 Speaker 2: I also had no friends, but it was different circumstances. 1005 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,800 Speaker 2: I was dressed crazy. 1006 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,840 Speaker 1: You know. Since doing Dear Franklin Jones and continuing to 1007 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:05,040 Speaker 1: do like sort of long form documentary style storytelling and journalism, 1008 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,600 Speaker 1: obviously cults have come up again and again, and I 1009 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,160 Speaker 1: do feel like there's this quiet community of us, those 1010 00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,799 Speaker 1: of us who grew up in high control groups, cults, 1011 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,359 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call them. Where cult kids, right, 1012 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:26,239 Speaker 1: Like the sense that your your life is so distinctly 1013 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:31,360 Speaker 1: different than the experience of other people as to be unbridgable. 1014 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 1: And that's a very difficult feeling to have. To reconcile 1015 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,760 Speaker 1: with on top of trying to make sense of whatever 1016 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,480 Speaker 1: the fuck was going on when you were in that 1017 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,520 Speaker 1: group in the first place. And I remember having this 1018 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,879 Speaker 1: conversation with somebody who was in one of these sort 1019 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: of church cult groups in the Pacific Northwest, and we 1020 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,680 Speaker 1: met and I interviewed him for a series that I'm 1021 00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,399 Speaker 1: working on, and he at the end of us doing 1022 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: that series, or that the end of us doing the interview, 1023 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,560 Speaker 1: we both just had a moment where we kind of 1024 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,280 Speaker 1: broke the fourth wall. We were no longer interview e 1025 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 1: and interviewer, and we were two people who were cult kids. 1026 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,920 Speaker 1: And I think something I shared with this man that 1027 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:19,600 Speaker 1: I feel like I've shared with a lot of people 1028 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,040 Speaker 1: who have gone through being raised in a group like 1029 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: this is just having to carry the burden of explaining 1030 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,240 Speaker 1: yourself to the world because your identity is so inextricable 1031 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,160 Speaker 1: from the ideology that was imposed upon you that you inherited, 1032 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,279 Speaker 1: that you didn't go on a spiritual vision quest to 1033 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: do like I wish I could have been like my 1034 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: dad and done some ascid and seen the other side, 1035 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,239 Speaker 1: but I wasn't. I was born to two parents who 1036 00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,239 Speaker 1: were convinced that the world was a very particular way 1037 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,759 Speaker 1: and that there was a man behind the curtain who 1038 00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: was all of us, and that we needed to worship 1039 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:04,360 Speaker 1: him and to reconcile that with a world that saw 1040 00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: this person oftentimes as dangerous as a pariah, whatever you 1041 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 1: want to call it. Like, that's a very that's a 1042 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,399 Speaker 1: very tough thing to have to live with, and I 1043 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,719 Speaker 1: just I just hope that my story, in other people's 1044 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: stories of growing up in these groups, helps to make 1045 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,920 Speaker 1: people feel a little bit less alone about those of 1046 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: us who did. 1047 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,839 Speaker 2: Go through that, you know, totally, totally. I mean there 1048 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,200 Speaker 2: are so many of us. 1049 00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, It's like I would never have thought when we 1050 00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,120 Speaker 4: first started the podcast, I was like, oh, well, fine, 1051 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 4: guess it's no problem. But like the amount of people 1052 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:44,680 Speaker 4: who have had some kind of manipulative or charismatic person 1053 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,759 Speaker 4: like leading their childhood or high control group or a 1054 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,520 Speaker 4: fucked up religion, Like there's so many of us out there, 1055 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,320 Speaker 4: which you wouldn't think that because it feels like such 1056 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 4: this fringe thing, but like, how many people do we 1057 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,359 Speaker 4: know at this point? Like it's and now random at 1058 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,000 Speaker 4: parties people will be like, oh yeah, I mean too, 1059 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,400 Speaker 4: you know like we're coming out of the woodwork. 1060 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah right, exactly. 1061 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:09,520 Speaker 2: All right. 1062 00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,279 Speaker 4: So we're going to leave part one with Jonathan there 1063 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,320 Speaker 4: for now, come back next week for part two, and Megan, 1064 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:21,080 Speaker 4: it's time for the question, the question being would you 1065 00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:22,440 Speaker 4: join this cult? 1066 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:29,320 Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, that's what mark. Can I say? Psychedelics? 1067 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:30,160 Speaker 4: Uh? 1068 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:37,320 Speaker 3: Community? I'm yeah, I'm susceptible to this one. I could 1069 00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:37,840 Speaker 3: see this for you. 1070 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,240 Speaker 4: His parents being on this like journey, the spirituality journey, 1071 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:42,960 Speaker 4: and they're like, they're meet cute. 1072 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all calling my name. 1073 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,000 Speaker 3: So as always, I'm just gonna lock myself in my room, 1074 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,960 Speaker 3: not talk to anyone, and stay out of cults. 1075 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 4: I think that sounds like a great idea. Don't speak 1076 00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:58,160 Speaker 4: to anyone. 1077 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,080 Speaker 3: I won't theismotic I missed that. Next week's episode we 1078 00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 3: get even deeper. It's really great. We can't wait to 1079 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,720 Speaker 3: see you come back for it. Rate us five stars 1080 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,920 Speaker 3: if you're feeling the New year's resolution to give some 1081 00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:17,200 Speaker 3: good energy and as always, remember to follow your gut, 1082 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,440 Speaker 3: watch out for red flags. 1083 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:26,800 Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye bye. This has been 1084 00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 2: an exactly right production hosted by. 1085 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 3: Me Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth Our Senior producer 1086 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 3: is ge Holly. 1087 00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,360 Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 1088 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,800 Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker 1089 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,000 Speaker 3: is Patrick Kottner. 1090 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,640 Speaker 2: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church. 1091 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark 1092 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 3: and Daniell Kramer. 1093 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 4: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast 1094 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 4: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast. 1095 00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,200 Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation. 1096 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,560 Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trust mepod at gmail dot com. 1097 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,120 Speaker 4: Trust me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1098 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,200 Speaker 4: you get your podcasts,