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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Brian Coberger charged in the

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Speaker 1: mirrors of four beautiful university students now in isolation, with

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Speaker 1: a sporty new look for trial, sending so called fans

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Speaker 1: over the edge. Who are these people? I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: And she was very frantic, and she was asking me

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Speaker 2: if I had talked to Kaylee. Katie's follows directly voicemail

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Speaker 2: circling Maddie.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's answering.

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Speaker 3: It's ringing and ringing, ring, ringing.

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Speaker 2: So we return on the TV and we see live

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Speaker 2: news coverage at Kids out Play. Hero Kaylee and Maddie

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Speaker 2: are both a quadrant of homicide.

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Speaker 1: When I hear that parents being informed their child is dead,

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Speaker 1: not from a car accident, which is bad enough, not

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Speaker 1: some other type of accident, but murdered in their own

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Speaker 1: bed and their own home. You send your child away

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Speaker 1: to college with all these hopes and dreams, all your love,

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Speaker 1: all your energy, all your money, everything you've poured into

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Speaker 1: that child. To hear that, and now I've got to

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Speaker 1: hear the man charged in four murders a quadruple homicide,

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Speaker 1: has a quote sporty new look, can I see the mugshot?

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Speaker 1: Please look at this. That's right, Brian Coberger's new mugshot,

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Speaker 1: seemingly tantalizing his so called fans. How can there even

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Speaker 1: be fans of a guy charged in for murders and

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Speaker 1: brutal murders. Murder bad enough, But you have, for instance,

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Speaker 1: the DC snipers who shoot at a distance, the people

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Speaker 1: are never even the victims, not even real to them.

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Speaker 1: And then you have somebody like Coburger allegedly who up

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Speaker 1: close and personal reassures his victim I'm here to help,

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Speaker 1: and then guts them like an animal at the slaughterhouse.

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Speaker 1: Him a sporty new look, my rear end. But you've

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Speaker 1: got to see what his fans are saying. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of Facebook pages and other pages devoted to Coburger.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a look at fan reactions to the mug shot.

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Speaker 1: This is real? Is this real? He's so handsome, hot,

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Speaker 1: like a movie star. Why is he not smiling? He

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Speaker 1: looks like a Zaddi, which is a hot man, charismatic

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Speaker 1: and the look of confidence. I'm not seeing any stress.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you one thing. I don't want them

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Speaker 1: on my jury. What he looks handsome, hot, like a

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Speaker 1: movie star. He's a zaddy. The look of confidence. I'm

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Speaker 1: not seeing any stress. I just happened to pick those comments.

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Speaker 1: They go on and on and on. I just has

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Speaker 1: anybody seen the crime scene photos that home on King's Road.

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Speaker 1: If you looked at it from the outside, there is

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Speaker 1: literally blood pouring down the side of the foundation. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: joining me in an all star panel to help me

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Speaker 1: make sense of what I am hearing, but straight out

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Speaker 1: to renowned psychoanalysts joining us from Beverly Hills, author of

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Speaker 1: deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. Doctor Bethany, I know you've done some very

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Speaker 1: intensive analysis with me on how women fall for somebody

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Speaker 1: like this. It's as old as Charles Manson and his followers,

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Speaker 1: people that fell in love and married. Oh, the Menendez

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Speaker 1: brothers who thought Ted Bondy was really cute. What is

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Speaker 1: wrong with these people? It only emboldens Coburger.

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Speaker 3: You know, Nancy.

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Speaker 4: What illuminated this topic the most to me was an

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Speaker 4: important prison study where the interviewed women who were in

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Speaker 4: love with famous in mates like Mendez Brothers, Richard Ramirez,

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Speaker 4: the Nightstalker, the Pillows strangler.

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Speaker 3: And what they found were two things.

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Speaker 4: One is that the women refused to put their thoughts

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Speaker 4: together about the crime. They had never read the men's

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Speaker 4: rap sheets. They insisted that they did not know the

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Speaker 4: realities of the case.

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Speaker 3: On the other hand, many of these these.

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Speaker 4: Women actually took secret pleasure in the crime, thought that

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Speaker 4: the women had it coming to them, or that, in

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Speaker 4: the case of the Menendez brothers, that the parents deserve

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Speaker 4: to be shot. So these fanatics, Nancy, I would guess

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Speaker 4: that they're taking pleasure in the crime. They think those

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Speaker 4: kids had it coming to them. These are not nice people.

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Speaker 4: They're idealizing Coburger almost like one would idealize an evil

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Speaker 4: cult figure.

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Speaker 1: Let me go to Joseph Scott Morgan, joining US Professor

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Speaker 1: Forensics Jacksonal State University, author of Blood Beneath My Fate,

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Speaker 1: host of an you hit series Body Bags with Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Excuse me, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, your

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Speaker 1: resume is as long as I seventy five. But what

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Speaker 1: matters to me the most is that you are a

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Speaker 1: death investigator and you have literally investigated thousands of death scenes. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you heard what doctor Bethany just said, did you know

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott? You probably don't because you're actually working and busy.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that there are multiple, for instance, Facebook

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Speaker 1: groups set up to support Brian Coberger, not support the

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Speaker 1: families of these victims. Not them, No, not the family

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Speaker 1: of Ethan Chapin, of Xanna Kunodle, Madison Morgan, Madison Morgan

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Speaker 1: and Kelly Gonsoalves. No, not to support them, but to

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Speaker 1: support Coberger.

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Speaker 5: Let me ask you a question real quick, Nancy, did

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Speaker 5: you know that blood actually has an aroma of its

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Speaker 5: aunt and when you.

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Speaker 1: Walk intical or do you don't want to answer? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I maybe enough homicide sayings where just the smell is

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Speaker 1: it reeks?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's a I've often described it as kind

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Speaker 5: of a sickly sweet metallic smell. And once that gets

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Speaker 5: into your brain, once you see physically see it, and

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Speaker 5: you experience that, uh, you know, just from a visual standpoint,

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Speaker 5: and you take you take measure of what happened in

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Speaker 5: these environments. I would say that these individuals that would

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Speaker 5: you know, bow at the feed of someone like this

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Speaker 5: or promote them in any way, have never heard the

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Speaker 5: screams of families they've never been witnessed to an absolute

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Speaker 5: slaughter before, because if they had, If they had, they

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Speaker 5: would not be so quick to support someone that is

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Speaker 5: even that it's even being implied that they may have

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Speaker 5: had something to do with this. This is beyond the pale.

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Speaker 5: It's disgusting on so many levels because they don't understand.

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Speaker 1: What true pain is describe. And this is with the

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Speaker 1: backdrop of fan pages. That's what they are. Fan pages

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Speaker 1: set up to support brain Coburg. And don't worry, he'll

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Speaker 1: get his mits on a tablet, just like Merlin did

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Speaker 1: with his shirtless selfies. He's going to go online. He's

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Speaker 1: going to see this so called fandom, this fan support.

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Speaker 1: The reality of that crime scene should make everybody tuck

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Speaker 1: their tail between their legs and run for the heels.

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Speaker 5: Explain, yeah, when you see the scene, and we will,

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Speaker 5: and those that will be present on this jury eventually

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Speaker 5: will and they take the measure of the horror of that.

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Speaker 5: I think that a lot of people are going to

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Speaker 5: look back retrospectively, maybe those that support an individual like

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Speaker 5: this and say, what in the hell was I thinking

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Speaker 5: at the time, Or maybe they don't, Maybe they don't

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Speaker 5: have a sense of that. But I tell you this,

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Speaker 5: when you take the full measure of this and what

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Speaker 5: havoc and hell was reaked upon these four innocent college

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Speaker 5: students not too dissimilar from these students that I have

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Speaker 5: here at Jacksonville State that I see every single day

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Speaker 5: with hopes and dreams, and they have an expectation of

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Speaker 5: peace and safety. I don't know that people will be

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Speaker 5: able to fully appreciate it, because it is going to

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Speaker 5: be the stuff of the worst horror movies we could ever.

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Speaker 1: I think what doctor Bethany said is correct, and as

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Speaker 1: I say so often when I'm making a legal argument,

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Speaker 1: let's follow your comment through to its logical conclusion. Bethany

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Speaker 1: just told us Joe Scott that a lot of these

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Speaker 1: fangirls are not thinking through Oh he's so handsome, Oh

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Speaker 1: he's a zaty, he's a hotty, blah blah blah. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you bring him home, don't come to your house. Wait,

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Speaker 1: will you get that blank stare looking at you late

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Speaker 1: one night? So they're not thinking through this guy that

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Speaker 1: they are accolating online and crushing on to. They're not

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Speaker 1: thinking through who he really is and what he's really

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Speaker 1: accused of. Okay, everybody brace for impact. Not only has

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Speaker 1: Coburger sported a new look, but he's also demanding a

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Speaker 1: special wardrobe. Listen to Steve Gonsalves.

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Speaker 6: This isn't a wall collar crime people.

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Speaker 1: This is this is people. You work your.

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Speaker 6: Whole life to get them to go to college. Everybody

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Speaker 6: has a dream of their children going to college. You

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Speaker 6: trust the community, you trust the school, You send them off,

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Speaker 6: and then they get killed while they're sleep that night.

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Speaker 3: In their bags.

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Speaker 6: And we're going to seat this guy like he just

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Speaker 6: like traded insider trading of his own company stocks.

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Speaker 1: It's not white called the solve his family. Speaking to

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Speaker 1: our friend with us now, Chris McDonough. But listen, there's more.

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Speaker 6: The person who did this crime looked at one of

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Speaker 6: the victims and said, I'm here to help you. If

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Speaker 6: that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that

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Speaker 6: you could ever hear of. That shouldn't be rewarded with

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Speaker 6: the suit and.

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Speaker 1: A fresh haircut every time.

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Speaker 5: That's wild.

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Speaker 1: That's wild.

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Speaker 2: We've been told that he does have shopples around his

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Speaker 2: knees or whatnot.

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Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, that's I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be hidden crime stories with Nancy Grace demanding

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Speaker 1: a special wardrobe, joining me renowned attorney Brian Stewart joining

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Speaker 1: us attorney at Parker Maconcole. Just so you know, the

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Speaker 1: Gabby Potito family lawyer, Brian, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would let a defendant, even though I

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Speaker 1: knew they were completely guilty, go into court wearing prison blues,

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Speaker 1: prison orange stripes, handcuffs, shackles, nothing in front of a jury.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even risk it with him walking down the

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Speaker 1: hallway in case a juror was wandering around. Why believe

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Speaker 1: it or not, you can get a reversal for that.

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Speaker 1: Probably not a reversal, but it's possible. And in a

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Speaker 1: death penalty case, yeah, you're looking at a reversal. So

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Speaker 1: I would keep in my office clothes and in different

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Speaker 1: sizes jackets, all blue jackets for the defendant to put

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Speaker 1: on if he didn't have street clothes to protect God

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Speaker 1: willing my guilty verdict. But really a whole new wardrobe.

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Speaker 1: What in the hay well.

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Speaker 7: I think it is totally expected and normal. The defense

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Speaker 7: attorney would want Brian to be able to appear in

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Speaker 7: street clothes. It's the impression that he gives to the judge,

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Speaker 7: and then later the jury is really important and he

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Speaker 7: doesn't want to be dressed like a criminal or a prisoner.

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Speaker 7: And I would anticipate that the judge will grant that

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Speaker 7: motion and let him wear street clothes. The judge will

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Speaker 7: want to bend over backwards to be fair, to remove

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Speaker 7: bases for appeal, and so I would definitely expect him

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Speaker 7: to allow Brian to wear street clothes at trial, so

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Speaker 7: that doesn't seem strange.

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Speaker 1: I know, as you said, Brian, I guess you're on

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Speaker 1: a first name basis. Now that's right, you heard me. Ry,

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Speaker 1: the Idaho student murder suspect Brian Coberger, has petitioned the

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Speaker 1: judge for a courtroom wardrobe exception. Is bringing to mind

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Speaker 1: another defendant. Does anyone recall the name Anna Delvy aka

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Speaker 1: Anna Sorkin, the fake heiress that built friends and associates

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Speaker 1: out of well over a quarter million dollars? Well, she

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Speaker 1: threw a wrench at the judge listen.

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Speaker 8: In a Seroken's legal team not only begged that Sarroken

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Speaker 8: be allowed to change out of her jail uniform for trial,

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Speaker 8: but even hired a professional stylist to dress the fake

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Speaker 8: aires Srokan wears designer dresses and suits for a majority

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Speaker 8: of the trial, but when her defense attorneys provide more

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Speaker 8: affordable outfits from H and M or Ann Taylor, Sorokin

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Speaker 8: throws a fit and refuses to attend court. To judge

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Speaker 8: order Sirrokan to appear for court anyway. The judge order

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Speaker 8: Soroken to appear for court anyway, and her white blouse

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Speaker 8: and black slack ensemble is added to the Instagram page

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Speaker 8: at Anadelphi court looks.

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Speaker 1: Does anybody see what's happening here? And a Sorkin, the

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Speaker 1: fake heiress who built friends and associates out of will

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Speaker 1: over a quarter million dollars who just was on Dancing

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Speaker 1: with the Stars and whined about it, saying, dance with

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Speaker 1: the Stars take advantage of her for fame. Girl, you

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Speaker 1: are not famous, you are infamous, that said the trend.

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Speaker 1: Everything she wore showed up on a highly traveled Instagram page,

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Speaker 1: and now coburger has legions of Facebook fans and more

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Speaker 1: joining me. Senior investigative reporter with The Independent, Andrea Cavalier, Andrea,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. My ears are bleeding

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Speaker 1: from what I am hearing. Facebook support groups a special wardrobe,

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Speaker 1: a sporty new look that makes him look like a Zaddy.

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Speaker 1: Has the world turned upside down Cavalier. The man is

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Speaker 1: charged with four bloody knife murders.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it's disgusting. We get comments all the time

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Speaker 9: we post a picture. When we posted the mugshot, you know,

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Speaker 9: people went crazy. They loved the look and him showing

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Speaker 9: up in court going to you know, he wants to

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Speaker 9: be in street clothes, he wants to be in a suit.

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Speaker 9: It makes sense, you know, And we're still going to

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Speaker 9: be getting those comments about his look.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is now a longtime friend and colleague. You

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Speaker 1: can find him where he created the Cold Case Foundation,

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Speaker 1: former homicide detective and host of a YouTube channel where

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Speaker 1: I first found him on this case, the Interview Room

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Speaker 1: on YouTube. Chris McDonald, Chris, just hearing the Gonsalvast family

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Speaker 1: speaking is just makes me feel ill. And the fact

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Speaker 1: that they are having to fundraise money to get to

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Speaker 1: the trial a trial is going to last at least

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Speaker 1: six weeks, and support themselves to be there. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: tell you a story I was just talking about this

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Speaker 1: morning when my fiance was murdered. This is everybody knows

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Speaker 1: that story. But this is I never thought of it

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Speaker 1: that much. But we would travel every day to the

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Speaker 1: trial over two hours, closer to three hours one way,

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Speaker 1: and my father, who worked for the railroad, and my mom,

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Speaker 1: who's the payroll clerk, would take off work. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was completely out of it. I already dropped out

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Speaker 1: of school, and it was a blur to me. I

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Speaker 1: would be in the back seat. It's seriously a blur.

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Speaker 1: I would occasionally look up, I wouldn't know where we were,

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Speaker 1: and I'd just start crying again. I had to lay

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Speaker 1: down in the back seat. And we get to the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: I don't even remember going in. I can't real it''s

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Speaker 1: a horrible blur. And I'm thinking that was my fiance.

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Speaker 1: But now I have children. Imagine them having to raise money,

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Speaker 1: leave their home, leave their jobs, leave their friends, their

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Speaker 1: other family, and go to Boisey, find a place to live,

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Speaker 1: and go to that god forsaken courtroom every day to

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Speaker 1: look at crime stein photos of their child slaughtered. I mean,

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Speaker 1: did anyone think about that before they granted a change

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Speaker 1: of any.

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Speaker 10: Apparently not, Nancy, And you know the depth of that pain,

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Speaker 10: as you know, and what the parents are going through

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Speaker 10: and I'm just not talking about you know, Christy and Steve.

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Speaker 10: I'm talking about all of the parents. There are eight

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Speaker 10: of them, and to see him, you know, propped up

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Speaker 10: in such a fashion that their existence doesn't matter. These

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Speaker 10: four victims, the court left them down, in my opinion,

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Speaker 10: in terms of not hearing the totality of the argument

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Speaker 10: that the state should have taken on and say, look,

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Speaker 10: this is a hardship on all of these people. Let's

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Speaker 10: consider that heavily. And you know what came out of

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Speaker 10: that hearing and what came out of that decision, judge

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Speaker 10: Judge said in the decision, we're not equipped to handle

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Speaker 10: this case. Oh my gosh, where were you for a

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Speaker 10: year and a half. You could have fixed it quickly,

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Speaker 10: and then the parents could have prepared.

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Speaker 1: I understand, having tried capital cases before, the importance of

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Speaker 1: an impartial jury, and I'm going to get to that.

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Speaker 1: It's not just a factual issue. It's a legal issue.

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Speaker 1: And I've had to make very hard decisions when it

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Speaker 1: comes to changing any decisions I like. But I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about right now this is doing to the

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Speaker 1: victim's family. Then I'll get into the legalities and the

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Speaker 1: transport of Coburger. Doctor Bethany Marshall helped me out here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even remembering that ride, which a lot of

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Speaker 1: it I don't remember, even remember that. Remembering that ride

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Speaker 1: to the courthouse for Keith murder trial is just very upsetting.

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Speaker 1: But then when I overlay what these families are going through,

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Speaker 1: it's their child. I mean, in my world, I made

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Speaker 1: it very clear to my husband, poor David, that once

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Speaker 1: they came, they are number one. They are the focus

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Speaker 1: my reason for living. And I'm sure these families felt

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Speaker 1: the same way. Did I tell you I met Ethan's

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Speaker 1: mom at the last crime com I thought I recognized her.

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Speaker 1: She was coming down a long hallway to come speak

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Speaker 1: to me. I was meeting with Johnny Depp's lawyer, and

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Speaker 1: she struck me because she's beautiful, but she seemed to

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Speaker 1: have an inner light about her. She just kind of

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Speaker 1: like glowed, and she is at a very I don't

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Speaker 1: say peaceful, but she's at a spot where she's trying

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Speaker 1: to help other people, or at least she was at

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Speaker 1: that juncture that could change through all of this. But

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Speaker 1: I imagine all of their will just being crushed out

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Speaker 1: of them just to get to the courthouse. On top

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Speaker 1: of everything else they've got to deal with.

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Speaker 4: You know, Nancy, there is so much wrong about this

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Speaker 4: entire situation, how this court case is being managed. First

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Speaker 4: of all, it's traumatic enough just in and of itself

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Speaker 4: that they're going to have to look at those crime

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Speaker 4: scene photos. Did you know that one of the hallmarks

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Speaker 4: of post traumatic stress is avoiding seeing anything that reminds

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Speaker 4: you of the original crime.

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Speaker 3: They're going to have to do quite the opposite.

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Speaker 4: They're going to have to view the crime scene photos

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Speaker 4: day after day. They're going to have the stress of

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Speaker 4: financial difficulty. I had to raise money. There's something even

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Speaker 4: more sinister, Nancy, and that is that I believe Brian

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Speaker 4: Coberger is enjoying this, and the family is going to

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Speaker 4: have to watch him smile.

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Speaker 3: Did you notice that when he sits next to the.

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Speaker 4: Blonde attorney, he looks to her every once in a

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Speaker 4: while and he has a little smile, almost like he's

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Speaker 4: on a date. This purp loved being surrounded by crime.

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Speaker 4: He studied crime, he taught crime. He was obsessed with crime.

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Speaker 4: Now whereas he he's in a court of law, this

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Speaker 4: is his heyday, this is his payday. He is achieving

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Speaker 4: what he wanted. This is like being on a date

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Speaker 4: for him. Remember, Brian Coberger was kicked out of a

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Speaker 4: bar for approaching women. Women around him thought he was creepy.

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Speaker 4: He's not going to get kicked out of the courtroom, Nancy.

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Speaker 4: He can sit there in his street club, flirt with

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Speaker 4: the attorneys, and just enjoy the proceedings.

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Speaker 3: That's what the family is going to have to witness.

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Speaker 11: Brian Coberger's defense team conducted a phone survey of hundreds

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Speaker 11: of potential jurors in Leaytok County, asking them multiple questions

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Speaker 11: about their knowledge of the case. According to the defense team,

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Speaker 11: there is a bias against Coburger, revealed in answers to

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Speaker 11: questions such as what would happen if Coburger is not convicted?

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Speaker 11: Potential jurors in Laytok County answered that question with they'd

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Speaker 11: burn the courthouse down. Outrage would be a mild description.

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Speaker 11: They would probably find him and kill him, and there

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Speaker 11: would likely be a riot, and he wouldn't last long

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Speaker 11: outside because someone would do the good old boy justice

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Speaker 11: and finally riots parents would take care of him.

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Speaker 1: Now, let me remind everyone that those threats to kill

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Speaker 1: Coburger if there's not a guilty verdict were harvested by

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Speaker 1: his defense and an inappropriate juror polling phone call. That

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Speaker 1: a questionnaire of sorts that was sent to potential jurors,

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Speaker 1: and those are some of the answers. They say that

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Speaker 1: they got that the people of Moscow would storm the

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Speaker 1: courthouse like an angry mob, basically drag Coburger out and

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Speaker 1: kill him. Do I think that would happen? No, But

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Speaker 1: confronted with that evidence that was generated by the defense

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Speaker 1: in support of their change of venue motion, the judge

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Speaker 1: granted it. But before we put the cart before the horse,

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Speaker 1: before we get to the trial in Boise, the defendant,

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger is in Boise. How did he get there? Listen?

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Speaker 12: Coberger is secretly transferred to the Ada County Jail on

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Speaker 12: an Idaho State Police plane. Leta and Ada County sheriffs

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Speaker 12: say they decided to work with the state police to

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Speaker 12: make the transfer as safe and efficial as possible. The

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Speaker 12: six hour drive to Boise presented plenty of opportunity for

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Speaker 12: complications like a blown tire or road closures.

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Speaker 1: The two hour early.

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Speaker 12: Morning flight mitigated those concerns and went smoothly. According to

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Speaker 12: Ada County Sheriffs Captain Ryan Jensen.

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Speaker 1: Joining US now is an expert in prisoner location and transport.

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Speaker 1: IRV Brandt is with US former Senior Inspector US Marshall

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Speaker 1: Service International Investigations Branch I emphasize that for a reason.

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Speaker 1: Formerly with DOJ Office of International Affairs, he's been an

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Speaker 1: attache to other countries for the US, including Kingston, Jamaica

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Speaker 1: and more. Latest book Forever Solo, Night of the Dragon

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Speaker 1: in his Jack Solo series, j I wonder who that's

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Speaker 1: patterned after. IRV Brandt. Let me understand something. Did Brian

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Speaker 1: Coburger get flown to Boise and a private plane? What

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Speaker 1: did he get? A ginger ale and a bag of

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Speaker 1: peanuts to go with that? What did they ask him

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Speaker 1: be for chicken? Did he go in a private plane, Nancy?

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Speaker 13: He went with a plane that was owned by the

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Speaker 13: state Police. And to answer your questions, no peanuts, no

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Speaker 13: in flight dinner, no in flight movies. He was shackled

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Speaker 13: leg irons, waist chains, probably body armor since they do

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Speaker 13: have some kinds of threats against them. But this is

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Speaker 13: the County's correctional Divisions work with the state Police and

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Speaker 13: the counting Correctional Divisions. Have what's called the Correctional Emergency

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Speaker 13: Response Team cert officers, and they're highly trained and this

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Speaker 13: type of prisoner movement. They'll also be there for the trial.

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Speaker 13: You may not see them, but they're they're they're protect everyone,

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Speaker 13: including the judge, the jurors, the witnesses, and they are

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Speaker 13: experts in this field. Change of venue is not uncommon

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Speaker 13: and they handle these types of matters all the time, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, doctor Bethany, I'm listening to IRV Brandt, a US

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Speaker 1: Marshall who's transported hardened criminals, murderers, dope lords, you name it,

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Speaker 1: all over the world and flown with them. What the

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Speaker 1: last thing we want is, for instance, a courthouse escape

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Speaker 1: or a transport escape. All you have to do is

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Speaker 1: go on to Google and look put in prisoner transport escape.

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Speaker 1: It just goes on and on. Page four, page five,

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Speaker 1: page six. It happens all the time, especially when they're

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Speaker 1: in a vehicle of any sort. Just through trickery, through force,

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Speaker 1: they get away. But I assume, doctor Bethany, that you

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Speaker 1: don't want them on a private I mean a commercial plane.

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Speaker 1: There's always a have you noticed people get lulled into

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Speaker 1: a false sense of complacency they're watching the in flight movie.

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Speaker 1: They're working, they're this, They're that. Why, Bethany, do they

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Speaker 1: in the movies always let the person go to the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Don't they know something bad is going I'm like, wet yourself.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to the bathroom, don't care why.

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Speaker 3: It's when the scary music starts playing. Yeah, you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 3: he's not going to.

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Speaker 4: The bathroom on this plane. I can tell you that

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Speaker 4: much for sure. For what Earth Brant is saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: this security is so tight. Here's what I'm concerned about, though.

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Speaker 4: Whenever there's a prison break or somebody breaks out of

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Speaker 4: a prison van, you know, how it happens is that

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00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 4: they've seduced somebody in the prison system or on the

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Speaker 4: outside to help them. A famous case comes to mind

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Speaker 4: of a prison nurse who fell in love with an inmate.

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Speaker 4: They plotted together to have him escape, and it was

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Speaker 4: when he was being transferred to court. She brought guns

431
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 4: and she shot one of the officers that was putting

432
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 4: him into the car. That was a couple of decades ago.

433
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 4: I remember covering that story. So, Nancy, you know who

434
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 4: knows Brian Koberger. We have all these strange, weird fanatics,

435
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 4: who thinks he's handsome and he's like a rock star,

436
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 4: and now he's getting on a plane. I would just

437
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 4: be concerned about who's in his sphere, who's in his orbit,

438
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 4: who is he communicating with, who might want to collude

439
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 4: in some kind of a breakout of sorts.

440
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: So Brandt, I guess you don't give the accused killer

441
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: a potty break.

442
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 13: No, Nancy, you don't. And it doesn't matter how long

443
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 13: the flight is. Like like I said, I've come from

444
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 13: South America straight, you know, into New York, into the Northeast,

445
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 13: and you just have to deal with it. Marshall, I

446
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 13: have to go to the bathroom.

447
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: We'll hold it.

448
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 13: We'll be in New York in seven hours.

449
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: Open Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

450
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: A million people can tell me, don't let it consume you,

451
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: be patient, don't think about it, just you know, But

452
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: I am me, I am I can't. This is my daughter,

453
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: this is her best friend, this is two other people.

454
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: Kids, And.

455
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: You can tell me till the cows come home. And

456
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: I can't stop just being consumed by it.

457
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: I don't know how the parents were staying so strong.

458
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: Did you hear that doctor, Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us

459
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: side of Beverly Hills author Now on Peacock that was

460
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: Christy Gounsov was speaking. Did you notice that she says,

461
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: this is my daughter. She's saying it was my daughter

462
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: in a way not acknowledging it to make my head.

463
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 13: Hurt that.

464
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: Her beautiful girl is dead. You know, for the longest time,

465
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: I couldn't say Keith is dead dead, the dead word.

466
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: It's just too much. And now they're dealing with having

467
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: to raise money online to go live in Boise the

468
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: duration of the trial, to put with with Coburger being

469
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: a Zaddy online and having Facebook fans. I don't see

470
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: any Facebook fans for the victims. But did you catch.

471
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 4: That what she just said, Yes, Nancy, I did notice

472
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 4: that she's speaking about her daughter like she's still alive,

473
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 4: but her daughter is alive.

474
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: In her mind.

475
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: She has a duty to her daughter. She wants to

476
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 4: find out what happened. She wants to bring justice for

477
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 4: her daughter. You know, I've said so many times on

478
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 4: this show, and we grieve. It's not just the loss

479
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 4: of the past, it's the loss of the future of

480
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 4: what you anticipated you would have with that person. She'll

481
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 4: never see her daughter getting married, She'll never have granddaughters

482
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 4: or grandsons. With this with her daughter, she'll never see

483
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 4: her get into her career. Her mind is struggling to

484
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 4: come to terms with the loss of that future that

485
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 4: she's been dreaming of from the day her daughter was born,

486
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 4: and now she's having to struggle to come up with

487
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 4: money to drive to court. Do you know the type

488
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 4: of fragility that introduces into all of us when we're

489
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 4: financially stressed, and this on top of a court case.

490
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 4: It's really a tragedy and a travesty that the location

491
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 4: was changed.

492
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: On top of it all, Hey, listen, I understand why

493
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: the judge change the location. If hey, she the judge

494
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: does not change the location where there have been there's

495
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: been evidence of threats on the defendant in that location.

496
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: You're looking at a big fat reversal on appeal, which

497
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: means the family would go through all of this pain,

498
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: move to Boise for the duration, suffer, and then if

499
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: there is a conviction, you're looking at a reversal. So

500
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: I believe, as much as I don't like it, that

501
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: the judge did what he had to do. This had

502
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: to be moved, But do I have to hear about

503
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: Coburger's new look and his privileges behind bars? Listen?

504
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 14: Brian Coburger is held in the maximum security section of

505
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 14: the Ada County Jail in one of its eighty eight

506
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 14: solitary cells. Coburger reportedly will not have any additional security,

507
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 14: following the same procedures for recent high profile cases. All

508
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 14: inmates receive a mainline vegan or kosher meal to their

509
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 14: cell three times a day. The jail has recently cut

510
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 14: down their menu as it operates at or above ninety

511
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 14: two percent capacity. Many inmates sleep on the floor due

512
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 14: to the overcrowding. Inmates are permitted to purchase snacks and

513
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 14: other small items from the commissary once a week.

514
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: What he's got a private room? You don't even get

515
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: that in college at fancy, exclusive Ivy League colleges a

516
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: private room. Brian Stewart, high profile lawyer joining us out

517
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: of Idaho. Why does he get a private room? Why

518
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: don't I just book him at the RITZ? Well?

519
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 7: Having a private room in jail is not necessarily a

520
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 7: good thing or an enjoyable thing. It makes it easier

521
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 7: for the jail, for sure, to maintain security for Colberger

522
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 7: and for the other inmates, and having him mixed with

523
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 7: other people in the population is just going to create

524
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 7: a problem for them and a security issue. So I

525
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 7: would imagine that it's mostly for the convenience of the

526
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 7: jail and the people who work.

527
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: You know what, Brian Stewart, I say, why you win

528
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: so many cases? You totally maybe you should be on

529
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: Dancing with the Stars, not Anna Sorkin a Ka Delvy.

530
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: He's danced right around it. He has a private room.

531
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: And did you see what we were just showing. It's

532
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: kind of like their co op area where they're all

533
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: sitting around having snacks, A couple of people snoozing on

534
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: the side on sofa palets. I mean, and has anybody

535
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: beside me seen the commisary list. Let's see it control room,

536
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: let's se if you get put that up on the screen.

537
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: There you go, item bundles. What's that? Tuna shredded chicken,

538
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: salami sticks. I would like that. I would like somebody

539
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: to bring me some cheetos, some ramen, pretzels, chips, twigs,

540
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: Snickers okay now snickers, blueberry Danish. They could probably get

541
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 1: to eat it up. Let me please call on you again,

542
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: Professor of forensics. Can you remind me about how fresh

543
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: that crime scene was. It's brutal.

544
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 5: The you're you know, when these images come out and

545
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 5: when we actually hear these crumpsing texts give testimony relative

546
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 5: to this, they're going to talk about, I don't know,

547
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 5: one of the terms that's probably going to come to

548
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 5: mind is like a super saturated mattress that's saturated with blood.

549
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 5: You're going to see blood deposition on the floor of

550
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 5: the walls. And not to mention the horror that will

551
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 5: be displayed on displayed on each on the bodies of

552
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 5: each one of these precious children, you know that are

553
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 5: now gone. And I take exception with what I've seen

554
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 5: in the news because relative to descriptions of these injuries,

555
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 5: they talk about, well, they were stabbed, and I know

556
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 5: that's very It has a certain economy to it when

557
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 5: you write it. But they're not just stabbed, Nancy, they're slashed.

558
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 5: As a matter of fact, this poor one, one child

559
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 5: had her hand cut all the way down to the

560
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 5: ligaments in her hand. So don't tell me about freshening up.

561
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 5: Don't tell me about you know, honey bun and all

562
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 5: these other things. It's absolutely disgusting, but the truth is

563
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 5: going to come out, and it's going to come out

564
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 5: a trial.

565
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 2: I don't feel like we're even close to a trial date.

566
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: I know that when they do, it's going to be

567
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: far away, but I don't think they're close to setting it.

568
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 3: And it eats me alive.

569
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: We're trying to determine when the court date is going

570
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: to be. There's all over the map. The judge is

571
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: even thinking about a bifurcated trial where part of the

572
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: case is presented in May and the other part is

573
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: presented in September. Hey, judge, that's a bad idea. That

574
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: is unfair to the state because by the time the

575
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: defense starts to state, the jury will have forgotten everything

576
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: the state said back in May. Don't do that. That

577
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: said to Angia Cavalier, investigative reporter with The Independent, Andrew,

578
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: what more can you tell me about the preparations for trial?

579
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 9: That's right at this moment. The trial is set to

580
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 9: start in jail. But there have been talks about, you know,

581
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 9: the judges thinking about you know, the jurors and the

582
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 9: families and you know, being away for three months during

583
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 9: the summer.

584
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 3: It's possible it could start in May. It's possible it

585
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: could start in September.

586
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 9: But as for preparations getting too Boise for these families,

587
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 9: it's there's always going to be something. There are airbnbs

588
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 9: and hotels, but they are filling up, I say, Joe.

589
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan nodding his head, What do you mean, Joe Scott.

590
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 5: Well, what I mean is that one of the rationales

591
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 5: for moving this case. It's not just security, but you know,

592
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 5: you think about the tainting of the pool, that there

593
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 5: would be, perhaps in some magical alternative universe, someone in

594
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 5: Ada County, Idaho that would not have heard of this trial. Nancy,

595
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,479
Speaker 5: let me tell you something real quick. I just got

596
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 5: back from Crime con London in the UK. I was

597
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 5: there for sixteen days, traveling about the country and met

598
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 5: a lot of people. Guess what the number one case

599
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 5: was that they asked me about in London was It

600
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 5: was Idaho. They all wanted to know there's nowhere you

601
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 5: can go under the sun that someone has not heard

602
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 5: about this trial. So the idea that you know you're

603
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 5: going to find a group of people in Boise that

604
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 5: have not heard about this case is absolutely ridiculous to

605
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 5: my way of thinking, because it's everywhere, It's everywhere and

606
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 5: one other thing very quickly. I remember the Derek Chauvron case.

607
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 5: I covered it for eighteen straight days on air, every

608
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 5: single day, and I saw even those jurors coming in

609
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 5: for the voider. It was a circus. It was an

610
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 5: absolute circus with the news media there. The same thing

611
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 5: is going to happen here. You're going to see these

612
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 5: people coming in and out of the court at the

613
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 5: jury pool, and they're going to have an idea of

614
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 5: what they're faced with if they get on this jury.

615
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 5: So I don't know. I just don't understand the rationale.

616
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, How did it get so bass ackwards? From

617
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: Facebook fan pages supporting Coburger to private iPad vegan meals,

618
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: endless hours of visitation with his lawyer, a sporting new look,

619
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 1: a private wardrobe. How'd all this happen?

620
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 4: Ye know?

621
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: And answer?

622
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 10: That is the million dollar question today for our society.

623
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 10: I think, you know, one of the biggest problems here,

624
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 10: in my opinion, is the threat level for Brian Koberger

625
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 10: actually went up because they have moved him to a

626
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 10: larger jail facility. They've thrown him in the hole ie

627
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 10: to shoe, and he's going to have to start thinking

628
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 10: about dodging socks full of bars of soap, because these

629
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 10: inmates are going to look at him and get cred

630
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 10: what they call kred, you know, credibility. If they can

631
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 10: beat him with those bars of soaps in those socks, then,

632
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 10: by golly, those Now those jailers have to be thinking

633
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 10: how do we keep them away from the main line,

634
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 10: just like this picture right here, how do we keep

635
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 10: them away.

636
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: From this room?

637
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 10: And that puts the officers at risk, That puts the

638
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 10: court at risk, because somebody right now is thinking about

639
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 10: Brian Cooberger, not only on the outside, but on the inside.

640
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 10: And that's why this guy is locked down with his honeybun,

641
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 10: you know, snack options.

642
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: We wait for the judge to finally schedule the trial

643
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: so justice can unfold in a court of law. But

644
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: now we stop and remember an American hero, Deputy Shareff

645
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: Andrew Peerey, el Paso County Sheriffs, Colorado, shot and killed

646
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: in a line of duty, a US Army vet. Survived

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Speaker 1: by wife Megan and two children. American hero Deputy Shareff

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Speaker 1: Andrew Pieri. Thank you to all of our guests for

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Speaker 1: joining us, but especially to you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,