1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:23,156 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 2: His first afternoon at Lawrenceville, he began by shooting fourteen 3 00:00:27,076 --> 00:00:30,236 Speaker 2: foot jump shots from the right side. 4 00:00:31,276 --> 00:00:35,276 Speaker 3: That's John McPhee, now ninety three years old, the grand 5 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 3: Master of literary nonfiction. He's reading for us from the 6 00:00:39,156 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 3: first book he ever published, back in nineteen sixty five. 7 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:45,436 Speaker 3: He called the book A Sense of Where You Are. 8 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:50,316 Speaker 3: It was about a Princeton University basketball player named Bill Bradley. 9 00:00:51,516 --> 00:00:54,236 Speaker 2: He got off to a bad start, and he kept 10 00:00:54,276 --> 00:00:58,276 Speaker 2: missing them six in a row, hit the back rim 11 00:00:58,316 --> 00:01:00,596 Speaker 2: of the basket and bounced out. 12 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:04,076 Speaker 3: The writer had talked the player into letting him watch 13 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:06,956 Speaker 3: his private workout. It was just the two of them 14 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:09,356 Speaker 3: alone in some high school gym that Bradley he had 15 00:01:09,396 --> 00:01:10,316 Speaker 3: never been in before. 16 00:01:11,596 --> 00:01:15,556 Speaker 2: He stopped looking discomfited and seemed to be making an 17 00:01:15,596 --> 00:01:18,796 Speaker 2: adjustment in his mind. Then he went up for another 18 00:01:18,876 --> 00:01:22,356 Speaker 2: jump shot from the same spot and hit it cleanly. 19 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 3: I'm eleven years old when I read what John McPhee 20 00:01:28,516 --> 00:01:32,436 Speaker 3: wrote about Bill Bradley. But I don't care about John McPhee. 21 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:36,836 Speaker 3: I only want to know more about Bill Bradley. At 22 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:39,036 Speaker 3: this point, he's in the NBA and I've set up 23 00:01:39,036 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 3: a poop in my bedroom to create the upcoming nineteen 24 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:45,716 Speaker 3: seventy two finals, which I care about only because Bradley 25 00:01:45,756 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 3: will be in them. I play out this entire two 26 00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:51,836 Speaker 3: hour game. I also serve as the play by play 27 00:01:51,836 --> 00:01:56,236 Speaker 3: announcer into a tape recorder I've set up on my desk. 28 00:01:56,836 --> 00:02:00,716 Speaker 3: Nicks down by one, five seconds left, Bradley in heavy traffic, 29 00:02:00,796 --> 00:02:05,116 Speaker 3: Bradley dribbles, left, Bradley shoots. It's good, Bradley got away 30 00:02:05,156 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 3: from McMillan jack. I'm a little man with a private obsession. 31 00:02:11,196 --> 00:02:13,516 Speaker 3: After each game, I sit down and listen to my 32 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:17,596 Speaker 3: two hours of take to create box scores, to see 33 00:02:17,596 --> 00:02:20,956 Speaker 3: how well Bill Bradley did, even though I had just 34 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 3: done it. This is how I really begin as a 35 00:02:24,996 --> 00:02:29,516 Speaker 3: sports fan with emulation. I want to be like Bill Bradley, 36 00:02:30,516 --> 00:02:32,196 Speaker 3: which is why I bother to find a whole book 37 00:02:32,196 --> 00:02:33,116 Speaker 3: about him and read it. 38 00:02:34,396 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 2: Four more shots went in without a miss, and then 39 00:02:37,756 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 2: he paused and said, you want to know something, That 40 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:44,476 Speaker 2: basket is about an inch and a half low. 41 00:02:45,636 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 3: The main thing I learned from the book is that 42 00:02:47,756 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 3: if I want to be Bill Bradley, it won't just happen. 43 00:02:50,476 --> 00:02:54,236 Speaker 3: It won't be easy. When Bradley was himself eleven years old. 44 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:58,036 Speaker 3: He shot baskets until his fingers bled. By the time 45 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:00,796 Speaker 3: he got to Princeton, he'd shot so many different basketballs 46 00:03:01,156 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 3: on so many different hoops. Then when he missed, he 47 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:06,676 Speaker 3: knew that the problem wasn't him, it was the hoop. 48 00:03:07,836 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 2: Some weeks later, I went back to Lawrenceville with a 49 00:03:10,276 --> 00:03:14,676 Speaker 2: steel tape, borrowed a step ladder, and measured the height 50 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 2: of the basket. It was nine feet ten and seven 51 00:03:18,476 --> 00:03:23,036 Speaker 2: eighths inches above the floor, or one and one eight 52 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 2: inches too low. 53 00:03:25,996 --> 00:03:28,436 Speaker 3: Much later, I'd realize that all the time I thought 54 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:30,556 Speaker 3: I was learning how to be Bill Bradley, I was 55 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:35,476 Speaker 3: actually learning how to be John McPhee. But that's another story. Anyway, 56 00:03:35,756 --> 00:03:38,396 Speaker 3: eleven year old me would never believe what I'm about 57 00:03:38,436 --> 00:03:41,516 Speaker 3: to do. When you were a player, when did you 58 00:03:41,596 --> 00:03:44,996 Speaker 3: first have the sense that kids were looking at you 59 00:03:45,956 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 3: as an example of excellence? 60 00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 4: Thousands, literally thousands of fathers would bring their son or 61 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 4: mothers or daughter and father bring a daughter or whatever 62 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:59,156 Speaker 4: to the game, and they'd always say, you know, you 63 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 4: want to be like Bradley. Well, I always disagreed with that. 64 00:04:04,796 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 3: I'm talking with Bill Bradley for real. 65 00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:10,636 Speaker 4: No, do you want to be like the father? You 66 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 4: don't want to be like Bradley, But do you want 67 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:15,676 Speaker 4: to be like Bradley in terms of the values that 68 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:19,796 Speaker 4: you see exemplified in the development of his game, Because 69 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:21,676 Speaker 4: that's what you want to do in your life, to 70 00:04:21,716 --> 00:04:24,876 Speaker 4: develop your skills to their highest and best years. 71 00:04:33,876 --> 00:04:38,276 Speaker 3: I'm Michael Lewis, and this is against the rules this season. 72 00:04:38,476 --> 00:04:42,156 Speaker 3: I'm looking at what's happening to the American fan and 73 00:04:42,236 --> 00:04:45,196 Speaker 3: in this episode, what happens when Bill Bradley's ideal of 74 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:48,596 Speaker 3: the game collides with the way other people think of it. 75 00:04:51,676 --> 00:04:55,396 Speaker 3: Bill Bradley always seemed to have a plan Basketball was 76 00:04:55,436 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 3: just a piece of it before he got to Princeton. 77 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 3: During his senior year in high school, he actually signed 78 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:04,676 Speaker 3: with Duke, but then the summer before college he went 79 00:05:04,716 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 3: on a trip to Europe. 80 00:05:06,796 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 4: And on one of those days he toured Oxford and 81 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 4: I walked into christ Church Quad and looked around and 82 00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:16,556 Speaker 4: thought to myself, I got to figure some way to 83 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:17,356 Speaker 4: get back here. 84 00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 3: When he got home, he looked into it, learned about 85 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 3: Rhodes scholars and that Princeton generated the most of them. 86 00:05:25,476 --> 00:05:28,116 Speaker 3: So he wrote to Duke and told them he wasn't coming. 87 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 3: Duke was pissed. Princeton scrambled to find him a bed. 88 00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:36,756 Speaker 3: Bradley then nearly flunked out of the college. 89 00:05:37,076 --> 00:05:39,796 Speaker 4: I came from a small town high school in ninety six. 90 00:05:40,276 --> 00:05:44,356 Speaker 4: I had so called low college board scores, and I 91 00:05:44,556 --> 00:05:47,556 Speaker 4: certainly had no reference for French or biology. 92 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:49,716 Speaker 1: The two of that gave me problems. 93 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 3: Basketball had already taught him that the harder you work, 94 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:57,116 Speaker 3: the better you get. He proceeded to spend so many 95 00:05:57,116 --> 00:06:00,116 Speaker 3: hours in the Princeton library that he would graduate with honors. 96 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:04,636 Speaker 3: Midway through his senior year, he was offered the Rhodes Scholarship. 97 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 3: The New York Knicks then took him with the first 98 00:06:07,356 --> 00:06:11,476 Speaker 3: pick of the entire nineteen sixty five draft. Bradley thanked 99 00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 3: them politely, then left for Oxford to study for years. 100 00:06:15,796 --> 00:06:18,156 Speaker 3: Even back then, people who didn't know Bill Bradley would 101 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 3: hear about him and say, oh, it must be an act. 102 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:23,396 Speaker 3: But if it is an act, it's an act He's 103 00:06:23,396 --> 00:06:27,476 Speaker 3: going to play his entire life. He totally embodies the 104 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:34,996 Speaker 3: values he talks about, sacrifice, discipline, selflessness, resilience. He's never 105 00:06:35,076 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 3: going to lose his Princeton advisor says about him, do 106 00:06:38,756 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 3: you know just how hard it is to defeat a 107 00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 3: sixteenth century Puritan elate. In his second year as a 108 00:06:46,796 --> 00:06:50,436 Speaker 3: Rhodes scholar, Bill Bradley realizes how much he misses basketball, 109 00:06:51,556 --> 00:06:53,516 Speaker 3: and so he calls the Knicks and he tells them 110 00:06:53,996 --> 00:06:56,476 Speaker 3: that after he's done with his scholarship and a stint 111 00:06:56,476 --> 00:06:58,996 Speaker 3: in the Air Force, he's coming back to New York 112 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:03,316 Speaker 3: to play, and Knicks fans go crazy. But his first 113 00:07:03,396 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 3: year on the team, he bombs he's really just no 114 00:07:07,356 --> 00:07:11,756 Speaker 3: good a price For those two years in an Oxford library, 115 00:07:13,156 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 3: for the first time in Bradley's life, the fans turn 116 00:07:15,596 --> 00:07:19,836 Speaker 3: on him. They bow him, they holler insults. One day 117 00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,716 Speaker 3: a fan actually spits on him, but because he's Bill Bradley, 118 00:07:23,796 --> 00:07:27,316 Speaker 3: he turns the other cheek, works his ass off, and improves. 119 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:30,196 Speaker 3: Over the next six years, he helps the next win 120 00:07:30,196 --> 00:07:34,196 Speaker 3: two NBA championships, and the fans love him all over again, 121 00:07:34,996 --> 00:07:42,596 Speaker 3: now including me. When Bradley's done, they retire his jersey 122 00:07:42,676 --> 00:07:45,196 Speaker 3: and hang it from the rafters of Madison Square Garden. 123 00:07:46,836 --> 00:07:50,156 Speaker 3: Did fans in any way enter your imagination as a player, 124 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 3: They entered. 125 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:58,756 Speaker 4: Your imagination by the noise I love the roar of 126 00:07:58,836 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 4: the crowd, and it wasn't a fan, It was twenty 127 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:07,476 Speaker 4: thousand fans when your team came together and did something 128 00:08:07,516 --> 00:08:11,876 Speaker 4: amazing and the garden roof almost came off. And so 129 00:08:11,916 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 4: the fans were instrumental in the experience for me as 130 00:08:16,196 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 4: a player, as a whole, not as individuals. 131 00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 3: The fans were the congregation recipients of a kind of 132 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 3: moral instruction which Bradley always honestly tried to supply. He 133 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:34,636 Speaker 3: always carried himself with this superhuman dignity. Even at peak fame. 134 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 3: He refused to endorse products. And then there was the 135 00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:42,396 Speaker 3: sordid underbelly in sports, which he someone managed to avoid 136 00:08:42,476 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 3: really noticing until well into his pro career. 137 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 4: We were ahead by six points and there were just 138 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 4: seconds left, and I shot and hit the shot, and 139 00:08:57,396 --> 00:09:01,396 Speaker 4: some people in the crowd bowed, and I asked afterwards, 140 00:09:01,396 --> 00:09:03,516 Speaker 4: I asked the trainer. 141 00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 3: Why were they buy? 142 00:09:05,876 --> 00:09:07,996 Speaker 4: We won by eight points, not six points? 143 00:09:08,036 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: That's good. 144 00:09:09,276 --> 00:09:12,236 Speaker 4: Oh, well, those are people gambling on the game. And 145 00:09:12,356 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 4: I thought, oh, that's sick, because for me, the game 146 00:09:16,796 --> 00:09:21,436 Speaker 4: was always about values. The idea of gambling on sports 147 00:09:21,556 --> 00:09:25,596 Speaker 4: was always something that was counter to the values of 148 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:26,076 Speaker 4: the sport. 149 00:09:28,396 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 3: Bill Bradley retires from basketball in nineteen seventy seven to 150 00:09:31,836 --> 00:09:35,076 Speaker 3: run for public office. He'd become one of New Jersey's 151 00:09:35,156 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 3: US Senators for almost two decades, and in that time 152 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 3: an argument would develop that no one really wanted to 153 00:09:41,996 --> 00:09:46,676 Speaker 3: have between Bradley's ideas about sports and American life and 154 00:09:46,716 --> 00:10:02,116 Speaker 3: what was actually going on in sports and American life. 155 00:10:03,956 --> 00:10:05,756 Speaker 3: When did you make your first sports bets? 156 00:10:06,116 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: Oh, my first sports bet was made. They're probably eighth, 157 00:10:09,796 --> 00:10:12,116 Speaker 1: seventh or eighth grade and in through high school, you know, 158 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:15,116 Speaker 1: just betting the parley cards. A buddy of mine used 159 00:10:15,116 --> 00:10:18,196 Speaker 1: to bring in these green parley sheets where you'd have 160 00:10:18,236 --> 00:10:20,436 Speaker 1: to pick a three for three, four for four, five 161 00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:23,516 Speaker 1: for five. You know, you bet five ten bucks. 162 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:27,316 Speaker 3: His real name is goadoon Kirollas, but he's always been 163 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:30,956 Speaker 3: known as Spanky, after a character from the TV show 164 00:10:30,996 --> 00:10:34,716 Speaker 3: The Little Rascals, which his mom loved. Spanky grew up 165 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:38,396 Speaker 3: in Jersey City, born the year before Bill Bradley became 166 00:10:38,436 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 3: the state senator. 167 00:10:40,036 --> 00:10:41,796 Speaker 1: He'd have one kid in the class the night of 168 00:10:41,876 --> 00:10:44,076 Speaker 1: one and you know, he'd win, like, you know, fifty 169 00:10:44,156 --> 00:10:47,236 Speaker 1: sixty bucks whatever, but most people lost. And then I 170 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 1: sort of realized. I'm like, hey, can I get in 171 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:51,036 Speaker 1: on this. The only thing I knew as a high 172 00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 1: school kid is the house always won, So I knew 173 00:10:53,396 --> 00:10:55,036 Speaker 1: it was unfair because I never won. 174 00:10:56,836 --> 00:10:58,756 Speaker 3: Spanky maybe had an edge over some of the other 175 00:10:58,836 --> 00:11:01,916 Speaker 3: kids at school because at home he was basically raised 176 00:11:01,916 --> 00:11:04,436 Speaker 3: on games of chance, just a. 177 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 1: Part of life. Every holiday we'd get together Christmas, New Year's, 178 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 1: you know, we'd sell it. We'd have dinner and then 179 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:11,676 Speaker 1: we'd whip out the cards. 180 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:13,516 Speaker 3: And we just play poker for actual money. 181 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:15,036 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for actual money. 182 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:17,596 Speaker 3: And so if you lost to your mom, she made 183 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:18,116 Speaker 3: you pay up. 184 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would just by this is my allowance 185 00:11:20,156 --> 00:11:22,516 Speaker 1: and everything. This is this is the real deal. There's 186 00:11:22,556 --> 00:11:24,836 Speaker 1: you know, my mom, and she taught me, you know, 187 00:11:24,876 --> 00:11:27,436 Speaker 1: a valuable lesson, don't gamble what you're not willing to lose. 188 00:11:28,596 --> 00:11:32,156 Speaker 3: Spanky gamble didn't Spanky lost until Spanky started to gamble 189 00:11:32,356 --> 00:11:34,996 Speaker 3: and win. By the time he entered high school, he 190 00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 3: was effectively running an illegal book of NFL parlays, not 191 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:42,036 Speaker 3: simple bets on which team wins and loses, but compound 192 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:44,876 Speaker 3: bets that give you like twenty to one odds if 193 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:48,476 Speaker 3: you say pick the winner of five different NFL games 194 00:11:48,876 --> 00:11:52,476 Speaker 3: and pay you nothing if you only get four, right, Parley, 195 00:11:52,916 --> 00:11:54,036 Speaker 3: they would have been illegal. 196 00:11:54,116 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you're in high school, one hundred percent. Yeah. 197 00:11:56,156 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 3: And so there's an illegal bookie in Hoboken, absolutely yes. 198 00:12:00,236 --> 00:12:03,436 Speaker 3: And so he is using what like some high school 199 00:12:03,516 --> 00:12:06,516 Speaker 3: kid as a sort of a salesman as a runner exactly, 200 00:12:06,676 --> 00:12:09,396 Speaker 3: as a as a runner and these things is you're 201 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:13,676 Speaker 3: getting distributed in your nobody, nobody stops it. 202 00:12:13,796 --> 00:12:16,116 Speaker 1: Nobody. Not only does nobody stopping it, you know, you know, 203 00:12:16,236 --> 00:12:17,836 Speaker 1: I'm not going to name names obviously, but you know 204 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:19,516 Speaker 1: there will be teachers that will fill out all day 205 00:12:19,596 --> 00:12:23,356 Speaker 1: cards and handle it, you know, you know what I mean. 206 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:25,676 Speaker 1: And it was a great school, big sports school, you know, 207 00:12:25,796 --> 00:12:28,516 Speaker 1: just a part of life gambling on sports, betting on sports, 208 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: the football games and stuff. So you know, that's what's 209 00:12:31,196 --> 00:12:31,716 Speaker 1: what we did. 210 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:33,956 Speaker 3: You're getting a different kind of education. 211 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:37,196 Speaker 1: And I absolutely from from from people that really weren't 212 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:39,756 Speaker 1: supposed to be teachers and stuff. But it just it's 213 00:12:39,796 --> 00:12:40,436 Speaker 1: just part of it. 214 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:46,876 Speaker 3: We're laughing. But Spanky is learning something. He's learning why 215 00:12:46,876 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 3: bookies exist. They always win. The kids all want to 216 00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 3: bet on the local teams and so the local bookies 217 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 3: shift the odds against them. Spanky sees the bookies exploiting 218 00:12:56,956 --> 00:12:59,596 Speaker 3: fan loyalty and decides he wants a piece of the action. 219 00:13:00,556 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 3: He takes the parlay cards from the bookie and gives 220 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 3: them to a barber. The barber passes them out to customers, 221 00:13:07,916 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 3: and the customers bet. Spanky then collects all the bets 222 00:13:11,156 --> 00:13:13,636 Speaker 3: from the barber, but instead of handing them all to 223 00:13:13,716 --> 00:13:17,756 Speaker 3: the bookie, he keeps some for himself, which is to 224 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:21,116 Speaker 3: say that by high school Spanky was a bookie. He 225 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 3: wasn't stealing the bookies money. He was stealing their business. 226 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 1: I won't want to wake up in the morning and 227 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: I can't wait to break the law today. But you know, 228 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: the money's the money I figured with gambling and with 229 00:13:31,796 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 1: book making, it's really not that bad. It's not like 230 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 1: I'm putting it under somebody's head and saying you got 231 00:13:36,116 --> 00:13:37,716 Speaker 1: a bet. You know, these are the ones that are 232 00:13:37,716 --> 00:13:39,156 Speaker 1: asking me, hey, you got the sheets in it? The 233 00:13:39,196 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 1: sheets ready this week? It was just, you know, like 234 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:44,396 Speaker 1: you're selling cracks to a crack at it. It's just 235 00:13:45,116 --> 00:13:46,196 Speaker 1: it was just so easy. 236 00:13:47,276 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 3: At the same time as Spanky's raking it in the 237 00:13:49,476 --> 00:13:53,156 Speaker 3: high school cafeteria. New Jersey Senator Bill Bradley is rising 238 00:13:53,196 --> 00:13:56,996 Speaker 3: to political prominence. He sponsored bills on healthcare and gun 239 00:13:57,036 --> 00:14:00,116 Speaker 3: control in the environment, but there was one issue he 240 00:14:00,156 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 3: hadn't really touched that was dear to his heart. What 241 00:14:04,396 --> 00:14:07,436 Speaker 3: got you interested in taking up gambling as an issue 242 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 3: when you were in the Senate. 243 00:14:09,756 --> 00:14:15,436 Speaker 4: I'd never done anything on sports. In fact, I wouldn't 244 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:18,556 Speaker 4: even talk about sports when I became a senator. You know, 245 00:14:18,916 --> 00:14:22,676 Speaker 4: I would never raise the issue of sports. Other senators 246 00:14:22,716 --> 00:14:25,756 Speaker 4: would want to talk sometimes about but I never raised 247 00:14:25,796 --> 00:14:29,956 Speaker 4: it because I wasn't trying to bring basketball into my 248 00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:32,116 Speaker 4: senate life and have it affect that. 249 00:14:33,236 --> 00:14:36,676 Speaker 3: But at some point Bradley couldn't resist. That point came 250 00:14:36,716 --> 00:14:38,916 Speaker 3: when he decided to write a book about the moral 251 00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:42,316 Speaker 3: influence of sports, values of the game he'd call it. 252 00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 4: I thought about how gambling really didn't celebrate those values 253 00:14:49,116 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 4: to the contrary, and so I passed this little bill. 254 00:14:53,996 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 1: It was not a big bill. 255 00:14:56,316 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 4: It was a little bill that banned sports petting in 256 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:03,596 Speaker 4: the states that didn't have it, and it was the 257 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:05,796 Speaker 4: law of the land, and I felt good about it. 258 00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:09,796 Speaker 3: At the time. A few states allowed better on sports, 259 00:15:09,836 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 3: but most didn't. Bradley's bill, the Professional and Amateur Sports 260 00:15:13,636 --> 00:15:17,356 Speaker 3: Protection Act, effectively banned it except in states where it 261 00:15:17,396 --> 00:15:22,236 Speaker 3: already existed, like Nevada. It was a weird law because 262 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 3: it didn't ban sports gambling directly. It banned states from 263 00:15:26,476 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 3: regulating it. But it accomplished what Bradley wanted to prevent 264 00:15:31,276 --> 00:15:34,796 Speaker 3: people from betting on sports. What were the values that 265 00:15:35,876 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 3: were kind of threatened or challenged by gambling. 266 00:15:40,196 --> 00:15:43,676 Speaker 4: I didn't want players to be Roulette chips. I wanted 267 00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:46,916 Speaker 4: to protect the purity of the game, the values that 268 00:15:46,956 --> 00:15:51,796 Speaker 4: were important to me, and gambling polluted that in a 269 00:15:51,876 --> 00:15:52,996 Speaker 4: very fundamental way. 270 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 3: How gambling did that was obvious to most of the Senate. 271 00:15:57,196 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 3: It encouraged athletes to throw games or rig them. It 272 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:03,756 Speaker 3: encouraged fans to think about their bets rather than the game. 273 00:16:04,636 --> 00:16:07,876 Speaker 3: It introduced money where money really didn't belong in sports. 274 00:16:08,396 --> 00:16:11,716 Speaker 3: The Professional Amateur Sports Protection Act passes in nineteen ninety 275 00:16:11,756 --> 00:16:14,916 Speaker 3: two with hardly a peep of protest or anything else. 276 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:17,956 Speaker 3: Once the Senators from Nevada are sure that they can 277 00:16:18,036 --> 00:16:19,996 Speaker 3: keep doing whatever they want to do inside their state, 278 00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:24,796 Speaker 3: opposition inside the US Senate totally vanishes. Outside of Nevada, 279 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:27,356 Speaker 3: it's illegal to be a bookie. It's okay to place 280 00:16:27,396 --> 00:16:29,036 Speaker 3: a bet with a friend, but it's against the law 281 00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:32,156 Speaker 3: to run a sports book. And America appears to be 282 00:16:32,236 --> 00:16:36,796 Speaker 3: simply pleased to have Bill Bradley's values embedded in its laws. 283 00:16:38,236 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 4: I thought this was very quiet. I mean, I thought, Okay, 284 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,396 Speaker 4: I passed the law. It's now illegal. That's the law land. 285 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 4: A few New Jersey casino people were pissed, but there 286 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 4: are a couple people Nobody came up to me, ever, 287 00:16:53,356 --> 00:16:55,196 Speaker 4: I said, why did you pass that casino? 288 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:55,476 Speaker 5: Bill? 289 00:16:56,116 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 3: Never, I want to pause for a moment to point 290 00:17:01,396 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 3: out how volatile our country is. No other culture on 291 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:08,956 Speaker 3: the planet experiences the same violent swings between virtue and 292 00:17:10,396 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 3: between freedom and repression, between fear and greed. Sports gambling 293 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:16,836 Speaker 3: is a good example of it. 294 00:17:17,996 --> 00:17:20,756 Speaker 6: Gambling has always been a part of American history. George 295 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 6: Washington bet on cockfights. 296 00:17:24,996 --> 00:17:28,636 Speaker 3: David Hill's a writer who grew up in Arkansas, like Spankey, 297 00:17:28,756 --> 00:17:32,276 Speaker 3: in a family of gamblers, so out of curiosity, he 298 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:34,276 Speaker 3: set out to write a book about the country's long 299 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:36,476 Speaker 3: relationship with this particular vice. 300 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:41,516 Speaker 6: Sports gambling really began with betting on foot races in 301 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:44,996 Speaker 6: early America, and that evolved into betting on the fights, 302 00:17:45,276 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 6: you know, first bare knuckle fights and then more sort 303 00:17:47,836 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 6: of sanctioned boxing matches which were really put on just 304 00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 6: so that people could gamble on them. 305 00:17:55,276 --> 00:17:59,516 Speaker 3: We don't seem to have sports ever without gambling on sports, 306 00:18:00,076 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 3: and Americans have always been fanatical gamblers. At the same time, 307 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:08,076 Speaker 3: Americans have always been extremely hostile to gambling. At the 308 00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:10,516 Speaker 3: turn of the last century, anti gambling forces got the 309 00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 3: upper hand for a while. 310 00:18:12,436 --> 00:18:15,316 Speaker 6: They shut down a lot of race tracks when they 311 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 6: passed these anti gambling laws, and without any horses to 312 00:18:19,036 --> 00:18:22,356 Speaker 6: bet on, the bookmakers who made their living booking bets 313 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:24,556 Speaker 6: on the horses went to the ballpark. 314 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 3: In other words, when Americans were told they couldn't bet 315 00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 3: on horses anymore, they figured out a way to bet 316 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:34,556 Speaker 3: on people. In horse racing, the odds aren't fixed until 317 00:18:34,556 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 3: the betting stops, and are driven by how much is 318 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:40,836 Speaker 3: bet on any given horse. If everyone bet on the 319 00:18:40,836 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 3: same horse, they wouldn't bother to run the race. In 320 00:18:43,596 --> 00:18:47,116 Speaker 3: baseball or really any other sport, that clearly wouldn't work. 321 00:18:47,756 --> 00:18:49,716 Speaker 3: The book he needed a way to attract interest in 322 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:52,676 Speaker 3: both teams before the game, even if one team was 323 00:18:52,756 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 3: obviously a lot better than the other. Enter an underrated 324 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:00,756 Speaker 3: American genius named Charles McNeil. 325 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:06,276 Speaker 6: He created this idea of the points spread, where you 326 00:19:06,276 --> 00:19:10,396 Speaker 6: would give the favorite a certain number of points that 327 00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:13,756 Speaker 6: they would have delay to the underdog, so that the 328 00:19:13,796 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 6: proposition between these two teams is as close to an 329 00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:20,236 Speaker 6: even money proposition as possible. Right, you're spotting the worst 330 00:19:20,236 --> 00:19:24,156 Speaker 6: team a certain number of points. And McNeil was a 331 00:19:24,196 --> 00:19:24,996 Speaker 6: pretty bright guy. 332 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:26,356 Speaker 3: Was he a Wall Street guy? 333 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:26,916 Speaker 1: He was? 334 00:19:27,036 --> 00:19:29,236 Speaker 6: Yeah, he was a Wall Street guy and worked in 335 00:19:29,436 --> 00:19:33,236 Speaker 6: finance as it was back then, right, and he saw 336 00:19:34,396 --> 00:19:37,036 Speaker 6: sports and the ability to bet on sports is just 337 00:19:37,116 --> 00:19:37,836 Speaker 6: another market. 338 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:41,756 Speaker 3: Once Americans learned to bet on people instead of horses, 339 00:19:41,796 --> 00:19:44,276 Speaker 3: it wasn't long before people started to fix the games. 340 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 3: Various point shaving and game fixing scandals plagued college basketball 341 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 3: in the years before, enduring Bill Bradley's college career. They 342 00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 3: obviously had an effect on Bradley. His law that prevented 343 00:19:56,676 --> 00:20:00,156 Speaker 3: states from legalizing sports gambling was to make just this 344 00:20:00,196 --> 00:20:03,236 Speaker 3: sort of thing a lot less likely to happen. But 345 00:20:03,276 --> 00:20:06,476 Speaker 3: one thing the law didn't accomplish to stop the betting, 346 00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 3: To stop spanky or like anyone else in New Jersey 347 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 3: who operated any illegal markets. 348 00:20:13,836 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 1: A bookmaker who needs to meet you on the corner 349 00:20:15,716 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 1: of forty sixth and seventh and hand you a bag 350 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 1: full of cash. And that's kind of what got my 351 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:21,916 Speaker 1: wife nervous, want my mom nervous. 352 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:25,116 Speaker 3: And you know, so this this literally happened. You actually 353 00:20:25,116 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 3: got given. 354 00:20:25,676 --> 00:20:28,796 Speaker 1: Cash, oh, all the time, all the time, got given cash, 355 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:32,196 Speaker 1: gave cash, received and gave cash all the time. 356 00:20:35,716 --> 00:20:49,956 Speaker 3: More on that in just a moment. Spankey graduates from 357 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:54,196 Speaker 3: high school, goes to Rutgers, graduates summa cum laude in 358 00:20:54,316 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 3: computer science and finance, all the while still betting on sports. 359 00:21:00,116 --> 00:21:03,636 Speaker 3: After college, he takes a job on Wall Street. It's 360 00:21:03,676 --> 00:21:06,196 Speaker 3: now two thousand and one, and he has computers and 361 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:10,716 Speaker 3: the Internet and access to illegal bookies across the country. 362 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:13,796 Speaker 3: He writes programs that allow him to in effect see 363 00:21:13,796 --> 00:21:17,836 Speaker 3: the entire national sports betting market. No one else is 364 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 3: doing this so far as he can tell. He alone 365 00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 3: can see that the booky in Pittsburgh has different lines 366 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:26,276 Speaker 3: on games than the bookie in South Florida, and that 367 00:21:26,436 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 3: neither one agrees with the booky and Hoboken. Spankey realizes 368 00:21:31,156 --> 00:21:34,236 Speaker 3: that he can exploit the different lines. Say, the New 369 00:21:34,316 --> 00:21:36,836 Speaker 3: York Giants are playing the San Francisco forty nine Ers, 370 00:21:37,436 --> 00:21:40,596 Speaker 3: and the Giants are favored, but the bookie in New 371 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:43,916 Speaker 3: York has them as seven point favorites and the bookie 372 00:21:43,916 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 3: in San Francisco has them as four point favorites. Spanky 373 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:50,116 Speaker 3: can bet on the forty nine ers in San Francisco 374 00:21:50,596 --> 00:21:53,476 Speaker 3: and bet on the Giants in New York. He's making 375 00:21:53,556 --> 00:21:57,316 Speaker 3: riskless bets. Whoever wins the game, Spanky will win at 376 00:21:57,396 --> 00:21:59,956 Speaker 3: least one of the bets. If the Giants win by 377 00:21:59,956 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 3: either five or six points, he wins them both. He 378 00:22:03,836 --> 00:22:06,756 Speaker 3: figures all this out while working on Wall Street. His 379 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 3: employer has no idea, and neither, it seems, do the bookies. 380 00:22:12,556 --> 00:22:15,076 Speaker 1: This is one of these things you start learning that 381 00:22:15,156 --> 00:22:17,996 Speaker 1: there's a bias depending on the geographic region, and then 382 00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:20,356 Speaker 1: you start picking up on these things and saying, my god, 383 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:24,076 Speaker 1: these discrepancies are real. Then you know it's just, you know, 384 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: just snowballs from there. 385 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:27,276 Speaker 3: Which you're doing, in a funny way, is exploiting fan 386 00:22:27,316 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 3: emotion that you got the fans in LA you want 387 00:22:30,396 --> 00:22:31,796 Speaker 3: to bet on the Lakers, and the fans in New 388 00:22:31,836 --> 00:22:33,756 Speaker 3: York I want to bet on the knicks, and they 389 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:35,076 Speaker 3: distort the odds. 390 00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and the book maker knows that the majority 391 00:22:38,996 --> 00:22:41,556 Speaker 1: of his customers are going to bet on that fan emotion, 392 00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 1: and that's when I come in and I just scoop 393 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:44,716 Speaker 1: up the value. On the other. 394 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:49,076 Speaker 3: Side, he's scooping up the values. And by two thousand 395 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:52,196 Speaker 3: and three, he's asking himself a question, why am I 396 00:22:52,276 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 3: wasting my time on Wall Street? Why not just quit 397 00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:57,156 Speaker 3: and become a full time sports gambler. 398 00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:00,436 Speaker 1: I had my mother in law, my mother, my brother, 399 00:23:00,516 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 1: and my wife's family all have individual conversations with me, 400 00:23:04,596 --> 00:23:06,796 Speaker 1: asking me if I was sure of this, or are 401 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:09,836 Speaker 1: you sure about this? Nobody gamble for a living or 402 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 1: you out of your mind? Spanky knows that's not true. 403 00:23:13,516 --> 00:23:16,996 Speaker 1: People do gamble for a living, lots of people. They 404 00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:18,036 Speaker 1: just don't advertise it. 405 00:23:18,396 --> 00:23:21,196 Speaker 3: But the Spanky's way of thinking, betting on sports isn't 406 00:23:21,236 --> 00:23:22,796 Speaker 3: any worse than working on Wall Street. 407 00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:25,836 Speaker 1: This isn't something that I just took on a whim. 408 00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:27,956 Speaker 1: I'm a risk averse guy. I want to make sure 409 00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 1: that it's going to work before I actually take that 410 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 1: step forward. 411 00:23:31,836 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 3: You're not betting on the sports in the sense that 412 00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:37,116 Speaker 3: you're not depending on your superior knowledge of sports. You're 413 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:38,796 Speaker 3: just arbitraging sports books. 414 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:39,556 Speaker 1: Exactly. 415 00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 3: He's becoming Bill Bradley's worst nightmare. In Spanky's world, the 416 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 3: games themselves are beside the point. He's no longer even 417 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:50,956 Speaker 3: watching the games, just the lines. 418 00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:54,756 Speaker 1: No matter what sport it was, underlying asset didn't matter, 419 00:23:55,036 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 1: it was just great. It was just printing money. At 420 00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:57,556 Speaker 1: that time. 421 00:23:58,276 --> 00:24:01,596 Speaker 3: He's no longer even doing anything illegal. There's no law 422 00:24:01,596 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 3: against placing a sports bet. The law simply forbids making 423 00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:08,276 Speaker 3: a book. It's the bookies he's using who are breaking 424 00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:11,796 Speaker 3: the law. And there's some differences between Spanky's new trading 425 00:24:11,836 --> 00:24:16,876 Speaker 3: business and his old job on Wall Street. What's the 426 00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 3: largest amount of cash you got handed or you handed over? 427 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 3: And what's the scariest situation you found yourself in. 428 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: The largest cash? You know? It was probably close to 429 00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 1: a million bucks? If I'm not you know it was 430 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 1: it was probably a million bucks. I was thinking of 431 00:24:34,956 --> 00:24:37,556 Speaker 1: those are a few went form between, But several hundred 432 00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:40,436 Speaker 1: thousands was always the case? Was it? Always? 433 00:24:40,436 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 3: What undred hundred dollar bills? 434 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:44,796 Speaker 1: Always? Yeah? Always, you know, I'll as somebody you don't 435 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 1: if the guy didn't like you, then he would give 436 00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:49,756 Speaker 1: you twenties and stuff and that would suck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 437 00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 1: Then you know what's drug money too. That's another thing, 438 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? You know, I remember picking 439 00:24:54,156 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 1: up a package I think it was seven hundred thousand, 440 00:24:55,956 --> 00:24:58,356 Speaker 1: and most of them was all twenties and tens, and 441 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:01,276 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is custing, this is definitely 442 00:25:01,356 --> 00:25:03,836 Speaker 1: drug warning or whatever it was. But listen, I'm just 443 00:25:03,836 --> 00:25:05,236 Speaker 1: a gambler picking up my winnings. 444 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:08,396 Speaker 3: So what were they handed to you in like a briefcase. 445 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:11,196 Speaker 1: Back, you know, in a bag it's a plastic bag, 446 00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:14,236 Speaker 1: or in a book bag or whatnot. I was dealing 447 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 1: with one guy and he goes, my boss wants to 448 00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:18,756 Speaker 1: see you first before he pays you. So I go 449 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:21,716 Speaker 1: and meet him at this like you know, abandoned restaurant that, 450 00:25:21,916 --> 00:25:23,916 Speaker 1: you know whatever. And that's a scary. 451 00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:26,396 Speaker 3: And then you know he's there in New Jersey. 452 00:25:26,476 --> 00:25:29,636 Speaker 1: This is in Jersey and North Jersey and it's in 453 00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:32,596 Speaker 1: a restaurant this and the soprano is his airing, yeah, 454 00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:37,556 Speaker 1: you know exactly. And the guy I think ran a 455 00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:39,996 Speaker 1: tanning salon or something or whatever it was. I don't 456 00:25:40,036 --> 00:25:43,236 Speaker 1: even remember, but I went to this restaurant, and then 457 00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:45,396 Speaker 1: you know, he goes, why should I pay you this money? 458 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:48,596 Speaker 1: And then I go because I wanted fair and square 459 00:25:48,636 --> 00:25:51,516 Speaker 1: and if I would have lost, I would have paid you. 460 00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:54,036 Speaker 1: And then he just looked me in the eye, and 461 00:25:54,316 --> 00:25:56,356 Speaker 1: you know, it was at that moment where you're thinking, 462 00:25:56,836 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 1: you know, am I going to walk out of here alive? 463 00:25:58,596 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 1: Like what's happening here? Like what are they doing? And 464 00:26:02,116 --> 00:26:03,396 Speaker 1: then he just looked at me and he goes, I 465 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:05,876 Speaker 1: believe you. And then he like motioned to the guy 466 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:08,476 Speaker 1: at another guy at the table, and the guy handed 467 00:26:08,516 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: me the bag, and that what's happened. 468 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:17,916 Speaker 3: Spanky's world maybe a little CD, but it has its 469 00:26:17,956 --> 00:26:21,996 Speaker 3: own values. They're just a bit different from Bradley's values, 470 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:26,036 Speaker 3: like keep your word and your mouth shut, see when 471 00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:29,076 Speaker 3: the odds are off and exploit them, take the right 472 00:26:29,196 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 3: end of any stupid bet. Spanky's good at all of this. 473 00:26:33,756 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 3: He makes more money as a sports gambler than he 474 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:39,316 Speaker 3: ever did on Wall Street. He's living his life in 475 00:26:39,356 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 3: the shadows and thinks that maybe no one will ever 476 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:44,796 Speaker 3: notice him, but he's dealing with people who are breaking 477 00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:47,556 Speaker 3: the law, and the law is listening. 478 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:50,796 Speaker 1: So they got us on some of these wiretaps thicking. 479 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 1: Oh my god, we know these illegal bookmakers are operating illegally, 480 00:26:55,436 --> 00:26:58,556 Speaker 1: and then they're giving money to this guy Spanky. That 481 00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:01,916 Speaker 1: means Spanky must be this kingpin bookmaker. And they rounded 482 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:06,116 Speaker 1: up everybody. I was accused of a crime. Ithentic command. 483 00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:08,316 Speaker 1: And that's the god's honest truth, whether anyone wants to 484 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:10,836 Speaker 1: believe me or not. I wasn't a bookmaker. I was 485 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 1: just a better It didn't really matter what he was. 486 00:27:13,996 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 1: Spanky faced a nasty choice. He could defend himself in 487 00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 1: court and risk years in prison, or he could cut 488 00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:20,956 Speaker 1: a deal and walk. 489 00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 3: How much did they get for me? 490 00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: They got I think about seven hundred and fifty thousand. 491 00:27:27,476 --> 00:27:28,116 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 492 00:27:28,196 --> 00:27:31,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they just took it. Yes, this took it. 493 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, they took seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. You 494 00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:37,596 Speaker 3: plead guilty to a felony, and what are the consequences 495 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:39,876 Speaker 3: of that? You don't spend any time in jail? 496 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:42,356 Speaker 1: Right? I spent I spent two nights in jail. 497 00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 3: And Spanky's now are convicted felon. But that party's kind 498 00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 3: of okay with the felony. 499 00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:51,036 Speaker 1: Did nothing I couldn't coach my son's baseball team because 500 00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:53,236 Speaker 1: you know, they do background checks and then fall of 501 00:27:53,236 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 1: a sudden on my fist. So that was like the 502 00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:59,076 Speaker 1: big hit to me other than that, I can't vote, 503 00:27:59,116 --> 00:28:02,556 Speaker 1: which I've never voted anyway. I can't own a gun, 504 00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:05,996 Speaker 1: which I've never owned a gun anyway. And I can't 505 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:08,676 Speaker 1: serve on a jury, which is actually a plus because 506 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,796 Speaker 1: time I get calls for jury duty, I just tell 507 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:13,676 Speaker 1: him I'm the felon and they go, oh sorry, and 508 00:28:13,756 --> 00:28:17,756 Speaker 1: that's it. It's over. So it really wasn't that bad. 509 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:20,596 Speaker 3: Yes, there was this law to stop the spread of 510 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 3: sports gambling, and yes the Feds occasionally went and arrested people, 511 00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 3: but even the cops who arrested Spanky didn't seem to 512 00:28:28,036 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 3: have their hearts in it. 513 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:33,836 Speaker 1: The pinch happens in October, so I have my attorney 514 00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:36,956 Speaker 1: calling up the DA's office saying, listen, my client needs 515 00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,716 Speaker 1: his computers backed. My clients needs his computers back. And 516 00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:43,676 Speaker 1: then eventually the ADA wind up calling my lawyer and 517 00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:46,596 Speaker 1: goes tell Spanky, we're gonna give him his fucking computers 518 00:28:46,596 --> 00:28:50,636 Speaker 1: back before football season starts, and lo and behold. In August, 519 00:28:50,676 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: I get a call from Queen's saying, your computer's already 520 00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:55,436 Speaker 1: to be packed up, and I went and I went 521 00:28:56,236 --> 00:28:58,796 Speaker 1: go pick up my computer. So like they know that 522 00:28:58,916 --> 00:29:00,796 Speaker 1: I'm going to continue betting. 523 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 3: So Spanky gets his stuff back and he can get 524 00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 3: his bets down on NFL games. Right after that, New 525 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:11,196 Speaker 3: Jersey holds a referendum on sports gambling. This is in 526 00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:14,956 Speaker 3: twenty eleven. The referendum puts a simple question to a 527 00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:19,156 Speaker 3: popular vote, should sports betting be legal in New Jersey? 528 00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:24,116 Speaker 3: Two thirds of the voters say yes. The vote has 529 00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 3: no practical effect. Bradley's law is federal law and overrides 530 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 3: the results of a state referendum. But the referendum tells 531 00:29:32,236 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 3: you something. Two thirds of the people Bill Bradley represented 532 00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 3: don't like his ban on sports betting. They agree with Spanky, 533 00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:52,796 Speaker 3: and Spanky thinks time is now my friend. Many many 534 00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:56,196 Speaker 3: people who knew Bill Bradley as a basketball player just 535 00:29:56,276 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 3: sort of assumed that he would one day be president 536 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:02,076 Speaker 3: of the United States. He was so obviously what was 537 00:30:02,116 --> 00:30:05,476 Speaker 3: best in America. But Bradley was always saying, it's not 538 00:30:05,596 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 3: the right time to run. But in the year tw 539 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:12,916 Speaker 3: just as Spanky's really getting going as a sports gambler. 540 00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 3: Bill Bradley finally ran for president. Michael Jordan endorsed him, 541 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:21,396 Speaker 3: so did many of his former teammates and Senate colleagues. 542 00:30:21,996 --> 00:30:25,076 Speaker 3: Even though Bradley was running against a sitting incumbent Vice 543 00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 3: President Al Gore, turned out it still wasn't the right time. 544 00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:35,396 Speaker 5: Following the results on Tuesday night, I've decided to withdraw 545 00:30:35,596 --> 00:30:37,436 Speaker 5: from the Democratic grace for president. 546 00:30:38,756 --> 00:30:39,676 Speaker 1: We have been defeated. 547 00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:43,036 Speaker 5: But the cause for which I ran has not been 548 00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:46,756 Speaker 5: the cause of trying to create a new politics in 549 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:50,436 Speaker 5: this country, the cause of trying to fulfill our special 550 00:30:50,476 --> 00:30:55,276 Speaker 5: promise as a nation that cannot be defeated by one 551 00:30:55,876 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 5: or one hundred defeats. 552 00:31:02,116 --> 00:31:04,996 Speaker 3: What was it about Bill Bradley that failed to appeal 553 00:31:05,036 --> 00:31:10,316 Speaker 3: to his fellow citizens. He always exemplified these great values, 554 00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:16,236 Speaker 3: but I've always thought his values were the problem. When 555 00:31:16,276 --> 00:31:19,316 Speaker 3: push comes to shove, we want to live like Spanky, 556 00:31:19,716 --> 00:31:24,236 Speaker 3: not like Bill Bradley. Your view of the purity of 557 00:31:24,276 --> 00:31:30,396 Speaker 3: sport is you know, I share it, but it's old fashion. 558 00:31:31,116 --> 00:31:34,796 Speaker 4: You know, I don't think it's old fashion at all. Nope, No, 559 00:31:35,036 --> 00:31:40,316 Speaker 4: you ever shoot five hundred shots in a row and 560 00:31:40,396 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 4: do a hundred push ups and run ten miles to 561 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:45,716 Speaker 4: get into shape to be the best you could be. 562 00:31:46,356 --> 00:31:47,196 Speaker 4: Is that old fashion? 563 00:31:48,316 --> 00:31:51,796 Speaker 3: Nope? I swear to God in that moment, I felt 564 00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:53,356 Speaker 3: eleven years old all over again. 565 00:31:54,436 --> 00:31:59,156 Speaker 4: People don't do that so they can make a bet. 566 00:31:59,556 --> 00:32:02,956 Speaker 4: They do that because they want to be the best 567 00:32:03,436 --> 00:32:06,556 Speaker 4: at what they do. I don't think that's old fashion 568 00:32:06,596 --> 00:32:09,676 Speaker 4: at all. That's what kids need. They need to be 569 00:32:09,716 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 4: able to have parents that say, you know, look at 570 00:32:12,836 --> 00:32:16,436 Speaker 4: the way Steph Curry practices. That's what you want to 571 00:32:16,476 --> 00:32:19,956 Speaker 4: say to your kid. And if your kid isn't interested 572 00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 4: in that, but always interested in is a parlay bet 573 00:32:22,436 --> 00:32:27,756 Speaker 4: with fifteen teams in a game on Saturday Night that said, 574 00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:29,796 Speaker 4: we are living in a different world and we've lost 575 00:32:29,836 --> 00:32:33,796 Speaker 4: something precious to all of us. And the problem is 576 00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:36,236 Speaker 4: a lot of people don't know they're about to lose. 577 00:32:36,036 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 3: It, or people know they're about to lose it and 578 00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:48,636 Speaker 3: they don't care. There was always more than one New 579 00:32:48,716 --> 00:32:51,876 Speaker 3: Jersey and the other New Jersey. It wants a piece 580 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:57,156 Speaker 3: of the action. Welcome to the Garden State, Baby That's Next. 581 00:33:10,556 --> 00:33:12,876 Speaker 3: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael 582 00:33:12,956 --> 00:33:15,956 Speaker 3: Lewis and produced by Lydia Gen Kott, Catherine Gerardo, and 583 00:33:15,996 --> 00:33:20,076 Speaker 3: Ariela Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton. Our engineer is 584 00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:23,916 Speaker 3: Jake Korski. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and 585 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:27,836 Speaker 3: John Evans of stell Wagon Sinfinett. Our fact checker is 586 00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 3: Lauren Ves. Polly Against the Rules is a production of 587 00:33:31,436 --> 00:33:36,116 Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 588 00:33:36,116 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 589 00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:43,596 Speaker 3: and if you'd like to listen to ad free and 590 00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:47,156 Speaker 3: learn about other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up 591 00:33:47,236 --> 00:33:51,276 Speaker 3: for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin, dot fm, slash 592 00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:54,276 Speaker 3: Plus or on our Apple show page. 593 00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:01,156 Speaker 1: You have to be able to differentiate between the mics. 594 00:34:01,356 --> 00:34:03,796 Speaker 1: Chinese Mic is my partner, but he's not even Chinese. 595 00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:06,916 Speaker 1: He's actually Vietnamese, but we call him Chinese Fike because 596 00:34:06,916 --> 00:34:07,596 Speaker 1: it's just shorter. 597 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:11,196 Speaker 3: I want you to give me my nickname if I'm 598 00:34:11,236 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 3: gonna come, if I ever come to join you as 599 00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:14,276 Speaker 3: a partner. I can't be Mike anymore. 600 00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:16,956 Speaker 1: I could be something Mike if you I think that's 601 00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:18,396 Speaker 1: you know that word. 602 00:34:22,916 --> 00:34:24,916 Speaker 3: All right? I think I would got my moneyball Mike