1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fry. We spent both of our episodes 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: this week talking about Francisco to Miranda. Because I saw 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: a statue in Philadelphia? Is there any better reason? I mean, 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: it was a great reason. Plus I was getting started 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: on this. I wanted to confirm where I saw the 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: statue because I walked around Philadelphia that sort of general 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: area a bit that day, even though it was snowing 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: and then horribly raining. Once the horrible rain started, I 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: just walked back to the hotel, but I wanted to 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: make sure I remembered, like where the statue was and 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: what it looked like. And it's in front of the 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: Franklin Institute. And as I was looking at Google Maps, 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: I was like, did they drive a Google street View 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: car through the interior of the Franklin Institute, Because there's 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: Google street View of the inside of Franklin Institute. And 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: if you listeners know the story of that. I didn't 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: call up the Franklin Institute to ask, but I did 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: ask a former coworker of ours who worked at the 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: Franklin Institute for several years. That person did not specifically know. 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: Thought it might have been part of like a pilot 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: program that never really got off the ground. But if 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: you look at it on Google Maps, you can get 25 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: into the inside of the Franklin Institute on the street view. 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: It is not as smooth as a lot of like 27 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: formally intentionally made three D virtual tours of museums, because 28 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: there are times where you can see that there is 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: Google street view path going through two different rooms, but 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: you can't get through the door, like oh waituh, But 31 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: I was fascinated and that whole like the public art 32 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: that is on the street it includes the Rocky statue, 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, the statue of Rocky at the Art Museum. Also, 34 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: what is the most over the top monument to George 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: Washington that I personally have ever seen in person. It 36 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: is not my favorite piece of art in the world. 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: There are like indigenous people at the bottom kind of 38 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: adoringly looking up, and it makes me go yikes every 39 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: time I see it. Yeah, I am fascinated by this man. 40 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: I am fascinated by his hubris. I struggled mightily with 41 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: writing the episode because there were so many parts of 42 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: it that we either haven't talked about at all or 43 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 1: we've only talked about in kind of broad strokes that 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: I needed to do in a little bit more detail. 45 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: So like, had never talked about Spain's contribution to the 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: revolution war at all. We've talked at various points about 47 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: the French Revolution and the French Revolutionary Wars, but the 48 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: thing that we needed to talk about in this pair 49 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: of episodes was like how it actually started? What were 50 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: the steps of things that happened? Right? And I had 51 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: a real hard time boiling that down into something that 52 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: made any sense and seemed accurate. There was just a 53 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: lot of it. I was not expecting a two part 54 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: episode starting out on it, and I definitely wasn't expecting 55 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: a two part episode that took me at least two 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: additional days longer than normal to get through. Yeah, it's 57 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: always tricky. I mean, I find any time I'm talking 58 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: about the French Revolution, I like have to silo and 59 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, there's all this other stuff, but today 60 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: we just have to talk about this because otherwise my 61 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: brain goes going, yes, I will confess to my poor studentship. 62 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: Are you ready? Yeah, you had asked me when you 63 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: started this, Hey, did you know that Spain had you know, 64 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: been contributing to the Revolutionary warr And I was like, yeah, 65 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: but I don't remember much about it. And then after 66 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: you did your research and I was looking at your outline, 67 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's why I knew, And BOYD, is that 68 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: show that I wasn't paying a lot of attention because 69 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: I grew up, you know, not far from Pensacola, So 70 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: I know I got this education that seems like, if 71 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: nothing else, it would have been part of like Florida 72 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: state history class. That's exactly what it was. But I 73 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: tuned out. Listen, I was a bad history student growing up. 74 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: I just was like whatever. But again, you know, it's 75 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: a lot of memorizing facts, it didn't really contextualize things. Sure, 76 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: just not to rip on teachers. It's a hard job, 77 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: and it's been hard in a variety of ways always. 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think we've talked on the show before 79 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: about how the way history was taught when you and 80 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: I were in like R K through twelve education versus 81 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: what I will hear public school history teachers talking about 82 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: now totally different. Yes, Like our history education involved reading. 83 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 1: From my point, of view the most boring textbooks ever written, Yes, 84 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: and then being given what was basically a reading comprehension 85 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: test about those textbooks that were so boring that I 86 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: could not get any of the stuff to stick in 87 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: my head really well hard. Same, And so I like, 88 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: will hear friends of mine who are history teachers talking 89 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: about like things their students are doing that involve close 90 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: reading of primary sources and building connections between different commonalities 91 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: and different parts of history and interpreting things, And I'm like, 92 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: this would have number one given me a better foundational 93 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: knowledge of things, and other also would have been more fun. 94 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: I didn't get into that kind of stuff until I 95 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: was taking humanities classes in college, which I've said before 96 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: was like where I was like, oh I do like history, right, Yeah, 97 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: I mean unless you can kind of create a thread 98 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: that ties history to the person you're teaching it to 99 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: in some way, which usually just involves like giving it 100 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: broader context. Yeah, it's really hard for a lot of people, 101 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: myself included, to be like, oh, I understand why this 102 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: is important, what this is. I see how these are 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: human beings that were doing things that are flawed, like 104 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: all human beings. Then it gets more interesting in a hurry, 105 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: but when it's like and then they took Pensacola and 106 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: then there was this, and I'm like, I don't I'm 107 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: sorry what I was thinking about Grido, I don't like. Yeah, yeah, 108 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: I also have this vision of who Miranda was in 109 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: my head and why he was so kind of not 110 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: thorough in thinking through his plans. Tell me what your 111 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: theory is, well, because I see him as the kind 112 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: of people everyone knows. I've certainly known a lot of these, 113 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: and sometimes I've been this that person who thinks they 114 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: know I mean, we know he was conceited, right. I 115 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: feel like he would come up with an idea and go, 116 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: I'm so clever. Ah, you guys, I've figured it all 117 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: out here you go, and like that was it. There 118 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: wasn't any follow up on, like, oh, I should vet 119 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: this with somebody, I should talk this through. It would 120 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: be like I'm a clever man. Here's my clever idea. 121 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: You guys can laud me for my cleverness. Now it's like, oh, 122 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: you have fallen into your own trap where you are 123 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: probably very bright, right, but you haven't learned how to 124 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: refine ideas or like develop them past what you think 125 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: is your initial genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 126 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm so clever. It should be on a shirt for him, right. 127 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: So I read a couple of biographies. One was by 128 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: Karen Raycine called Francisco de Miranda, A Transatlantic Life in 129 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: the Age of Revolution I came out on two thousand 130 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: and three. And the other was like one of the 131 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: really early English language biographies of him, which was by 132 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: William Spence Robertson, and that was Francisco to Miranda and 133 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: the Revolutionizing of Spanish America. And I can't remember which 134 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: of these authors said this, but one or the other 135 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: of them was basically like he was really smart and 136 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: really well read, but not a deep thinker. And as 137 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: I was reading it, it kind of amused me a 138 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: little bit because I was sort of thinking about him 139 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: in also thinking about Natalie Clifford Barney, whose episode was 140 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: also inspired by the same trip to Philadelphia, and I 141 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: sort of felt like Francisco to Miranda is to revolution 142 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: in Spanish America, as Natalie Clifford Barney is to polyamory. 143 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: They just both had like really idealistic, really like surface 144 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: level ambitions about things that were way more complicated than 145 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: how they handled them in a lot of ways. She 146 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: too was very I'm so clever. Yeah, have you noticed 147 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: how clever I am? Yeah, she was in terms of 148 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: like her relationships with other people. She was like, we're 149 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: not going to be monogamous. We're all just gonna love 150 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: each other and it's going to be great without kind 151 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: of wrestling with what it takes to do that in 152 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: a relationship and have it not fall apart into drama. 153 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: And at least from my reading, Francisco to Miranda was 154 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: kind of like, yeah, we're going to have a revolution 155 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: in Spanish America. It's going to be all about freedom 156 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: and liberty, and like, in addition to not having really 157 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: explored all the layers of what that would involve, that 158 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 1: was so much territory with vastly different populations and experiences, 159 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: Like our Saturday classic was on the Tupacumaru Rebellion, and 160 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, in the highland areas where a lot of 161 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: that happened, the demographics were very different from areas along 162 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: the coast. Like so many things, I still find him 163 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: so fascinating and so ambitious. I do feel like it 164 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: sort of short changes him to boil him down to 165 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: these three revolutions, because while it is true that he 166 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: was involved in all three of them, they are not 167 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: necessarily in the way that a person might imagine based 168 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: on that sentence, right, Like when you say he fought 169 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: in the American Revolution, the French Revolution, and the revolution 170 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: in Spanish America, you sort of might imagine him like 171 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: rolling into Yorktown and then taking the king to the 172 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: guillotine and then and like that's like, that's not well, 173 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: not how he was participating. He was busy being clever. 174 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: He was very clever. He also did seem to perpetually 175 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: be like work in his angles. Yeah, he had a 176 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: lot of angles, right, like how can I turn this 177 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: thing that's not about me into both being about me 178 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: and supporting the thing that I want to do? Yeah. 179 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: His story also really highlights how much, in terms of 180 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: other nations support of revolutions, how much of that has 181 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to do with what the revolutionary's stated goals are, Like, 182 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: how much of that is really about those nations own 183 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: self interest and own priorities. And that is something that 184 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: I think that he understood and also didn't want to 185 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: think about, because it was like he understood that if 186 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, if there was an uprising in the Spanish 187 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: car it would distract their focus from things that mattered 188 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: to Britain, and he wanted to get Britain's support based 189 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: on that idea, but like did not quite take that 190 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: to the point of you're talking about a hypothetical thing 191 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: when there are actual, real things in front of the 192 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: British officials right now that are going to take a priority. Yeah. 193 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: One of the other things that really popped out to 194 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: me during this episode this may sound like I am 195 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: a simpleton, and I am in many ways. You know, 196 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: we talk about how and we of course get a 197 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: lot of the revolution in the colonies right that ultimately 198 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: led to the United States, and this idea of like, 199 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 1: everyone help us, we are trying to gain our independence, 200 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: and how quickly it spins around to other people coming 201 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: to the US for help and them going, oh, we 202 00:12:53,400 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: are thinking about how this one maybe right, and I'm 203 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: just like, whoa, that's a quick turn about. You kind 204 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: of became the very thing you said you were fighting 205 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: in many ways, which I think happens in almost every 206 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: one of those cases throughout history, right, Like, once a 207 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: revolutionary faction establishes themselves as the government, then they suddenly 208 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: find that they have to deal with matters of state 209 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: and where they fit in the global community, and that 210 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: becomes a whole other problem that they weren't focusing on 211 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: at all as their ideals when they were just moving 212 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: forward to gain independence. Yeah, I think this is absolutely 213 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: my conjecture. I have not looked into like the historiography 214 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: of this at all, but I think it's very easy, 215 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: like in school lessons to have this pairing of American 216 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: Revolution French Revolution ideals of liberty who helped to Yeah, 217 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and it doesn't work quite as 218 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: neatly that way with Spain's involvement in the American Revolution. 219 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: There's not that quite duality there, I think. So if 220 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: you don't know the term historiography, it's like sort of 221 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: the whole field of the writing of history, and the 222 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: historiography changes over time for a lot of different reasons. 223 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: And I am kind of curious if I went back 224 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: to history books that were written before World War Two, 225 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: what would it say about Spain's involvement in the Revolutionary War, 226 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: Like if I went back basically anytime, going farther back 227 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: to like any time before the rise of fascism and 228 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: the Spanish Civil War, like would books written before that 229 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: point treat Spain's involvement in the American Revolution differently than 230 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: yours and my experience which was like to not hear 231 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: that much about it in an American history class, although 232 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: you likely heard about it in a Florida State's history class. 233 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: And that's just my conjecture. I don't really know. Also, 234 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: we did not even touch on all of the famous 235 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: and influential people that this man met during his lifetime. 236 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: There's so many. It's so wild how casually he's having 237 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: lunches and dinners with people. Yeah, I'm just gonna go 238 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: go have dinner with George Washington. One person that came 239 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: up in a source that I didn't put into the episode, 240 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: but I was curious about is James Berry, who was 241 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: a surgeon. And James Berry is like in the big 242 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: umbrella of trans history. Based on everything that we know 243 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: about him and his life, pretty comfortable saying that, like, 244 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: if this person were living today, we would probably describe 245 00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: James Berry as a trans man. One source that I 246 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: used said that this was somebody that Francisco to Miranda 247 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: personally knew, and that Francisco de Miranda knew this about 248 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: James Berry and helped to keep his secret, and it 249 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: was one of those things where I was like, this 250 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: sounds interesting. I would like to explore this, but the 251 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: one paper that seemed to be the source of this 252 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: just wouldn't load like the word there was a link 253 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: to it that kept opening as a blank screen, and 254 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't find another source for getting that paper. And 255 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: the way it was worded. Number one, it was this 256 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: was in like a Spanish language source that I was 257 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: having to run through a translator to just get the 258 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: sense of, which is another reason why I was like, 259 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm not confident putting this into the episode based on 260 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: something that I ran through a translator to try to read. 261 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: But it also in that translation read as kind of 262 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: conjectural to me, and I was like, I would like 263 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: to have more definite information than to just throw something 264 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: into the episode that I'm not totally sure about and 265 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: can't find the substantiation on. James Barry is somebody that 266 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: we used to get a lot of requests about an 267 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: episode for that we have not done, in part because 268 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: it's not a lot of documentation, not a lot of yea, 269 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: not a lot of documentation, but also a story that, 270 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: in spite of our best efforts, can like reinforce some 271 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: outdated ideas about gender and about transgender people specifically. So 272 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: that is just if you're curious why we don't have 273 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: an episode. That is why. It's also been some years 274 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: since James Barry has come up in my so that 275 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: might be that there are better sources now than there 276 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: were the last time I thought about possible episodes. So yeah, 277 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: the empty tomb at the National Pantheon of Venezuela with 278 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: the eagle hold the lid open. That chokes me up 279 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. Me too. It is clear that he 280 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: has an important place in the history of Venezuela and 281 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: the rest of the region as well, not just Venezuela. 282 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, so if you've got stuff happening on the weekend, 283 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: I hope it doesn't involve having to try to get 284 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: back pay from somebody. And I also but it doesn't evolve 285 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: like writing two officials to beg for help and something 286 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: that they don't care about. You know, I hope they 287 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: do care if that's what you're doing, just because I 288 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: know how rough it can be to just butch your 289 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: head against something that's not getting the attention that you want. 290 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: We'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow. We will 291 00:18:52,400 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: have a brand new episode on Monday. Stuff you Missed 292 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 293 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 294 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.