Speaker 1: Welcome to j dot IL, a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: What's up? Everybody is the Lady General Scott. It is
Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here with you. I am with
Speaker 1: my sister friends, Layah sat Claire. Hello everybody. That's my
Speaker 1: favorite accent and the fantastic age a great and Danzla.
Speaker 1: What we're gonna talk about today? Yeah, oh man, look
Speaker 1: still got a pain on that thing. It's a pain
Speaker 1: on that thing because can our front Bill Cosby added
Speaker 1: a lot to our existence. He really did, came front
Speaker 1: on it, came front on. It. Don't go right because
Speaker 1: I made the I made the fat Albert joint. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: and I felt considering everything that we're talking about. But
Speaker 1: the bottom line is, I mean, she's right. These are
Speaker 1: things that kind of cultural things that are kind of
Speaker 1: stuck in our heads, you know, and and it is
Speaker 1: what it is. You still shouldn't drug people and take
Speaker 1: advantage of them. That's just a fact. So I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna say that, but like, no, you should not. Those
Speaker 1: are things you shouldn't do. But it's cool. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm just saying there was there was
Speaker 1: a lot of contributions there, but you absolutely should not
Speaker 1: drug people and and touch their parts. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: don't no no. I don't know if it's a song
Speaker 1: for that, but I don't know that. I tell you
Speaker 1: it's a lot of predators out here. How about that
Speaker 1: Amen's aid to the mint. It's a whole bunch of them,
Speaker 1: and you'd be surprised. Cool folks are. I just saw
Speaker 1: a video an actress on YouTube not too long ago, um,
Speaker 1: and she was like tongue kissing this little boy in
Speaker 1: the mouth. Boy was like fifteen years old. This was
Speaker 1: a long time ago. The video was very long a
Speaker 1: time ago, but nonetheless, I just saw it for the
Speaker 1: first time yesterday and I was like, damn, she was
Speaker 1: just tongue kissing a little boy over and over again
Speaker 1: in front of other grown people, and they laughed at awful,
Speaker 1: it's all funny. It's so funny, but it's really not.
Speaker 1: It's not funny at all. Look at that young Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's the langua that goes around it. That hurts
Speaker 1: my stomach. That makes me sick. Actually, I got two sons.
Speaker 1: We got some you know sons around and you don't
Speaker 1: even gotta have a son. It's sick. It makes my
Speaker 1: stomach kurt because it's it's like the things that we
Speaker 1: call normal, the things that we call okay, socially acceptable,
Speaker 1: to be so comfortable with harm makes me sick. But
Speaker 1: you know it's not. It's not I looked at his harm.
Speaker 1: It's not looking as harm at all. I've I've asked.
Speaker 1: You know, I have a lot of male friends, and
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to them about how their sexual
Speaker 1: life began, and most of them, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: go on the high end of most. I'm going to
Speaker 1: say about a good eighty five percent of the men
Speaker 1: that I know all started their sexual experience with some
Speaker 1: grown woman. It wasn't an adult woman, it was a
Speaker 1: teenager just older, the babysitter. I've heard this story a
Speaker 1: million times to Jim, It's a common story. We hear
Speaker 1: it all the time. I just had this conversation to
Speaker 1: day Jail because we full discretion. Jail had brought this
Speaker 1: up in a meet a while ago, this this this topic,
Speaker 1: and so I literally just asked one of my male
Speaker 1: friends today, like, so, did you lose your virginity to
Speaker 1: an older woman? And he was like, most definitely I did, right,
Speaker 1: And I will admit to, like before I really started
Speaker 1: to get home into men and their like their real humanity.
Speaker 1: There was a part of me growing up where I
Speaker 1: would be like, uh, why dudes always tell that same lie?
Speaker 1: They always flexing, Like that's the way that I that's
Speaker 1: the way I processed that information at first, was just
Speaker 1: like you're always lying, Like why y'all? To she was okay,
Speaker 1: I got you, you know, of course she did, you know,
Speaker 1: And so it's like, you know, so there was a
Speaker 1: lot of we just have a way of dehumanizing men,
Speaker 1: that is that makes it possible for something like that
Speaker 1: to happen unchecked like that exactly. I think a lot
Speaker 1: about this, um because I have a son. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tell you what happened. I'm just gonna tell you. Okay,
Speaker 1: my girlfriend has a son, her and her husband and
Speaker 1: a beautiful young man. Hadn't seen him in a long time,
Speaker 1: and you know, he grew a lot, and I was like,
Speaker 1: that's wow, mummy's looking great. Go ahead, young man, I'll
Speaker 1: see you in my mind. And I caught my mind.
Speaker 1: No no no, no, no, no no no no. Hello.
Speaker 1: If your girlfriend or your her husband his friend could
Speaker 1: hear what you just thought, they'll probably punch you in
Speaker 1: the face and you would deserve it. Get yourself together, like,
Speaker 1: oh it's I'm not saying you can't see. You can see.
Speaker 1: But there's a difference between doing something and not doing
Speaker 1: something about what you're seeing. You know, this is still
Speaker 1: a child, you can still see it in their eyes. Nonetheless,
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about this today because it just
Speaker 1: seems like it's, um, there's something going on with the
Speaker 1: men um that we know. Listen. I had to pull
Speaker 1: up I had to pull up an expert. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying at the grab have a friend who
Speaker 1: can speak further about these things, UM than I possibly could.
Speaker 1: I'm just paying attention to what I'm seeing. Um. I've
Speaker 1: asked my friend, Dr Thurman Webb, who is the CEO
Speaker 1: and founder of Centered Person Consulting and Associate Professor of
Speaker 1: Psychology at Tendency State University. He's also the life coach
Speaker 1: for for several young men that I know, including my
Speaker 1: my own son at the time as well. He's a
Speaker 1: part of my village and he's someone that I deeply
Speaker 1: love and trust and definitely consider a friend. And I
Speaker 1: called him. I called him, I said, what's out Webb? Hi,
Speaker 1: Dr Webb. I'm fantastic. Look, I wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: to a man about this because we you know, Agent
Speaker 1: Grad danver And and myself, um, we have sons and
Speaker 1: Dr Webs has two boys of his own as well,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to talk to you, like, what
Speaker 1: are you what are your thoughts about so many young
Speaker 1: young men being um, having their first sexual experience or
Speaker 1: their fifth or whatever the case may be with a
Speaker 1: grown ass woman. Yeah, what's going on? It's as popular
Speaker 1: as you all are thinking in this moment? Absolutely, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like it's one thing that identified
Speaker 1: the elephant in the room, is another thing where you
Speaker 1: don't have a label for the elephant that's in the room.
Speaker 1: And this is one of those things. Right, So that
Speaker 1: ain't that ain't sexual, saw, that's not it's not moment,
Speaker 1: it's not it's not all the things that it's all
Speaker 1: of that, right, But it's there's a socialization that happens
Speaker 1: with young men that like when we when we're putting
Speaker 1: masculine energy on them, they're not allowed to be victims. Right,
Speaker 1: So when we see that is that not patriarchy absolutely,
Speaker 1: but like we would be remissed if we weren't saying
Speaker 1: that that's not constantly influencing the way that we exist
Speaker 1: in this world. Right, it ain't right, but it is.
Speaker 1: And that thing like it, even when we're trying to
Speaker 1: combat the system, we inadvertently support it. Right, So they're
Speaker 1: not allowed to be victims. Um, the vulnerability is not
Speaker 1: allowed to show up either, because when you go to
Speaker 1: share the story, believe it or not, it does matter
Speaker 1: how attractive she was, right, And so like the vast
Speaker 1: majority of men that I've talked to who have had
Speaker 1: sexual encounters, you'd be surprised how many of those women
Speaker 1: were married with kids, and and these individuals who are
Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen years old, right, So there's another deviation happening
Speaker 1: there because like what and and these are people who
Speaker 1: are having their first sexual experience. It does something to
Speaker 1: your physiology and how you understand it because you don't
Speaker 1: have enough experience to context to allige that sensation you're
Speaker 1: feeling as pleasure. Right, So so that's that throws the
Speaker 1: whole system off, like, because how can I please a woman?
Speaker 1: And this is just a new feeling that I'm feeling altogether.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, she's not in it for pleasure.
Speaker 1: She's in it for the trick of it, right, She's
Speaker 1: in it for the turnout of it. So it's it's
Speaker 1: almost a power it's a power play because what could
Speaker 1: she possibly be getting from someone who has no experience
Speaker 1: this is their first time. However, she finds satisfaction to
Speaker 1: repeat that act. This what you're how you're explaining this
Speaker 1: sounds almost identical to the way we describe it when
Speaker 1: it happens to young girls. I think it's so. I mean,
Speaker 1: like the language you're using about it being our power
Speaker 1: and not sex, about not being able to contextualize the
Speaker 1: pleasure that you feel. These are all things that I
Speaker 1: just it's I'm sorry, I mean interrupt you, but this
Speaker 1: is sad to me that we don't then use the
Speaker 1: same language when we talk about boys in this particular
Speaker 1: kind of experience. It's it's it's molestation as sexual assault. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it stops in about the situation if the situation
Speaker 1: stays the same. But are the way we talk about
Speaker 1: it is what changes? It stops being about that and
Speaker 1: it starts being about us, And then you inadvertly become complicit.
Speaker 1: And that's what a lot of older black men end
Speaker 1: up doing. The younger Black boys who are trying to
Speaker 1: make sense of this new feeling and why it felt exploited.
Speaker 1: How because keep in mind, I have to sacrifice a
Speaker 1: piece of my innocence in order to get into that
Speaker 1: intimate space, Like that's the trade off to get the insight.
Speaker 1: I gotta give up some of my innocence. But how
Speaker 1: can I talk to that and black men we ain't
Speaker 1: been vulnerable about it? And then we want to pack
Speaker 1: you on the back, like you hit that you got
Speaker 1: into that. So now I can't even have a decent
Speaker 1: conversation around the stuff that I'm feeling. And technically it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like as much you can do from a
Speaker 1: black female perspective, because there's certain things you need to
Speaker 1: be validated too. But if we talk, if we talk
Speaker 1: about it and it's aggressive sense, and we say that
Speaker 1: that's rape, go at the young man, what rape is
Speaker 1: the vast majority gonna say, when when a when a
Speaker 1: man penetrates a woman? All right, cool, Now that doesn't
Speaker 1: apply to the woman raping him. So he don't even
Speaker 1: have a working definition for rape, for what rape looks
Speaker 1: like on him. But I think that's that's part of
Speaker 1: a huge misunderstanding we have around what rape culture and
Speaker 1: what rape is period because women, I mean, well, all
Speaker 1: people who are assaulted end up in a situation where
Speaker 1: they have a difficult time trying to express what has
Speaker 1: happened to them because there's a lack of language and
Speaker 1: understanding around what actually happened to them. And it doesn't
Speaker 1: surprise me that boys find themselves lost in this moment
Speaker 1: because I mean, you said something that that really touched me,
Speaker 1: where you said when you put masculinity on the experience,
Speaker 1: then it doesn't allow them to feel like a victim
Speaker 1: because to be masculine is is does not align with
Speaker 1: being victimized exactly. And so that that act becomes the
Speaker 1: initiation for the next sexual acts that they follow, right
Speaker 1: with a girl who is probably their age exactly. And
Speaker 1: guess what happened though, because there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: experience there, they mimic the power differentiation. WHOA. Then they
Speaker 1: get into something with somebody who's kind of you know,
Speaker 1: in the same bracket, and then they want to dominate
Speaker 1: that space, and then it stops being about pleasure and
Speaker 1: intimacy and all that. They keep in mind, you're still
Speaker 1: young in your sexual experience that's new to you anyway,
Speaker 1: Hell us a lot of adults that they figured that out.
Speaker 1: But now the best thing that you have is to
Speaker 1: mimic the dominance that you experienced. M We're gonna take
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we'll be right back. You know.
Speaker 1: I saw this interview with d Ray Davis, a comedian
Speaker 1: and I'm only saying his name because he has been,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty public about it. And he said that
Speaker 1: some adult person um or someone that was older than
Speaker 1: him forced him to go down her when he was
Speaker 1: a kid, like somewhere between the ages of nine and
Speaker 1: thirteen years old, and because of that, it triggers something
Speaker 1: in him. And he said, you know, he doesn't matter
Speaker 1: how much he loves a woman or or how much
Speaker 1: he wants to be with her or to please her,
Speaker 1: that is something that he cannot do. And I can't
Speaker 1: imagine how many young men, or how many men in general,
Speaker 1: who have had that kind of experience where they were
Speaker 1: forced to do something that, um, they clearly are too
Speaker 1: young to be doing, first of all, especially and especially
Speaker 1: with the dog on adult you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: Or somebody way older than them, their baby said, or
Speaker 1: somebody that was put in charge of their hair. So
Speaker 1: you it made me think like, damn, maybe maybe there's
Speaker 1: a reason why there's an animosity towards women if this
Speaker 1: is the first, you know, experience of so many males,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe there's there's a reason why, Yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: give you, um, I'll keep giving you babies and not
Speaker 1: take care of them and not take care of you.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I strain you along for for years
Speaker 1: and years as much as I possibly can and not
Speaker 1: commit to anything. Maybe there's a real reason why men
Speaker 1: may not really like us that much if this is
Speaker 1: their first experience. You know, you were like, like, man,
Speaker 1: we we there's something that happens that we call psycho
Speaker 1: sexually arrested. So like when you when when that happens you,
Speaker 1: you get psycho sexually arrested, which means that your sexual
Speaker 1: response is that of the wounded child. So you respond
Speaker 1: to that sexual situation in the same way of when
Speaker 1: the abuse actually happened to you. So it's almost like
Speaker 1: an intimacy aversion, just like you have taste of versions,
Speaker 1: and then that's the thing that you show up with
Speaker 1: like to this day, you know, just a little disclosure
Speaker 1: because of my colleges. I cannot smell hypnotic or alas
Speaker 1: a like. It puts me in a bad way, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. But and and so when I
Speaker 1: smell it, it automatically catapulsts me back to when I
Speaker 1: had no control of it coming back up. The intimacy
Speaker 1: of version happens the same way. And so you show
Speaker 1: up as that child again, like that vulnerability of that child,
Speaker 1: you know, that innocence that we referred to earlier, Like
Speaker 1: that comes back up. And as a man, one of
Speaker 1: the things that masculine energy says to us is that
Speaker 1: I should and I have to be able to protect myself.
Speaker 1: But as a child, you couldn't do that. So you
Speaker 1: don't want to be in that position again. And then
Speaker 1: and then, because the music and the TV shows hyper
Speaker 1: sexualized men in such a way, you know, they're getting
Speaker 1: all of all of pussy, just getting it all. It
Speaker 1: makes me feel like it makes again makes me feel
Speaker 1: like maybe they just don't like us, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: they've had such had an experience that um prohibitive prohibits
Speaker 1: them from giving the damn for instance, it's too general.
Speaker 1: Because I'm trying to understand, I feel like there's a
Speaker 1: little hat for going on. It's not that they don't
Speaker 1: like women, they don't like the feeling, and so like,
Speaker 1: I don't like the feeling, so I got to do
Speaker 1: the things to avoid the feeling. The feeling is the
Speaker 1: universal thing, like that may not have the same experience
Speaker 1: that elicited the feeling, but I can meet you at
Speaker 1: the feeling, right, We say that all the time, But
Speaker 1: I don't like the feeling. And when we're talking about
Speaker 1: something as specific as intimacy and sex and how I
Speaker 1: came to like the only way like to get in
Speaker 1: that space, which is celebrated by most men, elicits that feeling.
Speaker 1: So that at a version has me like, I can't
Speaker 1: be vulnerable in that space. I have to dominate the
Speaker 1: space because the vulnerability feels weak. And the reason why
Speaker 1: we we vilify vulnerability is that oftentimes, and maybe the
Speaker 1: thing that you're thinking about women, is that we vilify
Speaker 1: vulnerability by then calling vulnerability a female or a or
Speaker 1: a feminine trait, and that makes it therefore weaker than
Speaker 1: being masculine. So it's like, if vulnerability represents womanhood or femininity,
Speaker 1: and and then we say femininity is beneath or lower
Speaker 1: or not as strong as masculinity, then of course who
Speaker 1: wants to be associated with that. So there's the feeling,
Speaker 1: and then there's also kind of like what we tell
Speaker 1: young people or young men that that feeling projects. So
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't want to feel this feeling, and
Speaker 1: I definitely don't want to project feeling this feeling in
Speaker 1: public because then I'm not a man, or then I'm
Speaker 1: not you know, and I just reject everything that's not manly.
Speaker 1: I watched this movie called Notes on the Scandal. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have ever seen this. It's
Speaker 1: with Um Dane, Judy Dench and Um I can't think
Speaker 1: of the other name. Lady's name who I adore. I
Speaker 1: think she's fantastic actress. But what happened in the movie
Speaker 1: is that a teacher, Because you know, they're getting arrested
Speaker 1: every month for for having sex with some little boy
Speaker 1: in their class. It's happening a lot. We can't ignore this.
Speaker 1: Anybody who's got a brother or a son or nephew,
Speaker 1: you gotta watch these bitches. I'm sorry I said what
Speaker 1: I said, You gotta watch these bitches. You cannot leave
Speaker 1: everybody alone with your child. We say this stuff about
Speaker 1: our daughters, or we can't leave our daughters with everybody.
Speaker 1: That's right, we also cannot leave our sons with everybody. Yes,
Speaker 1: you gotta watch people, period. But also we have to
Speaker 1: consider the fact that we assume also certain things about
Speaker 1: femininity that it's also nurturing. So we leave children with
Speaker 1: women because we believe them to be more nurturing than men.
Speaker 1: So if we if if we actually left our children
Speaker 1: with people who were actually nurturing, regardless of their sex
Speaker 1: then or gender, then we would be in a different place.
Speaker 1: We would be judging people who needed to be around
Speaker 1: our children based on their actions and not based on
Speaker 1: just what they show up as. And that's that backdoor
Speaker 1: support of patriarchy. You see, you inadvertently supported the system
Speaker 1: because I expect the female to be the nurturing individual
Speaker 1: as if she can't hunt to oh s, sorry, And
Speaker 1: that's that's exactly what's happening. You see it all the time,
Speaker 1: and you wonder, you know, I know, I wonder. I'm like,
Speaker 1: why is why is this? Why is this inability? It
Speaker 1: can't just be because you didn't see healthy relationships. That's
Speaker 1: not the only reason. You know, if if you're heterosexual
Speaker 1: and you know you want a relationship with the think
Speaker 1: you might want a relationship with the woman, Like what
Speaker 1: what is What's what's the big halt? And if the
Speaker 1: reality is most of the men that you know have
Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted by some woman. Hi, So when you
Speaker 1: take that shame and that humiliation from being sexually abused
Speaker 1: and you asked him to revisit that moment to prove
Speaker 1: his masculinity, of course he's gonna show up anger, not
Speaker 1: at the woman, but at the moment. See, that's so
Speaker 1: much complexity and simplis city. So when we look at
Speaker 1: a simple act of intimacy, the complexity is at all
Speaker 1: about the experiences that informed that moment. He's bringing all
Speaker 1: of that rage and that anger to that Why because
Speaker 1: he shows up as the protector he wished he had
Speaker 1: when he was abused, So he knows he on the
Speaker 1: scandal not to not to. I just wanted to just
Speaker 1: bring it back here. The woman that was was having
Speaker 1: sex with the with the young boy. Two things happened.
Speaker 1: One of them made me very happy. The mother, you know,
Speaker 1: finds out and whoops that ass And I I appreciated
Speaker 1: that moment because I feel like that's fair. The other
Speaker 1: thing is I believe she ended up having to go
Speaker 1: and spend some time in jail. Now, Agent I had
Speaker 1: this conversation and her being an abolitionist or in the
Speaker 1: journey to be an abolition so there's no jail time.
Speaker 1: I also feel like sexual predators may need to have
Speaker 1: their weapons taken around. Oh Lord Jesus, I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't like people that that that mess around with kids.
Speaker 1: I just can't. I can't do that. I can't do that.
Speaker 1: You also know that those kinds of perversions are not
Speaker 1: necessary that you know, it's not about the sex, it's
Speaker 1: about the you know, the power. Okay, three things. First
Speaker 1: of all, Okay, so prison as a general rule does
Speaker 1: not do anything to actually stop crime or or stop
Speaker 1: people from wanting to do crime, or fixes them or anything.
Speaker 1: Prison as we know it does not accomplish that. So
Speaker 1: there's to say that someone should do jail time because
Speaker 1: that then aligns with the emotion that you're feeling at
Speaker 1: the time, because you you what you want is reciprocity
Speaker 1: and justice, and you only choose the one thing that
Speaker 1: you have at your disposal, is is an emotional response
Speaker 1: that doesn't actually you know, fix your issue. So that's
Speaker 1: the reason why I'm like, well, go to jail. That's
Speaker 1: our goal to put into jail. Second, with castration or
Speaker 1: something like that, we live, I mean, until we fix
Speaker 1: the society we live in. You and I both know
Speaker 1: that something like that will more likely happen to brown women,
Speaker 1: and more likely happened to brown women who may or
Speaker 1: may not be guilty. But because that's an option and
Speaker 1: a tool for white supremacist, capitalistic society, they're gonna use
Speaker 1: it on us with impunity. They're just gonna say, you
Speaker 1: know what fun it she needs to have hercuch you
Speaker 1: sold up, or her clitter is cut off or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. That's what that looks like for a woman.
Speaker 1: And they've and they're already doing this to us and
Speaker 1: have a history of doing this to us. And it
Speaker 1: is a tool that is is a tool of torture
Speaker 1: that though in the emotion of wanting justice, and let
Speaker 1: me just say this, you can I think this is yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think I think this is RD lorrid. So
Speaker 1: forgive me. But she said, you can't dismantle the Master's
Speaker 1: house with the Master's tools. You need different tools. You
Speaker 1: need different tools. You can't you can't utilize these tools.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that I don't think, Well, what
Speaker 1: about in this situation when this this teacher is pregnant
Speaker 1: by one of her students, Because we say that a question,
Speaker 1: where are you aligning yourself dr webbing these solutions? How
Speaker 1: you feel about this? For me, that's a it's a
Speaker 1: slippery slope. Like even if we were to cash straight
Speaker 1: or we were just just sew up that, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying that the private parts, like it doesn't
Speaker 1: stop the mentality that initiated the behavior, Like we gotta
Speaker 1: address that, you know what I mean? Because what we
Speaker 1: what you gotta realize such sexual abuses, overt covert violation
Speaker 1: of value, like so like people are gonna do what
Speaker 1: they want to do even if they got a lot
Speaker 1: to do it, right, That's why they jails are fool Anyway,
Speaker 1: The aversion will manifest itself a different way, all right,
Speaker 1: So if you if you want to speak spiritually or travelally,
Speaker 1: like generational curses really ain't as mythical as as some
Speaker 1: of these religions make them out to be. It's this
Speaker 1: ship right here, when you passed on the aversion without
Speaker 1: it being confronted and checked. So now I learned my
Speaker 1: intimacy and I call it intimacy. I'm calling it something
Speaker 1: that's not. And then I'm showing up with you talking
Speaker 1: but let's be intimate. And then I'm trying to choke
Speaker 1: it or I'm trying to you know what. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not giving you your full range of comfort, but
Speaker 1: I'm calling that intimacy and that's not what it is.
Speaker 1: But I passed that alone. And now I'm patting my
Speaker 1: son on the back like, oh, you slept with a
Speaker 1: twenty six year old you fourteen. Don't tell your mama.
Speaker 1: You see that, that's that generation. I passed that on again.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, so can I can I just
Speaker 1: say this, And this is what we talk about all
Speaker 1: the time, is that you call ulture is one of
Speaker 1: the biggest hardest systems to break down because culture and
Speaker 1: language is so important. When you're passing along different things
Speaker 1: within your culture that's say this is intimacy or this
Speaker 1: is okay, or this is how you say this to
Speaker 1: use the word the language or the word intimacy and
Speaker 1: then and then attach it to behavior that's toxic and
Speaker 1: rat and ratchet and raggedy. Then this all just continues
Speaker 1: this again and again and again, and so I guess
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is I'm riding with Dr
Speaker 1: Web on this because at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: you have to address what's behind the harm. And I
Speaker 1: would say this much sometimes when I have the right
Speaker 1: word for something in my own kind of journey and healing,
Speaker 1: I can ask myself questions like, well, why do I
Speaker 1: want that? Or or why would I why would I
Speaker 1: allow myself to be in a situation that makes me
Speaker 1: feel that way? Or how do I not feel that way?
Speaker 1: Or what is it that I'm trying to get from that.
Speaker 1: So if the idea is that a person who is
Speaker 1: causing this har arm may not even themselves know that
Speaker 1: this is a power move or that this is about power,
Speaker 1: they having discussions with people about what power is and
Speaker 1: how it's expressed might actually help them understand that they
Speaker 1: can actually achieve that power in a different way. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that predators can be you know, fixed,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that sometimes that the language empower not
Speaker 1: just for people who are victims, but also people who
Speaker 1: actually cause harm, can empower them in a different kind
Speaker 1: of way to not cause that harm. And let me
Speaker 1: say this, like you can't control the chaos, You control
Speaker 1: you and the chaos, right, And there is a way
Speaker 1: to to live in a world where you absolutely trust,
Speaker 1: and that is to trust things to be what they're
Speaker 1: gonna be. One thing that we have to do is
Speaker 1: to recognize that the lion is in the wild and
Speaker 1: what he does, just like we recognize the rabbit is
Speaker 1: out there and the gazelle is out there. All of
Speaker 1: them have their role, they do what they do. I
Speaker 1: can't stop a racist from being a racist, but you
Speaker 1: know what I can do put him on notice that
Speaker 1: he can't be a racist right here. You can say
Speaker 1: that word, you just can't say it when I'm around.
Speaker 1: Why because there's consequences and repercussions for that, and we
Speaker 1: need to do our predators the same way. You're not
Speaker 1: gonna stop all of them. However, part of my job
Speaker 1: to show up is like like I'm here to protect
Speaker 1: the tribe, the family, on here to support the queen.
Speaker 1: She's here to support the king, and we do that
Speaker 1: by keeping a watch. Nature is always giving us the
Speaker 1: cues on how to do this. Why because there's the
Speaker 1: certain things that exist out there, and that's just how
Speaker 1: it is right. So you gotta stand watch on your cubs,
Speaker 1: just like you stand watch on your daughters, your your
Speaker 1: male sons need that too. Why because the minute that
Speaker 1: you robbed them of the innocence of childhood and they
Speaker 1: have to show up as men when they're not, they
Speaker 1: generally get older and they start acting like children because
Speaker 1: they missed that part. So that don't they don't know
Speaker 1: what commitment is, they don't know what trust is, they
Speaker 1: don't know how to love. They want to play games.
Speaker 1: So why cause I get to do that when I
Speaker 1: was little. That means you also have to let little
Speaker 1: boys play. You gotta let little boys be little boys.
Speaker 1: You gotta let little boys laugh. You gotta let them.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you how many times and
Speaker 1: we grew up. Oh you acting like a girl? You
Speaker 1: you acting them? Why are you laughing? Why are you
Speaker 1: smiling all the time? You corny? You so and so?
Speaker 1: And we treat little boys like they gotta the rigidness
Speaker 1: of trying to hold up masculinity. I feel bad for
Speaker 1: boys because that's that's exhausting. That's why I'm kind of curious.
Speaker 1: I want to ask doctor this question, Like, because you
Speaker 1: are the age that you are, but you deal with,
Speaker 1: you know, boys of a certain age as well. Do
Speaker 1: you find that the language, now that there is language
Speaker 1: for certain things, that the conversation is slowing easier than
Speaker 1: it would with our our folks, with our generation, because basically,
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean that's that's a host of
Speaker 1: things that that I think in a lot of regards
Speaker 1: are over sexualized in our kids. But I'll tell you this,
Speaker 1: this is what people don't like. We don't want to
Speaker 1: lean into this. I see more sexually aggressive females than
Speaker 1: our do males. Well, they always tell us we got yeah,
Speaker 1: I got that right. But when the when, the when
Speaker 1: the sexual aggression is, we'll spit on it and put
Speaker 1: it in here this way, and he's looking like, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? You know what I mean? And
Speaker 1: the dominance becomes like that same dominant shows up in
Speaker 1: that first experience. And keep in mind, y'allow, right, it's
Speaker 1: generally an older female. They may be teenagers, but she's
Speaker 1: generally a little older than the male from my experience.
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying, like even that that deviation of
Speaker 1: domination is showing up in the sexual females just as
Speaker 1: much as the male, Like, there's abuse happening on both sides, right,
Speaker 1: so we gotta we really gotta step it up. But again,
Speaker 1: we don't talk about the abuse and what it looks
Speaker 1: like on our young boys. And if we're not talking
Speaker 1: about it, then they're left to try to make sense
Speaker 1: out of it from an immature perspective. But again, if
Speaker 1: the if the image of the woman is constantly looked
Speaker 1: at as being docile, then we can't really look at
Speaker 1: how sexually dominant or aggressive women can be in our
Speaker 1: or even think about trying to better understand where it
Speaker 1: comes from. And that that starts to internal contradiction because
Speaker 1: we don't talk about that. But that's everything he felt.
Speaker 1: So how am I supposed to reconcile that? Right? Like right, right? Right? Not?
Speaker 1: That not a wisdom in my body. It's not matching
Speaker 1: the wisdom you're trying to put in my head. And
Speaker 1: those are two different wisdom, Like we gotta blend that.
Speaker 1: But let me just say this, Women not being docile
Speaker 1: has to be a truth that we accept across the board.
Speaker 1: It can't just be when we're talking about that they're
Speaker 1: victimizing young boys. We have to look at them as
Speaker 1: not docile period. Absolutely, because again I said again they
Speaker 1: women can hunt as well, and then a lot of
Speaker 1: as they hunt a hell of a lot, which is
Speaker 1: why they don't get caught up. And we don't even
Speaker 1: know these numbers. These numbers are scaring the hell out
Speaker 1: of me thinking about it, because I know already that
Speaker 1: boys don't even report sexual assault and god forbid, and
Speaker 1: and really their way of reporting It really is these
Speaker 1: conversations that we've been having with our men friends, is
Speaker 1: we're learning this data through them being, you know, just talking,
Speaker 1: just having casual conversation, and now we all have this
Speaker 1: social data around it, and it's scary. It's scary. So
Speaker 1: can we talk about that? Just the fault that it
Speaker 1: seems like the epidemic is the is this this way
Speaker 1: in which children themselves are just victimized. The children are
Speaker 1: some of the most unsafe people in the world. So
Speaker 1: so can I grab can we grab some friends and go?
Speaker 1: If they asked, like, what like something, I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean I mean something I need I need something. You
Speaker 1: We saw Antoine Fisher, right, and remember remember how emotionally
Speaker 1: disturbed he was, how he couldn't wanted to connect but
Speaker 1: didn't know how to that he had to go to therapy.
Speaker 1: We and that she folded her abuse into nurturing. She
Speaker 1: hid it in in the bullshit. I never forget at
Speaker 1: the end of that movie where he came to the
Speaker 1: door and she was like nigga, like she was happy
Speaker 1: to see them you home like that. I wanted to
Speaker 1: set her ablaze. I'm with you, Jill, I understand what
Speaker 1: that infuriated me. That that infuriated me, because that's the
Speaker 1: way I was just loving you. I was just taking
Speaker 1: care of you, making you happy. That's a movie, right,
Speaker 1: But we know what this happened to feel more slimy
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, But filmore slim has a story similar
Speaker 1: to that. Jay Brown had a story similar to that. Right,
Speaker 1: They was in these places getting that mind like blown,
Speaker 1: and then that was the foundation for how they interacted
Speaker 1: in every other relationship past that. And those are the
Speaker 1: ones that we know about because they're you know, iconic
Speaker 1: figures in their own right. But these things that happened
Speaker 1: to tell our little boys and they don't have that voice.
Speaker 1: So Steve Harvey had um I was talking about the
Speaker 1: girl who who jumped on him and tongue kissed him
Speaker 1: when he was a kid or whatever. You know, he's
Speaker 1: like probably like nine or ten years old, and he
Speaker 1: talked about it so much so that they brought the
Speaker 1: lady on the show. They brought her on the show
Speaker 1: and she stood up and you know, on camera, was like,
Speaker 1: remember me, I'm stuck the audacity right. How so to
Speaker 1: look at that machine? How how am I supposed to
Speaker 1: experience that abuse when a machine that big is celebrating
Speaker 1: my quote unquote initiation in the man? Well, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a lot we're asking of a young man to speak against.
Speaker 1: So like we have to become accomplices to his poet.
Speaker 1: Can I say this, though, the system that needs to
Speaker 1: be dismantled is the same one that men benefit from. Two.
Speaker 1: So when we talk about that system in terms of
Speaker 1: the way that they benefit from it and presented as
Speaker 1: the same one that is on their neck and causing
Speaker 1: their vulnerability and their victimhood to be erased, then how
Speaker 1: do we make that connection so that there is an
Speaker 1: investment from from older men and at least kind of
Speaker 1: dismantling the systemic part of it. The culture part of
Speaker 1: it is one thing. But then there's this, like you said,
Speaker 1: this machine, but that same machine that dehumanized and humiliated
Speaker 1: Steve Harvey is the same machine that is consistently telling
Speaker 1: men that this is what it is to be a man,
Speaker 1: and that women are beneath this and this, that it's
Speaker 1: the same, it's the same one. It is the same machine.
Speaker 1: But I would push back on, like, but what's the benefit?
Speaker 1: You know, just because it's the norm, don't mean that
Speaker 1: that that that's the benefit for a human being, not
Speaker 1: for a whole man. It ain't, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: you're but you're right. The machine exists, and it does
Speaker 1: spit out the equation that way. Absolutely. But what we're saying,
Speaker 1: like if children were so resilient, then so many adults
Speaker 1: would need therapy. Oh yeah, I hate when people say
Speaker 1: children are resilient. So that annoys the crap out of me.
Speaker 1: What is the benefit? I don't like people saying women
Speaker 1: are resilient. I don't like that. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: like none of that. Ship When you say women are resilient,
Speaker 1: you're just celebrating how well they suffer. I be like,
Speaker 1: this's just that's ragged. But you know, the the humanity
Speaker 1: of it all is what I'm interested in, is how
Speaker 1: we can really start looking at each other like human beings.
Speaker 1: And when people violate your humanity, that that's that's the enemy.
Speaker 1: The enemy is the violation of your humanity. And then
Speaker 1: what steps do we take from there? More real talk
Speaker 1: after the break. So what what I got out of
Speaker 1: this number one is that we absolutely have to watch
Speaker 1: over our cups like it's it's just not a game.
Speaker 1: It's just not because we don't know. We don't know
Speaker 1: what's wrong with people or what happened in their in
Speaker 1: their life. We don't know, So we have to be
Speaker 1: really mindful of the people that we allow around their children.
Speaker 1: And then and then what what does punishment is? That?
Speaker 1: Is that what we're looking at? The punishment? I want
Speaker 1: to know how we show up for boys? How do
Speaker 1: we show up for these young boys who have already victimized?
Speaker 1: How do we who do we? Who? Do they need
Speaker 1: for us as adult women to be for them? First all?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, we gotta, we gotta in
Speaker 1: our own way go against the celebration of this initiation,
Speaker 1: right and as as mothers um creating that space to
Speaker 1: really have that conversation. You know, I'm fortunate enough to
Speaker 1: be surrounded by strong women who are strong because they
Speaker 1: exercise their ability to create a palette where people can
Speaker 1: just have a conversation right about what that looks like
Speaker 1: and and what are the tricks that will be played
Speaker 1: how people enter into this space. Um, you know, I've
Speaker 1: been fortunate too through my practice to talk to pedophile,
Speaker 1: so I get an inside track on like what it
Speaker 1: looks like for them to whoa young women and young men,
Speaker 1: and like I bring that stuff home when I talked
Speaker 1: to my boys, like, yo, is this happening? Have you
Speaker 1: seen this? When you see this? This is what it's like? Like,
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, like what the narrative is? People are like
Speaker 1: why I wouldn't want to talk to a pedophile. When
Speaker 1: I talked to the pedophile and we had a conversation,
Speaker 1: like he taught me how he builds rapport so fast
Speaker 1: what a child like? I don't think like that, So
Speaker 1: he gave me inside like how he creates and makes
Speaker 1: things comfortable. He speaks to child's dialect, one that they
Speaker 1: can completely understand, right because as adults sometimes we talk
Speaker 1: over their head. Not to pedophile. He speaks to the
Speaker 1: things that that they find pleasurable at that developmental age,
Speaker 1: and those are the things that he used to lure
Speaker 1: me in. He uses their fear against authority to pull
Speaker 1: them in also, right as they want, they want to please,
Speaker 1: they want to be obedi hire, and he uses that,
Speaker 1: he leverages their their authority figures in that in that right, right,
Speaker 1: especially with children who have been taught to be seen
Speaker 1: and not heard to be following directions. Ultimately, when you
Speaker 1: tell a child to do what I say and don't
Speaker 1: ask questions, you are creating a follower. He knows that.
Speaker 1: So the other thing is like, we gotta sit down
Speaker 1: with our children and have critical conversations and allow them
Speaker 1: to develop their voice. Right. I tell my sons all
Speaker 1: the time, like, just because this person may hold the
Speaker 1: title of principle or vice principle does not mean that
Speaker 1: you stop being my son. So you tell them I
Speaker 1: ain't saying nothing till my father gets here, Right, I'll
Speaker 1: figure out the rest. Like, but you gotta he's gotta
Speaker 1: have the courage, both of them. And we talk about
Speaker 1: you know, Jil, We talk about this with the suns,
Speaker 1: like you gotta have the courage to stand in the
Speaker 1: moment until I get there, and when I get yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm coming. I can handle everything that's coming with me.
Speaker 1: But I just need you, like I gotta grow you
Speaker 1: so that you can hold the line until I get there.
Speaker 1: And you know, as mothers, we gotta teach our children,
Speaker 1: our sons to like hold the line. I'm coming to
Speaker 1: just hold the line. Man. If we can empower them
Speaker 1: to do that, I swear like that's that's going to
Speaker 1: change the trajectory, like with me and women look like
Speaker 1: in the tribe and the family, and that's what's going
Speaker 1: to change the narrative. Well, I think I think sometimes
Speaker 1: there's there's just a learning curve our parents didn't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like my mother knew to an
Speaker 1: extent because I did get that. You know, why you
Speaker 1: let them girls talk to you? Why you let them
Speaker 1: girls speak or have an opinion? People said this to
Speaker 1: my mother. I know this for a fact, you know,
Speaker 1: And I know that it's something that we as a
Speaker 1: as a generation struggle with because we want to give
Speaker 1: our child a voice. For a lot of us revert
Speaker 1: back to those old ways when it don't feel comfortable
Speaker 1: for us. When that child speaks up and they're speaking
Speaker 1: up to you. It's one thing to hold the line
Speaker 1: on somebody else, but when they have that opinion towards you.
Speaker 1: There's there's some pushback there, but I do think that,
Speaker 1: you know, as a group of parents, we're probably doing
Speaker 1: more of this than our parents did. As far as
Speaker 1: the young people that I know, they are definitely doing
Speaker 1: more of this. But I would say of the parents
Speaker 1: I know who have experienced children with their children who
Speaker 1: have been violated in some way, I would say, have
Speaker 1: the conversation earlier, because what has happened and what I've
Speaker 1: observed is that we're having that conversation with our young
Speaker 1: people when they're a little older, and we can really
Speaker 1: have it when they're much much younger. I think we
Speaker 1: underestimate how strong curiosity is, and so one of the things,
Speaker 1: and one of the is we combat that as much.
Speaker 1: Like you just said, you know, we have the conversation,
Speaker 1: have the intimate conversation, you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: I remember when my boys came to me one time
Speaker 1: and there's you know that their friends who at school
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, where he's gonna put his dick?
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, man, sitting ou let's talk
Speaker 1: about why, because that's that's one way we describe it
Speaker 1: under one dialect. And then we went through all the
Speaker 1: other names that you may hear it called. But I
Speaker 1: just need you to understand what's being said when it's
Speaker 1: being said, Like I want you to speak multiple dialects,
Speaker 1: because Daddy speaks multiple dialects. The way I talk on
Speaker 1: this show ain't the way I talked when I'm sitting
Speaker 1: in my living room when I'm you know, like, I
Speaker 1: got multiple ways that I'm gonna translate or get this
Speaker 1: message off. And there's two different things that happened. There's
Speaker 1: a translation that happens, and then the next like that
Speaker 1: has to be an interpretation of the translation. You can't
Speaker 1: just stop at the translation. Interpret that for me. Why
Speaker 1: Because I want to make sense of this information so
Speaker 1: I can claim it to be knowledge. That means that
Speaker 1: you can't go from fear. We've been talking to these kids.
Speaker 1: Immediately we get scared of the ship they're about to
Speaker 1: say or and then we respond with that fear response.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I talked to a parent
Speaker 1: like that one time. Um My daughter would and her
Speaker 1: daughter were like texting back and forth during class and
Speaker 1: one and it was like a picture of a joke
Speaker 1: or something somebody had but been over something stupid something
Speaker 1: that she just was like freaked out by. But the
Speaker 1: mom was very very churchgoing and things like that, nothing
Speaker 1: wrong withould be in church going. But the point is
Speaker 1: that she was so fearful of what this could possibly
Speaker 1: mean that she didn't even have no conversation with the
Speaker 1: children or thought that there was any context to it,
Speaker 1: which it was tons of it. But because me and
Speaker 1: my kid talked, now I found myself having to call
Speaker 1: his other parent who explain to her and talk to
Speaker 1: her about what I had a conversation with my child about.
Speaker 1: She hadn't even talked to her a kid. So I
Speaker 1: think it's a fear thing. I know we are scared
Speaker 1: as parents. I know some things can be like triggery
Speaker 1: for us because it's like okay, and you think, oh no, this,
Speaker 1: that and the other and this me and my kids
Speaker 1: this or this means their friends are this or bola blah.
Speaker 1: But we can't let the fear stop us from having
Speaker 1: these conversations and just listening and being open, because the
Speaker 1: kid knows when you're talking to them and you're just
Speaker 1: listening for the bad stuff or whatever you think means something,
Speaker 1: and then you you chime in with your crap. They
Speaker 1: actually want to believe that you're having a real conversation
Speaker 1: with them. I mean, they can feel it when you're not,
Speaker 1: and they will hold back. I really think I think
Speaker 1: kids will absolutely hold back there watching all your energy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: You've been surprised how many parents show up protecting their
Speaker 1: kids from the thing that they needed to be protected from.
Speaker 1: And so like, uh, you know. The analogy that I
Speaker 1: use is like, if I grow themselves, they think themselves
Speaker 1: need to be protected from. So like that's how we we.
Speaker 1: If I grew up and I was hungry, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I make a promise to my family
Speaker 1: is that you all never go hungry. So every time
Speaker 1: they walk in the house, there's food on the table,
Speaker 1: from meat to whatever you may call it. And my
Speaker 1: sons could be looking at me and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool. I'm like, you're hungry. They're like now. And
Speaker 1: then I going upstairs and they're sitting there, but they said,
Speaker 1: but that I'm thirsty. My experience was one that did that.
Speaker 1: You didn't. I'm dehydrated. You've been giving me food when
Speaker 1: my experience lash water. You know what I'm saying. So
Speaker 1: now I gotta open up my awareness and realized, like
Speaker 1: the time to save me in that situation has come
Speaker 1: and gone, which means I gotta I gotta make sense
Speaker 1: of that. I gotta get the lesson from that, open
Speaker 1: up my awareness to take any information and then truly
Speaker 1: provide what they need. So a lot of times when
Speaker 1: kids are asking you why, why why, it's not defiance.
Speaker 1: It's because when their brain develops, they're trying to connect
Speaker 1: the dots to understand what problem solving and conflict and
Speaker 1: critical thinking actually look like. And so we as people
Speaker 1: of color, especially in our community, we gotta get out
Speaker 1: of this or uh massive obedient or authoritarian space and
Speaker 1: we gotta sit down and help them develop their critical
Speaker 1: thinking muscle. What's the next iteration of that? I gotta
Speaker 1: be able to critically think in the critical moment. So
Speaker 1: it ain't even not enough for me to critically think.
Speaker 1: I gotta be able to do it in the critical moment. Why,
Speaker 1: because that is the thing that changes our trajectory. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna run. I'm literally trying not to get up out
Speaker 1: of this chair and run and run from the top. Listen, sir, yeah, sir,
Speaker 1: thank you. Thurman Ala Wishes Dante Jock Kuan Daniel Web
Speaker 1: you age a confirmed, it's official. That's all. Okay. Listen.
Speaker 1: If I give you a middle name, it's it's And
Speaker 1: if you get sat sir, wait, do I have a
Speaker 1: little name? Girl? You've had many many, you have had many.
Speaker 1: I've given you many throughout the course of this this podcast,
Speaker 1: Jill Rhodesia Scott look look here, family, j dot l
Speaker 1: is it's a podcast that we have conversations to spark conversations.
Speaker 1: It's been a while since I said that, but that's
Speaker 1: what this is. And we're we're here too to learn
Speaker 1: what you say live? Are you called it? Learning? Live learning,
Speaker 1: live learning, lives happening right now. We're discussing things and
Speaker 1: and and finding out, um, how much, how deeply and
Speaker 1: sincerely we have to pay attention and listen to our children,
Speaker 1: how much we have to share with them because these
Speaker 1: predators are out there. They really are, they really are.
Speaker 1: And sometimes they're in your church, sometimes they're in their school,
Speaker 1: sometimes they're amongst friends and these things. I still feel
Speaker 1: like the tribunals will come and whoop they ask. That's
Speaker 1: my feelings. I think in the in the middle of
Speaker 1: the time, you've gone too far, You've done too much
Speaker 1: shot before we get to the whooping ask portion, please
Speaker 1: talk to your children, Please talk to your sons. It's
Speaker 1: not just male predators, it's also female too. Okay. They
Speaker 1: are valuable and important and you know that. So keep
Speaker 1: your eyes open, keep your ears open, and uh keep
Speaker 1: your heart open. Okay, listen to them babies. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Dr Webb, and thank you so much everybody
Speaker 1: out there for listening again to Jay dot Ill the podcast.
Speaker 1: Be good, y'all. How do you eat an elephant? One
Speaker 1: by it time? Hey, listeners, it's Amber, the producer of
Speaker 1: j dot Ill. Today's conversation was intense and important. If
Speaker 1: you are anyone you know is dealing with sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: you can reach out to RAIN dot org. Rain r
Speaker 1: AI n N is the nation's largest anti sexual violence organization.
Speaker 1: I'll leave a link in the show notes. Also, if
Speaker 1: you want to connect with Dr web check out his
Speaker 1: websites at rebrand the black Man dot com and centered
Speaker 1: Person dot com. Or you can find him on Instagram
Speaker 1: at rebrand the black Man Alive. Links to his websites
Speaker 1: and the show notes. Hi, if you have commen so
Speaker 1: on something we said in this episode called eight six six, Hey, Jill,
Speaker 1: if you want to add to this conversation, that's eight
Speaker 1: six six nine five four five five. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: tell us your name and the episode you're referring to.
Speaker 1: You might just hear your message on a future episode.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Jill Scott Presents Jay dot Ill.
Speaker 1: The podcast Jay dot Ill is a production of I
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