WEBVTT - Jonathan Spollen 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:18.165 School of humans. The holy city of Rishikesh, India buzzes 0:00:18.245 --> 0:00:24.165 with those seeking spiritual sustenance. Elabrad ashrums full of foreign 0:00:24.245 --> 0:00:28.045 revelers echo with the holy prayers and songs of sat Soong, 0:00:28.765 --> 0:00:32.565 led by a Guru or Sadu draped in saffron robes 0:00:32.645 --> 0:00:36.245 and guiding their devotees with a contemplative voice of authority. 0:00:37.645 --> 0:00:42.285 Incense infuses the air during Puja, a religious ceremony performed 0:00:42.325 --> 0:00:45.285 on the gats of the River Ganges. A line of 0:00:45.405 --> 0:00:49.325 men adorned an intricately designed robe with s gaze out 0:00:49.365 --> 0:00:53.125 at the holy water, rhythmically chanting while they present their 0:00:53.165 --> 0:00:57.765 offerings in a circular motion to the Hindu deities they worship. 0:00:59.525 --> 0:01:02.605 And the sprawl of yoga studios that have burgeoned in 0:01:02.685 --> 0:01:07.085 succession after Rishikesh was recognized as the birthplace of yoga, 0:01:07.325 --> 0:01:11.085 thanks him part to the father of transcendental meditation, the Maharishi, 0:01:11.605 --> 0:01:16.245 whose foresight and wisdom lured the Beatles to Rashakesh, where 0:01:16.325 --> 0:01:19.925 holiness hangs heavy in the air and the simplicity the 0:01:19.925 --> 0:01:23.485 Beatles were forced to adopt that the Maharishi's ashrum led 0:01:23.525 --> 0:01:31.165 to a creative clarity that birthed the White album. It's 0:01:31.205 --> 0:01:35.565 February third, twenty twelve. Twenty eight year old Jonathan Spalen 0:01:35.725 --> 0:01:39.845 walks over the narrow, heavily trafficked bridge. He's got pale 0:01:39.845 --> 0:01:42.925 skin from his Irish lineage, dark hair of that hangs 0:01:42.965 --> 0:01:46.445 around his shoulders, and a beard evidence of the over 0:01:46.565 --> 0:01:49.845 two months he's been traveling through India. But unlike the 0:01:49.885 --> 0:01:53.285 other Western seekers he passes who are carrying yoga mats 0:01:53.405 --> 0:01:58.005 or in a daze from deep meditation, Jonathan doesn't romanticize 0:01:58.045 --> 0:02:02.405 the spiritual offerings of Rishikesh. On his last trip to India, 0:02:02.525 --> 0:02:06.805 he interviewed Pralad Johnny, a wiry monk with wide blue 0:02:06.845 --> 0:02:10.525 eyes and a vacant gaze. If prala Johnny looks a 0:02:10.565 --> 0:02:13.125 little out of it, it's because he and his followers 0:02:13.165 --> 0:02:16.685 claim that he lived without food or water for eighty years. 0:02:17.485 --> 0:02:22.045 He was called a breathrean monk because he survived on air. 0:02:24.925 --> 0:02:27.685 Jonathan met with Johnny to write an article about him 0:02:28.045 --> 0:02:30.845 while the monk was still alive, and though some people 0:02:30.885 --> 0:02:34.685 assumed that he was a follower, Jonathan was not influenced 0:02:34.685 --> 0:02:38.245 by Johnny. As a journalist, it was just another job. 0:02:39.165 --> 0:02:42.725 Jonathan has worked in journalism and Cairo, Abu Dhabi and 0:02:42.885 --> 0:02:46.005 Hong Kong. In a two thousand and ten article he 0:02:46.045 --> 0:02:50.325 wrote for The National about Nanog, a Kashmiri village, his 0:02:50.565 --> 0:02:54.525 curious and empathic prose easily drop readers into the day 0:02:54.525 --> 0:02:57.405 to day of the Kashmiris, not only giving us a 0:02:57.485 --> 0:03:00.925 taste of their lives, but an awareness of the peaceful, 0:03:01.005 --> 0:03:04.765 simplicity of their culture, which Jonathan states in his article, 0:03:05.605 --> 0:03:10.325 I knew I was idealizing romanticizing life in Nananog, but 0:03:10.445 --> 0:03:13.325 the real benefits of living there were too great and 0:03:13.405 --> 0:03:20.045 too many to ignore. As Westerners consumed with our phones, tablets, 0:03:20.085 --> 0:03:24.085 the overall noise of our culture and the expectations, it's 0:03:24.125 --> 0:03:27.845 easy to idealize an escape, which is something many parts 0:03:27.845 --> 0:03:33.885 of India can offer. On this trip, Jonathan's third to India, 0:03:34.125 --> 0:03:37.285 he's at a crossroads in his life and as contemplating 0:03:37.325 --> 0:03:41.685 whether to continue journalism or go into documentary film. This 0:03:41.805 --> 0:03:44.045 question hangs in the air as he prepares for a 0:03:44.085 --> 0:03:46.565 solo track he's going to make into the dense wooded 0:03:46.645 --> 0:03:50.845 terrain of the Himalayas outside Rishikesh. His visa is about 0:03:50.845 --> 0:03:53.125 to run out, so instead of going to Delhi as 0:03:53.125 --> 0:03:56.405 originally planned, this will be his last hurrah in India. 0:03:57.805 --> 0:04:00.845 He calls his mom, Linda's balin back in Dublin to 0:04:00.845 --> 0:04:03.485 tell her about his track. They're close and have been 0:04:03.525 --> 0:04:06.085 keeping up on his travels through India a text and 0:04:06.165 --> 0:04:09.285 sporadic calls here and there. When Linda hears of his 0:04:09.405 --> 0:04:12.485 planned a trek through the Himalayas solo, she asks that 0:04:12.605 --> 0:04:15.725 he consider going with a guide. Jonathan shrugs off from 0:04:15.725 --> 0:04:18.765 eternal instinct with a simple answer, I want to do 0:04:18.805 --> 0:04:24.205 it on my own, kind of a spiritual thing. If 0:04:24.205 --> 0:04:28.405 you google India syndrome, Jonathan's Wikipedia page is listed under 0:04:28.405 --> 0:04:31.485 the definition, and part of that is because of this 0:04:31.565 --> 0:04:34.645 throwaway comment he made to his mom before a solo 0:04:34.765 --> 0:04:39.605 trek he would never return from. As we've discussed, India 0:04:39.645 --> 0:04:43.285 syndrome is defined as a psychosis that hits Westerners in 0:04:43.285 --> 0:04:48.045 India seeking some sort of spiritual enlightenment, and through expert interviews, 0:04:48.085 --> 0:04:51.165 we've deciphered that India syndrome is a theory, not a 0:04:51.165 --> 0:04:56.045 medical diagnosis. But it's also a speculation that's plagued Jonathan's 0:04:56.085 --> 0:05:00.285 disappearance since he was reported missing on February twenty seventh, 0:05:00.365 --> 0:05:06.205 twenty twelve, I wanted to interview Jonathan's mom, Linda on 0:05:06.325 --> 0:05:10.005 her thoughts about her son's widely publicized comment about his 0:05:10.045 --> 0:05:13.845 solo track being a spiritual thing. Was it blown out 0:05:13.885 --> 0:05:17.965 of context or was her son actually seeking something and 0:05:18.045 --> 0:05:22.685 the solitude of the Himalayas. Linda and I connected and 0:05:22.725 --> 0:05:25.565 spoke several times the past few months, and I've heard 0:05:25.605 --> 0:05:28.205 her thoughts on many things, but I never got an 0:05:28.245 --> 0:05:32.005 official interview, and therefore will not be sharing our communication 0:05:32.125 --> 0:05:38.765 and this episode. And this is why, Hey, hello, you 0:05:38.925 --> 0:05:42.285 sleep deprived as hell. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. 0:05:42.325 --> 0:05:44.165 I mean, I mean, I know where this anxiety is 0:05:44.205 --> 0:05:48.365 coming from. But this is Gabby as Stray, supervising producer. 0:05:48.845 --> 0:05:50.965 I'm in my voice over booth. She's in her room. 0:05:51.405 --> 0:05:54.045 We live literally two blocks away from each other, and 0:05:54.125 --> 0:05:56.685 this is what we do during the pandemic. We meet 0:05:56.725 --> 0:05:59.965 on zoom in separate homes in the same neighborhood and 0:06:00.085 --> 0:06:05.405 interview people. But today we're having a different conversation. Hi, 0:06:05.605 --> 0:06:09.365 here's Akita, our third in the Estray producing trio. I 0:06:09.445 --> 0:06:11.645 don't know if I've told you this, but I did. 0:06:11.685 --> 0:06:15.845 I loved you a voice moment, but Linda dropped out again. 0:06:17.565 --> 0:06:22.405 Jonathan Spalin's story jump started this podcast, a podcast focused 0:06:22.445 --> 0:06:25.965 on India, a country halfway around the world, which made 0:06:26.005 --> 0:06:30.285 this past year during COVID pretty tricky, especially while navigating 0:06:30.285 --> 0:06:34.165 our original plan to investigate Jonathan's disappearance on that solo 0:06:34.205 --> 0:06:37.725 track through the Himalayas. Yeah, I heard that, and you 0:06:37.805 --> 0:06:43.445 were thinking of your integrity, doubting it. After the investigation 0:06:43.525 --> 0:06:47.365 blew up because of pandemic related reasons, Linda backed out, 0:06:47.685 --> 0:06:49.725 which was tough because she and I had formed a 0:06:49.765 --> 0:06:53.125 relationship and I had come to value her opinion along 0:06:53.125 --> 0:06:56.405 with genuinely wanting to help her answer questions surrounding her 0:06:56.445 --> 0:07:01.245 son's disappearance. Ultimately, I knew how important Linda's voice would 0:07:01.245 --> 0:07:03.885 be in telling Jonathan's stories, so I re engaged her 0:07:03.885 --> 0:07:06.805 in the process and had at least two episodes devoted 0:07:06.805 --> 0:07:09.965 to Jonathan because his story is one that really impacted me. 0:07:10.685 --> 0:07:13.925 But she backed out again literally two days ago, which 0:07:13.965 --> 0:07:16.605 just put us in a scramble. We've been working so 0:07:16.685 --> 0:07:19.685 hard to make her feel comfortable with this process, even 0:07:19.765 --> 0:07:23.765 sharing the outline with her, and I just feel like 0:07:23.805 --> 0:07:26.845 she's disappointed in the process. But also, and I think 0:07:26.885 --> 0:07:29.725 Gabby you might have said this. I think she's also grieving. 0:07:30.165 --> 0:07:33.245 This is the month where Jonathan went missing. And but 0:07:33.285 --> 0:07:36.005 I just feel like we've built this relationship and now 0:07:36.245 --> 0:07:39.205 it's just blown up, and like I've disappointed her, and 0:07:39.525 --> 0:07:41.765 then it makes me feel like I'm a bad person, 0:07:41.845 --> 0:07:44.965 Like am I exploiting her son? You know? Like I 0:07:45.005 --> 0:07:48.205 don't know. I just feel really I feel really torn 0:07:48.245 --> 0:07:52.885 about it. Obviously I was emotional after she backed out. 0:07:53.605 --> 0:07:57.365 I questioned myself my motives for doing this podcast, the 0:07:57.525 --> 0:08:00.885 intimate human stories I'm sharing of these men who have disappeared. 0:08:01.845 --> 0:08:04.845 When you investigate stories like this, you get pulled in 0:08:05.005 --> 0:08:09.445 and cases form relationships with the families. And that's tough 0:08:09.525 --> 0:08:13.365 because our job is to expose information, and sometimes there's 0:08:13.485 --> 0:08:16.765 conflict in that clarity, because people don't want that information 0:08:16.805 --> 0:08:19.885 to lead to further speculations when they don't even have 0:08:19.885 --> 0:08:24.965 clear answers themselves. Throughout this process, I felt like I've 0:08:24.965 --> 0:08:28.445 been skating this line between entertainment, which you all tune 0:08:28.445 --> 0:08:31.725 in for, an ethics, which should be at the core 0:08:31.765 --> 0:08:36.045 of all journalism, especially in true crime investigations. But when 0:08:36.085 --> 0:08:40.085 Linda dropped out, I questioned all of it, and even 0:08:40.125 --> 0:08:43.285 writing his episodes really hard. I mean, you're trying to 0:08:43.325 --> 0:08:45.965 answer to your questions and unfortunately you have to do 0:08:46.005 --> 0:08:48.885 that by using examples, and Jonathan is an example of it. 0:08:49.005 --> 0:08:52.725 So you're not doing anything that's unethical because you are 0:08:52.885 --> 0:08:56.645 putting in the work to answer questions and like make 0:08:56.685 --> 0:09:01.805 a contribution to our conversations around spirituality. So that's Gabby 0:09:01.845 --> 0:09:03.965 talking me off a ledge, but it's also a peak 0:09:04.005 --> 0:09:07.365 behind the curtains blow up. In true crime, you're dealing 0:09:07.405 --> 0:09:11.365 with loss, be it someone's disappearance or death, and as 0:09:11.445 --> 0:09:15.005 podcast facilitators, we have to navigate the heavy emotions and 0:09:15.165 --> 0:09:18.845 grief that surround that, which can either fuel an investigation 0:09:19.605 --> 0:09:23.445 or put an end to it. This stopped being only 0:09:23.485 --> 0:09:26.325 about Jonathan a long time ago, but now it's not 0:09:26.445 --> 0:09:29.405 even like he's the main person around who the entire 0:09:29.445 --> 0:09:33.045 story revolves. There are many more people now, there are 0:09:33.045 --> 0:09:37.405 many more families and keep his right. Originally this was 0:09:37.445 --> 0:09:41.285 supposed to be a single true crime investigation about Jonathan's 0:09:41.285 --> 0:09:45.245 spawn's disappearance, but after it ended the first time, the 0:09:45.325 --> 0:09:50.005 investigation morphed into something bigger as we found more stories 0:09:50.045 --> 0:09:54.565 and felt compelled to examine deeper questions. I wanted to 0:09:54.565 --> 0:09:57.325 get to the why rather than just unravel the how. 0:09:58.085 --> 0:10:01.645 Though the how in Jonathan's case is still extremely ambiguous, 0:10:01.685 --> 0:10:05.365 which for this episode, Linda wants to keep that way, 0:10:05.485 --> 0:10:08.405 and honestly, we don't know what happened to Jonathan, you know, 0:10:08.645 --> 0:10:13.325 and she's never taken spirituality or the sort of spiritual 0:10:13.405 --> 0:10:15.925 question off the table. She's always been like, well, I 0:10:15.965 --> 0:10:18.405 want to keep everything open. So I guess I'm just 0:10:18.485 --> 0:10:20.845 trying to be really aware of that, like, as we 0:10:21.085 --> 0:10:24.685 sort of come into the era of true crime, how 0:10:24.725 --> 0:10:27.645 can we have bridge of the gap between entertainment and ethics. 0:10:28.565 --> 0:10:31.165 I'm going through my own existential crisis about how to 0:10:31.245 --> 0:10:34.845 roll out this episode. I respect Linda wanting to steer 0:10:34.885 --> 0:10:39.605 clear of assumptions and sensationalism, and honestly, because there's nobody 0:10:39.845 --> 0:10:43.445 it's not fair to adhere to one speculation. And though 0:10:43.525 --> 0:10:46.965 Ryan Chambers parents, especially as brother Aaron, have leaned into 0:10:46.965 --> 0:10:49.925 the larium theory, they've never closed the door on any 0:10:49.965 --> 0:10:54.685 of the other possibilities surrounding Ryan's disappearance and Jonathan's episode. 0:10:55.085 --> 0:10:58.045 Instead of deep diving into a story with Linda, which 0:10:58.045 --> 0:11:00.365 we had planned, to do. I'm going to tell his 0:11:00.485 --> 0:11:04.205 story with someone Linda respected. Yeah, we had a really 0:11:04.325 --> 0:11:07.445 nice conversation, and I know I remember her saying that 0:11:07.485 --> 0:11:11.085 she felt like the story had been misrepresented, you know, 0:11:11.125 --> 0:11:14.685 other people trying to sensationalize things that they didn't have 0:11:14.845 --> 0:11:18.925 answers to right, And so I was honored that she 0:11:19.045 --> 0:11:22.285 was willing to talk to me. This is journalist Jessica 0:11:22.365 --> 0:11:25.885 Rabbits speaking about a conversation she had with Linda that 0:11:26.005 --> 0:11:30.565 informed the twenty fourteen CNN article she wrote about Jonathan's disappearance. 0:11:31.165 --> 0:11:33.485 She didn't pump up the drama or settle in any 0:11:33.525 --> 0:11:37.605 one speculation, so out of respect for Linda, I think 0:11:37.645 --> 0:11:40.565 it's only fair to have Rabbits, a journalist who I've 0:11:40.605 --> 0:11:49.285 also come to appreciate, helped tell Jonathan's story. A colleague 0:11:49.565 --> 0:11:52.845 heard I was going to India, to rishie Kesh in particular, 0:11:53.565 --> 0:11:56.605 and she came up and told me about a former 0:11:56.645 --> 0:12:00.165 colleague of hers and her previous job who had gone 0:12:00.165 --> 0:12:04.045 missing in rishie Kesh, and that was Jonathan Spalin. In 0:12:04.085 --> 0:12:08.045 twenty fourteen, It's traveled to Rashikesh for a poignant article 0:12:08.125 --> 0:12:11.725 she wrote about her own spiritual awakening like Jonathan, she 0:12:11.805 --> 0:12:16.885 witnessed this spiritual mecca firsthand. But Risha Kesh is not 0:12:17.085 --> 0:12:21.045 all love and light. There's something dark lurking there too, 0:12:21.965 --> 0:12:25.525 being in Rishikesh. I mean just it's a spiritual Disneyland, 0:12:25.685 --> 0:12:29.245 and everyone there is trying to teach and be a 0:12:29.285 --> 0:12:34.645 guru and gather a following and maybe rip people off financially. 0:12:34.765 --> 0:12:37.365 Like you know, there's so much that you could fall 0:12:37.485 --> 0:12:41.245 victim to. This is the more ominous side of Rashakesh 0:12:41.285 --> 0:12:43.925 when we see all too often in the States the 0:12:44.005 --> 0:12:48.805 consumerism of spirituality, which can lead to false prophets, scams, 0:12:49.325 --> 0:12:52.845 and a handful of other frauds used debate trusting seekers. 0:12:53.565 --> 0:12:56.805 I remember very, you know, kind of stopping in my 0:12:56.885 --> 0:13:00.405 tracks when I saw the Jonathan Spallen poster, and I 0:13:00.445 --> 0:13:02.885 think it's because, you know, I had his face on it, 0:13:02.925 --> 0:13:06.165 and I'd seen his face, you know, in searching for 0:13:06.245 --> 0:13:10.005 stories about him online, but it was very faded when 0:13:10.005 --> 0:13:13.045 I saw it. Jonathan had been missing for at least 0:13:13.085 --> 0:13:17.245 two years at this point. At the top of Jessica's article, 0:13:17.445 --> 0:13:20.645 there is a picture of Jonathan's missing poster. On the 0:13:20.725 --> 0:13:24.605 poster are two photos of Jonathan and one his dark 0:13:24.645 --> 0:13:28.605 brown hair is down, his charming bearded face smiling, his 0:13:28.725 --> 0:13:31.685 eyes connected to him. Ever is taking the photo. He 0:13:31.765 --> 0:13:35.125 looks easy going, present, like someone you'd sit down for 0:13:35.165 --> 0:13:38.965 fifteen minutes with and lose two hours. And the other photo, 0:13:39.365 --> 0:13:42.205 Jonathan's hair is pulled back, he has the sunglasses on 0:13:42.205 --> 0:13:46.205 his head, He's not smiling, his eyes are detached. He's 0:13:46.205 --> 0:13:51.765 somewhere else. David Hammerback, the academic I interviewed in episode two, 0:13:52.405 --> 0:13:55.685 commented on these missing posters, saying they looked like they 0:13:55.765 --> 0:13:58.525 belonged on the side of a milk carton. He believes 0:13:58.565 --> 0:14:01.565 Jonathan was painted as a victim by the media, with 0:14:01.605 --> 0:14:07.125 the perpetrator of the crime being India. Though I'd agree 0:14:07.125 --> 0:14:10.165 that Jonathan was not a victim of India at the country, 0:14:10.525 --> 0:14:13.485 Who's to say Jonathan wasn't a victim of something or 0:14:13.565 --> 0:14:17.125 some one dangerous while he was there. Though there has 0:14:17.165 --> 0:14:21.365 been no evidence of Jonathan's body, there was evidence found 0:14:21.365 --> 0:14:25.885 nearest belongings, evidence that led some authorities to believe that 0:14:26.005 --> 0:14:43.645 Jonathan didn't disappear by accident but by choice. A broad 0:14:43.685 --> 0:14:48.405 shouldered Indian police officer walks through dense woods. He speaks 0:14:48.405 --> 0:14:51.325 directly to a camera following him on a trail of 0:14:51.445 --> 0:14:56.045 lush greenery, brambles, rocks shutting through the earth. There's a 0:14:56.085 --> 0:14:58.645 look of concern in his kind eyes as he maps 0:14:58.645 --> 0:15:02.325 out the spot near Garuchati Waterfall, a hot spot for 0:15:02.405 --> 0:15:06.645 tourists and Rishikesh, especially during the monsoon when the waterfall 0:15:06.765 --> 0:15:10.365 flows at seven different levels. This is also the spot 0:15:10.405 --> 0:15:17.605 where Jonathan's belongings were found. This is Kundaneggi, the lead 0:15:17.645 --> 0:15:21.525 officer on Jonathan Spalin's case. It's been five years since 0:15:21.605 --> 0:15:25.725 Jonathan has reported missing on February twenty seventh, two thousand 0:15:25.725 --> 0:15:28.525 and twelve, which was two and a half weeks after 0:15:28.645 --> 0:15:32.325 Jonathan's last conversation with his mother, Linda, when he told 0:15:32.325 --> 0:15:35.125 her he was going on a track through the Himalayas 0:15:35.765 --> 0:15:39.445 alone and that it was kind of a spiritual thing. 0:15:43.165 --> 0:15:47.165 A March eleventh of twenty twelve, an American couple discovered 0:15:47.245 --> 0:15:50.765 Jonathan's belongings in a wooded clearing not far off the 0:15:50.765 --> 0:15:54.045 main trail where the officer Kundaneggi is now leading a 0:15:54.085 --> 0:15:58.525 BBC camera crew. The belongings consisted of a bag with 0:15:58.645 --> 0:16:03.205 Jonathan's passport, phone charger, clothing and some Hong Kong coins 0:16:03.245 --> 0:16:07.965 still inside. According to a BBC article written by Roland Hughes, 0:16:08.445 --> 0:16:11.925 a colleague of Jonathan's, and Abu Dhabi, there was also 0:16:11.965 --> 0:16:15.925 a hospital record and ultrasound scan in the bag, which 0:16:15.965 --> 0:16:18.605 showed that Jonathan had been suffering from kidney stones at 0:16:18.645 --> 0:16:22.685 some point during his stay in India. Next to his belongings, 0:16:23.165 --> 0:16:25.525 a sleeping bag was laid out with a book on 0:16:25.565 --> 0:16:29.285 top of it. Nothing had been touched. It looked like 0:16:29.325 --> 0:16:31.125 a site that was set up to come back to, 0:16:31.485 --> 0:16:36.525 not disappear from. It was also reported that people who 0:16:36.525 --> 0:16:38.605 had seen Jonathan and the weeks leading up to his 0:16:38.645 --> 0:16:43.525 disappearance had noticed he'd lost weight and appeared frail. They 0:16:43.565 --> 0:16:45.885 also said he was walking with a slight limp due 0:16:45.885 --> 0:16:49.525 to a recent fall on a trail. So if this 0:16:49.645 --> 0:16:52.165 is the case, he wasn't in the best condition to 0:16:52.285 --> 0:16:56.565 endure a strenuous solo track. This seems obvious, but what 0:16:56.685 --> 0:17:01.085 stumped authorities, leading them to question if Jonathan chose to disappear, 0:17:01.845 --> 0:17:05.605 was evidence found a few days after his belongings a 0:17:05.685 --> 0:17:09.325 route to the city of Patna. What was found on 0:17:09.365 --> 0:17:13.805 a narrow trail or bawled up identification cards and papers, 0:17:13.805 --> 0:17:18.925 including Jonathan's health card and Hong Kong travel pass. According 0:17:18.965 --> 0:17:24.285 to Hughes's BBC article, these discarded identification items pointed to 0:17:24.325 --> 0:17:28.125 one conclusion. Jonathan was doing what some foreign seekers do 0:17:28.205 --> 0:17:33.045 in rashaksh deliberately shedding his possessions and pass life to 0:17:33.125 --> 0:17:36.405 renounce who he was so he could follow a new, 0:17:36.685 --> 0:17:41.565 enlightened path. And according to Hughes, the photocopies of articles 0:17:41.565 --> 0:17:45.885 on spiritual matters found in Jonathan's bag indicate that this 0:17:46.005 --> 0:17:52.445 was something he was considering. Directly after Jonathan's disappearance, a 0:17:52.565 --> 0:17:56.365 local newspaper in India said the case was new proof 0:17:56.445 --> 0:18:01.045 of the phenomenon of individuals, mostly male, disappearing at the 0:18:01.085 --> 0:18:05.605 religious hotspots of India and around Knoxman Julia Suspension Bridge. 0:18:05.965 --> 0:18:09.685 The article quoted a senior police officer who ascribed the 0:18:09.725 --> 0:18:18.005 trend to renunciation fueled by spiritual awakening. So I think 0:18:18.005 --> 0:18:21.445 that originally I was reached out to just in terms 0:18:21.645 --> 0:18:25.205 of did you know him? Do you have any idea 0:18:25.245 --> 0:18:29.485 what might have happened to him? This is Sudvi Bagwati 0:18:29.565 --> 0:18:34.725 Saraswati or said Viji for short. She's a spiritual leader 0:18:34.765 --> 0:18:39.005 living in India who fueled by a profound spiritual awakening 0:18:39.605 --> 0:18:43.045 did renounce her life in California in nineteen ninety six. 0:18:43.525 --> 0:18:47.125 For one she felt called to in Rishikesh, India, where 0:18:47.205 --> 0:18:52.845 Jonathan disappeared, Saidviji has the presence of someone touched by 0:18:52.845 --> 0:18:55.965 a higher power. When she appeared on the zoom with 0:18:56.125 --> 0:19:00.205 the pristine sounds of nature surrounding her, I could suddenly 0:19:00.245 --> 0:19:04.925 breathe deeper. So I think they then probably wanted to 0:19:05.005 --> 0:19:09.205 keep talking to just get some idea of some clarity here. 0:19:09.245 --> 0:19:13.885 I was another foreign person who had made a decision 0:19:13.965 --> 0:19:16.925 to renounce, and so they may have thought that I 0:19:16.925 --> 0:19:21.325 could give some advice in that way. Sadvigi is Hindu, 0:19:21.805 --> 0:19:26.365 and through renouncing, she exchanged worldly assets for spiritual ones. 0:19:27.205 --> 0:19:31.405 But was this Jonathan's intention? That's what authorities in Jonathan's 0:19:31.445 --> 0:19:34.365 family wanted to find out, which is why they reached 0:19:34.405 --> 0:19:38.205 out to Sadvigi after his disappearance, to get some sense 0:19:38.245 --> 0:19:41.805 of understanding around someone choosing to renounce their past life 0:19:41.805 --> 0:19:46.125 in the West for one in India, which, as we've discussed, 0:19:46.565 --> 0:19:50.725 some of the evidence near Jonathan's belongings points to a 0:19:50.765 --> 0:19:54.925 little bit later, they ended up finding papers and passport 0:19:55.125 --> 0:20:00.725 kind of torn up and thrown along pathways somewhere, and 0:20:00.965 --> 0:20:04.405 when after a lot of searching, they didn't find his 0:20:04.525 --> 0:20:10.525 body somewhere. Usually, if someone drowns in Gana, either accidentally 0:20:10.645 --> 0:20:14.205 or on purpose, eventually a body will wash up downstream, 0:20:14.765 --> 0:20:18.165 not after that long. Genga is also known as the 0:20:18.205 --> 0:20:21.925 Ganges or Mother Gaya. It's the holy river that runs 0:20:21.925 --> 0:20:26.925 through rashakesh As. They were not having any luck with 0:20:26.965 --> 0:20:30.285 any clues suggesting that he would have drowned in the river, 0:20:31.045 --> 0:20:34.285 and they were getting more clues that either he or 0:20:34.405 --> 0:20:40.125 someone had thrown his identity papers around. They started thinking 0:20:40.125 --> 0:20:45.325 that maybe he had wandered off, just wandered off into 0:20:45.325 --> 0:20:49.645 the Himlaas. Again, this sounds like a Chris McCandless tale, 0:20:49.965 --> 0:20:53.005 an Eastern into the wild, with someone retreating into the 0:20:53.085 --> 0:20:57.165 solitude of nature. But there is a romanticism around this 0:20:57.245 --> 0:21:01.685 idea of renouncing one's life. It's a clean slate, exchanging 0:21:01.685 --> 0:21:05.125 the noise and societal expectations of the West for the 0:21:05.205 --> 0:21:09.205 pea and purity of the East, which is something Jonathan 0:21:09.245 --> 0:21:12.325 apparently idealized when he wrote his article about life in 0:21:12.365 --> 0:21:16.765 the Kashmiri village nerinag But what a longing for peaceful 0:21:16.805 --> 0:21:22.125 simplicity make someone renounce their life, leaving their beloved family, friends, 0:21:22.205 --> 0:21:28.525 pets behind, choosing to vanish. So no one renounces their life. 0:21:29.285 --> 0:21:34.605 What you renounce is a way that you were formerly 0:21:34.765 --> 0:21:39.365 identified in your own mind, a way that you thought 0:21:39.485 --> 0:21:47.565 of yourself certain roles or relationships or ways of living. 0:21:48.285 --> 0:21:53.525 We renounce sensual pleasures, so we take vows of celibacy. 0:21:54.445 --> 0:22:01.645 We renounce ownership, so we take vows of simplicity. We 0:22:02.805 --> 0:22:06.605 dedicate our lives to God. We renounce the idea of 0:22:06.725 --> 0:22:10.965 a family being just you know, three or four or 0:22:10.965 --> 0:22:14.445 five members. When we speak about renunciation of the family, 0:22:15.365 --> 0:22:18.565 what it means is that we recognize that the whole 0:22:18.565 --> 0:22:25.325 world is our family vasude. This is a Sanskrit phrase 0:22:25.365 --> 0:22:29.965 in India meaning the entire earth is our family or 0:22:30.125 --> 0:22:35.325 one family. So renunciation is not this romanticized idea of 0:22:35.445 --> 0:22:39.805 leaving your past life behind. Choose a simpler one said, 0:22:39.885 --> 0:22:42.805 VG renounced to be in service of a higher calling 0:22:43.325 --> 0:22:47.005 and the world. So if Jonathan renounced, he would be 0:22:47.125 --> 0:22:52.085 of the world, not someone who dropped out of it. Also, 0:22:52.205 --> 0:22:55.085 there's no doubt that Jonathan was deeply connected to his 0:22:55.205 --> 0:22:58.845 mother Linda. Their bond was evident not only from the 0:22:58.845 --> 0:23:01.685 way Linda speaks about her son, but because of his 0:23:01.805 --> 0:23:05.405 consistent communication with her when he traveled, and this third 0:23:05.525 --> 0:23:09.045 trip to India was no exception. There are times during 0:23:09.085 --> 0:23:11.085 his travels where he would drop out for a week 0:23:11.165 --> 0:23:13.525 or so due to bad cell phone service or to 0:23:13.565 --> 0:23:16.805 conserve his phone's battery, which is something he warned Linda 0:23:16.805 --> 0:23:18.765 about on their call before he took off on his 0:23:18.805 --> 0:23:22.725 solo track. But dropping out of his life entirely seemed 0:23:22.725 --> 0:23:27.285 out of character for Jonathan. I wasn't able to speak 0:23:27.285 --> 0:23:30.765 with Jonathan's father, David Greene, but I do know when 0:23:30.765 --> 0:23:33.765 he was reported missing, David flew to India to assist 0:23:33.765 --> 0:23:36.605 with the search effort, and according to an Irish Times 0:23:36.685 --> 0:23:41.125 article written in April twenty twelve, a month after Jonathan disappeared, 0:23:41.805 --> 0:23:45.805 David was quoted saying, there is some evidence to suggest 0:23:46.085 --> 0:23:49.725 Jonathan was interested in a spiritual pathway. My trip to 0:23:49.765 --> 0:23:52.445 India shed a light on him. For me, I have 0:23:52.525 --> 0:23:55.645 at times thought I was looking at somebody completely different 0:23:55.685 --> 0:23:58.725 to the son that I knew, to suddenly discover that 0:23:58.765 --> 0:24:01.645 there may be a whole spiritual aspect to his life, 0:24:02.005 --> 0:24:07.165 though he hadn't really touched on is astonishing. Linda Spalen 0:24:07.325 --> 0:24:11.125 and David Greene have not spoken to Jonathan in nine years, 0:24:11.845 --> 0:24:14.445 which I can imagine for parents who deeply loved their 0:24:14.485 --> 0:24:18.965 son and fervently searched for him, would be complete anguish. 0:24:19.405 --> 0:24:22.925 According to Sadvigi, the fact that Jonathan has not reached 0:24:22.965 --> 0:24:25.925 out to his parents says even further evidence that he 0:24:25.965 --> 0:24:30.405 did not renounce in the spiritual sense. My Guru made 0:24:30.405 --> 0:24:34.525 it very clear to me. He said, Ay, I had 0:24:34.565 --> 0:24:37.525 to take their blessings before I took some nas, but 0:24:37.805 --> 0:24:42.805 b I also stay in touch with them. Sadvigi is 0:24:42.845 --> 0:24:46.045 speaking about the communication she had with her family before 0:24:46.085 --> 0:24:50.045 she renounced and her ongoing relationship with them. When we 0:24:50.125 --> 0:24:55.045 speak about renouncing the family, it has to do with 0:24:55.205 --> 0:25:00.925 renouncing those relationships and attachments that thwart us on our 0:25:01.005 --> 0:25:07.285 spiritual path, those that hold us hostage in a specific identity, 0:25:07.805 --> 0:25:12.925 in a specific attachment, in a specific role, in favor 0:25:13.085 --> 0:25:21.005 of the spiritual freedom of living as soul spirit consciousness. 0:25:21.325 --> 0:25:26.565 That's where the renouncing of family in the vows of 0:25:26.645 --> 0:25:32.885 segnas come in. But it's not about bringing pain and 0:25:33.085 --> 0:25:35.685 suffering to those who have given you birth. That wouldn't 0:25:35.685 --> 0:25:39.805 be a spiritual thing. Mostly, it's important to realize that 0:25:39.885 --> 0:25:47.525 renounciation is not running away, it's embracing something very very 0:25:47.565 --> 0:25:55.485 beautiful and very real, very true. It's not a moving 0:25:55.525 --> 0:26:00.165 away from it's a moving toward. So if Jonathan didn't renounce, 0:26:00.765 --> 0:26:04.885 like some authorities and media speculated, then what happened to 0:26:04.925 --> 0:26:09.205 his body? Garachati is one of the most popular tourist 0:26:09.245 --> 0:26:13.485 spots in rashaksh so it's unusual that while Jonathan's belongings 0:26:13.525 --> 0:26:19.165 were found, he was not. Kundanegi, the lead officer on 0:26:19.245 --> 0:26:23.725 Jonathan's case, ends the BBC video shot three years after 0:26:23.845 --> 0:26:33.045 Jonathan was reported missing, saying I believe that he is 0:26:33.085 --> 0:26:37.845 alive and I'm still hopeful that we will find him. 0:26:37.885 --> 0:26:41.765 I mean, who knows. In two thousand and one, seventeen 0:26:41.845 --> 0:26:45.165 years after his disappearance, when his parents and the Austrian 0:26:45.165 --> 0:26:48.565 embassy in India had lost all hope of his being alive, 0:26:49.285 --> 0:26:54.005 an Austrian national reappeared, saying he went missing by choice 0:26:54.005 --> 0:26:57.845 in India so he could live in complete peace. This 0:26:57.925 --> 0:27:00.805 case was reported and a twenty eighteen article for the 0:27:00.805 --> 0:27:04.445 Tribune in India. There was also someone they talked to 0:27:04.645 --> 0:27:09.085 who said that he was reading Shanta Dam the book, 0:27:09.165 --> 0:27:12.205 and so they thought, well, maybe that inspired him to 0:27:12.405 --> 0:27:16.205 kind of disappear off the grid. That book found on 0:27:16.245 --> 0:27:19.365 top of Jonathan's sleeping bag. It's been reported that it 0:27:19.405 --> 0:27:22.485 was Shantam. If reading Catcher in the Rye is a 0:27:22.525 --> 0:27:26.445 write of passage for angsty teens, that's Shantam for foreigners 0:27:26.445 --> 0:27:30.285 in India looking to reinvent themselves or fall off the grid. 0:27:31.085 --> 0:27:34.245