WEBVTT - Challenging Golf Course Architecture’s Status Quo with Tim Jackson and David Kahn 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.480 This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is brought to 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:08.200 you by us the Friday Egg. We are doing a 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:12.760 small little sale for all podcast listeners. If you use 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.440 the code winter Blues and the pro Shop you will 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.320 get ten percent off. We've got a lot of stuff 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:20.960 in there. We've got hoodies, We've got t shirts, We've 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:25.040 got hats, we've got polos. We also have golf course prints. 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.480 We've got a lot of new prints up in the shop. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.440 If you didn't get one for Christmas and you wanted one, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:32.640 you want to spruce up your office or your your 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:35.920 you know, the walls of your home. 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I wanted to get down to Arizona to 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.160 see uh David Kahn and Tim Jackson's work at Scottsdale 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:43.560 National before I had him on. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:45.960 They are young. I guess young. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.480 Young is a relative word in the architecture community. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:50.880 I said this to a friend. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.760 They're like, I didn't know any any golf architect was 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:55.440 young relatively speaking. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.560 They're young. They worked for Tom Fazio. 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.680 They are evolved off of that tree, and they are 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.400 building some really thought provoking stuff. Scottsdale National was really 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.440 a cool course to see. Unbelievable the earthwork that they 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.680 did to build that golf course and how real it looks. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.720 So I was quite excited. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.239 We went down and spent a day with Tim and 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.960 David and talked a lot, and they've got some different 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:26.040 opinions than many that come on this podcast, So it 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.919 was it was fun to get a little bit different 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.680 perspective on golf course architecture, and certainly a duo that 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.560 I would be looking out for and excited about their 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.560 future work as they get more and more jobs in 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.440 the coming years. So without further ado, here is David 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:45.919 Kahn and Tim Jackson. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.680 How would you guys describe your design style? 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.480 Yeah, no, I haven't either. How would we describe a 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.840 design style? I'll say this we we we I think 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.280 our design style hopefully is we don't want to necessarily 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.040 repeat what we've done in the past. I mean, I 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.720 think there's a lot of golf course designers. You could 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.120 you know, you could be air mailed into the middle 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.360 of a golf course do a three sixty. You know 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.919 who designed the golf course, just based upon the style, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.560 the features, the look. You know, when you're on a 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:24.320 Pete Die golf course. There's a lot of great peed 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:25.840 Die golf courses. You know you're on a peed Die 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.919 golf course, right when you're on a you know, a 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:30.519 Nicolas course. A lot of times you know you're on 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.360 a Nicholas course or you know, a Palmer course or 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.960 things of that nature. We we don't necessarily like to 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.520 you know, we try to do different things quite honestly. 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:42.440 You know, we want each project to be unique, not 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.760 be a replication of what's been done in the past. So, 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:46.800 I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily designed style, 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:48.400 but that's a thought that we have quite a bit. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:48.920 Yeah. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.560 I mean, not only is it important for the client 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.040 to give them something different to help their product and 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.600 business differentiate from competitors, but as a designer selfishly, it's 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:03.720 more fun to explore new ideas. So, you know, I 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:10.080 think we we have overarching philosophies that apply to every project, 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.200 but the physical manifestation of those philosophies, we hope, are 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.680 you know, varied to the point where it doesn't seem 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:17.880 like we're just copy and pasting. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:20.239 Would you guys think. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.719 It's fair to say that you'd fall into the maximalism camp. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:25.560 What is the maximalism can? 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:26.719 I don't know. 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.360 You know a lot of architects today identify themselves as minimalists, 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.160 like where they want to move as a little dirt 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.000 as possible and kind of let. 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.320 The lay of the land be the I don't I 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.000 don't know how the world out there defines maximalism, but 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.880 I will say that we try very very hard to 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.000 maximize the potential of the design in every project. So 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.160 if that's the definition of it, then I'd say, without 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.760 a doubt, where maximalism maximalists, that does not mean we 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.200 look to move the most amount of dirt in every project. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.839 But if that's what's required to maximize the potential, then absolutely, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:03.760 we're not scared to do it. 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.200 Yeah, you know, I think that, and I'm gonna be 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:13.200 very honest. There's not a lot of designers out there 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.360 that can successfully take on a project where, in order 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.560 to maximize the golf potential, say you need to move 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.680 four or five million cubic yards of material and then 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.240 create great golf by doing that, right, there's a lot 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.680 of designers that can take a great piece of ground 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.440 and design a great golf course. You know. I think 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.080 once you know that you can take a piece of 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.279 property that may be featureless, that may not have the 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.400 greatest elements, the greatest starting elements, and create great golf, 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.360 it gets pretty easy after that, quite honestly. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.960 So you think, you know, I think like conventional thought 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.320 recently is like you need a great site to build 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:56.880 great golf. 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:58.479 Can you build great golf anywhere? 0:05:59.200 --> 0:05:59.800 Absolutely? 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:00.760 Yeah. 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.440 I mean they're different, they're different, you know, kind of 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:06.520 vibes and results at the end of the day. But 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.680 I think that if the desire is there from the 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:16.160 client and if the funding is there, depending on what 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.599 you're starting with at a certain point there is money 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:23.120 that is required to build these things, then I don't 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.359 think there are any excuses for not being able to 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:27.600 create something spectacular. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:28.720 Yeah, you know, the. 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.360 You always want to spend the client's money as efficiently 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.720 and as responsibly as possible, right, but you also want 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.040 to make sure that you achieve the client's goals. And 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.039 you know, again there's a starting point and there's a 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.680 desired end result. And if you have the experience to 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:47.360 understand and know what it's going to take to get 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.560 from point A to point B, and the client's willing 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.480 to support that, there's no reason to hold back from that. 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.960 In our opinion, you know, we we've not necessarily been 0:06:58.000 --> 0:06:59.599 blessed with the opportunity to work on a lot of 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.279 amazing in sites natural sites for golf. In our careers. 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:04.840 We've had to work on a number of projects, both 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:06.919 when we were with Tom and as Jackson Cohn that 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.680 required a lot of heavy moving, have a lot of 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.840 heavy lifting to create the golf, essentially create the environment 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:14.200 and kind of put the golf in it. I guess, 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.560 you know, for for lack of a better term, and 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.000 we feel that we've been you know, relatively successful with that. 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.880 Fortunately, when you say Tom is Tom. 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.040 Yes, yes, yes, yes, So you know, in terms like 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.320 I think like what are the misconceptions about moving dirt 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:31.880 to create something? What? 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:33.200 What do you guys think. 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.400 Some in meeting with clients or you know what, or 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:37.680 just general conversation. 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.920 Well, you know, I think that I think that when 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.400 you look about how golf is written about, and you 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.480 look about at the golf writers that are kind of 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:51.200 active today in golf, they have collectively a very narrow 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.400 bandwidth on how they feel golf should be created, right, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.520 And I think that a lot of people read that 0:07:57.720 --> 0:07:59.160 and a lot of people feel that that's the way 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:00.800 that golf should because they say that's the way the 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.760 golf should be right. You know, the end result is 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:09.000 really what matters. And I'll be honest, you know, there's 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.200 a lot of guys that we've encountered in our career, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.240 critics who are just aboring at the thought that we 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.280 would take a piece of ground and move the amount 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.720 of dirt that we do, and we could take them 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.680 out there and they could never tell what was a 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.160 cut or what was a fill. The whole key is 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.040 you have to do it on a scale that you 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.760 create believability in the end result, right, you know, I 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.360 think that you know, we've been fortunate we were taught 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:33.920 how to do that. You know, it's not something that 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:36.440 I think that you you know, just instinctively know how 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.680 to do. But again, you know, we had a lot 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.559 of pieces of ground in our career that the expectations 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:45.199 were very high as far as what the end result 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.400 for golf was going to be, and the starting point 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:48.120 was not that great. 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.719 I think that's something, you know, having senior guys work 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:57.360 at Scottsdale National the other course, like something that you know, 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.120 when you think manufactured golf, you kind of like my 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.440 mind goes to containment mounds and you get those like 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.280 eight to ten foot containment mounds down the right or 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:13.200 the left side, and you know, little mound here, something 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.080 that kind of like what amaze me what you just 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:22.199 said is making it look real and the scale of it. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.520 You know, can you talk about that, like what what 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.400 have you guys learned to make stuff look real that 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:34.320 is very manufactured you know in essence like it's completely created, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.440 but it looks like it's been there for a long time. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.720 So you know, in order to trick the human mind, 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.760 it has to be built at a scale large enough 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:50.839 where you can't immediately or ever perceive you know that 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.480 dirt was actually moved at that immense scale. And what 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.400 I mean by that is, you know, like to your point, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.200 the old kind of nineteen eighties shaping where it's just 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.400 mounds left right of the golf hole. There you can 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:07.520 clearly see the man made very rhythmic, very engineered slope. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.120 Clearly man touched that. And that doesn't en and up 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.120 itself make it bad, but it's it's just striking to 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.280 the eye. It's like, well, that's somebody built that. And 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:22.120 and in our minds, and we learned a lot, you know, 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:27.800 working with Tom and senior designers there. When you move dirt, 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:29.760 when you have to move dirt, when you need to 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.000 move dirt, move it at a scale large enough. And 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.840 and what I mean by that is, don't just necessarily 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.320 do it within one golf hole, have that cut, have 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:43.680 that fill, you know, transition from one to another to 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.000 a third, maybe a fourth golf hole. And when it's 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.040 done at that large of a scale, it looks like 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.880 a very natural landform. Obviously the shape and esthetic and 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.440 you know the contouring of that movement has to be 0:10:56.480 --> 0:10:58.400 done in a very organic and natural way and not 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.800 very rhythmic, like I said, not engineered. Constant planes, constant 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.800 slopes are immediately scream you know, engineered. And like I said, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:08.640 I love Pete die work, and he did a lot 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:13.360 of that angular, very sharp contouring, and it's it's awesome, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.040 you know, it's just not the style. I guess to 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.680 go back to your first question of you know, what 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.959 appeals to our eye, and that's something we did on 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.080 the other course of Gustil National is really really large cuts, 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.920 really really large fills, not not vertically but also horizontally. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.280 Well, I think too. I guess the most extinct way 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:33.880 of saying is that you have to manufacture in a 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.120 way that looks as natural as possible when it's all 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:37.880 said and done right, and and a lot of that 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.000 is how it's put back together. So you know, there's 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.880 always the base movement that you're creating, the cuts, the fills, 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.720 the elevations. But then what do you do with those 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.640 those cuts and those fills and elevations when it's all 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.280 said and done. What's the vegetation that goes back in? 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.240 You know, what's the you know, the the rock worker 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.520 and in the you know, in the essence Discustile National. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.079 You know, we had to blast the lake into the 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.600 irrigation lake, you know, into the ground with I think 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.559 was a sixty foot cut to the bottom of irrigation lake 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.840 hit bedrock at eighteen inches eighteen inches right, So that 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.960 was you know, fifty eight and a half feet of 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.640 rock that needed to be excavated out of there. That 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.280 rock was repurposed around the golf course and placed in 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.520 a way that it actually added it and enhanced and 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.520 made the environment look more natural than if we didn't 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.120 have that. I mean, there's so many areas of Scotstill 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.600 National that are so heavily manufactured and nobody knows they feel. 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.280 You know, one of the bessest compliments I think we 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:31.880 had from Rand Morris set is everyone's going to think, 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.240 you guys had this amazing site for golf because the 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.800 end result looks so real and it looks so nice, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:38.079 and it is real. I mean, it is real. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:42.000 It's just you know, you know, the interesting thing about 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.280 all of rock out there was in our initial budget 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:50.800 we had we were bringing in rock from offsite because 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.960 we always wanted that look to kind of match the 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.839 natural surroundings. We had no idea that we were sitting 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.400 on solid bedrock. And so when we started making the 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.880 cut for the lake and we found that mother earth 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.920 right underneath there, eighteen inches down, and immediately we're like, well, stop, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.000 stop ordering the truckloads of rock to come in, and 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.440 we have it all right here. And so, you know, 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.640 we utilize that kind of happy accident and repurposed that 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.719 all over the property to uh to kind of eminitize 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.400 the landscape and you know, make it a believable landscape. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.160 And on the landscape architect pinnacle design that was involved 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.680 in that project was equally as important to making that 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.320 scene in that environment believable because we could have built 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.760 all the cool landforms in the world. But if you 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:34.840 top that, like Tim said, with the with the wrong 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.319 vegetation or just kind of poor planting or really manufacture 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.960 kind of we call it the bad hair transplant equally 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.880 spacing equally sized plants, then it just it ruins the 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:45.240 whole effort. 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.160 Yeah, golf architecture likes to be considered an art, but 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.040 what you just hit on is an interesting, you know, 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.480 divergence from so many other forms. Like if you're a painter, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.439 you just you sit in your house and paint stuff 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.800 and then people buy it and then maybe you start 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.520 to do some custom commissions, right, like really successful painters 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.520 though just paint stuff. But golf like you're you're always 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.760 tied to what an owner, a developer, a client, a 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:21.320 committee wants. So in a way, your your art form 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:23.760 is somewhat constrained. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.640 Right, Well, you try to choose the projects I think 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.400 where it's least constrained, hopefully, but there's considerations, there's always 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.440 compromising considerations along the way. Right. You can't design in 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.560 a bubble, you can't design in a vacuum. And you know, 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.160 it's you know, we understand that many of the clubs 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:44.000 that we work with now you know, existing clubs, you 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.280 know there's members that are very passionate about their golf courses, right, 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:49.680 and you have to, you know, you have to be 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.200 able to take what they feel they want their golf 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.160 course to be and you know, show them what you 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.120 think the potential could be and then you try to 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:57.840 bridge that gap a lot of times because there's a 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.000 pretty big disconnected times as far as what that might 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:04.160 be with kind of maximalism. 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:10.800 I'm curious, you know, in creating these environments. You know, maintenance, 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:13.720 and you know, I think a lot of people assume 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:15.560 if you move a lot of dirt then you're going 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.600 to have a higher maintenance budget. Is that true? 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.280 No, not at all. No, you may have a slightly 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.440 higher construction cost maybe. I mean in the big scheme 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.400 of things, when you're building a golf course, moving dirt 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.640 is not a big line item blasting, you know, dealing 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.960 with rock absolutely is, But just moving the dirt is 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.560 not is not that expensive. It's again, it's what you 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.920 put on top of it. How many square feet, how 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.960 many acres of turf do you how many square feet 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.760 acres of bunkers, how many square feed acres of greens? 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.840 That's what matters is It doesn't matter if you found 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:54.240 that site as is and you grasped it, and may 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.640 you know that maintenance is pretty much the exact same 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.440 as opposed to if you manufactured it. If you have 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.800 the same amount of square footage of golf at the 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:05.800 end of the day, it doesn't matter how you got there. 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.760 The maintenance, the maintenance starts at that point forward. So 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.920 it's it's it's independent. Yeah, it's part of the earthwork. 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:14.560 A lot of it goes into how well golf course 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.320 is constructed as far as what the maintenance requirements are. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.120 The follow right, and I'm going to give you a 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.120 prime example between maximalism and minimalism with that. Okay, So 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:24.760 you know, again, one of the things that we learned 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:26.760 from Tom Fazio is that the infrastructure that you put 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.400 in the ground supports which you do on top of that, 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.360 and if you don't get the foundation right, you're going 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.440 to have issues after the fact, right, So you know, 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.080 we know, we feel like we know what it takes 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.640 from an irrigation standpoint, from a drainage standpoint, the things 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.480 that the members never see to be able to have 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.880 a successful project. And we work with the golf course superintendents. 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.120 My degree is in agronomy, it's not in landscape architecture, right, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.040 so I'm a turf fed So I'd love talking with 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.880 those guys. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it affects 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.040 what we do from a design standpoint. Sometimes we have 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.400 a lot of conversations about maintenance and what that, what 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.160 that means, but we always try to give them what 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.199 they need to be successful to support the design. So 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.159 there's a very well known architect who did a project 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:11.040 out west and he wanted irrigation spacing in a desert environment, 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.760 high desert environment that was going to create dry areas 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.440 and wet areas because he didn't want everything perfectly green, right, 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:23.159 minimalist designer, minimalist design I don't want perfect irrigation spacing 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:24.960 because I want this browned out looking areas. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:25.200 Right. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.159 No understanding of what that was going to do to 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:30.440 the golf course superintendent when the members came to him 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.080 and said, why does the golf course look this way? Right, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.120 the minimalist architect dictated the irrigation design in a way 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.000 that was going to create so much more maintenance for 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.240 the golf course superintendent because his guys were going to 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.240 be out there on hoses, hand watering areas. Because the 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:47.639 members would never have accepted that. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:47.920 Right. 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:50.760 We recognize the fact that we want to support the 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.520 golf course superintendents of what they need to achieve the expectations. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.520 It's not always about us at the end of the day. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.080 We want to give them what they need. But there's 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.360 a minimalist designer was his thought, and he was going 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.920 to create far, far more maintenance for the superintendent. Was 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:04.719 all said and done. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:10.760 Yeah, I mean, in to kind of oversimplify, you can 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.600 put more money into the construction to then reduce maintenance 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.160 needs moving forward. So you know, it's it's it's it's 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.879 not the minimalism. It's absolutely maximalism. But you know that 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:24.800 can be in any aspect of life, not just golf. 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.600 You know, you can put it into your house, more sustainability. 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.040 You can put solar on your roof. Well, that costs 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.400 a lot, but look now you have no power bill 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:33.000 moving forward. 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:34.000 So there are. 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.160 Ways you know, with the construction of the golf course 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.320 with better irrigation system, you know, better spacing, better head control, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.520 all that stuff that costs an arm and a leg 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.520 to put in upfront, but you know that that pays 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:45.520 dividends in the long run. 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.000 Well, I always, like everybody always like, oh good architecture 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.120 costs more money, but like when you look at it 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.719 from the design standpoint and building, it's something that's gonn't 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:55.359 really sound. 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.960 It's construction. Construction costs. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:18:59.520 It actually saves you a lot of money in the 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.879 long run because if if it if it cuts your 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.600 maintenance bill by one hundred thousand dollars for thirty years, 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.880 So you're you're probably high fiving, you know about hey 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:09.800 we save some money. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:11.560 Yeah, No, I mean yeah, So it's you know, for 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.600 us again, it's it's it's it's not Maximuslimbers. It's getting 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.160 it right, you know, quite honestly. And you know, again, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.639 you know, hopefully working with clients, have the resources to 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.359 be able to build something correctly. 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.240 And getting it right for that client, and you know, 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.239 good or bad it that's that's what we do. We 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.080 work for a client. We're not We're not an artist 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.680 just going in our basement and drawing on a canvas 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.760 and saying I like it. It's that would be great, 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:38.760 But we don't have that much money to just go 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.119 and you know, buy hundreds of acres of land and 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.119 just kind of fiddle around. So we are, at the 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.760 end of the day working for somebody that has to 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.960 meet some degree of a bottom line, and it's our 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.640 responsibility and task to be able to maximize those opportunities 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:54.840 with staying within that constraint in those realities. 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.480 So yeah, you know, I think i'd love to hear 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.840 who This is a question I love to ask architects, 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:07.440 and I've been particularly interested with your guys's answer. Who's 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.720 on your Mount Rushmore of golf architecture. So you get 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.000 four spots, right, I want to hear who you guys 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.440 is Mount Rushmore of golf architects. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.439 For me, Mike Strants would have the biggest head chiseled 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.240