1
00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:24,324
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a reminder for all of our Risky Business

2
00:00:24,444 --> 00:00:29,724
Speaker 1: fans and listeners. Next week, on the eleventh of December,

3
00:00:29,764 --> 00:00:32,644
Speaker 1: which is a Wednesday, Nate and I will be hosting

4
00:00:32,724 --> 00:00:37,364
Speaker 1: a meetup poker game at the Bellagio Poker Room. So again,

5
00:00:37,404 --> 00:00:41,444
Speaker 1: that's December eleventh at noon at the Bellagio. We hope

6
00:00:41,484 --> 00:00:44,124
Speaker 1: to see you there. There is an RSVP form, It's

7
00:00:44,124 --> 00:00:46,444
Speaker 1: a Google docs. Please fill it out. If you're planning

8
00:00:46,444 --> 00:00:49,284
Speaker 1: on coming, it's going to be in the show notes,

9
00:00:49,364 --> 00:00:51,444
Speaker 1: so check those out. Click on the form and we

10
00:00:51,484 --> 00:00:52,484
Speaker 1: hope to see you next week.

11
00:00:52,604 --> 00:00:55,284
Speaker 2: Yeah. The Belagio, by the way, is in Las Vegas, Nevada,

12
00:00:55,284 --> 00:01:00,284
Speaker 2: actually technically in like Paradise. I think Paradise, but you

13
00:01:00,324 --> 00:01:02,284
Speaker 2: fucking know what the Belagio is. If you're if you're

14
00:01:02,324 --> 00:01:04,084
Speaker 2: a poker player who listens to this show.

15
00:01:04,084 --> 00:01:04,524
Speaker 1: Yes you do.

16
00:01:04,804 --> 00:01:06,484
Speaker 2: Not the one in Italy. I'd been to the one in.

17
00:01:13,364 --> 00:01:16,684
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions.

18
00:01:16,804 --> 00:01:18,404
Speaker 1: I'm Maria Kannakova.

19
00:01:18,084 --> 00:01:19,044
Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Silver.

20
00:01:19,444 --> 00:01:20,764
Speaker 1: What are we going to be talking about on the

21
00:01:20,764 --> 00:01:21,484
Speaker 1: show today.

22
00:01:21,284 --> 00:01:25,884
Speaker 2: Night, Well, today we'll be talking about Hunter Biden and

23
00:01:26,204 --> 00:01:29,444
Speaker 2: the failure of Joe Biden's presidency, which you disagree probably

24
00:01:29,644 --> 00:01:32,084
Speaker 2: on that characterization as well as the particulars.

25
00:01:33,524 --> 00:01:36,044
Speaker 1: No, actually, you'll be surprised to hear that I do

26
00:01:36,164 --> 00:01:40,364
Speaker 1: not disagree on that particular thing. But we'll be talking

27
00:01:40,364 --> 00:01:42,644
Speaker 1: about that and then we'll do something a little bit lighter,

28
00:01:42,964 --> 00:01:48,084
Speaker 1: the GTO Guide to Gift giving, our game theory, optimal

29
00:01:48,124 --> 00:01:51,364
Speaker 1: guide to giving presents, and also broader question can there

30
00:01:51,444 --> 00:01:55,044
Speaker 1: even be such a thing as gto gift giving? Or

31
00:01:55,084 --> 00:01:59,044
Speaker 1: does that go against the whole spirit of the enterprise. So,

32
00:01:59,364 --> 00:02:11,284
Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get to it. Hunter Biden, Nate,

33
00:02:11,324 --> 00:02:14,924
Speaker 1: do you want to give just the quick summary of

34
00:02:15,044 --> 00:02:18,564
Speaker 1: what happened? What breaking news alert I got this weekend?

35
00:02:19,284 --> 00:02:21,524
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Sunday, we're coming out of the end of

36
00:02:21,604 --> 00:02:24,204
Speaker 2: a holiday weekend, people watch a little bit of NFL,

37
00:02:25,124 --> 00:02:28,844
Speaker 2: and then President Biden says, I am pardoning my fail

38
00:02:28,964 --> 00:02:32,684
Speaker 2: son for a blanket eleven year period that goes from

39
00:02:32,724 --> 00:02:36,764
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen through through November twenty twenty four. There was

40
00:02:36,804 --> 00:02:40,764
Speaker 2: actually like a six hour window on which Hunter Biden

41
00:02:40,804 --> 00:02:43,284
Speaker 2: basically had the purge he could commit any crimes because

42
00:02:43,284 --> 00:02:47,484
Speaker 2: he was like pre pardoned for that day. But Biden,

43
00:02:47,564 --> 00:02:50,644
Speaker 2: despite repeated promises on the campaign trail not to pardon

44
00:02:50,764 --> 00:02:55,524
Speaker 2: his son, including promises made by the White House Press

45
00:02:55,524 --> 00:02:58,444
Speaker 2: secretary after the campaign was lost to Donald Trump. After

46
00:02:58,484 --> 00:03:06,124
Speaker 2: Harris's campaign was decided to issue the pardon anyway.

47
00:03:04,004 --> 00:03:06,804
Speaker 1: He did. Indeed, And as we've talked about on the

48
00:03:06,804 --> 00:03:09,244
Speaker 1: show before, because there's been a lot of breaking news

49
00:03:09,244 --> 00:03:12,604
Speaker 1: that happens in these kinds of periods. Whenever you want

50
00:03:12,644 --> 00:03:15,844
Speaker 1: to bury news, when do you do it? Exactly? You

51
00:03:15,924 --> 00:03:17,764
Speaker 1: do it on holidays, on.

52
00:03:17,764 --> 00:03:22,564
Speaker 2: Weekendriday, Sundays and people are traveling, right exactly. I mean,

53
00:03:22,564 --> 00:03:26,244
Speaker 2: often these pardons are made at the very end of

54
00:03:26,244 --> 00:03:27,764
Speaker 2: an administration, but this was not.

55
00:03:27,964 --> 00:03:32,404
Speaker 1: Yep. Now, this one was made during Thanksgiving, after President

56
00:03:32,564 --> 00:03:35,564
Speaker 1: Biden spent time with his family. I think that timing

57
00:03:35,604 --> 00:03:39,084
Speaker 1: is actually probably meaningful, especially given the kind of moblin

58
00:03:39,164 --> 00:03:44,004
Speaker 1: wording of his Yeah, yeah, I'm pardoning him as a father. Nate,

59
00:03:44,084 --> 00:03:45,964
Speaker 1: you said in the introduction that you thought that I

60
00:03:46,044 --> 00:03:49,044
Speaker 1: was going to really disagree with you. I thought when

61
00:03:49,124 --> 00:03:52,764
Speaker 1: I saw that breaking news headline, I was like, what

62
00:03:53,164 --> 00:03:58,084
Speaker 1: the actual fuck? For a few different reasons. Reason number one, Repeatedly,

63
00:03:58,284 --> 00:04:01,684
Speaker 1: he said he was not going to pardon Hunter and

64
00:04:01,804 --> 00:04:06,444
Speaker 1: members of his administration repeated that up until like November fourteenth, Right,

65
00:04:06,924 --> 00:04:08,764
Speaker 1: that's the last time that I heard it, but maybe

66
00:04:08,764 --> 00:04:11,724
Speaker 1: it was even later. But just like recently, right a

67
00:04:11,764 --> 00:04:14,164
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, they were saying absolutely no pardon. So

68
00:04:14,204 --> 00:04:16,204
Speaker 1: that was just a blatant lie if he knew that

69
00:04:16,244 --> 00:04:19,284
Speaker 1: this was going to happen. And second, like the way

70
00:04:19,324 --> 00:04:21,564
Speaker 1: he did it, Oh, as a father, dude, you are

71
00:04:21,604 --> 00:04:24,684
Speaker 1: the president of the United States of America, right, Like

72
00:04:24,804 --> 00:04:27,684
Speaker 1: I get that you're a dad and you have other obligations,

73
00:04:27,884 --> 00:04:30,404
Speaker 1: but you do not get to make decisions based on

74
00:04:30,684 --> 00:04:33,724
Speaker 1: those things. You have to make decisions as the most

75
00:04:33,724 --> 00:04:37,524
Speaker 1: powerful leader in the world, right as the president of

76
00:04:37,644 --> 00:04:40,324
Speaker 1: the United States. And you don't just get to do

77
00:04:40,444 --> 00:04:43,004
Speaker 1: things because you know your a dad or your family

78
00:04:43,044 --> 00:04:45,644
Speaker 1: member does this, And that's something that should you know,

79
00:04:45,684 --> 00:04:48,124
Speaker 1: apply to everyone. That's one of the reasons that we

80
00:04:48,204 --> 00:04:53,244
Speaker 1: have a democracy and not you know, a kleptoocracy or

81
00:04:53,324 --> 00:04:57,444
Speaker 1: a monarchy or you know, any for a dictatorship or

82
00:04:57,524 --> 00:05:00,364
Speaker 1: any form of government where a nepotism is kind of

83
00:05:00,364 --> 00:05:03,124
Speaker 1: a thing, right, and where you get to do whatever

84
00:05:03,164 --> 00:05:06,964
Speaker 1: you want to those close to you. Now people have said, oh, well,

85
00:05:07,004 --> 00:05:09,124
Speaker 1: you're holding democrats to a higher standard. No, I want

86
00:05:09,164 --> 00:05:11,404
Speaker 1: to hold everyone to this standard. And I think that

87
00:05:11,644 --> 00:05:15,404
Speaker 1: how what Biden did right now really shoots Democrats not

88
00:05:15,484 --> 00:05:17,524
Speaker 1: just in the foot, like in the face. This was

89
00:05:17,524 --> 00:05:20,324
Speaker 1: like such a fuck you to the Democratic Party because

90
00:05:20,364 --> 00:05:23,204
Speaker 1: now when Trump comes into office, he gets to point

91
00:05:23,204 --> 00:05:25,044
Speaker 1: to this and be like, you don't get to judge me.

92
00:05:25,124 --> 00:05:28,044
Speaker 1: This dude pardon his son. And that is such I mean,

93
00:05:28,364 --> 00:05:30,324
Speaker 1: you do not want to give him like he'll do

94
00:05:30,404 --> 00:05:32,244
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck he wants anyway, but like you don't

95
00:05:32,284 --> 00:05:34,884
Speaker 1: want to give him that ammunition, Like don't you want

96
00:05:34,924 --> 00:05:37,204
Speaker 1: to try to save the country instead of make it

97
00:05:37,244 --> 00:05:38,404
Speaker 1: more and more Trumpian?

98
00:05:39,124 --> 00:05:41,084
Speaker 2: Well, look, I mean there are a couple of things here.

99
00:05:41,404 --> 00:05:45,204
Speaker 2: One is that you know, Democrats are the party that

100
00:05:45,364 --> 00:05:49,684
Speaker 2: holds themselves to a higher standard, and so we are

101
00:05:49,724 --> 00:05:53,644
Speaker 2: the defendanive of democracy, right whereas Trump says, you're all

102
00:05:53,644 --> 00:05:56,324
Speaker 2: a bunch of hypocrites. And so if you agree that

103
00:05:56,324 --> 00:05:58,404
Speaker 2: they're a bunch of hypocrites, then built Republican because we're

104
00:05:58,404 --> 00:06:00,404
Speaker 2: going to have more fun and lower your taxes and

105
00:06:00,444 --> 00:06:03,604
Speaker 2: deport all these illegals and things like that. And so

106
00:06:03,724 --> 00:06:07,084
Speaker 2: there is an asymmetry number one, number two, like if

107
00:06:07,084 --> 00:06:09,684
Speaker 2: Biden had gone on TV and said, oh, I'm really

108
00:06:09,724 --> 00:06:12,964
Speaker 2: feel for my son, then that would be one thing,

109
00:06:14,604 --> 00:06:17,044
Speaker 2: and said it's a personal decision, a family decision. I

110
00:06:17,124 --> 00:06:20,604
Speaker 2: just can't help myself. I lost my first son, and

111
00:06:20,724 --> 00:06:24,124
Speaker 2: what can I do here? Right? But instead he issues

112
00:06:24,164 --> 00:06:27,124
Speaker 2: a very Trumpian statement where he says, there has been

113
00:06:27,164 --> 00:06:29,804
Speaker 2: an effort to break Hunter, who has been five and

114
00:06:29,804 --> 00:06:32,124
Speaker 2: a half years sober, in the face of unberlenting attacks

115
00:06:32,124 --> 00:06:35,324
Speaker 2: and selective prosecution in trying to break Hunter, they've tried

116
00:06:35,324 --> 00:06:37,564
Speaker 2: to break me, and there's no reason to believe it

117
00:06:37,604 --> 00:06:40,084
Speaker 2: will stop here. Enough is enough. So it's dressed up

118
00:06:40,084 --> 00:06:44,404
Speaker 2: in this very paranoid Trumpian language, and like, I'm using

119
00:06:44,404 --> 00:06:46,844
Speaker 2: the term paranoid deliberately because I don't think Joe Biden's

120
00:06:46,884 --> 00:06:49,964
Speaker 2: mental health is very good, you know, I don't think.

121
00:06:50,004 --> 00:06:52,124
Speaker 2: I mean. There was also a whole series of interviews

122
00:06:52,164 --> 00:06:56,524
Speaker 2: that the podcast pod Save America did with former Harris staffers,

123
00:06:56,564 --> 00:07:00,404
Speaker 2: and apparently when he chose to drop out, and then

124
00:07:00,604 --> 00:07:02,764
Speaker 2: forty minutes later whatever it was, or fifteen minutes later,

125
00:07:02,804 --> 00:07:05,084
Speaker 2: I forget shortlier after issued a tweet saying, oh, and

126
00:07:05,204 --> 00:07:08,884
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm nominating Harris. Apparently, no one had

127
00:07:08,884 --> 00:07:11,764
Speaker 2: been tipped that. Now I don't know if one hundred

128
00:07:11,764 --> 00:07:15,164
Speaker 2: percent believe that, but the staffer's official story is that, oh,

129
00:07:15,164 --> 00:07:17,044
Speaker 2: Biden just kind of like dropped this bombshell. We knew

130
00:07:17,044 --> 00:07:18,884
Speaker 2: obviously that there's pressure on him to drop out, but

131
00:07:18,924 --> 00:07:20,484
Speaker 2: then he just kind of dropped this bombshell that, oh,

132
00:07:20,524 --> 00:07:22,684
Speaker 2: by the way, it's going to have to be Harris.

133
00:07:22,684 --> 00:07:24,724
Speaker 2: And so this is not somebody who I'm sure is

134
00:07:24,804 --> 00:07:29,484
Speaker 2: operating at the very least not in a highly conscientious way,

135
00:07:29,564 --> 00:07:31,684
Speaker 2: and maybe not with the full deck. I'm not sure.

136
00:07:32,924 --> 00:07:35,444
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and it did. I mean, like I said

137
00:07:35,564 --> 00:07:38,164
Speaker 1: when when I mentioned that it seemed like a fuck

138
00:07:38,204 --> 00:07:41,284
Speaker 1: you two Democrats, it actually kind of did seem that

139
00:07:41,324 --> 00:07:44,484
Speaker 1: way that he was doing it, like for personal reasons,

140
00:07:44,484 --> 00:07:47,404
Speaker 1: but also because he's still mad, right, He's still mad

141
00:07:47,444 --> 00:07:50,244
Speaker 1: that he had had that he'd been cast aside. He's

142
00:07:50,284 --> 00:07:53,404
Speaker 1: still mad that he's a one term president. He's pissed,

143
00:07:53,884 --> 00:07:57,044
Speaker 1: and that is much more Trumpian than, you know, what

144
00:07:57,164 --> 00:08:00,844
Speaker 1: I would expect of Biden. And you know, if you

145
00:08:00,924 --> 00:08:03,804
Speaker 1: put it, I was actually thinking about this, you know,

146
00:08:03,804 --> 00:08:05,804
Speaker 1: because I'm working on a book about cheating and kind

147
00:08:05,844 --> 00:08:09,404
Speaker 1: of thinking in those terms. If you think about it,

148
00:08:09,724 --> 00:08:14,324
Speaker 1: like as a poker thing, right, and there's someone who's

149
00:08:14,564 --> 00:08:18,284
Speaker 1: like cheats, right or angle shoots like consistently, right, what

150
00:08:18,404 --> 00:08:21,524
Speaker 1: do you what do you do? Right? Do you start

151
00:08:21,644 --> 00:08:23,124
Speaker 1: being like, oh, well he's doing it, so I get

152
00:08:23,164 --> 00:08:25,324
Speaker 1: to cheat too, No, the game's going to evolve, right,

153
00:08:25,404 --> 00:08:27,484
Speaker 1: like there'll be no game left to play. Instead, you

154
00:08:27,524 --> 00:08:29,564
Speaker 1: call that person out, you make sure that they get

155
00:08:29,844 --> 00:08:32,964
Speaker 1: penalized for it. And you don't do that right, like

156
00:08:33,084 --> 00:08:36,444
Speaker 1: you you actually try to uphold the game. And that's

157
00:08:36,484 --> 00:08:39,924
Speaker 1: what democrats in this analogy. You know, Trump is kind

158
00:08:39,964 --> 00:08:43,524
Speaker 1: of the constant angle shooter, the constant person like pushing

159
00:08:43,604 --> 00:08:47,444
Speaker 1: the pushing the boundaries, pushing the rules. And what we

160
00:08:47,524 --> 00:08:50,444
Speaker 1: want to see is, you know, they're being pushed back.

161
00:08:50,764 --> 00:08:53,204
Speaker 1: And yeah, of course we want to see that he

162
00:08:53,244 --> 00:08:55,284
Speaker 1: doesn't get away with it. We want to see democracy

163
00:08:55,404 --> 00:08:58,884
Speaker 1: standing up to him. We want to see institutions being resilient.

164
00:08:59,204 --> 00:09:01,324
Speaker 1: We don't want people to get away with angle shooting.

165
00:09:01,484 --> 00:09:03,684
Speaker 1: But what you don't start doing is doing it yourself

166
00:09:03,764 --> 00:09:07,124
Speaker 1: and adopting those exact that exact same language. Like it's

167
00:09:07,244 --> 00:09:10,284
Speaker 1: just a really bad look. And I was incredibly INCREDI disappointed.

168
00:09:10,484 --> 00:09:13,364
Speaker 1: The thing I disagreed with you on was when you said,

169
00:09:14,084 --> 00:09:18,204
Speaker 1: you know, anyone who doesn't condemn this within forty eight hours.

170
00:09:17,324 --> 00:09:19,444
Speaker 2: Like a made him being a little bit of a

171
00:09:19,524 --> 00:09:23,604
Speaker 2: drama queen potentially, But like like a couple of Democrats did.

172
00:09:23,684 --> 00:09:28,524
Speaker 2: Jared Polus, the governor of Colorado did. Jared Golden, the

173
00:09:28,524 --> 00:09:32,324
Speaker 2: Democrat up in northern Maine who has really overperformed benchmarks

174
00:09:32,364 --> 00:09:36,164
Speaker 2: in his district, condemned it. But like, I don't know,

175
00:09:36,284 --> 00:09:38,284
Speaker 2: I mean, you have to have Biden's not very popular.

176
00:09:38,324 --> 00:09:42,124
Speaker 2: People just rejected his vice president after basically having rejected him.

177
00:09:42,164 --> 00:09:44,804
Speaker 2: They basically lost this race twice. As far as I'm concerned,

178
00:09:46,084 --> 00:09:48,924
Speaker 2: like when are you going to break with Biden? Right?

179
00:09:49,004 --> 00:09:52,964
Speaker 2: Like what's what's the cost of doing that? And saying

180
00:09:53,004 --> 00:09:54,924
Speaker 2: we are going to hold ourselves to like a higher

181
00:09:54,964 --> 00:09:58,884
Speaker 2: standard potentially, But like I look, I know, Maria, this

182
00:09:58,924 --> 00:10:02,404
Speaker 2: whole thing about like how you enable bad behavior when

183
00:10:02,444 --> 00:10:04,684
Speaker 2: you don't call it out and the fact that the

184
00:10:04,724 --> 00:10:06,964
Speaker 2: GOP has lots of problems. I mean, Trump has lost

185
00:10:06,964 --> 00:10:08,724
Speaker 2: the problems. I would never vote, never did, never would

186
00:10:08,804 --> 00:10:11,924
Speaker 2: vote for Donald try, right, But like you kind of

187
00:10:11,964 --> 00:10:14,604
Speaker 2: are reducing things to like the lowest common denominator and

188
00:10:14,684 --> 00:10:18,124
Speaker 2: like as a voter then look, I don't know how

189
00:10:18,164 --> 00:10:21,124
Speaker 2: to put it, but like I am done with as

190
00:10:21,124 --> 00:10:24,644
Speaker 2: a default voting for the Democratic Party, right, it doesn't

191
00:10:24,764 --> 00:10:27,244
Speaker 2: change my values as a voter. And you kind of know,

192
00:10:27,244 --> 00:10:30,204
Speaker 2: if you follow me, I'm kind of center left, maybe

193
00:10:30,204 --> 00:10:32,684
Speaker 2: center center left, with like a dose of libertarianism and

194
00:10:32,724 --> 00:10:35,764
Speaker 2: a dose of I don't know, contrarianism whatever else. But like,

195
00:10:35,844 --> 00:10:40,124
Speaker 2: I think this party has behaved badly, and I think

196
00:10:40,164 --> 00:10:42,204
Speaker 2: like it's managed a lot of crises badly. I thought

197
00:10:42,244 --> 00:10:45,924
Speaker 2: the way Democrats handled COVID and Republicans was was poor.

198
00:10:45,964 --> 00:10:49,604
Speaker 2: For example, you know, I don't know about its decision

199
00:10:49,724 --> 00:10:52,084
Speaker 2: to spend so much money in terms of stimulating the economy.

200
00:10:52,124 --> 00:10:53,684
Speaker 2: I mean, they did catch up with them in terms

201
00:10:53,724 --> 00:10:57,044
Speaker 2: of inflation and so forth. I think, you know, the

202
00:10:57,124 --> 00:10:59,564
Speaker 2: institutions of the left and the center left, I think

203
00:10:59,604 --> 00:11:02,684
Speaker 2: are failing to perform as well as they could, in

204
00:11:02,724 --> 00:11:06,604
Speaker 2: part because of hypocrisy and politicization. And like, I just

205
00:11:06,724 --> 00:11:08,564
Speaker 2: think the game theory is such that like you have

206
00:11:08,604 --> 00:11:13,004
Speaker 2: to be willing to like look at alternatives. I guess,

207
00:11:13,044 --> 00:11:15,164
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not optimistic that I'll get an alternative.

208
00:11:15,164 --> 00:11:17,204
Speaker 2: I like, on the GOP side, and then I'll probably

209
00:11:17,204 --> 00:11:21,084
Speaker 2: default and vote for the Democrat. I don't know. I mean,

210
00:11:21,084 --> 00:11:24,764
Speaker 2: certainly I look at independent candidacies more seriously, but like

211
00:11:25,084 --> 00:11:26,644
Speaker 2: you know, everyone's a point where they kind of get

212
00:11:27,164 --> 00:11:29,364
Speaker 2: fit up and says enough and like because again I

213
00:11:29,364 --> 00:11:32,124
Speaker 2: think kind of like on the micro argument, if you're

214
00:11:32,124 --> 00:11:35,564
Speaker 2: trying to calculate the expected value these choices, and you know,

215
00:11:35,564 --> 00:11:38,404
Speaker 2: at least in terms of expected utility for the world

216
00:11:38,444 --> 00:11:42,204
Speaker 2: we've talked about before, probably Democrats are better. I'm not

217
00:11:42,244 --> 00:11:45,204
Speaker 2: as sure about for me personally, but I can afford

218
00:11:45,284 --> 00:11:49,164
Speaker 2: to be unselfish about this. But like in a macro sense,

219
00:11:49,884 --> 00:11:51,924
Speaker 2: I don't know, the critique that the system is rotten

220
00:11:51,964 --> 00:11:53,764
Speaker 2: and we have to blow things up. I mean I'm

221
00:11:54,084 --> 00:11:55,964
Speaker 2: more and more sympathetic to that.

222
00:11:57,604 --> 00:12:01,404
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I totally agree that. And you know,

223
00:12:01,724 --> 00:12:03,804
Speaker 1: as I said, you need to call out bad behavior

224
00:12:03,884 --> 00:12:06,244
Speaker 1: and you can't shy away from calling it out within

225
00:12:06,844 --> 00:12:09,804
Speaker 1: your own party as well, Like you have to hold

226
00:12:09,844 --> 00:12:13,644
Speaker 1: people to standards. What I don't want to do is

227
00:12:13,764 --> 00:12:16,484
Speaker 1: equate the bad behavior of what's happening in the Democratic

228
00:12:16,524 --> 00:12:18,404
Speaker 1: Party with the Republican Party. And I don't think you

229
00:12:19,084 --> 00:12:21,804
Speaker 1: want to either. Rite like, but I think it's a

230
00:12:21,804 --> 00:12:25,804
Speaker 1: false equivalency, right, I think that what I think, I

231
00:12:25,844 --> 00:12:28,884
Speaker 1: think that what have done. I think that the party

232
00:12:28,924 --> 00:12:29,964
Speaker 1: of Trump is worse.

233
00:12:30,284 --> 00:12:32,204
Speaker 2: I think. I think when you think everything's a false equivalent, say,

234
00:12:32,244 --> 00:12:36,524
Speaker 2: then you then you get away with not all. I

235
00:12:36,524 --> 00:12:40,564
Speaker 2: mean Biden. I think Biden being president now is a scandal. Right.

236
00:12:41,044 --> 00:12:43,404
Speaker 2: We shouldn't we have these medical records, right, we don't

237
00:12:43,404 --> 00:12:45,764
Speaker 2: know if he's fit for office. Like, to me, that's

238
00:12:45,804 --> 00:12:48,724
Speaker 2: really bad. That's it. That's an existentially bad thing because

239
00:12:48,764 --> 00:12:51,724
Speaker 2: we live in a world of like existential risk. I

240
00:12:51,724 --> 00:12:54,284
Speaker 2: think that's very very bad, right. I think the pardon

241
00:12:54,444 --> 00:12:57,164
Speaker 2: is medium bad. But you know, on a scale with

242
00:12:57,204 --> 00:12:59,924
Speaker 2: the medium bad things that that Trump has done, and

243
00:12:59,964 --> 00:13:01,884
Speaker 2: if you kind of like zoom out the lens and

244
00:13:01,884 --> 00:13:04,684
Speaker 2: look toward institutional decisions, I mean things like school closures

245
00:13:04,724 --> 00:13:08,004
Speaker 2: under COVID one of the most consequential events of like

246
00:13:08,124 --> 00:13:10,444
Speaker 2: the past several decades, right, I mean, it's it's almost

247
00:13:10,484 --> 00:13:12,484
Speaker 2: like a if you look at the impact of learning loss.

248
00:13:12,804 --> 00:13:14,884
Speaker 2: There's some dispute about it, but it's really quite bad.

249
00:13:15,644 --> 00:13:20,244
Speaker 1: I don't know. I still, you know, I agree that

250
00:13:20,284 --> 00:13:22,284
Speaker 1: there have been mistakes and there have been bad things,

251
00:13:22,324 --> 00:13:25,164
Speaker 1: but I do not think that they're equivalently bad, and

252
00:13:25,244 --> 00:13:28,124
Speaker 1: I think that we have you know, sure, Biden being

253
00:13:28,164 --> 00:13:32,484
Speaker 1: president right now is not ideal. But Trump, what he

254
00:13:32,564 --> 00:13:34,524
Speaker 1: has done, what he has pledged to do, what he

255
00:13:34,564 --> 00:13:38,324
Speaker 1: has shown himself capable of doing, is like a constant

256
00:13:38,404 --> 00:13:42,644
Speaker 1: existential threat, right like his appointees to the judicial system,

257
00:13:43,124 --> 00:13:46,084
Speaker 1: his appointees to the cabinet, which we've talked about, and

258
00:13:46,124 --> 00:13:50,604
Speaker 1: continue it continuing, you know, continuing that trend, you know,

259
00:13:50,764 --> 00:13:54,204
Speaker 1: like the the cashpitels of the world. You know, all

260
00:13:54,244 --> 00:13:56,964
Speaker 1: all of these things are a big fuck you to democracy,

261
00:13:57,284 --> 00:13:59,644
Speaker 1: constantly over and over and over, saying he's going to

262
00:13:59,684 --> 00:14:03,484
Speaker 1: shut down media, you know, fake news, anything, he who

263
00:14:03,764 --> 00:14:06,644
Speaker 1: anyone who criticizes him, and a lot of his you know,

264
00:14:06,804 --> 00:14:13,604
Speaker 1: policies are aimed at basically trying to you know, trying

265
00:14:13,604 --> 00:14:16,404
Speaker 1: to weaken democracy as much as possible. And he has

266
00:14:16,444 --> 00:14:20,084
Speaker 1: also you know, doled out pardons too less than ideal people. Now,

267
00:14:20,204 --> 00:14:23,284
Speaker 1: like I said, this does not excuse the fact, Like

268
00:14:23,324 --> 00:14:25,244
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to excuse Biden, right, I think he

269
00:14:25,284 --> 00:14:26,644
Speaker 1: needs to be held to account. But I think this

270
00:14:26,764 --> 00:14:29,724
Speaker 1: was an awful decision executed in an awful way. As

271
00:14:29,764 --> 00:14:32,084
Speaker 1: you said, this pardon could have been much better, right

272
00:14:32,124 --> 00:14:34,364
Speaker 1: had he not constantly said I'm not going to pardon

273
00:14:34,364 --> 00:14:37,364
Speaker 1: a hunter, had he just not lied about it, and

274
00:14:37,484 --> 00:14:40,244
Speaker 1: had he like just owned it and been like, look like,

275
00:14:40,364 --> 00:14:42,804
Speaker 1: I understand that I shouldn't be doing this, but I'm

276
00:14:42,844 --> 00:14:45,804
Speaker 1: doing it anyway, Like I'm sorry, right, Like, that would

277
00:14:45,804 --> 00:14:48,884
Speaker 1: have been very different. The way he did it was Trumpian.

278
00:14:49,124 --> 00:14:51,924
Speaker 1: But the fact that we have this adjective Trumpian means

279
00:14:52,044 --> 00:14:56,484
Speaker 1: that right that there is I think that we can't

280
00:14:56,484 --> 00:15:00,604
Speaker 1: say like A equals B like these are two different things.

281
00:15:00,844 --> 00:15:04,644
Speaker 1: And the Republican Party has repeatedly shown itself unwilling to

282
00:15:04,684 --> 00:15:07,404
Speaker 1: stand up to Trump and basically trying to go into

283
00:15:07,404 --> 00:15:12,204
Speaker 1: his mold instead, and I think that that's very frightening. Again,

284
00:15:13,004 --> 00:15:15,604
Speaker 1: this does not mean we do not hold the Democratic

285
00:15:15,684 --> 00:15:18,444
Speaker 1: Party to account. As you said at the beginning of

286
00:15:18,484 --> 00:15:20,964
Speaker 1: this segment, they are held to a higher standard. They

287
00:15:21,004 --> 00:15:24,844
Speaker 1: should be because they are trying to preserve democracy. But

288
00:15:24,964 --> 00:15:26,804
Speaker 1: I do think we just want to be careful not

289
00:15:26,924 --> 00:15:29,684
Speaker 1: to paint a false equivalency here.

290
00:15:29,844 --> 00:15:31,724
Speaker 2: Are they trying to preserve democracy or is that like

291
00:15:31,924 --> 00:15:33,964
Speaker 2: a sloganeering. I mean, they tried to get.

292
00:15:34,004 --> 00:15:37,804
Speaker 1: What you said Okay, I'm giving you back your quote.

293
00:15:38,484 --> 00:15:42,644
Speaker 2: I think intellectuals generally care about democracy, although there's also

294
00:15:42,724 --> 00:15:46,004
Speaker 2: things like, you know, Democrats don't really talk very much

295
00:15:46,004 --> 00:15:50,964
Speaker 2: about free speech anymore, Republicans talk about it hypocritically. You know,

296
00:15:51,564 --> 00:15:53,244
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean some of the COVID stuff.

297
00:15:53,284 --> 00:15:56,804
Speaker 2: I mean, you had decisions that were made by public

298
00:15:56,844 --> 00:15:58,964
Speaker 2: health agencies that had a lot of power that were

299
00:15:58,964 --> 00:16:01,684
Speaker 2: not democratically elected, for example, And like, I don't know,

300
00:16:01,844 --> 00:16:05,404
Speaker 2: I think that branding doesn't work particularly well if you

301
00:16:05,444 --> 00:16:07,364
Speaker 2: look actually talked to swing voters and say who is

302
00:16:07,404 --> 00:16:11,044
Speaker 2: a party of democracy? Then look, look what Trump did

303
00:16:11,084 --> 00:16:14,524
Speaker 2: and trying to overturn the election in twenty twenty was

304
00:16:15,444 --> 00:16:18,484
Speaker 2: very bad, and the fact that it's kind of been

305
00:16:18,484 --> 00:16:23,004
Speaker 2: memory hold is really really bad. Right. But I just

306
00:16:23,044 --> 00:16:27,364
Speaker 2: think the equilibrium where anything you do is held to

307
00:16:27,404 --> 00:16:32,844
Speaker 2: this benchmark of like January sixth, and therefore anything you

308
00:16:32,884 --> 00:16:35,404
Speaker 2: do is false equivalents, Like, I just where's that end?

309
00:16:35,404 --> 00:16:37,684
Speaker 2: It ends in the Democratic Party behaving really badly and

310
00:16:37,724 --> 00:16:39,964
Speaker 2: also losing elections.

311
00:16:39,964 --> 00:16:42,124
Speaker 1: Frankly, well, well that's not what I'm trying to say.

312
00:16:42,204 --> 00:16:44,324
Speaker 1: I'm just saying there is you are trying to draw

313
00:16:44,444 --> 00:16:47,404
Speaker 1: false equivalence. That does not mean we don't have to

314
00:16:47,484 --> 00:16:51,244
Speaker 1: hold Democrats to a high standard. Right, there needs to

315
00:16:51,284 --> 00:16:54,724
Speaker 1: be changed. Both parties are rotting and there are there's

316
00:16:54,804 --> 00:16:57,764
Speaker 1: horrible stuff happening right, Like our two party system is

317
00:16:57,804 --> 00:17:01,084
Speaker 1: not working very well. And as you know, as I've

318
00:17:01,084 --> 00:17:03,324
Speaker 1: said on this podcast before, I'm not a fan of

319
00:17:03,924 --> 00:17:06,724
Speaker 1: the two party system. I never have been. I think

320
00:17:06,764 --> 00:17:10,404
Speaker 1: that that is not a good way going about things.

321
00:17:10,724 --> 00:17:15,124
Speaker 1: So I am all for you know, holding them to account, reforming,

322
00:17:15,204 --> 00:17:18,404
Speaker 1: like trying to really question what's going what's going wrong.

323
00:17:18,644 --> 00:17:21,564
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that we're not saying, oh, well,

324
00:17:21,604 --> 00:17:23,604
Speaker 1: Biden's now just as bad as Trump. He is not,

325
00:17:24,124 --> 00:17:26,324
Speaker 1: and like, do not say that, I know you know

326
00:17:26,404 --> 00:17:29,364
Speaker 1: that he is not. Don't don't do this for rhetorical purposes,

327
00:17:29,404 --> 00:17:31,724
Speaker 1: like this is too important for like we're not doing

328
00:17:31,764 --> 00:17:34,844
Speaker 1: a high school debate like this is this is actually

329
00:17:34,964 --> 00:17:38,724
Speaker 1: like this is actually too important for rhetorical flourishes. I

330
00:17:38,804 --> 00:17:41,804
Speaker 1: was a champion debate or I can rhetorically flourish too,

331
00:17:41,844 --> 00:17:43,004
Speaker 1: And I'm choosing not to.

332
00:17:43,844 --> 00:17:46,644
Speaker 2: Where's Biden ranked historically among the presidents? Let me bring

333
00:17:46,724 --> 00:17:47,564
Speaker 2: up some historically.

334
00:17:48,044 --> 00:17:50,764
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I don't know, not very high

335
00:17:51,044 --> 00:17:53,844
Speaker 1: now in my mind, because I think that he has

336
00:17:53,884 --> 00:17:57,004
Speaker 1: done made certain decisions. I think I would have ranked

337
00:17:57,044 --> 00:18:00,204
Speaker 1: him much higher a year ago, right, I think that

338
00:18:00,244 --> 00:18:01,004
Speaker 1: this last.

339
00:18:00,964 --> 00:18:03,244
Speaker 2: Yer, he's a lot done. In the first two years

340
00:18:03,324 --> 00:18:05,164
Speaker 2: Democrats had a relatively good mid term.

341
00:18:05,924 --> 00:18:08,564
Speaker 1: I would have ranked Biden a lot higher just a

342
00:18:08,684 --> 00:18:10,564
Speaker 1: year ago, because I think he got a lot done

343
00:18:10,604 --> 00:18:12,684
Speaker 1: and he you know, he was he had a good

344
00:18:12,724 --> 00:18:15,284
Speaker 1: presidency and then he made such shitty decisions in the

345
00:18:15,364 --> 00:18:20,644
Speaker 1: last year that it's really my my ranking has plummeted.

346
00:18:21,004 --> 00:18:22,804
Speaker 1: I can't give a ranking right now. I think it's

347
00:18:22,844 --> 00:18:27,844
Speaker 1: always very it's ill advised to try to rank people

348
00:18:27,884 --> 00:18:30,084
Speaker 1: in the moment, right You need you need a little

349
00:18:30,124 --> 00:18:32,444
Speaker 1: bit of time, like you need you need a little

350
00:18:32,484 --> 00:18:34,764
Speaker 1: bit of a of a window, a little bit of

351
00:18:34,804 --> 00:18:37,924
Speaker 1: perspective to just kind of see how things play out,

352
00:18:37,964 --> 00:18:39,924
Speaker 1: because you also can't see kind of the tail end

353
00:18:39,964 --> 00:18:43,044
Speaker 1: of some decisions. Right Like, maybe this Hunter Biden pardon

354
00:18:43,124 --> 00:18:45,564
Speaker 1: will end up like not really mattering, and maybe it

355
00:18:45,604 --> 00:18:47,964
Speaker 1: will end up mattering a lot. Maybe the fact that

356
00:18:48,364 --> 00:18:51,884
Speaker 1: he hasn't stepped down right now and hasn't made Kamayers

357
00:18:51,924 --> 00:18:54,964
Speaker 1: the next president, first female president. Maybe it won't matter.

358
00:18:55,004 --> 00:18:57,004
Speaker 1: Maybe it will end up mattering a lot, right, Like,

359
00:18:57,044 --> 00:18:59,124
Speaker 1: maybe something is going to happen in the next four

360
00:18:59,164 --> 00:19:02,804
Speaker 1: weeks that's going to make that really consequential. Maybe the

361
00:19:02,804 --> 00:19:04,924
Speaker 1: fact that the Democrats lost is going to end up

362
00:19:04,924 --> 00:19:07,204
Speaker 1: mattering a lot. Maybe it's going to end up mattering

363
00:19:07,244 --> 00:19:09,084
Speaker 1: a little bit less. So I think that before we

364
00:19:09,164 --> 00:19:11,124
Speaker 1: rank him, we just need to see how some of

365
00:19:11,164 --> 00:19:15,084
Speaker 1: these things shake out and how they know not be

366
00:19:15,204 --> 00:19:17,524
Speaker 1: in the emotional moment heat of the moment. But right now,

367
00:19:17,524 --> 00:19:20,044
Speaker 1: I'm really pissed at Biden, and I you know, I

368
00:19:20,044 --> 00:19:24,004
Speaker 1: think he's made some really really poor choices running for reelection.

369
00:19:24,524 --> 00:19:27,604
Speaker 1: What he's doing right now, the Biden, the Hunter, Biden pardon.

370
00:19:28,324 --> 00:19:31,124
Speaker 1: I'm not a very happy camper right now when it

371
00:19:31,124 --> 00:19:31,804
Speaker 1: comes to Biden.

372
00:19:32,284 --> 00:19:36,044
Speaker 2: By the way, this was not the expected outcome, right

373
00:19:36,044 --> 00:19:37,644
Speaker 2: If you looked at polymarket, I think there was like

374
00:19:37,644 --> 00:19:39,924
Speaker 2: a twenty five percent chance or something that Hunter was

375
00:19:39,924 --> 00:19:41,524
Speaker 2: going to be pardon, and so this was like not

376
00:19:41,724 --> 00:19:44,884
Speaker 2: like priced in. People kind of took the White House

377
00:19:44,924 --> 00:19:48,604
Speaker 2: at its word. I don't know, I don't envy the

378
00:19:48,644 --> 00:19:50,844
Speaker 2: job of the White House Press Secretary.

379
00:19:51,364 --> 00:19:53,564
Speaker 1: No neither do I. Neither do I This is this

380
00:19:53,604 --> 00:19:56,524
Speaker 1: is quite the mess that he's now embroiled everyone in right,

381
00:19:56,524 --> 00:19:59,044
Speaker 1: because he's made a lot of people look like liars

382
00:19:59,484 --> 00:20:01,604
Speaker 1: because a lot of people have said, no, we were

383
00:20:01,844 --> 00:20:06,724
Speaker 1: this pardon is not happening. So on that lovely note,

384
00:20:06,804 --> 00:20:10,164
Speaker 1: let's potentially take a let's take a break and uh

385
00:20:10,364 --> 00:20:15,404
Speaker 1: and switch over to a much lighter topic of gift

386
00:20:15,564 --> 00:20:39,364
Speaker 1: giving during the holidays. I'm so curious about this. I

387
00:20:39,484 --> 00:20:43,164
Speaker 1: just I'm so interested in what your general approach to

388
00:20:43,524 --> 00:20:46,204
Speaker 1: gift giving is. This is something I don't actually know

389
00:20:46,244 --> 00:20:48,244
Speaker 1: about you. I've known you for a long time, but

390
00:20:48,484 --> 00:20:52,404
Speaker 1: it's not like we constantly engage in gift exchanges. So

391
00:20:53,284 --> 00:20:54,364
Speaker 1: how do you think about it?

392
00:20:55,124 --> 00:21:02,284
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm a very good gift giver, Maria.

393
00:21:00,364 --> 00:21:03,804
Speaker 1: Well, you your partner is. So for my birthday, your

394
00:21:03,804 --> 00:21:06,524
Speaker 1: partner has given me incredibly thoughtful gifts from the two

395
00:21:06,524 --> 00:21:08,484
Speaker 1: of you. So so thank you to.

396
00:21:08,524 --> 00:21:11,804
Speaker 2: Him for Yeah, be in a long term relationship with

397
00:21:11,844 --> 00:21:13,844
Speaker 2: someone who is good at giving gifts. Although with my

398
00:21:15,084 --> 00:21:17,844
Speaker 2: can I say this, I'm kind of trying to predictive

399
00:21:17,844 --> 00:21:21,444
Speaker 2: they'll be like relationship stress out of this. With with

400
00:21:21,484 --> 00:21:24,964
Speaker 2: my partner, we tend not to give each other a

401
00:21:24,964 --> 00:21:26,644
Speaker 2: lot of gifts. I'm not sure how we got into

402
00:21:26,644 --> 00:21:30,564
Speaker 2: that equilibrium. I guess the gift of being with each

403
00:21:30,604 --> 00:21:34,364
Speaker 2: other every day is a gift enough, and so we

404
00:21:34,404 --> 00:21:35,644
Speaker 2: just kind of got out of the habit of like

405
00:21:36,524 --> 00:21:39,284
Speaker 2: giving gifts. And yeah, I don't know, how about you

406
00:21:39,284 --> 00:21:40,924
Speaker 2: and how about you and your husband.

407
00:21:42,044 --> 00:21:46,124
Speaker 1: We do give gifts to each other, but we you know,

408
00:21:46,164 --> 00:21:49,484
Speaker 1: we're not we're not big on like we don't celebrate

409
00:21:49,564 --> 00:21:53,364
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day and kind of bullshit like that, Like, but

410
00:21:53,444 --> 00:21:56,964
Speaker 1: we will give gifts to each other for you know,

411
00:21:57,004 --> 00:21:59,484
Speaker 1: the holidays and for our birthdays. Those are basically the

412
00:21:59,764 --> 00:22:03,124
Speaker 1: two times when we give gifts. And otherwise, you know,

413
00:22:03,164 --> 00:22:06,244
Speaker 1: we like to do experiential things together, so like instead

414
00:22:06,284 --> 00:22:09,244
Speaker 1: of like for an anniversary, instead of giving gifts, like

415
00:22:09,484 --> 00:22:11,444
Speaker 1: will either like we'll do a trip, or we'll do

416
00:22:11,724 --> 00:22:14,684
Speaker 1: a nice dinner or open a really nice bottle of wine,

417
00:22:15,284 --> 00:22:18,964
Speaker 1: something that we can enjoy together. And sometimes we've agreed

418
00:22:18,964 --> 00:22:21,004
Speaker 1: in the past not to give each other gifts and

419
00:22:21,084 --> 00:22:23,644
Speaker 1: instead of a gift, we'll do X or Y, So

420
00:22:23,684 --> 00:22:25,924
Speaker 1: we talk about that in advance. So I think that

421
00:22:25,924 --> 00:22:29,604
Speaker 1: that's really nice and I actually think that experiences often

422
00:22:29,684 --> 00:22:30,844
Speaker 1: make the best gifts.

423
00:22:31,564 --> 00:22:33,524
Speaker 2: The other philosophical point I have is that I think

424
00:22:33,524 --> 00:22:37,524
Speaker 2: if you're not giving an experience or something and one

425
00:22:37,524 --> 00:22:41,844
Speaker 2: of their important qualification, you're not dealing with the person

426
00:22:41,884 --> 00:22:45,564
Speaker 2: where they could really use like the extra income. Right.

427
00:22:45,604 --> 00:22:47,204
Speaker 2: I mean, you should give a gift that's like a

428
00:22:47,284 --> 00:22:50,644
Speaker 2: little bit something they wouldn't get for themselves. Right, it's

429
00:22:50,684 --> 00:22:57,724
Speaker 2: a little bit in the offbeat or like slightly impractical zone. Right.

430
00:22:59,764 --> 00:23:01,324
Speaker 2: You know, a couple of years ago, we bought my

431
00:23:01,404 --> 00:23:04,244
Speaker 2: dad like a really nice new watch. It was like

432
00:23:04,244 --> 00:23:05,804
Speaker 2: a little bit more on a watch that and these

433
00:23:05,844 --> 00:23:08,044
Speaker 2: guy who's always worn to watch, right then he would

434
00:23:08,084 --> 00:23:11,804
Speaker 2: spend on himself, right. Or even things like we bought

435
00:23:11,804 --> 00:23:15,204
Speaker 2: my mom like a iPhone a couple of years ago.

436
00:23:15,324 --> 00:23:19,004
Speaker 2: She's getting older and like you know, actually has lots

437
00:23:19,004 --> 00:23:21,124
Speaker 2: of use for an iPhone if something bad happens or

438
00:23:21,124 --> 00:23:24,644
Speaker 2: whatever else is cell phone, but she probably was not

439
00:23:24,684 --> 00:23:26,244
Speaker 2: going to buy it for herself because it was too

440
00:23:26,284 --> 00:23:27,964
Speaker 2: expensive and too much riham or roll to go to

441
00:23:28,004 --> 00:23:30,324
Speaker 2: this tour and whatever else, and so things like that.

442
00:23:30,364 --> 00:23:33,404
Speaker 2: I mean it's a little paternalistic, I guess ironically giving no.

443
00:23:34,084 --> 00:23:38,444
Speaker 1: You know, I actually I think that the well let

444
00:23:38,484 --> 00:23:40,844
Speaker 1: me before I say that, like, what's one of the

445
00:23:40,844 --> 00:23:43,724
Speaker 1: most memorable, Like, what are the memorable memorable gifts that

446
00:23:43,764 --> 00:23:45,564
Speaker 1: you've gotten other than experiences?

447
00:23:46,644 --> 00:23:49,804
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I have it. I mean my when

448
00:23:49,844 --> 00:23:53,804
Speaker 2: I was in Seattle for a book tour event, right,

449
00:23:53,924 --> 00:23:56,444
Speaker 2: my like cousin gave me like a customized deck of

450
00:23:56,484 --> 00:23:59,244
Speaker 2: like playing cards with family photos. Like that was a

451
00:23:59,284 --> 00:24:00,004
Speaker 2: really thoughtful gift.

452
00:24:00,004 --> 00:24:04,044
Speaker 1: It's amazing, Right, Yeah, that's amazing, and that I think

453
00:24:04,244 --> 00:24:08,964
Speaker 1: shows something incredibly important. Right That gift shows thought, right,

454
00:24:09,044 --> 00:24:12,884
Speaker 1: shows forethought, shows an interest and an understanding of what

455
00:24:12,924 --> 00:24:15,724
Speaker 1: you do, of what you like, and doesn't cost a

456
00:24:15,724 --> 00:24:19,004
Speaker 1: lot of money, right, Like don't give people cash, right, Like,

457
00:24:19,164 --> 00:24:20,884
Speaker 1: if you think about this is why I like said

458
00:24:20,924 --> 00:24:23,484
Speaker 1: the premise of gto Like you might think that, like

459
00:24:24,244 --> 00:24:26,604
Speaker 1: optimally like just give people money and they can get

460
00:24:26,604 --> 00:24:29,084
Speaker 1: exactly what they want. But I think that that actually

461
00:24:29,284 --> 00:24:32,324
Speaker 1: goes against the spirit of like what what gift giving

462
00:24:32,404 --> 00:24:35,084
Speaker 1: is all about, which is about paying attention to people,

463
00:24:35,244 --> 00:24:37,764
Speaker 1: knowing people, kind of being thoughtful and as you said,

464
00:24:37,804 --> 00:24:40,364
Speaker 1: something they wouldn't get for themselves, like something they don't

465
00:24:40,404 --> 00:24:43,724
Speaker 1: know they want. I'm also very against gift lists, where

466
00:24:43,764 --> 00:24:46,524
Speaker 1: like people you know, you ask people to tell you

467
00:24:46,564 --> 00:24:50,604
Speaker 1: what they want, because like, you know, then then what's

468
00:24:50,604 --> 00:24:53,524
Speaker 1: the point, right, Like I'd rather just not even exchange gifts.

469
00:24:53,804 --> 00:24:57,324
Speaker 2: Might need to tell you I'm because I mean, no,

470
00:24:57,644 --> 00:24:59,604
Speaker 2: you basically give people money, but with restrictions on how

471
00:24:59,604 --> 00:25:01,324
Speaker 2: you can use it. You know, I guess there's some

472
00:25:01,364 --> 00:25:04,164
Speaker 2: thoughtfulness put in, maybe if it's like some promotion or something,

473
00:25:04,204 --> 00:25:05,604
Speaker 2: but for sure, Yeah.

474
00:25:05,964 --> 00:25:08,644
Speaker 1: The one exception that I will give gift certificates to

475
00:25:08,644 --> 00:25:11,564
Speaker 1: people too, is like I will give a get certificate

476
00:25:11,644 --> 00:25:13,924
Speaker 1: to a massage at a spot where I know that

477
00:25:14,004 --> 00:25:16,924
Speaker 1: they will never treat themselves to it, And I'm like, Okay,

478
00:25:17,004 --> 00:25:19,244
Speaker 1: I want you to go and get a fucking two

479
00:25:19,284 --> 00:25:22,884
Speaker 1: hour hotstone massage at this place that is amazing. You

480
00:25:22,924 --> 00:25:25,284
Speaker 1: would never pay this amount of money like you deserve it,

481
00:25:25,404 --> 00:25:27,524
Speaker 1: like you need a rest here you go. But that's

482
00:25:27,564 --> 00:25:29,764
Speaker 1: also I think goes along with what you were saying.

483
00:25:29,804 --> 00:25:32,924
Speaker 1: It's not something that they would give for themselves. And

484
00:25:32,964 --> 00:25:37,684
Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of psychological study of gift giving

485
00:25:38,004 --> 00:25:40,324
Speaker 1: and of how it works, like how it activates different

486
00:25:40,324 --> 00:25:43,924
Speaker 1: parts of the brain, and it turns out that like

487
00:25:44,124 --> 00:25:48,364
Speaker 1: we are, actually we get a lot more satisfaction out

488
00:25:48,364 --> 00:25:51,884
Speaker 1: of kind of these acts of generosity than Russet prosody.

489
00:25:51,924 --> 00:25:55,564
Speaker 1: It's not like a homoeconomicus type of thing, right. It

490
00:25:55,724 --> 00:26:00,004
Speaker 1: actually like gives us more pleasure to give a gift

491
00:26:00,044 --> 00:26:03,484
Speaker 1: that's someone you know that might not have the material

492
00:26:03,564 --> 00:26:06,244
Speaker 1: value but that actually has kind of that attention spent

493
00:26:06,284 --> 00:26:08,764
Speaker 1: to it. And we can even be generous too, straight

494
00:26:08,844 --> 00:26:11,044
Speaker 1: Like we get a kick out of being generous.

495
00:26:11,724 --> 00:26:13,404
Speaker 2: This is one thing that women are much better about

496
00:26:13,444 --> 00:26:17,804
Speaker 2: than men, right, Like they send follow ups after you

497
00:26:17,964 --> 00:26:19,204
Speaker 2: hang out. Right, I had a little hang out with

498
00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:21,484
Speaker 2: my mail friend. You say, you send like a like

499
00:26:21,524 --> 00:26:23,244
Speaker 2: a no saying, hey, a good time tonight. I'm like, wow,

500
00:26:23,244 --> 00:26:27,324
Speaker 2: that's rare for that's rare for heterosexual men to do that.

501
00:26:27,364 --> 00:26:27,964
Speaker 2: I'm prompted.

502
00:26:28,724 --> 00:26:30,364
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna ask, but you mentioned it.

503
00:26:30,524 --> 00:26:32,124
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's nice.

504
00:26:32,244 --> 00:26:35,404
Speaker 1: But no, those gestures actually they do matter, and I

505
00:26:35,444 --> 00:26:38,404
Speaker 1: think that that does underpin a lot of kind of

506
00:26:38,444 --> 00:26:42,524
Speaker 1: the psychological satisfaction and that sort of gift giving interaction.

507
00:26:43,684 --> 00:26:46,444
Speaker 1: You've got your classic story, like I think, oh, Henry

508
00:26:46,444 --> 00:26:48,084
Speaker 1: got the spirit of the thing, you know, the gift

509
00:26:48,124 --> 00:26:51,284
Speaker 1: of the of the magic, his most famous story. You've

510
00:26:51,284 --> 00:26:55,644
Speaker 1: read it. I'm assuming m oh, sorry, not trying to

511
00:26:55,644 --> 00:26:56,564
Speaker 1: put you on the spot.

512
00:26:57,084 --> 00:26:59,764
Speaker 2: When you assume, you make an ass of you and me.

513
00:27:00,924 --> 00:27:03,004
Speaker 1: So I made an ass of you and me. It's

514
00:27:03,044 --> 00:27:05,524
Speaker 1: a very famous story, very short. I think it's three

515
00:27:05,524 --> 00:27:09,084
Speaker 1: pages long, something like that, three or four pages about

516
00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:13,164
Speaker 1: young couple don't have a lot of money. He has

517
00:27:13,444 --> 00:27:16,444
Speaker 1: a beautiful gold watch. It's his only good, nice possession.

518
00:27:17,124 --> 00:27:22,244
Speaker 1: She has just this beautiful, luxurious hair, and so they

519
00:27:22,284 --> 00:27:25,364
Speaker 1: want to give each other a gift, and she sells

520
00:27:25,404 --> 00:27:28,804
Speaker 1: her hair to buy a chain for his watch, and

521
00:27:28,844 --> 00:27:33,364
Speaker 1: he sells his watch to buy you know, these combs

522
00:27:33,404 --> 00:27:36,804
Speaker 1: for her hair that she had admired that were beautiful,

523
00:27:37,484 --> 00:27:40,044
Speaker 1: and so it's, you know, the gift of the magi.

524
00:27:40,204 --> 00:27:42,724
Speaker 1: They can't actually neither one of them will ever be

525
00:27:42,804 --> 00:27:44,644
Speaker 1: able to use their gifts. Well, she will because hair

526
00:27:44,644 --> 00:27:49,164
Speaker 1: grows back. But it's kind of this beautiful story about

527
00:27:49,244 --> 00:27:52,004
Speaker 1: kind of the intent of gift giving. All right, So

528
00:27:52,164 --> 00:27:56,244
Speaker 1: let's just close with a gift giving lightning round. What's

529
00:27:56,244 --> 00:27:58,964
Speaker 1: the best gift you've ever received from another poker player?

530
00:27:59,004 --> 00:28:00,364
Speaker 2: You know, the one that comes to mind. I was

531
00:28:00,404 --> 00:28:04,804
Speaker 2: doing like a charitable event poker tournament, right, and like

532
00:28:05,324 --> 00:28:08,444
Speaker 2: I busted out and then Annie Duke had made the

533
00:28:08,444 --> 00:28:10,924
Speaker 2: final table and she had to leave, so she's like, Nate,

534
00:28:11,084 --> 00:28:12,604
Speaker 2: you got my seat now. So it was kind of

535
00:28:12,924 --> 00:28:14,364
Speaker 2: it was kind of in the range between a gift,

536
00:28:14,364 --> 00:28:16,804
Speaker 2: but it was a very nice gesture to do both

537
00:28:16,844 --> 00:28:20,324
Speaker 2: because it showed she had some respect that I'd hopefully

538
00:28:20,364 --> 00:28:22,684
Speaker 2: play my hand with honor. And you know, I tried

539
00:28:22,684 --> 00:28:26,284
Speaker 2: to play aggressively. I tried to like play well, you know,

540
00:28:26,364 --> 00:28:30,404
Speaker 2: had a huge I had a huge chip lead and

541
00:28:29,844 --> 00:28:33,084
Speaker 2: then and then just ran really bad on all ends.

542
00:28:33,924 --> 00:28:36,484
Speaker 2: So I finished third, and there was some threshold where

543
00:28:36,484 --> 00:28:39,764
Speaker 2: you got some actually cool prize first and second, so

544
00:28:39,884 --> 00:28:42,204
Speaker 2: I should have been looking at the bubble or poker

545
00:28:42,244 --> 00:28:43,804
Speaker 2: player fans will know, right, basically, there was like a

546
00:28:44,484 --> 00:28:46,564
Speaker 2: bubble for second place where you get like a cool

547
00:28:46,684 --> 00:28:49,324
Speaker 2: award a gift. In the top two positions are like

548
00:28:49,364 --> 00:28:51,324
Speaker 2: the same thing. I forget what it was, a plaque,

549
00:28:51,404 --> 00:28:52,924
Speaker 2: r I know, but something that was worth playing for.

550
00:28:53,004 --> 00:28:55,644
Speaker 2: And then third place you get like a gift bag,

551
00:28:55,684 --> 00:28:57,844
Speaker 2: and like I should have played for second place. Basically

552
00:28:58,644 --> 00:28:59,324
Speaker 2: that's a good gift.

553
00:28:59,484 --> 00:29:01,364
Speaker 1: All the best gifts I've gotten from poker players have

554
00:29:01,404 --> 00:29:05,204
Speaker 1: been experiences right where someone has treated me to a

555
00:29:05,244 --> 00:29:07,884
Speaker 1: really memorable meal that I would never have otherwise been

556
00:29:07,924 --> 00:29:11,084
Speaker 1: able to go to. Those are the things that I

557
00:29:11,164 --> 00:29:13,324
Speaker 1: really you know, cherish and remember.

558
00:29:14,084 --> 00:29:16,724
Speaker 2: Best gift for the raveriance. So if you've read my book,

559
00:29:16,764 --> 00:29:18,684
Speaker 2: you know that the two typologies the village, which is

560
00:29:18,724 --> 00:29:21,804
Speaker 2: like the East Coast establishment, and the river which is

561
00:29:21,844 --> 00:29:24,284
Speaker 2: poker and gambling and VC and all these things. So

562
00:29:25,564 --> 00:29:27,364
Speaker 2: the best gift for ravarian This is where I wish

563
00:29:27,404 --> 00:29:30,524
Speaker 2: we had, like a sponsor from like a poker training

564
00:29:30,564 --> 00:29:34,124
Speaker 2: company'd be like get twenty percent off on gto express

565
00:29:34,204 --> 00:29:37,804
Speaker 2: dot com with Pasco Maria and Nate twenty twenty four.

566
00:29:38,924 --> 00:29:41,164
Speaker 1: That was a great pivot Nate to a company that

567
00:29:41,204 --> 00:29:45,924
Speaker 1: does not actually exist. Well done. No free promotion if

568
00:29:45,964 --> 00:29:48,524
Speaker 1: you want if you want free, if you want free promotion,

569
00:29:48,604 --> 00:29:49,484
Speaker 1: this is not the place.

570
00:29:49,844 --> 00:29:52,564
Speaker 2: Hey, I'll give you a free sports bin on Fanduels Shure,

571
00:29:52,644 --> 00:29:54,564
Speaker 2: you probably don't want to. I'm not sure you want

572
00:29:54,564 --> 00:29:58,884
Speaker 2: to do something like that and potentially hook somebody or whatever.

573
00:29:59,444 --> 00:30:02,924
Speaker 2: But no, yeah, I do think like a poker train

574
00:30:03,084 --> 00:30:04,924
Speaker 2: Like I think most of the best poker training materials

575
00:30:04,964 --> 00:30:07,764
Speaker 2: now are are online. We're not going to go about

576
00:30:08,084 --> 00:30:11,244
Speaker 2: recommending particular sites, but like, yeah, I mean giving someone

577
00:30:11,284 --> 00:30:12,964
Speaker 2: because those training sites aren't cheap either, So if you

578
00:30:13,004 --> 00:30:16,644
Speaker 2: can afford it, maybe something people wouldn't think about buying themselves,

579
00:30:16,764 --> 00:30:18,484
Speaker 2: like a poker training course could be a good gift

580
00:30:18,564 --> 00:30:18,924
Speaker 2: for sure.

581
00:30:19,804 --> 00:30:24,164
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree with that. How about best gift

582
00:30:24,244 --> 00:30:27,564
Speaker 1: for the villager? So you know, listeners of our show

583
00:30:27,644 --> 00:30:30,284
Speaker 1: probably know at this point what the villages, But the

584
00:30:30,364 --> 00:30:34,764
Speaker 1: villages you are your answer to the river, the kind

585
00:30:34,764 --> 00:30:41,044
Speaker 1: of the establishment, right, the kind of the collegiate types

586
00:30:41,284 --> 00:30:41,964
Speaker 1: of the world.

587
00:30:42,884 --> 00:30:44,684
Speaker 2: Maybe like a gift certificate to sub stack. I don't

588
00:30:44,724 --> 00:30:48,124
Speaker 2: think those things exist yet, but like, go read outside

589
00:30:48,164 --> 00:30:52,764
Speaker 2: the village, read some heterodox yeah yeah, yeah, or maybe

590
00:30:52,844 --> 00:30:55,684
Speaker 2: or maybe they're the one that needs, like to learn

591
00:30:55,724 --> 00:30:57,244
Speaker 2: how to take risks. Maybe you just give them, Okay,

592
00:30:58,324 --> 00:31:00,244
Speaker 2: you get I guess you can't like comp the casino

593
00:31:00,804 --> 00:31:02,364
Speaker 2: or maybe you can't, right, Can you like give someone

594
00:31:02,404 --> 00:31:05,564
Speaker 2: here's one hundred dollars to spend it Caesars or something?

595
00:31:05,564 --> 00:31:09,604
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe yeah, well, but if you're doing that,

596
00:31:09,684 --> 00:31:11,644
Speaker 1: and I think the best gift for a ribeian would

597
00:31:11,684 --> 00:31:14,284
Speaker 1: be not a poker course, but something that would that

598
00:31:14,324 --> 00:31:17,244
Speaker 1: would actually like even them out. I would give them

599
00:31:17,284 --> 00:31:20,404
Speaker 1: the like the Paris Review Interviews, which is one of

600
00:31:20,404 --> 00:31:22,924
Speaker 1: my favorite gifts for people. It's a four volume set

601
00:31:23,084 --> 00:31:26,164
Speaker 1: of interviews with some of the best writers and thinkers

602
00:31:26,244 --> 00:31:29,284
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. I think they learned a lot

603
00:31:29,324 --> 00:31:32,764
Speaker 1: from that, so I would go in that direction. Let's

604
00:31:32,804 --> 00:31:33,604
Speaker 1: even everyone out.

605
00:31:34,924 --> 00:31:36,724
Speaker 2: How much time should you spend picking out a gift

606
00:31:36,764 --> 00:31:38,124
Speaker 2: before you buy something and move on?

607
00:31:40,204 --> 00:31:44,044
Speaker 1: I think it really depends, because you know, for the

608
00:31:44,084 --> 00:31:46,524
Speaker 1: people who are kind of the closest to me, like I,

609
00:31:47,364 --> 00:31:50,444
Speaker 1: it's one of these things where I'm constantly thinking about gifts,

610
00:31:50,484 --> 00:31:53,004
Speaker 1: not on any conscious level, but like you pay attention

611
00:31:53,124 --> 00:31:55,364
Speaker 1: to them, right, You pay attention to what they like,

612
00:31:55,484 --> 00:31:58,124
Speaker 1: what they don't like, and so you kind of have ideas.

613
00:31:58,164 --> 00:31:59,804
Speaker 1: It's not like all of a sudden I sit down

614
00:31:59,844 --> 00:32:02,484
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, this is what I want to get.

615
00:32:02,684 --> 00:32:05,564
Speaker 1: But some people are really really difficult to shop for.

616
00:32:06,004 --> 00:32:09,244
Speaker 1: Like my dad is. He'll appreciate everything, like he's always,

617
00:32:09,644 --> 00:32:12,084
Speaker 1: you know, really grateful, but like he's a hard person

618
00:32:12,164 --> 00:32:14,644
Speaker 1: to think of gifts for because he's someone who is

619
00:32:14,684 --> 00:32:18,524
Speaker 1: not at all materialistic, and like, you know, he he

620
00:32:18,604 --> 00:32:22,964
Speaker 1: appreciates things, but like he doesn't want anything, and he

621
00:32:23,004 --> 00:32:26,644
Speaker 1: can be you know, it can be hard because I

622
00:32:26,684 --> 00:32:29,164
Speaker 1: think everyone loves him very very much and wants to

623
00:32:29,164 --> 00:32:32,044
Speaker 1: give him gifts that he'll really appreciate, and so you

624
00:32:32,084 --> 00:32:35,164
Speaker 1: have to just kind of think, like, okay, what is something?

625
00:32:35,204 --> 00:32:37,684
Speaker 1: So Like recently it was his seventieth birthday and we

626
00:32:37,844 --> 00:32:41,484
Speaker 1: ended up kind of all of the kids got him

627
00:32:43,284 --> 00:32:46,044
Speaker 1: a number of bottles of vintage port because he's a

628
00:32:46,084 --> 00:32:50,164
Speaker 1: big port drinker from all the decades, and that was,

629
00:32:50,204 --> 00:32:53,204
Speaker 1: you know, that was something that we had to we

630
00:32:53,284 --> 00:32:56,164
Speaker 1: had to think for a while before we came up with.

631
00:32:56,364 --> 00:33:00,164
Speaker 1: But you know, it's people who are not materialistic can

632
00:33:00,244 --> 00:33:02,684
Speaker 1: be can be hard to shop for. All Right, Nate,

633
00:33:02,724 --> 00:33:04,964
Speaker 1: I have another question for you. Who is the most

634
00:33:05,004 --> 00:33:08,284
Speaker 1: important non obvious person to get a gift for, Like

635
00:33:08,444 --> 00:33:13,604
Speaker 1: you're building super office gossip, the least scrupulous dealer at

636
00:33:13,644 --> 00:33:16,484
Speaker 1: the wind Like, who's that? Who's someone who you think

637
00:33:16,604 --> 00:33:18,964
Speaker 1: is not someone who you'd immediately think about.

638
00:33:19,164 --> 00:33:20,804
Speaker 2: I was hoping you'd have a better I mean, we

639
00:33:21,044 --> 00:33:25,324
Speaker 2: give we you know, we treat our door guy pretty

640
00:33:25,324 --> 00:33:27,964
Speaker 2: well usually apart from that, Like, I don't know, maybe

641
00:33:28,004 --> 00:33:31,204
Speaker 2: I'm inconsiderate and don't like tim No.

642
00:33:31,244 --> 00:33:33,804
Speaker 1: I think that I think that we we definitely. We

643
00:33:33,964 --> 00:33:37,684
Speaker 1: leave tips for everyone who works at the building, and

644
00:33:37,844 --> 00:33:41,844
Speaker 1: we actually give a gift. So there's a guy who's

645
00:33:41,884 --> 00:33:44,804
Speaker 1: in charge of like the receiving area that's like where

646
00:33:44,804 --> 00:33:47,684
Speaker 1: all the packages go. And he's a very very important

647
00:33:47,724 --> 00:33:51,044
Speaker 1: person because he could like bar entry for people, or

648
00:33:51,124 --> 00:33:53,644
Speaker 1: he can like facilitate things for you a little bit,

649
00:33:53,844 --> 00:33:56,684
Speaker 1: like you know, letting you use the service elevator, like

650
00:33:56,764 --> 00:34:00,084
Speaker 1: slightly later than he's supposed to or slightly earlier, and like,

651
00:34:00,444 --> 00:34:03,204
Speaker 1: you know, facilitate all of that process because like you know,

652
00:34:03,284 --> 00:34:06,644
Speaker 1: everyone all of the contractors, like all deliveries, everything has

653
00:34:06,684 --> 00:34:09,124
Speaker 1: to go through that service entry. Not food deliveries but

654
00:34:09,204 --> 00:34:13,884
Speaker 1: like appliance deliveries or like big deliveries. And you know,

655
00:34:14,164 --> 00:34:18,924
Speaker 1: so we know that he loves nuts because he had

656
00:34:19,004 --> 00:34:21,284
Speaker 1: mentioned it at some point, so we give him like

657
00:34:21,324 --> 00:34:25,004
Speaker 1: one of those huge baskets of like fruit and nut assortments,

658
00:34:25,004 --> 00:34:27,444
Speaker 1: and he really appreciates that, And I think that he

659
00:34:27,884 --> 00:34:30,724
Speaker 1: likes us more because of that. So I think that that's,

660
00:34:31,164 --> 00:34:34,444
Speaker 1: you know, we we like to give him something that's

661
00:34:34,484 --> 00:34:37,324
Speaker 1: not money to make him know that we that we

662
00:34:37,364 --> 00:34:39,684
Speaker 1: appreciate him. So I think that, you know, those those

663
00:34:39,724 --> 00:34:43,044
Speaker 1: types of people are really important and you want to

664
00:34:43,084 --> 00:34:48,084
Speaker 1: give them special acknowledgment. After a quick break, we're going

665
00:34:48,164 --> 00:34:48,684
Speaker 1: to be back.

666
00:35:05,084 --> 00:35:07,484
Speaker 2: Regifting, yeah or nah?

667
00:35:07,604 --> 00:35:11,004
Speaker 1: I absolutely I think that re gifting is totally fine

668
00:35:11,604 --> 00:35:14,204
Speaker 1: depending on what it is, right Like, if someone gives

669
00:35:14,244 --> 00:35:17,324
Speaker 1: you a gift that's like nice but not something you'll

670
00:35:17,364 --> 00:35:20,644
Speaker 1: ever use, right, then give it to someone who will

671
00:35:20,764 --> 00:35:21,044
Speaker 1: use it.

672
00:35:21,324 --> 00:35:21,524
Speaker 2: Now.

673
00:35:21,604 --> 00:35:25,124
Speaker 1: If it's like a personal gift, then don't regift obviously,

674
00:35:25,804 --> 00:35:28,364
Speaker 1: And if it's something like I've gotten things that are

675
00:35:28,404 --> 00:35:32,684
Speaker 1: just like these are usually from like sort of family members,

676
00:35:32,724 --> 00:35:35,764
Speaker 1: like you know, extended family, where you're like, oh my god,

677
00:35:35,764 --> 00:35:39,244
Speaker 1: this is just so ugly. It's not even funny, right, Like,

678
00:35:39,324 --> 00:35:41,004
Speaker 1: what am I going to do with this? Like, or

679
00:35:41,084 --> 00:35:42,724
Speaker 1: it might not be ugly, but it's just so not

680
00:35:42,884 --> 00:35:46,204
Speaker 1: my taste, right, Like, it's just not something that I

681
00:35:46,204 --> 00:35:48,924
Speaker 1: would ever want anywhere in my house? What do I

682
00:35:48,964 --> 00:35:50,124
Speaker 1: do with it? I don't want to give it to

683
00:35:50,164 --> 00:35:53,844
Speaker 1: someone else because it's not reflective of my taste or

684
00:35:53,884 --> 00:35:56,724
Speaker 1: what I would want. But I can't throw it out

685
00:35:56,764 --> 00:35:59,204
Speaker 1: because I feel bad. And then I feel like there's

686
00:35:59,204 --> 00:36:01,724
Speaker 1: like a statute of limitations on like how long you

687
00:36:01,724 --> 00:36:04,044
Speaker 1: have to keep a thing before you can toss it,

688
00:36:05,524 --> 00:36:07,724
Speaker 1: and I always I still feel a little bit bad

689
00:36:07,804 --> 00:36:10,004
Speaker 1: throwing it out, but I have thrown out in the

690
00:36:10,044 --> 00:36:12,084
Speaker 1: past because at some point you're like, okay, when does

691
00:36:12,124 --> 00:36:15,244
Speaker 1: this just like that, there's a statute of limitations right

692
00:36:15,284 --> 00:36:17,444
Speaker 1: on on how long you have to keep that gift.

693
00:36:17,684 --> 00:36:21,164
Speaker 1: But I've definitely, especially if I'm open about it, I've

694
00:36:21,164 --> 00:36:23,644
Speaker 1: regifted things like you know, if someone gives me something

695
00:36:23,724 --> 00:36:25,484
Speaker 1: nice and I'm like, hey, like this is amazing, I

696
00:36:25,524 --> 00:36:27,644
Speaker 1: already have one. Do you mind if I give it

697
00:36:27,644 --> 00:36:29,084
Speaker 1: to my sister?

698
00:36:29,684 --> 00:36:32,404
Speaker 2: Well, that is difficult, right because like in some sense

699
00:36:32,444 --> 00:36:36,284
Speaker 2: of things that people will like, they probably have you know,

700
00:36:36,364 --> 00:36:38,084
Speaker 2: s's tricky if you don't know somebody that will to

701
00:36:38,164 --> 00:36:41,124
Speaker 2: avoid Like yeah, I mean, what's that there's fungible versus

702
00:36:41,204 --> 00:36:44,244
Speaker 2: non fungible. I mean like if someone likes whiskey, then

703
00:36:44,324 --> 00:36:47,804
Speaker 2: they're never going to complain about getting more whiskey, right

704
00:36:47,844 --> 00:36:50,804
Speaker 2: Whereas like if they have a certain book, if they've

705
00:36:51,444 --> 00:36:53,364
Speaker 2: already have a copy of On the Edge, The Order

706
00:36:53,404 --> 00:36:56,204
Speaker 2: Risking Everything or The Biggest Bluff? Did that have a subtitle?

707
00:36:56,244 --> 00:36:56,564
Speaker 2: What it's the.

708
00:36:56,524 --> 00:37:01,884
Speaker 1: Subtitle How I Learned to pay attention, master myself and

709
00:37:02,004 --> 00:37:06,044
Speaker 1: win good subtitle? Yeah?

710
00:37:06,164 --> 00:37:07,844
Speaker 2: And although the author of those books might be happy

711
00:37:07,844 --> 00:37:09,364
Speaker 2: if they already have a copy, then that can be

712
00:37:09,524 --> 00:37:12,884
Speaker 2: tricky if you're trying to guess what's in their library.

713
00:37:12,924 --> 00:37:14,924
Speaker 2: Books are probably in a tricky category there.

714
00:37:15,084 --> 00:37:16,964
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are some books that I have various

715
00:37:17,004 --> 00:37:19,684
Speaker 1: copies of and various editions. But there are also books that,

716
00:37:19,844 --> 00:37:22,884
Speaker 1: like I will gift to someone else, and I think

717
00:37:22,884 --> 00:37:25,964
Speaker 1: that that's totally fine, and you never want to be

718
00:37:26,044 --> 00:37:28,204
Speaker 1: that person. By the way, if you're listening to the show,

719
00:37:28,484 --> 00:37:31,404
Speaker 1: don't be the gift giver who's like, hey, I haven't

720
00:37:31,444 --> 00:37:34,964
Speaker 1: seen gift X around, Like what'd you do with? Like

721
00:37:35,564 --> 00:37:38,724
Speaker 1: do not ask about your gifts? That is not the point,

722
00:37:38,764 --> 00:37:42,284
Speaker 1: Like you have given the gift, Like that's it, right,

723
00:37:42,404 --> 00:37:48,084
Speaker 1: Like do if someone offers feedback amazing if they don't, like,

724
00:37:49,324 --> 00:37:51,844
Speaker 1: this is not the reason you gave a gift, right,

725
00:37:52,284 --> 00:37:55,084
Speaker 1: That's why I also like get I get Matt when

726
00:37:55,124 --> 00:37:58,564
Speaker 1: people are like when people expect thank you notes, like

727
00:37:58,604 --> 00:38:01,124
Speaker 1: you know what, like thank you notes are really really nice,

728
00:38:01,404 --> 00:38:05,644
Speaker 1: but like, don't put obligations on people, like, you know,

729
00:38:06,044 --> 00:38:08,564
Speaker 1: I don't expect a thank you note, like, but there

730
00:38:08,564 --> 00:38:11,804
Speaker 1: are people who just feel like everything needs a thank

731
00:38:11,884 --> 00:38:13,804
Speaker 1: you note. I know someone who writes a thank you

732
00:38:13,844 --> 00:38:15,964
Speaker 1: note to a thank you note, and I'm like, dude,

733
00:38:16,084 --> 00:38:18,964
Speaker 1: like that, when does this end? Like when do we

734
00:38:19,004 --> 00:38:25,644
Speaker 1: stop banking each other? You know, just just like smile Nate,

735
00:38:25,684 --> 00:38:27,444
Speaker 1: do you ever engage in any sort of like a

736
00:38:27,484 --> 00:38:30,764
Speaker 1: tit for tat strategy when you come for when when

737
00:38:30,764 --> 00:38:34,324
Speaker 1: it comes to gift giving, like you know, with basically.

738
00:38:34,484 --> 00:38:38,244
Speaker 2: The sterioration where basically we kind of very sporadic if

739
00:38:38,244 --> 00:38:41,084
Speaker 2: we'll give gifts and things like and there's probably some

740
00:38:41,124 --> 00:38:42,964
Speaker 2: tit for tat em.

741
00:38:43,324 --> 00:38:45,724
Speaker 1: Right, Oh, you didn't give me a gift, So that's

742
00:38:45,724 --> 00:38:49,764
Speaker 1: the opposite tip for test. What about what about like,

743
00:38:50,124 --> 00:38:53,404
Speaker 1: you know, do you because I have like some of

744
00:38:53,444 --> 00:38:57,364
Speaker 1: my closest friends, like I always exchange gifts with like

745
00:38:57,644 --> 00:39:00,884
Speaker 1: material gifts, and then others like we we don't do that,

746
00:39:00,964 --> 00:39:03,564
Speaker 1: and we'll like go out for dinner, right, like, well

747
00:39:03,684 --> 00:39:05,244
Speaker 1: we'll do something like that as a gift.

748
00:39:05,404 --> 00:39:08,844
Speaker 2: That's just a lot of regular platonic dinner dates. And

749
00:39:08,844 --> 00:39:12,044
Speaker 2: there's certainly some conscientiousness about like the whole strategy about

750
00:39:12,084 --> 00:39:16,324
Speaker 2: like who pays because you're trying to like assess, you know,

751
00:39:16,364 --> 00:39:22,644
Speaker 2: if someone is way wealthier then but sometimes people want

752
00:39:22,644 --> 00:39:25,804
Speaker 2: to pay, especially men, feel like if if you always

753
00:39:25,804 --> 00:39:29,044
Speaker 2: pay right, so you kind of have some like equilibrium

754
00:39:29,044 --> 00:39:31,524
Speaker 2: ware of like if you're the wealthier person and you're

755
00:39:31,564 --> 00:39:36,124
Speaker 2: not like family or you're not like someone's former boss

756
00:39:36,244 --> 00:39:38,844
Speaker 2: or something, right, then the equilibrium is like the richer

757
00:39:38,844 --> 00:39:40,964
Speaker 2: person pays like eighty percent of the time, I think,

758
00:39:41,044 --> 00:39:44,124
Speaker 2: or something like that. Probably, Yeah, well.

759
00:39:44,124 --> 00:39:47,044
Speaker 1: I think that also, you know, I like exchanging dinners too,

760
00:39:47,724 --> 00:39:51,044
Speaker 1: Like I think that there are lots of different ways

761
00:39:50,724 --> 00:39:53,964
Speaker 1: for doing that. But yeah, it is interesting how different

762
00:39:54,004 --> 00:39:57,324
Speaker 1: equilibriums will establish themselves in different situations. And I don't

763
00:39:57,324 --> 00:39:59,484
Speaker 1: think that that's like a conscious tit for tat, even

764
00:39:59,484 --> 00:40:02,484
Speaker 1: though with you and your partner maybe.

765
00:40:01,844 --> 00:40:04,164
Speaker 2: There's a lot of strategy and relationships by the way.

766
00:40:04,284 --> 00:40:06,604
Speaker 2: You know, there's a book I read by I believe

767
00:40:06,684 --> 00:40:12,004
Speaker 2: Kevin Zolman about like a gto guy to parenting basically huh,

768
00:40:12,004 --> 00:40:16,284
Speaker 2: where it's like, yeah, kids are quite strategic and you know,

769
00:40:16,324 --> 00:40:18,564
Speaker 2: you have to bargain and it's repeated game and things

770
00:40:18,644 --> 00:40:20,324
Speaker 2: like that, and I think there's I think there's something

771
00:40:20,364 --> 00:40:24,684
Speaker 2: to that for many dimensions of relationship. Are there particularly

772
00:40:24,764 --> 00:40:27,284
Speaker 2: nitty or degenerate gifts that you've ever received.

773
00:40:29,804 --> 00:40:34,284
Speaker 1: Let's see, I don't know that those are hard questions

774
00:40:34,324 --> 00:40:38,044
Speaker 1: for me to answer, Like what even is a nitty gift?

775
00:40:38,124 --> 00:40:39,764
Speaker 1: Is a nitty gift? Like, how do we define that?

776
00:40:39,844 --> 00:40:43,164
Speaker 1: Is it a cheap gift? Or is it or is

777
00:40:43,204 --> 00:40:46,764
Speaker 1: it a like play it safe gift like a gift certificate? Right? Like,

778
00:40:46,804 --> 00:40:48,564
Speaker 1: I think that both of those things are nitty.

779
00:40:49,124 --> 00:40:52,164
Speaker 2: But like, I mean my family one time they gave

780
00:40:52,204 --> 00:40:57,324
Speaker 2: out gifts of like the Iraq study Group report. I

781
00:40:57,324 --> 00:40:58,964
Speaker 2: thought that was kind of a nitty gift.

782
00:41:01,084 --> 00:41:01,844
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

783
00:41:02,524 --> 00:41:05,244
Speaker 2: I love it, Yeah, I love it. Yeah?

784
00:41:05,804 --> 00:41:08,964
Speaker 1: What about the most degen gift? Once again, how do

785
00:41:09,004 --> 00:41:13,084
Speaker 1: we define that? Is it like ridiculously expensive splurgy or

786
00:41:13,524 --> 00:41:16,724
Speaker 1: is it like one hundred bucks to spend at Caesar's,

787
00:41:16,724 --> 00:41:19,844
Speaker 1: which is a very deja gift by the way, where

788
00:41:19,884 --> 00:41:22,484
Speaker 1: here's like some slot credit again very You know.

789
00:41:22,484 --> 00:41:30,124
Speaker 2: In college, I had a rave phase, and I think

790
00:41:30,164 --> 00:41:32,324
Speaker 2: the statute of limitations on this has passed, so I

791
00:41:32,324 --> 00:41:35,524
Speaker 2: can so anyway, So my friends and I went to

792
00:41:35,604 --> 00:41:38,684
Speaker 2: like a rave called even further. I think it was

793
00:41:38,684 --> 00:41:42,484
Speaker 2: in either Roal, Illinois maybe Wisconsin. Drive to get there.

794
00:41:42,524 --> 00:41:44,524
Speaker 2: It's outdoors for a couple of days, right, and like.

795
00:41:45,364 --> 00:41:48,004
Speaker 1: That seems like a good location for a rave And.

796
00:41:48,004 --> 00:41:54,844
Speaker 2: My friend was going around trying to get drugs and uh,

797
00:41:56,124 --> 00:41:57,364
Speaker 2: I don't know if sheould be telling the story, but

798
00:41:57,364 --> 00:41:59,244
Speaker 2: I guess I'm halfway through, so I have to continue now.

799
00:42:01,524 --> 00:42:04,084
Speaker 2: And this guy was tripping his balls off and gave

800
00:42:04,164 --> 00:42:08,324
Speaker 2: my friend an entire sheet one hundred tabs of acid

801
00:42:08,404 --> 00:42:12,764
Speaker 2: of LSD. WHOA, So that's pretty that's pretty degenerate. I

802
00:42:12,804 --> 00:42:21,044
Speaker 2: would say, yeah.

803
00:42:17,844 --> 00:42:21,364
Speaker 1: He probably regretted that once he was no longer tripping

804
00:42:21,364 --> 00:42:21,924
Speaker 1: his balls off.

805
00:42:21,964 --> 00:42:23,964
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know, with the retail value in

806
00:42:24,044 --> 00:42:28,204
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight or whatever is kind of my little yeah,

807
00:42:28,524 --> 00:42:30,604
Speaker 2: but but yeah, that's that's kind of be the top

808
00:42:30,684 --> 00:42:32,004
Speaker 2: d GM category for me.

809
00:42:33,364 --> 00:42:36,404
Speaker 1: I can't top that night, I cannot top that. And

810
00:42:36,564 --> 00:42:40,804
Speaker 1: on that note, may you all have a very pleasant

811
00:42:41,124 --> 00:42:45,724
Speaker 1: gift giving experience this holiday season. And remember it's I

812
00:42:45,804 --> 00:42:47,924
Speaker 1: know this is a cliche, but we've talked about in

813
00:42:47,964 --> 00:42:50,924
Speaker 1: the past some cliches are good cliches and their cliches

814
00:42:50,964 --> 00:42:53,364
Speaker 1: for a reason. And it's the thought that counts. Really

815
00:42:53,404 --> 00:42:55,604
Speaker 1: is a good cliche, right, Like, it really is the

816
00:42:55,604 --> 00:42:58,524
Speaker 1: thought that counts, And that would be my gto way

817
00:42:58,564 --> 00:42:59,324
Speaker 1: of giving gifts.

818
00:42:59,644 --> 00:43:01,844
Speaker 2: Maria, you and I will see each other next week

819
00:43:01,844 --> 00:43:04,884
Speaker 2: and we'll literally see hopefully some of the listeners at

820
00:43:04,884 --> 00:43:07,604
Speaker 2: the poker meetup, which again, Maria, what's the date.

821
00:43:07,724 --> 00:43:12,204
Speaker 1: December eleventh, which is a Wednesday at noon.

822
00:43:12,284 --> 00:43:13,924
Speaker 2: It's twenty twenty four, that's this year.

823
00:43:14,004 --> 00:43:20,804
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, at noon at Bellaggio Poker Room. Really excited

824
00:43:21,244 --> 00:43:23,844
Speaker 1: and hope to see and meet some of you there.

825
00:43:30,084 --> 00:43:32,204
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach

826
00:43:32,324 --> 00:43:37,764
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM.

827
00:43:37,884 --> 00:43:40,844
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me, Maria Kondikova.

828
00:43:40,484 --> 00:43:41,804
Speaker 2: And Bobby Nate Silver.

829
00:43:42,124 --> 00:43:45,724
Speaker 1: The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia.

830
00:43:46,164 --> 00:43:49,724
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer

831
00:43:49,764 --> 00:43:53,364
Speaker 1: is Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.

832
00:43:54,004 --> 00:43:56,124
Speaker 2: If you like the show, please rate and review us

833
00:43:56,164 --> 00:43:58,164
Speaker 2: so all the people can find us too. And if

834
00:43:58,204 --> 00:44:00,444
Speaker 2: you want to listen to an AD free version, sign

835
00:44:00,524 --> 00:44:03,044
Speaker 2: up for Pushkin Plus For six, ten and nine a

836
00:44:03,084 --> 00:44:05,564
Speaker 2: month you get access to AD free listening. Thanks for

837
00:44:05,604 --> 00:44:07,084
Speaker 2: tuning in to

838
00:44:15,524 --> 00:44:17,004
Speaker 1: Fly by Wi