WEBVTT - Does Pyromania Actually Exist? 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:14.520 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.880 There's Charles w Chuck Brian, and there's Jerry over there, 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.720 and this is stuff you should know. On our tenth anniversary. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:27.400 How about that. Happy anniversary, Chuck, Happy anniversary, Josh Sheppy anniversary, Jerry, 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:33.360 Happy anniversary, Jerry Nice, Jerry Mouth happy anniversary here. Yeah, 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.760 ten years, Jerry said, ten long years? She did, didn't 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.320 she She did the longest because I think is what 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:43.760 she said. Do you realize if we go another ten 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:47.960 we've been doing it for twenty years, that I'll be 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:54.000 like approaching sixty years old. That seems weird. It's starting 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.120 to seem normal to me, being old, speeding toward our 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.120 ultimate deminds. I'm trying not to think about it like that. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.680 I'm thinking more of like picking the drain of having 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:10.200 mellowed in age like herring and a can right or 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.160 um a pickle like a good pickle takes a minute, 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.280 you know what I'm saying. To get just right? Sure, 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.559 we're at prime pickle age right now. Speaking of pickle, 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.720 Oh yeah you are pickled? Yeah? You feeling okay? We 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.880 talked earlier. Emily and I celebrated our tenth anniversary of 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:32.400 the show last night. A little too much congratulations, some 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.760 a little foggy today. Yeah, I can wait to do 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.319 this Facebook live. That should be interesting. Well, yeah, we're 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.959 gonna do a Facebook live. By the time this comes out, 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:41.440 you guys will have all missed it by a couple 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.160 of weeks. Yeah, and in true stuff, you should know 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:48.600 fashion we probably should have recorded something to be released 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:53.520 today on our anniversary. We didn't, but we're releasing it 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.600 a couple of weeks after we released the Uni Bomber today, 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:58.920 which I think was a good episode. Sure, so it 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:04.040 was a fine ten year anniversary. Yeah, okay, either way, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.040 ten years, ten years it happened. It's so chuck. I 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.800 know what'll clearly the way, the cloudiness, the fogginess, um, 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:18.160 some smoke, bloody Mary, okay, smoke chuck from a fire. Yes, 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.840 And I have to say I admit to getting pumped 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.720 up for this one by listening to deaf Leppard. I 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:29.600 was hoping you'd mentioned def Leppard. I just did take 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.440 it away if you weren't, I was going to. Yeah. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.200 The album's named Pyromania. The song is rock of ages, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.160 but he does say, what is it? No serenade, no 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:45.880 fiber gade, just pyromania? Come on, yeah, what do you want? 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.679 What do you need? I want rock and Roll's right, man. 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:53.800 And then after that I was like, oh, what else 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:55.880 came from this air? So I ended up on like 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.640 Steve Perry and Journey and some other stuff. But I'm 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.400 pump Nonetheless, did you ever did you go to a 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:05.480 little uh? Yes, light e face a little bit. Yeah, 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.000 I think a little boys do. This article by Craig 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.799 Freud and Rich PhD uh as far as I know, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.320 the only PhD to ever write at how Stuff Works. 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.120 He very wisely pointed out that a fascination of fire 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.960 is basically universal among kids. It's a good It's a 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.400 good way to get introduced to things you shouldn't do, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.240 is doing them early on, at a young age, before 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.800 you can actually go to the store and buy gasoline 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.600 and start a real fire. You know. It just kind 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:36.680 of messing around with a little lighter fluid and a 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.440 lighter hairspray and a lighter Yeah, that's another one. Don't 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.600 do any of us, by the way, kids, But I'm 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:49.120 just saying, messing around with fire in small, basically harmless ways. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.880 It's a pretty natural part of your development. Yeah, I mean, 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.920 I think, I think I remember very specifically one time 0:03:57.520 --> 0:03:59.920 when I was playing in the woods. We grew up 0:03:59.920 --> 0:04:01.360 a you know, a couple of acres in the woods, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.280 the clean woods that your neighbor cleaned up and died in. No, no, no, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.160 that that was my friend. Oh those are different woods. Yea. Um. 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.240 I remember very specifically when I was a kid, I 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.040 was probably like ten, we need the Waynes world, Like 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.440 I think I built. I built a thing. I don't 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.159 even know what it's called, but it's you take like 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.760 a coffee can and you dig into the side of 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.400 a hill and you stick the coffee can in there 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.200 and then put a little stovepipe in it, you know, 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.400 like a chimney, right, what do you mean? Like made 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.440 from what I can't remember what I used. Might have 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:41.400 been PBC or something, um, And then I don't know 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:42.800 if you're supposed to cook in it. It was some 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.599 sort of like legit camping thing. But I started a 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.599 fire in it and it got kind of big and 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.960 it was just smoking a lot, and I remember hearing 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.560 a siren and freaked out because I thought it was 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.600 coming for me, which it of course was not. No, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.760 so you didn't burn down the woods. No, I didn't 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.200 burn down the woods. And on looking back, it was 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:03.640 probably a very small fire because it was in a 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.080 coffee can, yeah or not, you know, one of the 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.039 big coffee cans. But still I remember thinking that I 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.800 did something bad and they've gotten me, right, But then 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.600 you ran away, and you're like, oh, I got away 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.200 scot free. I should try something bigger next. No, but 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.039 I did run away and think like, oh boy, that 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.839 was a close one. Did you learn your lesson? Yeah? 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:23.480 I don't remember. I mean, you know, I told the 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.560 story about lighting coat hanger and rings on fire for 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.880 the evil knevil jumps and things like that, but that's all, 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.520 you know, pretty run of the mill stuff. I don't, right, 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.880 So I agree it's fairly running the mill. Imaginative, but 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.080 still fairly running the mill. Right, What about you? I 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.960 feel like I remember a fire of some sort, but 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.080 the fact that I blocked it out makes me think 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.120 it may have been a big fire. But you didn't 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.960 try to like burn down a house being built or anything. No, no, no, 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.280 And I was never like I was, you know, kind 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.880 of fascinated with fire and everything, but you didn't dabbling Arson. 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.400 I just I feel like I feel like in time 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.359 one almost got away from us. And of course it 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.760 was the woods. Yeah, I mean that can happen. But 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.600 I think our fascination with fire, my fascination fire quickly 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:14.400 translated into using lighters to light cigarettes in the woods. Again, yeah, 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.039 mine did not so, but there's a fascination with fire 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.039 that people go through. According to our buddy Sigmu Freud, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.400 if you go through a weirdo psycho sexual development, which 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.880 is to say, not exactly like what Freud thought you 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.120 should go through, you could conceivably come out the other 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:38.960 side hanging on to that fascination with fire, to where 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:45.480 it is an outlet for your stress, okay, your impulsivity. 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.920 It can become a central focus of your life, like 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.440 what you think about is fire. And if you check 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.120 these boxes and some other ones, you could conceivably be 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:01.000 considered a person with pyromania, which we have reached the 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:06.279 pinnacle of political correctness now because I refused to say pyromania, 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.480 it's a person with pyromania. It's entirely possible. There is 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.440 not a single person alive on planet Earth who is 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.360 a true person with pyromania, but we're still going to 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.720 say person with pyromania just in case. Yeah, I mean, 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.400 it's um after reading through this stuff and doing the research, 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:27.440 it's a little squirrely to pin down for sure, because well, 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.880 for a lot of reasons. But the d s M 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:36.240 four five, they do have some criteria that goes as follows, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:41.760 and with each one it really whittles down like just regular, Hey, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:46.280 I'm drunken and I'm starting a fire to uh to 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.240 I want to collect on this insurance. Yeah, so here 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.000 we go. Number one. They must have set fires deliberately 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.080 and purposefully more than once. So that's a lot of people. 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.800 That's pretty baseline. Yeah, and don't think they're talking about 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:06.960 fireplace fires. Uh, we'll get into that, Okay. Must be 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:13.200 tens or exhibit outward emotional behaviors before setting fires. It's excitement, 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.520 facial expressions, changes in voice, that's you may have like 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.240 you must have your tongue sticking out of the corner 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.080 of your mouth while you're lighting the fire. Uh. Must 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.520 be interested in, curious about, fascinated with, and or attracted 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.160 to fires. But but there's a big one that we 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.800 have to add here. Attracted to fire should not have 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.480 anything to do with sexuality. That is apparently an entirely 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.840 different disorder that is even rarer called pyrophilia, and that's 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:45.920 a sexual arousal disorder from fire. Interesting. Yeah, people are 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.480 so interesting, So we need to do a paraphilia episode 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.559 at least in necrophilia episode once. Yeah, there's like a 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.000 lot of Surprisingly, there's a decent amount of research on 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:02.040 that UM number four experience. It's pleasure, tension, relief, or 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:06.000 gratification after setting the fire or watching the fire, but 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.719 not sexual gratification. No, God help you, right, it's not 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:16.520 a person with pyrophilia in that case. Uh So, like, 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:18.000 if you start a fire in the woods and you 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.400 get an erection, it's in your pyrophiliac. If it goes born, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:28.760 then you're a pyrophiliac. Other psychological disorders cannot account better 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.800 for the behavior. So in other words, if you have 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.200 a manic episode and you start a fire, it's due 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.040 to the manic episode and not pyromania. Which now we're 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.000 getting to the point where you start to wonder, like 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.160 is there such a thing as is true pyrophilia? Well, 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.440 especially with this last one, no other motivations for setting 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:52.160 the fire um like collecting insurance, um. Like burning down 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.240 a political rivals office. Yeah, you can't shout like anarchy, right, 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.120 or being just angry at somebody or burning a body, 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:05.160 that doesn't count, uh, improving your living circumstance. So I 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.800 found something about that. One there was back in the 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:12.480 medieval times, not the one where you can go to today, 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.360 but like the real one, not the restaurant. Right, there 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.040 was like this this kind of thing that like if 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:23.160 you hired or basically kidnapped a medieval servant girl, there 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.520 was a good chance that she was going to burn 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.680 your house and your children down so she could go 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:33.560 back home. So that would be an example of that interesting, uh, 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:38.199 responding to delusions or hallucinations and then finally impaired judgment. 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.719 And that's what I was talking about, being intoxicated or 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.280 if you have dementia or something like that. Right, and 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.920 even chuck, from what I understand, even if you are 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:54.199 doing this, if you're starting fires just to start fires 0:10:54.200 --> 0:11:00.880 for fun, that would technically not qualify as pyromania. You 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.800 you would basically just be an arsonist. Like there's there's 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.160 actually so there's an umbrella term fire setting, which is 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:13.600 a behavior arson is a crime, Pyromania is a psychological diagnosis, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.040 and they're all kind of wrapped up together, which is 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.480 why it makes getting things like how common is it? 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.640 It's really tough to kind of pinpoint that, right. So 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:27.040 Freud and Rich says, if you are a diagnostician and 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:30.000 you're presented with the person who sets a lot of fires, 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.240 and they're like, they don't drink, they don't even purchase 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.760 insurance because they consider it a form of gambling. They 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.320 don't have an erection, no erection to be found. Um. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.320 They like, once you whittle all this stuff away, you'd 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.480 be like, oh my god, this person is making my 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.480 career right now, I found a genuine person with pyromania. 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.760 Very rare. Yeah, And through the years it's been really uh, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.080 it's kind of gone on a roller coaster ride as 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:02.760 far as uh. The definition of pyromania said, during the 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.240 hundred and fifty years span of legal and medical literature, 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:12.079 sometimes people were frequently diagnosed, sometimes they weren't at all. Uh, 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.800 And it doesn't seem to be any change in behaviors. Rather, 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.920 um changes in shifts in psychiatry and what we think 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:26.280 is diagnosable, right, and what how much personal accountability we 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.600 ascribe to mental illness. Right. So like with with there's 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.480 just this constant evolution and it's actually just kind of 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.320 a circle. It's not really evolving, it's it's when you 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:44.040 think about pyromania, UM, the question is is it an 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.720 on the result of an uncontrollable impulse or is it 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:52.360 the result of an impulse that wasn't properly controlled. So 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.319 is the person culpable or not? And over this one 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.720 study that you mentioned, over like a hundred and fifty years, 0:12:57.720 --> 0:12:59.679 they saw it just bounce back and forth and back 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:03.119 and forth, and it corresponded to the attitudes of society 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.560 and psychology of whether or not a person's responsibility for 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.880 their own actions. And in court also, if you were 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.960 holding court today, if you said, well, I plead not 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.680 guilty to that arson by reason of insanity, um, because 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.079 I have pyromania, that that you would just have automatically 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.120 shot yourself in the foot right there in the middle 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.320 of the courtroom. Because part of the criteria of pyromania 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.440 is that you're not responding to a delusion or any 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:37.160 kind of severe mental illness um. So by definition, you 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.080 would be lucid and know what you're doing. Is wrong, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.280 or else you wouldn't be a person with pyromania. Yeah, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.000 I didn't know. This is complicated. It's very complicated. Should 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:47.760 we take a break. I think we should. All right, 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.920 We're gonna entangle this a bit more and come back 0:13:49.960 --> 0:14:20.160 and speak to um. How common this stuff is? So Chuck? Yes, 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.360 how common is that? Well, like we said, it's kind 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.720 of tough to say because it's all wrapped up statistically 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.640 in and arson statistics, and we've already determined this not 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.840 necessarily the same thing, right, And so consider this, if 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:40.440 you are an investigator, a psychiatrist, or a psychologist who's 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.240 like trying to figure out how many people with pyromania 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.440 there are, you have to go find people who are 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:52.640 in jail for arson. So, by definition, your population sample 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:57.000 is skewed one way. Right. What about people who may 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.440 have pyromania but have have said like, well, I'm not 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.320 going to jail, I can just start fires in my fireplace, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.800 like you were asking, Oh, well, they would still qualify 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.560 as a person with pyromania. They're just not a criminal 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.640 arsonist because arson is a criminal act. They're smart enough 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.880 to not do this. Yeah, And there was Now that 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.960 I look back, there was no distinction that you start 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.040 a fire like on someone else's property that becomes dangerous. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.000 You literally could start a fire in your own fireplace 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:29.560 and make an excited face and feel relieved afterward, not 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.640 get an erection, and uh, I mean that'd be a 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.200 great way to I mean, all things being equal, that's 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.720 not a bad not bad at all. You know, kind 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.640 of control control your own urge, especially considering that um 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.840 pyromania is a it's an impulse control disorder, so it's 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:52.640 in the same class as like pathological gambling addictions. If 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.400 you're starting fires in your fireplace and that's it, you 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.400 could be a lot worse off. Oh yeah, for sure. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.920 There was one study though, psychiatrist named Nina Lindbergh in 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:09.040 Finland reviewed twenty years of um medical records and psychiatric 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:13.480 evaluations of six hundred arsonists, all men, and it's definitely 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.720 skewed more heavily towards men. Yeah, is that right? Overall? 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:22.480 Supposedly so, Freud thought it was a expression of misdeveloped 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:29.000 or yeah, misdeveloped male psycho sexual um urges. All right, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.280 But they found that most of these arsonists, you know, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.480 again they started chipping away, most of them had mental disorders. 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:43.280 Personality disorders. Sixty eight percent of the arsonists were drunk, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.600 which is really interesting. I think it is so that 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.520 that whole thing about not being drunk and not being 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:55.600 uh considered to have pyromania. Some people reported their sense 0:16:55.640 --> 0:17:00.400 of the like the arousal was um excited by drinking, 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.680 So how is that work? And they also were choking 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.800 themselves out with a belt, right, They're going for the 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:11.760 full Montya, the trifecta. Uh. Then they separated the group 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.720 into two things, criminal arsonists and pure arsonists. Um, these 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.240 are people, like you said, that had not committed a 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:24.960 crime of arson. Um. Well, but it's interesting. I thought 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.520 they started out as arsenists. Now, oh no other criminal activities. Okay, yeah, 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.960 all right, that makes sense. And then finally they applied 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.560 the old d s M at the time for criteria 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.520 and only twelve of these six hundred dudes met that 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.440 that criteria, although it says that nine of them admitted 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.600 to being drunk. So how did they fit that criteria? 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:48.879 That's what I'm saying. Like even confusing, even if you 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:50.800 look at the history of the d s M, the 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.840 d s M one, it starts out as being listed 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:58.000 as an obsessive compulsive disorder doesn't make any appearance at 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.119 all in the second edition, and by the third, fourth, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.000 and fifth it's considered um an impulse control disorder. So 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:11.000 just from to you know, the current time, there have 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.640 been all these different bouncing back and forth about what 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.960 it is and they still have no idea. Well but 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.359 anyway you slice it, it looks like it's a very 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.160 small number of people. Yeah if, like you said, even 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.760 if it's a thing at all. Right, So there's another study, 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.920 um by these two researchers, Grant and Kim. They sound 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:34.640 like a folk duo. Two Yeah. Um. They got their 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:39.159 hands on i think twenty one or twenty seven, twenty 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:45.440 one subjects who had been clinically diagnosed with pyromania okay um, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.520 and strangely, eleven were male, ten were female, which is 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:54.359 kind of surprising since this is supposedly excused. Eleven male, 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.800 ten female. Um, And they found some really interesting stuff. 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.560 They said that um MO to them, the onset began 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.679 an adolescence or early adulthood, and supposedly that's like the 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.879 risky time for a lot of impulse control disorders. UM 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.679 that they basically all reported feeling arousal or excitement not 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.440 necessarily aroused like you think, like sexual arousal. No, can't 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.280 be right. It's just got to be like you're you're 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.119 just wound up, and the only way to get unwound, 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.760 and you know it is to start that fire. And 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.520 then when you start that fire, you feel a tremendous 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.600 sense of relief, you may feel excited. And then from 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.560 what I understand, and this really goes with kleptomania, you 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.520 remember kleptomania or episode about that it was like that 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.959 you could not not steal. The only way to to 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.119 to turn the switch off in your brain was a steel. 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.200 In this case, the only way to turn the switch 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:53.439 off in your brain is to start a fire. But 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.640 you immediately regret it, Like, but I think of them 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:02.520 reported immediately having verer distress after starting a fire, so 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.439 you know it's wrong. And this is this is probably 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.840 the saddest thing about the whole thing. UM one third, 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.040 which is so seven out of twenty one, that's still 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.680 a significant number reported UM considering suicide as a means 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:20.000 of controlling their fire starting Like they felt that bad 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.399 about this that they wanted to just kill themselves so 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.159 they wouldn't start fires anymore. So there is like a 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.840 real there's a real cost to it, in addition to 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:32.479 the fact that this is a really dangerous impulse control 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.840 of the story. I mean, gambling is bad enough, but 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:36.960 what are you doing with gambling. You're ruining your life. 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.320 You're ruining your family's life, maybe your parents. It has 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:45.640 a finite amount of reach with with fire setting. It's 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.840 that's like you could kill any number of people. Yeah, 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.640 offend it interesting to that. Uh, they're kleptomania, like these 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.199 impulse control disorders. We talked about, you know, being a 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.639 little kid and stealing something. I think a lot of 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.119 kids go through playing around with fire, playing around with 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.240 stealing things. I guess gambling is sort of the only 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.280 one that's really not I don't know a lot of 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.520 ten year olds that are, you know, playing three card money. 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.720 I got in trouble for gambling in elementary, but we 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.200 were playing with skittles or whatever. And even at the time, 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.520 I'm like, come on, we're playing for skittles here. This 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:22.280 is ridiculous. This is an outrage giving my cards back. 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.359 But I do remember feeling bad when I stole something 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.040 once when I was a kid, and uh, but I 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.520 think that's the point of doing all that. Yeah, but 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.880 I don't Yeah, maybe so, but I don't remember feeling 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.240 bad about the fire. I just remember feeling like when 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.520 I heard that siren, like crap, I'm in trouble. Right. 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.720 So what you're learning by testing boundaries uh and and 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.240 following your impulses is oh, doing this makes me feel 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.040 really bad, or oh, doing this scares me to death 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:51.399 because I can get in big trouble for it. And 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:56.960 and you get that emotional limbic system learning, Um, yeah, 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:01.239 SmackDown exactly, And that's how you really truly learned. Your 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.480 parents can tell you all day long, right, but you 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.600 unless you're like al Gore, you're not gonna listen to it. 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.359 You know, you're not gonna listen to your parents like that. 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.640 You gotta go test it out yourself, right, Or you're 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.760 budding sociopath and you don't feel bad, you're like, I 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.119 want to do this, and that limbic system doesn't smack 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.199 you down. It says, maybe you should. You don't like 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.080 that kid down the street, Maybe you should set par 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:29.959 to his house or steal his stuff or mistreat that animal. 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:32.920 You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do any of this stuff. Well, 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.880 that's true, but especially the animal thing. Yeah, but that's 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:40.440 like one of the early signs of you know that 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:48.760 is that is um of psychopathy. Psychopathy um, that is uh, 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:53.520 that is debated. What you're talking about is the McDonald triad. Yeah, 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:55.320 I mean I don't I don't think it always does. 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.080 But a lot of times when you look back at 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:00.359 the history of serial killers and things that they started 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:02.720 with weird animal things. But I think the problem is 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.560 that's like so sexy and so made the news. The 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:10.080 idea that if a kid um is a bedwetter, starts fires, 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.000 and mistreats animals, that was two out of three, Right, 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.400 You're close that you you can basically say, well, there's 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.000 a serial that kid's going to grow up to be 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:20.680 a serial killer, which is not the case. I think 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:24.800 it's it's um is that reductive or deductive? Where really 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:27.679 it's if you look at serial killers, they tend to 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.440 have they they check those three boxes. But just because 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:33.560 you check those three boxes doesn't mean you're going to 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.479 be a serial killer. No. But let's say this, if 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:37.800 you're a parent and your kid is doing all three 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.080 of those things, you know, just keep a little eye 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:43.400 on them. And eye on the right. Just give him 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:45.840 a chipmunk and see what they do. Test them out, 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.119 give a chipmunk in a match, and just lock them 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:50.879 in a room and see what happens. We should probably 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:53.560 take a break after that one. Yes, we'll be back 0:23:53.640 --> 0:24:21.960 right after this. All right. So let's say it turns 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:27.040 out that you may be part of the one and 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:29.240 not in a good way where you're super rich. Yeah, 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:31.919 did we say that that? Like they think one percent 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.480 of Arsons is pyromaniac, not even one to four percent 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.760 of the population, not even so. But let's say you 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:42.720 are one of those rare people. Um, how would you 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.520 treat this impulse control disorder? So one thing I saw was, 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:51.520 as with any impulse control disorder, but particularly because this 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:56.440 is such a dangerous, threatening impulse control disorder, you basically 0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.280 need to keep in touch with a psychiatric caregiver your 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:04.399