WEBVTT - Are robots electronic persons? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.160 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:14.640 Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.079 podcast that looks at the future and says, Robot Parade, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.400 Robot Parade, what have the flags that the robots made? 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.920 Jonathan Strickland and I'm Lauren Bogglebaum and today our third host, 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.319 Joe McCormick, is not with us, but he will be 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.240 back soon. And in the meanwhile, if you couldn't tell, 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.200 we're gonna be talking about robots again, robots from So 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.240 it's it's a shame that Joe can't be here because 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.199 he actually pitched the other show will be recording and 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.279 that will come out later this week that also has 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.239 to do about robots. But we're going to do our 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:52.120 best to uphold the high standards of of robot integrity 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.560 that that Joe embodies, because as we all know, Joe 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:00.760 is robot. He is mostly most of that is clamp uh, 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.600 but they're delightful clamps uh and and really integrity is 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:07.759 what this episode is going to be about. Yeah, it's 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.520 kind of alright. So a little backstory here. Back at 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:16.320 the end of May, uh, there was a report that 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.840 came out that spurned a sparked, I should say not spurned, 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:24.280 sparked a lot of conversation about robots and rites. And 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.360 so we're gonna talk about what that was and what 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.720 was said in that report. But before we get to that, 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.200 we should also mention that this episode has a lot 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.280 of tie ends with tons of other episodes we have 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.360 previously recorded, because, as it turns out, we love us 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.880 some robots. We we talked about robots a lot here 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.160 on the show about the future of technology and science. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.600 Strangely enough, Yeah, no, okay, so so we've got we've 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.840 got what happens when a robot breaks the law from 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.960 March of Was that was that so recently? It was 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.760 a million years? Right? Yeah? And then there's but then 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.480 there's also well what steal our jobs? Which in December? 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:05.120 And will robots take our jobs in May? Something tells 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.600 me we didn't really pay attention when we recorded the 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.520 second one. One of those have been a video. It 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.560 might have been it could be that one is a video, 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.959 or it could very well be that we recorded two 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.320 episodes with the same title. I mean to be fair, 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.280 this is an ongoing conversation that is getting more and 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.400 more complicated. We also have one on universal basic income, 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.480 which ties into those concepts as well, absolutely, because you 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.040 know when robots steal our jobs, that is when university 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.880 basic income is going to be how do I get 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.919 some Money's right? We also have AI Friend or Foe 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.880 from April two thousand fourteen, What if the President were 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.519 a robot? That was also a Joe suggestion that was 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:52.160 also April two and more. Yes, if we listed every 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.800 single episode, I mean really, just pull up our RSS 0:02:54.880 --> 0:03:00.120 feed and search robot. I think I got hits to 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:04.080 be fair. That also includes all the metadata, so robot 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.040 shows up a lot, but thirty four hits and we 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.440 have not been recording that show that long. I mean, 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:12.880 so why are we going to talk about again? Because 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.359 there was a report for the European Parliament and that's 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:16.600 the one that I was talking about that came out 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.760 at the end of May and had proposed some provisions 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:25.519 to grant personhood to robots electronic personhood d yeah, among 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.880 other things. That's electronic personhood is probably the element that 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.880 I think has had the most conversation around it after 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.880 this report came out. Yeah, because it's kind of the 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.320 flashiest one and it's it's sort of the most far 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.600 reaching part of the report, but a lot of the 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.440 report is actually very grounded and down to earth and 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.120 and I I love it, like I love a lot 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:46.680 of the ideas in here. So yeah, we were really 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.680 excited about talking, uh with with with ourselves and to 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:52.480 you guys. I was about to say with you guys, 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.560 but I guess you can't practice. I mean, they can 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.480 talk back. We just we're not ignoring you. We just 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.800 literally cannot hear you. Wait was oh no, that's no, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.520 he's eating something crunchy at any rate. So we wanted 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.240 to really kind of boil down what was in this 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.760 report because there's a lot more to it than just 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.880 the electronic personhood. Like you were saying, Lauren, that gets 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.440 a lot of attention because it almost it's like saying, 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.240 would you give your vacuum cleaner rights. We've we've had 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.280 these discussions here on this show. The cool thing is 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:26.839 at the end of those discussions we always like, you know, 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.480 we really need to talk about this. Yeah, it would 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.680 be wonderful if elected officials would begin considering this sort 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.520 of thing. And it's happening. It's crazy, alright. So the 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.240 report came out sixteen We should also say it's a 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.479 draft report, or at least that's how it's titled. Yeah, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.920 it's a proposal. Yeah, it's called draft Report with Recommendations 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.960 to the Commission on Civil Law Rules on Robotics. The 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.400 capacity to make even very exciting things sound very dull. 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.359 I mean, how Yeah, there's gotta be a rule somewhere 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.239 that if you are proposed something, or you've created a report, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.039 that the the title must be one of two things. 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.920 It must either be excessively long and with at least 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.839 right and and by being excessively long, you have already 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.200 told somebody everything they need to know about what's in 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:23.120 the report. Or it has to incorporate a stupid acronym 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.760 that has been tortured so that it can encompass the 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.719 various concepts that are in the report. And if you're lucky, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.720 you get both. Yeah. So the thing about this report, 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.560 it had some awesome stuff in it. So, first of all, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.960 the general purpose of the proposal is to start those 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:45.160 official discussions into developing policies and guidelines in the field 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:49.960 of robotics, particularly since individual member states in the European 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.800 Union are developing their own policies over time. So the 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.400 fear is that you're gonna get all these different countries 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.800 making their individual rules, and then you're gonna have conf 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.800 x between the way one country legislates robotics and the 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.679 way another one does. And especially in the European Union, 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.359 where everyone is working together very closely and literally working 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:12.599 in other countries than the one of their own origin, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.280 it gets really important, really quickly to have agreement in 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.880 all of exactlyly. Yeah, if you if you got your 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.679 training and your experience in one country in the European Union, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.919 and you are working in the robotics field in some capacity, 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:27.200 and then you take an opportunity in a different country 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.080 in the European Union, which is perfectly legitimate, you might 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.479 find yourself struggling because these different number states have different rules. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.320 This is a proposal to make more of an umbrella 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.359 of rules so that it's kind of an even playing 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.599 ground throughout the entire European Union. Now, to tell you 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.400 how cool this report is in many ways, the introduction 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.039 of the proposal at the very beginning section A. Under 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:59.720 introduction they reference Mary Shelley's Frankenstein the Pygmalion myth. They 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.520 all so I didn't put in the notes They also 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:07.280 mentioned the progue golem, They mentioned catal Copex. Are you 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:12.840 are or Rossum's universal Robots from where the term robot originates? Yes, Yes, 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.400 that's where it was coined. Ye. And it's already ten 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.120 times more awesome than any government proposal I've ever read, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.560 because you've got all these things in the introduction talking 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:28.320 about throughout our our history, we have created fiction that 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.200 talks about our our desire to create a synthetic form 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.640 of life, or at least intelligence. In their case, they 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.560 were talking about intelligent machines, although I would argue Frankenstein's 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.840 monster is not really a machine. It's an artificial Yeah, 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:43.920 I guess so, I mean on the same level that 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.200 any human is a machine. Um. Now, section B that 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:49.840 each of these sections, by the way, it's like a 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.360 paragraph under the introduction. But Section B of the introduction 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.040 posits that were on the threshold of a new industrial 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:00.440 revolution that is powered by artificial intelligence, and that part 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:03.920 of society will remain unaffected by this revolution, and so 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.160 it's wise to consider the implications now again, which is 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.040 what we say basically at the end of every single 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.600 podcast that we do about robots, right, and particularly ones 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.160 about the idea of you know, will automation UH ultimately 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.520 take more jobs than it creates? How are we going 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.280 to deal with that? That's really what that paragraph is 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:30.120 getting at, saying, look, we can't even fully anticipate the 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.120 consequences of this. We know what's happening. We know that 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.600 robotics and artificial intelligence, machine learning, automation, all of these 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.480 things are going to lead to a crazy amount of 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.000 change on par with the industrial revolution of the past. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.800 We need to start talking about that in an official capacity, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.280 not just like thought experiments, but actually, like, let's lay 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.960 down some guidelines so that we don't mess things up 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.600 too much. Yeah, and and by by way of kind 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.480 of providing proof of that, it points out that robots 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.760 sales have been increasing exactly. Yeah, they're saying the robots 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.360 sales been on the rise, especially in UH areas like 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:13.520 car manufacture, automotive industry, the auto nation, in the automotive 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.839 industry has really been on the rise, as well as 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.320 just an electronics in general. And also states that robots 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.960 will provide numerous benefits in the short to medium term, 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.920 with a potential for quote virtually unbounded prosperity end quote 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.679 in the long term. That's a lovely phrase. Yeah, it's 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.520 kind of like the Star Trek belief where you know, 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.160 you've got like everything on demand all the time because 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.200 of this wondrous world. It's probably not going to quite 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.880 that extent because, as we have talked about in the past, 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.000 to get to that Star Trek future, we'd also have 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.680 to find like some sort of crazy energy sources, and 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.360 we don't have dilithium crystals yet, so not yet. Keep 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.480 keep digging, everyone, yep. So the flip side, however, because 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.400 this isn't all about just sunshine and rose is here 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.000 robotic roses now, they wanted to say, like, hey, we 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.520 got to consider some of the possible bad things about this. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.600 They say that these advances quote may result in a 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.880 large part of the work now done by humans being 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.040 taken over by robots end quote, and that that would 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.960 affect not just employment, but also systems like social security, 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.040 which rely on employment taxes for funding. So, which is 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.560 a thing that I had somehow never thought about before. 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.640 But it is yeah, clear, I mean, once it's pointed out, 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.680 it's like, of course, social security is a thing that 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:34.000 we need to think about in this crazy future of robots. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.480 Taken her jerbs. Exactly. If you if you are not 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.040 having enough money paid into Social Security because so many 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.920 jobs have been taken over by automated systems, then social 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.040 Security itself can no longer perform the function it's meant 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.800 to do. And you start to see a pretty precipitous 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.960 decline in the quality of life for thousands millions of 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.800 people right well, based on that current system. I mean, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.680 obviously if we had some thing like basic universal income, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.520 then that would help. But see then you're all, how 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.120 are you funding that? Exactly, Like if you don't, if 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.080 you don't have people working, they can't make money and 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:14.400 you can't tax them. I mean like they're not. Yeah 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.640 you could, but they just have even less. I mean, like, 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.760 I have these fingernail clippings, what do you want. I've 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.600 got some like old newspapers and the garage I can 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:28.240 give you. I mean I was saving them for some reason. 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:33.000 But yeah, it's just it's and so again, this this 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.319 proposal is saying, look, we're acknowledging that these issues are 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.360 right on the cusp of happening today. We need to 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.920 start seriously talking about it, right and furthermore, on this 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.880 kind of social issue, side. You know what happens when 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.000 a robot breaks the thing, including a person. We need 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.920 we need some legal recourse for figuring that out exactly, 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.360 and we need to be able to assign liability in 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.560 those issues we need. We need to also understand how 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.000 do robots and humans interact in a way that is 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.440 a positive experience for humans? Uh, Sometimes that means creating 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.559 an experience that appears to be a positive experience for robots, 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.840 because even though at this stage, I would argue robots 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.840 can't appreciate a person being polite to a robot for example, 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.079 right the robot don't care? Yeah, it doesn't. It lacks 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.720 the capacity. We have not programmed it to love as 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:28.440 of yet, but or to feel slighted. Sometimes by creating 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.920 a system that encourages people to behave in a way 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.720 towards robots that they would toward another human being a 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:40.640 positive way, I would yes, that actually has a benefit 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.320 on the person. Right. Like, Like, we've seen some interesting 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:50.200 studies about when you create responses and robots so that 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.320 they seem to understand when they get something right or 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.640 get something wrong, and they seem to have an action, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.400 people are feeling more receptive towards those robots and work 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.320 more easily with those robots. And so again, while it 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.560 may not have a direct benefit to the robot in 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.200 any you know, psychological way, it has a benefit on 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.960 us as we interact with those robots, which is it's 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.040 one of those things that you don't necessarily think about 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:20.840 when you start talking about policies. Uh. Also, they say, hey, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.000 what happens, um if robots like get super smart, like 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.880 like way more like more than human smart smart like 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.480 like like not just human smart smart, but they're also 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.720 autonomous so that they can act on that smart smart. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.840 They don't necessarily need to be conscious or self aware, 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:43.679 just really really intelligent. And so essentially they're saying, we 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.480 need to think about the possibility of robots becoming a 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.920 danger to the human species. I don't let's not create 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.760 a butt that's gonna kill us. Let's not skynet this thing, 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.760 let's know not that. Yeah, let's do the opposite of that. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.520 Well maybe not the opposite, but the different option at least. 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:08.000 So considering all of those things, the introduction concludes, the 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.320 European Union should really get off its stuff and start 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.560 talking about these ideas and work on a strategy to 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.680 avoid problems in the future. So that's just the introduction. Yeah, 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.200 it's just laying everything out there for you. And then 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.760 what they do later on in the report is kind 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.680 of laid down general principles and some guidelines that they 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:29.000 would suggest, But those guidelines are very general. We're you're 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.480 going to hear the same thing throughout the rest of 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.400 this podcast where they say we need to form a 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.400 committee specifically to set this up. Yeah, that this entire 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.800 proposal is like is like one of those meetings that 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.160 you're just sitting there and planning more meetings for the future, 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.240 right right, and then eventually you later on down the 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.320 road hold a meeting to discuss how you can have 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.440 fewer meetings and that's when everyone loses their mind and 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.240 run screaming from the room. But right now, where at 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.000 a stage where they they are saying like, hey, we 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.360 don't have all the answers. This this document is not 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.560 meant to because he's not an answer. This is just 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.880 a suggestion for how we might come up with the 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.040 exactly this isn't this isn't that that guide you would 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.440 find in Beetlejuice about how to uh, you know, how 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.160 how to work would they recently diseased I'm sorry deceased 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.960 jokers in the movie anyway. So the next section is 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.040 titled General Principles. Are at the beginning of it as 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.560 general Principles and the reports sites Asimov's Laws of Robotics, 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.520 because of course they do seek reference number like eighteen. 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.520 Again it's pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah, so if you are 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.040 if you are rusty on Asimov's Laws of robotics, they 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.680 are first, a robot may not harm a human or 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.200 through inaction, allow a human to come to harm. Second, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.560 a robot must obey and the order is given by 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.840 a human unless it would violate the first law. A 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.600 robot must protect itself from harm unless doing so would 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.920 conflict with either of the first two laws. A fourth 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.160 and or zero with depending on how you choose, because 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.440 it was added a little bit later, A robot may 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.440 not harm humanity or by an action, allow humanity to 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.560 come to harm. Now, these are not innate laws, right 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:16.240 there's These are just good ideas. These were good ideas 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.240 that a science fiction author came up with for the 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.840 purposes of creating interesting narratives that would show how even 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:28.200 these very basic ideas could sometimes have consequences. Yeah, that 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:33.960 you didn't anticipate, but we generally since then have said 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.560 those laws of robotics seem like a really good idea 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:38.240 that lets kind of lay it out just how we 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:39.960 want it. Yeah, if you've got a big old metal 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.200 thing that weighs like a half ton and it can 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.760 move around and whack stuff, let's try and make sure 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:49.400 it doesn't whack people. Yeah, preferably so. Uh, then we 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.840 get the liability section talking about whacking people. This is it, 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:55.320 This is what this is about, right, Like, how do 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:59.120 we determine who is or what is liable in this 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:04.480 in very scenarios? And this relates very closely to that 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.639 podcast we did in the past about what happens if 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:11.119 a robot breaks the law. So we get to a 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.840 point where this is where the report first suggests that 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.639 the European Union might need to classify robots under a 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:22.880 new category, either like a category like persons, like essentially, say, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.280 can we treat robots like people in the sense of 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.720 liability like legally speaking, legally speaking, or would it be 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.119 more like animals would be more like objects? Or do 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.920 we need to create an entirely new classification for an 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:39.360 intelligent non human entity, right right, something that can behave 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.439 at least semi autonomously, and something harder than a dolphin 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.879 less bound to the sea. Yes. So, first thing they 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.800 point out is that AI and machine learning are transforming 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.960 how robots interact with environments. And we wouldn't necessarily call 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.720 even the most advanced AI that we have operating today 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:01.919 in a thin close to being conscious or self aware, 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.119 but that almost doesn't really matter, right, It could still 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.320 be active in a way that could potentially be harmful. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.000 And we're seeing more applications that allow machines to learn 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.600 from their environments and adapt their approaches to complete certain tasks. 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:20.440 That complicates that the whole autonomous part that makes robots useful. Yeah, 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.879 and the idea that you know, since we've been seeing 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.440 machine learning like go from observing a pendulum and determining 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.800 what the laws of physics must be based upon those 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.040 movements up to the you know, learning what a cat 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.720 is based upon just feeding it information, you know, and 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.000 and then getting to a point where we can maybe 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.200 create an artificial intelligence, set it in a room, give 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.640 it a task, and have it learned from its mistakes 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.760 so that it eventually begins to do that task more 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.000 and more efficiently. That's that's creating something very different from 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.280 just this machine will follow a specific set of instructions 0:18:55.320 --> 0:19:00.400 and repeat it exactly every time until it breaks. Right, 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.080 And because right now, the way that robots work, take 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.879 a take a roomba for example, nice easy, nice easy 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.000 thing that you may or may not have interacted with. Uh, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.879 right now, if a roomba trips and trips you and 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:16.760 you die, Um, you sue you see the company, You 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.720 see I robot? Yes, I think so, yeah, exactly believe 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.480 it is I robot. So that would be that that's 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.520 exactly the case. Because robots right now, for the most part, 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.679 are essentially machines that do a very specific task, and 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:30.760 they do it pretty much the same way every time, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.800 even with something like the roombo which has some object 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.399 avoidance and some other little bit of learning for for 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.679 mapping purposes. But but it's very basic, right, It's not 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:41.359 like it's not like the room but suddenly going to 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.760 vacuum in a totally different way. Right, it can't. It 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.040 lacks that capability. But at this point we would say, 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.800 all right, well, if the if the machine were to 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.520 cause harm through its uh, it's normal operations, You would 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.639 essentially say the manufacturer, the producer of that. Maybe the 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.199 programmer is liable, right, But that gets more complicated as 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.760 you get into these these devices that have machine learning 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:10.359 and autonomy. Yeah. Yeah, because if it's learning how to 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.520 do new stuff, if if it's interacting within environment that 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:19.000 the programmer didn't account for and therefore learns something harmful, 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.159 then do you blame the manufacturer? They actually the report 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.720 actually says that the more it learns, the less you 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:32.000 can really blame the creator, right that that it's behaviors 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:36.080 that's learning are due to whatever environment and variables it's encountering. 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.719 And it may very well be that if you were 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.199 to trace that behavior all the way back down to 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.959 the gem, the germ of an idea, the nugget of 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.879 programming that eventually evolved into that behavior, it would be 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.240 very difficult to say, well, this is clearly the fall 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:58.720 of manufacturer, which means that maybe the robot itself has 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.320 to be liable, which raise as questions like, well, how 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.480 how do you deal with that? You've got to lie 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.240 bad robot, I mean, the robot can't think or feel. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.200 You can't punish the I mean, if you punish the robot. 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.560 It would be meaningless, right, Like, the robot can't feel 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.879 badly about it. It It can't learn from that experience. It 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.040 can't be like, Wow, it put me in solitary and 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.760 now I'm I'm gonna really turn things around. Yeah, I mean, 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.560 you're not gonna get like a robot shoshank redemption thing going. 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.000 I mean, it's it's really it's really shady whether or 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.000 not humans are penitent by being put in penitentiary here. 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:38.280 That is an episode I want to do, yes and 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:42.320 upsetting episode. Probably a lot of not shouting at each other, 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:47.119 but shouting just into the void. Yeah, a lot of that. 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.159 But at any rdy getting back to the robots, so 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.760 we they the report says, we need to perhaps come 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:57.080 up with some uh definitions so that we can figure 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.040 out ways to assign liability in those cases where machines 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.760 are having this level of artificial intelligence and autonomy. Yeah, 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.520 and it furthermore proposes to to create a system of 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.840 registration for robots that are so advanced this could become 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.280 a problem. Yeah. This is like almost like saying, you know, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.919 the way you might have to register a weapon, The 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.720 idea that you know, at a robot there's a sufficient 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:24.359 level of intelligence also carries with it a certain amount 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.520 of risk towards humans, and that intelligence may not necessarily 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:30.960 come in the form of physical violence. It could come 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.280 into form of sharing your information in a way that 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:38.760 you had not anticipated, or perhaps uh spying in the 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.879 sense of like a video surveillance type of issue. So 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.960 there the draft says, maybe we need to have a 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.280 registration system, and once in a robot reaches a certain threshold, 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:54.320 whether it's a threshold in artificial intelligence or just the 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.920 various features in the robot, at that point, the producer 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:02.760 must register the robot so that there is a government 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:07.840 document connected with that specific entity. In the case that 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:14.120 that entity goes robo berserk, or does a make some mistake, 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.520