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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Ay, Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well. How about with you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We get asked. I think you and I both get

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Speaker 1: asked about how our jobs influence our parenting style. And

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Speaker 1: I know your kids are a little older than my

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Speaker 1: kids are, and I think about that a lot. Actually,

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Speaker 1: what am I doing differently? My dad was an attorney,

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Speaker 1: and anytime I talked about potentially doing something wrong or illegal,

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Speaker 1: he was never concerned about the ethics. He was always

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Speaker 1: concerned I was going to get caught. That was his thing.

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Speaker 1: And he said, do not call me called David Shepherd,

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Speaker 1: who's our family friend, who's a defense attorney, and get

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Speaker 1: ready to provide your own bail. So I bet I

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Speaker 1: know the answer to this. But are you an extra

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Speaker 1: paranoid parent because of what your job is?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that that's something fairly common

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Speaker 2: with people who work in law enforcement. We see such

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Speaker 2: a concentrated exposure of kind of the worst type of

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Speaker 2: crime is that you could imagine as a parent, you know,

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Speaker 2: experiencing such as child abduction or you know, kids sneaking

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Speaker 2: out to meet somebody they met online. And yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think it really from my perspective, going all the

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Speaker 2: way back to my older set of kids, you know,

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Speaker 2: that was where it become a little bit more paranoid

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Speaker 2: about what's going to happen to them. You know. Actually

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Speaker 2: in my book, I bring this up as just you know,

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Speaker 2: how the job really influenced me in a negative way

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Speaker 2: from a parenting standpoint, where you know, my my first wife,

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Speaker 2: you know, she was very strong Christian and had this

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Speaker 2: church function at night inside this gymnasium and she you know,

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Speaker 2: is crowded and we get there and she lets the

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Speaker 2: kids just go run off where we can't see them.

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Speaker 2: And these are at the time, the kids are you know,

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Speaker 2: roughly four to seven years old, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing? And you know, her response was,

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Speaker 2: it's okay, they're all Christians here. And my response was

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Speaker 2: BTK was president of his church. Yeah, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: And that's that's kind of that mentality that I've developed.

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Speaker 2: I can even remember my youngest daughter getting you know,

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Speaker 2: mad at something and then a huff, you know, she

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Speaker 2: ran out of the house and she was younger, and

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Speaker 2: I was driving home and my wife called me. So

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Speaker 2: I'm in my work vehicle. It's an unmarked you know,

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Speaker 2: four Tours, but I had light bars in the in

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Speaker 2: the windshield, you know, so it's obvious cop car. Then

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Speaker 2: I go and I see her, you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: moping around this park. When I just sit and I

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Speaker 2: watch her for a period of time, see what she's doing,

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Speaker 2: and then I get out, you know, and I'm in

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Speaker 2: my at this point in time, I had you know,

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Speaker 2: button down shirt on and as I looked very formal,

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Speaker 2: had my gun on my hip and I just gesture

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Speaker 2: in the car and that there was no questions asked,

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Speaker 2: you know, So that is kind of the tough thing,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's also kind of fun where you know.

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Speaker 2: Of course, now I've got kids that are at dating age,

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Speaker 2: and you know, with my youngest daughter, you know, I

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Speaker 2: think any boy that she brings home is going to

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Speaker 2: be a little intimidated, and I will let them be intimidated.

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Speaker 1: I think that's excellent, not so much for your daughter,

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Speaker 1: but for you certainly to be able to intimidate the boys.

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Speaker 1: I think my parenting style is because I'm a journalist.

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Speaker 1: It drives my girls crazy because they're not dating, they're thirteen,

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Speaker 1: but they are posting on social media a lot, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm scared to death that they're going to

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Speaker 1: post something that is going to come back to haunt

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Speaker 1: them in even just a few years from now.

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Speaker 2: Yep, it's going to stay out there forever if it

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Speaker 2: goes out into the you know, the the online space

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this story coming up. It sort

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Speaker 1: of ties into what we're talking about, which is that

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Speaker 1: fear that comes through when you have the jobs that

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Speaker 1: you and I have. So let's set the scene. So

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Speaker 1: start with where we are. This is nineteen twenty England

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Speaker 1: and it's a couple of years after World War One,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of women who are entering the workplace,

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Speaker 1: including a woman named Irene Munro. She is seventeen at

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Speaker 1: the time, and she is a typist. She's described as

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Speaker 1: a good worker, but she's been having some troubles lately.

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Speaker 1: People are saying she's becoming more and more aloof and

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Speaker 1: a little jaded about all of the repetitive work that

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Speaker 1: she has to do as a typist. And she decides

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Speaker 1: that she needs a vacation, and this aloofness and this

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Speaker 1: feeling of maybe putting some distance between her and her

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Speaker 1: friends and family, I think plays into this because she's

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Speaker 1: really looking to connect to people, it seems clear to me.

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Speaker 1: And so she ends up going to Eastbourne, which is

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Speaker 1: the largest city in Sussex and it's got a large

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Speaker 1: population about sixty two thousand in the nineteen twenties, and

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Speaker 1: she just says, I want to go on the beach,

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Speaker 1: I want to read a book and just have some

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Speaker 1: time to myself. This is August sixteenth, it's the peak

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Speaker 1: as you can imagine, of summer holiday season, and she

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Speaker 1: just sounds like a very whimsical traveler. She shows up

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Speaker 1: to Eastbourne with no room reservations, even though we're in

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Speaker 1: the height of summer, and she just says, I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to kind of let fate take me where I go.

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Speaker 1: She arrives to the seaside town and now she's struggling

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Speaker 1: to find a reasonably priced accommodation. She's walking around and

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Speaker 1: she's checking in with boarding houses, and she finally sees

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Speaker 1: a shorefront house who's run by a woman named Ada Winniat.

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Speaker 1: Ada says, I have rooms available, but just not tonight,

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Speaker 1: so she actually puts down a deposit. I ring puts

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Speaker 1: down a little bit of a deposit and says, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I will come for the next two nights, but I'll

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Speaker 1: find somewhere else to stay. And Ada says, well, I

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Speaker 1: have a recommendation. There's a friend of mine owns a cottage.

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Speaker 1: You can stay there for the night and then come

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Speaker 1: back over here tomorrow. This sounds great to Irene. So

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Speaker 1: Irene is wonderfully sending her friend's postcards so we can

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Speaker 1: keep up with her. And she sends a postcard to

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Speaker 1: her best friend just after she arrived in Eastbourne, and

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Speaker 1: she says, I'm lonely. I really wish I could make

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Speaker 1: some friends here. I thought it was a great idea

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Speaker 1: for me to go to the beach by myself, but

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Speaker 1: maybe not so much. I'm going to do the best

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Speaker 1: I can, and maybe I'll be able to make some

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Speaker 1: new friends, you know, for the few days that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be here, She said, I'm not in love

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Speaker 1: with Eastbourne yet, but of course I haven't been here

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Speaker 1: a day yet, and I really can't think about it.

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Speaker 1: I just wish you were here. She had asked her

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Speaker 1: friends to come with her on the seaside trip, and

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Speaker 1: nobody could come, so she, you know, is there by herself.

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Speaker 1: So the next day she's at this cottage. The next

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Speaker 1: day she goes to the beach and she reads. In

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, it was very customary for women to

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Speaker 1: wear modest clothing. She didn't even wear a swimsuit. She

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Speaker 1: was wearing this bright green coat, which would become important

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Speaker 1: later on. It's so bright and so green on the

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Speaker 1: beach that it's very distinctive. So we are able to

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Speaker 1: have a lot of people who have spotted her through

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Speaker 1: various times when all this is happening. That afternoon she

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Speaker 1: leaves the beach. She goes to have lunch by herself.

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Speaker 1: She goes shopping. There's a shop employee who says, can

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Speaker 1: I help you, and she says, I'm looking for a

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Speaker 1: gift for an uncle I have back home, and he

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Speaker 1: points her to a gold pencil case and she says, okay,

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Speaker 1: well this sounds great. Later on, we're going to find

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Speaker 1: out that this is actually meant for her married boss,

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Speaker 1: mister Maxwell. It is not meant for any kind of uncle.

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Speaker 1: We don't know a lot of information yet about whether

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Speaker 1: or not this is a platonic relationship or a romantic relationship.

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Speaker 1: But she has decided, you know, she wants to get

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Speaker 1: this pencil case, which is also important. Here's where things

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Speaker 1: get a little dicey for Irene. She leaves the shop

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Speaker 1: and it looks like she has bumped into two local

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Speaker 1: men outside of a nearby pub, and by some accounts,

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Speaker 1: the younger of the two men is seen at some

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Speaker 1: point with his arm wrapped around Irene's waist, and people

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Speaker 1: spot them all over town. Over the next day, they're

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Speaker 1: visiting tourist sites, they're at scenic lookouts, and of course

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Speaker 1: it's because she's attractive and she's wearing this bright green

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Speaker 1: jacket that people put all of this together later on.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting is that she is writing her friends, you know,

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Speaker 1: over the next couple of days, and she never mentions

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Speaker 1: any of these men. So as you know, Irene is

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Speaker 1: going to end up dead, and these two men, it

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Speaker 1: seems clear that they're going to be involved somehow. So

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Speaker 1: if I'm going to now ask you, this seems like

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Speaker 1: a really bad setup. You've got a young woman who's seventeen,

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Speaker 1: who is you know, on her own, and she's in

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Speaker 1: a town and seems to be sort of just wandering around,

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Speaker 1: and then she encounters these two men in one of

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Speaker 1: scene with his arm around her waist. Part of this

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Speaker 1: story really is how we put two and two together

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Speaker 1: and who these people are and whether or not they're

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Speaker 1: really guilty. But we do have these two strangers who

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Speaker 1: she makes fast friends with, and I think that it

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Speaker 1: is tempting to say why would she do any of this?

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Speaker 1: But we never blame the victim.

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Speaker 2: And this is what is, you know, so frustrating, is

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Speaker 2: everybody should have the right to go and enjoy their lives,

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Speaker 2: and this is where you have these offenders that take

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Speaker 2: advantage of those situations. Irene has isolated herself, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's communicating via postcards. But as these men are getting

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Speaker 2: to know her, they're probably recognizing, you know, nobody's really

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Speaker 2: keeping tabs on her. I'm assuming at some point one

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Speaker 2: or both of them end up taking advantage of her isolation.

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Speaker 2: But it just shows that this type of behavior by

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Speaker 2: these offenders was occurring in the nineteen twenties, just as

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Speaker 2: it is today. But I bet people weren't as aware

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Speaker 2: of this occurring back then.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, and it would not have been

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Speaker 1: particularly unusual for a woman of her age to go

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Speaker 1: off on her own. I mean, a seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: though just seems so incredibly young for me to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, going and essentially staying at hostels. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like but this was something that was not uncommon, and

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Speaker 1: her parents were not alarmed, nor does it seem like

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Speaker 1: they warned her to not do this. She is gaining independence,

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Speaker 1: you know, she has a job, she's not in school,

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Speaker 1: she's a typist, and so she feels like she has

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Speaker 1: every right to go and enjoy a holiday on her own.

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Speaker 1: So after she spends the night at that cottage, she

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Speaker 1: does check into the boarding house with missus Winniat and

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Speaker 1: missus WINNIEA sees her, and it had been a few

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Speaker 1: days since she had been staying with her, and she

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Speaker 1: is comfortable enough with Ada to say, this is what

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Speaker 1: my plans are, this is where I'm going, just to

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Speaker 1: let you know. So a few days after she arrived,

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Speaker 1: this is August nineteenth of nineteen twenty, Irene tells Ada

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Speaker 1: that she's going to go visit a suburb of Eastbourne

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Speaker 1: called Hampden Park. And it's mid afternoon, two forty five,

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Speaker 1: So now we're going to start tracking her movements, which

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Speaker 1: is why I'm going to start bringing up times. There

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Speaker 1: are two men doing maintenance work on the house on

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Speaker 1: Ada's house, and they watch Irene in her customary very

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Speaker 1: bright green coat leave around three o'clock, so two forty five,

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Speaker 1: she tells Ada, I'm leaving. She heads out the door

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Speaker 1: with her jacket at three o'clock. Sometime between three and four,

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Speaker 1: another person spots this attractive woman in a green jacket

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Speaker 1: and she's waiting at a bus stop, and around four

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Speaker 1: o'clock two men hop off of the bus and they

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Speaker 1: greet her there. So we're presuming that these are the

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Speaker 1: two men that she believes have become her friends over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of days. The two men and Irene

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Speaker 1: walk off towards the shorefront, and that's the last time

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Speaker 1: anyone saw Irene Monroe live. This seems right. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out who these two men are and what

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Speaker 1: they want with Irene.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the shoreline that they're going to, is this

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Speaker 2: a very populated area?

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Speaker 1: Well, where she is eventually located is not. And I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you about that in a minute, because I have

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Speaker 1: photos for you. Again, the benefit of doing something in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and even more contemporary is we do

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Speaker 1: have photos. So I'll show you what ends up happening

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Speaker 1: after that. But let's just say right now it is

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Speaker 1: fairly remote, not completely remote, but remote enough where there

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Speaker 1: would be some sort of privacy expected there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And obviously these witnesses are being found because Irene

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Speaker 2: stands out, you know, with the jacket, her looks. Do

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Speaker 2: these witnesses say anything about the men, are you know,

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Speaker 2: any distinctive characteristics, any type of descriptions. Do we have

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Speaker 2: that information at this point in time?

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Speaker 1: Not right now, but we will once they discover where

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Speaker 1: Irene is. So Ada is concerned because her tenant, her

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Speaker 1: short term tenant, has not returned home. Not enough concern

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Speaker 1: to alert the police. This isn't her daughter, but she

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Speaker 1: is keeping an eye out on her because she's a

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Speaker 1: young woman and she's on her own. So the next day,

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Speaker 1: this is Friday, about three thirty, so this is twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours after Ada has seen her and the witness

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Speaker 1: had seen her, you know, walk with two men who

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Speaker 1: got off a bus. There's a family that's vacationing in

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Speaker 1: the area and they make this terrible discovery when they're

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Speaker 1: setting up a picnic. It's a woman's body and we're

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Speaker 1: presuming it's Irene. She's been partially buried in an area

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Speaker 1: known the Crumbles, which is about two miles long and

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Speaker 1: one mile wide. It's a man made stretch of pebbles

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Speaker 1: that are set in mud that connects Eastbourne with the

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Speaker 1: town of Walsend, and so there are a few buildings.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about if this is remote. There are

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Speaker 1: a few buildings, and there's some railroad tracks and there's

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Speaker 1: a place for CP planes to take off from the water.

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Speaker 1: But this is not someplace where you're going to go

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Speaker 1: necessarily vacation. Even though we have a family who is

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Speaker 1: there setting up a picnic, it's just not a huge

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Speaker 1: vacation front. So let me show you what this area

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Speaker 1: looks like where the body is found. And I will

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Speaker 1: say that she goes unidentified for quite a long time.

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Speaker 1: So this is the Crumbles railway after they discover this body.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you tell listeners what you're looking at here? Besides,

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of men in hats and jackets

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Speaker 1: and suits.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this area crumbles what I you know. The

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Speaker 2: prominent feature, of course, is this railroad track that is

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Speaker 2: right in the middle of this sea of pebbles. There's

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Speaker 2: absolutely really no brush, no trees. I can see to

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Speaker 2: the horizon buildings in the background. Possibly they almost look

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Speaker 2: like those types of big, you know, cranes that are

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Speaker 2: at poor for shipping containers, even though in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenties I'm not sure those existed, but that's what those

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Speaker 2: structures look like. And then it appears that we have

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Speaker 2: on the order of about twenty men dressed in dark suits,

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Speaker 2: all wearing hats, all walking along the railroad track together

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Speaker 2: as a group, walking away from the bandage point of

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Speaker 2: the camera.

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Speaker 1: Let me show you a different angle, Paul. So we've

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Speaker 1: got this sort of on the ground level angle of

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Speaker 1: the area. This is a wider shot in all zoom

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Speaker 1: in from a different angle, from a lower angle of

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Speaker 1: this space, and then I have a very close up

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Speaker 1: shot of where her body was found.

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Speaker 2: Right, So now you know with this image the railroad

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Speaker 2: track again is the prominent feature. But now the photographer is,

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Speaker 2: I believe, standing on the other side of the railroad

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Speaker 2: track facing a direction I can't without seeing where the

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Speaker 2: sun's coming from or any real shadows, I can't tell

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Speaker 2: you know the direction. But what's interesting is is now

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Speaker 2: there's a berm of these pebbles on the other side

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Speaker 2: of the railroad track, and so from that direction, somebody

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Speaker 2: on the other side of the berm possibly would not

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Speaker 2: be able to see because in the previous photo it

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Speaker 2: just looked everything's wide open as far as you can see.

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Speaker 2: But now there is a change in height of this pebbles.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a hill or if it's

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Speaker 2: just if it goes up to a different elevation and

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Speaker 2: it is flat where these men are standing on top

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Speaker 2: of the berm, but it does appear to provide because

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Speaker 2: I'm looking, I'm evaluating this as could there have been

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Speaker 2: some witnesses to have seen anything that happened to Irene.

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Speaker 2: And initially it was like, well, it's wide open. If

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Speaker 2: anybody's out there, they would have seen something happening, unless

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Speaker 2: it was in the middle of the night. But now

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Speaker 2: I can see where there could be some obstruction of

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Speaker 2: vision as a result of this change in elevation.

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Speaker 1: And we don't know when this happened. Again, there's a

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Speaker 1: twenty four hour gap as of now until the police

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Speaker 1: start talking to witnesses. There is an overnight section, there's

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Speaker 1: an early morning section, so we don't know when this happened.

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Speaker 1: But let me scroll down and you can see the

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Speaker 1: close up. So we're going to hear later on that

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Speaker 1: this was a four foot deep grave. I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if you could call it a grave a hole,

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Speaker 1: And you know, they could see part of her body

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Speaker 1: sticking out from it. And this is a intrepid cop

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming down there trying to demonstrate where and what

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Speaker 1: position her body was found. And I can tell you

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about the position of her body.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted you to see, you know, the remoteness.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is incredible. You're right, it looks like

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Speaker 1: it's the railroad track and that's pretty much it. With

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Speaker 1: the exception of whatever we see in the distance.

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Speaker 2: You said something that really surprises me. You said that

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Speaker 2: this grave that she was buried in was four feet deep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, does it look like that. I wonder if they're

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Speaker 1: counting the what did you call it a berm? I

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Speaker 1: wonder if they're counting the berm as part of the grave.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, because at least where the man who I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: he's laying down on top of the pebbles to replicate,

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Speaker 2: you know, where Irene's body is found. It must be

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Speaker 2: because graves typically, unless somebody is very well equipped with

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Speaker 2: equipment to dig deep graves in soil, to dig a

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Speaker 2: grave in these pebbles that are four feet deep. And

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Speaker 2: you imagine these pebbles, you know, you pull them out

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Speaker 2: of a hole, they're going to want to slide back

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Speaker 2: down into the hole. This is not a quick and

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Speaker 2: easy process. So my sense is that she probably was

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Speaker 2: more covered with the pebbles to possibly obscure her. But

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Speaker 2: that's why she was close enough to the surface where

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Speaker 2: parts of her body were able to be observed.

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Speaker 1: Right, And this is man made, So there's a layer

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Speaker 1: of mud underneath these pebbles. When the pebbles stop, there's mud,

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Speaker 1: So right, it seems like two really impossible things to

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Speaker 1: be able to dig through to really cover up somebody's body. Well,

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Speaker 1: so let me tell you about what the position her

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Speaker 1: body was in and all of that. So the family

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Speaker 1: who was picnicking for god knows what reason, I have

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Speaker 1: no idea why they would picnic here. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like a great place to picnic, but thank goodness they did,

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Speaker 1: because they were the ones who discovered her body. They

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Speaker 1: discover her after seeing one foot exposed sticking out from

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Speaker 1: underneath the pebbles from the ground, and they call the police, who,

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Speaker 1: as we have just discussed, arrive in droves to the

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Speaker 1: scene and they find a woman lying on her left side,

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Speaker 1: wearing a bright green coat and covered with the gravel.

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Speaker 1: To them, this seems like a hasty burial, and we've

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Speaker 1: already talked about maybe they didn't intend for it to

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Speaker 1: be hasty, but you have no choice with all of this,

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Speaker 1: you know, pebbles and gravel and mud underneath and all

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Speaker 1: of that. So she's lying on her side, and it

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Speaker 1: just sounds like at some point it was just a

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Speaker 1: dump and cover as best we can sort of situation.

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Speaker 1: There's a large amount of blood that's lost and then

380
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Speaker 1: is soaked deep into the rocks and underneath the pebbles

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Speaker 1: that are under her body. There are loose teeth found nearby,

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Speaker 1: aside from missing a shoe on her right leg. Her

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Speaker 1: dress is pushed upwards, but she's fully dressed, so she's

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Speaker 1: not missing panties. I know, we know that doesn't mean anything,

385
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Speaker 1: but they seem to think that this was not a

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. The woman's face is severely battered and bruised,

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Speaker 1: and a couple of feet from the body there's a

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Speaker 1: large stone that stained with blood, and the police think

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Speaker 1: that this was what the murder weapon was. She had

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Speaker 1: some extensive brain injuries which they believe led to her death,

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Speaker 1: broken jaw, and then of course missing teeth. She is unrecognizable.

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Speaker 1: But honestly, even if she were nobody in this town,

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Speaker 1: with the exception of Ada, would be able to identify

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Speaker 1: what her real name is at all, sure.

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Speaker 2: You know, and they were at such a disadvantage in

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Speaker 2: terms of databases to be able to identify irene you know,

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Speaker 2: either through fingerprints or you know, even if there had

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Speaker 2: been teletype service. We already and now somebody reports are missing.

399
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Speaker 2: Several days later, I imagine you're not getting a lot

400
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Speaker 2: of information over to this jurisdiction out there where her

401
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Speaker 2: body was found.

402
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Speaker 1: Right, And so the police are steymied and they start

403
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Speaker 1: with her body and trying to figure out when this

404
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Speaker 1: even happened. So they transport her body from the scene

405
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Speaker 1: to a mortuary where a physician examines her. He says,

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Speaker 1: based on the rigor that she died between twelve and

407
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Speaker 1: twenty four hours earlier, which would tally with what we know,

408
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Speaker 1: which is the last time anybody that we know as

409
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Speaker 1: of right now saw her was twenty four hours before.

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Speaker 1: He said, based on the temperature of her body, it

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Speaker 1: was cold to the touch. But we also know that

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Speaker 1: liver temperature tests were I don't believe developed until a

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Speaker 1: little bit later. I know during Heinrich's time in the

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Speaker 1: thirties and forties they were using liver temperature. But right

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Speaker 1: now I think it was just let's touch her and

416
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Speaker 1: see how cold she was. But does that sound right

417
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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's an important feature that pathologists will pay attention to. Now, rigor.

419
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Speaker 2: You know, this is where at death the muscles tighten up,

420
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Speaker 2: you know, and the initially starts in the peripheral the

421
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: smaller muscles like in the hands, and then ultimately takes

422
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: the larger muscles in the whole body, and then it

423
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Speaker 2: reverses itself over time as the muscle tissues start to

424
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Speaker 2: break down. The presence of rigor generally does indicate that

425
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Speaker 2: the person has died within a relatively short period of

426
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Speaker 2: time of the body being observed. Right whoever's making the

427
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Speaker 2: observation of the rigor, whether it be out at the

428
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Speaker 2: crime scene or in the morgue, you have to factor

429
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Speaker 2: in that time difference. But also, you know, that's where

430
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Speaker 2: it's important that at least he is observing rigor. That

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Speaker 2: tells me, yes, that is consistent with the witness statements

432
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: saying that she was seen with two men the day before,

433
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: the afternoon before. Now, rigor is just like anything with

434
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: the death process is going to be how long it lasts,

435
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: how fast it develops, how fast it goes away, is

436
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: all going to be dependent upon the environmental conditions. So

437
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: you know, this is summertime in August, you know, so

438
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: I'm imagining at least it's warmer in the afternoon, but

439
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: then overnight, I imagine this location probably gets fairly cool. You know,

440
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: her body in essence is refrigerated, and that's where Now

441
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 2: her body temperature is also a variable that's impacted by

442
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: environmental conditions. So all of these observations are important, but

443
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: the best that you can do is give a very

444
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 2: broad window, like this pathologist or this mortician did twelve

445
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: to twenty four hours. That's probably as narrow a window

446
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: that this individual could provide as an opinion.

447
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: Well, once they established when they think she died, and

448
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: remember we don't have an ID, so this seems pretty

449
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: accurate for us. They don't know who this woman is,

450
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: and they don't know that the last time her landlady

451
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: saw he was twenty four hours ago. They start examining

452
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: the body much more closely, and they discover that she

453
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: has some small wounds, which the media sometimes describes as

454
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: puncture wounds near her temple and near her lip. So

455
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: at first they think it's a knife, but now they

456
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: think it is a stick like object. And this comes

457
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: into play later on. So we can either think of

458
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: this as some sort of torture or she is being

459
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: hit by something pointy at least at some point. And

460
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: I know that both of these pieces of evidence, if

461
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: either of these things happened it would be important when

462
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: we're profiling the person who might have done this.

463
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean there's several things. Of course, there

464
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: could have been another weapon used that is in a

465
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: shape that could produce these wounds. Now, and they're saying

466
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: it looks like the point at end of a stick.

467
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: That would kind of tell me, Okay, these wounds must

468
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: have any irregular type shape to them, versus let's say

469
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: she is getting these punk tate wounds or stab wounds

470
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: from an ice pick type weapon, or do we have

471
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: an offender that is maybe wearing jewelry as rings on

472
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 2: and these rings could potentially produce these types of injuries.

473
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: Right now, it's just it's important that, Okay, we have

474
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 2: injuries consistent with this rock that's present at the scene.

475
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: But then there's something else that is possibly impacting her

476
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: temple and her lips. Is this an indication of two

477
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: offenders who are using two different weapons on her, or

478
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: one offender that opts to use two different weapons consecutively

479
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: or in sequence.

480
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: And they don't know yet, they're still gathering information on

481
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: her body. They do notice that there are scratches on

482
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: one of her thighs, on the inner thigh again, This

483
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: could be a lot of different things. When they say scratches,

484
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: it could have been something that she had gotten previously.

485
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: It could be during attempted sexual assault. It could have

486
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: been because she was killed just a few feet away

487
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: and dragged and deposited in this grave. And maybe she

488
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: got scratches that way from a stick on the ground.

489
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if this really tells us anything, but

490
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: there is damage to her body other than the blunt

491
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: force trauma that happened to her head.

492
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: Sure, and even though she is found fully dressed, and

493
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: I know I've addressed that multiple times in the past

494
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: in terms of do not rely upon that to dismiss

495
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: the fact that any type of sexual activity occurred. But

496
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: we also don't know what kind of time window the

497
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: offenders spent with Irene leading up to this. It is

498
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: possible that there had been a sexual assault prior at

499
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: a different location or even in this location, and she

500
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: was allowed to redress and then she's killed. That happens,

501
00:27:47,960 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: and that happens more frequently than what people realize.

502
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: Now we're going to start talking about victimology incorrectly. I

503
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: believe the doctor who is examining her body notes a

504
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: couple of things. He says, number one, that this unidentified

505
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: woman was not a virgin. I'm assuming he's looking at

506
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: the hymen right and saying it's broken. We also know

507
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: that's bullshit, right. Can we talk a little bit about that.

508
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 2: Well to a point. Obviously, the hymen is something that

509
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 2: is a membrane that in younger girls is present and

510
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: was often used incorrectly to determine whether or not there

511
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: had been sexual activity by that woman if it had

512
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: been torn or broken. The best I think that the

513
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: hymen provides is that if it's recently damage and actively bleeding,

514
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: then that demonstrates penetration had occurred recently. However, the absence

515
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: of the high or a hymen that has been opened

516
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: at some prior point has been disproven to determine whether

517
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: or not there had been any type of sexual activity

518
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: or penetration. We know that that structure can change as

519
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: a girl and woman matures.

520
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: And I still hear that myth, and so I think

521
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: it's important, much like the well, there's no way sexual

522
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: assault happened in this case because of X, Y and Z,

523
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 1: that it's important for us to talk about that. And

524
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: I know that I repeat that caveat over and over again.

525
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: They say it's not a sexual assault, but we know differently,

526
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to keep saying it because i

527
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: think it's important.

528
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: That's good, you know, And I'm sure there's some medical

529
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: professionals that can go into much greater detail than I can.

530
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: I'm I know what I know just enough to be

531
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: able to understand how I can utilize that medical aspect

532
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: to assess what is going on in case. But there

533
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: are people out there that have high levels of expertise

534
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: in assessing woman's anatomy related to sexual assault.

535
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: So we are moving from inaccurate victimology to just plain

536
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: stupid as far as I'm concerned, and sexist. So Irene

537
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: had apparently had her pubic hair shaved off, and we

538
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: can talk about how maybe she wasn't the one who

539
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: did that. We don't know what happened during this assault,

540
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: but let's assume that Irene was the one who made

541
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: this decision. This would have been unusual in the nineteen twenties.

542
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: This leads this jerk of a physician to believe that

543
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: she was bisexual. There is nothing wrong with being bisexual.

544
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: There was in the nineteen twenties, and this was considered

545
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: disparaging to her character, and it framed her in a

546
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: way that made her an unsympathetic victim in the media.

547
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: It was pretty disgusting. This is framing at the time

548
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: Jane Doe as someone who was promiscuous. Why that matters,

549
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it did matter to the media.

550
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: Obviously from a social standpoint. It's very disturbing that they

551
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: would have painted her in a negative light because of this. Now,

552
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: from my perspective in assessing the case, I want to know,

553
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: was there evidence that her pubic care had been shaved recently,

554
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: like within the last twelve hours. As if the offenders

555
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: did that, that's very significant. And if they had done that,

556
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: then I would expect some evidence of shaved pubic hares

557
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: to be present on her clothing, et cetera. Because that's

558
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: showing a level of intent, motivation, etc. By the offenders.

559
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: Well, I would say this, I'm going to introduce someone

560
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: who I have a lot of respect for, who I

561
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: think would have picked up on all of that. Do

562
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: you know who Bernard Spillsbury is. I'm assuming you might

563
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: have heard of him. You ever heard of him?

564
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: I have heard of him. I'm drawing a blank in

565
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: terms of where he was from and what his role was,

566
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: but I most certainly know that name.

567
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: So he was a forensic pathologist in England and I

568
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: have his biography. It's wonderful. A buddy of mine and

569
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: gave it to me, and he solved so many cases.

570
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: He was this legendary forensic pathologist. And they bring him

571
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: in because I'm assuming a young white woman found in

572
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: a remote area in the middle of tourist season on

573
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: a very popular kind of well to do area of

574
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: England was alarming to the local community. And so they

575
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: bring in Bernard's Spillsbury, which was a really big deal.

576
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: And thank goodness he's here because he does a thorough job.

577
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: It might not be a pol hole's twenty twenty three job,

578
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: but as capable as you could be in nineteen twenty.

579
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: So this is what at the very beginning of this

580
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: Spillsbury says, this is what I think. I think she

581
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: was alive. This is terrifying to me. She was alive

582
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: for up to half an hour after this beating. Let

583
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 1: me ask you this, how would he know that? How

584
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: would you know that that this is someone who had

585
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: a severe beating? And then I guess bled out is

586
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: it the amount of blood or where it's located.

587
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: There's several factors. When you have let's say you are

588
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: beaten like Irene was beaten, and you have it sounds

589
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: like depressed skull fractures, you have hemorrhaging in the brain.

590
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: She's also got a broken jaw. She's got a lot

591
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: of blood in her oral cavity. One of the first

592
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: things that I note when I'm assessing blood patterns around

593
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,959
Speaker 2: a victim is looking for expiratory patterns as a victim

594
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: is continuing to breathe even though they may be unconscious,

595
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: but they still they have respiration, and they will start

596
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: having this natural reflex to cough as the blood is

597
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 2: filling up inside their throat or they're breathing in and

598
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: out and spraying blood. And the more that that is present,

599
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: the more breathing that they've done over time, So that

600
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: can give you some temporal indications on how long the

601
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: person was still breathing. But also you know the pathologist

602
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: is going to be noting, okay, what brain structures were affected.

603
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: As we've talked about before, it's it really is what

604
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: is damaged that dictates are these injuries fatal? Are are

605
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: they survivable or are they immediately fatal, et cetera. And

606
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: so he's probably assessing her injuries are not immediately fatal.

607
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 2: He's noting the amount of blood that probably pooled underneath her,

608
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: and that takes time as the heart continues to beat

609
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 2: and you have these open wounds. If the heart stops

610
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: beating and you don't have gravity causing blood to flow

611
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: out of the body, now you know there's not going

612
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: to be as much blood at the scene. It's still

613
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: going to pool to a point. But the longer the

614
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: person's heart is beating with open wounds, the more blood

615
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: that comes out. In addition to what I've talked about

616
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: with any type of respiratory indicators coming out of the

617
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: oral cavity of hers or mouth that has been filled

618
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: up with blood due to the direct injuries and possibly

619
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging within the skull itself.

620
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: So let me tell you what Spillsbury said. He said

621
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: this in his findings. He's referring to a shingle, which

622
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: I think is some type of a piece of equipment

623
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: or something to do with the railroad tracks that is

624
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: found on her body, and it could have been something

625
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: that was weighing her down or something that they intended

626
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: to cover her body with even more. But when I

627
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: say shingle, that's what we're referring to. So he says,

628
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 1: injuries to the left face consistent with a single blow

629
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: by the blood stained stone if the head was resting

630
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: on the shingle on the right side, accounting for right injuries.

631
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: So tell me about that, because there's more, But tell

632
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: me about that bit.

633
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what he is seeing is that whatever damage

634
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: to the left side of her face is consistent with

635
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: the stone impacting her face. Now he's indicating that she's

636
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: laying on her Let's say, her head is laying on

637
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: its right side, pressed up against this shingle, which almost

638
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: sounds like it could be like a railroad tie, something

639
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: that is a solid object. When the force of the

640
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: blow by the stone impacts her on the left side,

641
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: her right head is also against this hard object, and

642
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: that force ends up basically causing injuries to her right side.

643
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 2: This is contra coop type of injuries. It's like when

644
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: you get a blow and a concussion type of situation

645
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: where you might be hit on one side of your head,

646
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: but the other side of the brain ends up getting

647
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: hit because that force transfers. That's what it sounds like

648
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: he's describing. As she gets hit with the stone on

649
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: the left side, and as a result of her right

650
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: side at that moment also being against this hard shingle object,

651
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: it's getting some injuries like lacerations or bruisings or other

652
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: types of abrasions going on.

653
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: So this is not necessarily she's being hit on both

654
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: sides of her head. There's another impact happening that is

655
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: not caused by the killer. But something on the ground

656
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: or something in the grave. Is that right?

657
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 2: That's what I'm taking away from that. And it dawns

658
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: on me because earlier described that on her right temple

659
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: and right lip, that she had these punk Tate type

660
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: of injuries. I mean, if this shingle thing is like

661
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: a railroad tie which you've got wood that's irregular, it's possible.

662
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: I wonder these punk a type injuries was a feature

663
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: that's on the shingle.

664
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: It could be. And now he wants to talk about

665
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: the amount of blood loss, because that's where as you said,

666
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: that's where we come across how slowly she died. And

667
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to say this word totally wrong, and you

668
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: can correct me from the amount of blood extravascated. Extravasated

669
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: Does that sound right?

670
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: Oh, exvasculated?

671
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: That's it? Okay, from the amount and we're never going

672
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: to do that. Audience can forget about that.

673
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: It's basically, yeah, the amount of blood that has flowed

674
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: out of the body.

675
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: That was a very long explanation that I gave for

676
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: something short. So he says it's a slow rate of

677
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: bleeding and shock. Based on the amount of blood, he

678
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: thinks she survived for a short time after might have

679
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: been half an hour, but she would be deeply unconscious

680
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: of this the whole time, right once she was hit.

681
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: He thinks the death might have been accelerated by the

682
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: weight of this railroad tie type thing, this shingle on

683
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: her body, compressing her chest, so something on her body,

684
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: and then the death may have been due to combined

685
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: effects of shock and the loss of blood and exphyxia.

686
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: Does that all sound right to you?

687
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds perfectly in line with how he's describing

688
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: what's on her body. Here, she's got these blows with

689
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: this stone. It doesn't sound like you know, sometimes bludgeonings,

690
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 2: and not to be too gruesome, but you really see

691
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: with large, massive objects as the weapon. You see heads

692
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 2: being crushed, doesn't sound like that's what's happening here. She's

693
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: probably got some depressed fractures to her facial bones, possibly

694
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: to her skull, and we know she's got the broken jaw,

695
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: but it's not something that causes immediate death. But this shingle,

696
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: it's got to be a railroad tie, must have heft

697
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: to it, you know. And the offenders, after she's laying

698
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 2: there and has been beaten, they've placed this heavier object

699
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: on top of her it sounds like on top of

700
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 2: her torso, her upper body, and it must have enough

701
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: weight where the pathologists are not. Spillsbury is saying, yeah,

702
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 2: this would probably restrict her breathing, you know, and that's

703
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: where the asphyxia comes in. So as she's laying there

704
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: unconscious with obvious brain damage and is bleeding out, her

705
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: body is also being prevented from breathing normally due to

706
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: the weight on her chest.

707
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: Well, now we're going to get back to are we

708
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: going to be able to identify the body? And Irene

709
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: Munroe's temporary boarding house landlord, who is Ada Winnie It

710
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 1: is reading the newspaper and sees there's a Jane Doe,

711
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: and because she's been concerned about Irene, she's expecting there

712
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: to be a big problem here. Because she hasn't seen

713
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: Irene for a few days. She alerts the police. The

714
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: police come down and say, can you identify the body?

715
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: And one of the saddest things is she couldn't because

716
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: her face was so badly beaten. She couldn't positively identify

717
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: her except for that green jacket. Yeah, So the police

718
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: make the confirmation. She meets all the other criteria, age

719
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: and the other descriptions, and they reach out to Irene's

720
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: mother and then they start asking for tips. Now we

721
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: know who this woman was. She was in for just

722
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: a few days, and she met a couple of men,

723
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: is what they are now starting to hear from witnesses

724
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: in this area. There's a man named Frederick Wells who

725
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: says that that night that we think she was murdered.

726
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: Frederick says that he saw three people, two men and

727
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: one woman walking in the area that night, and there

728
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: were a lot of other people who said they saw

729
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: a woman who was described as someone who looked a

730
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 1: lot like Irene walking with two men, but she seemed

731
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: very happy. She was not in distress. They were not

732
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: dragging her around. She wasn't drunk that we know of.

733
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: She just seemed to have made two new friends, and

734
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: this was a commitment. I mean, they had been hanging

735
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: out for several days together. So then I try to think, Okay,

736
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: let's Paul remove the sexual assault aspect. I know that

737
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: statistically that's what would have happened. But let's just assume

738
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: that there is no sexual assault. What are the other

739
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: scenarios that could happen. Could it be robbery or just

740
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: an argument. This seems like one big blow with a

741
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: rock and not maybe premeditated.

742
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think all motives are on the table.

743
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: It strikes me that she had purchased that what was

744
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: it a pencil container? Yeah, I don't know if that

745
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: was a very expensive item or if it looked like

746
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: a very expensive item. There's nothing that you've told me

747
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: about her personal possessions. That you have a purse which

748
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 2: you have had cash inside that purse. Of course, if

749
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: any of that is missing, then you see that there

750
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: is a financial motive that's going on. Most certainly there

751
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 2: could have been just some sort of interpersonal argument that

752
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: could have resulted in violence. You know, part of where

753
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: we are at right now is there's an assumption that

754
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: the two men that she was with are her killers,

755
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: you know, and of course they would be suspects. But

756
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: if they're interviewed and they say, well, we left her,

757
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: you know, she was alive when we left, you know,

758
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: and now you have the possibility that she ran into

759
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: another bad guy, and it strikes me she's you know,

760
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: her body is right next to Rairo tracks, you know,

761
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 2: is there a possibility a train came through stopped, so

762
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: you know, somebody got off, saw her, maybe was an

763
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: attempt at sexual assault, and then hopped back on the

764
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: train and took off. You know, there's so many options

765
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: at this point in terms of what's going on, both

766
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: from motive as well as suspects. But of course number

767
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: one priority for investigation at this point in time is

768
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 2: identifying those two men because they were the last ones

769
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: with her, so that puts information they possess closer in

770
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: time to her death.

771
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: Well, as you saw by the number of men in

772
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: dark suits and hats from that photo, they put every

773
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: person possible on the case. This was very alarming to

774
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: a tourist town. They talked to her family in Brighton

775
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: they talked to the boss who she supposedly bought this

776
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: gold pencil case for everybody's accounted for. You know, they

777
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 1: weren't sure if he traveled down here and it was

778
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: a crime of passion. He has an alibi. All of

779
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: the people in her life back in Brighton and London

780
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: have been cross off the list. So now we are

781
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: focusing in on these two strange men, so there are

782
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: more witnesses coming forward. Again, this green jacket is a

783
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: huge clue because it makes her stand out. Now they're

784
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 1: trying to create kind of a composite of these two men,

785
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: and the consensus is that one's older than the other.

786
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: One who's younger, is closer to age to Irene. And

787
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: remember she's seventeen, so this is a very young man

788
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: and then an older man. They're both wearing gray suits,

789
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: and one of them had a yellow walking stick that

790
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: was very distinct. So a couple of pieces of evidence

791
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: in this case that are helpful because they're distinct. This

792
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: is a stick that's so distinct it has a dog's

793
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: face on I'm assuming on the handle, you know, at

794
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: one end. And people remember that this was unusual and

795
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: the police remember that there were pokemarks on her. So

796
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: they're thinking, when they find the man with a walking stick,

797
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: we may be looking at one of two weapons, maybe

798
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: one hitter with it rock and the other one was

799
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: hitting her with this walking stick. Does that make sense

800
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: based on I know I gave you a vague description

801
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: of what these marks look like, but does that make sense?

802
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: There's a distinct possibility this walking stick is a bludgeoning weapon,

803
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: and it has this decorative end that probably has irregular

804
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 2: protrusions on it. It also possibly those could have contributed

805
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 2: to these unusual punk tate marks on the right side

806
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: of her temple and her lip. But then you also

807
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: have to consider that the shaft of this weapon, the

808
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 2: walking end, the bottom of this thing, as also possibly

809
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 2: being used. And so it's critical to get this walking

810
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: stick and evaluate it. You know, first it's going to

811
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 2: be the obvious. Is their blood is their hair to

812
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: indicate that it had been used? And if not, is

813
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: there any aspect about it that is consistent and unique

814
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 2: to be able to match up with these what sound

815
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: like unusually shaped injuries on her temple.

816
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: Well, once the police hear about this walking stick, they

817
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: become immediately even more alarmed and want to find out

818
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: who these two men are. So Frederick Wells, who is

819
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: the man who had initially said, listen, I've seen these

820
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: two guys with this woman in the green jacket, he

821
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: reaches out to the police and says, can I meet

822
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: again with a detective just to sort of go over things.

823
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: I'm really concerned about finding the killer of this woman.

824
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: So a detective meets Frederick Wells in the town and

825
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: they're standing there talking and as they're talking, Frederick Wells

826
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: kind of swings around and he sees a man walking

827
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: with numerous women, several women, and he says, that's the guy.

828
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,479
Speaker 1: That's one of them that I saw. And we now

829
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: have to identify one of the men, who is Jack Field.

830
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: And then we find out quickly that there's another man

831
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: named William Gray and they fit the description. So this

832
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: is dumb luck. I know that this is part of

833
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: police work, but sometimes you just get lucky. And this

834
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,439
Speaker 1: was sixty two thousand people in this area at the time,

835
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: so this is not a tiny little town where you're

836
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: just going to run across someone. This was luck that

837
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: Frederick Wells said, oh boy, that's one of the guys

838
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: that I saw.

839
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I kind of wonder, even though it's a

840
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: talent of sixty two thousand, you know, is this witness

841
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 2: and are these two men? You know, everybody has acre

842
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: points where they spend you know, blocks of their time

843
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: during the day, and maybe their acre points every day

844
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: are in the same spot.

845
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: What's interesting is their background. So these two men tally

846
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 1: with the descriptions of what we've heard. Jackfield is nineteen

847
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: years old and he had served in the Royal Navy

848
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: during World War One. He had tried to desert multiple times.

849
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: He was currently unemployed, and he lived with the other man,

850
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: William Gray, who was the older man, twenty eight years old.

851
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: He was born in South Africa. He also served in

852
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: the war. He was also unemployed. William Gray, the older man,

853
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: was married, but both men loved picking up vacationing women

854
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes they both robbed tourists. So now I'm wondering

855
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: if the motive is coming a little bit more into

856
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: play here. These are two guys who we've talked about

857
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: this quite a lot. Just because these are all things

858
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: that are checked off does not mean definitively that these

859
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: are our people. We're just gathering more kind of circumstantial

860
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: evidence and a little bit of profiling to figure out

861
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: do they meet the criteria.

862
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, as soon as you are described their

863
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: mo of you know, picking up, you know, women that

864
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 2: are on vacation and then ultimately robbing them. The movie

865
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 2: Taken came, you know into.

866
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: My head, right, I never saw that.

867
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's yeah, that's that's a great movie. You know,

868
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: it's it's I have a particular set of skills, but

869
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 2: you know, here you have an essence con men and

870
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: they're probably decent looking. So these women, you know, are

871
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: attracted to them. They're charming enough to where their guards

872
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 2: are let down, and then in order to rob them.

873
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: They're not robbing them in the middle of the street

874
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 2: with all these people around. They come up with some

875
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 2: sort of ruse that the woman is comfortable enough with

876
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: in order to isolate them in order to physically take

877
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: whatever these women have that they want.

878
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: I don't normally show you photos of the people. I mean,

879
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: every once in a while I will. I just don't

880
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: think it's applicable how beautiful she is or how handsome.

881
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: I am going to show you though, a photo of

882
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: the two men, because they are handsome and I could

883
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: see if you are a young woman who's a tourist,

884
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: and you're kind of hanging out in a small town.

885
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: How you could just say, Oh, William and Jack are

886
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: pretty good looking, and they look smart in their suits

887
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: and handsome, and I could see how they could be grifters.

888
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: Of course, this photo I'm imagining this photo is taken

889
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 2: after rest during court, so they're probably, you know, putting

890
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: on their best presentation. But they look like they take

891
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,959
Speaker 2: care of themselves. You know, their hair has groomed, they've

892
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: got nice clothes on. I could see where somebody like

893
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: Irene would probably feel fairly comfortable with these two men.

894
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So when the police interview William and Jack, they

895
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: have conflicting stories. It seems like they're trying to line

896
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: up an alibi with each other, but they're both forgetting things.

897
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: One says, oh, I don't know anything about a pub,

898
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 1: and the other one says, I don't remember anything about

899
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: a bus. So it's conflicting. The police are suspicious. They

900
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: call in witnesses. No one can pick these guys out

901
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: of a lineup. We know now that witness identification can

902
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: be inherently unreliable, but I don't think they believed that

903
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, when a man's handshake was good enough,

904
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: I think they believed what people said.

905
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and back then, most certainly these eyewitnesses if they

906
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: positively identified somebody, and it would be done in a

907
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 2: way that would be very biased and prejudicial against the

908
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 2: person who is being selected. The law enforcement would put

909
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: a lot of weight as well as prosecution would put

910
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: a lot of weight on that eyewitness identification. And as

911
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: you mentioned, we know that that is not as reliable

912
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: as what it used to be thought. This is where

913
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: you know now it's okay, so you don't have witnesses

914
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: being able to pick them up. However, their interviews are

915
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 2: going to be so critical. You know, did they interview

916
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: these two men separately or were they interviewing them on

917
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: this show street and these guys are just kind of

918
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 2: playing off each other and trying to align their statements

919
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: to make sure the minimizes their apparent culpability in the crime.

920
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 2: And then physical evidence. Do investigators start taking a look

921
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: at their clothing, do search warrants on their house to

922
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: look to see is there any bloody clothing inside their

923
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 2: house that could be matched back to Irene, which, of course,

924
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: back in nineteen twenties. You're really not doing any type

925
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: of biological testing. But if you find, let's say, some

926
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 2: pants that have some blood spatter on the lower parts,

927
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: that would be consistent with somebody who's receiving multiple blows

928
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: from a stone to Irene's head.

929
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: They have none of that. What they have is this.

930
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: They go to the house where these two guys live.

931
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: They find gray suits, They find a yellow walking stick

932
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: with the decorative dog's head on one end, which witnesses

933
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: say they saw these two men with her.

934
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 2: That's quite good, even though they you don't have anybody

935
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: picking these men out. The fact that you have such

936
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: a unique and distinctive item that had previously been described

937
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 2: separate from these men, and then you find that item. Yep,

938
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: there's a lot of weight that I put on that.

939
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: Well, And if they were smart, they would have said, oh, yeah,

940
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: that was us. We saw her, but then we left

941
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: her and that's it. And then that explains away because

942
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 1: there's no blood. There's no blood in no hair on

943
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: the suits and the walking stick. But the fact that

944
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: they say they don't even know her, I think is

945
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: what's alarming to police. They tried to get an alibi

946
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: with a female friend who flatly denied that she had

947
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: seen them that Thursday night. But there were two barmaids

948
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: at a pub who say that it looks like in

949
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: the middle of the night after Irene was murdered. We

950
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: think they were spending lots of money on alcohol, and

951
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: on alcohol for women that they had never had before,

952
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: because remember they're both out of a job.

953
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: We don't know how much money Irene had with her

954
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: when she went on this trip, do we.

955
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 1: We don't know. We know she had the gold case.

956
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: We know she had some money, but more than they

957
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: would have had, so enough to buy drinks. You know,

958
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: they're not out there buying designer suits. But they are

959
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 1: spending more money on alcohol than they normally would. Okay,

960
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: and you have to assume she's on vacation. She has

961
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,439
Speaker 1: to have money on her Again, She's seen with them

962
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: over a few day periods, so this is a commitment.

963
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: If robbery is their only real motive here, they are

964
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: spending some time with her. It sounds like a significant

965
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: amount of time with nothing happening that we know, because

966
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 1: she looked happy as people saw her with these two

967
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: men going off toward the crumbles that night. Nobody is

968
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: alarmed by this woman with these two men.

969
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 2: And that's part of their assessment, you know, in terms

970
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: of what they feel they need to do in order

971
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: to make her feel comfortable enough to where they can

972
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: get her at a location where it minimizes their risk

973
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 2: of being seen and to be able to you know,

974
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: steal what they want to steal from her. The question,

975
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 2: of course, is is if this is something that they're

976
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 2: routinely doing, they're letting their women victims, you know, live afterwards,

977
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 2: Why did they kill Irene?

978
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: We'll see what happens. Let me tell you what happens.

979
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 1: Because they both are arrested, they go on trial, and

980
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: they both seem to have a defense attorney who is

981
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: trying to sully Irene's reputation. Remember the whole bisexual, promiscuous thing.

982
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: That's the only thing that they can really hang their

983
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: hats on here with. The trial began in December of

984
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, and prosecutors painted Irene as just an innocent

985
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: victim seventeen years old, and she was naive and became

986
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: friends with these two low lives who had been robbing

987
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: tourists and womanizing and all of this stuff. The defense says,

988
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, listen, she was a questionable character. My guys

989
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: have problems, but this is really not a woman they

990
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: would have associated with, which is ridiculous. Eventually, under the

991
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: pressure of the trial, it seems like because the men

992
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: had such bad reputations, it was very clear to Field

993
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: and Gray that they were likely to get convicted. So

994
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: I think the police come to them and as the

995
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: trial goes on, they're filling the pressure and they go

996
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: to both of them and say, listen, you know, why

997
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: don't you tell us information? And they end up turning

998
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: on each other. The story is that on the evening

999
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: of her murder, the men had escorted her out to

1000
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: the Crumbles with the intention of robbing her. Okay, once

1001
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: they were isolated and no one was around, they tried

1002
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: to rob her, and it sounds like she fought back

1003
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: and the younger man, jack Field, bashed her in the

1004
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: face with his walking stick and she fell backwards and

1005
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,959
Speaker 1: was screaming in a panic. The other man, William Gray,

1006
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: took a rock and beat her to death with it.

1007
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: They say that this was just sort of a spur

1008
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: of the moment. If she had just given us the

1009
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: pencil box and any money that she had, this would

1010
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: have been over and we would have just left her

1011
00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: out there. But they end up killing her, and in

1012
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: a panic, they dig this grave. They drop her inside,

1013
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: and they cover up with gravel. They did not know.

1014
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: They say that one of her feet was exposed. They

1015
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: took her wallet, they took one of her rings, and

1016
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 1: they never found it, and then they went to the pub.

1017
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: Wow.

1018
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: So what happens, though, is neither one will take responsibility.

1019
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: They'll both say I helped cover it up, but they

1020
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: blame the other one for the actual murder.

1021
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: He's the one that used the rock to kill her. Basically,

1022
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 2: they're trying to pin that, but they're both are both

1023
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 2: their statements in this same line where they're saying, we

1024
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 2: took her out there to rob her, and then it

1025
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: was the other one that actually, you know, bludgeoned her

1026
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 2: with the rock.

1027
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: You got it consistent? Yes, their statements are consistent, except

1028
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: who held the rock. And it doesn't matter because they

1029
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 1: both got a guilty verdict and eventually their appeals were

1030
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: denied and the next year they were both hanged. So

1031
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: all of that for some rings and some money and

1032
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 1: a night out of drinking.

1033
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: Did they ever find the pencil case by chance.

1034
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: It looks like they sold it, is what my understanding

1035
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: is that they eventually sold it, but that she had

1036
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 1: enough money for them to hit the pub after that

1037
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 1: and not the ring though they never found one of

1038
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: her rings that they stole.

1039
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: Because that's you know, I'm thinking about this case during

1040
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 2: this era, and in terms of physical evidence. If law

1041
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 2: enforcement was able to recover any of the stolen property,

1042
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: that of course is hugely significant. Even if you don't

1043
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: have the confession, You've got, well, they possess items that

1044
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 2: they could place back on Irene prior to her homicide.

1045
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: Their confession sounds like it is spot on in terms

1046
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 2: of what happened to Irene out there by the railroad tracks.

1047
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 2: You know, this is where evaluating details of a confession

1048
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 2: you want to assess it relative to what the evidence.

1049
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: You know, what the pathologists is saying, what the crime

1050
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: scene investigation is showing. Does that add up to show

1051
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: that yes, they have that the killer would possess about

1052
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 2: what happened to her in that location and everything. You know,

1053
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 2: even though it's very superficial during how you're recounting it

1054
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: from their confession standpoint, but everything is lining up to

1055
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 2: where it gives me great confidence they got the right guys.

1056
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is where a confession makes sense and

1057
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't. We talk about that false confessions are

1058
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: well known. People are in prison when they shouldn't be

1059
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: from false confessions. But we're right. When you line it

1060
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: up with the physical evidence, then it all makes sense

1061
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: and it goes from a circumstantial case to something that's

1062
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: more rock solid, and it sounds like that's what happened

1063
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: in this case. So to me, this was a prime

1064
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: example of all of the things lining up the way

1065
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: that we're supposed to people with a prior history. You know,

1066
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 1: lots of witnesses who were reliable, distinct evidence that they

1067
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: could locate and not only identify the victim, but identify

1068
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: one of the killers. This confession, and then the circumstantial

1069
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: evidence or the physical evidence that backs it all up.

1070
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: So it's sort of the perfect case to me, and

1071
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: we don't get very many of those.

1072
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 2: And I think it's important to point out is that

1073
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 2: in essence, you have these two predators. Now, usually when

1074
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: I use the term predator, i'm talking about somebody that

1075
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: is fantasy motivated, it's sexually motivated. In terms of the

1076
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 2: types of crimes but here you have two men who

1077
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 2: have identified a victim pool that they can benefit from financially,

1078
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 2: and they developed a scheme to be able to do

1079
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 2: this over and over and over again. And then ultimately,

1080
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: you know, because of Irene fighting back. You know, the

1081
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: men reacted violently and took her life. But you know,

1082
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 2: this is where you see this in the financial aspect.

1083
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 2: There are financial predators and they develop, whether it's somebody

1084
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 2: who's going to you know, hang out as you know,

1085
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 2: drunks come out of the bar, and then if they see,

1086
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: you know, somebody stumble down and who's isolated themselves trying

1087
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 2: to find where their car's at, and they go and

1088
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: mug them. And they do that over and over again

1089
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 2: because it's easy. They have identified a victim pool, they've

1090
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,959
Speaker 2: identified that they can get away with this crime over

1091
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 2: and over again and benefit from it.

1092
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: I agree. I like this case just because I think

1093
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: it is straightforward and it lays out well. This was

1094
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: not a particularly complicated case. It was just great to

1095
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: be able to look at all of this and go, boy,

1096
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: this actually makes sense. There's no doubt in my mind.

1097
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: So every once in a while I'm going to give

1098
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: you one just to throw you a bone pull just

1099
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: to throw your bone. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you.

1100
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you one of those cases. So next

1101
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: week I will bring you something that is going to

1102
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: be a lot stickier and more complicated, and it's going

1103
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: to confuse you. So you should enjoy this while you can.

1104
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to sharpen my brain for

1105
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:53,959
Speaker 2: next week.

1106
01:00:54,000 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: Then good Thanks. This has been an exactly right production.

1107
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot

1108
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1109
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1110
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1111
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scuilacci.

1112
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1113
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1114
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1115
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1116
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: Varied Bones pod.

1117
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1118
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1119
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1120
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1121
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now