Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one
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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
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Speaker 3: Trudio Muski to a noise to intro.
Speaker 4: How do we do that? That's why you get bad?
Speaker 1: Can hear them?
Speaker 3: Okay? Okay, yeah, yeah, here we are. That's that's the introduction.
Speaker 3: That's all you're getting, and you will be grateful for it.
Speaker 3: It's it's me. It's Cherine Hi, Serene Hi, James Hi, Tarina.
Speaker 3: What are we Are we doing vegetables today? Are we
Speaker 3: doing genocide? Which part of the vegetable genoside spectrum wheel.
Speaker 4: I feel like we're closer to vegetable than genocide, but
Speaker 4: you can argue the opposite as well, because I get
Speaker 4: eat it alive by these things.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think we're kind of in the middle here. I
Speaker 4: think it's a good even middle.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we've really split the difference. Look at us go. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's right. It's things to eat. Shrene live today is
Speaker 3: flesh eating bacteria day. It's not does not have a
Speaker 3: flesh eating bacteria of the episode I thought we were doing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'd like to surprise you sometimes, just see how you act.
Speaker 3: We're doing mosquitos, actually, shreen mosquitos yep, yep. Little guys,
Speaker 3: little friendly guys.
Speaker 4: Who they're not friendly and they're always little, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of them are absolute chunks. Yeah, I've seen
Speaker 3: some big dogs recently. Did you know the mosquito shreene
Speaker 3: is the most deadly animal in the world.
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an animal. Yeah, I mean it's in the
Speaker 3: animal kingdom, right, I suppose it's insect nuisance.
Speaker 4: No, it's not insect on animals and nuisance. I guess
Speaker 4: I couldn't realize it was considered the most deadly animal.
Speaker 4: Why is that just from like valeria?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and all the other diseases at vectors. Right, it
Speaker 3: can do parasites, bacteria, and viruses. So it's really like
Speaker 3: a triple threat when you can get like chicken gun. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Dane gay, I've got a whole list of them.
Speaker 4: Why are they still around?
Speaker 3: That is an interesting question, Shereed.
Speaker 4: I've always wondered that, like bees have benefits, like they
Speaker 4: make they're cute little guys, and they make honey, and
Speaker 4: they just want to pollinate around.
Speaker 3: Lots of mosquitoes do too. Lots of them also, or
Speaker 3: they don't make honey. Lots of species of mosquito just
Speaker 3: feed of flowers. They're not out there to get you.
Speaker 3: It is just the lady mosquitoes of certain species. What
Speaker 3: was the lady insects man? The queen bee?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the black widow.
Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, it's it's true. Yeah, it's I
Speaker 3: guess maybe they're a matriarchal society, you know, and.
Speaker 4: They're like, yeah, I guess technically a spider is not insect, right,
Speaker 4: it's like a rat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wants to correct me on the reddits. Yeah,
Speaker 3: please please post your genus and species stuff on the
Speaker 3: on the reddit. I would love that. So, yeah, mosquito
Speaker 3: say they stacking some bondies about three quarters of a
Speaker 3: million people a year in fact, which is quite a
Speaker 3: lot of people for then if you, yeah.
Speaker 4: I guess we're closure to the genocide in on the spectrum.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Sadly, I know the mosquitoes don't
Speaker 3: have so much agency, so I don't feel like they're
Speaker 3: quite as like evil. You know, the word of course
Speaker 3: a moscow no moscuite is a fly in Spanish.
Speaker 4: And then of course, like why I don't know that, Yeah,
Speaker 4: might know that, you know, I don't know that.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna look this up. Mosquitoes or origin word. Well, now,
Speaker 3: moscuite is a fly. Ito is a diminutive ending, so
Speaker 3: it means like a little fly, oh, little fly, yeah,
Speaker 3: a fly lit.
Speaker 4: And there's also a Spanish word that means long legged.
Speaker 3: Hold on from mosquito.
Speaker 4: The Spanish called the mosquitoes mosquetos, and the Native Hispanic
Speaker 4: Americans call them zenkudos. Mosquito is Spanish or Portuguese, and
Speaker 4: it means a little fly, while zen kudos is a
Speaker 4: Spanish word that means long legged.
Speaker 3: Ah, okay, there we go and learning the etymology today
Speaker 3: here and then I didn't have that. I just had
Speaker 3: a little fly based on it being a little fly
Speaker 3: in Spanish. Yeah, I like the long legged. Well we
Speaker 3: have daddy long legs, I guess, but he's a mosquito. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So technically, mosquitoes are actually micro predators, which is kind
Speaker 3: of a fun word. I feel like I've met some
Speaker 3: micro predators in my time that they were not mosquitoes,
Speaker 3: and that is because some of them thrive by drinking
Speaker 3: human blood. Tell me about it. Yeah, that is the reason,
Speaker 3: sharing that you have encountered mosquito, So I want to
Speaker 3: I want to talk first about their life cycle and
Speaker 3: then about their their predation on charene So mosquito. Say,
Speaker 3: the eggs in stagnant water. That's water that's not moving, right,
Speaker 3: I know some things, Jane. Okay, okay, not everyone knows
Speaker 3: about stagnant water, Charine. There are listeners too. They might
Speaker 3: not know. So their eggs hatch into lava, and the
Speaker 3: lava become puber These stages are all aquatic, right, They
Speaker 3: all happen in the stagnant water, right, And then the
Speaker 3: adult mosquito hatches from the pupa and it hatches on
Speaker 3: the surface and then it flies off and it sucks
Speaker 3: up your evening.
Speaker 4: I don't realize that you had anything to do with water.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why, like, did this not happen in La
Speaker 3: a few years ago? They this council was like sending
Speaker 3: people around San Diego to like scope out your garden
Speaker 3: to see if you had standing water. Right, if that
Speaker 3: did happen, I have no memory during arden peak. Yeah,
Speaker 3: let's see. Uh maybe that's why, like it was peaked
Speaker 3: like Zeka panic.
Speaker 4: Oh that makes sense that that would happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it does. And we definitely get them, like
Speaker 3: I have to put a little over side like a
Speaker 3: thing that kills the eggs into my chicken water. If
Speaker 3: I'm having a big standing thing of chicken water, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I try and have smaller and refresh it more frequently now.
Speaker 3: But yeah, you definitely have to be careful of stagnant water.
Speaker 3: And as we'll see, like one of the main ways
Speaker 3: to control them is like limiting the amount of stagnant
Speaker 3: water for some species only the females that a species
Speaker 3: are the bloodsuckers, and in some cases they don't need
Speaker 3: the blood and in other cases to lay their eggs
Speaker 3: they need to have a blood meal as it's called,
Speaker 3: which is which is a nice words unsettling. Okay. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So the mosquitoes that are vectors for human diseases, so
Speaker 3: they're like the transportation vector vehicle for the disease between
Speaker 3: one person and another those are the guys who often
Speaker 3: need a little blood meal to lay their eggs. They
Speaker 3: don't only attack people, actually, they sort of have a
Speaker 3: preferred species, but in a pinch, they'll go after anything
Speaker 3: with blood. And I've seen them get really thick on
Speaker 3: cattle and stuff in the summer, or horses.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can imagine that, yeah, because cows just sit there.
Speaker 3: I mean, if they're being mosquito attacked, they get pissed off,
Speaker 3: but there's only so much they can do. In some cases,
Speaker 3: I think it's horses. Equinumcephalitis is spread by mosquitos, so
Speaker 3: they can actually get it. They can get diseases from
Speaker 3: terrible little guys, and they can like literally die from
Speaker 3: being overbitten. And if they get like completely swarmed on wow, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's like if they're unable to get away from them.
Speaker 3: Because if you have a water tank, right, and then
Speaker 3: mosquitos are breeding in the tank, it's where you want
Speaker 3: to keep that tank moving like right.
Speaker 4: So it's not stagnant water, because stagnant water means it's
Speaker 4: not moving.
Speaker 3: There. You go look at that actually and putting knowledge
Speaker 3: into action. Let that be like one of those Guo
Speaker 3: linga things. Where you learn a word then use it
Speaker 3: in a sentence exactly. Yeah, all I do is use
Speaker 3: that word.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So yeah, musket has come out adorn or dusk,
Speaker 3: which is to say they are crepuscular, another word that
Speaker 3: everyone already knows.
Speaker 4: I mean, I did learn that word. I did like
Speaker 4: an audiobook and I had to look this word up,
Speaker 4: and so I know what it means only because of that.
Speaker 4: But it's a very interesting word. I will say it is,
Speaker 4: isn't It sounds like creepy, Like I would have no
Speaker 4: idea what it meant if I didn't look it up,
Speaker 4: Like there's nothing that clues me in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, pusculate. It sounds like yeah, because like diurnal nocturnal,
Speaker 3: you can kind of if you know one, you can
Speaker 3: work out. But crepusculos coming out of fucking left field.
Speaker 4: That's creps.
Speaker 3: Does that mean?
Speaker 6: Which?
Speaker 3: Remind me?
Speaker 4: It means that they're active don and dust or that
Speaker 4: they're eating it.
Speaker 3: I think it means they, Yeah, they are. I'm not
Speaker 3: actually sure if it means it active or they're eating
Speaker 3: That's a good question.
Speaker 4: Because I feel like I've heard cats are also described
Speaker 4: as that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, cats are definitely that way. Animal appearing active in
Speaker 3: Twilight active.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's very poetic. The first animal I see here
Speaker 4: as a cat, Yeah, lion, American woodcock, firefly, short eared owl.
Speaker 3: Cool. Yeah, they real the pantheon and animals, So they
Speaker 3: do the feeding at doorn a dusk and they actually
Speaker 3: use compounds in your exhale breast to sniff you out,
Speaker 3: so they are they are hunting for people. They specifically
Speaker 3: prefer to feed on people who have type O blood,
Speaker 3: an abundance of skin bacteria, high body heat, and pregnant women. Hmm,
Speaker 3: if you fit one or all of those criteria, I
Speaker 3: guess there's that because people like Definitely, I feel like
Speaker 3: I have type of blood. Yeah, me too. I feel
Speaker 3: like I'm victimized like more than most people by the
Speaker 3: mosquito and they choose me. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I feel like me and my mom are both typo
Speaker 4: and we get you know, live, So that makes sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they somehow they can smell that on you.
Speaker 4: I'm always cold, though, so I don't think I have
Speaker 4: high body heat. Not always cold, but I can. I
Speaker 4: don't know I have better circulation, not pregnant. I guess
Speaker 4: I must have an abundance of skin bay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's got to be a skin bacteria and ensuring
Speaker 3: by process of deduction.
Speaker 4: No, but typo makes sense. I think like that is enough.
Speaker 3: I suppose. Yeah, they because when it's a lot of them,
Speaker 3: you know, and when one of them starts feeding on you,
Speaker 3: that's going to trigger more of them to come feeding
Speaker 3: on you.
Speaker 4: How because they're like, look at this, this idiot, let's
Speaker 4: go feed off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, look at this. It is delicious blood that
Speaker 3: is TYPEO. Yeah got it? Yeah, yum yum. And then
Speaker 3: they're giving off their little feeding sort of vibes. And
Speaker 3: then i'll mosquitoes come, which can be useful to trap them.
Speaker 3: But that's a fair point. The trapping of mosquitoes, as
Speaker 3: I learned when I was doing this, very fucking interesting.
Speaker 4: Actually, ooh, okay, tell me more. Actually maybe not now,
Speaker 4: but whenever you get to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well we'll get to it, tune. They have a
Speaker 3: very interesting set of mouth parts and including the labium,
Speaker 3: which is like a gutter shaped tube mouth tube, I guess,
Speaker 3: and it's super sharp and they can use it to
Speaker 3: saw through your skin painlessly, so you never that's why
Speaker 3: you don't feel.
Speaker 4: So that's that's the needle looking thing. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 4: the little thing they poke you with.
Speaker 3: Then well they do that, then they have little needle
Speaker 3: looking things that kind of that it contained within the
Speaker 3: gutter shape that they used to suck out your blood. Gross.
Speaker 3: Their saliva stops your blood from clotting, and it prevents
Speaker 3: vascular constriction in the area where they're biting, so they
Speaker 3: can get a little bit extra blood before it clots.
Speaker 3: I guess some people can become desensitized to their bites
Speaker 3: over time. If you're getting bit and all the time,
Speaker 3: others can become more sensitive and then increased sensitivity is
Speaker 3: known as Sketos syndrome Skeeter syndrome. Look up and what
Speaker 3: it looks like. Because I'm very sensitive to them. Okay,
Speaker 3: maybe we've got two diagnosed es in one episode. We've
Speaker 3: got skin bacteria and Sketa syndrome.
Speaker 4: I don't know what I need to have to have
Speaker 4: Skeeter syndrome, but I will say I'm extreme insensitive to
Speaker 4: mosquito bites. When I get bitten, they become gigantic.
Speaker 3: I won't even know.
Speaker 4: I'll won't itch them because I know not to at
Speaker 4: this point, but I'll get these like gigantic welts essentially
Speaker 4: and they're bright pink, and then over the course of
Speaker 4: like a week or something, and they become bright red
Speaker 4: and they look like someone put paint on my leg.
Speaker 4: It's like it's a crazy color of red. And then
Speaker 4: when they eventually do stop itching, I'll have that welt
Speaker 4: there in that red mark for like.
Speaker 3: Months, damn months. It's like it becomes like this weird scar. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you could be a syndrome, I guess so.
Speaker 4: I will say when I was a kid in Syria,
Speaker 4: when we would go visit there, they have so many
Speaker 4: mesquita I got you alive because we'd go there in
Speaker 4: the summer too. But there was one time I got
Speaker 4: bit in on my eyelid like this, that sucks, and
Speaker 4: so I genuinely couldn't open my eye for like a
Speaker 4: week and a half.
Speaker 3: That was the worst one. I think I'm like that
Speaker 3: with bee stings, like they they swell up like crazy.
Speaker 3: Like I don't think I'm like anaphylactic, but a couple
Speaker 3: of times. One time I was racing in Laguna Seca,
Speaker 3: which is like a car racing track in Monterey, and
Speaker 3: I'm racing along, and I guess I'm riding along with
Speaker 3: my mouth open. It's just just like you know, thriving
Speaker 3: and a mosquito flew in and bit me. I do
Speaker 3: a mosquito a bee, and my whole face just was
Speaker 3: like in your mouth. Yeah, it was crazy. It was bad, Shane, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was fucked. One had just stung me before, like
Speaker 3: the extent which I swell at when beasting me. I
Speaker 3: got stung in the leg on a training ride and
Speaker 3: I had to upgrade to like exit shorts because like
Speaker 3: my thigh just become like yeah, and then one got
Speaker 3: me in the mouth.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Shit, it was a bad day. I had epipain, I
Speaker 3: had I think I had some ivy bedded drill at
Speaker 3: some point. Oh yeah, it was fucking well.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm glad you're not in a phylactic, but
Speaker 4: it's pretty close, I guess.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's better you can get one time I got.
Speaker 3: I got stung in a face when I was trying
Speaker 3: to go to lecture as well, and like walked in
Speaker 3: with like elephant man face and my stream Well we're
Speaker 3: just like, dude, it's.
Speaker 4: Like those photos or videos you see of like animals
Speaker 4: like a dog at a to b and their faces
Speaker 4: like gigantic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is uh it's dogs. Do you love
Speaker 3: to eat peas?
Speaker 4: I will say, I don't know if you've ever done
Speaker 4: twenty three and me, but I did it years and
Speaker 4: years ago for another show I was on and on
Speaker 4: twenty three and meters. You can select if you want,
Speaker 4: like health traits as well as like ancestral traits or
Speaker 4: whatever like yeah, and on that it said I am
Speaker 4: more likely to get a bitten by mosquitoes they gay.
Speaker 4: Maybe it just need your blood type. But I didn't
Speaker 4: give them my blood and even my spit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's crazy. Maybe that's something
Speaker 3: in your book time. I don't know. We've just discovered
Speaker 3: that Shream is on a eugenics podcast.
Speaker 4: No, it was as for my podcast that was about
Speaker 4: this is tea?
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, some real problematic folks do love twenty three
Speaker 3: in me. It's very funny when the white nationalists gone
Speaker 3: twenty three in me and find out how they get upsets. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I love that and it is always fun to see.
Speaker 3: So the real problem with mosquitos is not just that
Speaker 3: they make you a trip, but they're vectors for disease.
Speaker 3: They infect seven hundred million people a year with their
Speaker 3: little bitey mouths. They can spread all kinds of diseases,
Speaker 3: including viruses, parasites, and bacteria. Some of their greatest hits
Speaker 3: include yellow fever, Dangay malaria, Tuderimia zeka, chicken gunya, and
Speaker 3: West Nile virus. Speaking from experience, some of those are
Speaker 3: really shit and you are best avoiding all of those.
Speaker 3: That's going to be my advice to you as a doctor.
Speaker 3: In one European history, it really fucking sucks to get
Speaker 3: some of these. I've had some diseases from some mosquitos,
Speaker 3: and I would not recommend. The mosquitoes don't actually get
Speaker 3: sick themselves, and it's like it's immune system can destroy
Speaker 3: the virus, but if it bites someone else and then
Speaker 3: bites you before it's immune system destroys the virus' genetic code,
Speaker 3: you can get sick and at some parasites. Apparently malaria
Speaker 3: can make mosquitoes more apt to go biting. It's interesting.
Speaker 3: It kind of turns them into zombie brain mosquitos. That's
Speaker 3: how I like to think about it. With malaria, which
Speaker 3: is kind of the main mosquito vector disease. I guess
Speaker 3: that we think about the parasite replicates in the liver
Speaker 3: cells and then moves about by the bloodstream. If you
Speaker 3: get bitten again, the blood could then pass that malaria
Speaker 3: to the next victim of the mosquito. I'm going on
Speaker 3: a trip soon for work. I'll probably be on it
Speaker 3: when you will hear this, And like, because people are
Speaker 3: traveling more, all these different diseases are becoming more common. Right,
Speaker 3: They're endemic in one area, and then people come from
Speaker 3: that area to another area, and then mosquitos are hopping
Speaker 3: around when they're in a new area. That then thats
Speaker 3: rereading in that area. So I was talking to some folks,
Speaker 3: like on the areas where migrants travel north, all the
Speaker 3: types of malaria are now currently present, which is great
Speaker 3: because you've got people from all over the world, right,
Speaker 3: and then the mosquitoes are hopping from someone from China
Speaker 3: to someone who's come from Mauritania and spreading their little
Speaker 3: mosquito vector diseases around. So that is bad treating. Do
Speaker 3: you know what else is bad?
Speaker 4: I'm sorry my mind was so blank. But ads are
Speaker 4: They're not bad. Ads are great. As are so.
Speaker 3: Good that we love them. Yay, ads, Okay, we're back,
Speaker 3: and I want to talk about how we stop the
Speaker 3: mosquito menace, please help. So I'm going to talk about
Speaker 3: eliminating them, and then I'm going to talk about some
Speaker 3: products and services actually that you can avail yourself off.
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this a lot recently for work reasons, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: doing some jungle travel in the next few months. So
Speaker 3: how do we prevent them from biting us? First of all,
Speaker 3: we can stop them having little useful pools of stagnant
Speaker 3: water to replicate in right Like, this means like, if
Speaker 3: you're like me, One of my friends referred to my
Speaker 3: my garden as a quote Alaska yard, which I think
Speaker 3: is a is a way of saying that it's a
Speaker 3: mess and there are lots of like car parts and
Speaker 3: like little little things that I am fixing soon, you know.
Speaker 3: And I guess having an Alaska yard is bad for
Speaker 3: the mosquitos, like especially things like tires, right Like, you know,
Speaker 3: if you have a big car tire, water pools in there,
Speaker 3: and they can have a little breed in there, same
Speaker 3: as buckets in marshy areas, what people do is they
Speaker 3: dig ditches that allows water to move so that water
Speaker 3: doesn't sit completely still, and then introducing certain fish. It
Speaker 3: can also help. Certain fish will eat, including the mosquito
Speaker 3: fish will eat the lava of the mosquito tilapia. Also
Speaker 3: this so like you can have a nice little if
Speaker 3: you're a person who eats fish, a nice still situation
Speaker 3: where you're reducing the disease burden. And also like providing
Speaker 3: a food source, which is something they're working on, that
Speaker 3: you can drain swamps. Of course, Donald Trump famously has
Speaker 3: drained the swamp right, yeah, I hear no malaria do
Speaker 3: you see anymore because of Donald Trump? But doing so
Speaker 3: obviously destroys an important habitat. Certainly you don't want to
Speaker 3: just be draining swamps. I was reading about something in
Speaker 3: Florida they do called rotational impound management, where they kind
Speaker 3: of allow water levels to fluctuate and then they have
Speaker 3: these clever little gates that mean that that other species
Speaker 3: like the fish and the crustaceans can move about that
Speaker 3: they're keeping them water moving to stop the little mosquito eggs.
Speaker 3: For me, the other way to do it is to
Speaker 3: try and kill them, right, So, there are various ways
Speaker 3: of doing that. One of them is to create an
Speaker 3: environment where they would want to lay their eggs, but
Speaker 3: then have that environment kill their eggs. So there are
Speaker 3: various at home ways of doing this, so like you
Speaker 3: could make a stagnant water thing and then blitz up
Speaker 3: the eggs or filter them out, or you can put
Speaker 3: things with oversides in there which to kill the eggs.
Speaker 3: Some of them also kill the mosquitos when they come
Speaker 3: and lay their eggs. You can also use their little
Speaker 3: hunting senses against them, right, so you can create an
Speaker 3: environment that attracts them either by seeming like a person
Speaker 3: or by seeming like a good place for them to breed,
Speaker 3: and then you can filter out the eggs from where
Speaker 3: they lay them right, or you can kill them when
Speaker 3: they come on in. There are things called lava sides.
Speaker 3: Maybe that's what I'm using with my chicken thing actually
Speaker 3: that destroy the lava. There are little bricks that you
Speaker 3: dissolve in your water. And there are some pretty low
Speaker 3: risk insecticides that you can use, and there are also
Speaker 3: higher risk in sexicides, or at least underpopular intexticides. And
Speaker 3: this is where a friend of the Cauzone media network
Speaker 3: DDT comes in. Are you familiar with DDT Treed?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 3: There are friends, Yeah, there are friends. We love DDT
Speaker 3: Big Appetize on pod We love them because until about
Speaker 3: sixty years ago, the US government love to DDT. Right
Speaker 3: it's an insecticide. They would put it in walls, in mattresses,
Speaker 3: people rubbed their pets with it. For a while, people
Speaker 3: thought they treated polio. They would even go through towns
Speaker 3: spraying down whole neighborhoods with DDT. Right, and people kind
Speaker 3: of became aware the DDT actually isn't a great idea
Speaker 3: both pre ecological and health reasons about sixty years ago,
Speaker 3: when Rachel Carson published a book called Silent Spring. It's
Speaker 3: kind of one of the foundational texts of the environmental movement, right,
Speaker 3: And I think people often credit like Rachel Carson with
Speaker 3: being the only person that that's not necessarily true. Like
Speaker 3: you can look at migrant farm workers actually and see
Speaker 3: that they have been for a long time being Like,
Speaker 3: I don't think it's great that you're dosing us with
Speaker 3: this pesticide all the time. Like maybe maybe stop spraying
Speaker 3: us with the DDT. You stopped playing the places. I
Speaker 3: want to quote a really good piece there in the
Speaker 3: New Republic on DDT. We now know that DDT causes
Speaker 3: tumors in myce and rats. It thins birds eggs to
Speaker 3: the point that mothers indiversally crushed their gestating offspring. It
Speaker 3: may disrupt bird sense of orientation, sending them out to
Speaker 3: see to die. It fundamentally alters the reproductive ordinance of
Speaker 3: a array of critters. It can poison animals even decades
Speaker 3: after spraying has ended. Further, a growing body of evidence
Speaker 3: has linked DT to numerous forms of cancer in humans,
Speaker 3: especially breast cancer. Studies have shown how the levels of
Speaker 3: DDT in our bodies track inequalities in human society. For instance,
Speaker 3: there are higher DDT levels in black people than in whites,
Speaker 3: and higher levels in poor people than in rich ones.
Speaker 4: Sounds like you reliant to me when you said that
Speaker 4: there are friends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like within the cool zone media network
Speaker 3: of making podcasts about evil shit DDT I think fits perfect.
Speaker 3: That's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. There's recently like a resurgence
Speaker 3: in I guess like people standing DDT again and then
Speaker 3: questioning some of it, like research around it. But we
Speaker 3: know for sure that it's ecologically damaging, and what we
Speaker 3: don't know is the consequences of wiping out a bunch
Speaker 3: of species in the ecosystem. So we probably don't want
Speaker 3: to use DDT. One thing we can do to kill
Speaker 3: them is they introduce predators, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 3: Tilapia is one predator. Dragonflies or another. I love a dragonfly.
Speaker 3: Big interesting flies. So like in Bikina Faso, they're working
Speaker 3: on a fungus with a mosquito specific neurotoxin, which is
Speaker 3: kind of cool. It can just grow and kill the mosquitos.
Speaker 3: The World Mosquito programs also trialing a bacteria that when
Speaker 3: mosquitos carry it, it amps up their immune system, so
Speaker 3: like they kill the virus or the parasite or whatever
Speaker 3: it is more quickly, so then they're less lightly to
Speaker 3: be vectors. There's also programs which introduce male mosquitos which
Speaker 3: are not able to have kids either they're sterile or
Speaker 3: they're breeding results in eggs that won't hatch, so that's
Speaker 3: kind of interesting control the population that way. And they
Speaker 3: also have these really interesting genetically modified mosquitos that need
Speaker 3: antibiotic tetracycline to grow. So they raise a batch in
Speaker 3: the lab and gives them the tetracycline that they need right,
Speaker 3: and then they let them out to breed and then
Speaker 3: when they read because they're young don't have tetracycline that
Speaker 3: they don't grow and they don't make it. It's really
Speaker 3: interesting to think about. Like some folks are advocating for
Speaker 3: completely eradicating them, just wiping them off the face of
Speaker 3: the planet, which would seem to have many benefits, right
Speaker 3: with all these diseases that they vector. I'm one of
Speaker 3: those people. Yeah, you're a mosquito genocider. I found it's
Speaker 3: interesting pieces that they're like a forest's defense mechanism against humans.
Speaker 3: Like if we look at that, like the ecosystem's.
Speaker 4: Way of being like get out of here, yeah.
Speaker 3: Like leaves this place alone. Yeah, which is interesting, But
Speaker 3: like I know, it's hard because the people who mostly
Speaker 3: die from mosquito vector diseases and the people with the
Speaker 3: least access to resources, right, right, Yeah, even things like
Speaker 3: you know, when you're very sick with some of these things,
Speaker 3: you need to be you know, kept hydrated and kept
Speaker 3: cool as your temperature gets up and stuff, and you
Speaker 3: don't have AC and you maybe you can't get an
Speaker 3: IV or whatever, like a very preventable death could occur,
Speaker 3: right and so right, it's hard, real hard for me
Speaker 3: sitting in America to be like, no, we shouldn't. But
Speaker 3: I guess I understand that argument. But if we go
Speaker 3: about it by fucking dousing whole areas and DDT again,
Speaker 3: then that's not great either, right, that can have it.
Speaker 3: That can then can have it downside. Anyone else has
Speaker 3: its downside, shrim It's having to pivot to add every
Speaker 3: ten to fifteen minutes in this job that we do.
Speaker 3: So we're going to do it now we're back. We
Speaker 3: are entering the final trimester of our podcast. And yeah,
Speaker 3: if you like that, I'd like to. I'd like to
Speaker 3: think of them as trimesters, the last slice of this
Speaker 3: little podcast cake for you guys. So I wanted to
Speaker 3: present some little strategies I like to use please when
Speaker 3: I am going to places where I am worried about
Speaker 3: being eaten alive by the little flies.
Speaker 4: Wait, okay, you see all these like di I like
Speaker 4: this is how track mosquito somewhere else. But like none
Speaker 4: of those have been mentioned, So is that all bullshit?
Speaker 3: What do they taught me through it? I don't know.
Speaker 4: I have to look it up, but I feel like
Speaker 4: I've seen like little things where it's like put this
Speaker 4: bucket of water here, or like put like lemon or
Speaker 4: honey or like something to attract like general insects and
Speaker 4: then mosquitos or like even like light can attract mosquitoes.
Speaker 4: They put like a light somewhere. But this sounds all
Speaker 4: like bullshit.
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, you can do that. You can even use
Speaker 3: a fan, right because I know it's very good flyers
Speaker 3: like they you can just kind of blow them away
Speaker 3: from you. So yeah, in terms of like small scale
Speaker 3: mosquito prevention, yeah, I'm going to get into some of those, Okay, cool.
Speaker 3: The most useful thing for me is mosquito in its actually,
Speaker 3: so like in the jungle, I like to sleep in
Speaker 3: a hammock. This one called the Jungle Nest. The Eagles
Speaker 3: Nest outfit is make that has like a built in
Speaker 3: mosquito net. That's nice. Yeah, it's really nice. Like I
Speaker 3: like it so I don't have to fuck around with
Speaker 3: like draping it and worry about like the little gaps,
Speaker 3: right yeah, And I use that a lot. I use
Speaker 3: a whole little system that they make, and it's it's
Speaker 3: really nice. If I'm in hotels, seat a Summit makes
Speaker 3: a sleeping bagliner. A I like to take seking bagline
Speaker 3: out when I'm going places like I got fucking fleas
Speaker 3: from a hotel bed in Rwanda. Oh no, yeah, it
Speaker 3: was bad, like if you think mosquito had to try
Speaker 3: it having And for people who haven't seen me, I'm
Speaker 3: a hairy person, like have long hair and had a beard,
Speaker 3: and fleas were just upon me and it was bad.
Speaker 3: So I like to take a little sleeping bagliner. Now
Speaker 3: that's treated with a mosquito repellent. But it must be
Speaker 3: safe for skin and stuff though, right, yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: it's embedded in the fabric called permethrine. We'll talk about
Speaker 3: it in a second. It's the last thing I use
Speaker 3: is a head bugnet. I'm a massive advocate for the
Speaker 3: head bugnet. I know you look like a complete lemon,
Speaker 3: but like it's just I don't like to be bitten
Speaker 3: in the face. No, I have been bit in the face,
Speaker 3: so yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, take it from Charine
Speaker 3: bite survivor. If you have a brimmed hat, it's much
Speaker 3: nicer because it sort of hangs in front of your face. Then,
Speaker 3: but I wear with these all the time. If you
Speaker 3: like to see wildlife, it's nice to you because it's
Speaker 3: kind of camouflaging, like it takes the glare off your face.
Speaker 3: You get really bad in sticks up in Scotland, like
Speaker 3: when I've been out there in the summer time at
Speaker 3: Form one, and I wear a lot in California, like
Speaker 3: there are some places like to hike where we have
Speaker 3: year round water here, but it's definitely pretty gross by
Speaker 3: like the end of the summer. You know, it's like
Speaker 3: it's been sitting for a while. But water is a
Speaker 3: bit constraint on your on your hiking out here, right,
Speaker 3: so you kind of need it. So I'll go down
Speaker 3: there and filter my water. But I wear my little
Speaker 3: bug face net and it works great. I love it.
Speaker 3: So after that, you can also do repellance. These come
Speaker 3: in two forms, so it's the one that you put
Speaker 3: on your clothes and the ones that you put on
Speaker 3: your body. Right. The one that you put on your
Speaker 3: clothes is called permethrine. The thing with permethrin is that
Speaker 3: it's a neurotoxin for cats, which is very bad for cats.
Speaker 3: So Soya makes a little spray bottle of it and
Speaker 3: you can spray it on your own clothes and treat
Speaker 3: them right. But if you have cats you have you
Speaker 3: must do this outside like you can't do in your house.
Speaker 3: With your cats. It's safe once it's dry, so that
Speaker 3: you can spray them, let them be on your washing
Speaker 3: line or what have you, and then and then when
Speaker 3: it's dry you can you can bring them aside and
Speaker 3: then it's safe, honestly, Like you can also send them
Speaker 3: off to a company I think it's called Insect Shield
Speaker 3: and they'll spray them for you. In the way they
Speaker 3: do it somehow bonds it for much longer, like normally
Speaker 3: at lasts for about six washes, but with them you
Speaker 3: can get like ten times as many washes. You can
Speaker 3: also buy shit, like I've just got a hoodie from
Speaker 3: a company called First Light, who make like fancy hunting
Speaker 3: stuff that has the insect stuff built in. Yeah. I
Speaker 3: like that because then if you have a hoodie as well,
Speaker 3: you can put you know, you get like a lot
Speaker 3: of coverage. But like, if a cat likes sat on
Speaker 3: this clothing, it's fine now because it's bonded. Yeah, your
Speaker 3: cat could like go and curl up in it and
Speaker 3: then have a sleep and things. So even if it
Speaker 3: gets wet, that's okay. It's when the permethro in itself
Speaker 3: is wet the first application, that's when it's risky. Okay,
Speaker 3: I see, I see. If you're going to do that,
Speaker 3: you want to do your socks as well, because they
Speaker 3: fucking love to bite around the ankle.
Speaker 4: Yep, my legs are their prime target.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's their their favorite area to bite here. I
Speaker 3: don't know why.
Speaker 4: I mean, they're probably easier to access and you're less
Speaker 4: likely to see them, I suppose, like and also I
Speaker 4: feel like if you're sitting, you're moving probably your upper
Speaker 4: body more than your lower body.
Speaker 3: So it's like, I don't know, Yeah, it's still like
Speaker 3: it sneak in their lasted. So things to like repel them.
Speaker 3: One of them is have you seen the thermo cells?
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with them? It's a brain called off
Speaker 3: that makes them too. It emits something called metha fluthern
Speaker 3: and Metha Lutheran is like a non toxic I was
Speaker 3: looking at the EPA guidelines for this. It's mostly non toxic.
Speaker 3: It should be fine in your house, but it is
Speaker 3: toxic to aquatic invertebrates, fish and bees. Because with all
Speaker 3: these things that, I don't want to just be spraying
Speaker 3: and insecticide into the world, right like yeah, and damaging
Speaker 3: like innocent non micro predators. So what the thermo cell
Speaker 3: does is you know what people have those little things
Speaker 3: in their houses where they put an essential oil in
Speaker 3: and it puffs and picture house not nice. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: like that. It's like that, okay, and it does that.
Speaker 3: But with this metaphlutherin and they work okay, like if
Speaker 3: you're in your tent stuff they work like they don't
Speaker 3: work if it's windy, they don't really work. They can
Speaker 3: be nice, like if you set them up and let
Speaker 3: them get going for a while and then come into
Speaker 3: a space, they can be really nice. And then you
Speaker 3: have other things like a fan. You can have the
Speaker 3: electric traps, right, which kind of bring even electrocute them.
Speaker 4: How do those electric traps attract them? Just the light
Speaker 4: or like what I.
Speaker 3: Think it's a UV light because yeah, it has that
Speaker 3: really bright I actually don't know they think that electrocutes
Speaker 3: them like when they land on it, right, Yeah, I
Speaker 3: think it's the light.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Those seem to be like a more multi purpose insect
Speaker 3: zappa though, right, So I've not preferred those. I don't
Speaker 3: want to be killing everything else, like just try and
Speaker 3: you know, leave no trace. And then the last thing
Speaker 3: is for some reason I've become obsessed with this recently,
Speaker 3: the different creams you can put on yourself to stop
Speaker 3: mosquitoes going away. Ideally you canind of layer up all
Speaker 3: the things right to limit, you know, like the amount
Speaker 3: of just chemicals you have to rub on your skin.
Speaker 3: Deep is the most popular one. People are pretty familiar
Speaker 3: with Deep. It was developed by the US Army in
Speaker 3: the forties. The big thing with D is it's really
Speaker 3: hard on plastics. So I'm not a contact lens or
Speaker 3: glass wearer. I don't know a contact lens is made
Speaker 3: of glass or plastic? Isn't the wrong person? Man? Okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: I have worn both, and I have no idea. I'm
Speaker 3: going to say, like a that's with that perfect vision.
Speaker 3: I have won neither, So I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think it's crazy who was made
Speaker 4: out of glass or plastic?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 4: What are contact lenses?
Speaker 3: Welcome to the portion of podcast. We're sure he googles
Speaker 3: the thing.
Speaker 4: I guess there are types of plastic, but not the
Speaker 4: kind of plastic that comes to mind when you hear
Speaker 4: the word high tech polymers that allow oxygen to flow through.
Speaker 3: To reach the cornea body body blow. So I guess, yeah, sure, yeah,
Speaker 3: be careful with your deep.
Speaker 4: They actually there's a question that says our contacts glass
Speaker 4: or plastics. So I guess I'm a dummy because that's
Speaker 4: a legitimate question.
Speaker 3: No, it's a good question. That just like sounds crazy
Speaker 3: to me. Anyway, I don't know if the deep can
Speaker 3: get to them. It can definitely, Oh yeah, it does
Speaker 3: contact lenses. There we go. It can damage your contact lenses.
Speaker 3: It definitely will mess with your rain gear, your tent,
Speaker 3: your sunglasses, especially in higher concentrations. So like deep you
Speaker 3: can get ten percent deep, you can get one hundred
Speaker 3: percent deep. You get maximum protection at thirty percent deep.
Speaker 3: So after that it's just you're buying yourself more time
Speaker 3: between applications. Also, it gets more concentrated your risking damaging
Speaker 3: your gear. And like, I don't like the way it
Speaker 3: makes my mouth feel, like with the spray. If you
Speaker 3: spray it, you get this like metallic dry mouth. It
Speaker 3: seems like you're killing yourself when you walk into a
Speaker 3: cloud of deep.
Speaker 4: Okay, cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 3: I like pickcard in. It's a synthetic version of a
Speaker 3: element that's found in pepper plants. Yeah, that's what I
Speaker 3: usually use when I go camp. Yeah, there a little
Speaker 3: Soayer makes a really nice piccard. Eventually it's got like
Speaker 3: a blue label on the bottle. Yeah, that's what I use. Yeah, Soyer. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we like Sawyer. I got to try. The reason I've
Speaker 3: I've suggested so many Soy products is because the Sawyer Foundation.
Speaker 3: We're there in the Marshal Islands when I was there. Nice,
Speaker 3: I mean I like their sh yeah, I do. I
Speaker 3: think they're really cool company. Actually, they seem to make
Speaker 3: stuff that like solves problems and then just keep making it.
Speaker 3: They don't make a new thing every year, different color
Speaker 3: and trying and rehype it, you know. Like they did
Speaker 3: really cool shap in the Marshal Islands. It's cool to
Speaker 3: see and like. Yeah, as companies go, I think they're
Speaker 3: pretty right on. They also gave us some water filters
Speaker 3: to help with the migrants the other day, which is
Speaker 3: very nice of them. We needed some water filters for
Speaker 3: folks crossing the border and they gave us some. So
Speaker 3: they are my friends. But yeah, their one is good.
Speaker 3: They make a nice sun cream actually as well, so
Speaker 3: you can you can double dip there. I'm sure it's
Speaker 3: not up to the standards of your your imported sun creams, but.
Speaker 4: That means sunscreen British translation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if you can't make the logical leap from
Speaker 3: suncream to sunscreen, yeah, that is. That is what I'm
Speaker 3: talking about.
Speaker 4: In the British defense though it's definitely a cream and
Speaker 4: not a screen.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's on us. Yeah, another incidents of British excellence.
Speaker 3: Oh my god podcast to be fair one of the
Speaker 3: few what have we got? We've got that we have
Speaker 3: the baking show and that's about it. Yeah, kind of
Speaker 3: think of much else. So there are also like natural ones,
Speaker 3: you know, like citronella is the one that people like.
Speaker 3: But I have just found that those don't work very well.
Speaker 4: I feel like it's a hit or miss. Yeah I
Speaker 4: was gonna say, I feel like it's like kind of
Speaker 4: for fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you'll feel great that you've done something.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think they just work by being strong smells that
Speaker 3: kind of mask your other smells.
Speaker 9: Hm.
Speaker 3: And you can get synthetic and natural plant oils, and
Speaker 3: there are people who will sell you bracelets with like
Speaker 3: a little thing that's supposed to secrete the citronella.
Speaker 4: Oh, I use I've used those. The ones I have
Speaker 4: used look like like phone cords that are all spirally. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the little bracelets and I have filled my ankles, put
Speaker 4: them on my wrists. Sometimes they work and sometimes I
Speaker 4: look like a but I don't know, so it was
Speaker 4: worth I've tried everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes I just burned incense and that kind of works. Again,
Speaker 3: I think this kind of it's a strong smell and
Speaker 3: the mosquitoes don't like it. Okay, that makes sense. Having
Speaker 3: incense and a box fan is not a bad solution.
Speaker 3: Like I've done that in places where you know, nothing
Speaker 3: else was available. That's pretty good. But yeah, if you're
Speaker 3: in a place where this is a problem, and it's
Speaker 3: becoming a bigger problem, right, the world is getting hotter,
Speaker 3: the climate is changing. These swampy marsh areas are drying up,
Speaker 3: so we're getting more stagnant water and less through flow.
Speaker 3: Like this is becoming a bigger problem, and our healthcare
Speaker 3: system is continuing to be fucked and getting worse, certainly
Speaker 3: in the United States, but so United Kingdom and other places.
Speaker 3: So yeah, be careful of the mosquitoes. Remember to do
Speaker 3: your sun cream before you're before your mosquito cream or
Speaker 3: lotion or whatever you're using, screen your mosquito screen. That's
Speaker 3: sort of a I got a mosquito scream? You got
Speaker 3: anything to add?
Speaker 4: No, I think that's a good little summary about what
Speaker 4: to do for mosquitos. I hate mosquito so much, and
Speaker 4: I'm one of those people that don't think they should
Speaker 4: be around. But since they are, I guess we got
Speaker 4: to deal with them. So, Yeah, it's nice to know
Speaker 4: that I use like a good thing. Like I think
Speaker 4: if I use something that you use, I'm like, wow,
Speaker 4: I did.
Speaker 3: Something right, so to get way ahead of me on
Speaker 3: the on the sun cream.
Speaker 4: But no, I think it's a it's helpful to know.
Speaker 4: I'm sure many people out there are sensors to mosquito
Speaker 4: bites and anything will.
Speaker 3: Help if they I don't know. Yeah, it sucks.
Speaker 4: It's getting so hot and they're everywhere. And now what's
Speaker 4: really bothering me is that they're getting smaller and harder
Speaker 4: to see, but they're just as annoying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the bite still even if there's yeah, yeah, you've
Speaker 3: got to get a really fine mesh field mosquito nets
Speaker 3: for that. You can't be using other products. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: don't have a mosquito net. I should go one. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I get a mosquito net. I love a head mosquito net.
Speaker 3: It's great. It serves you some. It stops the mosquitoes
Speaker 3: biting you, it stops other people talking to you. Wow,
Speaker 3: it's a great, great thing to have. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I have seen these videos of like someone having a
Speaker 4: mosquito on it on them and then like the mosquitoes,
Speaker 4: you see it poking and not being able to reach.
Speaker 3: It's kind of funny, like mosquito ares very funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: yeah cool. Yeah, thanks James. Yeah, that's why it's a
Speaker 3: podcast brought to you by me hyper focusing on things,
Speaker 3: which is what I do, is the way I deal
Speaker 3: with my anxiety about going to places which aren't necessarily
Speaker 3: places people go for fun. Word all right bye.
Speaker 5: So yeah, welcome to cut Up Here. I'm Andrew Siege
Speaker 5: from the Future Channel Andrewism and I'm joined today by James.
Speaker 3: It's me Hi, Andrew, So James.
Speaker 5: Just before the show we were talking about it a
Speaker 5: couple of different places that we've either been to or
Speaker 5: would like to visit. Have you ever been to the Andes.
Speaker 3: No, anything I have, Actually i'd like to I like mountains.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Andes is one of my bucket list destinations
Speaker 5: for sure. They've always enticed me, you know, as a
Speaker 5: place of settlement, a center of culture, a place of
Speaker 5: political struggle. So you know, I had to do an
Speaker 5: episode or the development of anarchistsinicalism in Peru. So they
Speaker 5: continuing along with my previous research on anarchism and other
Speaker 5: parts of the world, much information I've gathered as thanks
Speaker 5: to the work of Stephen J. Hush and they shoudn't
Speaker 5: found the world, particularly anarchism and cynicalism in the colonial
Speaker 5: and post colonial world eighteen seventeen, nineteen forty. And you know,
Speaker 5: people don't usually think of Peru when they think of
Speaker 5: anarchistsinicalist struggles, not even in the context of Latin America.
Speaker 5: Folks familiar with that history would quicker consider Brazil or
Speaker 5: Argentina as sites of anarchistsinicalism. You know, in Brazil, the
Speaker 5: roots of anarchism could be traced back to the late
Speaker 5: nineteenth century, to the influence of European immigrants, and by
Speaker 5: the early twentieth century had anarchist ideas keen interaction across
Speaker 5: the working class, with the establishment of various associations and
Speaker 5: newspapers like the Brazilian Workers Confederation founded in nineteen oh six.
Speaker 5: Anarchists would play, of course, a crucial role in the
Speaker 5: General strike of nineteen seventeen, and then, unfortunately, with the
Speaker 5: rise of Jitulio Vargas and his Estado Novo regime in
Speaker 5: the nineteen thirties, there was a very severe oppression of
Speaker 5: anarchist activities in Argentina. He also had anarchism taken route
Speaker 5: in the late nineteenth century, again largely due to the
Speaker 5: influence of European immigrants, and by the early twentieth century
Speaker 5: Buenos Aires had become a hub of anarchist activity, with
Speaker 5: numerous anarchist newspapers, clubs and unions. The Argentine Region of
Speaker 5: Workers Federation, foundated nineteen oh one, was a leading anachosynicus
Speaker 5: organization that advocated for workers' rights and direct action. Sadly,
Speaker 5: the movement reached its peak during the first two decades
Speaker 5: of twentieth century, and fortunately, similarly to Brazil, due to
Speaker 5: the repression they endured, particularly during the infamous Tragic Weak
Speaker 5: in nineteen nineteen, where a major workers strike led to
Speaker 5: violent clashes and a crackdown on anarchists and labor activists.
Speaker 5: The overall movement went into a decline. Peru during this
Speaker 5: period was predominantly an agrarian society with a large and
Speaker 5: economically marginalized indigenous population. It hardly resembled a nation into
Speaker 5: throes of industrialization. So although there was significant capitalist growth
Speaker 5: in Peru's export sectors, chiefly mining, sugar, cotton, and wool,
Speaker 5: vast areas of the country remained largely unaffected by these
Speaker 5: capitalist changers. Aside from Lima and its adjacent port city, Calau,
Speaker 5: which served as the nation's administrative, commercial and financial hub,
Speaker 5: sizeable Iwan economies were conspicuously absent. This lack of urban
Speaker 5: centers typically assumed eight with industrial growth post a unique
Speaker 5: challenge for the development of a robust labor movement, but
Speaker 5: laborment would still arise. The working class in Lemaclaur would
Speaker 5: emerge beginnings in the eighteen nineties and early nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 5: spurred by the export boom that invigorated the urban economy.
Speaker 5: Profits from the export sectors with reinvestments and new financial institutions,
Speaker 5: infrastructure projects, utility companies, and consumer goods industries by native
Speaker 5: and foreign capitalists, and this economic growth led to a
Speaker 5: dramatic rise in the urban labor force in Lima. The
Speaker 5: number of manual workers grew from about nine thousand in
Speaker 5: eighteen seventy six tony twenty four thousand and nineteen oh eight,
Speaker 5: making up seventeen percent of Lema's estimated one hundred and
Speaker 5: forty thousand residents. In Kalau, the workforce grew at a
Speaker 5: slower pace, doubling in size Streeen nineteen oh five nineteen
Speaker 5: twenty to around eight thousand out of a total population
Speaker 5: of fifty two thousand. So this is not a bustling
Speaker 5: industrial heartland by any means, and peasant based society is
Speaker 5: are not exactly known for their syndicalism, But despite its unlikelihood,
Speaker 5: Peru was indeed also a place of anarchist cynicalism, though
Speaker 5: most notably within Lima and Callao. The nineteen tens and
Speaker 5: twenties were the Heydi of syncalism Peru, as anarchist ideas
Speaker 5: and publications were circulated by a small handful of radical
Speaker 5: immigrants intellectuals, alongside the labor organized and efforts of craftsmen
Speaker 5: and machine tenders who were inspired by Pruron, Bercunan, Kropotkin,
Speaker 5: and Manchester. Thanks to their efforts, anarchist cynicalism would come
Speaker 5: to dominate the still fledgland labor movement in Peru, spreading
Speaker 5: its influence beyond Limacalau to the working classes along Peru's
Speaker 5: northern coast and central and southern highlands. Workers in factories, crafts, transportation,
Speaker 5: and rural settings all found appeal in the ideals and
Speaker 5: practice of the ideology. Of course, at the size of
Speaker 5: the movement of the time, the anarchists may have dominated
Speaker 5: the movement, but the movement itself and the anarchists with
Speaker 5: that had constituted a minority of Peru's urban and rural
Speaker 5: working classes. Keeps that in mind as we proceed stea
Speaker 5: emerging Peruvian working class was highly diverse. He had workers
Speaker 5: of different origins, gender, race, ethnicity, age, skill level, and
Speaker 5: despite these differences, they all were dealing with long working
Speaker 5: hours after between twelve to sixteen hours a day in
Speaker 5: poor conditions for meager wages that barely covered basic living expenses.
Speaker 5: Seeking to improve their dire working and living conditions, workers
Speaker 5: began to turn to anarchism because the elite dominated political
Speaker 5: system in Peru was simply not taking them on. But
Speaker 5: there was a handful of sympathetic dissolusion elites like Manuel
Speaker 5: Gonzalez Prada, an upper class intellectual who became an anarchist
Speaker 5: after interacting with French and Spanish anarchists during a self
Speaker 5: imposed European exile between eighteen ninety one and eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 5: Gonzales Prada founded the first anarchist publication, Los Parias in
Speaker 5: nineteen oh four, and this was soon followed by other
Speaker 5: anarchist newspapers like Lassimier and the Roja, Elambriento, Umanidad and Oprimido.
Speaker 5: Anarchist slogans like Kropotkins liberties and not bestowed, They're seized
Speaker 5: were prominently featured in these newspapers, and these publications, mainly
Speaker 5: produced by radical intellectuals such as Glicerio Tassara and hil
Speaker 5: Rihi Cali, Carlos del Barzo and Ino Sincio Dombarozzi, introduced
Speaker 5: workers to European anarchist ideas and perspectives on the state,
Speaker 5: the Bouchoisi, the church, property and class relations. Anarchist study
Speaker 5: circles further promoted these ideas among workers, operated by both
Speaker 5: workers and radical intellectuals. Groups like the Center of Socialist
Speaker 5: Studies First of May in Lima and Love and Light
Speaker 5: in Calao, provided spaces for discussing anarchist principles, and these
Speaker 5: study circles, like the anarchist press, emphasized workers, self emancipation
Speaker 5: and cultural advancement. And somehow this man manages to come
Speaker 5: up in practically every single one of my explorations of
Speaker 5: anarchist history, that being the Spanish anarchist Francisco Ferrer. He
Speaker 5: was the guy who kick started the modern school movement
Speaker 5: in Spain and led to the creation of anarchist schools worldwide,
Speaker 5: and he was also unjustly executed by the Spanish state.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Frere is like a guy I like to a lot.
Speaker 3: I like to If you're in Barcelona, you can visit him,
Speaker 3: along with Ascastle and de Ruti on much week. They're
Speaker 3: in the cemetery there. They have like a little little
Speaker 3: area with the three of them.
Speaker 5: I was wondering for a second. He said, oh, you
Speaker 5: could visit him. I was like, well, really, yeah, pretty sure.
Speaker 3: He's six feet under he's immortal, like they've re reanimated him.
Speaker 3: It's like zombie for their Yeah.
Speaker 5: I feel like the Simpsons did an episode of that
Speaker 5: with Lenin.
Speaker 3: Fortunately, I'm trying to think. I'm pretty sure that anarkids
Speaker 3: have we have spared the world the embalming of our leaders.
Speaker 5: Fortunately, yeah, fortunately, I mean his death. Though despite not
Speaker 5: being embalmed, his death still continues to refiberate across these
Speaker 5: historical episodes across the world. Upon his death, anarchists went
Speaker 5: out in their numbers to protest his execution, and Peru
Speaker 5: was no different. On October seventeenth, nineteen oh nine, the
Speaker 5: Center of Socialist Studies First of May organized a public
Speaker 5: protest in response to the execution of federer A by
Speaker 5: the Spanish government, and these sorts of demonstrations were not
Speaker 5: new to the workers in Peru at the time. In
Speaker 5: the previous year, an anarchist musical group associated with the
Speaker 5: Center held a performance to commemorate the nineteen oh seven
Speaker 5: massacre of Chilean mine workers. Furthermore, annual media celebrations in
Speaker 5: honor of the Chicago Martyrs were also supported by these
Speaker 5: study circles and the anarchist press. The first media celebration
Speaker 5: in Lima, organized primarily by the Federation of Baker Workers
Speaker 5: Staff Peru, took lace in nineteen oh five, highlight an
Speaker 5: international working class solidarity and the struggle for the eight
Speaker 5: hour workday, while honoring Peru's first worker martyr, and to
Speaker 5: the dedication of anarchist leaders, publications, and study circles, the
Speaker 5: early years of Peruvian anarchism and labor organization laid the
Speaker 5: groundwork for a movement committed to justice and dignity for
Speaker 5: all workers. We can say that by nineteen eleven anarchist
Speaker 5: cynicalism had truly firmly taken route. Why because this was
Speaker 5: the year of the first general strike in Peru by
Speaker 5: the urban working class, spearheaded by anarcho synicalists. In March
Speaker 5: nineteen eleven, five hundred workers at the US owned Vitarite
Speaker 5: cotton mill initiated a strike demanding higher wages, a reduction
Speaker 5: of the work day from thirteen to ten hours, and
Speaker 5: the elimination of the night shift. And I found these
Speaker 5: demands very interesting because I'm imagining even now people back
Speaker 5: then saying, you know, how lazy can you be? You
Speaker 5: know you only want to work ten hours? Like, come on,
Speaker 5: some of us, some of us are putting in sixteen, seventeen,
Speaker 5: eighteen hours, pick up, pick up the slack.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's always like these early anarchist demands, you
Speaker 3: just realize the unfathomable misery of being like part of
Speaker 3: the industrial working class in the late nineteenth and early
Speaker 3: twentieth century.
Speaker 5: Yes, like can you can you ease the boot off
Speaker 5: my neck for like two seconds a day? You know?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, it's people fighting and dying right to work,
Speaker 3: like the amount of hours that most of us are
Speaker 3: awake in a day, and they would work that much
Speaker 3: without taking care of any of their family or personal
Speaker 3: or other.
Speaker 5: Needs, like can I please see my family for more
Speaker 5: than an already?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely not no uth, And then the Pinkerton's come out
Speaker 3: and yes, exactly, like, yeah, people are asking for sixteen
Speaker 3: hour day and their response is is to send out
Speaker 3: someone to murder them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah, but I am impressed by the tenacity,
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, absolutely, even with the what I would
Speaker 5: consider to be rather self demands, I mean, a ten
Speaker 5: hour worth, the higher wages, and the eliminition of the
Speaker 5: night shift. I mean those are things that some people
Speaker 5: take for granted today, right, Yeah, but that's something they
Speaker 5: had to fight for and their strike lasted twenty nine days.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's very impressive. Yeah. This has reminded me
Speaker 3: of like I'm working on a book right now and
Speaker 3: I've been reading this biography of Duluti for a while
Speaker 3: that Able pass wrote and it passes book when de
Speaker 3: Ruti goes into exile for a Way too and turn
Speaker 3: travels across South America, and these these anarchist schools are
Speaker 3: being set up along the modern system as envisaged by
Speaker 3: IF and I just fl air. And they don't have
Speaker 3: any funding, right because everyone's so dirt poor that like
Speaker 3: that there isn't much surplus to contribute to their children's education.
Speaker 3: And they have once they've taken care of their subsistence needs.
Speaker 3: And there's this line in the book which for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: it's just like a line I aspire to write something
Speaker 3: that's beautiful. It's the Ruty was very fond of children,
Speaker 3: and so he risked his life robbing banks to fund
Speaker 3: their education, which is like, I just love the pivot
Speaker 3: from like he liked kids and therefore he conducted arm
Speaker 3: bank robbery throughout the world.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, it's like you know, put the money in
Speaker 5: the bag and maybe some textbooks while yeah at.
Speaker 3: Ith Yeah, and like he at this time, like the
Speaker 3: anarchists were so pure at this time, and like in
Speaker 3: their sort of aspirations and in their actions in many
Speaker 3: ways in other ways, not of course that they could
Speaker 3: not rid themselves to some of their gender assumptions. But
Speaker 3: they would make an accounting of everything they stole, which
Speaker 3: is really not like if if you're involved in crimes
Speaker 3: and you're listening, it's not a good idea yea, yeah.
Speaker 3: But he would do it to to like prove sure
Speaker 3: everyone that he wasn't stealing for his own personal benefit.
Speaker 3: They'd be like, we get this to this school and
Speaker 3: we bought some textbooks and like that. You know, they
Speaker 3: needed school lunches, so we got some sacks of rice
Speaker 3: and bananas, and like, as you can see, the entire
Speaker 3: money from this bank heightst has been redistributed, and we're
Speaker 3: off to another country to do the same.
Speaker 5: Now I'm just imagined and this guy like, you're keeping
Speaker 5: all these records because the anarchist auditor is going to
Speaker 5: come and you know check all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I'm not sure who would like
Speaker 3: doubt the commitment of the man traveling around the world
Speaker 3: robbing the banks. But apparently they felt that like no
Speaker 3: one should be above approach, which is admirable. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know what's not admirable, Andrew ads, Yeah, it's our
Speaker 3: obligation to include products and services in these podcasts, but
Speaker 3: we have to. So here we go. Okay, we're back,
Speaker 3: and yeah, you're telling me about their their twenty nine
Speaker 3: day general strike or the strike rather than a general strike.
Speaker 5: Yeah, strike, but you're close, because the strike started in
Speaker 5: March as a regular strike, it lasted twenty nine days
Speaker 5: and then eventually escalated into a general strike on April tenth,
Speaker 5: bring in Lima's business and transport to a complete halt.
Speaker 5: And so the following day, President Leguya intervened and forced
Speaker 5: the mills management to meet the workers' demands.
Speaker 3: That's a win.
Speaker 5: It is away of a ten hour workday, but a way.
Speaker 3: Nonetheless, Yeah, I guess it's approved that you can force
Speaker 3: them to change and then you can you can continue
Speaker 3: from there.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so to save safeguard their heart won victories,
Speaker 5: textile workers in Vitarite established the Textile Workers Unification of
Speaker 5: Ittarity in May nineteen eleven, dedicated to defending the rights
Speaker 5: of all workers. Inspired with Vitarte's example, workers at other
Speaker 5: major mills and Lima began forming their own resistance societies
Speaker 5: dedicated to serving and defending the right of the proletariat
Speaker 5: In general and the textile workers in particular. The movement
Speaker 5: continued to gain momentum in nineteen twelve nineteen thirteen. In
Speaker 5: October nineteen twelve, the La Protest group succeeded in forming
Speaker 5: the first Workers Regional Federation of Peru, united various worker
Speaker 5: resistance societies modeled after Argentina's Workers Regional Federation. The FORP,
Speaker 5: as it was also called, advocated for both immediate improvements
Speaker 5: and long term social revolution, even to unite workers across Peru. Unfortunately,
Speaker 5: as is the case with many workers struggles in this time,
Speaker 5: economic instability and state hostelity during World War One led
Speaker 5: to the disillusion of the FRP in nineteen sixteen. Thankfully,
Speaker 5: this setback was temporary. Between nineteen sixteen and nineteen nineteen,
Speaker 5: Anacosynicolus redouble their efforts, focusing on organizing both urban and
Speaker 5: rural workers. Following the death of Manuel Gonzalez Prada nineteen nineteen,
Speaker 5: worker run union presses emerged, spreading anarchosynicalist ideas and replace
Speaker 5: in earlier anarchist publications. This renewed activity strengthened the labor
Speaker 5: move lead entity establishment of new labor federations and the
Speaker 5: revival of the FORP, and with the deteriorating conditions during
Speaker 5: the war years and real wages fallen sharply, they had
Speaker 5: to be a wave of strikes in nineteen eighteen. The
Speaker 5: most significant strike occurred in December nineteen eighteen b nearly
Speaker 5: twenty nine hundred textile workers demanded an eight hour workday,
Speaker 5: finally making some progress.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we'll get in there.
Speaker 5: What I find so interesting about the demand of an
Speaker 5: eight hour workday is if we look at their first
Speaker 5: demand nineteen eleven, they fought to reduce their workday from
Speaker 5: thirteen hours to ten hours, right, and then a mayor
Speaker 5: seven years later, nineteen eleven to nineteen eighteen, I mean
Speaker 5: seven years.
Speaker 3: Later, Yeah, they got them down to eight They go from.
Speaker 5: Ten hours to eight hours. And by the way, by
Speaker 5: January nineteen nineteen, they organized a general strike. They moved
Speaker 5: on to a general strike. The led to street clashes
Speaker 5: and business shutdowns, and despite the arrests and the torture
Speaker 5: strike leaders, the strike continued until President part of they
Speaker 5: were conceded to eat hour weekday. So in seven years
Speaker 5: they went from ten hours to eat hours.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we've.
Speaker 5: All collectively as a global society been stuck on eight
Speaker 5: hours for the past century, over our century at this point,
Speaker 5: I mean it's twenty four this was nineteen nineteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, putting it that way, that is bleak.
Speaker 5: We should we should be down'd on hour this point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we give it extrapolate, right, we take two
Speaker 3: points and draw the line. That's what happens when like
Speaker 3: they see the success of the people in the streets, trained,
Speaker 3: and they know they have of power and they can
Speaker 3: keep going.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because they wouldn't have felt so bull as to
Speaker 5: demand the eight hours if they didn't fight and win
Speaker 5: that ten hours at first, just a couple of years before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, it's why we have made a versus International
Speaker 3: Workers Day, right, Like, because like the number of rights
Speaker 3: we enjoy visa v our employers and the state were
Speaker 3: all fought for and one by people who sometimes died
Speaker 3: in the process, and like, yeah, we ought to remember that.
Speaker 3: I think like sometimes now organizing forgets how hard fought
Speaker 3: those were. But also like they won. Yeah, we have
Speaker 3: not had many dubs in the in the intervening period.
Speaker 3: Of course, the state has like the state has grown
Speaker 3: exponentially stronger.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean the situation has changed. We have
Speaker 5: to acknowledge that. Yeah, but it's just it's it is
Speaker 5: very fascinating, you know, the way that you know, these
Speaker 5: small winds was able to embolden bigger winds, yeah later
Speaker 5: down the line, and that keeping that momentum really is vital.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, it still works that way when I, like,
Speaker 3: you know, in the last couple of years, I've been
Speaker 3: to Java and to mian Maar, like, they have done
Speaker 3: things that would have seemed inconceivable to them ten years
Speaker 3: before they did them. And in both cases it's by
Speaker 3: staying in the streets, right or staying in the jungles
Speaker 3: or the mountains or wherever you're fighting them, and then
Speaker 3: refusing to like accept that the state can tell you
Speaker 3: what to do, even when the state tries to bring
Speaker 3: its coercive violence against you. And like that's how all
Speaker 3: of these these winds occur. But it doesn't happen without organization,
Speaker 3: without community, without like all the things that they had
Speaker 3: built in Peru, right like before they did their first strike,
Speaker 3: they had to have confidence that their strike woul succeed,
Speaker 3: and presumably a strike fund and a means to collectively
Speaker 3: support the people who weren't getting paid and they have
Speaker 3: to build all that and then like these things can
Speaker 3: kind of cascade once the once the movement has a
Speaker 3: strong base.
Speaker 5: Exactly. There's the reason that I'm going through these histories.
Speaker 5: You know, these are the sort of lessons I want
Speaker 5: people be able to glean.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I think it can be frustrating otherwise, like
Speaker 3: it can be frustrating to be people. I'm not saying
Speaker 3: people right now aren't trying, because people do a lot
Speaker 3: and they're working hard. But it can be frustrating until
Speaker 3: you see that it takes years of building that base,
Speaker 3: and then things can things can seem to come quickly,
Speaker 3: but it does years of work sort of behind the scene.
Speaker 3: That has happened first.
Speaker 5: Absolutely so. In the months following the general strike, workers
Speaker 5: continue to protest the rising costs of living. Organizers like
Speaker 5: Alberto Funken Nicolas Gutara formed the Committee for the Cheapening
Speaker 5: of Prime Necessities, mobilizing thousand. I think we definitely need
Speaker 5: a Committee for the Cheapening of Prime Necessities today.
Speaker 3: That's an amazing group. Like I was just what a
Speaker 3: great thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, fantastic name. When the demands were ignored, you know,
Speaker 5: here we go again. A general strike was declared in
Speaker 5: May nineteen nineteen, resulted in violent clashes with the state
Speaker 5: and the arrests of Kutara and another figure, Carlos Barber.
Speaker 5: Upon their release, resolve unshaken, Gutara and Barbara defiantly addressed
Speaker 5: President Laguya, stating in part that the populace of today
Speaker 5: was not the team one of yesterday, which had silently
Speaker 5: borne all attorneys. Sounds like a threat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Two days later, FORP was reactivated with a mission to
Speaker 5: dismantle capitalism and create a society based on mutual aid
Speaker 5: and equality. The aerocosilicust movement had dissolved any linkering passivity
Speaker 5: among Lemaclau's workers. The passion, hunger, and aggression towards state
Speaker 5: and employer threats had reached a crescendo by this point.
Speaker 5: For example, in September nineteen twenty one, textile workers seized
Speaker 5: el InCor mill in response to management's plans to close
Speaker 5: the factory. Although they were eventually dislodged by troops, their
Speaker 5: active resistance demonstrated their determination and boldness. It isn't that
Speaker 5: fascinating that these workers were willing to seize the mill
Speaker 5: they had worked at because the mansion plan and closing
Speaker 5: it down. They were willing to take control of ath
Speaker 5: place and work at it and you know, couldn't contribute
Speaker 5: to the economy. But the troops were mobilized to ensure
Speaker 5: that they did not exercise autonomy as workers to self
Speaker 5: organize their own labor. It's either under management or out
Speaker 5: of a or there's no working for yourself or working
Speaker 5: as a collective. Also, in nineteen twenty one, the FORP
Speaker 5: was replaced by the Local Workers Federation or FOL, which
Speaker 5: lashed out against the government's legal rules against strikes. So
Speaker 5: in nineteen twenty President Leaguiya put forward a new constitution
Speaker 5: with very strict provisions to regulate this wave of strikes
Speaker 5: and to put the labor conflicts under arbitration by the state.
Speaker 5: And so the Local Workers Federation the FOL, which had
Speaker 5: replaced the FORP in nineteen twenty one, lashed out at
Speaker 5: this government's legal ruse and vowed to completely ignore it.
Speaker 5: At the time, as well, alongside the labor struggles, Anaqua
Speaker 5: Syncalists were struggling to transform culture. Contrary to the idea
Speaker 5: that the f WEL neglected cultural issues, evident shows they
Speaker 5: actively developed as work in class culture. Their strategy was
Speaker 5: a war of position against rule elites, even to create
Speaker 5: a counterculture that challenged the dominant bourgeois values. At the
Speaker 5: nineteen twenty one FOL Congress, workers affirmed the importance of
Speaker 5: both economic improvements and cultural uplift, which led to the
Speaker 5: establishment of initiatives like a worker's daily newspaper, a popular library,
Speaker 5: and various cultural associations. One key example was the central
Speaker 5: musical Obrero de Lima, founded in nineteen twenty two, which
Speaker 5: used music to promote workers' rights and solilarity. Workers also
Speaker 5: participated in social events like the Fiesta de la plant
Speaker 5: a secular festival designed to compete with Christian holidays and
Speaker 5: promote class unity. They also held Madia celebrations and organized
Speaker 5: tributes for foreign comrades. Moreover, the FOL supported the creation
Speaker 5: of popular universities to educate workers and foster cultural and
Speaker 5: political awareness. Meanwhile, also in the late nineteen tens and
Speaker 5: nineteen twenties, the southern highlands of Peru saw the emerging
Speaker 5: of a dynamic network of anarchostynicalist movements. The network thrived
Speaker 5: amid the burgeoning will export economy. The will trade's expansion
Speaker 5: spurred economic links and infrastructural development, which turned Arakeeper into
Speaker 5: a key economic center and the hub of the anarchisyndicalist
Speaker 5: network in the region. Aracosynicalism and Araqkeeper was influenced by
Speaker 5: four major factors. A radical liberal press, the labor movement
Speaker 5: and Lima, immigrant anarchists and cross border connections with Chilean
Speaker 5: anachosynicalists influenced by thinkers like Manuel Gonzales Prado, intellectuals, artisans, critique, Arakeepers,
Speaker 5: conservative society through radical publications such as Lariete and Bandera Roja.
Speaker 5: These radical ideas burned significant actions like Atraqueper's first major
Speaker 5: strikes in nineteen oh two, the inaugural media celebration in
Speaker 5: nineteen oh six, and the establishment of pivotal organizations such
Speaker 5: as the Worker's Social Center of Araqkeeper and the Worker
Speaker 5: Coalition of the Neighborhoods. The labor movement in Lima, along
Speaker 5: with influenzers Argentina and Chile, further inspired Attkeepers workers. By
Speaker 5: December nineteen eighteen, motivated by reports of workers struggles abroad,
Speaker 5: Artisans and Workers and Arakeeper, founder of Society of Workers
Speaker 5: and Mutual Assistants, the SOSM. In July nineteen nineteen, following
Speaker 5: Lema's example, at Keeper's main labor organizations established a committee
Speaker 5: to combat the rising cost of living. When the demands
Speaker 5: were ignored, they too launched a general strike, which lasted
Speaker 5: eight days and received widespread support. While some wage and
Speaker 5: benefit demands were met, many of the committee's requests remained unaddressed.
Speaker 5: So after the general strike, Atkeeper's workers founded the Arakeeper
Speaker 5: Worker Federation to advocate for their rights and demands. Further,
Speaker 5: that federation was one of numerous unions and federations, either
Speaker 5: being the Local Worker Federation of Arakeeper or Fuller, which
Speaker 5: emerged between nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty six in response
Speaker 5: to calls from the fr Repeats enhanced the worker's capacity
Speaker 5: for direct action against capitalists and state depression. Like their
Speaker 5: count parts in Lima, at A Keepers, anarchistynicalists employed direct
Speaker 5: action to achieve both immediate and long term goals. The
Speaker 5: protests against a railway tariff hike in nineteen twenty three
Speaker 5: pressure the government enough to suspend the increase, but nineteen
Speaker 5: twenty five was perhaps their most pivotal year because the
Speaker 5: Popular Workers Assembly, which is an ad hoc coalition of
Speaker 5: anarchistnicalist groups to at a Keeper and Lima called for
Speaker 5: a general strike against the Road Conscription Law, which required
Speaker 5: adult males to register and to work on unpaid state
Speaker 5: infrastructure projects for upward of twelve days per year. For
Speaker 5: the Assembly, this was more than just an unfailed law.
Speaker 5: This was a symbol of the state's utter disregard for
Speaker 5: the working class. As a strike unfolded, the authorities sought
Speaker 5: to crush the movement, arrest in labor leaders and attempting
Speaker 5: to dismantle the anarchist organization's influence. But even with only
Speaker 5: a small industrial sector and a relatively small population, at
Speaker 5: a Keeper's labor movement demonstrated a remarkable level of class
Speaker 5: consciousness and solidarity beyond strike to use a variety of
Speaker 5: methods to build solidarity and consciousness among workers, from worker
Speaker 5: libraries to football clubs. One key figure in this movement
Speaker 5: was Ramon Rossignole, a Spanish architect and passionate anarcho syndic list.
Speaker 5: Arriving an araqueper in nineteen nineteen, Russignole turned his office
Speaker 5: into a hub of anarchist thought at activism. His influence
Speaker 5: was profound as he trained future leaders like Jacinto Leendo
Speaker 5: and Francisco Ramos, who would become central figures in the
Speaker 5: labor movement. Roussignol's efforts extended beyond traditional activism. He also
Speaker 5: founded a popular university in the footsteps of Francisco Ferrer,
Speaker 5: and it stuve as a place for workers to receive
Speaker 5: education and become politically conscious. Endo, a key port city
Speaker 5: in Peru, the influence of the International Workers of the
Speaker 5: World was particularly strong. Louis Armando Trivigno, a key Chilean
Speaker 5: IWW leader, published a series of influential articles in a
Speaker 5: newspaper called Labor Testa in nineteen twenty two. He extolled
Speaker 5: the virtues the IWW's methods and called for international solidarity
Speaker 5: among workers. He was best received right in Moyendo, where
Speaker 5: by early nineteen twenty five, maritime workers from Chile had
Speaker 5: established close and secretive tie to the local Peruvian workers.
Speaker 5: Under the cover of darkness, they held clandestine meetings and
Speaker 5: an old house at Ailey Street. These meetings would lead
Speaker 5: to the formation of a local IWW branch right in Moyendo.
Speaker 5: But it wasn't just a meeting of the minds, but
Speaker 5: of the shared struggles and victories of the workers that
Speaker 5: sevented these ties. In February nineteen twenty five, a popular
Speaker 5: general strike in Moyendo saw workers fighting back against unjust
Speaker 5: practices by British owned companies. The strike was a massive success,
Speaker 5: and the solidarity from Chile and IWW members bolstered the
Speaker 5: Approvian workers' resolve. The government's response the anarchist synicalist movement
Speaker 5: was severe there on the spread of what they saw
Speaker 5: as Bolshevik ideas. They cracked down hard on the Moyendo
Speaker 5: labor movement. Security forces were deployed to suppressed protests and
Speaker 5: activists were arrested or reported to Chile. Of course, government
Speaker 5: repression efforts were not fully successful due to resilience of loose,
Speaker 5: flexible and decentralized organizing the seeds of anarchistniclists thought had
Speaker 5: already taken route. Throughout nineteen twenty six and beyond, the
Speaker 5: labor movement and Moyendo continued to be a site of
Speaker 5: struggle and resistance. Workers engage in protests and work stoppages,
Speaker 5: driven a by the ideas of direct action and social
Speaker 5: justice that have been nurtured through the interaction with Chilean Wobblies.
Speaker 3: Do you know what was almost certainly not nurtured through
Speaker 3: interactions with Chilean wobblies Andrew ads Yeah, and we are
Speaker 3: back from the outbreak.
Speaker 5: Beyond the cities. Anarchistinicalism had a profound impact on the
Speaker 5: rural indigenous communities in Cusco and Puno. Internal migration and
Speaker 5: the exchange of ideals led to the rise of a
Speaker 5: new political consciousness among the peasantry. Carlos Condorina, an indigenous
Speaker 5: peasant from Puno, became a key figure in the Tejuante
Speaker 5: Suyo pro Indian Rights Central Committee the sept where he
Speaker 5: championed indigenous labor rights and the struggle for better work
Speaker 5: and conditions. His work, along with that of other provincial
Speaker 5: migrants like Esequiel or Viola, bridged the gap between the
Speaker 5: urban anarchosynicalists and the rural indigenous communities. Reviola was a
Speaker 5: passionate advocate for both indigenous rights and the broader anarchosynicalist course,
Speaker 5: pushing back against the paternalism of the state toward indigenous
Speaker 5: community and connecting the struggles of workers and peasants alike.
Speaker 5: He spoke out against bourgeois pigs Yankee imperialism, all while
Speaker 5: encouraging pride in one's indigeneity. Alongside Reviola, Salazar and Ayulo
Speaker 5: would also guide the SEPT and the Provian region of
Speaker 5: Indian Workers Federation toward anarchist syndicuist ideology, organization, and tactics.
Speaker 5: Even after his untimely death in nineteen twenty five, with
Speaker 5: Viewler's legacy continued to inspire anarchists and indigenous movements. Indigenous
Speaker 5: leaders and activists have been grown fed up with the
Speaker 5: abuse of practices of local authorities and the gaminalists, the
Speaker 5: rural bosses who exploited the peasants. Pedro Jose Rada Igama,
Speaker 5: the Minister of Government and Police at the time, blamed
Speaker 5: these uprisings on known agitators. He claimed that these agitators
Speaker 5: were convincing the indigenous people that they rode conscription law
Speaker 5: and other municipal laws were designed to oppress them, even
Speaker 5: though the indigenous people could see for themselves the effects
Speaker 5: of the law. Both the anarchists and the indigenous organizers
Speaker 5: had laid the crown work, but it was the people
Speaker 5: themselves who chose not to accept such state impositions. Uprisings
Speaker 5: broke out across Cutsco and Puno District authorities had to
Speaker 5: suspend the conscription several provinces due to the intense resistance.
Speaker 5: The sheer force of the crackdown was so extreme that
Speaker 5: the city mayor and the municipal council had to appeal
Speaker 5: to President Leaguya for the suspension of the law, and
Speaker 5: they succeeded at least temporarily until July nineteen twenty six,
Speaker 5: and as soon as the law was reinstated, the Popular
Speaker 5: Assembly reignited the resistance, leaving went as first issuing direct
Speaker 5: threats to the officials enforcing the law, noting that they
Speaker 5: had the home addresses of the Conscription Council and was
Speaker 5: not responsible for any potential consequences of their actions.
Speaker 3: That's definitely a threat.
Speaker 5: That's definitely out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: They also sent delegates to Lima to organize a nationwide
Speaker 5: campaign against the law, which led to their arrest and
Speaker 5: sparked even more protests in Atkeeper and Lima throughout late
Speaker 5: nineteen twenties. Despite increasing state repression, the anarchists Sanrachist Nicholas
Speaker 5: did not let up for as long as they could,
Speaker 5: so over the first three decades of the nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 5: anarchist syndicalism in Peru spread thanks to a mix of factors,
Speaker 5: the distribution of radical ideas through publications, the influence of
Speaker 5: activists from other countries, and most importantly, the work of
Speaker 5: local organizers, most prominently in Lima Kalau. Despite facing immense
Speaker 5: challenges and a significant decline by the end of the
Speaker 5: nineteen twenties, the movement laid the groundwork for future labor politics.
Speaker 5: Former Arachas cynicalists joined new political parties and an effort
Speaker 5: to carry forward their ideals, compromising a long way, so
Speaker 5: the influence didn't fully disappear, but it did transform. Still,
Speaker 5: their spirit lived on somewhat in the ongoing fight for
Speaker 5: justice and equality in Peru, one that continues.
Speaker 1: To this day.
Speaker 3: Hello podcast fans, Me James and my friend Scherene, and
Speaker 3: also Cherene's cat Bunny.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, she is here. She is here and ready
Speaker 4: to pod.
Speaker 3: Yeah. She loves to cast a pod and so do we. Today, Cherene,
Speaker 3: we have the great pleasure of talking about the border again,
Speaker 3: which is something I talk about a lot, something that
Speaker 3: politicians also talk about a lot. Today, what I want
Speaker 3: to talk about is the difference between Kamala Harris and
Speaker 3: Donald Trump when it comes to the border, Because shockingly,
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of crap reporting on her border stance.
Speaker 3: There has been some good reporting, and like, there's always
Speaker 3: going to be right wing disinformation anytime you talk about
Speaker 3: the border. Right, just today, Border Patrol released video of
Speaker 3: a woman falling to her death from the border wall.
Speaker 3: Border Patrol agents stood there for twenty four minutes watching
Speaker 3: her struggle. There was a ladder, and they decided to
Speaker 3: watch her struggle until she died as she fell, and
Speaker 3: then she died well watching this like objectively tragic thing, right,
Speaker 3: Like when we think about how we get to fascism,
Speaker 3: we get to fascism when my taxes pay people to
Speaker 3: stand there and watch a woman die rather than do
Speaker 3: a single thing to help her. And then a bunch
Speaker 3: of fuck wits on the internet immediately start excusing this
Speaker 3: like it's it's so predictable that it was going to happen,
Speaker 3: and I'm just once again disgusted by the whole fucking apparatus.
Speaker 3: It's the border, I guess. So I want to talk
Speaker 3: about the things that have changed, right, and I want
Speaker 3: to talk we'll sort of start Boy outlining who Kamale
Speaker 3: is with respect to the aborder. So everything she took
Speaker 3: over from Biden, Kamala has been sort of offering more
Speaker 3: platitudes than specifics, right like her campaign is mostly based
Speaker 3: on vibes. Like I went to her campaign website to
Speaker 3: see what her stances were on the border. It is
Speaker 3: not mentioned. I think that's notable. But recently, in some
Speaker 3: speeches she did offer some concrete ideas of what her
Speaker 3: border policy might look like. So I'm going to start
Speaker 3: with her campaign ad. This ad incidentally opens with what
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure is a drone shot from Campo, California.
Speaker 3: I've taken pictures in reverse of that shot hundreds of times.
Speaker 3: You can find them on my website. Slate bought some
Speaker 3: of them off me. Maybe a month or two ago, No,
Speaker 3: not even like, maybe maybe two or three weeks ago,
Speaker 3: I guess. I watched a mother breastfeed her five month
Speaker 3: old child, maybe a couple of miles from there. It
Speaker 3: was one hundred and five degrees. We were able to
Speaker 3: give them water. I saw someone in severe hypothermia right
Speaker 3: very hot. We were able to call them off. I
Speaker 3: spoke to a Sudanese family who were really struggling with
Speaker 3: making this long walk. They have to make out there.
Speaker 3: None of that shit made it into the Karmela border advert, right,
Speaker 3: of course not. So I'm just going to play this
Speaker 3: advert for you, Shuen on the border. The choice is simple.
Speaker 10: Kamala Harris supports increasing the number of border patrol agents.
Speaker 10: Donald Trump blocked a bill to increase the number of
Speaker 10: border patrol agents. Kamala Harris supports investing in new technology
Speaker 10: to block fentanyl from entering the country. Donald Trump blocked
Speaker 10: funding for technology to block fentanyl from entering the country.
Speaker 10: Kamala Harris supports spending more money to stop human traffickers.
Speaker 10: Donald Trump blocked money to stop human traffickers. Kamala Harris
Speaker 10: prosecuted trans national gang members and got them sentenced to prison.
Speaker 10: Trump is trying to avoid being sentenced to prison. There's
Speaker 10: two choices in this election, the one who will fix
Speaker 10: a broken immigration system and the one who's trying to
Speaker 10: stop her.
Speaker 4: A cop or a clown?
Speaker 3: Who should we vote for president? And that's exactly it, right.
Speaker 3: She's leaning really heavily on this, like I am a
Speaker 3: cop thing and like we have spent and continue to
Speaker 3: spend billions of dollars on border cops. That is not
Speaker 3: the fucking solution. It never will be the solution. We
Speaker 3: cannot make this giant border so full of cops that
Speaker 3: it's impossible for people to cross it. People will still
Speaker 3: cross it because cops ain't going to go to the
Speaker 3: middle of the desert, because you know, be inherent in
Speaker 3: being a cop is also being lazy. So I want
Speaker 3: to play some stuff that she said in Atlanta this week.
Speaker 11: So here is my pledge to you. As president. I
Speaker 11: will bring back the border security bill that Donald Trump
Speaker 11: killed and I will sign it into law. And so
Speaker 11: Donald Trump, what real leadership looks like?
Speaker 3: Oh fuck off? Yeah, So I'm going to subject you
Speaker 3: to some Carmela and some Trump today. That's okay, I
Speaker 3: signed up for this, Okay. So here's another one of her,
Speaker 3: and this I think is really telling right where she
Speaker 3: is bragging about the most conservative Republicans her bill.
Speaker 11: Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been talking a
Speaker 11: big game about securing our border, but he does not
Speaker 11: walk the walk, or as my friend Quavo would say,
Speaker 11: he does not walk it like he talks it.
Speaker 12: Where if.
Speaker 11: So, Look, our administration worked on the most significant border
Speaker 11: security bill in decades. Some of the most conservative Republicans
Speaker 11: in Washington, d C. Supported the bill. Even the Border
Speaker 11: Patrol endorsed it.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to read some transcription that speech as well.
Speaker 3: Just this is pretty much the only point of data
Speaker 3: we have on her proposed border policy. So we're going
Speaker 3: heavy on this speech that she gave in Atlanta at
Speaker 3: a rally. Right, I went after transnational gangs, drug cartails,
Speaker 3: and human traffickers that came into our country legally. I
Speaker 3: prosecuted them in case after case, and I won, Harris said.
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been talking a
Speaker 3: big game about securing our border, but he does not
Speaker 3: walk the walk. That's what you just heard, right, And
Speaker 3: then she goes on to reference Quavo, which is cool
Speaker 3: and normal. So let's talk about that leadership, and let's
Speaker 3: talk about the bill she's proposing. Right. This is a
Speaker 3: bipartisan bill that was proposed last year and that didn't succeed. Right,
Speaker 3: it's the one that Democrats are making a big fuss about.
Speaker 3: Republicans getting the border bill. It's one of the only
Speaker 3: good things they've ever done, actually, because it represented a
Speaker 3: massive right wood swing from where Democrats have previously been
Speaker 3: on immigration. In the bill, DHS could close the border
Speaker 3: if border patrol encountered four thousand or more migrants on
Speaker 3: average over a seven day period. The border would then
Speaker 3: have to be shut down if encounters reached a seven
Speaker 3: day average of five thousand, or if they exceeded eighty
Speaker 3: five hundred in a single day.
Speaker 4: Does that happen on these numbers like realistic?
Speaker 3: Yes? Well, A really important thing to remember when we
Speaker 3: talk about these numbers is did you notice that it
Speaker 3: was phrases encounters, not people. So this is a thing
Speaker 3: that is apparently impossible if you write for a fucking
Speaker 3: broadsheet corporate legacy newspaper to understand an encounter does not
Speaker 3: represent a unique individual. Border patrol do not give us
Speaker 3: data on unique individuals. They give us data on encounters.
Speaker 3: And this is important because under title forty two, which
Speaker 3: I made a series about last year that you can
Speaker 3: listen to, I would like it if you did, people
Speaker 3: can be returned to Mexico. And as you'll see, and
Speaker 3: under this proposal, people can be returned to Mexico and
Speaker 3: then they will try and come back because most of
Speaker 3: the people coming to our border are not from Mexico.
Speaker 3: Nor do they have roots in Mexico, nor can they
Speaker 3: be safe in Mexico. So they will try and come back,
Speaker 3: and they will try and come back in a different place,
Speaker 3: in a more remote place, and that will result in
Speaker 3: a higher risk to their lives making that journey. Right, So,
Speaker 3: eighty five hundred individuals across the whole border doesn't mean
Speaker 3: it to have them five hundred people. But yes, those
Speaker 3: numbers are reachable.
Speaker 4: That's just so that's so disingenuous to word it that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Border Patrol just had like I don't know, they
Speaker 3: had so much success with doing this under title forty two,
Speaker 3: Like we're flooded with migrants and I've spoken to people
Speaker 3: who have tried seven times to cross. You know, it's
Speaker 3: extremely disingenuous, and I think we're going to get onto this.
Speaker 3: But this is a debate about the border happening by
Speaker 3: people who never go to the border and don't understand
Speaker 3: what it's like, both in the media and in politics,
Speaker 3: and I think that that is a problem. So when
Speaker 3: it's closed, quote unquote, now, we can't close the border
Speaker 3: right like a physically we cannot be We're not going
Speaker 3: to close the border and be like Okay, Mexico. No tomatoes, Okay,
Speaker 3: No tourists can come into Orlando now, right that that's
Speaker 3: not what it's about. Is open to capital and is
Speaker 3: open to wealthy people. All we're doing is closing it
Speaker 3: to the people who most need a help, that being
Speaker 3: people seeking asylum. Right, So when it's quote unquote closed,
Speaker 3: they would still process fourteen hundred migrants through ports of entry.
Speaker 3: That would presumably be people arriving using CBP one, which
Speaker 3: is a fatally flawed app which doesn't work for black folks,
Speaker 3: which has been hacked. All the appointments are sold booked
Speaker 3: up month in advance. You can only use it north
Speaker 3: of Mexico City. It's a complete mess. Every single migrant
Speaker 3: I have encountered has tried to use CBP one and
Speaker 3: given up. It's not even available in that many languages, right,
Speaker 3: I think is English, Spanish, and Haitian creole. Right now, Well,
Speaker 3: it's ludicrous to suggest that this is accessible, and it
Speaker 3: doesn't work very well on Samsung phones. I have a
Speaker 3: pra a foil. I guess a foyer out to CBP
Speaker 3: about that. But you know, maybe in six years, after
Speaker 3: like several court cases, I'll get it back. But I
Speaker 3: know that people are buying iPhones migrant advocates both in
Speaker 3: Mexico City and north of there to allow migrants to
Speaker 3: access the app. They're trying to help them overcome these hurdles, right,
Speaker 3: but like, fucking come on, you know, we've got the
Speaker 3: entire US government here and it's my friends trying to
Speaker 3: get five bucks from from you know whoever to buy
Speaker 3: an iPhone so migrants can share it, Like it's obscene.
Speaker 3: Only unaccompanied miners would be processed if they between ports
Speaker 3: of entry, right, So that's people under the age of
Speaker 3: eighteen without their folks, anyone who tried to cross between
Speaker 3: ports of entry. So port of entry is when you
Speaker 3: cross the border with your passport and you go through
Speaker 3: an office at support of entry. Right, So if you
Speaker 3: cross in another fashion over a river, over a wall,
Speaker 3: around a wall, under a wall, through a wall, just
Speaker 3: across the desert where there isn't a wall, that's between
Speaker 3: ports of entries. If anyone tries two or more times,
Speaker 3: then during a border emergency, they will be barred from
Speaker 3: the United States for a period I think it's a year.
Speaker 3: I should note that this bill didn't pass, but Biden
Speaker 3: did write an executive order setting an arbitry cap twenty
Speaker 3: five hundred encounters per day, which you will notice is lower.
Speaker 3: And it removed the requirement that border patrol ask migrants
Speaker 3: if they fear persecution. So this is really important. It's
Speaker 3: called a shout test. And the difference here is between
Speaker 3: me saying and ensuring you've just come across the border,
Speaker 3: are you here because you fear persecution? Can you not
Speaker 3: safely go home? And me just saying get in the
Speaker 3: fucking van, and you having to articulate that you fear persecution, right,
Speaker 3: Which is that requires them to know that they have
Speaker 3: to articulate it. It requires them to be able to
Speaker 3: articulate it in a language it's intelligible to the officer
Speaker 3: or whoever's interviewing them. Right, it's a much higher barrier.
Speaker 3: And in both cases, right, you could have the same
Speaker 3: person and they could be rejected because they didn't pass
Speaker 3: this so called shout test. It's ridiculous. It's a really
Speaker 3: bullshit workaround for someone who is clearly eligible for asylum, right. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And like any good faith actor wants to find out
Speaker 3: if that person is going to be persecuted when they
Speaker 3: go home. And so moving to a shout test like
Speaker 3: you are consciously saying some people would and to send
Speaker 3: home they will fucking die, or they will be tortured,
Speaker 3: or they will face persecution of other means, right, because
Speaker 3: they didn't articulate in the right words their fear of persecution.
Speaker 3: And it's just there is not a good faith argument
Speaker 3: for this. It's just get numbers down at the cost
Speaker 3: of human suffering. So in this case, right, I have
Speaker 3: met migrants with pretty rock solid claims. I don't want
Speaker 3: to go into the details of their cases too much.
Speaker 3: I will in the future, but like you know, I'm
Speaker 3: out at the border a lot, and I'm out in
Speaker 3: the back country there a lot, and I try and
Speaker 3: help people whenever I can. I talk to them about
Speaker 3: their claims. And I'm not going to ask someone to
Speaker 3: justify their trauma to me with seventeen documents, right, But
Speaker 3: some of them have shown me things which I do
Speaker 3: believe would would be a very cast iron assilum claim,
Speaker 3: and they seem to be since Biden's executive order just
Speaker 3: getting booted back across the border, so he kind of
Speaker 3: worked around that part of the bill failing. But let's
Speaker 3: look at what else is in it. So if the
Speaker 3: bill that Harris is saying she will reintroduce. Of course
Speaker 3: she herself can't, right, it's a legislative act or senator
Speaker 3: or how over the House would The bill would limit
Speaker 3: border closures to two hundred and seventy days, two hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty five days, and one hundred and eighty days
Speaker 3: for the first three years, which no, there's no limit
Speaker 3: in the Biden executive order, So I guess that's better.
Speaker 3: I guess I mean fucking two hundred and seventy days
Speaker 3: when you can't claim asylum, that's a lot of days.
Speaker 3: There's also funding a lot of funding for more border
Speaker 3: patrol agents, of course, more asylum officers, as well as
Speaker 3: more than one hundred judges. We do need to move
Speaker 3: people through the immigration system, but a lot more pressingly,
Speaker 3: we need to open legal passways that are not walking
Speaker 3: across the desert and passing a shout test. It would
Speaker 3: mandate detaining migrants so they try to enter the US
Speaker 3: outside of ports of entry, depending their asylum claim. So
Speaker 3: this is really big. Actually, it's going to result in
Speaker 3: a massive increase in the amount of asylum detention beds
Speaker 3: we need. The bill contains funding for another ten thousand
Speaker 3: more beds will probably end up needing more than that.
Speaker 3: But all of these beds are not in state run facilities, right,
Speaker 3: and private facilities. ICE coordinates with it's cour civic. It's
Speaker 3: people who when Biden first came into office, he wrote
Speaker 3: he wrote an executive order about getting rid of private prisons.
Speaker 3: These are the private prisons. This is how we reallocated
Speaker 3: money to those same people doing this terrible thing, right,
Speaker 3: which is locking people up for profit. I've heard terrible
Speaker 3: stories about the conditions in some of these detention centers.
Speaker 3: And this is the guy who ran on and bragged
Speaker 3: about closing down private prisons, sending more money to private
Speaker 3: prisons just for migrants dot citizens because apparently their rights
Speaker 3: don't matter as much, their lives don't matter as much.
Speaker 3: Talking of things that don't matter, Sharin, should we take
Speaker 3: an at break? That was beautiful, James, thank you. So
Speaker 3: we're back, and I want to talk about what Harris
Speaker 3: has done as VP, which is they put her on
Speaker 3: this root causes beat right, what she's supposed to go
Speaker 3: after the root causes of migration. So I want to
Speaker 3: start with this message that she sent to the people
Speaker 3: of Guatemala.
Speaker 11: I want to be clear to folks in this region
Speaker 11: who are thinking about making that dangerous track to the
Speaker 11: United States Mexico border, do not come. Do not come.
Speaker 11: The United States will continue to enforce our laws and
Speaker 11: secure our border. They are legal methods by which migration
Speaker 11: can and should occur. But we, as one of our priorities,
Speaker 11: will discourage illegal migration. And I believe if you come
Speaker 11: to our border, you will be turned back.
Speaker 3: Do not come. Yeah, I think I've seen that before. Yeah.
Speaker 3: She took a lot of shit for that one, rightly understandably.
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not the only time to bide. Administration
Speaker 3: said this. By the way, they were tweeting do not
Speaker 3: comb in Haitian creole in twenty twenty one from the
Speaker 3: Embassy of the United States in eighty. This has been
Speaker 3: their message and continues to be their message.
Speaker 7: Now to the ongoing crisis down to the southern border.
Speaker 14: The focus of Vice President Kamala Harris's first overseas trip
Speaker 14: since taking office.
Speaker 15: She had some Mexico today after spending yesterday in Guatemala,
Speaker 15: where she announced several initiatives and delivered a message to
Speaker 15: potential migrants there, do not come to the United States.
Speaker 15: The Vice President also sat down exclusively with the NBC's
Speaker 15: Lester Hoole, who began by asking her about that warning.
Speaker 14: In the news conference here in Guatemala City. You had
Speaker 14: a message for would be migrants, don't come. Why should
Speaker 14: they believe you when they know that people are getting in.
Speaker 11: I've been working on this issue for a very long
Speaker 11: time and the kind of violence and danger that is
Speaker 11: associated with that track. Actually, when we're talking about from
Speaker 11: Guatemala through Mexico to the United States, it's extremely dangerous.
Speaker 11: We are looking at a situation where people are fleeing
Speaker 11: because of hunger, because of the hurricanes, because of the pandemic.
Speaker 11: So the reason I am here is to address those issues.
Speaker 11: Knowing that the people who are here for generations, they
Speaker 11: want to stay, they don't want to leave, but they
Speaker 11: need opportunity, they need assistance, they need support.
Speaker 14: Americans don't see a lot of them on a daily basis.
Speaker 14: What they do see it at their own border, children
Speaker 14: being lowered over offences, children coming in with phone numbers
Speaker 14: stenciled on their hand. And so the question has come up,
Speaker 14: and you heard it here and you'll hear it again,
Speaker 14: I'm sure it is why not visit the border? Why
Speaker 14: not see what Americans are seeing in this crisis.
Speaker 11: Well, we are going to the border. We have to
Speaker 11: deal with what's happening at the border. There's no question
Speaker 11: about that. That's not a debatable point. But we have
Speaker 11: to understand that there's a reason people are arriving at
Speaker 11: our border and ask what is that reason, and then
Speaker 11: identify the problem so we can fix it.
Speaker 3: Okay. So all of this was while the Biden administration
Speaker 3: continued to defend and force Title forty two. If people
Speaker 3: haven't listened to the series that made about Title forty two,
Speaker 3: and I've said that twice, but that's like two three
Speaker 3: hours of me explaining Title forty two, so that would
Speaker 3: explain it better than a cand in twenty seconds. Here,
Speaker 3: Title forty two is a public health law, and the
Speaker 3: idea of Title forty two is to prevent people with
Speaker 3: tuberculosis coming into the United States. An element of Title
Speaker 3: forty two of the United States Code it contains this.
Speaker 3: The idea was never to use it as a de
Speaker 3: facto block on asylum, which is what the Trump administration
Speaker 3: did for a year and the Biden administration did for
Speaker 3: nearly three years. The Bidens Registration did it for much
Speaker 3: much longer. This ended in May of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 3: and it was used. They called it catch and release, right.
Speaker 3: It was used to bounce people straight back. As we
Speaker 3: spoke about before.
Speaker 4: Catch and release. It's like you're literally like an animal practice,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 3: Like right, yeah, like these people are fucking fish, and
Speaker 3: I don't like doing that to fish. Personally, I shouldn't
Speaker 3: stress out of fish. It's just vibing down there. Don't
Speaker 3: ruin its day. So later in that same interview, she
Speaker 3: was very defensive about her failing to visit the border.
Speaker 3: But I think there are very reasonable questions. Sometimes these
Speaker 3: criticisms are used in bad faith by Republicans, So is
Speaker 3: everything right? It doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about this.
Speaker 3: We should. I didn't see a single elected official from
Speaker 3: the Democrat Party. I guess fucking Jim Desmond turned up,
Speaker 3: but I wish he wouldn't. He turned up, told lies
Speaker 3: about who paid for the aid, and then forced his
Speaker 3: in turn to apologize for it when a bunch of
Speaker 3: people turned up at his office. Really great integrity. I
Speaker 3: didn't see a single Democrat for the months that border
Speaker 3: patrol held thousands of people in open air attention without food, water,
Speaker 3: or shelter, and for the months of my friends and
Speaker 3: I took care of them instead. What was doing was
Speaker 3: trying to connect business leaders with economies in Central America
Speaker 3: to quote create jobs. Right. She has some success with
Speaker 3: a Japanese car factor in Guatemala and a Swiss coffee
Speaker 3: processor buying more beans and committing to more coffee purchases. Right.
Speaker 3: But this shit does not work and it has never worked. Right. Obviously,
Speaker 3: my position on global economics is not the same as hers.
Speaker 3: But we can't trickle down the causes of migration. We
Speaker 3: can't do this with like a rising tide levels or
Speaker 3: boat GDP stuff. Even if we do buy this kind
Speaker 3: of freakonomics tier bullshit, it doesn't matter because the change
Speaker 3: is going to take decades to come.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 3: You can't just just change a national economy. Change deals
Speaker 3: with unemployment, with violence, with state violence, with nonstate violence overnight.
Speaker 3: And it's very likely that the pace of climate change
Speaker 3: alone will outstrip any benefits that these programs provide. Right,
Speaker 3: Because we are seeing increasingly people coming from countries that
Speaker 3: are the most impacted by climate change to countries like
Speaker 3: the United States, one of the countries that has made
Speaker 3: the largest contribution to the climate change. Right, But this
Speaker 3: idea of like trickle down economics to stop migration, it
Speaker 3: doesn't address the issue that most of the migrants are
Speaker 3: no longer coming from the places she's going, right, So
Speaker 3: she's worked pretty extensively in the Northern Triangle, Guatemala, Hondoras,
Speaker 3: in El Salvador. These are places which sent a lot
Speaker 3: of migrants. May be in the earlier Barber administration, but
Speaker 3: that's not the case anymore. Right, those are not typically
Speaker 3: places I see migrants from, right, I see migrants from Venezuela,
Speaker 3: and we're going to get a lot more of those.
Speaker 3: I see migrants from Turkey, many of them, but not
Speaker 3: all of them, Kurdish. I see migrants from North Africa.
Speaker 3: I see migrants from the Sahel. I see migrants from India.
Speaker 3: I don't particularly see people from the Northern Triangle. So
Speaker 3: the idea that like lifting the economy in the Northern
Speaker 3: Triangle is going to move the needle. It's just not.
Speaker 3: Even if we buy the idea that it's possible, I
Speaker 3: don't think it is. So that's calmer. Let's take a
Speaker 3: look at Donald Trump. I guess I should give people
Speaker 3: a trigger warning I'm only going to include a little
Speaker 3: bit of Donald Trump audio here, but yeah, you can
Speaker 3: tap the skit button if you don't want to hear
Speaker 3: Donald Trump talking. So, Donald Trump's policies largely are in
Speaker 3: response to things that are not real or proposing things
Speaker 3: that the president or Congress cannot do, or that the
Speaker 3: president cannot do without the support of Congress. So his
Speaker 3: first thing is talking about ending birthright citizenship. This is
Speaker 3: not a thing that he can do by executive order, right.
Speaker 3: This is an amendment to the Constitution that requires an
Speaker 3: amendment to the Constitution to party back. Now, you can
Speaker 3: mend the constitution, but I don't think you'd ever get
Speaker 3: support for ending birth right citizenship. Right. This has been
Speaker 3: the case since after the Civil War, and it exists
Speaker 3: to stop people disenfranchising the children of formally enslaved people.
Speaker 9: Under Biden's current policies, even though these millions of illegal
Speaker 9: border crosses have entered the country unlawfully, all of their
Speaker 9: future children will become automatic US citizens. Can you imagine
Speaker 9: They'll be eligible for welfare, taxpayer funded healthcare, the rate
Speaker 9: to vote, chain migration, and countless other government benefits, many
Speaker 9: of which will also profit the illegal alien parents. This
Speaker 9: policy is a reward for breaking the laws of the
Speaker 9: United States and is obviously a magnet helping draw the
Speaker 9: flood of illegals across our borders. They come by the
Speaker 9: millions and millions and minions.
Speaker 3: So another thing that don Trump wants to do is
Speaker 3: do away with the Diversity Visa program. Are you familiar
Speaker 3: with the Diversity visa.
Speaker 4: No, I'm going to say no, I'm familiar with it,
Speaker 4: but I have to like know what it is in detail,
Speaker 4: So please tell me, James.
Speaker 3: Okay, I would love to tell you. Sharing the DV program.
Speaker 3: I will avoid using the acronymagine because can be unfortunately
Speaker 3: send us down. Yeah, they were just sending cops all
Speaker 3: over the world. Yeah. The Diversity Visa program, better known
Speaker 3: as the Green Card Lottery, allows about fifty five thousand
Speaker 3: or exactly fifty five thousand in theory, immigrant visas a
Speaker 3: year for individuals from countries that are underrepresented in the
Speaker 3: US immigration system. I remember that. Well, that sounds familiar. Yes, okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: so like you'll meet people almost everywhere I go. I
Speaker 3: tend not to go to countries that are highly represented
Speaker 3: in the US immigration system, right, those being countries that
Speaker 3: find it easier for people to get visas like h
Speaker 3: one B's right because they are more economically maybe close
Speaker 3: to the United States and have educational credentials that translate across.
Speaker 3: So the Trump administration had made the diversity visa program
Speaker 3: it's such a massive cluster fuck that it effectively didn't work.
Speaker 3: And the way that this happened was because you don't
Speaker 3: just win the green card lottery and they mail a
Speaker 3: green cards to your house, like come on over, Bud,
Speaker 3: you win the lottery, and that gives you the right
Speaker 3: to go to the EMBAS set to do an interview,
Speaker 3: and then you make the application. Right then the check
Speaker 3: you off on any checklist you might be on, all
Speaker 3: the stuff that would normally apply to a migrant. It's
Speaker 3: not like an amnust visa. And what the Trump administration
Speaker 3: did was make it very hard for people to get
Speaker 3: these appointments, especially during COVID and this has been the
Speaker 3: case with the Bide administration as well. They get the
Speaker 3: lowest priority now the cambuc and appointment that other people's
Speaker 3: stuff gets to sort of overtake them in the line, right,
Speaker 3: because you only have a year from receiving it to
Speaker 3: claiming it. De facto. This means that people don't get
Speaker 3: it right, So we are not fifty five thousand people
Speaker 3: are not coming because of the diversity visa. Even if
Speaker 3: they were, this is not very many people. And like
Speaker 3: it's just Trump. I don't know, maybe he saw the
Speaker 3: phrase diversity and became triggered. But it's a weird little bugbear,
Speaker 3: which I guess if you can focus on weird little things.
Speaker 3: But still, the diversity visa is great. The people I
Speaker 3: know who often most deserve visas people who can't even
Speaker 3: afford to make the trip right to walk here or
Speaker 3: you know, if you're not in the continental Americas, it's
Speaker 3: a lot more expensive you have to fly. I guess
Speaker 3: you could take a vote. But some of those people.
Speaker 3: I thank my friend who driving all around Iraq is
Speaker 3: applying for a diversity visa, and like, I really hope
Speaker 3: he gets it. Lovely man. Trump also has this buck
Speaker 3: there about DHS paying benefits to quote illegal aliens.
Speaker 9: Crookie Joe Biden is running a NonStop conveyor belt importing.
Speaker 3: Illegal aliens from all over.
Speaker 9: The world into our country, and the Biden Department of
Speaker 9: Homeland Security is abusing it. So called parole authority to
Speaker 9: give them more governmental benefits than many law abiding citizens,
Speaker 9: including our vets. Our vets are being taken advantage of,
Speaker 9: Our citizens are being taken advantage of. It's very unfair
Speaker 9: and it's not going to stand.
Speaker 3: The Department of how my security doesn't pay and benefits
Speaker 3: to anyone. I guess it pays like border patrol agents
Speaker 3: and people who work for it, but it's not giving
Speaker 3: anyone public benefits. Right. Undocumented people are normally ineligible for
Speaker 3: most benefits, even people who do have legal status, and
Speaker 3: he consistently conflates asylum seekers with undocumented people, right, maybe
Speaker 3: because he genuinely doesn't know the difference, and it doesn't
Speaker 3: care to learn the difference. Even people who have legal
Speaker 3: status face a range of hurdles, like sometimes they have
Speaker 3: a forty quarter work bar for example, right, so that
Speaker 3: it means you have to have been working for forty
Speaker 3: periods of three months consecutively. Again, this is kind of
Speaker 3: He might be talking about something called the public charge rule,
Speaker 3: which can interfere with your citizenship or visa application if
Speaker 3: you've taken certain times of benefits. So maybe he's looking
Speaker 3: to make that a little bit broader. But again it's
Speaker 3: really unclear, and it's kind of identity politics s grifting.
Speaker 3: The next thing is we're getting towards QAnon territory. Now, great, I.
Speaker 9: Will use Title forty two to end the child traffic
Speaker 9: in crisis by returning all trafphic children to their families
Speaker 9: in their home countries and without delay. And I will
Speaker 9: urge Congress to ensure that anyone caught traffic in children
Speaker 9: of course our border receives the death penalty immediately, and
Speaker 9: that includes also for women, because women, as you know,
Speaker 9: are number one in trafficking children are actually number two.
Speaker 3: This is some weird shit. First of all, right, but
Speaker 3: he talks about using Title forty two. This is not,
Speaker 3: as I've talked about three times now, what Title forty
Speaker 3: two is for. It's very obvious that he thinks Title
Speaker 3: forty two is immigration law, because he very obviously used
Speaker 3: it as that. Right. He was not using Title forty
Speaker 3: two to stop people getting COVID because he did square
Speaker 3: root of fuckles stop people getting COVID, right, and there
Speaker 3: were not exemptions for vaccinated people. It's very obvious that
Speaker 3: they use Title forty two cynically as an immigration law.
Speaker 3: That is not what it is. Also deporting someone back
Speaker 3: to the situation they were trafficked from. Maybe not smart,
Speaker 3: like maybe maybe especially a miner who is trafficked here,
Speaker 3: maybe we could help them, you know, one of the
Speaker 3: richest countries the manager has ever seen. Maybe not just
Speaker 3: bumping them straight back to that country, maybe showing a
Speaker 3: little bit of compassion. Human trafficking is a problem, but
Speaker 3: this is not the solution. So Harris kind of touts
Speaker 3: her prosecutorial experience when she talks about human trafficking. She's
Speaker 3: actually been better than some not punishing people who were trafficked, right,
Speaker 3: So I was reading that at one point she asked
Speaker 3: prosecutors not to use the term teenage prostitute because like,
Speaker 3: that's not really a thing. What we're seeing there is
Speaker 3: somebody who is being trafficked, right, or somebody who has
Speaker 3: been victimized to taken advantage of manipulated, and seeing them
Speaker 3: as perpetrators is fundamentally missing the fucking problem. And this
Speaker 3: is what the legal system does far too often, right,
Speaker 3: is it goes after the people who are the vactims,
Speaker 3: not the criminals. She twice brought criminal charges against backpage
Speaker 3: dot Com, which is a website. I guess what peop
Speaker 3: book and like find escorts. I'm not familiar with these things,
Speaker 3: but I know that some sex workers were opposed to
Speaker 3: that because they felt it drove them kind of onto
Speaker 3: more underground platforms, which which were even more risky to them.
Speaker 3: But obviously if people were also being trafficked on this platform,
Speaker 3: So like her record, I guess it is somewhat mixed.
Speaker 3: You know what else is somewhat mixed? Shereen what James,
Speaker 3: it's the products and services that we get to support
Speaker 3: this show. You know, sometimes it's the cops. Sometimes it's
Speaker 3: terrible coffee, sometimes it's gold. You never know what you're
Speaker 3: going to get. Ooh, we are backed, and we are
Speaker 3: back to one of Donald Trump's oldest chestnutes, and that
Speaker 3: would be his stupid wall right that he wants to build.
Speaker 9: We created the most secure border in US history, by far,
Speaker 9: dealing a major blow to the cartels and traffickers. We
Speaker 9: built hundreds of miles of war, We renovated hundreds of
Speaker 9: miles of war.
Speaker 3: We never had anything like it.
Speaker 9: And then I got Mexico free of charge to give
Speaker 9: us twenty eight thousand soldiers to protect us from people
Speaker 9: coming into our country illegally.
Speaker 3: He talks about building hundreds of miles of wall. He
Speaker 3: sets up a couple of times. Right, we've renovated hundreds
Speaker 3: of mile the wall. You know, did they build hundreds that?
Speaker 3: Maybe just technically that they really fudged the numbers. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I found a lot of freedom of information requests for that.
Speaker 3: I guess what's more relevant is that Biden also built
Speaker 3: the wall, right, mm hmm, calm, that's not talking about it.
Speaker 3: But as we've documented numerous times, Biden has continued to
Speaker 3: build the wall. He's continued to build the barrier, which
Speaker 3: is a wall. He has repaired other sections of war,
Speaker 3: he has upgraded sections of fence to wall. They're both
Speaker 3: doing this, right. There's maybe Donald Trump would do more
Speaker 3: of it, but sometimes I feel like his general and
Speaker 3: competence might prevent him from doing any more than Biden's.
Speaker 3: Like potent migrant. If they call it deterrents, right, deterrence
Speaker 3: through death, it is probably a better way of phrasing it.
Speaker 3: Trump also talks about a total ban on taxpair dollars
Speaker 3: to give legal aid to undocumented people. Again, I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if he knows what he's talking about. I don't
Speaker 3: know what he's talking about. He might be referring to it.
Speaker 3: We have a program in San Diego County where San
Speaker 3: Diego County pays for some people to defend migrants who
Speaker 3: are detained by ICE, right so they can have access
Speaker 3: to a lawyer. ICE has responded to that by moving
Speaker 3: those people to Texas. Oh that makes sense, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: totally normal. Good, I'm glad we voted for the anti
Speaker 3: fascist guy. Everything's going great, exactly. You can listen to
Speaker 3: my episode about that if you want to know more
Speaker 3: about that. But I don't know if he means like
Speaker 3: they don't get public defenders if they're accused of a crime. Certainly.
Speaker 4: Isn't it just true that he can also just like
Speaker 4: use these trigger words to make people mad.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that is what he's doing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's not necessari always has to be base
Speaker 4: in fact.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, that's to be found with Donald Trump. This
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. And then finally, talking of stuff that doesn't
Speaker 3: have to be real, it's absolutely batshit insane idea of
Speaker 3: fucking invading Mexico to kill members of cartels, which that's unhinged. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that is unhinged. That will resolve in more violence, It
Speaker 3: will result in more instability. It will result in more death.
Speaker 3: I think Car'm's pretty much unclear when it comes to
Speaker 3: that one, Like she is not proposing invading Mexico. So
Speaker 3: much of what Donald Trump says is insane and it
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense. So I wanted to look at some
Speaker 3: of the people who kind of lean on Trump, some
Speaker 3: of the people who might be a little bit more
Speaker 3: coherent right when it comes to crafting that policy. Right?
Speaker 3: Could it get Steven Mirror on the podcast sad? But
Speaker 3: we did get these people from the Texas Public Policy
Speaker 3: Foundation who Robert and Gare spoke to at the Republican
Speaker 3: National Convention. So here's zem talking about visas and immigration.
Speaker 8: I've tried to hire people from other countries. It takes
Speaker 8: months and months and months to get that done. It
Speaker 8: usually spend a lot of money doing it as well,
Speaker 8: and the system is disincentivized to do that. So you know,
Speaker 8: actually during the last Trump administration, they started looking at like,
Speaker 8: let's reduce the number of visas and have broader categories, right,
Speaker 8: So I think they're trying to get down to about
Speaker 8: seventeen visas, get to more marit based program to fit
Speaker 8: the needs that we have. Make sure that you can
Speaker 8: you know, it's not about like what is the total number,
Speaker 8: But if we are needing labor, we needing people in
Speaker 8: these areas, you can you can kind of like as
Speaker 8: a dial, you can turn up and down in certain
Speaker 8: areas on certain visas. And so I think if you
Speaker 8: do have to first like stop the problem, and then
Speaker 8: you also have to make systemic changes that will overhaul
Speaker 8: the system and make a lot easier so that people
Speaker 8: are incentivised to actually do it the right way.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So these people aren't stupid, right, they won't just
Speaker 3: spew hate. Yeah, They're much more competent in the facts.
Speaker 3: So I think what we're seeing here, right is this
Speaker 3: undoubtedly is a way to reduce what they see is
Speaker 3: undesirable migration, which is to say, poor people and brown people.
Speaker 3: You can phrase however you want it, right, But.
Speaker 4: I mean, in the Republican's eyes, and maybe a lot
Speaker 4: of people eyes, all migration is undesirable migration.
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, well, people will talk to me.
Speaker 3: I'm for those of you who have just listened to me.
Speaker 3: I guess a white person.
Speaker 4: British, You're not white, you're British.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Love, which is more like a kind of translucent
Speaker 3: really you think about it. Yeah, so yeah, I am
Speaker 3: a British person, which is important, I guess because people
Speaker 3: will talk to me about immigration like I'm one of
Speaker 3: the good migrants and they can go fuck themselves. Yeah
Speaker 3: that position, right, that like it's a like implicit white
Speaker 3: people are okay. Yeah, absolutely, that's all that means.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, yeah, you speak English and you're like me, great,
Speaker 4: come out, come on into my racist country.
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. Yeah, I'm like funny foreign as opposed to
Speaker 3: like evil foreign. I guess.
Speaker 4: I think it's also just like they don't see you
Speaker 4: and whatever in their mind is a three right like
Speaker 4: to I don't know, it makes no sense logically.
Speaker 3: But yeah it does if you understand it's relents of race.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but I mean their perspective makes no.
Speaker 3: Sense to me. Yeah. Same people who are barking about
Speaker 3: my fellow British people being a threat because they happened
Speaker 3: to be Muslim, right or brown or seek in people
Speaker 3: that don't understand it seeks Anonymouslims. So what we actually
Speaker 3: need is more legal pathways. He is correct that the
Speaker 3: visa system needs changing, and we need ways that people
Speaker 3: can apply and come here safely and not have to
Speaker 3: be trafficked and not have to take massive risks, right.
Speaker 3: I wanted to see what Robert and Geh had asked
Speaker 3: some about this mass deportation seeing because I've seen some
Speaker 3: people holding like mass importations now sign at the RNC,
Speaker 3: and that's always a good sign that we're not sort
Speaker 3: of sidestepping into fascism. So let's hear what you said
Speaker 3: about that.
Speaker 12: Is that plan kind of the mass detention and expulsion
Speaker 12: of undocumented migrants in the US something that you think
Speaker 12: is a good idea, something you support as the Heritage Foundations.
Speaker 8: Yeah, generally, you know, obviously there you got to look
Speaker 8: at implementation, right and how you actually go about doing
Speaker 8: that in the right way. But yeah, absolutely generally.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 12: And then what kind of time frame then, because you
Speaker 12: just said this is something you have to like lay
Speaker 12: some groundwork on, and what time frame do you see
Speaker 12: it being feasible to carry out something like that?
Speaker 8: You know, I actually don't have a good answer for that,
Speaker 8: because you have to first get your arms around the problem.
Speaker 8: We don't even know how many people are here, and
Speaker 8: you don't know where they come from, and so it's
Speaker 8: not like you're just trying to deport them all just
Speaker 8: to Mexico or something like that, or the southern border, right, Like,
Speaker 8: you you have to first get your arms around the problem.
Speaker 8: That's the first step, and then I think from there
Speaker 8: you can actually understand figure out what a reasonable time
Speaker 8: frame to do that is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is pretty fucked. Like I should point
Speaker 3: out that the Bilbah Harris is proposing also proposes bumping
Speaker 3: people back to Mexico without the permission of Mexico.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I think so many of these policies just rely on
Speaker 3: Mexico being kind of a sponge for US policy, like, oh,
Speaker 3: they'll they'll be fine, like God forbid Mexico actors a
Speaker 3: sovereign country. But this one seems different. Right. We had
Speaker 3: I feel like, pretty good liberal support on abolish ice
Speaker 3: under Trump that has completely evaporated under Biden. But because
Speaker 3: we solved racism and everything. Yeah, yeah, we fixed it.
Speaker 3: I've forgotten about that. Yeah, that was that was the
Speaker 3: big crunch point. So what this means is taking people
Speaker 3: who have homes, lives, jobs, and families and tearing them
Speaker 3: away from one of those things and tending them back
Speaker 3: to a country that they may not have been to
Speaker 3: in decades, that they may never have been to at all,
Speaker 3: a place where they will undoubtedly face hardship, if not persecution,
Speaker 3: and certainly having lived here having family here will make
Speaker 3: them more likely to be ransomed or blackmailed or any
Speaker 3: of these things that happened to migrants when they're deported. Right,
Speaker 3: this is pretty bleak. Like I guess Harris hasn't advocated
Speaker 3: for this, which seeing the amount of the amount of
Speaker 3: people who fucking respond to my tweets with your going
Speaker 3: home to like I A am a US citizen and
Speaker 3: b fuck you. They yeah all the time, all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's so funny. Okay, got a life, But yeah, it
Speaker 3: does seem that there is a wing of the Trump
Speaker 3: And I talked to Trump people. I was in the
Speaker 3: mountains this weekend, like I was in Wyoming mincing about
Speaker 3: in the mountains. It's lovely, but in talk to some
Speaker 3: people and I've never really come across anyone who can
Speaker 3: like in the flesh. Maybe it's just because those people
Speaker 3: are so repulsive. I wouldn't talk to them, and it's
Speaker 3: probably quite likely. But advocated for this right, like this
Speaker 3: idea of mass deportations, Like like I said at the
Speaker 3: start of this show, like how does a country get
Speaker 3: into full on fascism? It is this. It is my
Speaker 3: taxes and your taxes, and some of the people who
Speaker 3: are listening taxes paying for people who have done nothing wrong, right,
Speaker 3: who have lived here, who haven't done any crimes, who
Speaker 3: haven't hurt anyone, to be at our expense, expelled from
Speaker 3: their home, detained in a private prison, who's own a company,
Speaker 3: make massive donations to politicians, and then flown across the
Speaker 3: world at are expense, and then dumped into a country
Speaker 3: where they no longer belong. And that is as close
Speaker 3: as we get, I think to like someone saying like
Speaker 3: send them to the camps without saying that, like, yeah, look,
Speaker 3: what was the Armenian genocide? The Armenian genocide was a
Speaker 3: mass deportation, right of people forced to walk across the
Speaker 3: desert and die on the way. Like if you don't
Speaker 3: think this Trump ship is fascist, like I really don't
Speaker 3: know what to do. It doesn't matter if it's fascist
Speaker 3: or not, right, Like this is the kind of rhetoric
Speaker 3: that's genocidal. Like I don't want to argue about like
Speaker 3: Robert Preston and like different definitions because that doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: Like this shit is it is genocidal, It is dehumanizing migrants,
Speaker 3: which is been a project of the right wing news
Speaker 3: media and increasingly the liberal news media and also the
Speaker 3: Democrat Party now apparently as well as the Republicans. But
Speaker 3: this is a market step to the right. Both of
Speaker 3: these are right. The Overton window has moved so far
Speaker 3: right on migration in the last eight years that it's
Speaker 3: almost an unrecognizable place. And I guess what I when
Speaker 3: I end up by saying what I always say about
Speaker 3: this is like the solution is not within the argument
Speaker 3: about who to vote foreh Like these are state policies.
Speaker 3: These are also often set by the legislature, as we
Speaker 3: saw when Biden's board bill failed, right, and that would
Speaker 3: require a change in the legislature, Like there isn't a
Speaker 3: third party that can get a majority in the legislature
Speaker 3: right now. So the way we fix this is ourselves,
Speaker 3: right like we are seeing in the UK right now,
Speaker 3: like violence towards Muslim people and itance towards masques, violence
Speaker 3: towards Islamic cultural centers and people stepping up to defend
Speaker 3: them like that is the only way we fix this
Speaker 3: is by stepping up and shouldering our responsibility to our communities,
Speaker 3: and people did that in the Trump administration to a degree,
Speaker 3: Like when I'm twenty eighteen, when I was down in
Speaker 3: Tijuana looking after folks who were part of the caravan
Speaker 3: that Trump made a big spectacle in the midterms. People
Speaker 3: showed up, churches, showed up, a soccer mom showed up
Speaker 3: in minivans and helped us, and it was cool. The
Speaker 3: thing was fucked, but like, I respect that we look
Speaker 3: after those people, and that hasn't happened to as much
Speaker 3: of a degree since. And we've had more people than
Speaker 3: we had in twenty eighteen in the open air detention sites.
Speaker 3: And so I guess where I want to end is
Speaker 3: whoever wins, it's still our responsibility to take care of migrants,
Speaker 3: because neither of them is going to And we are
Speaker 3: continuing with policies that will accelerate climate change, We are
Speaker 3: continuing with policies that will impoverish people all over the
Speaker 3: world and enriching people who are already super wealthy, and
Speaker 3: those things will continue to drive migration. We can't change
Speaker 3: those things in an actionable amount of time, but what
Speaker 3: we can do is try our best to meet people
Speaker 3: who come here with Kindness and so yeah, I would
Speaker 3: urge you to do that. I guess if you want
Speaker 3: to volunteer, you can email Altro Lado It's ala Trelado
Speaker 3: dot org. Border Kindness always need your money, borderlind Relief Collective,
Speaker 3: always need your money. And those are always things that
Speaker 3: you can volunteer with or places you can say your
Speaker 3: money if you don't have your time. But you can
Speaker 3: also organize in your own neighborhood. I'm speaking to some
Speaker 3: people today who are organizing in Maryland to take care
Speaker 3: of some Kurdish refugees who I know, like they weren't
Speaker 3: doing anything a year ago, right, they saw a need
Speaker 3: and they saw it being a met and they realized
Speaker 3: that they could meet it, and they've made a huge
Speaker 3: difference to people's lives. So like, wherever you are, there
Speaker 3: are migas in your community and you can do that too.
Speaker 3: Welcome to it could happen here.
Speaker 6: I'm Garrison Davis and today I'm joined with the authors
Speaker 6: Shane Burley and Ben Laubert who have a new book
Speaker 6: out called A Safety through Solidarity, A Radical Guide to
Speaker 6: Fighting Anti Semitism, and Jane reached out to me to
Speaker 6: talk about both the book and a variety of issues
Speaker 6: revolving around this topic. Thank you for coming on, both
Speaker 6: of you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks for having us on.
Speaker 16: Yeah yeah, thanks for having us so.
Speaker 6: A few months ago I put out an episode looking
Speaker 6: at a genuine uptick in anti Semitic incidents that have
Speaker 6: happened in the United States and Europe, and sometimes it
Speaker 6: feels kind of like a tricky thing to talk about.
Speaker 6: In some ways, it's like you're threading a very difficult needle.
Speaker 6: It's like you're caught between a rock and a hard
Speaker 6: place when discussing this topic, because if you point to
Speaker 6: an actual trend that you're seeing showing a genuine spike
Speaker 6: in anti Semitic incidents, there's like a subset of people
Speaker 6: who are very focused on the genocide in Gaza, very
Speaker 6: rightly so, but they might push back since claims of
Speaker 6: anti Semitism have been so conflated with any display of
Speaker 6: anti Zionist politics, or even worse, they might even question,
Speaker 6: why are you talking about this when there's this other
Speaker 6: horrible thing going on right the actual genocide in Gaza. Now,
Speaker 6: I think, meanwhile, if you avoid this as a lesser
Speaker 6: or a non issue, if if you don't talk about
Speaker 6: these things. I would argue that actually strengthens the Zionist
Speaker 6: political project of tying Jewish safety solely to the state
Speaker 6: of Israel. And in some ways, I think ignoring this
Speaker 6: entire issue legitimizes a degree of criticisms that are being
Speaker 6: leveled against these massive protests and calls for a ceasefire
Speaker 6: and justice in Palestine. So, I guess how long have
Speaker 6: you been putting together this book and how much did
Speaker 6: the war in Gaza this past year kind of change
Speaker 6: the scope of it as you were writing this?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean we started I think Ben and I
Speaker 7: started talking about this and in the twenty nineteen beginning
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty, so it's a totally It was a
Speaker 7: totally different context when we started working on the book,
Speaker 7: and what we had been wanting was actually to sort
Speaker 7: of like drive a wedge into what you're talking about here,
Speaker 7: which is like that there isn't really good discourse on
Speaker 7: what anti Semitism actually is that takes it seriously, that
Speaker 7: doesn't just kind of deflect and project onto anti Zionism.
Speaker 7: Since Ben and then I both come from like a
Speaker 7: history of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement and me with
Speaker 7: Students for Justice Palestine on campus, then with the Jewish
Speaker 7: Voice for Peace. So we had seemed to basically firsthand
Speaker 7: how accusations of anti semitism basically leveled just constantly at
Speaker 7: Palastine solidarity protesters, and then also in research and covering
Speaker 7: the far right, seeing obviously the growth of anti Semitism
Speaker 7: in white nationalism, both in the US and internationally, and
Speaker 7: that only increased increased over time. So we wanted to
Speaker 7: work on something that took that seriously and also sort
Speaker 7: of revive different traditions from the left that talk about
Speaker 7: anti semitism, whether it's anti fascism or different kind of
Speaker 7: Marxist trends or the Jewish left kind of bring it
Speaker 7: to one place, talk to other folks who are also
Speaker 7: taking it seriously, and weave that together. All of that
Speaker 7: is different. And before October seventh, because we were turning
Speaker 7: in the draft of a book like a matter of
Speaker 7: days after October seventh happened, Oh wow. We went and
Speaker 7: talked to the publisher and we're like, well, the whole
Speaker 7: world just changed. I mean, we have to we have
Speaker 7: to make changes the beat it. And so we've made
Speaker 7: some and basically like address some questions there and I
Speaker 7: think you can kind of see the in the conclusion
Speaker 7: of like the very end of the book kind of
Speaker 7: where we cut it off in November December area and
Speaker 7: sort of have acknowledge that things are different here. But
Speaker 7: I think that there's also bigger questions that we're talking
Speaker 7: about now that like we're doing interviews and writing articles
Speaker 7: and stuff afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot
Speaker 7: of this really I think one thing that's important is
Speaker 7: that because we make very clear, like very incredibly clear,
Speaker 7: the anti Zionism not the same as anti semitism, in
Speaker 7: a way, that conversation is the same as before, because
Speaker 7: we're actually talking about where real anti Semitism lives. And
Speaker 7: if you look at the way that this course is now,
Speaker 7: particularly from groups like the Defamation League, is it's basically
Speaker 7: built entirely around, you know, attacking college protests, right, attacking
Speaker 7: these mass anti genocide demonstrations, right. And since that's so
Speaker 7: foundationally different than how we understand anti semitism, there's a
Speaker 7: way in which, like the conversation that has the book
Speaker 7: is sort of the same. And what do you think
Speaker 7: about this, Ben.
Speaker 13: Yeah, I know, I mean I agree that it really
Speaker 13: hasn't changed that much. Even though it's just a lot
Speaker 13: bigger and more prominent, and the forces that are trying
Speaker 13: to attack the Movement for Justice and past that are stronger.
Speaker 13: They're trying to pass legislation taking away our free speech rights.
Speaker 13: They're trying to restrict academic freedom, They're trying to go
Speaker 13: after the irs status.
Speaker 16: Of justice organizations. So the stakes are really high.
Speaker 13: But I think the intervention that we've always been wanting
Speaker 13: to make is to really put the conversation backward along
Speaker 13: on the rise of the far right, on the rise
Speaker 13: of white Christian nationalism. Right anti Semitism is part of
Speaker 13: the right wing worldview. It's just like the other systems
Speaker 13: of oppression, like anti blackness, anti LGBTQ, bigotry, Islamophobia, anti
Speaker 13: immigrant xenophobia, Anti Semitism is deeply connected. Right, these George
Speaker 13: Soros conspiracies are being used by authoritarian leaders like Donald
Speaker 13: Trump and JB. Evans and the rest of them to
Speaker 13: build up the MAGA base and to attack the foundations
Speaker 13: of our multi racial democracy. And we've seen it have
Speaker 13: deadly results for Jews and for other groups. You know,
Speaker 13: white nationalists, you know mass shooters who are motivated by
Speaker 13: anti semic conspiracy theories have attacked synagogues, have attacked Latin
Speaker 13: X communities like black communities, and so yeah, anti Semitism
Speaker 13: is part of that machinery of oppression. And so our
Speaker 13: book tries to reframe the conversation and give Justice Organizer
Speaker 13: a way to take back the conversation away from the right.
Speaker 6: Would what have you be willing to give, like a
Speaker 6: workable definition of anti Semitism, because this is a word
Speaker 6: that's certainly been used a lot, but I think it's
Speaker 6: a word that signifies possibly a lot of different things.
Speaker 6: And I guess what is the definition of anti Semitism
Speaker 6: that you are using in your book.
Speaker 13: Yes, so Att, we really see anti Semitism as a
Speaker 13: form of conspiracy theory thinking that developed out of Christianity
Speaker 13: in Christian Europe, and that essentially sees Jews as the
Speaker 13: root cause of evil or the root cause of the
Speaker 13: world's problems, kind of behind the scenes. It trades in
Speaker 13: images of a cabal lurking behind either government or the
Speaker 13: media or the economy.
Speaker 16: And these conspiracy theories are.
Speaker 13: Core to an authoritarian and nationalists worldview that mobilize, you know,
Speaker 13: millions really away from examining and confronting the root causes
Speaker 13: of oppression and convinces them to chase you kind of
Speaker 13: illusory shadows instead.
Speaker 6: Why do we have like a harder time kind of
Speaker 6: pinning down this term? You know, I think people have
Speaker 6: a general idea and a pretty easy way to like see, like,
Speaker 6: you know, what's like is homophobic?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: What's racist?
Speaker 6: There's a few points in your book that you talk about,
Speaker 6: you know, instances of people maybe unintentionally spreading anti Semitism
Speaker 6: that if they were instead talking about like Muslims, or
Speaker 6: like trans people, or or like black people, they would
Speaker 6: easily identify as like, oh, this is very clearly a
Speaker 6: form of like xenophobia, and this is very clearly like
Speaker 6: based on some kind of like conspiratorial discrimination.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I mean I think there's a few reasons for this,
Speaker 7: and we talk about this in the book. I mean
Speaker 7: one of them is that the way the anti Semitism
Speaker 7: has operated is generally a narrative about punching up against
Speaker 7: power versus a lot of narratives of oppression, which are
Speaker 7: basically about how various groups are subhuman or lesser than
Speaker 7: dominant population. That's slightly different with Jews, though that has
Speaker 7: been a component of some pieces of it historically is
Speaker 7: basically a narrative that people who feel disempowered then use
Speaker 7: to sort of like reclaim a sort of kind of
Speaker 7: populous energy. And a lot of ways it ends up
Speaker 7: being a place where folks are directed by people in
Speaker 7: power to put their class anger away from the actual
Speaker 7: rule in class. So I think in a way, when
Speaker 7: people see anti semitism, they also recognize that there's legitimate
Speaker 7: class anger or legitimate like disenfranchisement, and I think that's
Speaker 7: actually troubling to sort of want to undermine that feeling
Speaker 7: always necessarily. I think there's also just the complexity of
Speaker 7: Jewish identity that's shifted over time, different populations, different communities,
Speaker 7: different politics, sometimes religious, sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic.
Speaker 7: That can make it confusing. So it's hard to use
Speaker 7: one model for understanding impression than projected onto this And
Speaker 7: so in a lot of ways, you kind of have
Speaker 7: to come at this question distinctly from kind of other
Speaker 7: forms of oppression. That's actually true of most forms of oppression.
Speaker 7: They have a lot of distinctiveness. But I think like
Speaker 7: you have to kind of learn about those contours. And again,
Speaker 7: I think part of it is also that this hasn't
Speaker 7: been a big part of the left conversation in the
Speaker 7: last twenty or thirty years. It is to be more
Speaker 7: frequent that this would be like you know, maybe trainings
Speaker 7: and left spaces where people would talk about that. It
Speaker 7: just simply hasn't been the case that much recently, and
Speaker 7: so I think there's actually a big lack of just
Speaker 7: understanding of how to notice those things and to talk
Speaker 7: about them. And then I think weaponization has become such
Speaker 7: it's not just such an overwhelming part of it. It's
Speaker 7: actually the dominating converse station on antisemitism, particularly in the US.
Speaker 7: So when you hear about anti semitism, it's overwhelmingly going
Speaker 7: to be directed by the center or the right, or
Speaker 7: for institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. And again, people
Speaker 7: get heartened skin to that because they don't want to
Speaker 7: like give an inch on those sorts of things, and
Speaker 7: I totally understand why, and so I think that also
Speaker 7: has created that boundary of where examination would normally take place.
Speaker 6: It is interesting looking at like how much the right
Speaker 6: wing has been able to weaponize claims of anti semitism
Speaker 6: against the left. I think the term that you use
Speaker 6: in the book is selective outrage on anti semitism, because
Speaker 6: I mean, I was just at the RNC and you're
Speaker 6: hearing Marjorie Taylor Green talk about how there's like antisemitic
Speaker 6: protests happening around the country, and you're like, wait a minute,
Speaker 6: you're the Jewish space laser person, what are you talking about?
Speaker 6: And I think it was DeSantis who just called all
Speaker 6: university protesters hamas, right, not saying that they're like Amas,
Speaker 6: but just literally saying that these people are like are Hamas,
Speaker 6: Like Hamas took over university tests. And meanwhile, you would
Speaker 6: be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about,
Speaker 6: you know, this strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong
Speaker 6: degree of anti Semitic people either involved in their own
Speaker 6: campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a
Speaker 6: year ago where DeSantis's campaign staff released a video of
Speaker 6: him with the sonnet rat It's like com on, buddy.
Speaker 6: So it is interesting how how they've been able to
Speaker 6: try to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring like the
Speaker 6: structural anti semitism like baked into this new wave of
Speaker 6: nationalist politics that we're seeing in the United States.
Speaker 13: Yeah, no, it's totally the example of marginit Tayla Green
Speaker 13: is so striking. I mean, she, I believe, in the
Speaker 13: same day once she called the protesters on college campuses
Speaker 13: of anti Semitic and then she said that they were
Speaker 13: funded by George Soros, right, so yeah, yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 13: she's using them both for the same purpose. And it's
Speaker 13: not only DeSantis, and they're right, I mean in Jonathan
Speaker 13: Green Black ahead of thedl I remember, like a few
Speaker 13: months ago, said that students of college campuses were Iranian proxies.
Speaker 13: And when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military
Speaker 13: counterinsurgency against protesters. It's just it really puts Jews in danger,
Speaker 13: you know, not to mention Palestinians and the Muslims, you know,
Speaker 13: basically all groups, right, because sure there's occasionally a stray
Speaker 13: anti Semitic comment that shows up at protests, because anti
Speaker 13: Semitism is part of our world. There's anti blackness, injustice movements,
Speaker 13: antiology gutsppistry, and anti Semitism, I'm sure, but that's no
Speaker 13: comparison to when you have like Elon Musk, the richest
Speaker 13: person in the world, one of the most powerful people
Speaker 13: in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in patriot
Speaker 13: against whites. Right, there's no comparisons in terms of power
Speaker 13: and threat level, So it's really making Jews less.
Speaker 7: Say yeah, And we also talk about the fact that
Speaker 7: because anti Semitic conspiracy theories are such a foundational part
Speaker 7: of the rights form of populism, it's sort of how
Speaker 7: they explains anger and energy from the base that there's
Speaker 7: really no way to detach it, and so it ends
Speaker 7: up being this foundational piece that even when they talk
Speaker 7: about Israel consistently, the way that they've built a connection
Speaker 7: with their base is by trumping up towards Soros or
Speaker 7: Rothschild's conspiracy theories or basically presenting kind of us in
Speaker 7: them populous narrative around theories about globalists and things like that.
Speaker 7: So there's really no comparison that we're talking about anti
Speaker 7: simpatism when it shows up on the left versus the
Speaker 7: really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right.
Speaker 7: And like Ben was saying, right now, we have a
Speaker 7: situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of
Speaker 7: Israel and using that as their evidence of support for Jews,
Speaker 7: and then pushing great replacement theory claims which are inherently
Speaker 7: anti Semitic on the one hand, or really kind of
Speaker 7: mobilizing Jews in their rhetoric for their own kind of
Speaker 7: geopolitical aims, which again is not based out of like
Speaker 7: a deeply held love for Jews. It's either built on
Speaker 7: sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just simply an
Speaker 7: opportunistic use of this might already grew up to sort
Speaker 7: of push their other political values, which itself is kind
Speaker 7: of a deeply held anti Semitic way of treating the
Speaker 7: Jewish community. And so when we're looking at this, we
Speaker 7: can't let the rhetoric that's become the dominate actually stand
Speaker 7: for how we understand anti Semitism because it's been so
Speaker 7: politically motivated.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, as a researcher has it has been
Speaker 6: quite frustrating because I've used to, you know, and a
Speaker 6: lot of people used to be able to rely on
Speaker 6: some degree on like data aggorates like the ADL and
Speaker 6: putting together like lists of incidents, like maps. And as
Speaker 6: I was putting together my piece looking at this uptic
Speaker 6: and anti Semitism a few months ago, I was, you know,
Speaker 6: looking through this ADL map and the amount of like
Speaker 6: equivocation between just a standard pro Palestine protest protest that
Speaker 6: I was present at, and I was like, this was
Speaker 6: a Jewish led protest, and having that be equivocated with
Speaker 6: acts of like actual like neo Nazi terrorism as well
Speaker 6: as acts of like genuine anti semitism from people on
Speaker 6: the left. Basically it's resulting in like data poisoning, which
Speaker 6: makes it really hard to actually unpack some of these
Speaker 6: like larger issues that are that are facing both like
Speaker 6: Jewish people, people who are very concerned about Palestine and
Speaker 6: people who take like the threat of like you know,
Speaker 6: you know, far right nationalism quite seriously.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I went through all of the ADLs twenty twenty
Speaker 7: three anti semitism data with like in this project with
Speaker 7: Jewish currents, and the reality is is that the standard
Speaker 7: they use on sort of like left oriented Palestine protests
Speaker 7: is to have almost any measure of support for Palestinians
Speaker 7: or any kind of global call for justice in Palestine
Speaker 7: that is de facto anti semitism, And like you said,
Speaker 7: it then overwhelms the data of sort of shuts out
Speaker 7: other things. And the way that they even set up
Speaker 7: the reporting system just privileges those kind of protests, so
Speaker 7: people it teaches, for example, they'll partner with the organizations
Speaker 7: and show people how to report, and so they'll end
Speaker 7: up mass reporting these protest events and then underreporting white
Speaker 7: nationalist incidents or like violent incidents. So what you end
Speaker 7: up seeing in their data is that they've actually undercoded
Speaker 7: white nationalist events because of the way that they kind
Speaker 7: of set up the data, and they don't really track
Speaker 7: things like housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, and extews. Those kind
Speaker 7: of things really don't fit into their model. So what
Speaker 7: you end up with is this kind of map that
Speaker 7: just privileges people saying from the River to the Sea
Speaker 7: is like this inherently anti Semitic meme, and then undercounts
Speaker 7: like what often Jews will report as what makes them
Speaker 7: feeling unsafe, comments of work, or actual pressures when buying homes,
Speaker 7: things like that, like that doesn't really show up. You've
Speaker 7: experiences of Jews in prison, those don't show up. So
Speaker 7: you end up with this really skewed image on what
Speaker 7: it is, where you assume that the left is overwhelming
Speaker 7: the responsible party, and then it actually in visualizes a
Speaker 7: pretty growing force on the right, and even institutionally just
Speaker 7: like in structures of kind of like American culture. So
Speaker 7: it's really hard then to say, like, well, how do
Speaker 7: I know what's actually happening here? The adail's the largest organization.
Speaker 7: Every organization then uses their data where am I going?
Speaker 7: It leads you in a really big kind of a
Speaker 7: gap in how to understand what's happening. So we can
Speaker 7: look at pretty clear evidence that there's a rise in
Speaker 7: anti Semitism by looking at things like street attacks or
Speaker 7: by looking at the rhetoric on the right, but it's
Speaker 7: hard to get like a clear picture of it because
Speaker 7: every organization is that's oriented looking at the left.
Speaker 13: Like I was just going to say, like this goes
Speaker 13: way back to the ADL. Like you know, in our book,
Speaker 13: we talk about how even in the nineteen seventies and
Speaker 13: the eighties, the eight I was like spying on left
Speaker 13: wing activists as part of their pivot towards seeing the
Speaker 13: most important side of anti Semitism on what they call
Speaker 13: the radical left right. In the nineteen seventies, as global
Speaker 13: criticism of Israel's occupation mounted after the nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 13: you know, six Day War Group sixty, ADL look really
Speaker 13: pivoted further from whatever original mission they may have had
Speaker 13: about like genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming like Israel
Speaker 13: defense organizations, and so in the seventies and eighties, like
Speaker 13: you saw them spuying on anti apart side activists, You
Speaker 13: saw them attacking Arab American you know, professors at universities.
Speaker 13: You saw them spying on acta even left than Jewish
Speaker 13: groups like New Jewish Agenda, you know. And so it's
Speaker 13: not only Jonathan Greenblatt, It's not only since October seventh.
Speaker 13: The d L has been playing this role for a
Speaker 13: long time, along with a whole lot of Christian Zionists
Speaker 13: and both sides of the US political establishment and the
Speaker 13: other career is setting like the stakes are extremely high.
Speaker 13: The right and the center are trying to legislate their
Speaker 13: definition of anti Semitism, to destroy free speech and to
Speaker 13: protect his real's genocide.
Speaker 16: So the stakes are very high about this right now.
Speaker 6: I think one of the most troubling notions about how
Speaker 6: those groups like the ADL and others that are kind
Speaker 6: of like like you said, like logging for legislation and
Speaker 6: trying to encourage like extreme crews on human rights protests
Speaker 6: and antigeness hide protests, is that this is also like
Speaker 6: materially harms a whole bunch of Jewish people who are
Speaker 6: involved in these protests and in organizing. You're trying to
Speaker 6: get the FBI to investigate Jewish people who are protesting
Speaker 6: against the genocide. And we saw this with the with
Speaker 6: the campus university protests. You saw this, you know, especially
Speaker 6: at Columbia of like a lot of a lot of
Speaker 6: these kids are Jewish people who are heavily involved in
Speaker 6: these protests and in calls to do a very extreme
Speaker 6: crackdown and investigations, It's hard to see how that's not
Speaker 6: just like calling for for our government to like further
Speaker 6: oppressed these Jewish people who don't like agree with one
Speaker 6: side's opinion on something.
Speaker 16: Yeah, yeah, you see it. You know, in the most
Speaker 16: kind of ironic twist of history.
Speaker 13: In Germany, where you know, the state was once a
Speaker 13: Nazi state, is enforcing some of the most brutal crackdowns
Speaker 13: on the poust on solidarity a speech, and Jews are
Speaker 13: disproportionately represented among the crackdown there. And so you have
Speaker 13: you know, German police pulling people with pipos and arresting them,
Speaker 13: you know, shutting down events with Jewish speakers. Right, So
Speaker 13: it's it's really like literally policing Jewish thought, right Like,
Speaker 13: we know, there's over a century of Jewish opposition to
Speaker 13: Zionism and Jewish solidarity with Palestinians, and from the very
Speaker 13: beginnings of the Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian
Speaker 13: movement in Christian Europe by the way, you know, and
Speaker 13: we've always had long traditions of Jews who have resisted it.
Speaker 13: And so when the state is legislating saying only like
Speaker 13: a certain expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also
Speaker 13: anti Semitism, right like.
Speaker 16: And we see it, you know, not only from Trump, right.
Speaker 13: You know, Trump will always say, oh, Jews who are democrats,
Speaker 13: Jews who are quote unquote disloyal to Israel are problematic.
Speaker 13: You also see it from Biden who says, you know,
Speaker 13: without Israel, there's not a Jew in the world who's safe.
Speaker 16: Right.
Speaker 13: So I think, you know, Jews who descend on Israel
Speaker 13: are rapidly becoming enemies in a way of the right,
Speaker 13: you know, and of forces align with it, right, And
Speaker 13: I think that's an aspect of of anti Semitism that's
Speaker 13: not talked about enough today.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and there's a lot of examples of this too.
Speaker 7: During the Labor Party controversy around Corbin and anti Semitism,
Speaker 7: it was Jewish members who were overwhelmingly expelled from the party.
Speaker 7: I think it's almost like a dozen times more likely
Speaker 7: to face kind of consequences there, right, So like those
Speaker 7: ended up being the centerpiece of it. But I think
Speaker 7: even when you when you broaden out, this ends up
Speaker 7: being the case. And we kind of talked about this
Speaker 7: as like a good Jew bad Jew distinction, where like
Speaker 7: anti Semitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of
Speaker 7: the culture decides as a bad Jew or whatever the
Speaker 7: organization's decides, it's the bad version of a Jew, the
Speaker 7: kind of Jew that they don't want to actually deal with.
Speaker 7: And this happens in this pro Israel consensus whereby the
Speaker 7: khu Nyahu, basically the far By coalition running Israel right now,
Speaker 7: builds alliances that they need around the world with far
Speaker 7: Bright parties and Hungary in South Asia, Indian with the
Speaker 7: Hindian Nationalism, with other places, and then those movements are
Speaker 7: pretty explicitly anti Semitic, therefore making Jews in various countries
Speaker 7: around the diaspora less and less safe, right, and so
Speaker 7: this sort of model of making Israel the bottom line
Speaker 7: on defending against anti Semitism is one that strengthened the right,
Speaker 7: helped to build up Christian nationalism domestically, and then that
Speaker 7: creates this kind of general culture of unsafety for Jews
Speaker 7: where the only Jewish voices that are then held up
Speaker 7: are the ones that justify Christian nationalism on the one hand,
Speaker 7: like you'll see at the National Conservatism Conference, or ones
Speaker 7: who are so aggressively pro Israel that they're totally willing
Speaker 7: to partner with Christian science groups or the far right
Speaker 7: wing of the Republican Party or national conservative parties in Europe.
Speaker 7: And so this ends up as a situation where like
Speaker 7: a increasing number of Jews, particularly in the US, or
Speaker 7: Jews around the left, which again is still disproportionately Jewish,
Speaker 7: feel increasingly targeted by the political consensus, and at the
Speaker 7: same time, this pro Israel rhetoric ends up being with
Speaker 7: the fact of sure by which anyone's kind of set to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.
Speaker 6: Like there was this part in the book where you
Speaker 6: were talking about the good Jew bad Jew binary, specifically
Speaker 6: on the left, where there's like a minority of Jews
Speaker 6: who identify as anti or non Zionist who are very
Speaker 6: like celebrated, sometimes maybe even in like a tokenizing kind
Speaker 6: of way, while the rest of Jewish people who do
Speaker 6: not identify as such are belittled as unworthy or like untrustworthy,
Speaker 6: where their opinions are dismissed or seen as morally compromised
Speaker 6: on like an inherent level. And this can also be
Speaker 6: coupled with this assumption that like every Jew is a
Speaker 6: secret Zionist until proven otherwise, and you have to like
Speaker 6: get every new Jewish person you meet to like prove
Speaker 6: to you that they're not secretly as Zionist, which is,
Speaker 6: you know, very antisemitic.
Speaker 3: And we also do have this good.
Speaker 6: Jew bad Jew binary mirrored in like an inverted form
Speaker 6: on the right, with Zionist Jews, you know, being seen
Speaker 6: as the good ones, and anti Zionist Jews have their
Speaker 6: like jewishness questioned or are seen as like untrustworthy or
Speaker 6: inherently evil. And I do believe it is worth discussing
Speaker 6: kind of the flip side of this, and I think
Speaker 6: avoiding talking about actual antisemitism on the left I think
Speaker 6: only serves to harm all of us, and because it
Speaker 6: is something that I think is happening, and I think
Speaker 6: should be talked about even if it makes people like uncomfortable.
Speaker 6: And I think it's a it is a mistake to
Speaker 6: assume that just because you're on the left, that you're
Speaker 6: like somehow immune to antisemitic thinking, whether purposeful or not.
Speaker 6: Like like both of you mentioned, like we live in
Speaker 6: a society that has a great degree of structural anti Semitism,
Speaker 6: and a lot of these people, I think, who might
Speaker 6: be attending some of these protests or might just be
Speaker 6: posting online who knows, might not even be intentionally spreading
Speaker 6: anti Semitism, right, but in action, that's kind of what
Speaker 6: they're invoking through like ideas of like you know, the
Speaker 6: Zionist cabal that secretly controls all of the media, all
Speaker 6: all of all of the government. You know, those types
Speaker 6: of things. We're starting to like invoke these like larger
Speaker 6: secretive organizations that are that are pre planning this whole thing.
Speaker 6: And like just to some degree from a lot of
Speaker 6: the discourse that you see, I feel like some people
Speaker 6: think they can just like control f Jews to Zionists,
Speaker 6: and like if you're able to control f Jews to
Speaker 6: Zionists and the sentence still works, that means that you're
Speaker 6: doing it wrong. That means that you're probably approaching this
Speaker 6: from a problematic standpoint. And there's a whole bunch of
Speaker 6: aspects about this sort of thing that you do talk
Speaker 6: about in the book, like, you know, including identifying Judaism
Speaker 6: with Zionism and how that also only hurts all of us,
Speaker 6: including this like weird uptick in like Jewish race science
Speaker 6: that you're starting to see more and more of claiming
Speaker 6: that like all modern Jewish people only come from Europe.
Speaker 6: And it's like there's just a whole bunch of this
Speaker 6: kind of stuff that we're all kind of pushing to
Speaker 6: the side. But I do believe it is like worth
Speaker 6: talking about in some degree because this is going to
Speaker 6: not only harm people who are calling for an end
Speaker 6: to the genocide in Gaza. I think it does like
Speaker 6: strengthen this notion that a lot of this and this
Speaker 6: project is built on, which is saying that we need
Speaker 6: Israel as a way to secure safety for Jewish people
Speaker 6: around the world.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think we talk about this, you know, we
Speaker 7: have a couple of chapters that talk kind of explicitly
Speaker 7: about this at different points in the history. But I
Speaker 7: think there's a tendency, and I kind of get where
Speaker 7: this comes from. To basically see any ally or any
Speaker 7: kind of voice in support of a movement as like
Speaker 7: a partner, particularly when you're trying to build like mass
Speaker 7: support against something that basically has kind of mass opposition
Speaker 7: on the other side, like liberating Palestine. But what you
Speaker 7: see oftentimes when you see a mooment grow really dramatically,
Speaker 7: really quickly, is that there's just not a kind of
Speaker 7: like common baseline understanding always of that, and conspiracy theories
Speaker 7: are a great way to fill the gap on them. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and that's true of really any movement. It's just that,
Speaker 7: in particular, in this case, we have this long history
Speaker 7: of anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power in particular,
Speaker 7: and then we're talking about sort of like powerful political
Speaker 7: actors on the other and so making clear distinctions is
Speaker 7: just not there necessarily. So, you know, we talked with
Speaker 7: lots of folks that have been sort of litmus tested
Speaker 7: when entering kind of less spaces about Zientism. I talk
Speaker 7: to folks where other organizers ask to see their passport
Speaker 7: before they're allowed to come to media's crazy. It's it's wild,
Speaker 7: and you think in most of the cases people we
Speaker 7: kind of identify that as being kind of wild. We
Speaker 7: make a lot of distinctions. We talk about, like the
Speaker 7: sort of difference between talking about a Israel lobby organization
Speaker 7: like APAC and its power or kind of a vague
Speaker 7: diffuse Israel lobby that you know, control controls Western politics,
Speaker 7: that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Like a like a this is predeces Israel lobby.
Speaker 7: Exactly exactly, and instead talking about like why would we
Speaker 7: understand Israel is part of kind of a Western imperial
Speaker 7: project rather than the flip side, this kind of small
Speaker 7: country controlling Western foreign policy, that kind of thing, and
Speaker 7: make a lot of those clear distinctions. And again, I
Speaker 7: think it's been sort of suggested like these ideas eanthismenic
Speaker 7: ideas are a part of the culture. And you know,
Speaker 7: I've been around the left long enough to see like
Speaker 7: virulent transphobic ideas show up, to see like queer phobic
Speaker 7: is in general be very very present. There's no reason
Speaker 7: to believe that anti Semitism wouldn't show up here either.
Speaker 7: Where folks are sort of like consumed by anger, what
Speaker 7: people are looking for clear answers, what people are trying
Speaker 7: to identify that And I think the easy answer is
Speaker 7: often to paper over it. And I think what we
Speaker 7: talk about here is that that exactly is what sort
Speaker 7: of pro Israel voices want in this case, is to
Speaker 7: know that the Left isn't good to deal with it,
Speaker 7: and so the alternative to that is to both like
Speaker 7: create like a sense of like how would we confront
Speaker 7: antisemitic institutions and where structural anti semitism comes from? And
Speaker 7: then also how do we deal with that internally? And
Speaker 7: we talk with a bunch of social movements that have
Speaker 7: done that. Right, anti fascists are actually pretty used to
Speaker 7: talking about anti semitism when it shows up on the left.
Speaker 7: That's pretty common. Jewish left has talked about this historically.
Speaker 7: There's other voices, So bringing that back and sort of
Speaker 7: making that a safe place to confront and then then
Speaker 7: figure out then where is it like you know, just
Speaker 7: a bad idea that you deal with and you talk
Speaker 7: about you have like education, and where do you draw
Speaker 7: lines where like you know, this is now not a
Speaker 7: person that's not allowed in or these are voices we
Speaker 7: can't partner with that kind of thing. I think that's
Speaker 7: something people work out on the ground.
Speaker 6: No, and you make a really good comparison in the
Speaker 6: book about how like anti Smdic conspiracy theories inhibit a
Speaker 6: actual understanding of like the mechanisms of capital right, like
Speaker 6: it makes you unable to actually like analyze how capitalism operates.
Speaker 6: And similarly, having like an anti Semitic conspiratorial view of
Speaker 6: like anti Zionism, that also will mask the root cause
Speaker 6: of Palestinian impression by distracting from like the like the
Speaker 6: very like real like geopolitical mechanisms that have caused this
Speaker 6: situation to take place, and distracting from that with like
Speaker 6: these tales of like you describe it as like innate
Speaker 6: Jewish wickedness or a global Zionist power. And I think
Speaker 6: that's a really good understanding because people often, like I think,
Speaker 6: have a general idea that like, yeah, anti Semitism is
Speaker 6: like in a lot of ways used as a way
Speaker 6: to not fully confront like the mechanisms of capitalism, and
Speaker 6: realizing how you know, it's kind of a kind of
Speaker 6: like a similar situation with Palestine is a way for
Speaker 6: people to understand that a little bit easier and to
Speaker 6: like reiterate the point about how you know you're not
Speaker 6: immune to anti semitism just because you're on the left right.
Speaker 6: Something else you also bring up in the book is
Speaker 6: like Marxist Leninism has a very mixed history with their
Speaker 6: relationship to anti Semitism, and I think you do see
Speaker 6: this with with with the degree of the discourse on
Speaker 6: this issue. You know, if you compare you know, anarchist
Speaker 6: viewpoints on like statism and anti Zionism to a whole
Speaker 6: bunch of Marxist Leninists talking about this issue, I do
Speaker 6: believe there is you know, generally maybe more anti Semitic
Speaker 6: undertones among some of the more like statist communists. And
Speaker 6: I think you talk about like the Soviet Union's own
Speaker 6: oppression of Jewish people and kind of the continued programs
Speaker 6: that happened even after the end of World War Two.
Speaker 16: Yeah, I'd say, like a history of the nineteenth and
Speaker 16: the twentieth century left, I think the record of both
Speaker 16: camps has been fairly mixed. I think it was anarchist
Speaker 16: like you know, Bakunen who maybe like the ins yeah, totally.
Speaker 13: And you know, like I guess I have to also
Speaker 13: have to say, you know, the the was the nineteen
Speaker 13: seventeen October Revolution, and that was like probably one of
Speaker 13: the first times that are left led society did pass
Speaker 13: you know, laws out long antisemitism and then like they did,
Speaker 13: you know, defeat the Nazis.
Speaker 16: So there I have to give them some credit where
Speaker 16: it's due. But yes, there's also like a very mixed,
Speaker 16: you know.
Speaker 13: Record, especially in the thirties and in the forties and beyond,
Speaker 13: and certainly yeah, today, I would completely agree with you
Speaker 13: that like the more statist camps on the left are
Speaker 13: the most kind of aligned with conspiratorial thinking with campus
Speaker 13: and yeah, I really like the way that you broke
Speaker 13: down just how these conspiracy theory can distract us from
Speaker 13: the root causes of power. And that's really I think
Speaker 13: where if you want to develop like a structural understanding
Speaker 13: of anti Semitism and how it connects to capitalism and
Speaker 13: all the other systems of oppression, that's where you got
Speaker 13: to go, right Seeing how, especially in times of crisis
Speaker 13: and massive discontent like today, with the rise of nationalism,
Speaker 13: with you know, widespread alienation, that's when anti Semitism really
Speaker 13: rises and is mobilized by authoritarian and nationalists, you know leaders,
Speaker 13: when there's millions of people who are are fed up
Speaker 13: that they don't have a job, they don't have any savings.
Speaker 13: They know the media is lying to them, they know
Speaker 13: that politicians don't represent them. That's when these conspiracy theories,
Speaker 13: you know, really take root on the right and on
Speaker 13: the left. And that's why you have you know, Trump
Speaker 13: and Steve Bannon and the rest of them, you know, saying, oh,
Speaker 13: go look at the globalists, Go look at George Soros,
Speaker 13: you go look at cultural Marxists.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 16: And I think the more that you know, the left
Speaker 16: can advance our own understanding of why the world is
Speaker 16: so fucked up in how to make it better, then
Speaker 16: we can really undercut the root causes of anti Semitism
Speaker 16: and move more people into our coalitions. So yeah, that's
Speaker 16: really key.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 6: I have two examples I like to kind of bring
Speaker 6: up as ways to like springboard discussions and like how
Speaker 6: we can actually like handle this going forward, whether that
Speaker 6: be you know, if you hear someone say something at
Speaker 6: a protest that makes you think that's a little questionable,
Speaker 6: or as ways to like actually just like continue like
Speaker 6: your own like active participation in calls for ceasefire and
Speaker 6: ending the genocide in Palestine and whatever justice in Palestine
Speaker 6: might look like. So a few months ago, I was
Speaker 6: at the Emory University campus occupation and maybe like a
Speaker 6: week in or so, Enemy of the Pod Jackson Hinkle
Speaker 6: showed up in person along with Hawes and a few
Speaker 6: of those kind of like cronies. Right, These are people
Speaker 6: who are like conservative communists, mega communists. They're basically like
Speaker 6: Douganists or like third persists, and they basically become influencers
Speaker 6: that monetize the genocide and gaza for their own like
Speaker 6: personal political profile. So this guy showed up one night
Speaker 6: and no one really knew what exactly to do, Like
Speaker 6: people knew who he was. There was people talking with organizers,
Speaker 6: and like organizers tried to talk with him and be like, hey,
Speaker 6: can you like not be here and he's like, well, no,
Speaker 6: I want to be here because blah blah blah blah
Speaker 6: blah blah blah. And you know, certain people would try
Speaker 6: to get into like political arguments with him, which is
Speaker 6: I think is completely useless. And it was. It was
Speaker 6: kind of a weird situation. And then we learned that
Speaker 6: he was slated to speak at an event the next day.
Speaker 6: Now it's unclear if he was kind of hijacking this
Speaker 6: event or if he was actually invited to speak, but regardless,
Speaker 6: he was going to show up and make some kind
Speaker 6: of speech at an event later that next day. So
Speaker 6: some people put together this flyer kind of going through
Speaker 6: Hinkle's politics, his history of anti semitism, rabid queer phobia, racism,
Speaker 6: all these things that explain kind of who he actually
Speaker 6: is as a person. And these flyers were distributed that morning,
Speaker 6: like before before he was slated to speak around the venue.
Speaker 6: As he went up on stage, a decent number of
Speaker 6: people in the audience who had these flyers protested to
Speaker 6: be like no, like you can't be here. He was
Speaker 6: escorted out of the building, and then he was escorted
Speaker 6: off of campus. I think this was a very effective
Speaker 6: way of handling a situation like this. It didn't give
Speaker 6: him like an opportunity for like extra clicks.
Speaker 11: You know.
Speaker 6: It wasn't a super volatile way to handle this. It
Speaker 6: was it was very simple. It was it was kind
Speaker 6: of elegant. There was just no way for him to
Speaker 6: really like weaponize this effectively. So we have something like
Speaker 6: that as a way to like, you know, clamp down
Speaker 6: on people who are either disingenuous or just actually antisemitic.
Speaker 6: We're trying to like infiltrate or take over in some degree,
Speaker 6: this kind of general call to stop the genocide in Gaza. Meanwhile,
Speaker 6: a few weeks ago, there were protests in DC as
Speaker 6: net Nyahu was speaking to Congress, and there's this video
Speaker 6: going around of people like graffitiing the fake liberty bell
Speaker 6: with like just pro Palestine slogans and stuff, and like,
Speaker 6: everyone's freaking out about this. Not everybody, you know, a
Speaker 6: certain section of political people, we're freaking outbout this. A
Speaker 6: whole bunch of other people were like, Okay, well it's
Speaker 6: graffiti on a fake bell.
Speaker 3: Who cares?
Speaker 6: But I actually watched that whole video, and after they
Speaker 6: look at the Liberty bell, it pans over to this
Speaker 6: other monument nearby where in big red lettering is written
Speaker 6: Hamas is coming. And I see this as a pretty
Speaker 6: bad way to handle a situation like this, because from
Speaker 6: what I can tell here, all that matters is just
Speaker 6: being like edgy and freaking out libs, and it kind
Speaker 6: of destroys any ability to cultivate forward momentum. It's like
Speaker 6: they're doing it just so that Democrats will be pressured
Speaker 6: into condemning it to reinforce like their own hopelessness, performative
Speaker 6: spiral of doing nothing but edgie graffiti as political praxis,
Speaker 6: And I see this as kind of a general pattern
Speaker 6: of people trying to establish themselves as like the most
Speaker 6: radical and using that as a weapon against anyone else.
Speaker 6: And it's just like a form of political posturing. It's
Speaker 6: it's hardly any different from posting a black square on Instagram.
Speaker 6: They don't want any actual movement or any actual change.
Speaker 6: They want to be the coolest, most correct people as
Speaker 6: the world ends. It's kind of like a cowardly way
Speaker 6: out because, as you point out in the book, it's
Speaker 6: kind of hell to actually have to deal with and
Speaker 6: work with people who have some degree of like morally
Speaker 6: compromised politics, and that actually requires like caring about the ends,
Speaker 6: but it's the means that make you look cool. Things
Speaker 6: like this are kind of bound to happen. At any
Speaker 6: kind of protest that has more than, like, you know,
Speaker 6: fifty people, right, there's going to be someone who does
Speaker 6: something that the main protest is not aligned with. And
Speaker 6: on that note, like what advice would you have to
Speaker 6: people who are attending these protests and you see someone
Speaker 6: who maybe does something that's a little bit questionable whether
Speaker 6: that be you know, like harassing just a random like
Speaker 6: visibly Jewish person, or you know, writing graffiti on a synagogue. Right,
Speaker 6: these things that are like really not helpful and actually
Speaker 6: kind of do display a degree of maybe like like
Speaker 6: like coded anti Semitic motivation.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I think that's prepaiding of habas on the statue.
Speaker 7: I think it's an interesting example because that was just
Speaker 7: brandished all over right wing media. You know, Tablet magazine
Speaker 7: did an article about how these folks should be deported
Speaker 7: with all their Instagram It was like a trending thing
Speaker 7: on Instagram, and it did very little like protests wise, right,
Speaker 7: And actually at that same demonstration, there's a number of rabbis,
Speaker 7: particularly kind of like movement elder rabbis Lindholtzeman, other folks
Speaker 7: that were arrested by cops, yeah, pretty brutally and then detained. Right,
Speaker 7: So there actually was these attacking like a Jewish contingent
Speaker 7: of like religious figures totally. I think also there's been
Speaker 7: a number of examples, I think where folks really just
Speaker 7: aren't prepared for something. And I think this is actually
Speaker 7: sort of a long conversation people should have on the left.
Speaker 7: I remember years ago, I was with a group that
Speaker 7: created sort of like an accountability document. The idea was
Speaker 7: is that if something happens in an organization, it often
Speaker 7: just organization. If there's interpersonal issues, if there's like interpersonal
Speaker 7: trauma or assault, things like that, and so getting out
Speaker 7: in front of it and just like having a sense
Speaker 7: of like how you want to deal with things, and
Speaker 7: like having had consensus amongst folks with like this is
Speaker 7: like appropriate behavior, this is how we want to handle stuff.
Speaker 7: That's always a strong thing to do. But at did
Speaker 7: George I think it was at George Washington University campus
Speaker 7: at the end of April. Patrick Casey, who's formerly of
Speaker 7: Identity Europa and the American Identity Movement, showed up at
Speaker 7: the encampment and wanted to talk to people, want to
Speaker 7: ask them questions and that kind of thing. And people
Speaker 7: were totally obliged him. They were in photos with them,
Speaker 7: let him take video. It's because they didn't know who
Speaker 7: he was. Yeah, right, in reality, he didn't actually find
Speaker 7: anyone that was going to basically support his vision. He
Speaker 7: stopped people asked, you know, will you allow right wing
Speaker 7: anti zionists here? They basically said no. He did find
Speaker 7: one person with a hat that said Israel did nine
Speaker 7: to eleven, who then told him that the Jews projected Christ.
Speaker 7: But he was also kind of on the edges of
Speaker 7: the encampment. Sure, the reality is what happened was a
Speaker 7: white nationalist came into an encampment and took photos of
Speaker 7: use and posted them on a white nationalist website. That's
Speaker 7: what happened, you know. So there actually was anti semitism.
Speaker 7: It affected the Jews of the encampment, but no one
Speaker 7: know who it was. And I think the flip side
Speaker 7: of that is having partners with groups that actually do
Speaker 7: know who Patrick Casey is and be able to say, oh,
Speaker 7: that guy is not here, it's not legitimate. I think
Speaker 7: with someone like hinkele Maga communists, that's really confusing to
Speaker 7: people group. I mean, that's why he does it, Like
Speaker 7: it's a duginous and kind of grave zone types and
Speaker 7: this kind of version of authoritarian kind of like right
Speaker 7: leading right coded so called communists. It's there literally to
Speaker 7: confuse people and to bridge the gaps between the right
Speaker 7: and the left, and so again pilding that base of
Speaker 7: people talking to them, having like internal trainings about how
Speaker 7: this stuff works, and like, what these groups are? I
Speaker 7: think that's always going to be a good thing. We
Speaker 7: talked with one organizer who had an organization that had
Speaker 7: put together a training for other groups on anti semitism
Speaker 7: and invited all these groups to come, and you know,
Speaker 7: wanted to get feedback on the training. So they did
Speaker 7: the training and everyone kind of like thanked them and
Speaker 7: then went on to ask them questions. And the questions
Speaker 7: were exceedingly anti Semitic. It was things like, well, how
Speaker 7: do you talk about the New York housing market when
Speaker 7: clearly Jews.
Speaker 3: Go oh no.
Speaker 7: And these were major, major organizations and so basically they
Speaker 7: had like a choice like are we going to deal
Speaker 7: with this here? Are we going to cut these relationships?
Speaker 7: And they basically were like, Okay, let's talk about this,
Speaker 7: let's deal with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and it moved.
Speaker 7: The organization is huge. Like they were like, we don't
Speaker 7: want to make these kind of decisions. We want to
Speaker 7: realize where we've made mistakes. That's not true if everyone
Speaker 7: do not be polyanna about it and assume it's always
Speaker 7: going to go overwell. But I think we have to
Speaker 7: actually attempt to make those changes. And the reason is
Speaker 7: is that the left and building kind of left social
Speaker 7: movements build on solidarity inequality. That's the only option we
Speaker 7: have to do something about anti Semitism. The right has
Speaker 7: never made Jews safer. We have right now a system
Speaker 7: where Israeli nationalism is supposed to be the primary vessel
Speaker 7: for Jewish safety. I don't know about you, but when
Speaker 7: I look at Israel, I don't think to myself, what
Speaker 7: a tremendously bumps of safe Jews? Like this, we have
Speaker 7: a situation that I don't think the political solutions actually
Speaker 7: offer Jewish safety and instead just create like more and
Speaker 7: more social division and more and more social hierarchy. So
Speaker 7: we have to kind of look at the left and
Speaker 7: how to build a left that can confront anti Semitism,
Speaker 7: and that is really the only option we're being given.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think like avoiding this whole issue out of
Speaker 6: fears that like it, like it, like somehow like takes
Speaker 6: away from other bad things that are happening in the world,
Speaker 6: like it, like somehow it takes away from the genocide
Speaker 6: in Gaza. I think is so misplaced thinking because I
Speaker 6: view this as all part of the same struggle and
Speaker 6: actual like active efforts to combat any any degree of
Speaker 6: anti Semitism that is witnessed, I think will serve to
Speaker 6: only like strengthen a general like overall united call to
Speaker 6: stop what's going on. And I think like people have
Speaker 6: this like inclination that maybe we shouldn't talk about it,
Speaker 6: maybe we should just like try to ignore it because
Speaker 6: it's uncomfortable or it might like hurt the cause. And
Speaker 6: I think that's just absolutely reversed. And I think, like
Speaker 6: you said, like making making inroads with like anti fascist
Speaker 6: researchers to help, like I to fy you know, when
Speaker 6: these things are happening, who bad actors might be, you know,
Speaker 6: people that might try to trojan horse certain issues to
Speaker 6: kind of alter a popular movement. Is all great ways
Speaker 6: to start, Ben, Did you have any other other kind
Speaker 6: of thoughts on how to handle this like unique political moment.
Speaker 13: Yeah, no, I mean I've been around Palestine solidarity movements
Speaker 13: for like, you know, over a decade. I remember, like
Speaker 13: a decade ago, I was in a rally and you know,
Speaker 13: most of the signage there was like really inspiring and awesome,
Speaker 13: but at one point I saw like a sign that
Speaker 13: showed like kind of like a hook nose Israeli soldier
Speaker 13: who was like feasting on children's blood. And it was like, Okay,
Speaker 13: this is definitely like there's an anti Semitism here. And
Speaker 13: I actually like went up and like talked to the
Speaker 13: person and they were like really nice, and you know,
Speaker 13: I explained to them, like, you know, there's a thing
Speaker 13: called the Bible which is an anti Semitic myth that's
Speaker 13: harm juice for centuries that is like feased on Christian
Speaker 13: children's blood, and that like it seems like that image
Speaker 13: of the Israeli soldier is like seems to like have
Speaker 13: a big nose and that's kind of like a hy
Speaker 13: stereotype from Europe. And they were like, oh, I didn't
Speaker 13: really know these things. They took the sign down and
Speaker 13: left feeling like it was a good conversation, and so
Speaker 13: like things like that, I think there's some understandable fear,
Speaker 13: like among Jewish people that you might see signs like
Speaker 13: this at rallies, and when you do, I think, just
Speaker 13: like trying to have conversations, it doesn't always go well,
Speaker 13: but often it does. And I just think, like you know,
Speaker 13: for any marginalized group or form of oppression, the more
Speaker 13: that people just deep in their understanding of like what
Speaker 13: anti Semitism is how it shows up what some of
Speaker 13: these these tropes are.
Speaker 16: Like. The more that it becomes normalized, the more that it.
Speaker 13: Will become second nature to people, and people won't be
Speaker 13: as afraid to talk about it. There won't be this
Speaker 13: kind of like weird silence around it, and there's some
Speaker 13: decemitism in that silence. To be clear, like for any
Speaker 13: kind of oppression. If you thought, oh, if people don't
Speaker 13: want to talk about like anti black racism in the movement,
Speaker 13: that's that itself is like is part of anti blackness, right,
Speaker 13: so we should be clear. And I also think, like
Speaker 13: you're saying, the fact that so often, like atmusations of
Speaker 13: anti semitism are weaponized against our movements makes people don't
Speaker 13: want to talk about it, makes people think, oh, this
Speaker 13: is just a right wing issue, or if we talk
Speaker 13: about it, or we're just lending treat ince to the right.
Speaker 16: But I think that's changing.
Speaker 13: Especially with the growth of the Jewish left and with
Speaker 13: an understanding that anti semitism is real and needs to
Speaker 13: be tackled. And so I think, yeah, the one of
Speaker 13: the things to keep changing, this conversation will be a
Speaker 13: lot easier.
Speaker 6: Yeah, is there any other thing that you would like
Speaker 6: to mention kind of near the end of this piece,
Speaker 6: you know, anything on like the Jewish left, any of
Speaker 6: the other kind of closing thoughts that didn't get brought up.
Speaker 7: Oh, the only thing was say, we spend a lot
Speaker 7: of time talking about the stake that non Jewish folks
Speaker 7: have in this, and I think there's there's a couple
Speaker 7: of things that are worth considering. Like we've sort of
Speaker 7: talked about anti semitism. One of the key features of
Speaker 7: anti semitism is that it's not true, Like it's a
Speaker 7: bad actual analysis about power, state, empires, and capitalism works.
Speaker 7: So if that is sort of steeping in, and this
Speaker 7: is true of conspiracy theories broadly, if that's cp into politics,
Speaker 7: that's just a failure right there. And so it's really
Speaker 7: incumbent on people to sort of try and move past
Speaker 7: that and confront those things, because that's the only way
Speaker 7: that like social movements can actually gain kind of efficacy.
Speaker 7: And the other thing is that they're directly tied to
Speaker 7: other forms of oppression. If you look at like the
Speaker 7: all out assault on trans healthcare and transtitutions right now,
Speaker 7: it's overwhelming using anti Semitic conspiracy theories as sort of
Speaker 7: the scaffolding to hold it together. Absolutely, And this has
Speaker 7: been historically true about anti blackness in the US and
Speaker 7: the other forms of oppression, and so these things are intertwined.
Speaker 7: So I think it's important just to acknowledge that like
Speaker 7: anti Semitism is not like just a Jewish problem or
Speaker 7: affect Jewish people. It's really baked into these kind of
Speaker 7: interlocking systems of oppression. So we should see it as
Speaker 7: a way of confronting other things as well. And to
Speaker 7: make that, can I give it value or can value
Speaker 7: to confront on its own terms?
Speaker 13: Yeah, And I think this book came out really at
Speaker 13: a moment when like these conversations are needed more than ever,
Speaker 13: and also at a moment when the Jewish left is
Speaker 13: just growing by leaps and bounds, and I think to
Speaker 13: end on a hopeful note, and that gives me a
Speaker 13: lot of hope. Along with the growth of the left,
Speaker 13: you know, more broadly right surging to the streets in
Speaker 13: support of Palestine, we're seeing like new generations and folks
Speaker 13: across all generations and Jewish communities who are building new
Speaker 13: ritual modalities, new modes of Jewish identity, new politics, who
Speaker 13: are really questioning old ways of doing things and really
Speaker 13: building a Jewish future beyond nationalism and militarism, and connecting
Speaker 13: our struggles with all other struggles as they've long been connected,
Speaker 13: you know, like Jewish left has been around for a
Speaker 13: long time. And so yeah, we're really living at a
Speaker 13: historic moment, both around this issue and around all of
Speaker 13: our movements in general. So that gives me a lot
Speaker 13: of hope.
Speaker 6: Thank you both so much for coming on to talk
Speaker 6: about these not very fun topics. I spent two hours
Speaker 6: this morning reading through the book.
Speaker 3: It was very good.
Speaker 6: I strongly recommend people read it, especially considering everything that's
Speaker 6: happened like these past eight months. I think there's a
Speaker 6: lot of very good insights in there. Where can people
Speaker 6: find a copy of Safety through Solidarity?
Speaker 7: I think I think you can pick it up anywhere.
Speaker 7: Appreciate the kind of words. I appreciate you having us
Speaker 7: on the talk about it. We've been directing folks to
Speaker 7: sort of like movement bookstores, and we've been partnering with
Speaker 7: a bunch of them, you know, so I think, like
Speaker 7: local read bookstores are always a great place. We have
Speaker 7: to like actively sustain those places and be a part
Speaker 7: of them. So I think that's a great place to
Speaker 7: do it, and also kind of requesting them at libraries,
Speaker 7: sort of like pointing folks to both of those things.
Speaker 7: So that's a great way to support the book.
Speaker 16: Great. I really appreciate you having us on Garrison. It's
Speaker 16: been a great conversation and we appreciate all the work
Speaker 16: you do so needed to be connective.
Speaker 3: All right, thanks much.
Speaker 17: Welcome to Nick Dafa here a podcast of once Again.
Speaker 17: I have forgotten to write an intro for I'm your
Speaker 17: host bi along with these chains.
Speaker 3: I'm here. It's great to be here. Intro on.
Speaker 17: Yeah, and this interless episode is I think the first
Speaker 17: episode that well, can I promise this is the first
Speaker 17: episode that was recorded after we learned that Tim Wallas
Speaker 17: was going to be the vice presidential nominee, defeating the
Speaker 17: sexual assault guy and then the other sexual assault guy
Speaker 17: who probably covered up on murder.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dan slack on it also coming up a murder
Speaker 3: an me.
Speaker 17: Yeah. That was a truly impressive, truly impressive sort of
Speaker 17: set of candidates that party elite were choosing from.
Speaker 3: It's still somewhat surprising that they didn't like Fumble. I
Speaker 3: mean to they will still fumble. We have months to go,
Speaker 3: But that's true.
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I think, oh god,
Speaker 17: we figured out this guy covered up a murder. That's
Speaker 17: probably the kind of thing that like even the Dems
Speaker 17: like dog shit opposition research people were like, hmm, okay,
Speaker 17: we shouldn't run that guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that tweeting about his murder cover up.
Speaker 3: Let's leave this one.
Speaker 17: Yeah, that's Shapiro out of Pennsylvania, who's one of the
Speaker 17: other candidates by the way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sucks shit.
Speaker 17: But you know, so the guy we ended up with
Speaker 17: a sort of folksy Midwestern actually I think it was
Speaker 17: just a defensive coordinator or whatever, the defensive coach for
Speaker 17: his football team. He's a very sort of folksy guy.
Speaker 17: We're going to get more into him next week. But
Speaker 17: the thing that I wanted to sort of start our
Speaker 17: discussion about the vice presidential candidates with is attempting to
Speaker 17: reconcile something that I've seen a lot of discussion about
Speaker 17: and sort of I don't know, kind of confusion to
Speaker 17: some extent about about how do you actually make sense
Speaker 17: of the sort of two halves of Tim Walls's record,
Speaker 17: right which, on the one hand, he's signing a bunch
Speaker 17: of extremely progressive, sort of welfared legislation while being the
Speaker 17: governor of Minnesota, including things like universal free school lunch.
Speaker 17: I said it was lunch of breakfast.
Speaker 3: I don't remember.
Speaker 17: It was both, it was both, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
Speaker 17: you know, the on the one hand, you have this
Speaker 17: sort of sparkling record, and then on the other hand,
Speaker 17: you have you know, him hauling in the National Guard
Speaker 17: and deploying it to suppress the uprising in twenty twenty, which,
Speaker 17: lest we forget started in Minnesota. Yeah, that's where the
Speaker 17: Third Precinct burned, and also using the police to sort
Speaker 17: of like horribly brutalize protesters against Line three, which is
Speaker 17: an oil pipeline through a bunch of indigenous land that
Speaker 17: probably I don't know, we're probably two years out from
Speaker 17: like an unbelievably horrific oil spill coming out of it
Speaker 17: that everyone's gonna go, how can we possibly have predicted this?
Speaker 17: It only had spilled a million times before, et cetera,
Speaker 17: et cetera, and that walls like rammed through and had
Speaker 17: the people who were resisting it like horribly beaten by
Speaker 17: a cop. So how do you sort of reconcile these
Speaker 17: two halves of this guy's record. And there's like a
Speaker 17: local politics explanation which I see bandied about a lot,
Speaker 17: which is true to some extent, and that explanation is
Speaker 17: that he's not really a progressive and he's mostly kind
Speaker 17: of a moderate who she's going along with a pro
Speaker 17: fairly progressive Minnesota legislature and is getting credit for just
Speaker 17: like signing bills. And that's kind of true, but it's
Speaker 17: also I think ultimately a cop out, because we are
Speaker 17: on year about one hundred and forty of the welfare
Speaker 17: state and this shit keeps happening every single time. And
Speaker 17: what's really sort of at stake here analytically is that
Speaker 17: the relationship between the welfare state and violence is significantly
Speaker 17: deeper than the record of one guy. And so today
Speaker 17: what we're going to be doing is not really talking
Speaker 17: about Tim Walls so much. What we're going to be
Speaker 17: doing is we're going to be going back through some
Speaker 17: of the history of social democracy and trying to understand
Speaker 17: how it became entangled with the sort of use of
Speaker 17: force with police violence, because I think there's a story
Speaker 17: there that's been completely buried by the tidal wave of
Speaker 17: just like I don't know whatever walls takes. And you know,
Speaker 17: I think presidential elections are something that has a tendency
Speaker 17: to just destroy everyone's analytical capacity for like two years.
Speaker 17: So yes, let's resist that and go do something interesting. Yeah, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 17: So I think the place to start with this is
Speaker 17: this is a place that we start I think not
Speaker 17: infrequent amount on this show, or at least I do.
Speaker 17: And that's the sort of original debates from you know,
Speaker 17: about the eighteen thirties through roughly the eighteen seventies early
Speaker 17: eighteen eighties, when it changes about what socialism was going
Speaker 17: to be. There's always been to some extent, like a
Speaker 17: bunch of different kind of understandings of it. But something
Speaker 17: that you know, what you'd call the sort of left
Speaker 17: wing of the Democrats, which is like everyone at that point, right,
Speaker 17: and the anarchists kind of agree about. And something that
Speaker 17: Mars agrees about with sort of the anarchists at the
Speaker 17: time is that socialism is you know, it's the free
Speaker 17: association of producers, right, you know, it is the working
Speaker 17: class abolishing itself, but then also like being the people
Speaker 17: who directly run the new society that's sort of brought
Speaker 17: about by this thing without sort of the stage or
Speaker 17: sort of political mediation.
Speaker 3: Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 17: And even you know people like Angles who are like
Speaker 17: ore statists, right, like Angles, you know, uses the theoretical
Speaker 17: justification for like every time a socialist picks up a
Speaker 17: machine gun to shoot someone and that works for the state,
Speaker 17: Like that's Angles justification for it. But even he's talking
Speaker 17: about how like one day the state will be like
Speaker 17: put on a shelf in a museum and people will
Speaker 17: walk past to look at it and then like walk
Speaker 17: by it because it's like it's a tool of a
Speaker 17: Bibegone era that nobody needs anymore. And in this period,
Speaker 17: it's very clear that socialism is we're just directly controlling
Speaker 17: the musa production and it's directly democratically managing their lives.
Speaker 17: But this becomes less clear as the eighteen hundreds go on.
Speaker 17: Something that David Grayer points out, and I think I've
Speaker 17: quoted this on the show before, but it's important here.
Speaker 17: While this is sort of going on, right, there's two
Speaker 17: kind of trends in the development of the state and
Speaker 17: the development of sort of socialist ideology. One is a
Speaker 17: move in the eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties, socialists start
Speaker 17: watching states build railroads and this drives them completely nuts.
Speaker 17: It just obliterates their brains. It's like this and the
Speaker 17: post office just like absolutely nuke their brains, and they
Speaker 17: start going, Okay, hold on, but what if instead of
Speaker 17: workers directly managing their affairs and having you know, workers
Speaker 17: coordinating like the production of society, what if instead the
Speaker 17: state did that? And socialism was literally when the state
Speaker 17: did things. And this is something that like even Angles
Speaker 17: is like pretty hostile to in the sense that like
Speaker 17: he's a status to some extent, but he also is
Speaker 17: very wary of doing things like calling state onwn enterprises socialism,
Speaker 17: right because like, well, no, obviously that's not necessarily true,
Speaker 17: because like you could just have capitalists state owned enterprises
Speaker 17: like lots of places US and includingly importantly sort of
Speaker 17: Bismarck's Germany in this period, which we will come back
Speaker 17: to in a second.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and lots of the places that people on Twitter
Speaker 3: to think are socialist paradise is today.
Speaker 17: Yeah, are just these sooe like state on enterprise hell holes.
Speaker 17: We've I talked about this extensively with China elsewhere, and
Speaker 17: this sort of like shifts the conception of what people
Speaker 17: think socialism is, and you get these more sort of
Speaker 17: reformist trends in sort of socialist circles.
Speaker 3: You get your.
Speaker 17: Cot Skis, your burn Steams, people who think that, like,
Speaker 17: you don't need a revolution. You can sort of just
Speaker 17: like you can vote your way into the state owning
Speaker 17: property and that will somehow achieve socialism, or you can
Speaker 17: sort of like stabilize capitalism and make it not bad anymore.
Speaker 17: Now that's what's happening on the socialist side. So there's
Speaker 17: this sort of project of like autonomous workers control over everything.
Speaker 17: Right that that had been the original socialist project is
Speaker 17: being eaten away on one hand from its own parties.
Speaker 17: But then on the other hand, as sort of David
Speaker 17: Error points out, the capitalist class realizes that all of
Speaker 17: these sort of autonomous institutions that the working class is building,
Speaker 17: like your unions and your giant political parties have their
Speaker 17: own sort of welfare system. The state realizes that you
Speaker 17: can replicate these and use it like a direct buy
Speaker 17: off to stop these people from revolting. I'm going to
Speaker 17: read a passage from David Graver's The Utopia of Rules
Speaker 17: outovon Bismarck's reaction to Socialist electoral success in eighteen seventy
Speaker 17: eight was twofold on the one hand, banned the Socialist Party,
Speaker 17: trade unions, and leftist newspapers on the other, while when
Speaker 17: this proved ineffective, socialist candidates continued to run and win
Speaker 17: as independents to create a top down alternative to the
Speaker 17: free schools, workers associations, friendly societies, libraries, theaters, and the
Speaker 17: large process of building socialism from below. This took the
Speaker 17: form of a program of social insurance for unemployment, health
Speaker 17: and disability, etc.
Speaker 3: Etc.
Speaker 17: Free education, pensions, and so forth. Much of it watered
Speaker 17: down versions of policies that have been part of the
Speaker 17: socialist platform, but in every case carefully purged of any
Speaker 17: democratic participatory elements. In private, at least, he was utterly
Speaker 17: candid about describing these efforts to buy out working class
Speaker 17: loyalties day as conservative nationalist project. When leff Ring regimes
Speaker 17: later did take path, the template had already been established,
Speaker 17: and almost invariably they took the same top down approach,
Speaker 17: incorporating locally organized clinics, libraries, mutual banking initiatives, workers education
Speaker 17: centers and the like into the administrative structure of the state.
Speaker 3: So there's two.
Speaker 17: Interesting things here. One is that the developments of the
Speaker 17: things that are going to become the body welfare state,
Speaker 17: this is implemented not by you know, all these sort
Speaker 17: of policies that we're talking about walls doing. Now, these
Speaker 17: were originally implemented not by the left, but very deliberately
Speaker 17: by Auto von Bismarck, like the arch late nineteen eirly
Speaker 17: twenty century conservative, the guy who is literally responsible for
Speaker 17: the foundation of Germany, right, Like, that's that's his project.
Speaker 17: He is the guy who creates the nation of Germany
Speaker 17: and thus will forever live in infamy. Is one of
Speaker 17: the most evil people in human history. The line directly
Speaker 17: from him to Hitler is incredibly straight. But the second
Speaker 17: part of this is what social democratic politics turns into, right,
Speaker 17: which is this effort to sort of central all of
Speaker 17: the sort of autonomous institutions that the working classic constructed
Speaker 17: and to centralize all of that activity into the state.
Speaker 12: Right.
Speaker 17: You know, this is like having your sort of clinics
Speaker 17: be state run, having your libraries be state run, having
Speaker 17: your like mutual banking things, like all of these things
Speaker 17: that had that had been independent institutions are folded into
Speaker 17: the state project by folding these things into the state.
Speaker 17: Graper's interested in the extent to which they become deuaucratized
Speaker 17: and the cerb democratic elements fanish entirely. I am less
Speaker 17: interested in that here, and I am more interested in
Speaker 17: the extent to which it ties all of these things
Speaker 17: to state violence. Now, James, do you know what else
Speaker 17: is tied to state violence?
Speaker 3: That was a master stroke.
Speaker 7: Me.
Speaker 3: Mac did not have that one written down. Came up
Speaker 3: on the cuff. Absolutely fantastic. Please tell me mea what
Speaker 3: is connected to day?
Speaker 17: It is the products and services that support this podcast.
Speaker 3: We are back.
Speaker 17: So we've gotten into sort of how these things that
Speaker 17: used to be mutual aid, right, these are these sort
Speaker 17: of programs that were developed by working class institutions to
Speaker 17: support each other, where we're sort of folded into the state.
Speaker 17: And now we have to get into the reverse of
Speaker 17: this process, which is how violence was folded into social
Speaker 17: democracy in the eighteen hundreds. And this is something I
Speaker 17: think is kind of well known among the extremely nerd left,
Speaker 17: but I don't know if it's very well known outside
Speaker 17: of that. But in the late eighteen hundreds and early
Speaker 17: nineteen hundreds, everyone who is like a Marxist in any
Speaker 17: stripe is a social democrat. And this is true equally
Speaker 17: of reformists like Burnstein and also people like Lenin right,
Speaker 17: like the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, both are splits from
Speaker 17: like the social Democratic Labor Party is it social Labor
Speaker 17: Party was I forget the actual name of the Party
Speaker 17: of the Swim, but it was a social democratic party
Speaker 17: of like Russia.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 17: This is the thing, like all of the communists and
Speaker 17: all the socialists like split from these sort of social
Speaker 17: democracy things, which means that inherently, and this is something
Speaker 17: that you can see reflected in the ways that they
Speaker 17: come to power and in the ways that they sort
Speaker 17: of govern. Len it is communism and social democracy are
Speaker 17: both just two variants of the same thing. And you
Speaker 17: can see this most clearly ether ways they come to power,
Speaker 17: the way they embark on this project of centralizing power, violence, production,
Speaker 17: and the organization of society into the state. Both of
Speaker 17: them take power by machine gunning their enemies, and the
Speaker 17: left with the newfound power of the state. Alongside this
Speaker 17: sort of Russian revolution, there is the German Revolution. And
Speaker 17: the German Revolution is defeated when the Social Democratic Party
Speaker 17: of Germany, which had been the Party of angles right
Speaker 17: like Marx like write stuff about their platform like this
Speaker 17: is the premier social democratic party in the world. They
Speaker 17: take power by stopping the revolution, slaughtering the communists and
Speaker 17: using the sort of proto fascist Freikorps to just kill
Speaker 17: them all. This is how Rose Luxembourg is killed. So
Speaker 17: the first social democratic government to come to power in
Speaker 17: Europe since I guess technically there was about two months
Speaker 17: in eighteen forty eight when there were also Democrats in France,
Speaker 17: but that lasted very very brief amount of time, you know,
Speaker 17: So the first time they come to power is in Germany.
Speaker 17: And in Germany they come to power in this blood
Speaker 17: bath that you know, sort of destroys like the rest
Speaker 17: of this like armed left and attempting to centralize politics
Speaker 17: and military power in the hands of the state. This
Speaker 17: is how they defeat the revolutionary movements. In Russia. Basically
Speaker 17: the same process happens. Right, There's the first revolution, which
Speaker 17: is the February Revolution nine seventeen, and then the Bolsheviks
Speaker 17: take power in the Second Revolution, and the moment the
Speaker 17: Bolsheviks take power, they spend basically the entire rest of
Speaker 17: the Russian Revolution in the Russian Civil War just straight
Speaker 17: up slaughtering every single other left wing faction in the
Speaker 17: entirety of Russia, which ends in sort of the massacre
Speaker 17: beyond Oh yeah, oh yeah, they tell a lot of
Speaker 17: Ukrainian leftist they are killing anarchists from like azuer Baijan
Speaker 17: to like fucking Spain, like a prominent appearance.
Speaker 3: In Spain kidding anarchist in May nineteen thirty seven. Yeah.
Speaker 17: In the sort of Russian context, right, this is solidified
Speaker 17: by the massacre at Kronstat where the Bolsheviks sealed there
Speaker 17: sort of opposition to any kind of like autonomous working class. Right,
Speaker 17: for the Bolsheviks, the working class is going to be
Speaker 17: directly subordinated to the Bolshevik Party and to that platform,
Speaker 17: and any dvash or any attempt to sort of like
Speaker 17: manage yourself like autonomously is just going to be stamped out, right,
Speaker 17: And Lenin's attempt to do this is going to be
Speaker 17: sort of like followed by Stalin doing this even more.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 17: And so what you have here, right, what collective ownership
Speaker 17: is in social democracy, and this is true of both
Speaker 17: the German social Democrats, who are what we think of
Speaker 17: social democrats today, right, they're sort of like electoralists, they're
Speaker 17: like capitalists, and also the Bolsheviks. What collective ownership is
Speaker 17: is the state owns things and if you try to
Speaker 17: do anything about this, they shoot you. So this is
Speaker 17: sort of the origin of like these two forms of
Speaker 17: social democracy. There's also sort of more liberal forms of this, right,
Speaker 17: like FDR does not conceive of himself as a social democrat,
Speaker 17: like he thinks of himself as a liberal when the
Speaker 17: emergan liberal tradition is a bizarre one. But you know,
Speaker 17: we actually talked about this in my episode about the
Speaker 17: time that Wizards of the Coast, the creators of magic,
Speaker 17: the Gatherery deployed the Pikerton's against the guy for revealing
Speaker 17: what was in.
Speaker 3: A magic product to her. Amazing. I think it also
Speaker 3: has some route I think in like this kind of
Speaker 3: I mean the examples I'm most familiar with the British
Speaker 3: like post eighteen thirty two Reform Act, right, like of
Speaker 3: like this paternal state benevolence. Right, they all line the
Speaker 3: same thing, right, which is state trying to buy off
Speaker 3: co opt resistance and doing so in a way that
Speaker 3: like it's karrot and stick.
Speaker 17: I guess Yeah, there's elements of this in Leninism too, right,
Speaker 17: Like Lenin's like great theoretical contribution to whatever is when
Speaker 17: Lenin talks about like trade union consciousness, people bring this
Speaker 17: up a lot because like, yeah, like there is obviously
Speaker 17: issues which is like all of your organizing being you
Speaker 17: make a trade union, and then your trade union becomes
Speaker 17: the afl CIO and tries to actually not he tries
Speaker 17: to successfully overthrows Allende and installs Pinochet, right, like there's
Speaker 17: a thing there. But when Lenin is talking about trade
Speaker 17: union consciousness, the thing that Lenin believes is that they
Speaker 17: need like middle class petite bourgeois like fucking theorists to
Speaker 17: come in and teach them what socialism is. And this
Speaker 17: is an explicit part of their theory, right, And this
Speaker 17: is the same sort of paternalisms that they have to
Speaker 17: be like led, even the sort of vanguard working class
Speaker 17: needs to be led by these like theorists who I
Speaker 17: don't know, emerge from like Lenin's friend group in exile
Speaker 17: in Switzerland or whatever. And FDR's sort of policy works
Speaker 17: as I think, it's not really understood how similar FDR's
Speaker 17: stuff is to like how the New Deal's seen at
Speaker 17: the time even by people like outside of the country
Speaker 17: as compared to like the others from massive social up
Speaker 17: people say he plays supposed to sort of Soviet com
Speaker 17: munism or even like fascism. Like Nehru, the guy who
Speaker 17: is going to become like the founding Prime Minister of India,
Speaker 17: has this whole thing in like nineteen forty one where
Speaker 17: he's look at the New Deal and he's going, this
Speaker 17: is either going to produce communism or fascism.
Speaker 3: So like the New.
Speaker 17: Deal is a fundamental rewriting of the American social contract,
Speaker 17: and a big part of it is she's doing the
Speaker 17: same thing that the social democrats are trying to do,
Speaker 17: which is that he's trying to centralize everything into the state.
Speaker 17: He's trying to centralize partially this as welfare benefits. Right,
Speaker 17: He's trying to centralize like unions very specifically into the state.
Speaker 17: And he's also trying to centralize violence into this state.
Speaker 17: Because before this, the US, I mean, we've talked about
Speaker 17: sort of Blair Mountain on behind the Bachelors before, right,
Speaker 17: like there are just open wars between the like literally
Speaker 17: capitalist armies and sort of union armies, armies formed by
Speaker 17: labor unions, not like the Union army, Like you need.
Speaker 3: To clarify this. Yeah, yeah, the great anti capitalist of
Speaker 3: the Union army.
Speaker 17: And a big part of what FDR is like running
Speaker 17: on like part of his platform is like, Okay, we
Speaker 17: need to end this like era of gun thugs, right,
Speaker 17: Like we can't have these fucking like robber barons running
Speaker 17: around with their private armist killing people. And like, yeah,
Speaker 17: that's obviously good, right, But his solution to this is, again,
Speaker 17: we're going to centralize all of the violence into the police.
Speaker 17: And unfortunately for sort of the rest of us, Right,
Speaker 17: if you're going to maintain like a capitalist system, somebody
Speaker 17: has to be pulling the triggers, and that's now the
Speaker 17: police instead of these sort of like private armies. And
Speaker 17: the other part about this bargain is that the unions
Speaker 17: also have to basically disband their armies, right because the
Speaker 17: miners are blurboutain right, they have like seventeen thousand guys,
Speaker 17: like all of them have rifles. They will go out
Speaker 17: and they will fight. They have machine guns like they
Speaker 17: have cannons.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's FDR who begins the gun control in
Speaker 3: the US for the National Firearms Act of nineteen thirty four. Right,
Speaker 3: Like they talk a lot about prohibition are of violence, right,
Speaker 3: but what happens at Blair Mountain is why you have
Speaker 3: the NFA.
Speaker 17: Yeah, and so what you have it's the same process,
Speaker 17: the process of sort of turning mutual aid into state programs.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 17: Walls is very explicitly doing this.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 17: I saw people talking about how like, oh, he's achieved
Speaker 17: the dream of the Black Panthers, like free breakfast program
Speaker 17: by like making it into the state, and it's like, no,
Speaker 17: you don't understand. The reason the Panthers were doing that
Speaker 17: was to build the roots of an autonomous society. The
Speaker 17: reason the state is doing that is so that you
Speaker 17: don't fucking revolt and you don't do twenty twenty again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are different things.
Speaker 17: Yeah, and this is something that as the US welfare
Speaker 17: state cycles through, you get various versions of this. There
Speaker 17: is another version of this that is the products and
Speaker 17: services that support this podcast by centralizing all of your
Speaker 17: money into their pockets and the music at the higher
Speaker 17: security guards.
Speaker 3: We're back.
Speaker 17: So the Great Society was just Johnson's sort of like
Speaker 17: big We're gonna end poverty thing. You know, He's doing
Speaker 17: the Vietnam War at the same time. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 17: those are the sort of domestic kind of resurgency stuff,
Speaker 17: and the central lation state viol is now being projected
Speaker 17: out and in the US it's always happening, right, The
Speaker 17: US fundamentally is a project of colonial expansion, going from
Speaker 17: fucking one coast to the other, killing everyone in your
Speaker 17: path and season their land. And the contradiction of this, right,
Speaker 17: the fact that like the people who nominally want sort
Speaker 17: of welfare state also normally are like revolted at the
Speaker 17: fact that they're burning millions of people alive, and like Vietnam,
Speaker 17: Cabodia and Laos, like, this contradiction is kind of what
Speaker 17: terrors a part of social democratic politics and what replaces
Speaker 17: it is. You know, like if social democracy is a
Speaker 17: carot and a stick, right, neoliberalism is just the stick.
Speaker 17: It's just more prisons and hit you with the thing
Speaker 17: instead of this sort of like more genteel process of
Speaker 17: while we're still hitting you with the stick. But also,
Speaker 17: here are these handouts if you don't like oppose us. Yeah,
Speaker 17: so we've talked about these examples. I want to kind
Speaker 17: of move into some more modern examples of this because
Speaker 17: I think everything I've been saying is old, right, but
Speaker 17: this stuff is still happening today in the social democracies
Speaker 17: that exist, right. Like one of the biggest examples of
Speaker 17: this is there's two kinds of social democracies that people
Speaker 17: point to, depending on where in the political spectrum they are.
Speaker 17: One is like the Nordic countries, right. And this never
Speaker 17: worked on me because one of my foundational experiences, like
Speaker 17: as an activist when I was like a little baby
Speaker 17: at fifteen year old in twenty thirteen, was talking to
Speaker 17: someone who had a mounted cavalry charge done against them
Speaker 17: by the Swedish police because they were doing an anti
Speaker 17: fascist action and trampled by fucking horses because that's what
Speaker 17: the state is. And you know, so like that's like
Speaker 17: kind of on the one hand, but the thing that
Speaker 17: we're seeing right now is, you know, the remains of
Speaker 17: the welfare state being paired with this incredible, like rabid
Speaker 17: anti immigrant violence, right. And this is the thing you see
Speaker 17: in places like France too, right, where you still sort
Speaker 17: of have the welfare state. It's also this unbelievable violence
Speaker 17: against sort of non white people and anyone who's trying
Speaker 17: to like enter the country. Yeah, I think it's was
Speaker 17: it Sweden or was it Denmark that had these laws
Speaker 17: were like they would like seize the property if any
Speaker 17: immigrant who came into the country.
Speaker 3: Jesus, I don't remember that. I know more people who
Speaker 3: have migrated to Sweden. I think I'm not familiar.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 17: They're also part of the sort of broader like European
Speaker 17: border project, which is unbelievably violent. And you're getting this
Speaker 17: with Walls too, right, he's signing on to sort of
Speaker 17: Kamala Harris's like fucking terrifying fascist border violence. And that's
Speaker 17: again because like all of this project is tied in
Speaker 17: with state centralizations. Well, okay, so what happens when you
Speaker 17: centralize the state? The answer is it starts enforcing its borders. Yeah,
Speaker 17: in order to sort of like create underclasses of incredibly
Speaker 17: dispossessed and incredibly battered and brutalized people who can be
Speaker 17: splitted for labor.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like people who are insecure with respect to the state, right,
Speaker 3: and so they can be expected by the state all
Speaker 3: by captives and this importans the state.
Speaker 17: Yeah, and you know, obviously, like the US is sort
Speaker 17: of one of the global pioneers, but like the norder
Speaker 17: social democracies are also really sort of part and parcel.
Speaker 5: Of the system.
Speaker 17: The other things I want to turn to here is
Speaker 17: is Latin American social democracies, because I talked about this
Speaker 17: at length in the Brazil episodes. Right, Brazilian social democracy
Speaker 17: Lula's like first term, right, has simultaneously this massive sort
Speaker 17: of push and social spending and then also enormous like
Speaker 17: a budget increases for the military. There's this incredible, unbelievable
Speaker 17: spike in police violence, like rate of police killings is
Speaker 17: way worse than the US. Yeah, and this is true,
Speaker 17: and like fucking all of these places, right, Like this
Speaker 17: is surely how the crew worked in twenty twenty was
Speaker 17: because the Bolivian government kept just like handing money to
Speaker 17: the police over and over again, and the police like
Speaker 17: did a cue against them.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 17: This is also true in Venezuela, which is like unbelievable
Speaker 17: rates of police killing like terrifying.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I was fair after the revolution, but I
Speaker 3: saw some of this happening, right, the revolution going from
Speaker 3: spontaneity and work is controlled and people's control to a
Speaker 3: degree to like being which happens in almost every revolution
Speaker 3: that we've seen. Right, It begins with the people, and
Speaker 3: then it becomes co opted by the state. It's wild
Speaker 3: to see like the equipment and weapons of their police
Speaker 3: on one hand, and then the poverty of yeah folks
Speaker 3: that they are policing on the other.
Speaker 17: And then this has also been Omlo's thing in Mexico, right, Like,
Speaker 17: even though he came in on the like Hugs not
Speaker 17: Bullets campaign, which for something comprehensible reasons, you still see
Speaker 17: like the fucking Washington Post writing about Omlo talking about
Speaker 17: how he was doing like hugs.
Speaker 3: Not bullets, Like she never she there was not a single.
Speaker 17: Day where he implemented that shit. She came in and
Speaker 17: immediately was like, hey, the army, do you want control
Speaker 17: of even more of the country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, it was very funny when Amla came in,
Speaker 3: right and he was doing get like hugs not bullets
Speaker 3: the English translation, and then simultaneously I was getting press
Speaker 3: releases being like, we have deployed several thousand more troops
Speaker 3: to the Tijuana area, come to the parade, and I
Speaker 3: was like, good, no, look are they huggers? They send
Speaker 3: in their tactical cut.
Speaker 17: Lula does this exact same thing in Haiti, where he
Speaker 17: goes to Haiti and he plays soccer with these kids,
Speaker 17: and he says, we will show them another way. And
Speaker 17: then just like in the backgrounte are all the armored
Speaker 17: vehicles from b resilient occupation of Haiti. It's just like, wow,
Speaker 17: oh my.
Speaker 3: God, did this show them? Sound thing?
Speaker 17: Yeah? And so the tie between this absorption of socialist
Speaker 17: politics into the state, you know, and this sort of
Speaker 17: centralization and increasing of state violence is something that continues
Speaker 17: to today. And you know, we're now kind of in
Speaker 17: the last decades probably too strong, but roughly decade we're
Speaker 17: kind of seeing social democrats like who want to break
Speaker 17: out of this in the form of the kind of
Speaker 17: like moderate abolitionists. So these are the people who are
Speaker 17: you know, whose thing is like, Okay, we're going to
Speaker 17: defund the police and we're going to like reallocate their
Speaker 17: resources to like funding welfare programs. And this is like
Speaker 17: obviously this would be good. But if you know anything
Speaker 17: about what happened after twenty twenty, none of this stuff
Speaker 17: ever happened, right, No one ever defunded the police, right, Like,
Speaker 17: there was no sort.
Speaker 3: Of movement we defunded the libraries into.
Speaker 17: The Yeah, but even on a fundamental level, like, I
Speaker 17: don't believe that this can work. And the reason I
Speaker 17: don't believe that this can work is because in order
Speaker 17: to have a state that functions, you need an apparatus
Speaker 17: of violence. It can inflict it subjects. I'm going to
Speaker 17: turn here.
Speaker 3: Oh this is a joke.
Speaker 17: You're probably not gonna get.
Speaker 16: Oh.
Speaker 17: No, I'm going to turn here to feigned political philosopher
Speaker 17: Brennan Lee Bulligan quote. Laws are threats made by the
Speaker 17: dominant socioeconomic ethnic group in a given nation. It's just
Speaker 17: a promise of violence as an act in the police
Speaker 17: are basically an occupying army.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? This is the I'm aware
Speaker 3: of this dude. He places to chess drackens on the internet.
Speaker 17: Occasionally he says something that's right. And you know, the
Speaker 17: important thing about this is that you know, without without
Speaker 17: the threat of violence behind it, right, laws are just suggestions.
Speaker 17: You can't have a state without an apparatus of violence.
Speaker 17: You can't stay in power without one. And this has
Speaker 17: always been the sort of central contradiction of social democracy.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 17: In order for Walls to have his sort of like
Speaker 17: pretty sparkling programs, he needs to have the cops to
Speaker 17: destroy you if you attempt to do anything different. And
Speaker 17: this is what twenty twenty was, right. Twenty twenty was
Speaker 17: was the most serious uprising in the US, like the
Speaker 17: most serious challenge to the authority of the sort of
Speaker 17: draychnically anti black like settler American state, right, and it
Speaker 17: was something that promised something different and even in you know,
Speaker 17: and that meant that everyone, whether you were a fucking
Speaker 17: like hardline fascist or you know, you were Tim Walls, right,
Speaker 17: your one goal was to smash it and was to
Speaker 17: deploy state violent. The state violence you had in your hands,
Speaker 17: which in this case was a National Guard, was to
Speaker 17: send them in to make sure that these people never
Speaker 17: fucking burden their police station again. And that's what happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like obviously like the ability to have I've
Speaker 3: been thinking about this a lot because I've been writing
Speaker 3: a book and I'm really trying to get it fucking finished,
Speaker 3: so I've been writing it a lot. And like when
Speaker 3: a conflict, be it one within a country or between countries,
Speaker 3: stops being between states or about what the state should
Speaker 3: do and starts being about weather the state should be,
Speaker 3: then we see the entire state system like pivoting on
Speaker 3: all its suggesting more right and just being like, no,
Speaker 3: we cannot allow this to happen. And I think we've
Speaker 3: seen that domestically to a degree in the US.
Speaker 16: Right.
Speaker 3: But like the state can't abolish itself, state won't abolish itself.
Speaker 3: The scene qua non of the state its ability to
Speaker 3: lock you up, beat you up, or shoot you up
Speaker 3: if you do what they don't want. And that will
Speaker 3: always be the state as a matter. If it's got
Speaker 3: like a hammer and sickle or like your based fucking
Speaker 3: Vasha or Alassat or whatever, like, the state will still
Speaker 3: come and kill you if you become a threat to it.
Speaker 17: Yeah, And that's the solution to what hopefully will be
Speaker 17: the title of this episode. Why did Tim Wollz call
Speaker 17: the National Guard? And the answer is to make sure
Speaker 17: that you're never going.
Speaker 1: To be free.
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