WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 142 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:02.920 Also media. 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.480 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:10.119 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:17.279 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.520 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.480 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.239 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:25.520 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:29.520 Trudio Muski to a noise to intro. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:34.280 How do we do that? That's why you get bad? 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:34.920 Can hear them? 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:40.959 Okay? Okay, yeah, yeah, here we are. That's that's the introduction. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.080 That's all you're getting, and you will be grateful for it. 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:48.760 It's it's me. It's Cherine Hi, Serene Hi, James Hi, Tarina. 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:50.760 What are we Are we doing vegetables today? Are we 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.840 doing genocide? Which part of the vegetable genoside spectrum wheel. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.400 I feel like we're closer to vegetable than genocide, but 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.560 you can argue the opposite as well, because I get 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:03.880 eat it alive by these things. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:05.160 So I don't know. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:07.600 I think we're kind of in the middle here. I 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.720 think it's a good even middle. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.080 Yeah. Yeah, we've really split the difference. Look at us go. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:16.760 it's right. It's things to eat. Shrene live today is 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.520 flesh eating bacteria day. It's not does not have a 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:25.000 flesh eating bacteria of the episode I thought we were doing. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.880 I'd like to surprise you sometimes, just see how you act. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:32.520 We're doing mosquitos, actually, shreen mosquitos yep, yep. Little guys, 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:34.000 little friendly guys. 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:37.280 Who they're not friendly and they're always little, but. 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.160 Yeah, some of them are absolute chunks. Yeah, I've seen 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.640 some big dogs recently. Did you know the mosquito shreene 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:45.160 is the most deadly animal in the world. 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:46.000 Really? 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.520 Yeah, it's an animal. Yeah, I mean it's in the 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.160 animal kingdom, right, I suppose it's insect nuisance. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.840 No, it's not insect on animals and nuisance. I guess 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:57.880 I couldn't realize it was considered the most deadly animal. 0:01:57.880 --> 0:01:59.880 Why is that just from like valeria? 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.920 Yeah, and all the other diseases at vectors. Right, it 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.840 can do parasites, bacteria, and viruses. So it's really like 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.280 a triple threat when you can get like chicken gun. Yeah, 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:10.680 Dane gay, I've got a whole list of them. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:11.960 Why are they still around? 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:13.640 That is an interesting question, Shereed. 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.200 I've always wondered that, like bees have benefits, like they 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.440 make they're cute little guys, and they make honey, and 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.120 they just want to pollinate around. 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.800 Lots of mosquitoes do too. Lots of them also, or 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.600 they don't make honey. Lots of species of mosquito just 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:28.919 feed of flowers. They're not out there to get you. 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.760 It is just the lady mosquitoes of certain species. What 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.000 was the lady insects man? The queen bee? 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:39.480 Yeah, it's the black widow. 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.480 I don't know, Yeah, it's it's true. Yeah, it's I 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:44.480 guess maybe they're a matriarchal society, you know, and. 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.240 They're like, yeah, I guess technically a spider is not insect, right, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.840 it's like a rat. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.800 Yeah, I wants to correct me on the reddits. Yeah, 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.280 please please post your genus and species stuff on the 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.000 on the reddit. I would love that. So, yeah, mosquito 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.120 say they stacking some bondies about three quarters of a 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.079 million people a year in fact, which is quite a 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.360 lot of people for then if you, yeah. 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.720 I guess we're closure to the genocide in on the spectrum. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Sadly, I know the mosquitoes don't 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:15.960 have so much agency, so I don't feel like they're 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.200 quite as like evil. You know, the word of course 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.680 a moscow no moscuite is a fly in Spanish. 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.519 And then of course, like why I don't know that, Yeah, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.120 might know that, you know, I don't know that. 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:34.400 I'm just gonna look this up. Mosquitoes or origin word. Well, now, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.240 moscuite is a fly. Ito is a diminutive ending, so 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.040 it means like a little fly, oh, little fly, yeah, 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:41.040 a fly lit. 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.680 And there's also a Spanish word that means long legged. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:46.520 Hold on from mosquito. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:51.120 The Spanish called the mosquitoes mosquetos, and the Native Hispanic 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:55.600 Americans call them zenkudos. Mosquito is Spanish or Portuguese, and 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.080 it means a little fly, while zen kudos is a 0:03:58.080 --> 0:03:59.680 Spanish word that means long legged. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.440 Ah, okay, there we go and learning the etymology today 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:05.200 here and then I didn't have that. I just had 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.320 a little fly based on it being a little fly 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.080 in Spanish. Yeah, I like the long legged. Well we 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.440 have daddy long legs, I guess, but he's a mosquito. Yeah, 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.800 So technically, mosquitoes are actually micro predators, which is kind 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.400 of a fun word. I feel like I've met some 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.920 micro predators in my time that they were not mosquitoes, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:29.120 and that is because some of them thrive by drinking 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.039 human blood. Tell me about it. Yeah, that is the reason, 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.200 sharing that you have encountered mosquito, So I want to 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.000 I want to talk first about their life cycle and 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.520 then about their their predation on charene So mosquito. Say, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.760 the eggs in stagnant water. That's water that's not moving, right, 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.960 I know some things, Jane. Okay, okay, not everyone knows 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:55.039 about stagnant water, Charine. There are listeners too. They might 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.560 not know. So their eggs hatch into lava, and the 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.039 lava become puber These stages are all aquatic, right, They 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.960 all happen in the stagnant water, right, And then the 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.919 adult mosquito hatches from the pupa and it hatches on 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:10.640 the surface and then it flies off and it sucks 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:11.279 up your evening. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.679 I don't realize that you had anything to do with water. 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.279 Yeah, that's why, like, did this not happen in La 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.000 a few years ago? They this council was like sending 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.919 people around San Diego to like scope out your garden 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.760 to see if you had standing water. Right, if that 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.680 did happen, I have no memory during arden peak. Yeah, 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.440 let's see. Uh maybe that's why, like it was peaked 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:33.400 like Zeka panic. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.000 Oh that makes sense that that would happen. 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:38.479 Yeah, yeah, it does. And we definitely get them, like 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.640 I have to put a little over side like a 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:45.760 thing that kills the eggs into my chicken water. If 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.479 I'm having a big standing thing of chicken water, Yeah, 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.320 I try and have smaller and refresh it more frequently now. 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.800 But yeah, you definitely have to be careful of stagnant water. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:56.120 And as we'll see, like one of the main ways 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.839 to control them is like limiting the amount of stagnant 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.400 water for some species only the females that a species 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.719 are the bloodsuckers, and in some cases they don't need 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.080 the blood and in other cases to lay their eggs 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.160 they need to have a blood meal as it's called, 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:18.359 which is which is a nice words unsettling. Okay. Yeah, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.279 So the mosquitoes that are vectors for human diseases, so 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.839 they're like the transportation vector vehicle for the disease between 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.360 one person and another those are the guys who often 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.280 need a little blood meal to lay their eggs. They 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.039 don't only attack people, actually, they sort of have a 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.000 preferred species, but in a pinch, they'll go after anything 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.800 with blood. And I've seen them get really thick on 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.920 cattle and stuff in the summer, or horses. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.960 Yeah, I can imagine that, yeah, because cows just sit there. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.279 I mean, if they're being mosquito attacked, they get pissed off, 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.320 but there's only so much they can do. In some cases, 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:57.320 I think it's horses. Equinumcephalitis is spread by mosquitos, so 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.719 they can actually get it. They can get diseases from 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.400 terrible little guys, and they can like literally die from 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.960 being overbitten. And if they get like completely swarmed on wow, yeah, 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:10.800 that's like if they're unable to get away from them. 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.040 Because if you have a water tank, right, and then 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:14.760 mosquitos are breeding in the tank, it's where you want 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:16.800 to keep that tank moving like right. 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.080 So it's not stagnant water, because stagnant water means it's 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:19.520 not moving. 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.960 There. You go look at that actually and putting knowledge 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.960 into action. Let that be like one of those Guo 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:28.720 linga things. Where you learn a word then use it 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.480 in a sentence exactly. Yeah, all I do is use 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:31.840 that word. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:32.240 Yeah. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.640 Yeah, So yeah, musket has come out adorn or dusk, 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.600 which is to say they are crepuscular, another word that 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:39.600 everyone already knows. 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.360 I mean, I did learn that word. I did like 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.080 an audiobook and I had to look this word up, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:45.840 and so I know what it means only because of that. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.560 But it's a very interesting word. I will say it is, 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.440 isn't It sounds like creepy, Like I would have no 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:54.520 idea what it meant if I didn't look it up, 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.160 Like there's nothing that clues me in. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:01.800 Yeah, pusculate. It sounds like yeah, because like diurnal nocturnal, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:03.560 you can kind of if you know one, you can 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.720 work out. But crepusculos coming out of fucking left field. 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:07.160 That's creps. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:08.080 Does that mean? 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:08.280 Which? 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:08.720 Remind me? 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:10.920 It means that they're active don and dust or that 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.000 they're eating it. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.800 I think it means they, Yeah, they are. I'm not 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.440 actually sure if it means it active or they're eating 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:17.480 That's a good question. 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.600 Because I feel like I've heard cats are also described 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:19.880 as that. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.400 Yeah, cats are definitely that way. Animal appearing active in 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:24.600 Twilight active. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.600 Wow, that's very poetic. The first animal I see here 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:32.439 as a cat, Yeah, lion, American woodcock, firefly, short eared owl. 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:38.959 Cool. Yeah, they real the pantheon and animals, So they 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.000 do the feeding at doorn a dusk and they actually 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.480 use compounds in your exhale breast to sniff you out, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.960 so they are they are hunting for people. They specifically 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.520 prefer to feed on people who have type O blood, 0:08:54.600 --> 0:09:00.320 an abundance of skin bacteria, high body heat, and pregnant women. Hmm, 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.240 if you fit one or all of those criteria, I 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.920 guess there's that because people like Definitely, I feel like 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:07.840 I have type of blood. Yeah, me too. I feel 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.200 like I'm victimized like more than most people by the 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.080 mosquito and they choose me. Yeah. 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.079 I feel like me and my mom are both typo 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.240 and we get you know, live, So that makes sense. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.120 Yeah, they somehow they can smell that on you. 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:22.800 I'm always cold, though, so I don't think I have 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.959 high body heat. Not always cold, but I can. I 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.240 don't know I have better circulation, not pregnant. I guess 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.000 I must have an abundance of skin bay. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.080 Yeah, it's got to be a skin bacteria and ensuring 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:35.000 by process of deduction. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.080 No, but typo makes sense. I think like that is enough. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.600 I suppose. Yeah, they because when it's a lot of them, 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.120 you know, and when one of them starts feeding on you, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.560 that's going to trigger more of them to come feeding 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:48.040 on you. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.680 How because they're like, look at this, this idiot, let's 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:51.200 go feed off. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.480 Yeah, yeah, look at this. It is delicious blood that 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.040 is TYPEO. Yeah got it? Yeah, yum yum. And then 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.560 they're giving off their little feeding sort of vibes. And 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.200 then i'll mosquitoes come, which can be useful to trap them. 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.679 But that's a fair point. The trapping of mosquitoes, as 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:08.880 I learned when I was doing this, very fucking interesting. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.880 Actually, ooh, okay, tell me more. Actually maybe not now, 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:12.839 but whenever you get to it. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.199 Yeah, well we'll get to it, tune. They have a 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:21.120 very interesting set of mouth parts and including the labium, 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.040 which is like a gutter shaped tube mouth tube, I guess, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.080 and it's super sharp and they can use it to 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.880 saw through your skin painlessly, so you never that's why 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:30.480 you don't feel. 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:32.640 So that's that's the needle looking thing. Yeah, it's like 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:34.440 the little thing they poke you with. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.480 Then well they do that, then they have little needle 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.559 looking things that kind of that it contained within the 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.240 gutter shape that they used to suck out your blood. Gross. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.000 Their saliva stops your blood from clotting, and it prevents 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.160 vascular constriction in the area where they're biting, so they 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.000 can get a little bit extra blood before it clots. 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.680 I guess some people can become desensitized to their bites 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.200 over time. If you're getting bit and all the time, 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.720 others can become more sensitive and then increased sensitivity is 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:04.360 known as Sketos syndrome Skeeter syndrome. Look up and what 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.880 it looks like. Because I'm very sensitive to them. Okay, 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.440 maybe we've got two diagnosed es in one episode. We've 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.400 got skin bacteria and Sketa syndrome. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.560 I don't know what I need to have to have 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.560 Skeeter syndrome, but I will say I'm extreme insensitive to 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:22.360 mosquito bites. When I get bitten, they become gigantic. 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:23.400 I won't even know. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.120 I'll won't itch them because I know not to at 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:28.360 this point, but I'll get these like gigantic welts essentially 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.880 and they're bright pink, and then over the course of 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:33.839 like a week or something, and they become bright red 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.480 and they look like someone put paint on my leg. 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:40.600 It's like it's a crazy color of red. And then 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.640 when they eventually do stop itching, I'll have that welt 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.240 there in that red mark for like. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:50.920 Months, damn months. It's like it becomes like this weird scar. Yeah, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.000 you could be a syndrome, I guess so. 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.040 I will say when I was a kid in Syria, 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.640 when we would go visit there, they have so many 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.440 mesquita I got you alive because we'd go there in 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.559 the summer too. But there was one time I got 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:09.000 bit in on my eyelid like this, that sucks, and 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.120 so I genuinely couldn't open my eye for like a 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:12.720 week and a half. 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:14.640 That was the worst one. I think I'm like that 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.800 with bee stings, like they they swell up like crazy. 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.680 Like I don't think I'm like anaphylactic, but a couple 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.319 of times. One time I was racing in Laguna Seca, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.960 which is like a car racing track in Monterey, and 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.720 I'm racing along, and I guess I'm riding along with 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.800 my mouth open. It's just just like you know, thriving 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.640 and a mosquito flew in and bit me. I do 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:44.560 a mosquito a bee, and my whole face just was 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:49.640 like in your mouth. Yeah, it was crazy. It was bad, Shane, Yeah, 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.440 it was fucked. One had just stung me before, like 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.040 the extent which I swell at when beasting me. I 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.240 got stung in the leg on a training ride and 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.920 I had to upgrade to like exit shorts because like 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:07.719 my thigh just become like yeah, and then one got 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:08.240 me in the mouth. 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:08.520 Yeah. 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.800 Shit, it was a bad day. I had epipain, I 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.679 had I think I had some ivy bedded drill at 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:15.760 some point. Oh yeah, it was fucking well. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.000 I mean, I'm glad you're not in a phylactic, but 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:19.079 it's pretty close, I guess. 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.600 Yeah. Yeah, it's better you can get one time I got. 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.360 I got stung in a face when I was trying 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.000 to go to lecture as well, and like walked in 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.800 with like elephant man face and my stream Well we're 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:30.240 just like, dude, it's. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.520 Like those photos or videos you see of like animals 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.480 like a dog at a to b and their faces 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:35.400 like gigantic. 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.560 Yeah, yeah, it is uh it's dogs. Do you love 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:39.120 to eat peas? 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:40.839 I will say, I don't know if you've ever done 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:42.720 twenty three and me, but I did it years and 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.760 years ago for another show I was on and on 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.200 twenty three and meters. You can select if you want, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.880 like health traits as well as like ancestral traits or 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.760 whatever like yeah, and on that it said I am 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.080 more likely to get a bitten by mosquitoes they gay. 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:57.960 Maybe it just need your blood type. But I didn't 0:13:57.960 --> 0:13:59.240 give them my blood and even my spit. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.800 Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's crazy. Maybe that's something 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.800 in your book time. I don't know. We've just discovered 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.480 that Shream is on a eugenics podcast. 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.920 No, it was as for my podcast that was about 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:12.160 this is tea? 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.600 Okay, Yeah, some real problematic folks do love twenty three 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.080 in me. It's very funny when the white nationalists gone 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.640 twenty three in me and find out how they get upsets. Yeah, 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.920 I love that and it is always fun to see. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.080 So the real problem with mosquitos is not just that 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.160 they make you a trip, but they're vectors for disease. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.440 They infect seven hundred million people a year with their 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.960 little bitey mouths. They can spread all kinds of diseases, 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.040 including viruses, parasites, and bacteria. Some of their greatest hits 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:45.080 include yellow fever, Dangay malaria, Tuderimia zeka, chicken gunya, and 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.240 West Nile virus. Speaking from experience, some of those are 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.000 really shit and you are best avoiding all of those. 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.520 That's going to be my advice to you as a doctor. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.760 In one European history, it really fucking sucks to get 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.600 some of these. I've had some diseases from some mosquitos, 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.320 and I would not recommend. The mosquitoes don't actually get 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.760 sick themselves, and it's like it's immune system can destroy 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.960 the virus, but if it bites someone else and then 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.080 bites you before it's immune system destroys the virus' genetic code, 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.760 you can get sick and at some parasites. Apparently malaria 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.720 can make mosquitoes more apt to go biting. It's interesting. 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.960 It kind of turns them into zombie brain mosquitos. That's 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.560 how I like to think about it. With malaria, which 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.920 is kind of the main mosquito vector disease. I guess 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.240 that we think about the parasite replicates in the liver 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.840 cells and then moves about by the bloodstream. If you 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.720 get bitten again, the blood could then pass that malaria 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.760 to the next victim of the mosquito. I'm going on 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.360 a trip soon for work. I'll probably be on it 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.080 when you will hear this, And like, because people are 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.920 traveling more, all these different diseases are becoming more common. Right, 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.240 They're endemic in one area, and then people come from 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.440 that area to another area, and then mosquitos are hopping 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.960 around when they're in a new area. That then thats 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.440 rereading in that area. So I was talking to some folks, 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.800 like on the areas where migrants travel north, all the 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.360 types of malaria are now currently present, which is great 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.280 because you've got people from all over the world, right, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.280 and then the mosquitoes are hopping from someone from China 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:22.200 to someone who's come from Mauritania and spreading their little 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.880 mosquito vector diseases around. So that is bad treating. Do 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:27.720 you know what else is bad? 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.880 I'm sorry my mind was so blank. But ads are 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.440 They're not bad. Ads are great. As are so. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:48.880 Good that we love them. Yay, ads, Okay, we're back, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.720 and I want to talk about how we stop the 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.720 mosquito menace, please help. So I'm going to talk about 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:57.680 eliminating them, and then I'm going to talk about some 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.280 products and services actually that you can avail yourself off. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.160 I've been thinking about this a lot recently for work reasons, right, Yeah, 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.480 doing some jungle travel in the next few months. So 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.160 how do we prevent them from biting us? First of all, 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.000 we can stop them having little useful pools of stagnant 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.600 water to replicate in right Like, this means like, if 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.119 you're like me, One of my friends referred to my 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.360 my garden as a quote Alaska yard, which I think 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.000 is a is a way of saying that it's a 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.919 mess and there are lots of like car parts and 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.720 like little little things that I am fixing soon, you know. 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.840 And I guess having an Alaska yard is bad for 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:39.040 the mosquitos, like especially things like tires, right Like, you know, 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.040 if you have a big car tire, water pools in there, 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:42.760 and they can have a little breed in there, same 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.439 as buckets in marshy areas, what people do is they 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.360 dig ditches that allows water to move so that water 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.680 doesn't sit completely still, and then introducing certain fish. It 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.400 can also help. Certain fish will eat, including the mosquito 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.920 fish will eat the lava of the mosquito tilapia. Also 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:01.679 this so like you can have a nice little if 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.200 you're a person who eats fish, a nice still situation 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.560 where you're reducing the disease burden. And also like providing 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.680 a food source, which is something they're working on, that 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.760 you can drain swamps. Of course, Donald Trump famously has 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.359 drained the swamp right, yeah, I hear no malaria do 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:19.800 you see anymore because of Donald Trump? But doing so 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.359 obviously destroys an important habitat. Certainly you don't want to 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.720 just be draining swamps. I was reading about something in 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.960 Florida they do called rotational impound management, where they kind 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.440 of allow water levels to fluctuate and then they have 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.360 these clever little gates that mean that that other species 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.520 like the fish and the crustaceans can move about that 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.200 they're keeping them water moving to stop the little mosquito eggs. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.600 For me, the other way to do it is to 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.080 try and kill them, right, So, there are various ways 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.080 of doing that. One of them is to create an 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:47.960 environment where they would want to lay their eggs, but 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:52.199 then have that environment kill their eggs. So there are 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.520 various at home ways of doing this, so like you 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.439 could make a stagnant water thing and then blitz up 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.160 the eggs or filter them out, or you can put 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.320 things with oversides in there which to kill the eggs. 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:06.959 Some of them also kill the mosquitos when they come 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.000 and lay their eggs. You can also use their little 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.320 hunting senses against them, right, so you can create an 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.240 environment that attracts them either by seeming like a person 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.320 or by seeming like a good place for them to breed, 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.000 and then you can filter out the eggs from where 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.040 they lay them right, or you can kill them when 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.240 they come on in. There are things called lava sides. 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.359 Maybe that's what I'm using with my chicken thing actually 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.199 that destroy the lava. There are little bricks that you 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:36.200 dissolve in your water. And there are some pretty low 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:38.800 risk insecticides that you can use, and there are also 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:43.080 higher risk in sexicides, or at least underpopular intexticides. And 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.439 this is where a friend of the Cauzone media network 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:49.800 DDT comes in. Are you familiar with DDT Treed? 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:50.320 No? 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.119 There are friends, Yeah, there are friends. We love DDT 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.359 Big Appetize on pod We love them because until about 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:01.399 sixty years ago, the US government love to DDT. Right 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.879 it's an insecticide. They would put it in walls, in mattresses, 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.040 people rubbed their pets with it. For a while, people 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.960 thought they treated polio. They would even go through towns 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:17.560 spraying down whole neighborhoods with DDT. Right, and people kind 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.240 of became aware the DDT actually isn't a great idea 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.320 both pre ecological and health reasons about sixty years ago, 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.600 when Rachel Carson published a book called Silent Spring. It's 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.439 kind of one of the foundational texts of the environmental movement, right, 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.280 And I think people often credit like Rachel Carson with 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.439 being the only person that that's not necessarily true. Like 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.520 you can look at migrant farm workers actually and see 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.040 that they have been for a long time being Like, 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.280 I don't think it's great that you're dosing us with 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.280 this pesticide all the time. Like maybe maybe stop spraying 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.320 us with the DDT. You stopped playing the places. I 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:50.840 want to quote a really good piece there in the 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.440 New Republic on DDT. We now know that DDT causes 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.159 tumors in myce and rats. It thins birds eggs to 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.719 the point that mothers indiversally crushed their gestating offspring. It 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.240 may disrupt bird sense of orientation, sending them out to 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.119 see to die. It fundamentally alters the reproductive ordinance of 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.720 a array of critters. It can poison animals even decades 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.640 after spraying has ended. Further, a growing body of evidence 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.480 has linked DT to numerous forms of cancer in humans, 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.919 especially breast cancer. Studies have shown how the levels of 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.800 DDT in our bodies track inequalities in human society. For instance, 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.879 there are higher DDT levels in black people than in whites, 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.439 and higher levels in poor people than in rich ones. 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:31.320 Sounds like you reliant to me when you said that 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:32.119 there are friends. 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:35.399 Yeah, I feel like within the cool zone media network 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:40.120 of making podcasts about evil shit DDT I think fits perfect. 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:44.400 That's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. There's recently like a resurgence 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:47.719 in I guess like people standing DDT again and then 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.760 questioning some of it, like research around it. But we 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.000 know for sure that it's ecologically damaging, and what we 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.720 don't know is the consequences of wiping out a bunch 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.399 of species in the ecosystem. So we probably don't want 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.520 to use DDT. One thing we can do to kill 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.640 them is they introduce predators, which is kind of cool. 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.240 Tilapia is one predator. Dragonflies or another. I love a dragonfly. 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:12.080 Big interesting flies. So like in Bikina Faso, they're working 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:16.600 on a fungus with a mosquito specific neurotoxin, which is 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.320 kind of cool. It can just grow and kill the mosquitos. 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:22.720 The World Mosquito programs also trialing a bacteria that when 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.760 mosquitos carry it, it amps up their immune system, so 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:29.600 like they kill the virus or the parasite or whatever 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:32.000 it is more quickly, so then they're less lightly to 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.720 be vectors. There's also programs which introduce male mosquitos which 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.960 are not able to have kids either they're sterile or 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.760 they're breeding results in eggs that won't hatch, so that's 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.720 kind of interesting control the population that way. And they 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:50.760 also have these really interesting genetically modified mosquitos that need 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:55.040 antibiotic tetracycline to grow. So they raise a batch in 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.879 the lab and gives them the tetracycline that they need right, 0:22:57.960 --> 0:22:59.639 and then they let them out to breed and then 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.520 when they read because they're young don't have tetracycline that 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.120 they don't grow and they don't make it. It's really 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:07.960 interesting to think about. Like some folks are advocating for 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.520 completely eradicating them, just wiping them off the face of 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:13.560 the planet, which would seem to have many benefits, right 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:16.399 with all these diseases that they vector. I'm one of 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:20.159 those people. Yeah, you're a mosquito genocider. I found it's 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:24.400 interesting pieces that they're like a forest's defense mechanism against humans. 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.640 Like if we look at that, like the ecosystem's. 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.960 Way of being like get out of here, yeah. 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.919 Like leaves this place alone. Yeah, which is interesting, But 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:35.800 like I know, it's hard because the people who mostly 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.560 die from mosquito vector diseases and the people with the 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:42.159 least access to resources, right, right, Yeah, even things like 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.200 you know, when you're very sick with some of these things, 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.960 you need to be you know, kept hydrated and kept 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:49.639 cool as your temperature gets up and stuff, and you 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:51.439 don't have AC and you maybe you can't get an 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:55.200 IV or whatever, like a very preventable death could occur, 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:58.960 right and so right, it's hard, real hard for me 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.439 sitting in America to be like, no, we shouldn't. But 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.320 I guess I understand that argument. But if we go 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:08.400 about it by fucking dousing whole areas and DDT again, 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:10.800 then that's not great either, right, that can have it. 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:14.000 That can then can have it downside. Anyone else has 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:17.960 its downside, shrim It's having to pivot to add every 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:22.080 ten to fifteen minutes in this job that we do. 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:34.320 So we're going to do it now we're back. We 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:39.240 are entering the final trimester of our podcast. And yeah, 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:42.000 if you like that, I'd like to. I'd like to 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.960 think of them as trimesters, the last slice of this 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:48.080 little podcast cake for you guys. So I wanted to 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:52.720 present some little strategies I like to use please when 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:55.800 I am going to places where I am worried about 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:57.919 being eaten alive by the little flies. 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.600 Wait, okay, you see all these like di I like 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.640 this is how track mosquito somewhere else. But like none 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:05.400 of those have been mentioned, So is that all bullshit? 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:07.280 What do they taught me through it? I don't know. 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:08.720 I have to look it up, but I feel like 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:10.320 I've seen like little things where it's like put this 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:13.320 bucket of water here, or like put like lemon or 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:16.359 honey or like something to attract like general insects and 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:20.359 then mosquitos or like even like light can attract mosquitoes. 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:22.760 They put like a light somewhere. But this sounds all 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:23.520 like bullshit. 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:25.320 Now, yeah, you can do that. You can even use 0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:27.600 a fan, right because I know it's very good flyers 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:29.920 like they you can just kind of blow them away 0:25:29.920 --> 0:25:33.880 from you. So yeah, in terms of like small scale 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:37.359 mosquito prevention, yeah, I'm going to get into some of those, Okay, cool. 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:39.959 The most useful thing for me is mosquito in its actually, 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:41.960 so like in the jungle, I like to sleep in 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:45.240 a hammock. This one called the Jungle Nest. The Eagles 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:47.159 Nest outfit is make that has like a built in 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.280 mosquito net. That's nice. Yeah, it's really nice. Like I 0:25:50.359 --> 0:25:51.680 like it so I don't have to fuck around with 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:54.120 like draping it and worry about like the little gaps, 0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:56.119 right yeah, And I use that a lot. I use 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:57.760 a whole little system that they make, and it's it's 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:00.840 really nice. If I'm in hotels, seat a Summit makes 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:03.919 a sleeping bagliner. A I like to take seking bagline 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:07.160 out when I'm going places like I got fucking fleas 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.240 from a hotel bed in Rwanda. Oh no, yeah, it 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:12.920 was bad, like if you think mosquito had to try 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:15.960 it having And for people who haven't seen me, I'm 0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:19.520 a hairy person, like have long hair and had a beard, 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:22.920 and fleas were just upon me and it was bad. 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:25.800 So I like to take a little sleeping bagliner. Now 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:29.320 that's treated with a mosquito repellent. But it must be 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:31.840 safe for skin and stuff though, right, yeah, yeah, it's 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:35.160 it's embedded in the fabric called permethrine. We'll talk about 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:37.320 it in a second. It's the last thing I use 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:40.040 is a head bugnet. I'm a massive advocate for the 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:43.440 head bugnet. I know you look like a complete lemon, 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:47.720 but like it's just I don't like to be bitten 0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:50.440 in the face. No, I have been bit in the face, 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:53.320 so yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, take it from Charine 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:56.479 bite survivor. If you have a brimmed hat, it's much 0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:59.160 nicer because it sort of hangs in front of your face. Then, 0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:00.760 but I wear with these all the time. If you 0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:03.239 like to see wildlife, it's nice to you because it's 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:05.840 kind of camouflaging, like it takes the glare off your face. 0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:08.439 You get really bad in sticks up in Scotland, like 0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:10.399 when I've been out there in the summer time at 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:12.520 Form one, and I wear a lot in California, like 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:15.399 there are some places like to hike where we have 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:18.520 year round water here, but it's definitely pretty gross by 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:19.960 like the end of the summer. You know, it's like 0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:22.240 it's been sitting for a while. But water is a 0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:24.359 bit constraint on your on your hiking out here, right, 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.679 so you kind of need it. So I'll go down 0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:29.000 there and filter my water. But I wear my little 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:31.760 bug face net and it works great. I love it. 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:35.960 So after that, you can also do repellance. These come 0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:37.520 in two forms, so it's the one that you put 0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:40.960 on your clothes and the ones that you put on 0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:43.359 your body. Right. The one that you put on your 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:47.520 clothes is called permethrine. The thing with permethrin is that 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.639 it's a neurotoxin for cats, which is very bad for cats. 0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:53.679 So Soya makes a little spray bottle of it and 0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:55.960 you can spray it on your own clothes and treat 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:58.119 them right. But if you have cats you have you 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:00.480 must do this outside like you can't do in your house. 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:03.240 With your cats. It's safe once it's dry, so that 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:06.040 you can spray them, let them be on your washing 0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:08.199 line or what have you, and then and then when 0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:10.560 it's dry you can you can bring them aside and 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:13.880 then it's safe, honestly, Like you can also send them 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:16.439 off to a company I think it's called Insect Shield 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:18.480 and they'll spray them for you. In the way they 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:20.840 do it somehow bonds it for much longer, like normally 0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:23.480 at lasts for about six washes, but with them you 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:25.919 can get like ten times as many washes. You can 0:28:25.960 --> 0:28:29.840 also buy shit, like I've just got a hoodie from 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:32.679 a company called First Light, who make like fancy hunting 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:35.720 stuff that has the insect stuff built in. Yeah. I 0:28:35.800 --> 0:28:37.320 like that because then if you have a hoodie as well, 0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:38.760 you can put you know, you get like a lot 0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:41.239 of coverage. But like, if a cat likes sat on 0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:44.560 this clothing, it's fine now because it's bonded. Yeah, your 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:46.160 cat could like go and curl up in it and 0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:47.720 then have a sleep and things. So even if it 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:50.840 gets wet, that's okay. It's when the permethro in itself 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:54.360 is wet the first application, that's when it's risky. Okay, 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:56.200 I see, I see. If you're going to do that, 0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:58.719 you want to do your socks as well, because they 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:00.000 fucking love to bite around the ankle. 0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:03.360 Yep, my legs are their prime target. 0:29:03.520 --> 0:29:06.600 Yeah, that's their their favorite area to bite here. I 0:29:06.640 --> 0:29:07.240 don't know why. 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:10.280 I mean, they're probably easier to access and you're less 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:12.720 likely to see them, I suppose, like and also I 0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:15.880 feel like if you're sitting, you're moving probably your upper 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:17.120 body more than your lower body. 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:19.320 So it's like, I don't know, Yeah, it's still like 0:29:19.360 --> 0:29:23.200 it sneak in their lasted. So things to like repel them. 0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:26.920 One of them is have you seen the thermo cells? 0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:29.840 Are you familiar with them? It's a brain called off 0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:33.480 that makes them too. It emits something called metha fluthern 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.520 and Metha Lutheran is like a non toxic I was 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:40.560 looking at the EPA guidelines for this. It's mostly non toxic. 0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:44.200 It should be fine in your house, but it is 0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:49.000 toxic to aquatic invertebrates, fish and bees. Because with all 0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:50.840 these things that, I don't want to just be spraying 0:29:50.840 --> 0:29:54.480 and insecticide into the world, right like yeah, and damaging 0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:59.360 like innocent non micro predators. So what the thermo cell 0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:01.040 does is you know what people have those little things 0:30:01.040 --> 0:30:02.880 in their houses where they put an essential oil in 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:05.640 and it puffs and picture house not nice. Yeah, it's 0:30:05.680 --> 0:30:09.280 like that. It's like that, okay, and it does that. 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:13.479 But with this metaphlutherin and they work okay, like if 0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:15.560 you're in your tent stuff they work like they don't 0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:18.320 work if it's windy, they don't really work. They can 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:19.880 be nice, like if you set them up and let 0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:21.239 them get going for a while and then come into 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:23.280 a space, they can be really nice. And then you 0:30:23.320 --> 0:30:25.160 have other things like a fan. You can have the 0:30:25.200 --> 0:30:28.920 electric traps, right, which kind of bring even electrocute them. 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:32.440 How do those electric traps attract them? Just the light 0:30:32.520 --> 0:30:33.080 or like what I. 0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:34.840 Think it's a UV light because yeah, it has that 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:37.440 really bright I actually don't know they think that electrocutes 0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:38.920 them like when they land on it, right, Yeah, I 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:39.600 think it's the light. 0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:40.240 Yeah. 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.160 Those seem to be like a more multi purpose insect 0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:46.760 zappa though, right, So I've not preferred those. I don't 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:49.520 want to be killing everything else, like just try and 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:52.560 you know, leave no trace. And then the last thing 0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:54.960 is for some reason I've become obsessed with this recently, 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:57.560 the different creams you can put on yourself to stop 0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:00.800 mosquitoes going away. Ideally you canind of layer up all 0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:03.480 the things right to limit, you know, like the amount 0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:05.320 of just chemicals you have to rub on your skin. 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:08.440 Deep is the most popular one. People are pretty familiar 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:10.120 with Deep. It was developed by the US Army in 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:13.200 the forties. The big thing with D is it's really 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.120 hard on plastics. So I'm not a contact lens or 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:19.719 glass wearer. I don't know a contact lens is made 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:23.320 of glass or plastic? Isn't the wrong person? Man? Okay, yeah, 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:26.640 I have worn both, and I have no idea. I'm 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:28.840 going to say, like a that's with that perfect vision. 0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:30.720 I have won neither, So I don't know. 0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:33.240 I mean, I don't think it's crazy who was made 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:34.920 out of glass or plastic? 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:35.200 Right? 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.120 What are contact lenses? 0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:42.200 Welcome to the portion of podcast. We're sure he googles 0:31:42.200 --> 0:31:42.400 the thing. 0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:45.720 I guess there are types of plastic, but not the 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:47.760 kind of plastic that comes to mind when you hear 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:52.440 the word high tech polymers that allow oxygen to flow through. 0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:56.480 To reach the cornea body body blow. So I guess, yeah, sure, yeah, 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:57.560 be careful with your deep. 0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:00.000 They actually there's a question that says our contacts glass 0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:02.120 or plastics. So I guess I'm a dummy because that's 0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:03.040 a legitimate question. 0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:05.520 No, it's a good question. That just like sounds crazy 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:08.360 to me. Anyway, I don't know if the deep can 0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:11.560 get to them. It can definitely, Oh yeah, it does 0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:15.040 contact lenses. There we go. It can damage your contact lenses. 0:32:15.040 --> 0:32:17.040 It definitely will mess with your rain gear, your tent, 0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:22.280 your sunglasses, especially in higher concentrations. So like deep you 0:32:22.280 --> 0:32:23.920 can get ten percent deep, you can get one hundred 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:27.080 percent deep. You get maximum protection at thirty percent deep. 0:32:27.200 --> 0:32:30.160 So after that it's just you're buying yourself more time 0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:35.360 between applications. Also, it gets more concentrated your risking damaging 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:37.400 your gear. And like, I don't like the way it 0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.440 makes my mouth feel, like with the spray. If you 0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:44.240 spray it, you get this like metallic dry mouth. It 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:47.480 seems like you're killing yourself when you walk into a 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:48.120 cloud of deep. 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:49.360 Okay, cool, cool, cool. 0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:52.840 I like pickcard in. It's a synthetic version of a 0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:55.360 element that's found in pepper plants. Yeah, that's what I 0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:57.440 usually use when I go camp. Yeah, there a little 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:00.800 Soayer makes a really nice piccard. Eventually it's got like 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:04.520 a blue label on the bottle. Yeah, that's what I use. Yeah, Soyer. Yeah, 0:33:04.760 --> 0:33:07.200 we like Sawyer. I got to try. The reason I've 0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:10.600 I've suggested so many Soy products is because the Sawyer Foundation. 0:33:10.640 --> 0:33:13.400 We're there in the Marshal Islands when I was there. Nice, 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:15.200 I mean I like their sh yeah, I do. I 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:17.040 think they're really cool company. Actually, they seem to make 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:21.600 stuff that like solves problems and then just keep making it. 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:24.200 They don't make a new thing every year, different color 0:33:24.240 --> 0:33:26.920 and trying and rehype it, you know. Like they did 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:28.520 really cool shap in the Marshal Islands. It's cool to 0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:31.840 see and like. Yeah, as companies go, I think they're 0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:34.240 pretty right on. They also gave us some water filters 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:36.600 to help with the migrants the other day, which is 0:33:36.680 --> 0:33:39.360 very nice of them. We needed some water filters for 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.360 folks crossing the border and they gave us some. So 0:33:41.640 --> 0:33:44.440 they are my friends. But yeah, their one is good. 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:46.240 They make a nice sun cream actually as well, so 0:33:46.280 --> 0:33:48.160 you can you can double dip there. I'm sure it's 0:33:48.160 --> 0:33:51.240 not up to the standards of your your imported sun creams, but. 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:54.800 That means sunscreen British translation. 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:57.720 Yeah, yeah, if you can't make the logical leap from 0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:01.240 suncream to sunscreen, yeah, that is. That is what I'm 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:02.040 talking about. 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:04.800 In the British defense though it's definitely a cream and 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:06.000 not a screen. 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:09.720 So yeah, that's on us. Yeah, another incidents of British excellence. 0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:14.600 Oh my god podcast to be fair one of the 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:16.319 few what have we got? We've got that we have 0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:19.279 the baking show and that's about it. Yeah, kind of 0:34:19.280 --> 0:34:22.640 think of much else. So there are also like natural ones, 0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:25.160 you know, like citronella is the one that people like. 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:28.040 But I have just found that those don't work very well. 0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:29.680 I feel like it's a hit or miss. Yeah I 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:31.400 was gonna say, I feel like it's like kind of 0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:31.880 for fun. 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:34.760 Yeah, like you'll feel great that you've done something. 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:35.480 Yeah. 0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:37.480 I think they just work by being strong smells that 0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:38.960 kind of mask your other smells. 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:39.680 Hm. 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:43.160 And you can get synthetic and natural plant oils, and 0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:45.160 there are people who will sell you bracelets with like 0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:47.480 a little thing that's supposed to secrete the citronella. 0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:50.160 Oh, I use I've used those. The ones I have 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.359 used look like like phone cords that are all spirally. Yeah, 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:56.359 the little bracelets and I have filled my ankles, put 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:59.279 them on my wrists. Sometimes they work and sometimes I 0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:02.640 look like a but I don't know, so it was 0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:03.840 worth I've tried everything. 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:07.279 Yeah, sometimes I just burned incense and that kind of works. Again, 0:35:07.280 --> 0:35:08.880 I think this kind of it's a strong smell and 0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:11.760 the mosquitoes don't like it. Okay, that makes sense. Having 0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:14.200 incense and a box fan is not a bad solution. 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:17.320 Like I've done that in places where you know, nothing 0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:21.000 else was available. That's pretty good. But yeah, if you're 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:23.120 in a place where this is a problem, and it's 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:25.440 becoming a bigger problem, right, the world is getting hotter, 0:35:25.719 --> 0:35:29.799 the climate is changing. These swampy marsh areas are drying up, 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:32.560 so we're getting more stagnant water and less through flow. 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:35.600 Like this is becoming a bigger problem, and our healthcare 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:38.560 system is continuing to be fucked and getting worse, certainly 0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:41.320 in the United States, but so United Kingdom and other places. 0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:45.040 So yeah, be careful of the mosquitoes. Remember to do 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:49.160 your sun cream before you're before your mosquito cream or 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:54.520 lotion or whatever you're using, screen your mosquito screen. That's 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:56.600 sort of a I got a mosquito scream? You got 0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:57.560 anything to add? 0:35:57.800 --> 0:35:59.880 No, I think that's a good little summary about what 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.959 to do for mosquitos. I hate mosquito so much, and 0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:04.680 I'm one of those people that don't think they should 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.439 be around. But since they are, I guess we got 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:10.120 to deal with them. So, Yeah, it's nice to know 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.160 that I use like a good thing. Like I think 0:36:13.200 --> 0:36:14.879 if I use something that you use, I'm like, wow, 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:15.360 I did. 0:36:15.200 --> 0:36:21.800 Something right, so to get way ahead of me on 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:23.799 the on the sun cream. 0:36:24.400 --> 0:36:27.560 But no, I think it's a it's helpful to know. 0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:31.080 I'm sure many people out there are sensors to mosquito 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:32.080 bites and anything will. 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:35.680 Help if they I don't know. Yeah, it sucks. 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:39.719 It's getting so hot and they're everywhere. And now what's 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:42.480 really bothering me is that they're getting smaller and harder 0:36:42.520 --> 0:36:44.480 to see, but they're just as annoying. 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:47.960 Yeah, the bite still even if there's yeah, yeah, you've 0:36:47.960 --> 0:36:50.439 got to get a really fine mesh field mosquito nets 0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:53.120 for that. You can't be using other products. Yeah, I 0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:54.719 don't have a mosquito net. I should go one. Yeah, 0:36:54.719 --> 0:36:56.879 I get a mosquito net. I love a head mosquito net. 0:36:56.920 --> 0:36:59.520 It's great. It serves you some. It stops the mosquitoes 0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:02.520 biting you, it stops other people talking to you. Wow, 0:37:02.840 --> 0:37:04.760 it's a great, great thing to have. Yeah. 0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:07.840 I have seen these videos of like someone having a 0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:09.840 mosquito on it on them and then like the mosquitoes, 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.160 you see it poking and not being able to reach. 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:16.319 It's kind of funny, like mosquito ares very funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:37:16.760 --> 0:37:19.880 yeah cool. Yeah, thanks James. Yeah, that's why it's a 0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.240 podcast brought to you by me hyper focusing on things, 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:26.279 which is what I do, is the way I deal 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:29.239 with my anxiety about going to places which aren't necessarily 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:33.279 places people go for fun. Word all right bye. 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:50.800 So yeah, welcome to cut Up Here. I'm Andrew Siege 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:54.480 from the Future Channel Andrewism and I'm joined today by James. 0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:56.400 It's me Hi, Andrew, So James. 0:37:56.719 --> 0:37:58.600 Just before the show we were talking about it a 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.719 couple of different places that we've either been to or 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:05.840 would like to visit. Have you ever been to the Andes. 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:08.640 No, anything I have, Actually i'd like to I like mountains. 0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:12.240 Yeah, the Andes is one of my bucket list destinations 0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:15.160 for sure. They've always enticed me, you know, as a 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:19.120 place of settlement, a center of culture, a place of 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:22.040 political struggle. So you know, I had to do an 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.920 episode or the development of anarchistsinicalism in Peru. So they 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:30.040 continuing along with my previous research on anarchism and other 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:34.240 parts of the world, much information I've gathered as thanks 0:38:34.280 --> 0:38:36.840 to the work of Stephen J. Hush and they shoudn't 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:40.680 found the world, particularly anarchism and cynicalism in the colonial 0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:44.319 and post colonial world eighteen seventeen, nineteen forty. And you know, 0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:47.880 people don't usually think of Peru when they think of 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:51.800 anarchistsinicalist struggles, not even in the context of Latin America. 0:38:52.760 --> 0:38:55.759 Folks familiar with that history would quicker consider Brazil or 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:59.480 Argentina as sites of anarchistsinicalism. You know, in Brazil, the 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:01.600 roots of anarchism could be traced back to the late 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:05.319 nineteenth century, to the influence of European immigrants, and by 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:08.840 the early twentieth century had anarchist ideas keen interaction across 0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:12.239 the working class, with the establishment of various associations and 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:16.800 newspapers like the Brazilian Workers Confederation founded in nineteen oh six. 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:19.759 Anarchists would play, of course, a crucial role in the 0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:23.920 General strike of nineteen seventeen, and then, unfortunately, with the 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:29.000 rise of Jitulio Vargas and his Estado Novo regime in 0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:32.360 the nineteen thirties, there was a very severe oppression of 0:39:32.400 --> 0:39:36.799 anarchist activities in Argentina. He also had anarchism taken route 0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:39.440 in the late nineteenth century, again largely due to the 0:39:39.440 --> 0:39:42.800 influence of European immigrants, and by the early twentieth century 0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:46.080 Buenos Aires had become a hub of anarchist activity, with 0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:51.440 numerous anarchist newspapers, clubs and unions. The Argentine Region of 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:56.120 Workers Federation, foundated nineteen oh one, was a leading anachosynicus 0:39:56.239 --> 0:40:01.000 organization that advocated for workers' rights and direct action. Sadly, 0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:03.280 the movement reached its peak during the first two decades 0:40:03.320 --> 0:40:07.719 of twentieth century, and fortunately, similarly to Brazil, due to 0:40:07.760 --> 0:40:11.040 the repression they endured, particularly during the infamous Tragic Weak 0:40:11.080 --> 0:40:14.480 in nineteen nineteen, where a major workers strike led to 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:17.920 violent clashes and a crackdown on anarchists and labor activists. 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:22.239 The overall movement went into a decline. Peru during this 0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:26.239 period was predominantly an agrarian society with a large and 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:32.000 economically marginalized indigenous population. It hardly resembled a nation into 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:36.160 throes of industrialization. So although there was significant capitalist growth 0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:40.840 in Peru's export sectors, chiefly mining, sugar, cotton, and wool, 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:45.279 vast areas of the country remained largely unaffected by these 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:50.040 capitalist changers. Aside from Lima and its adjacent port city, Calau, 0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:53.279 which served as the nation's administrative, commercial and financial hub, 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:58.840 sizeable Iwan economies were conspicuously absent. This lack of urban 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:02.160 centers typically assumed eight with industrial growth post a unique 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.520 challenge for the development of a robust labor movement, but 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:09.759 laborment would still arise. The working class in Lemaclaur would 0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:13.200 emerge beginnings in the eighteen nineties and early nineteen hundreds, 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:16.680 spurred by the export boom that invigorated the urban economy. 0:41:17.360 --> 0:41:21.160 Profits from the export sectors with reinvestments and new financial institutions, 0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:25.960 infrastructure projects, utility companies, and consumer goods industries by native 0:41:26.360 --> 0:41:28.960 and foreign capitalists, and this economic growth led to a 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:32.279 dramatic rise in the urban labor force in Lima. The 0:41:32.360 --> 0:41:35.840 number of manual workers grew from about nine thousand in 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:39.319 eighteen seventy six tony twenty four thousand and nineteen oh eight, 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:42.640 making up seventeen percent of Lema's estimated one hundred and 0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:47.200 forty thousand residents. In Kalau, the workforce grew at a 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:50.800 slower pace, doubling in size Streeen nineteen oh five nineteen 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:53.920 twenty to around eight thousand out of a total population 0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:57.240 of fifty two thousand. So this is not a bustling 0:41:57.320 --> 0:42:01.440 industrial heartland by any means, and peasant based society is 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:06.640 are not exactly known for their syndicalism, But despite its unlikelihood, 0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:10.399 Peru was indeed also a place of anarchist cynicalism, though 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:14.840 most notably within Lima and Callao. The nineteen tens and 0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:18.720 twenties were the Heydi of syncalism Peru, as anarchist ideas 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:22.040 and publications were circulated by a small handful of radical 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:25.960 immigrants intellectuals, alongside the labor organized and efforts of craftsmen 0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:30.080 and machine tenders who were inspired by Pruron, Bercunan, Kropotkin, 0:42:30.160 --> 0:42:34.080 and Manchester. Thanks to their efforts, anarchist cynicalism would come 0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:37.720 to dominate the still fledgland labor movement in Peru, spreading 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:41.480 its influence beyond Limacalau to the working classes along Peru's 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:47.319 northern coast and central and southern highlands. Workers in factories, crafts, transportation, 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:50.560 and rural settings all found appeal in the ideals and 0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:53.759 practice of the ideology. Of course, at the size of 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:56.520 the movement of the time, the anarchists may have dominated 0:42:56.520 --> 0:43:00.000 the movement, but the movement itself and the anarchists with 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:03.719 that had constituted a minority of Peru's urban and rural 0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:07.879 working classes. Keeps that in mind as we proceed stea 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:11.320 emerging Peruvian working class was highly diverse. He had workers 0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:15.799 of different origins, gender, race, ethnicity, age, skill level, and 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:19.200 despite these differences, they all were dealing with long working 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:22.799 hours after between twelve to sixteen hours a day in 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:27.360 poor conditions for meager wages that barely covered basic living expenses. 0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:31.360 Seeking to improve their dire working and living conditions, workers 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.480 began to turn to anarchism because the elite dominated political 0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:37.480 system in Peru was simply not taking them on. But 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:41.400 there was a handful of sympathetic dissolusion elites like Manuel 0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:45.040 Gonzalez Prada, an upper class intellectual who became an anarchist 0:43:45.080 --> 0:43:48.120 after interacting with French and Spanish anarchists during a self 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:51.640 imposed European exile between eighteen ninety one and eighteen ninety eight. 0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:56.560 Gonzales Prada founded the first anarchist publication, Los Parias in 0:43:56.680 --> 0:43:58.960 nineteen oh four, and this was soon followed by other 0:43:59.000 --> 0:44:05.239 anarchist newspapers like Lassimier and the Roja, Elambriento, Umanidad and Oprimido. 0:44:06.239 --> 0:44:10.240 Anarchist slogans like Kropotkins liberties and not bestowed, They're seized 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:14.640 were prominently featured in these newspapers, and these publications, mainly 0:44:14.640 --> 0:44:19.120 produced by radical intellectuals such as Glicerio Tassara and hil 0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:25.120 Rihi Cali, Carlos del Barzo and Ino Sincio Dombarozzi, introduced 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:28.440 workers to European anarchist ideas and perspectives on the state, 0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:33.800 the Bouchoisi, the church, property and class relations. Anarchist study 0:44:33.800 --> 0:44:37.680 circles further promoted these ideas among workers, operated by both 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:41.560 workers and radical intellectuals. Groups like the Center of Socialist 0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:44.279 Studies First of May in Lima and Love and Light 0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:48.680 in Calao, provided spaces for discussing anarchist principles, and these 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:52.719 study circles, like the anarchist press, emphasized workers, self emancipation 0:44:53.160 --> 0:44:58.200 and cultural advancement. And somehow this man manages to come 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:01.960 up in practically every single one of my explorations of 0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:07.040 anarchist history, that being the Spanish anarchist Francisco Ferrer. He 0:45:07.120 --> 0:45:09.360 was the guy who kick started the modern school movement 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:13.000 in Spain and led to the creation of anarchist schools worldwide, 0:45:13.600 --> 0:45:17.439 and he was also unjustly executed by the Spanish state. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.560 Yeah, Frere is like a guy I like to a lot. 0:45:22.160 --> 0:45:24.359 I like to If you're in Barcelona, you can visit him, 0:45:24.760 --> 0:45:28.160 along with Ascastle and de Ruti on much week. They're 0:45:28.160 --> 0:45:30.480 in the cemetery there. They have like a little little 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:31.920 area with the three of them. 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:34.279 I was wondering for a second. He said, oh, you 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:37.160 could visit him. I was like, well, really, yeah, pretty sure. 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:42.120 He's six feet under he's immortal, like they've re reanimated him. 0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:44.400 It's like zombie for their Yeah. 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:45.800 I feel like the Simpsons did an episode of that 0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:46.400 with Lenin. 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.040 Fortunately, I'm trying to think. I'm pretty sure that anarkids 0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:54.720 have we have spared the world the embalming of our leaders. 0:45:56.719 --> 0:46:01.360 Fortunately, yeah, fortunately, I mean his death. Though despite not 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:05.719 being embalmed, his death still continues to refiberate across these 0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:10.000 historical episodes across the world. Upon his death, anarchists went 0:46:10.080 --> 0:46:14.520 out in their numbers to protest his execution, and Peru 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:18.360 was no different. On October seventeenth, nineteen oh nine, the 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.840 Center of Socialist Studies First of May organized a public 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.040 protest in response to the execution of federer A by 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:27.759 the Spanish government, and these sorts of demonstrations were not 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:30.799 new to the workers in Peru at the time. In 0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:33.560 the previous year, an anarchist musical group associated with the 0:46:33.600 --> 0:46:36.479 Center held a performance to commemorate the nineteen oh seven 0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:41.640 massacre of Chilean mine workers. Furthermore, annual media celebrations in 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:44.680 honor of the Chicago Martyrs were also supported by these 0:46:44.680 --> 0:46:48.600 study circles and the anarchist press. The first media celebration 0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:51.960 in Lima, organized primarily by the Federation of Baker Workers 0:46:52.000 --> 0:46:55.640 Staff Peru, took lace in nineteen oh five, highlight an 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:58.960 international working class solidarity and the struggle for the eight 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:03.520 hour workday, while honoring Peru's first worker martyr, and to 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:07.480 the dedication of anarchist leaders, publications, and study circles, the 0:47:07.520 --> 0:47:10.920 early years of Peruvian anarchism and labor organization laid the 0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:14.799 groundwork for a movement committed to justice and dignity for 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:19.240 all workers. We can say that by nineteen eleven anarchist 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:24.960 cynicalism had truly firmly taken route. Why because this was 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:27.480 the year of the first general strike in Peru by 0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:32.080 the urban working class, spearheaded by anarcho synicalists. In March 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:36.000 nineteen eleven, five hundred workers at the US owned Vitarite 0:47:36.160 --> 0:47:40.880 cotton mill initiated a strike demanding higher wages, a reduction 0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:43.400 of the work day from thirteen to ten hours, and 0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:45.880 the elimination of the night shift. And I found these 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:51.600 demands very interesting because I'm imagining even now people back 0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:56.040 then saying, you know, how lazy can you be? You 0:47:56.080 --> 0:48:00.799 know you only want to work ten hours? Like, come on, 0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:03.040 some of us, some of us are putting in sixteen, seventeen, 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.520 eighteen hours, pick up, pick up the slack. 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:12.000 Yeah. And it's always like these early anarchist demands, you 0:48:12.120 --> 0:48:16.239 just realize the unfathomable misery of being like part of 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:18.839 the industrial working class in the late nineteenth and early 0:48:18.880 --> 0:48:19.760 twentieth century. 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:23.279 Yes, like can you can you ease the boot off 0:48:23.280 --> 0:48:26.799 my neck for like two seconds a day? You know? 0:48:27.520 --> 0:48:30.560 Yeah? Yeah, it's people fighting and dying right to work, 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:33.279 like the amount of hours that most of us are 0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:36.239 awake in a day, and they would work that much 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:38.760 without taking care of any of their family or personal 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:39.960 or other. 0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:42.799 Needs, like can I please see my family for more 0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:44.160 than an already? 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:44.560 Yeah? 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:47.520 Absolutely not no uth, And then the Pinkerton's come out 0:48:47.560 --> 0:48:52.200 and yes, exactly, like, yeah, people are asking for sixteen 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:54.279 hour day and their response is is to send out 0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:55.680 someone to murder them. 0:48:55.880 --> 0:49:00.680 Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah, but I am impressed by the tenacity, 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:04.640 you know, yeah, absolutely, even with the what I would 0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:09.160 consider to be rather self demands, I mean, a ten 0:49:09.200 --> 0:49:12.640 hour worth, the higher wages, and the eliminition of the 0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:14.839 night shift. I mean those are things that some people 0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:18.160 take for granted today, right, Yeah, but that's something they 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:21.680 had to fight for and their strike lasted twenty nine days. 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:25.080 Oh wow, that's very impressive. Yeah. This has reminded me 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:27.320 of like I'm working on a book right now and 0:49:27.320 --> 0:49:29.839 I've been reading this biography of Duluti for a while 0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:33.360 that Able pass wrote and it passes book when de 0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:35.600 Ruti goes into exile for a Way too and turn 0:49:35.640 --> 0:49:39.680 travels across South America, and these these anarchist schools are 0:49:39.680 --> 0:49:44.080 being set up along the modern system as envisaged by 0:49:44.080 --> 0:49:46.719 IF and I just fl air. And they don't have 0:49:46.760 --> 0:49:49.759 any funding, right because everyone's so dirt poor that like 0:49:50.440 --> 0:49:54.200 that there isn't much surplus to contribute to their children's education. 0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:57.000 And they have once they've taken care of their subsistence needs. 0:49:57.480 --> 0:50:01.200 And there's this line in the book which for whatever reason, 0:50:01.320 --> 0:50:03.359 it's just like a line I aspire to write something 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:06.040 that's beautiful. It's the Ruty was very fond of children, 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:08.839 and so he risked his life robbing banks to fund 0:50:08.880 --> 0:50:12.240 their education, which is like, I just love the pivot 0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:16.000 from like he liked kids and therefore he conducted arm 0:50:16.040 --> 0:50:17.480 bank robbery throughout the world. 0:50:19.200 --> 0:50:21.480 Yeah, yes, it's like you know, put the money in 0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:24.360 the bag and maybe some textbooks while yeah at. 0:50:24.200 --> 0:50:28.920 Ith Yeah, and like he at this time, like the 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:32.319 anarchists were so pure at this time, and like in 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:36.359 their sort of aspirations and in their actions in many 0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:39.560 ways in other ways, not of course that they could 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:41.600 not rid themselves to some of their gender assumptions. But 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:45.719 they would make an accounting of everything they stole, which 0:50:45.760 --> 0:50:47.960 is really not like if if you're involved in crimes 0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:55.280 and you're listening, it's not a good idea yea, yeah. 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:57.239 But he would do it to to like prove sure 0:50:57.239 --> 0:50:59.840 everyone that he wasn't stealing for his own personal benefit. 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:01.880 They'd be like, we get this to this school and 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:03.920 we bought some textbooks and like that. You know, they 0:51:03.920 --> 0:51:06.479 needed school lunches, so we got some sacks of rice 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:09.120 and bananas, and like, as you can see, the entire 0:51:09.160 --> 0:51:11.960 money from this bank heightst has been redistributed, and we're 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:13.279 off to another country to do the same. 0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:17.399 Now I'm just imagined and this guy like, you're keeping 0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:19.800 all these records because the anarchist auditor is going to 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:20.839 come and you know check all. 0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:24.960 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I'm not sure who would like 0:51:25.280 --> 0:51:27.879 doubt the commitment of the man traveling around the world 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:30.520 robbing the banks. But apparently they felt that like no 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:34.560 one should be above approach, which is admirable. Yeah, yeah, 0:51:34.640 --> 0:51:38.920 you know what's not admirable, Andrew ads, Yeah, it's our 0:51:38.960 --> 0:51:41.920 obligation to include products and services in these podcasts, but 0:51:41.960 --> 0:51:54.960 we have to. So here we go. Okay, we're back, 0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:56.719 and yeah, you're telling me about their their twenty nine 0:51:56.800 --> 0:51:59.439 day general strike or the strike rather than a general strike. 0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:03.239 Yeah, strike, but you're close, because the strike started in 0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:06.640 March as a regular strike, it lasted twenty nine days 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:10.400 and then eventually escalated into a general strike on April tenth, 0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:14.080 bring in Lima's business and transport to a complete halt. 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:19.000 And so the following day, President Leguya intervened and forced 0:52:19.000 --> 0:52:21.400 the mills management to meet the workers' demands. 0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:23.600 That's a win. 0:52:24.040 --> 0:52:27.480 It is away of a ten hour workday, but a way. 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:30.799 Nonetheless, Yeah, I guess it's approved that you can force 0:52:30.840 --> 0:52:33.200 them to change and then you can you can continue 0:52:33.200 --> 0:52:33.600 from there. 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:38.840 Yeah, And so to save safeguard their heart won victories, 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:43.279 textile workers in Vitarite established the Textile Workers Unification of 0:52:43.320 --> 0:52:47.279 Ittarity in May nineteen eleven, dedicated to defending the rights 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:51.680 of all workers. Inspired with Vitarte's example, workers at other 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:54.879 major mills and Lima began forming their own resistance societies 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.719 dedicated to serving and defending the right of the proletariat 0:52:57.760 --> 0:53:01.240 In general and the textile workers in particular. The movement 0:53:01.239 --> 0:53:04.680 continued to gain momentum in nineteen twelve nineteen thirteen. In 0:53:04.719 --> 0:53:08.520 October nineteen twelve, the La Protest group succeeded in forming 0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:11.959 the first Workers Regional Federation of Peru, united various worker 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:17.960 resistance societies modeled after Argentina's Workers Regional Federation. The FORP, 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:21.759 as it was also called, advocated for both immediate improvements 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:27.560 and long term social revolution, even to unite workers across Peru. Unfortunately, 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:29.919 as is the case with many workers struggles in this time, 0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:33.879 economic instability and state hostelity during World War One led 0:53:33.880 --> 0:53:38.400 to the disillusion of the FRP in nineteen sixteen. Thankfully, 0:53:38.560 --> 0:53:42.240 this setback was temporary. Between nineteen sixteen and nineteen nineteen, 0:53:42.480 --> 0:53:46.799 Anacosynicolus redouble their efforts, focusing on organizing both urban and 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:51.040 rural workers. Following the death of Manuel Gonzalez Prada nineteen nineteen, 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:55.600 worker run union presses emerged, spreading anarchosynicalist ideas and replace 0:53:55.640 --> 0:53:59.799 in earlier anarchist publications. This renewed activity strengthened the labor 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:04.040 move lead entity establishment of new labor federations and the 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:08.239 revival of the FORP, and with the deteriorating conditions during 0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:11.719 the war years and real wages fallen sharply, they had 0:54:11.760 --> 0:54:14.600 to be a wave of strikes in nineteen eighteen. The 0:54:14.640 --> 0:54:18.120 most significant strike occurred in December nineteen eighteen b nearly 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:22.080 twenty nine hundred textile workers demanded an eight hour workday, 0:54:22.680 --> 0:54:24.799 finally making some progress. 0:54:24.880 --> 0:54:26.680 Yeah, yeah, we'll get in there. 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:29.000 What I find so interesting about the demand of an 0:54:29.000 --> 0:54:31.600 eight hour workday is if we look at their first 0:54:31.640 --> 0:54:35.480 demand nineteen eleven, they fought to reduce their workday from 0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:39.920 thirteen hours to ten hours, right, and then a mayor 0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:44.759 seven years later, nineteen eleven to nineteen eighteen, I mean 0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:45.760 seven years. 0:54:45.560 --> 0:54:49.040 Later, Yeah, they got them down to eight They go from. 0:54:48.880 --> 0:54:52.040 Ten hours to eight hours. And by the way, by 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:55.399 January nineteen nineteen, they organized a general strike. They moved 0:54:55.440 --> 0:54:57.280 on to a general strike. The led to street clashes 0:54:57.320 --> 0:55:00.320 and business shutdowns, and despite the arrests and the torture 0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:04.000 strike leaders, the strike continued until President part of they 0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:07.239 were conceded to eat hour weekday. So in seven years 0:55:07.239 --> 0:55:09.120 they went from ten hours to eat hours. 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:10.360 Yeah, and then we've. 0:55:10.239 --> 0:55:15.600 All collectively as a global society been stuck on eight 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:19.520 hours for the past century, over our century at this point, 0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:22.680 I mean it's twenty four this was nineteen nineteen. 0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:25.000 Yeah, wow, putting it that way, that is bleak. 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.000 We should we should be down'd on hour this point. 0:55:27.560 --> 0:55:30.480 Yeah, yeah, we give it extrapolate, right, we take two 0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:33.400 points and draw the line. That's what happens when like 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.960 they see the success of the people in the streets, trained, 0:55:36.960 --> 0:55:38.480 and they know they have of power and they can 0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:39.080 keep going. 0:55:39.440 --> 0:55:39.680 Yeah. 0:55:39.840 --> 0:55:42.440 Yeah, because they wouldn't have felt so bull as to 0:55:42.520 --> 0:55:45.040 demand the eight hours if they didn't fight and win 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:48.400 that ten hours at first, just a couple of years before. 0:55:48.719 --> 0:55:51.840 Yeah, Like, it's why we have made a versus International 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:54.919 Workers Day, right, Like, because like the number of rights 0:55:55.000 --> 0:55:57.640 we enjoy visa v our employers and the state were 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:00.600 all fought for and one by people who sometimes died 0:56:01.160 --> 0:56:05.080 in the process, and like, yeah, we ought to remember that. 0:56:05.120 --> 0:56:09.319 I think like sometimes now organizing forgets how hard fought 0:56:09.360 --> 0:56:13.000 those were. But also like they won. Yeah, we have 0:56:13.160 --> 0:56:16.399 not had many dubs in the in the intervening period. 0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:18.760 Of course, the state has like the state has grown 0:56:19.440 --> 0:56:20.680 exponentially stronger. 0:56:20.800 --> 0:56:23.360 Yeah, yeah, I mean the situation has changed. We have 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:26.319 to acknowledge that. Yeah, but it's just it's it is 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:29.439 very fascinating, you know, the way that you know, these 0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:34.600 small winds was able to embolden bigger winds, yeah later 0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:38.040 down the line, and that keeping that momentum really is vital. 0:56:39.280 --> 0:56:42.200 Yeah, definitely, it still works that way when I, like, 0:56:42.600 --> 0:56:43.920 you know, in the last couple of years, I've been 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:47.080 to Java and to mian Maar, like, they have done 0:56:47.120 --> 0:56:50.439 things that would have seemed inconceivable to them ten years 0:56:50.480 --> 0:56:53.759 before they did them. And in both cases it's by 0:56:53.800 --> 0:56:56.360 staying in the streets, right or staying in the jungles 0:56:56.400 --> 0:56:58.759 or the mountains or wherever you're fighting them, and then 0:56:59.120 --> 0:57:02.560 refusing to like accept that the state can tell you 0:57:02.600 --> 0:57:05.359 what to do, even when the state tries to bring 0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:09.399 its coercive violence against you. And like that's how all 0:57:09.440 --> 0:57:13.600 of these these winds occur. But it doesn't happen without organization, 0:57:13.760 --> 0:57:16.280 without community, without like all the things that they had 0:57:16.280 --> 0:57:19.960 built in Peru, right like before they did their first strike, 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:22.440 they had to have confidence that their strike woul succeed, 0:57:22.480 --> 0:57:25.160 and presumably a strike fund and a means to collectively 0:57:25.200 --> 0:57:28.000 support the people who weren't getting paid and they have 0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:30.160 to build all that and then like these things can 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:32.360 kind of cascade once the once the movement has a 0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:33.000 strong base. 0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:36.840 Exactly. There's the reason that I'm going through these histories. 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:38.480 You know, these are the sort of lessons I want 0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:39.560 people be able to glean. 0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:42.800 Yeah, totally. I think it can be frustrating otherwise, like 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:45.840 it can be frustrating to be people. I'm not saying 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:47.840 people right now aren't trying, because people do a lot 0:57:47.960 --> 0:57:50.959 and they're working hard. But it can be frustrating until 0:57:51.000 --> 0:57:53.560 you see that it takes years of building that base, 0:57:53.800 --> 0:57:56.520 and then things can things can seem to come quickly, 0:57:56.560 --> 0:57:59.959 but it does years of work sort of behind the scene. 0:58:00.200 --> 0:58:01.080 That has happened first. 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:06.440 Absolutely so. In the months following the general strike, workers 0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:10.680 continue to protest the rising costs of living. Organizers like 0:58:10.680 --> 0:58:15.400 Alberto Funken Nicolas Gutara formed the Committee for the Cheapening 0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:20.320 of Prime Necessities, mobilizing thousand. I think we definitely need 0:58:20.360 --> 0:58:22.760 a Committee for the Cheapening of Prime Necessities today. 0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:26.240 That's an amazing group. Like I was just what a 0:58:26.280 --> 0:58:27.200 great thing. 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:31.960 Yeah, fantastic name. When the demands were ignored, you know, 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:35.200 here we go again. A general strike was declared in 0:58:35.280 --> 0:58:38.840 May nineteen nineteen, resulted in violent clashes with the state 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:42.200 and the arrests of Kutara and another figure, Carlos Barber. 0:58:43.080 --> 0:58:47.640 Upon their release, resolve unshaken, Gutara and Barbara defiantly addressed 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:50.960 President Laguya, stating in part that the populace of today 0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:54.200 was not the team one of yesterday, which had silently 0:58:54.280 --> 0:58:57.160 borne all attorneys. Sounds like a threat. 0:58:58.680 --> 0:58:59.880 Yeah. 0:59:00.160 --> 0:59:03.720 Two days later, FORP was reactivated with a mission to 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:07.000 dismantle capitalism and create a society based on mutual aid 0:59:07.000 --> 0:59:11.160 and equality. The aerocosilicust movement had dissolved any linkering passivity 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:15.680 among Lemaclau's workers. The passion, hunger, and aggression towards state 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:18.960 and employer threats had reached a crescendo by this point. 0:59:19.960 --> 0:59:23.600 For example, in September nineteen twenty one, textile workers seized 0:59:23.600 --> 0:59:26.720 el InCor mill in response to management's plans to close 0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:30.440 the factory. Although they were eventually dislodged by troops, their 0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:35.040 active resistance demonstrated their determination and boldness. It isn't that 0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:38.280 fascinating that these workers were willing to seize the mill 0:59:38.360 --> 0:59:40.720 they had worked at because the mansion plan and closing 0:59:40.760 --> 0:59:43.040 it down. They were willing to take control of ath 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:47.120 place and work at it and you know, couldn't contribute 0:59:47.160 --> 0:59:50.280 to the economy. But the troops were mobilized to ensure 0:59:50.320 --> 0:59:54.680 that they did not exercise autonomy as workers to self 0:59:54.760 --> 0:59:59.640 organize their own labor. It's either under management or out 0:59:59.640 --> 1:00:03.600 of a or there's no working for yourself or working 1:00:03.640 --> 1:00:08.480 as a collective. Also, in nineteen twenty one, the FORP 1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:13.240 was replaced by the Local Workers Federation or FOL, which 1:00:13.360 --> 1:00:19.600 lashed out against the government's legal rules against strikes. So 1:00:20.440 --> 1:00:25.040 in nineteen twenty President Leaguiya put forward a new constitution 1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:29.880 with very strict provisions to regulate this wave of strikes 1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:35.280 and to put the labor conflicts under arbitration by the state. 1:00:35.840 --> 1:00:38.920 And so the Local Workers Federation the FOL, which had 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:42.600 replaced the FORP in nineteen twenty one, lashed out at 1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:46.480 this government's legal ruse and vowed to completely ignore it. 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:51.600 At the time, as well, alongside the labor struggles, Anaqua 1:00:51.640 --> 1:00:55.800 Syncalists were struggling to transform culture. Contrary to the idea 1:00:55.880 --> 1:00:58.720 that the f WEL neglected cultural issues, evident shows they 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:02.960 actively developed as work in class culture. Their strategy was 1:01:03.000 --> 1:01:06.080 a war of position against rule elites, even to create 1:01:06.120 --> 1:01:09.720 a counterculture that challenged the dominant bourgeois values. At the 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:13.400 nineteen twenty one FOL Congress, workers affirmed the importance of 1:01:13.400 --> 1:01:17.240 both economic improvements and cultural uplift, which led to the 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:21.240 establishment of initiatives like a worker's daily newspaper, a popular library, 1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:25.840 and various cultural associations. One key example was the central 1:01:25.920 --> 1:01:29.360 musical Obrero de Lima, founded in nineteen twenty two, which 1:01:29.440 --> 1:01:33.000 used music to promote workers' rights and solilarity. Workers also 1:01:33.040 --> 1:01:35.880 participated in social events like the Fiesta de la plant 1:01:36.360 --> 1:01:39.760 a secular festival designed to compete with Christian holidays and 1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:44.400 promote class unity. They also held Madia celebrations and organized 1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:48.960 tributes for foreign comrades. Moreover, the FOL supported the creation 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:52.600 of popular universities to educate workers and foster cultural and 1:01:52.640 --> 1:01:56.680 political awareness. Meanwhile, also in the late nineteen tens and 1:01:56.760 --> 1:02:00.000 nineteen twenties, the southern highlands of Peru saw the emerging 1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:04.560 of a dynamic network of anarchostynicalist movements. The network thrived 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:08.840 amid the burgeoning will export economy. The will trade's expansion 1:02:08.920 --> 1:02:13.560 spurred economic links and infrastructural development, which turned Arakeeper into 1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:16.920 a key economic center and the hub of the anarchisyndicalist 1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:21.240 network in the region. Aracosynicalism and Araqkeeper was influenced by 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:25.440 four major factors. A radical liberal press, the labor movement 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:29.520 and Lima, immigrant anarchists and cross border connections with Chilean 1:02:29.560 --> 1:02:36.600 anachosynicalists influenced by thinkers like Manuel Gonzales Prado, intellectuals, artisans, critique, Arakeepers, 1:02:36.640 --> 1:02:41.680 conservative society through radical publications such as Lariete and Bandera Roja. 1:02:42.320 --> 1:02:46.040 These radical ideas burned significant actions like Atraqueper's first major 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:49.120 strikes in nineteen oh two, the inaugural media celebration in 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:52.880 nineteen oh six, and the establishment of pivotal organizations such 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:55.440 as the Worker's Social Center of Araqkeeper and the Worker 1:02:55.480 --> 1:02:59.280 Coalition of the Neighborhoods. The labor movement in Lima, along 1:02:59.320 --> 1:03:04.240 with influenzers Argentina and Chile, further inspired Attkeepers workers. By 1:03:04.280 --> 1:03:07.840 December nineteen eighteen, motivated by reports of workers struggles abroad, 1:03:08.320 --> 1:03:11.920 Artisans and Workers and Arakeeper, founder of Society of Workers 1:03:11.920 --> 1:03:16.320 and Mutual Assistants, the SOSM. In July nineteen nineteen, following 1:03:16.360 --> 1:03:20.640 Lema's example, at Keeper's main labor organizations established a committee 1:03:20.760 --> 1:03:23.960 to combat the rising cost of living. When the demands 1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:27.360 were ignored, they too launched a general strike, which lasted 1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:31.320 eight days and received widespread support. While some wage and 1:03:31.360 --> 1:03:35.200 benefit demands were met, many of the committee's requests remained unaddressed. 1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:39.000 So after the general strike, Atkeeper's workers founded the Arakeeper 1:03:39.040 --> 1:03:42.400 Worker Federation to advocate for their rights and demands. Further, 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:46.240 that federation was one of numerous unions and federations, either 1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:49.439 being the Local Worker Federation of Arakeeper or Fuller, which 1:03:49.480 --> 1:03:52.760 emerged between nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty six in response 1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:55.520 to calls from the fr Repeats enhanced the worker's capacity 1:03:55.520 --> 1:03:59.640 for direct action against capitalists and state depression. Like their 1:03:59.680 --> 1:04:03.520 count parts in Lima, at A Keepers, anarchistynicalists employed direct 1:04:03.560 --> 1:04:07.120 action to achieve both immediate and long term goals. The 1:04:07.240 --> 1:04:09.960 protests against a railway tariff hike in nineteen twenty three 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:13.920 pressure the government enough to suspend the increase, but nineteen 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:16.840 twenty five was perhaps their most pivotal year because the 1:04:16.880 --> 1:04:19.640 Popular Workers Assembly, which is an ad hoc coalition of 1:04:19.640 --> 1:04:22.480 anarchistnicalist groups to at a Keeper and Lima called for 1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:25.880 a general strike against the Road Conscription Law, which required 1:04:25.880 --> 1:04:28.840 adult males to register and to work on unpaid state 1:04:28.840 --> 1:04:32.880 infrastructure projects for upward of twelve days per year. For 1:04:32.920 --> 1:04:35.600 the Assembly, this was more than just an unfailed law. 1:04:35.960 --> 1:04:38.800 This was a symbol of the state's utter disregard for 1:04:38.840 --> 1:04:42.439 the working class. As a strike unfolded, the authorities sought 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:45.680 to crush the movement, arrest in labor leaders and attempting 1:04:45.720 --> 1:04:49.600 to dismantle the anarchist organization's influence. But even with only 1:04:49.600 --> 1:04:53.400 a small industrial sector and a relatively small population, at 1:04:53.440 --> 1:04:56.640 a Keeper's labor movement demonstrated a remarkable level of class 1:04:56.680 --> 1:05:01.480 consciousness and solidarity beyond strike to use a variety of 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:05.120 methods to build solidarity and consciousness among workers, from worker 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:09.520 libraries to football clubs. One key figure in this movement 1:05:09.640 --> 1:05:14.280 was Ramon Rossignole, a Spanish architect and passionate anarcho syndic list. 1:05:15.040 --> 1:05:18.800 Arriving an araqueper in nineteen nineteen, Russignole turned his office 1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:22.800 into a hub of anarchist thought at activism. His influence 1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:26.360 was profound as he trained future leaders like Jacinto Leendo 1:05:26.600 --> 1:05:29.880 and Francisco Ramos, who would become central figures in the 1:05:29.920 --> 1:05:35.959 labor movement. Roussignol's efforts extended beyond traditional activism. He also 1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:39.120 founded a popular university in the footsteps of Francisco Ferrer, 1:05:39.520 --> 1:05:41.320 and it stuve as a place for workers to receive 1:05:41.480 --> 1:05:46.160 education and become politically conscious. Endo, a key port city 1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:48.720 in Peru, the influence of the International Workers of the 1:05:48.760 --> 1:05:53.160 World was particularly strong. Louis Armando Trivigno, a key Chilean 1:05:53.280 --> 1:05:57.200 IWW leader, published a series of influential articles in a 1:05:57.200 --> 1:06:01.440 newspaper called Labor Testa in nineteen twenty two. He extolled 1:06:01.440 --> 1:06:05.840 the virtues the IWW's methods and called for international solidarity 1:06:05.960 --> 1:06:09.880 among workers. He was best received right in Moyendo, where 1:06:09.880 --> 1:06:13.400 by early nineteen twenty five, maritime workers from Chile had 1:06:13.480 --> 1:06:17.000 established close and secretive tie to the local Peruvian workers. 1:06:17.720 --> 1:06:20.760 Under the cover of darkness, they held clandestine meetings and 1:06:20.800 --> 1:06:24.200 an old house at Ailey Street. These meetings would lead 1:06:24.240 --> 1:06:27.920 to the formation of a local IWW branch right in Moyendo. 1:06:29.200 --> 1:06:31.360 But it wasn't just a meeting of the minds, but 1:06:31.440 --> 1:06:33.680 of the shared struggles and victories of the workers that 1:06:33.760 --> 1:06:38.040 sevented these ties. In February nineteen twenty five, a popular 1:06:38.120 --> 1:06:41.880 general strike in Moyendo saw workers fighting back against unjust 1:06:41.920 --> 1:06:46.480 practices by British owned companies. The strike was a massive success, 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:50.320 and the solidarity from Chile and IWW members bolstered the 1:06:50.360 --> 1:06:54.600 Approvian workers' resolve. The government's response the anarchist synicalist movement 1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:57.880 was severe there on the spread of what they saw 1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:02.200 as Bolshevik ideas. They cracked down hard on the Moyendo 1:07:02.280 --> 1:07:06.200 labor movement. Security forces were deployed to suppressed protests and 1:07:06.320 --> 1:07:10.720 activists were arrested or reported to Chile. Of course, government 1:07:10.720 --> 1:07:14.560 repression efforts were not fully successful due to resilience of loose, 1:07:14.960 --> 1:07:19.400 flexible and decentralized organizing the seeds of anarchistniclists thought had 1:07:19.400 --> 1:07:23.200 already taken route. Throughout nineteen twenty six and beyond, the 1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:25.480 labor movement and Moyendo continued to be a site of 1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:29.840 struggle and resistance. Workers engage in protests and work stoppages, 1:07:30.080 --> 1:07:32.040 driven a by the ideas of direct action and social 1:07:32.200 --> 1:07:35.360 justice that have been nurtured through the interaction with Chilean Wobblies. 1:07:35.880 --> 1:07:38.600 Do you know what was almost certainly not nurtured through 1:07:38.640 --> 1:07:53.400 interactions with Chilean wobblies Andrew ads Yeah, and we are 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:54.920 back from the outbreak. 1:07:55.400 --> 1:07:58.880 Beyond the cities. Anarchistinicalism had a profound impact on the 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:04.240 rural indigenous communities in Cusco and Puno. Internal migration and 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:06.680 the exchange of ideals led to the rise of a 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:12.120 new political consciousness among the peasantry. Carlos Condorina, an indigenous 1:08:12.120 --> 1:08:15.440 peasant from Puno, became a key figure in the Tejuante 1:08:15.440 --> 1:08:19.479 Suyo pro Indian Rights Central Committee the sept where he 1:08:19.560 --> 1:08:22.720 championed indigenous labor rights and the struggle for better work 1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:26.720 and conditions. His work, along with that of other provincial 1:08:26.760 --> 1:08:30.320 migrants like Esequiel or Viola, bridged the gap between the 1:08:30.400 --> 1:08:35.720 urban anarchosynicalists and the rural indigenous communities. Reviola was a 1:08:35.760 --> 1:08:40.240 passionate advocate for both indigenous rights and the broader anarchosynicalist course, 1:08:40.720 --> 1:08:43.400 pushing back against the paternalism of the state toward indigenous 1:08:43.439 --> 1:08:46.759 community and connecting the struggles of workers and peasants alike. 1:08:47.240 --> 1:08:51.280 He spoke out against bourgeois pigs Yankee imperialism, all while 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:56.599 encouraging pride in one's indigeneity. Alongside Reviola, Salazar and Ayulo 1:08:56.680 --> 1:08:58.880 would also guide the SEPT and the Provian region of 1:08:58.960 --> 1:09:04.840 Indian Workers Federation toward anarchist syndicuist ideology, organization, and tactics. 1:09:06.400 --> 1:09:09.160 Even after his untimely death in nineteen twenty five, with 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:14.639 Viewler's legacy continued to inspire anarchists and indigenous movements. Indigenous 1:09:14.720 --> 1:09:18.120 leaders and activists have been grown fed up with the 1:09:18.160 --> 1:09:21.720 abuse of practices of local authorities and the gaminalists, the 1:09:21.800 --> 1:09:26.639 rural bosses who exploited the peasants. Pedro Jose Rada Igama, 1:09:26.960 --> 1:09:29.639 the Minister of Government and Police at the time, blamed 1:09:29.640 --> 1:09:34.160 these uprisings on known agitators. He claimed that these agitators 1:09:34.160 --> 1:09:37.040 were convincing the indigenous people that they rode conscription law 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:41.000 and other municipal laws were designed to oppress them, even 1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:44.240 though the indigenous people could see for themselves the effects 1:09:44.280 --> 1:09:47.840 of the law. Both the anarchists and the indigenous organizers 1:09:47.880 --> 1:09:50.000 had laid the crown work, but it was the people 1:09:50.040 --> 1:09:54.640 themselves who chose not to accept such state impositions. Uprisings 1:09:54.680 --> 1:09:58.720 broke out across Cutsco and Puno District authorities had to 1:09:58.720 --> 1:10:03.040 suspend the conscription several provinces due to the intense resistance. 1:10:04.160 --> 1:10:08.000 The sheer force of the crackdown was so extreme that 1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:11.599 the city mayor and the municipal council had to appeal 1:10:11.640 --> 1:10:14.880 to President Leaguya for the suspension of the law, and 1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:19.040 they succeeded at least temporarily until July nineteen twenty six, 1:10:19.640 --> 1:10:22.280 and as soon as the law was reinstated, the Popular 1:10:22.280 --> 1:10:26.519 Assembly reignited the resistance, leaving went as first issuing direct 1:10:26.600 --> 1:10:29.479 threats to the officials enforcing the law, noting that they 1:10:29.560 --> 1:10:33.080 had the home addresses of the Conscription Council and was 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:37.320 not responsible for any potential consequences of their actions. 1:10:38.160 --> 1:10:39.520 That's definitely a threat. 1:10:39.800 --> 1:10:40.640 That's definitely out there. 1:10:40.760 --> 1:10:40.960 Yeah. 1:10:41.960 --> 1:10:44.840 They also sent delegates to Lima to organize a nationwide 1:10:44.880 --> 1:10:48.160 campaign against the law, which led to their arrest and 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:52.439 sparked even more protests in Atkeeper and Lima throughout late 1:10:52.520 --> 1:10:57.080 nineteen twenties. Despite increasing state repression, the anarchists Sanrachist Nicholas 1:10:57.080 --> 1:10:59.920 did not let up for as long as they could, 1:11:01.520 --> 1:11:05.320 so over the first three decades of the nineteen hundreds, 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:09.520 anarchist syndicalism in Peru spread thanks to a mix of factors, 1:11:10.200 --> 1:11:14.120 the distribution of radical ideas through publications, the influence of 1:11:14.160 --> 1:11:18.200 activists from other countries, and most importantly, the work of 1:11:18.240 --> 1:11:23.960 local organizers, most prominently in Lima Kalau. Despite facing immense 1:11:24.040 --> 1:11:26.560 challenges and a significant decline by the end of the 1:11:26.640 --> 1:11:31.440 nineteen twenties, the movement laid the groundwork for future labor politics. 1:11:32.520 --> 1:11:35.960 Former Arachas cynicalists joined new political parties and an effort 1:11:36.040 --> 1:11:40.439 to carry forward their ideals, compromising a long way, so 1:11:40.479 --> 1:11:46.639 the influence didn't fully disappear, but it did transform. Still, 1:11:46.680 --> 1:11:50.800 their spirit lived on somewhat in the ongoing fight for 1:11:51.040 --> 1:11:55.040 justice and equality in Peru, one that continues. 1:11:54.840 --> 1:12:07.400 To this day. 1:12:10.200 --> 1:12:15.599 Hello podcast fans, Me James and my friend Scherene, and 1:12:15.640 --> 1:12:17.160 also Cherene's cat Bunny. 1:12:17.360 --> 1:12:20.599 Yes, yeah, she is here. She is here and ready 1:12:20.640 --> 1:12:21.040 to pod. 1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:24.679 Yeah. She loves to cast a pod and so do we. Today, Cherene, 1:12:24.840 --> 1:12:28.040 we have the great pleasure of talking about the border again, 1:12:28.479 --> 1:12:30.920 which is something I talk about a lot, something that 1:12:31.560 --> 1:12:34.320 politicians also talk about a lot. Today, what I want 1:12:34.320 --> 1:12:36.600 to talk about is the difference between Kamala Harris and 1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:40.600 Donald Trump when it comes to the border, Because shockingly, 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:44.040 there's been a lot of crap reporting on her border stance. 1:12:44.400 --> 1:12:47.000 There has been some good reporting, and like, there's always 1:12:47.040 --> 1:12:49.360 going to be right wing disinformation anytime you talk about 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:53.040 the border. Right, just today, Border Patrol released video of 1:12:53.120 --> 1:12:55.880 a woman falling to her death from the border wall. 1:12:56.160 --> 1:12:59.840 Border Patrol agents stood there for twenty four minutes watching 1:12:59.880 --> 1:13:04.479 her struggle. There was a ladder, and they decided to 1:13:04.600 --> 1:13:07.160 watch her struggle until she died as she fell, and 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:11.920 then she died well watching this like objectively tragic thing, right, 1:13:12.000 --> 1:13:14.560 Like when we think about how we get to fascism, 1:13:14.960 --> 1:13:17.400 we get to fascism when my taxes pay people to 1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:20.240 stand there and watch a woman die rather than do 1:13:20.360 --> 1:13:23.479 a single thing to help her. And then a bunch 1:13:23.520 --> 1:13:26.800 of fuck wits on the internet immediately start excusing this 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:29.840 like it's it's so predictable that it was going to happen, 1:13:29.880 --> 1:13:34.920 and I'm just once again disgusted by the whole fucking apparatus. 1:13:35.000 --> 1:13:38.000 It's the border, I guess. So I want to talk 1:13:38.040 --> 1:13:40.120 about the things that have changed, right, and I want 1:13:40.160 --> 1:13:42.479 to talk we'll sort of start Boy outlining who Kamale 1:13:42.560 --> 1:13:45.479 is with respect to the aborder. So everything she took 1:13:45.520 --> 1:13:49.400 over from Biden, Kamala has been sort of offering more 1:13:49.439 --> 1:13:52.639 platitudes than specifics, right like her campaign is mostly based 1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:55.040 on vibes. Like I went to her campaign website to 1:13:55.080 --> 1:13:56.880 see what her stances were on the border. It is 1:13:56.920 --> 1:14:01.160 not mentioned. I think that's notable. But recently, in some 1:14:01.160 --> 1:14:03.559 speeches she did offer some concrete ideas of what her 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:06.599 border policy might look like. So I'm going to start 1:14:06.680 --> 1:14:10.479 with her campaign ad. This ad incidentally opens with what 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:14.240 I'm pretty sure is a drone shot from Campo, California. 1:14:14.439 --> 1:14:19.799 I've taken pictures in reverse of that shot hundreds of times. 1:14:20.320 --> 1:14:22.360 You can find them on my website. Slate bought some 1:14:22.400 --> 1:14:25.800 of them off me. Maybe a month or two ago, No, 1:14:26.040 --> 1:14:27.880 not even like, maybe maybe two or three weeks ago, 1:14:27.920 --> 1:14:29.880 I guess. I watched a mother breastfeed her five month 1:14:29.880 --> 1:14:32.320 old child, maybe a couple of miles from there. It 1:14:32.360 --> 1:14:35.720 was one hundred and five degrees. We were able to 1:14:35.720 --> 1:14:39.920 give them water. I saw someone in severe hypothermia right 1:14:40.240 --> 1:14:43.800 very hot. We were able to call them off. I 1:14:43.840 --> 1:14:47.040 spoke to a Sudanese family who were really struggling with 1:14:47.080 --> 1:14:48.840 making this long walk. They have to make out there. 1:14:48.960 --> 1:14:53.280 None of that shit made it into the Karmela border advert, right, 1:14:53.560 --> 1:14:55.880 of course not. So I'm just going to play this 1:14:56.040 --> 1:14:59.679 advert for you, Shuen on the border. The choice is simple. 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:04.240 Kamala Harris supports increasing the number of border patrol agents. 1:15:04.640 --> 1:15:07.479 Donald Trump blocked a bill to increase the number of 1:15:07.520 --> 1:15:12.240 border patrol agents. Kamala Harris supports investing in new technology 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:16.120 to block fentanyl from entering the country. Donald Trump blocked 1:15:16.160 --> 1:15:19.200 funding for technology to block fentanyl from entering the country. 1:15:19.400 --> 1:15:23.480 Kamala Harris supports spending more money to stop human traffickers. 1:15:23.800 --> 1:15:28.080 Donald Trump blocked money to stop human traffickers. Kamala Harris 1:15:28.120 --> 1:15:32.160 prosecuted trans national gang members and got them sentenced to prison. 1:15:32.439 --> 1:15:36.080 Trump is trying to avoid being sentenced to prison. There's 1:15:36.160 --> 1:15:38.960 two choices in this election, the one who will fix 1:15:39.120 --> 1:15:43.360 a broken immigration system and the one who's trying to 1:15:43.479 --> 1:15:44.600 stop her. 1:15:47.560 --> 1:15:48.839 A cop or a clown? 1:15:48.920 --> 1:15:52.760 Who should we vote for president? And that's exactly it, right. 1:15:53.240 --> 1:15:55.680 She's leaning really heavily on this, like I am a 1:15:55.760 --> 1:15:59.479 cop thing and like we have spent and continue to 1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:02.720 spend billions of dollars on border cops. That is not 1:16:02.920 --> 1:16:05.880 the fucking solution. It never will be the solution. We 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:09.920 cannot make this giant border so full of cops that 1:16:09.960 --> 1:16:12.400 it's impossible for people to cross it. People will still 1:16:12.400 --> 1:16:14.640 cross it because cops ain't going to go to the 1:16:14.680 --> 1:16:16.559 middle of the desert, because you know, be inherent in 1:16:16.600 --> 1:16:18.960 being a cop is also being lazy. So I want 1:16:19.000 --> 1:16:22.240 to play some stuff that she said in Atlanta this week. 1:16:22.920 --> 1:16:27.439 So here is my pledge to you. As president. I 1:16:27.560 --> 1:16:31.360 will bring back the border security bill that Donald Trump 1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:38.400 killed and I will sign it into law. And so 1:16:38.800 --> 1:16:41.400 Donald Trump, what real leadership looks like? 1:16:45.439 --> 1:16:48.840 Oh fuck off? Yeah, So I'm going to subject you 1:16:48.880 --> 1:16:51.960 to some Carmela and some Trump today. That's okay, I 1:16:52.040 --> 1:16:54.680 signed up for this, Okay. So here's another one of her, 1:16:54.840 --> 1:16:57.120 and this I think is really telling right where she 1:16:57.240 --> 1:17:00.639 is bragging about the most conservative Republicans her bill. 1:17:01.439 --> 1:17:05.720 Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been talking a 1:17:05.880 --> 1:17:10.960 big game about securing our border, but he does not 1:17:11.120 --> 1:17:16.360 walk the walk, or as my friend Quavo would say, 1:17:17.240 --> 1:17:20.120 he does not walk it like he talks it. 1:17:30.479 --> 1:17:31.040 Where if. 1:17:38.120 --> 1:17:42.280 So, Look, our administration worked on the most significant border 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:47.560 security bill in decades. Some of the most conservative Republicans 1:17:47.600 --> 1:17:51.360 in Washington, d C. Supported the bill. Even the Border 1:17:51.680 --> 1:17:53.080 Patrol endorsed it. 1:17:54.280 --> 1:17:58.040 So I'm going to read some transcription that speech as well. 1:17:58.120 --> 1:18:00.400 Just this is pretty much the only point of data 1:18:00.479 --> 1:18:02.960 we have on her proposed border policy. So we're going 1:18:03.000 --> 1:18:04.960 heavy on this speech that she gave in Atlanta at 1:18:04.960 --> 1:18:09.560 a rally. Right, I went after transnational gangs, drug cartails, 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:12.280 and human traffickers that came into our country legally. I 1:18:12.360 --> 1:18:16.200 prosecuted them in case after case, and I won, Harris said. 1:18:16.600 --> 1:18:18.760 Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been talking a 1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:20.960 big game about securing our border, but he does not 1:18:21.000 --> 1:18:22.760 walk the walk. That's what you just heard, right, And 1:18:22.760 --> 1:18:26.800 then she goes on to reference Quavo, which is cool 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:30.559 and normal. So let's talk about that leadership, and let's 1:18:30.560 --> 1:18:32.519 talk about the bill she's proposing. Right. This is a 1:18:32.600 --> 1:18:38.360 bipartisan bill that was proposed last year and that didn't succeed. Right, 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:41.080 it's the one that Democrats are making a big fuss about. 1:18:41.080 --> 1:18:43.800 Republicans getting the border bill. It's one of the only 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:46.720 good things they've ever done, actually, because it represented a 1:18:46.920 --> 1:18:49.960 massive right wood swing from where Democrats have previously been 1:18:50.160 --> 1:18:54.000 on immigration. In the bill, DHS could close the border 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:56.720 if border patrol encountered four thousand or more migrants on 1:18:56.760 --> 1:18:59.680 average over a seven day period. The border would then 1:18:59.720 --> 1:19:02.160 have to be shut down if encounters reached a seven 1:19:02.200 --> 1:19:05.080 day average of five thousand, or if they exceeded eighty 1:19:05.160 --> 1:19:06.479 five hundred in a single day. 1:19:06.680 --> 1:19:08.840 Does that happen on these numbers like realistic? 1:19:09.640 --> 1:19:12.479 Yes? Well, A really important thing to remember when we 1:19:12.520 --> 1:19:15.040 talk about these numbers is did you notice that it 1:19:15.080 --> 1:19:19.599 was phrases encounters, not people. So this is a thing 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:23.240 that is apparently impossible if you write for a fucking 1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:28.080 broadsheet corporate legacy newspaper to understand an encounter does not 1:19:28.200 --> 1:19:32.280 represent a unique individual. Border patrol do not give us 1:19:32.360 --> 1:19:35.160 data on unique individuals. They give us data on encounters. 1:19:35.439 --> 1:19:38.160 And this is important because under title forty two, which 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:39.880 I made a series about last year that you can 1:19:39.920 --> 1:19:42.280 listen to, I would like it if you did, people 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:44.720 can be returned to Mexico. And as you'll see, and 1:19:44.800 --> 1:19:47.600 under this proposal, people can be returned to Mexico and 1:19:47.640 --> 1:19:50.000 then they will try and come back because most of 1:19:50.040 --> 1:19:52.679 the people coming to our border are not from Mexico. 1:19:53.040 --> 1:19:55.880 Nor do they have roots in Mexico, nor can they 1:19:55.960 --> 1:19:58.880 be safe in Mexico. So they will try and come back, 1:19:58.880 --> 1:20:01.240 and they will try and come back in a different place, 1:20:01.280 --> 1:20:04.080 in a more remote place, and that will result in 1:20:04.120 --> 1:20:06.840 a higher risk to their lives making that journey. Right, So, 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:10.720 eighty five hundred individuals across the whole border doesn't mean 1:20:10.760 --> 1:20:13.240 it to have them five hundred people. But yes, those 1:20:13.320 --> 1:20:15.440 numbers are reachable. 1:20:15.720 --> 1:20:18.679 That's just so that's so disingenuous to word it that way. 1:20:19.000 --> 1:20:22.519 Yeah, Border Patrol just had like I don't know, they 1:20:22.560 --> 1:20:24.880 had so much success with doing this under title forty two, 1:20:24.960 --> 1:20:27.400 Like we're flooded with migrants and I've spoken to people 1:20:27.400 --> 1:20:30.880 who have tried seven times to cross. You know, it's 1:20:30.920 --> 1:20:34.160 extremely disingenuous, and I think we're going to get onto this. 1:20:34.240 --> 1:20:36.160 But this is a debate about the border happening by 1:20:36.160 --> 1:20:38.639 people who never go to the border and don't understand 1:20:38.720 --> 1:20:42.200 what it's like, both in the media and in politics, 1:20:42.439 --> 1:20:46.120 and I think that that is a problem. So when 1:20:46.120 --> 1:20:49.160 it's closed, quote unquote, now, we can't close the border 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:53.000 right like a physically we cannot be We're not going 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:56.000 to close the border and be like Okay, Mexico. No tomatoes, Okay, 1:20:56.200 --> 1:20:59.200 No tourists can come into Orlando now, right that that's 1:20:59.240 --> 1:21:01.880 not what it's about. Is open to capital and is 1:21:01.960 --> 1:21:04.960 open to wealthy people. All we're doing is closing it 1:21:05.000 --> 1:21:07.760 to the people who most need a help, that being 1:21:07.800 --> 1:21:12.400 people seeking asylum. Right, So when it's quote unquote closed, 1:21:12.640 --> 1:21:16.240 they would still process fourteen hundred migrants through ports of entry. 1:21:16.680 --> 1:21:19.840 That would presumably be people arriving using CBP one, which 1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:22.799 is a fatally flawed app which doesn't work for black folks, 1:21:23.400 --> 1:21:27.400 which has been hacked. All the appointments are sold booked 1:21:27.479 --> 1:21:29.519 up month in advance. You can only use it north 1:21:29.560 --> 1:21:33.679 of Mexico City. It's a complete mess. Every single migrant 1:21:33.680 --> 1:21:36.920 I have encountered has tried to use CBP one and 1:21:36.960 --> 1:21:39.439 given up. It's not even available in that many languages, right, 1:21:39.479 --> 1:21:42.400 I think is English, Spanish, and Haitian creole. Right now, Well, 1:21:43.120 --> 1:21:46.840 it's ludicrous to suggest that this is accessible, and it 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:49.200 doesn't work very well on Samsung phones. I have a 1:21:49.240 --> 1:21:53.920 pra a foil. I guess a foyer out to CBP 1:21:54.000 --> 1:21:56.519 about that. But you know, maybe in six years, after 1:21:56.640 --> 1:21:59.599 like several court cases, I'll get it back. But I 1:21:59.680 --> 1:22:04.439 know that people are buying iPhones migrant advocates both in 1:22:04.479 --> 1:22:08.080 Mexico City and north of there to allow migrants to 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:11.120 access the app. They're trying to help them overcome these hurdles, right, 1:22:11.160 --> 1:22:14.120 but like, fucking come on, you know, we've got the 1:22:14.240 --> 1:22:17.040 entire US government here and it's my friends trying to 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:19.559 get five bucks from from you know whoever to buy 1:22:19.600 --> 1:22:23.040 an iPhone so migrants can share it, Like it's obscene. 1:22:23.760 --> 1:22:27.160 Only unaccompanied miners would be processed if they between ports 1:22:27.160 --> 1:22:29.479 of entry, right, So that's people under the age of 1:22:29.520 --> 1:22:32.439 eighteen without their folks, anyone who tried to cross between 1:22:32.479 --> 1:22:34.640 ports of entry. So port of entry is when you 1:22:34.680 --> 1:22:36.559 cross the border with your passport and you go through 1:22:36.600 --> 1:22:38.280 an office at support of entry. Right, So if you 1:22:38.320 --> 1:22:40.639 cross in another fashion over a river, over a wall, 1:22:40.880 --> 1:22:43.960 around a wall, under a wall, through a wall, just 1:22:44.000 --> 1:22:46.280 across the desert where there isn't a wall, that's between 1:22:46.280 --> 1:22:48.920 ports of entries. If anyone tries two or more times, 1:22:49.000 --> 1:22:51.400 then during a border emergency, they will be barred from 1:22:51.439 --> 1:22:53.760 the United States for a period I think it's a year. 1:22:54.360 --> 1:22:57.320 I should note that this bill didn't pass, but Biden 1:22:57.400 --> 1:23:00.600 did write an executive order setting an arbitry cap twenty 1:23:00.760 --> 1:23:03.400 five hundred encounters per day, which you will notice is lower. 1:23:03.800 --> 1:23:06.920 And it removed the requirement that border patrol ask migrants 1:23:06.920 --> 1:23:09.160 if they fear persecution. So this is really important. It's 1:23:09.160 --> 1:23:12.719 called a shout test. And the difference here is between 1:23:12.800 --> 1:23:15.400 me saying and ensuring you've just come across the border, 1:23:15.439 --> 1:23:18.240 are you here because you fear persecution? Can you not 1:23:18.320 --> 1:23:20.559 safely go home? And me just saying get in the 1:23:20.600 --> 1:23:24.519 fucking van, and you having to articulate that you fear persecution, right, 1:23:24.720 --> 1:23:26.840 Which is that requires them to know that they have 1:23:26.880 --> 1:23:28.800 to articulate it. It requires them to be able to 1:23:28.920 --> 1:23:31.599 articulate it in a language it's intelligible to the officer 1:23:31.680 --> 1:23:35.120 or whoever's interviewing them. Right, it's a much higher barrier. 1:23:35.200 --> 1:23:37.200 And in both cases, right, you could have the same 1:23:37.280 --> 1:23:40.679 person and they could be rejected because they didn't pass 1:23:40.800 --> 1:23:44.000 this so called shout test. It's ridiculous. It's a really 1:23:44.040 --> 1:23:47.960 bullshit workaround for someone who is clearly eligible for asylum, right. Yeah, 1:23:48.240 --> 1:23:51.360 And like any good faith actor wants to find out 1:23:51.880 --> 1:23:54.160 if that person is going to be persecuted when they 1:23:54.200 --> 1:23:57.080 go home. And so moving to a shout test like 1:23:57.120 --> 1:24:00.479 you are consciously saying some people would and to send 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:03.639 home they will fucking die, or they will be tortured, 1:24:03.920 --> 1:24:06.599 or they will face persecution of other means, right, because 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:10.400 they didn't articulate in the right words their fear of persecution. 1:24:10.560 --> 1:24:12.799 And it's just there is not a good faith argument 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:15.280 for this. It's just get numbers down at the cost 1:24:15.280 --> 1:24:19.559 of human suffering. So in this case, right, I have 1:24:19.720 --> 1:24:23.080 met migrants with pretty rock solid claims. I don't want 1:24:23.120 --> 1:24:25.200 to go into the details of their cases too much. 1:24:25.240 --> 1:24:28.599 I will in the future, but like you know, I'm 1:24:28.600 --> 1:24:31.920 out at the border a lot, and I'm out in 1:24:31.960 --> 1:24:34.640 the back country there a lot, and I try and 1:24:34.640 --> 1:24:36.400 help people whenever I can. I talk to them about 1:24:36.400 --> 1:24:38.160 their claims. And I'm not going to ask someone to 1:24:38.400 --> 1:24:40.840 justify their trauma to me with seventeen documents, right, But 1:24:40.880 --> 1:24:42.599 some of them have shown me things which I do 1:24:42.640 --> 1:24:45.280 believe would would be a very cast iron assilum claim, 1:24:45.400 --> 1:24:48.560 and they seem to be since Biden's executive order just 1:24:48.600 --> 1:24:52.320 getting booted back across the border, so he kind of 1:24:52.400 --> 1:24:55.360 worked around that part of the bill failing. But let's 1:24:55.360 --> 1:24:57.720 look at what else is in it. So if the 1:24:57.760 --> 1:25:00.559 bill that Harris is saying she will reintroduce. Of course 1:25:00.680 --> 1:25:03.559 she herself can't, right, it's a legislative act or senator 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:06.160 or how over the House would The bill would limit 1:25:06.200 --> 1:25:09.679 border closures to two hundred and seventy days, two hundred 1:25:09.680 --> 1:25:11.240 and twenty five days, and one hundred and eighty days 1:25:11.280 --> 1:25:14.479 for the first three years, which no, there's no limit 1:25:14.520 --> 1:25:16.679 in the Biden executive order, So I guess that's better. 1:25:16.760 --> 1:25:19.400 I guess I mean fucking two hundred and seventy days 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:22.679 when you can't claim asylum, that's a lot of days. 1:25:23.040 --> 1:25:25.280 There's also funding a lot of funding for more border 1:25:25.280 --> 1:25:28.160 patrol agents, of course, more asylum officers, as well as 1:25:28.200 --> 1:25:30.519 more than one hundred judges. We do need to move 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:33.000 people through the immigration system, but a lot more pressingly, 1:25:33.040 --> 1:25:35.599 we need to open legal passways that are not walking 1:25:35.600 --> 1:25:38.840 across the desert and passing a shout test. It would 1:25:38.920 --> 1:25:41.639 mandate detaining migrants so they try to enter the US 1:25:41.680 --> 1:25:44.120 outside of ports of entry, depending their asylum claim. So 1:25:44.200 --> 1:25:46.640 this is really big. Actually, it's going to result in 1:25:46.640 --> 1:25:49.360 a massive increase in the amount of asylum detention beds 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:52.160 we need. The bill contains funding for another ten thousand 1:25:52.240 --> 1:25:55.040 more beds will probably end up needing more than that. 1:25:55.760 --> 1:25:59.800 But all of these beds are not in state run facilities, right, 1:26:00.040 --> 1:26:04.000 and private facilities. ICE coordinates with it's cour civic. It's 1:26:04.080 --> 1:26:07.240 people who when Biden first came into office, he wrote 1:26:07.240 --> 1:26:09.559 he wrote an executive order about getting rid of private prisons. 1:26:09.640 --> 1:26:13.000 These are the private prisons. This is how we reallocated 1:26:13.120 --> 1:26:15.720 money to those same people doing this terrible thing, right, 1:26:15.760 --> 1:26:18.280 which is locking people up for profit. I've heard terrible 1:26:18.280 --> 1:26:21.479 stories about the conditions in some of these detention centers. 1:26:22.120 --> 1:26:25.400 And this is the guy who ran on and bragged 1:26:25.439 --> 1:26:29.000 about closing down private prisons, sending more money to private 1:26:29.000 --> 1:26:33.240 prisons just for migrants dot citizens because apparently their rights 1:26:33.520 --> 1:26:36.360 don't matter as much, their lives don't matter as much. 1:26:37.240 --> 1:26:39.559 Talking of things that don't matter, Sharin, should we take 1:26:39.600 --> 1:26:52.240 an at break? That was beautiful, James, thank you. So 1:26:52.680 --> 1:26:55.439 we're back, and I want to talk about what Harris 1:26:55.520 --> 1:27:00.080 has done as VP, which is they put her on 1:27:00.200 --> 1:27:02.800 this root causes beat right, what she's supposed to go 1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:05.960 after the root causes of migration. So I want to 1:27:05.960 --> 1:27:08.320 start with this message that she sent to the people 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:09.559 of Guatemala. 1:27:10.120 --> 1:27:13.120 I want to be clear to folks in this region 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:17.680 who are thinking about making that dangerous track to the 1:27:17.800 --> 1:27:24.400 United States Mexico border, do not come. Do not come. 1:27:25.920 --> 1:27:29.360 The United States will continue to enforce our laws and 1:27:29.479 --> 1:27:35.240 secure our border. They are legal methods by which migration 1:27:35.960 --> 1:27:41.440 can and should occur. But we, as one of our priorities, 1:27:41.600 --> 1:27:48.559 will discourage illegal migration. And I believe if you come 1:27:48.560 --> 1:27:50.800 to our border, you will be turned back. 1:27:51.680 --> 1:27:55.519 Do not come. Yeah, I think I've seen that before. Yeah. 1:27:55.800 --> 1:27:58.720 She took a lot of shit for that one, rightly understandably. 1:27:58.800 --> 1:27:59.000 Yeah. 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:01.520 Yeah, this is not the only time to bide. Administration 1:28:01.600 --> 1:28:04.000 said this. By the way, they were tweeting do not 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:07.120 comb in Haitian creole in twenty twenty one from the 1:28:07.600 --> 1:28:11.040 Embassy of the United States in eighty. This has been 1:28:11.120 --> 1:28:14.320 their message and continues to be their message. 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:16.679 Now to the ongoing crisis down to the southern border. 1:28:16.520 --> 1:28:20.240 The focus of Vice President Kamala Harris's first overseas trip 1:28:20.280 --> 1:28:21.240 since taking office. 1:28:21.360 --> 1:28:24.400 She had some Mexico today after spending yesterday in Guatemala, 1:28:24.400 --> 1:28:27.120 where she announced several initiatives and delivered a message to 1:28:27.160 --> 1:28:30.799 potential migrants there, do not come to the United States. 1:28:31.040 --> 1:28:33.919 The Vice President also sat down exclusively with the NBC's 1:28:33.960 --> 1:28:37.840 Lester Hoole, who began by asking her about that warning. 1:28:38.360 --> 1:28:40.880 In the news conference here in Guatemala City. You had 1:28:40.920 --> 1:28:45.040 a message for would be migrants, don't come. Why should 1:28:45.080 --> 1:28:47.599 they believe you when they know that people are getting in. 1:28:48.000 --> 1:28:50.800 I've been working on this issue for a very long 1:28:50.840 --> 1:28:57.479 time and the kind of violence and danger that is 1:28:57.520 --> 1:29:01.960 associated with that track. Actually, when we're talking about from 1:29:02.000 --> 1:29:07.080 Guatemala through Mexico to the United States, it's extremely dangerous. 1:29:07.240 --> 1:29:11.759 We are looking at a situation where people are fleeing 1:29:11.840 --> 1:29:15.960 because of hunger, because of the hurricanes, because of the pandemic. 1:29:16.360 --> 1:29:18.879 So the reason I am here is to address those issues. 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:22.360 Knowing that the people who are here for generations, they 1:29:22.360 --> 1:29:24.599 want to stay, they don't want to leave, but they 1:29:24.640 --> 1:29:27.200 need opportunity, they need assistance, they need support. 1:29:27.360 --> 1:29:29.320 Americans don't see a lot of them on a daily basis. 1:29:29.360 --> 1:29:32.280 What they do see it at their own border, children 1:29:32.320 --> 1:29:36.439 being lowered over offences, children coming in with phone numbers 1:29:36.439 --> 1:29:39.920 stenciled on their hand. And so the question has come up, 1:29:39.960 --> 1:29:42.080 and you heard it here and you'll hear it again, 1:29:42.080 --> 1:29:44.719 I'm sure it is why not visit the border? Why 1:29:44.720 --> 1:29:47.839 not see what Americans are seeing in this crisis. 1:29:48.560 --> 1:29:50.760 Well, we are going to the border. We have to 1:29:50.800 --> 1:29:52.679 deal with what's happening at the border. There's no question 1:29:52.720 --> 1:29:55.840 about that. That's not a debatable point. But we have 1:29:55.960 --> 1:29:59.000 to understand that there's a reason people are arriving at 1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:02.160 our border and ask what is that reason, and then 1:30:02.560 --> 1:30:05.360 identify the problem so we can fix it. 1:30:06.080 --> 1:30:08.360 Okay. So all of this was while the Biden administration 1:30:08.479 --> 1:30:12.040 continued to defend and force Title forty two. If people 1:30:12.240 --> 1:30:14.240 haven't listened to the series that made about Title forty two, 1:30:14.240 --> 1:30:16.920 and I've said that twice, but that's like two three 1:30:16.960 --> 1:30:19.160 hours of me explaining Title forty two, so that would 1:30:19.160 --> 1:30:21.200 explain it better than a cand in twenty seconds. Here, 1:30:21.880 --> 1:30:24.400 Title forty two is a public health law, and the 1:30:24.439 --> 1:30:26.439 idea of Title forty two is to prevent people with 1:30:26.520 --> 1:30:30.400 tuberculosis coming into the United States. An element of Title 1:30:30.400 --> 1:30:32.840 forty two of the United States Code it contains this. 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:34.840 The idea was never to use it as a de 1:30:34.920 --> 1:30:37.480 facto block on asylum, which is what the Trump administration 1:30:37.640 --> 1:30:40.519 did for a year and the Biden administration did for 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:43.680 nearly three years. The Bidens Registration did it for much 1:30:43.760 --> 1:30:46.599 much longer. This ended in May of twenty twenty three, 1:30:47.520 --> 1:30:51.120 and it was used. They called it catch and release, right. 1:30:51.200 --> 1:30:52.800 It was used to bounce people straight back. As we 1:30:52.840 --> 1:30:54.080 spoke about before. 1:30:54.240 --> 1:30:57.720 Catch and release. It's like you're literally like an animal practice, 1:30:57.960 --> 1:30:58.320 you know. 1:30:58.520 --> 1:31:03.040 Like right, yeah, like these people are fucking fish, and 1:31:03.080 --> 1:31:05.960 I don't like doing that to fish. Personally, I shouldn't 1:31:06.160 --> 1:31:09.080 stress out of fish. It's just vibing down there. Don't 1:31:09.120 --> 1:31:13.080 ruin its day. So later in that same interview, she 1:31:13.200 --> 1:31:17.240 was very defensive about her failing to visit the border. 1:31:17.400 --> 1:31:20.880 But I think there are very reasonable questions. Sometimes these 1:31:20.880 --> 1:31:23.840 criticisms are used in bad faith by Republicans, So is 1:31:23.920 --> 1:31:27.560 everything right? It doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about this. 1:31:27.720 --> 1:31:32.439 We should. I didn't see a single elected official from 1:31:32.479 --> 1:31:36.040 the Democrat Party. I guess fucking Jim Desmond turned up, 1:31:36.160 --> 1:31:39.200 but I wish he wouldn't. He turned up, told lies 1:31:39.240 --> 1:31:41.800 about who paid for the aid, and then forced his 1:31:41.880 --> 1:31:43.600 in turn to apologize for it when a bunch of 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:47.200 people turned up at his office. Really great integrity. I 1:31:47.200 --> 1:31:50.759 didn't see a single Democrat for the months that border 1:31:50.800 --> 1:31:54.559 patrol held thousands of people in open air attention without food, water, 1:31:54.680 --> 1:31:57.080 or shelter, and for the months of my friends and 1:31:57.120 --> 1:32:01.040 I took care of them instead. What was doing was 1:32:01.240 --> 1:32:04.360 trying to connect business leaders with economies in Central America 1:32:04.439 --> 1:32:07.680 to quote create jobs. Right. She has some success with 1:32:07.720 --> 1:32:11.280 a Japanese car factor in Guatemala and a Swiss coffee 1:32:11.320 --> 1:32:15.439 processor buying more beans and committing to more coffee purchases. Right. 1:32:16.040 --> 1:32:21.520 But this shit does not work and it has never worked. Right. Obviously, 1:32:21.640 --> 1:32:24.200 my position on global economics is not the same as hers. 1:32:24.240 --> 1:32:28.920 But we can't trickle down the causes of migration. We 1:32:28.960 --> 1:32:31.320 can't do this with like a rising tide levels or 1:32:31.320 --> 1:32:35.880 boat GDP stuff. Even if we do buy this kind 1:32:35.920 --> 1:32:41.360 of freakonomics tier bullshit, it doesn't matter because the change 1:32:41.360 --> 1:32:43.280 is going to take decades to come. 1:32:43.439 --> 1:32:43.559 Right. 1:32:43.680 --> 1:32:47.080 You can't just just change a national economy. Change deals 1:32:47.080 --> 1:32:51.120 with unemployment, with violence, with state violence, with nonstate violence overnight. 1:32:52.200 --> 1:32:54.719 And it's very likely that the pace of climate change 1:32:54.800 --> 1:32:58.960 alone will outstrip any benefits that these programs provide. Right, 1:32:59.000 --> 1:33:02.800 Because we are seeing increasingly people coming from countries that 1:33:02.840 --> 1:33:06.240 are the most impacted by climate change to countries like 1:33:06.280 --> 1:33:08.120 the United States, one of the countries that has made 1:33:08.120 --> 1:33:11.800 the largest contribution to the climate change. Right, But this 1:33:12.000 --> 1:33:16.320 idea of like trickle down economics to stop migration, it 1:33:16.360 --> 1:33:20.120 doesn't address the issue that most of the migrants are 1:33:20.120 --> 1:33:22.120 no longer coming from the places she's going, right, So 1:33:22.160 --> 1:33:25.840 she's worked pretty extensively in the Northern Triangle, Guatemala, Hondoras, 1:33:25.840 --> 1:33:29.200 in El Salvador. These are places which sent a lot 1:33:29.200 --> 1:33:31.439 of migrants. May be in the earlier Barber administration, but 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:34.800 that's not the case anymore. Right, those are not typically 1:33:34.800 --> 1:33:37.880 places I see migrants from, right, I see migrants from Venezuela, 1:33:38.200 --> 1:33:39.639 and we're going to get a lot more of those. 1:33:40.000 --> 1:33:42.479 I see migrants from Turkey, many of them, but not 1:33:42.600 --> 1:33:46.839 all of them, Kurdish. I see migrants from North Africa. 1:33:47.080 --> 1:33:50.320 I see migrants from the Sahel. I see migrants from India. 1:33:50.800 --> 1:33:53.519 I don't particularly see people from the Northern Triangle. So 1:33:53.560 --> 1:33:56.120 the idea that like lifting the economy in the Northern 1:33:56.160 --> 1:33:58.120 Triangle is going to move the needle. It's just not. 1:33:58.840 --> 1:34:01.320 Even if we buy the idea that it's possible, I 1:34:01.360 --> 1:34:05.840 don't think it is. So that's calmer. Let's take a 1:34:05.840 --> 1:34:08.400 look at Donald Trump. I guess I should give people 1:34:08.400 --> 1:34:10.400 a trigger warning I'm only going to include a little 1:34:10.400 --> 1:34:14.240 bit of Donald Trump audio here, but yeah, you can 1:34:14.280 --> 1:34:15.840 tap the skit button if you don't want to hear 1:34:16.040 --> 1:34:22.640 Donald Trump talking. So, Donald Trump's policies largely are in 1:34:22.720 --> 1:34:26.599 response to things that are not real or proposing things 1:34:26.640 --> 1:34:29.240 that the president or Congress cannot do, or that the 1:34:29.240 --> 1:34:32.800 president cannot do without the support of Congress. So his 1:34:32.960 --> 1:34:37.040 first thing is talking about ending birthright citizenship. This is 1:34:37.080 --> 1:34:40.120 not a thing that he can do by executive order, right. 1:34:40.120 --> 1:34:42.760 This is an amendment to the Constitution that requires an 1:34:42.760 --> 1:34:45.320 amendment to the Constitution to party back. Now, you can 1:34:45.920 --> 1:34:48.280 mend the constitution, but I don't think you'd ever get 1:34:48.320 --> 1:34:51.240 support for ending birth right citizenship. Right. This has been 1:34:51.280 --> 1:34:53.879 the case since after the Civil War, and it exists 1:34:54.000 --> 1:34:57.799 to stop people disenfranchising the children of formally enslaved people. 1:34:58.400 --> 1:35:02.120 Under Biden's current policies, even though these millions of illegal 1:35:02.160 --> 1:35:06.360 border crosses have entered the country unlawfully, all of their 1:35:06.439 --> 1:35:10.160 future children will become automatic US citizens. Can you imagine 1:35:10.800 --> 1:35:14.920 They'll be eligible for welfare, taxpayer funded healthcare, the rate 1:35:14.960 --> 1:35:19.200 to vote, chain migration, and countless other government benefits, many 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:24.000 of which will also profit the illegal alien parents. This 1:35:24.120 --> 1:35:26.559 policy is a reward for breaking the laws of the 1:35:26.680 --> 1:35:31.320 United States and is obviously a magnet helping draw the 1:35:31.360 --> 1:35:34.439 flood of illegals across our borders. They come by the 1:35:34.479 --> 1:35:36.440 millions and millions and minions. 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:39.080 So another thing that don Trump wants to do is 1:35:39.120 --> 1:35:42.400 do away with the Diversity Visa program. Are you familiar 1:35:42.439 --> 1:35:44.320 with the Diversity visa. 1:35:45.360 --> 1:35:48.920 No, I'm going to say no, I'm familiar with it, 1:35:48.960 --> 1:35:51.920 but I have to like know what it is in detail, 1:35:52.080 --> 1:35:53.640 So please tell me, James. 1:35:53.520 --> 1:35:56.760 Okay, I would love to tell you. Sharing the DV program. 1:35:57.280 --> 1:36:00.799 I will avoid using the acronymagine because can be unfortunately 1:36:01.000 --> 1:36:03.439 send us down. Yeah, they were just sending cops all 1:36:03.439 --> 1:36:08.599 over the world. Yeah. The Diversity Visa program, better known 1:36:08.600 --> 1:36:11.920 as the Green Card Lottery, allows about fifty five thousand 1:36:12.040 --> 1:36:14.559 or exactly fifty five thousand in theory, immigrant visas a 1:36:14.640 --> 1:36:17.960 year for individuals from countries that are underrepresented in the 1:36:18.040 --> 1:36:22.200 US immigration system. I remember that. Well, that sounds familiar. Yes, okay, yeah, 1:36:22.400 --> 1:36:26.000 so like you'll meet people almost everywhere I go. I 1:36:26.080 --> 1:36:28.160 tend not to go to countries that are highly represented 1:36:28.160 --> 1:36:31.599 in the US immigration system, right, those being countries that 1:36:31.800 --> 1:36:33.600 find it easier for people to get visas like h 1:36:33.680 --> 1:36:37.040 one B's right because they are more economically maybe close 1:36:37.120 --> 1:36:41.040 to the United States and have educational credentials that translate across. 1:36:41.640 --> 1:36:46.200 So the Trump administration had made the diversity visa program 1:36:46.200 --> 1:36:50.799 it's such a massive cluster fuck that it effectively didn't work. 1:36:50.920 --> 1:36:52.960 And the way that this happened was because you don't 1:36:53.000 --> 1:36:54.559 just win the green card lottery and they mail a 1:36:54.560 --> 1:36:56.759 green cards to your house, like come on over, Bud, 1:36:57.000 --> 1:36:58.639 you win the lottery, and that gives you the right 1:36:58.720 --> 1:37:02.040 to go to the EMBAS set to do an interview, 1:37:02.400 --> 1:37:04.800 and then you make the application. Right then the check 1:37:04.840 --> 1:37:06.920 you off on any checklist you might be on, all 1:37:06.920 --> 1:37:09.360 the stuff that would normally apply to a migrant. It's 1:37:09.439 --> 1:37:14.120 not like an amnust visa. And what the Trump administration 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:16.240 did was make it very hard for people to get 1:37:16.240 --> 1:37:19.320 these appointments, especially during COVID and this has been the 1:37:19.320 --> 1:37:22.519 case with the Bide administration as well. They get the 1:37:22.520 --> 1:37:25.160 lowest priority now the cambuc and appointment that other people's 1:37:25.160 --> 1:37:28.040 stuff gets to sort of overtake them in the line, right, 1:37:28.400 --> 1:37:31.080 because you only have a year from receiving it to 1:37:31.160 --> 1:37:34.439 claiming it. De facto. This means that people don't get 1:37:34.479 --> 1:37:37.679 it right, So we are not fifty five thousand people 1:37:37.680 --> 1:37:41.200 are not coming because of the diversity visa. Even if 1:37:41.200 --> 1:37:44.760 they were, this is not very many people. And like 1:37:44.960 --> 1:37:47.519 it's just Trump. I don't know, maybe he saw the 1:37:47.560 --> 1:37:51.919 phrase diversity and became triggered. But it's a weird little bugbear, 1:37:52.320 --> 1:37:54.120 which I guess if you can focus on weird little things. 1:37:54.120 --> 1:37:57.040 But still, the diversity visa is great. The people I 1:37:57.080 --> 1:37:59.439 know who often most deserve visas people who can't even 1:37:59.479 --> 1:38:02.080 afford to make the trip right to walk here or 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:04.880 you know, if you're not in the continental Americas, it's 1:38:04.920 --> 1:38:06.880 a lot more expensive you have to fly. I guess 1:38:06.880 --> 1:38:09.320 you could take a vote. But some of those people. 1:38:09.439 --> 1:38:12.880 I thank my friend who driving all around Iraq is 1:38:12.920 --> 1:38:15.720 applying for a diversity visa, and like, I really hope 1:38:15.720 --> 1:38:20.599 he gets it. Lovely man. Trump also has this buck 1:38:20.640 --> 1:38:25.000 there about DHS paying benefits to quote illegal aliens. 1:38:26.040 --> 1:38:30.400 Crookie Joe Biden is running a NonStop conveyor belt importing. 1:38:29.960 --> 1:38:31.719 Illegal aliens from all over. 1:38:31.520 --> 1:38:35.600 The world into our country, and the Biden Department of 1:38:35.680 --> 1:38:41.040 Homeland Security is abusing it. So called parole authority to 1:38:41.120 --> 1:38:45.440 give them more governmental benefits than many law abiding citizens, 1:38:45.479 --> 1:38:49.200 including our vets. Our vets are being taken advantage of, 1:38:49.240 --> 1:38:52.639 Our citizens are being taken advantage of. It's very unfair 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:54.600 and it's not going to stand. 1:38:55.000 --> 1:38:57.439 The Department of how my security doesn't pay and benefits 1:38:57.439 --> 1:38:59.439 to anyone. I guess it pays like border patrol agents 1:38:59.439 --> 1:39:01.360 and people who work for it, but it's not giving 1:39:01.400 --> 1:39:06.080 anyone public benefits. Right. Undocumented people are normally ineligible for 1:39:06.240 --> 1:39:09.519 most benefits, even people who do have legal status, and 1:39:09.560 --> 1:39:13.479 he consistently conflates asylum seekers with undocumented people, right, maybe 1:39:13.520 --> 1:39:15.639 because he genuinely doesn't know the difference, and it doesn't 1:39:15.720 --> 1:39:18.920 care to learn the difference. Even people who have legal 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:22.080 status face a range of hurdles, like sometimes they have 1:39:22.439 --> 1:39:25.040 a forty quarter work bar for example, right, so that 1:39:25.080 --> 1:39:28.200 it means you have to have been working for forty 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:32.240 periods of three months consecutively. Again, this is kind of 1:39:32.479 --> 1:39:35.120 He might be talking about something called the public charge rule, 1:39:35.640 --> 1:39:41.000 which can interfere with your citizenship or visa application if 1:39:41.000 --> 1:39:43.599 you've taken certain times of benefits. So maybe he's looking 1:39:44.160 --> 1:39:46.839 to make that a little bit broader. But again it's 1:39:46.880 --> 1:39:49.719 really unclear, and it's kind of identity politics s grifting. 1:39:50.280 --> 1:39:55.559 The next thing is we're getting towards QAnon territory. Now, great, I. 1:39:55.479 --> 1:39:58.160 Will use Title forty two to end the child traffic 1:39:58.280 --> 1:40:01.840 in crisis by returning all trafphic children to their families 1:40:02.240 --> 1:40:05.720 in their home countries and without delay. And I will 1:40:05.840 --> 1:40:09.200 urge Congress to ensure that anyone caught traffic in children 1:40:09.200 --> 1:40:13.240 of course our border receives the death penalty immediately, and 1:40:13.280 --> 1:40:17.000 that includes also for women, because women, as you know, 1:40:17.360 --> 1:40:21.120 are number one in trafficking children are actually number two. 1:40:21.640 --> 1:40:24.200 This is some weird shit. First of all, right, but 1:40:24.600 --> 1:40:26.840 he talks about using Title forty two. This is not, 1:40:27.000 --> 1:40:29.599 as I've talked about three times now, what Title forty 1:40:29.640 --> 1:40:34.200 two is for. It's very obvious that he thinks Title 1:40:34.200 --> 1:40:36.760 forty two is immigration law, because he very obviously used 1:40:36.760 --> 1:40:39.360 it as that. Right. He was not using Title forty 1:40:39.400 --> 1:40:42.280 two to stop people getting COVID because he did square 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:45.400 root of fuckles stop people getting COVID, right, and there 1:40:45.400 --> 1:40:48.840 were not exemptions for vaccinated people. It's very obvious that 1:40:48.880 --> 1:40:52.559 they use Title forty two cynically as an immigration law. 1:40:52.640 --> 1:40:56.000 That is not what it is. Also deporting someone back 1:40:56.000 --> 1:40:59.000 to the situation they were trafficked from. Maybe not smart, 1:40:59.400 --> 1:41:02.800 like maybe maybe especially a miner who is trafficked here, 1:41:02.880 --> 1:41:04.840 maybe we could help them, you know, one of the 1:41:04.960 --> 1:41:07.320 richest countries the manager has ever seen. Maybe not just 1:41:07.360 --> 1:41:09.920 bumping them straight back to that country, maybe showing a 1:41:09.960 --> 1:41:13.559 little bit of compassion. Human trafficking is a problem, but 1:41:13.760 --> 1:41:17.320 this is not the solution. So Harris kind of touts 1:41:17.439 --> 1:41:23.120 her prosecutorial experience when she talks about human trafficking. She's 1:41:23.160 --> 1:41:29.000 actually been better than some not punishing people who were trafficked, right, 1:41:29.200 --> 1:41:31.360 So I was reading that at one point she asked 1:41:31.400 --> 1:41:35.559 prosecutors not to use the term teenage prostitute because like, 1:41:35.720 --> 1:41:38.680 that's not really a thing. What we're seeing there is 1:41:38.680 --> 1:41:40.800 somebody who is being trafficked, right, or somebody who has 1:41:40.840 --> 1:41:45.120 been victimized to taken advantage of manipulated, and seeing them 1:41:45.160 --> 1:41:48.920 as perpetrators is fundamentally missing the fucking problem. And this 1:41:49.040 --> 1:41:51.160 is what the legal system does far too often, right, 1:41:51.280 --> 1:41:53.960 is it goes after the people who are the vactims, 1:41:54.000 --> 1:41:58.120 not the criminals. She twice brought criminal charges against backpage 1:41:58.160 --> 1:42:00.000 dot Com, which is a website. I guess what peop 1:42:00.000 --> 1:42:04.000 book and like find escorts. I'm not familiar with these things, 1:42:04.680 --> 1:42:07.320 but I know that some sex workers were opposed to 1:42:07.320 --> 1:42:09.599 that because they felt it drove them kind of onto 1:42:09.640 --> 1:42:13.120 more underground platforms, which which were even more risky to them. 1:42:13.320 --> 1:42:16.880 But obviously if people were also being trafficked on this platform, 1:42:17.160 --> 1:42:20.599 So like her record, I guess it is somewhat mixed. 1:42:21.000 --> 1:42:24.120 You know what else is somewhat mixed? Shereen what James, 1:42:24.360 --> 1:42:26.759 it's the products and services that we get to support 1:42:26.760 --> 1:42:29.519 this show. You know, sometimes it's the cops. Sometimes it's 1:42:29.600 --> 1:42:32.040 terrible coffee, sometimes it's gold. You never know what you're 1:42:32.040 --> 1:42:44.720 going to get. Ooh, we are backed, and we are 1:42:44.760 --> 1:42:48.200 back to one of Donald Trump's oldest chestnutes, and that 1:42:48.240 --> 1:42:51.040 would be his stupid wall right that he wants to build. 1:42:51.760 --> 1:42:55.000 We created the most secure border in US history, by far, 1:42:55.600 --> 1:42:59.400 dealing a major blow to the cartels and traffickers. We 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:03.720 built hundreds of miles of war, We renovated hundreds of 1:43:03.840 --> 1:43:04.719 miles of war. 1:43:05.200 --> 1:43:06.880 We never had anything like it. 1:43:07.160 --> 1:43:09.720 And then I got Mexico free of charge to give 1:43:09.800 --> 1:43:13.200 us twenty eight thousand soldiers to protect us from people 1:43:13.240 --> 1:43:14.960 coming into our country illegally. 1:43:15.840 --> 1:43:17.920 He talks about building hundreds of miles of wall. He 1:43:17.920 --> 1:43:20.479 sets up a couple of times. Right, we've renovated hundreds 1:43:20.479 --> 1:43:23.400 of mile the wall. You know, did they build hundreds that? 1:43:23.479 --> 1:43:27.400 Maybe just technically that they really fudged the numbers. Yeah, 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:30.120 I found a lot of freedom of information requests for that. 1:43:30.640 --> 1:43:33.320 I guess what's more relevant is that Biden also built 1:43:33.320 --> 1:43:36.040 the wall, right, mm hmm, calm, that's not talking about it. 1:43:36.120 --> 1:43:39.800 But as we've documented numerous times, Biden has continued to 1:43:39.840 --> 1:43:42.920 build the wall. He's continued to build the barrier, which 1:43:42.960 --> 1:43:46.200 is a wall. He has repaired other sections of war, 1:43:46.200 --> 1:43:50.920 he has upgraded sections of fence to wall. They're both 1:43:50.960 --> 1:43:53.439 doing this, right. There's maybe Donald Trump would do more 1:43:53.439 --> 1:43:55.960 of it, but sometimes I feel like his general and 1:43:56.000 --> 1:43:59.320 competence might prevent him from doing any more than Biden's. 1:43:59.400 --> 1:44:03.400 Like potent migrant. If they call it deterrents, right, deterrence 1:44:03.439 --> 1:44:06.160 through death, it is probably a better way of phrasing it. 1:44:06.960 --> 1:44:10.040 Trump also talks about a total ban on taxpair dollars 1:44:10.040 --> 1:44:13.040 to give legal aid to undocumented people. Again, I'm not 1:44:13.080 --> 1:44:14.559 sure if he knows what he's talking about. I don't 1:44:14.560 --> 1:44:16.680 know what he's talking about. He might be referring to it. 1:44:16.680 --> 1:44:19.840 We have a program in San Diego County where San 1:44:19.880 --> 1:44:24.320 Diego County pays for some people to defend migrants who 1:44:24.320 --> 1:44:26.679 are detained by ICE, right so they can have access 1:44:26.680 --> 1:44:29.120 to a lawyer. ICE has responded to that by moving 1:44:29.160 --> 1:44:32.280 those people to Texas. Oh that makes sense, Yeah, yeah, 1:44:32.439 --> 1:44:34.639 totally normal. Good, I'm glad we voted for the anti 1:44:34.640 --> 1:44:38.439 fascist guy. Everything's going great, exactly. You can listen to 1:44:38.439 --> 1:44:39.760 my episode about that if you want to know more 1:44:39.800 --> 1:44:42.040 about that. But I don't know if he means like 1:44:42.040 --> 1:44:45.120 they don't get public defenders if they're accused of a crime. Certainly. 1:44:45.360 --> 1:44:47.040 Isn't it just true that he can also just like 1:44:47.160 --> 1:44:49.240 use these trigger words to make people mad. 1:44:49.880 --> 1:44:51.880 Yes, yes, that is what he's doing. 1:44:51.960 --> 1:44:54.160 Yeah, yeah, it's not necessari always has to be base 1:44:54.240 --> 1:44:54.759 in fact. 1:44:55.240 --> 1:44:57.320 No, yeah, that's to be found with Donald Trump. This 1:44:57.360 --> 1:45:01.320 doesn't matter. And then finally, talking of stuff that doesn't 1:45:01.320 --> 1:45:03.960 have to be real, it's absolutely batshit insane idea of 1:45:04.000 --> 1:45:10.760 fucking invading Mexico to kill members of cartels, which that's unhinged. Yeah, 1:45:10.880 --> 1:45:13.840 that is unhinged. That will resolve in more violence, It 1:45:13.840 --> 1:45:16.800 will result in more instability. It will result in more death. 1:45:17.080 --> 1:45:19.280 I think Car'm's pretty much unclear when it comes to 1:45:19.280 --> 1:45:22.559 that one, Like she is not proposing invading Mexico. So 1:45:23.160 --> 1:45:26.320 much of what Donald Trump says is insane and it 1:45:26.320 --> 1:45:29.120 doesn't make sense. So I wanted to look at some 1:45:29.120 --> 1:45:31.760 of the people who kind of lean on Trump, some 1:45:31.840 --> 1:45:33.200 of the people who might be a little bit more 1:45:33.240 --> 1:45:35.840 coherent right when it comes to crafting that policy. Right? 1:45:36.040 --> 1:45:38.840 Could it get Steven Mirror on the podcast sad? But 1:45:39.040 --> 1:45:41.719 we did get these people from the Texas Public Policy 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:45.759 Foundation who Robert and Gare spoke to at the Republican 1:45:45.840 --> 1:45:49.959 National Convention. So here's zem talking about visas and immigration. 1:45:50.720 --> 1:45:52.800 I've tried to hire people from other countries. It takes 1:45:52.840 --> 1:45:56.160 months and months and months to get that done. It 1:45:56.320 --> 1:45:58.320 usually spend a lot of money doing it as well, 1:45:58.720 --> 1:46:02.640 and the system is disincentivized to do that. So you know, 1:46:02.720 --> 1:46:05.160 actually during the last Trump administration, they started looking at like, 1:46:05.320 --> 1:46:09.240 let's reduce the number of visas and have broader categories, right, 1:46:09.280 --> 1:46:10.639 So I think they're trying to get down to about 1:46:10.640 --> 1:46:14.599 seventeen visas, get to more marit based program to fit 1:46:14.640 --> 1:46:17.400 the needs that we have. Make sure that you can 1:46:17.840 --> 1:46:19.920 you know, it's not about like what is the total number, 1:46:19.960 --> 1:46:23.479 But if we are needing labor, we needing people in 1:46:23.479 --> 1:46:26.040 these areas, you can you can kind of like as 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:27.679 a dial, you can turn up and down in certain 1:46:27.720 --> 1:46:30.720 areas on certain visas. And so I think if you 1:46:30.800 --> 1:46:32.880 do have to first like stop the problem, and then 1:46:32.960 --> 1:46:36.160 you also have to make systemic changes that will overhaul 1:46:36.200 --> 1:46:37.920 the system and make a lot easier so that people 1:46:37.920 --> 1:46:39.720 are incentivised to actually do it the right way. 1:46:40.800 --> 1:46:44.360 Yeah. So these people aren't stupid, right, they won't just 1:46:44.479 --> 1:46:47.280 spew hate. Yeah, They're much more competent in the facts. 1:46:48.400 --> 1:46:51.800 So I think what we're seeing here, right is this 1:46:52.280 --> 1:46:55.640 undoubtedly is a way to reduce what they see is 1:46:55.720 --> 1:46:59.080 undesirable migration, which is to say, poor people and brown people. 1:46:59.400 --> 1:47:01.160 You can phrase however you want it, right, But. 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:04.200 I mean, in the Republican's eyes, and maybe a lot 1:47:04.200 --> 1:47:06.960 of people eyes, all migration is undesirable migration. 1:47:07.200 --> 1:47:09.960 I feel like, yeah, well, people will talk to me. 1:47:10.720 --> 1:47:13.559 I'm for those of you who have just listened to me. 1:47:13.600 --> 1:47:15.280 I guess a white person. 1:47:15.200 --> 1:47:17.160 British, You're not white, you're British. 1:47:17.240 --> 1:47:24.160 Yeah, Love, which is more like a kind of translucent 1:47:24.760 --> 1:47:27.960 really you think about it. Yeah, so yeah, I am 1:47:28.000 --> 1:47:30.200 a British person, which is important, I guess because people 1:47:30.240 --> 1:47:31.920 will talk to me about immigration like I'm one of 1:47:31.960 --> 1:47:35.680 the good migrants and they can go fuck themselves. Yeah 1:47:35.720 --> 1:47:39.679 that position, right, that like it's a like implicit white 1:47:39.680 --> 1:47:43.280 people are okay. Yeah, absolutely, that's all that means. 1:47:43.439 --> 1:47:47.280 It's like, oh, yeah, you speak English and you're like me, great, 1:47:47.400 --> 1:47:49.719 come out, come on into my racist country. 1:47:50.360 --> 1:47:53.880 Yeah exactly. Yeah, I'm like funny foreign as opposed to 1:47:53.920 --> 1:47:55.439 like evil foreign. I guess. 1:47:55.760 --> 1:47:58.000 I think it's also just like they don't see you 1:47:58.560 --> 1:48:01.080 and whatever in their mind is a three right like 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:04.480 to I don't know, it makes no sense logically. 1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:07.280 But yeah it does if you understand it's relents of race. 1:48:07.840 --> 1:48:09.880 Yes, yeah, but I mean their perspective makes no. 1:48:09.880 --> 1:48:12.880 Sense to me. Yeah. Same people who are barking about 1:48:13.040 --> 1:48:15.439 my fellow British people being a threat because they happened 1:48:15.479 --> 1:48:18.759 to be Muslim, right or brown or seek in people 1:48:18.840 --> 1:48:21.920 that don't understand it seeks Anonymouslims. So what we actually 1:48:21.960 --> 1:48:24.760 need is more legal pathways. He is correct that the 1:48:24.840 --> 1:48:27.040 visa system needs changing, and we need ways that people 1:48:27.040 --> 1:48:29.280 can apply and come here safely and not have to 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:32.439 be trafficked and not have to take massive risks, right. 1:48:33.080 --> 1:48:35.439 I wanted to see what Robert and Geh had asked 1:48:35.439 --> 1:48:37.840 some about this mass deportation seeing because I've seen some 1:48:37.880 --> 1:48:40.559 people holding like mass importations now sign at the RNC, 1:48:41.080 --> 1:48:44.280 and that's always a good sign that we're not sort 1:48:44.280 --> 1:48:47.240 of sidestepping into fascism. So let's hear what you said 1:48:47.240 --> 1:48:47.519 about that. 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:51.400 Is that plan kind of the mass detention and expulsion 1:48:51.600 --> 1:48:54.280 of undocumented migrants in the US something that you think 1:48:54.439 --> 1:48:56.960 is a good idea, something you support as the Heritage Foundations. 1:48:57.040 --> 1:49:00.479 Yeah, generally, you know, obviously there you got to look 1:49:00.479 --> 1:49:03.360 at implementation, right and how you actually go about doing 1:49:03.439 --> 1:49:07.000 that in the right way. But yeah, absolutely generally. 1:49:07.040 --> 1:49:07.280 Yeah. 1:49:07.320 --> 1:49:09.360 And then what kind of time frame then, because you 1:49:09.439 --> 1:49:11.800 just said this is something you have to like lay 1:49:11.880 --> 1:49:13.880 some groundwork on, and what time frame do you see 1:49:13.880 --> 1:49:15.639 it being feasible to carry out something like that? 1:49:15.840 --> 1:49:17.720 You know, I actually don't have a good answer for that, 1:49:17.800 --> 1:49:21.080 because you have to first get your arms around the problem. 1:49:21.120 --> 1:49:23.640 We don't even know how many people are here, and 1:49:23.880 --> 1:49:26.360 you don't know where they come from, and so it's 1:49:26.360 --> 1:49:29.439 not like you're just trying to deport them all just 1:49:29.680 --> 1:49:32.599 to Mexico or something like that, or the southern border, right, Like, 1:49:32.680 --> 1:49:35.360 you you have to first get your arms around the problem. 1:49:35.400 --> 1:49:37.360 That's the first step, and then I think from there 1:49:37.400 --> 1:49:39.760 you can actually understand figure out what a reasonable time 1:49:39.760 --> 1:49:40.760 frame to do that is. 1:49:42.680 --> 1:49:45.920 Yeah, so this is pretty fucked. Like I should point 1:49:45.960 --> 1:49:49.719 out that the Bilbah Harris is proposing also proposes bumping 1:49:49.760 --> 1:49:52.160 people back to Mexico without the permission of Mexico. 1:49:52.280 --> 1:49:52.400 Right. 1:49:52.479 --> 1:49:55.680 I think so many of these policies just rely on 1:49:55.760 --> 1:49:58.559 Mexico being kind of a sponge for US policy, like, oh, 1:49:58.560 --> 1:50:01.120 they'll they'll be fine, like God forbid Mexico actors a 1:50:01.120 --> 1:50:05.200 sovereign country. But this one seems different. Right. We had 1:50:05.560 --> 1:50:09.800 I feel like, pretty good liberal support on abolish ice 1:50:10.160 --> 1:50:15.200 under Trump that has completely evaporated under Biden. But because 1:50:15.200 --> 1:50:19.160 we solved racism and everything. Yeah, yeah, we fixed it. 1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:21.519 I've forgotten about that. Yeah, that was that was the 1:50:21.560 --> 1:50:25.719 big crunch point. So what this means is taking people 1:50:25.760 --> 1:50:29.439 who have homes, lives, jobs, and families and tearing them 1:50:29.439 --> 1:50:31.559 away from one of those things and tending them back 1:50:31.600 --> 1:50:32.920 to a country that they may not have been to 1:50:32.960 --> 1:50:35.000 in decades, that they may never have been to at all, 1:50:35.600 --> 1:50:40.600 a place where they will undoubtedly face hardship, if not persecution, 1:50:41.000 --> 1:50:43.360 and certainly having lived here having family here will make 1:50:43.400 --> 1:50:47.280 them more likely to be ransomed or blackmailed or any 1:50:47.320 --> 1:50:51.040 of these things that happened to migrants when they're deported. Right, 1:50:52.120 --> 1:50:55.040 this is pretty bleak. Like I guess Harris hasn't advocated 1:50:55.080 --> 1:50:58.400 for this, which seeing the amount of the amount of 1:50:58.400 --> 1:51:00.679 people who fucking respond to my tweets with your going 1:51:00.680 --> 1:51:02.840 home to like I A am a US citizen and 1:51:02.840 --> 1:51:08.799 b fuck you. They yeah all the time, all the time. Yeah, 1:51:09.160 --> 1:51:12.160 it's so funny. Okay, got a life, But yeah, it 1:51:12.200 --> 1:51:15.240 does seem that there is a wing of the Trump 1:51:15.840 --> 1:51:18.040 And I talked to Trump people. I was in the 1:51:18.080 --> 1:51:21.639 mountains this weekend, like I was in Wyoming mincing about 1:51:21.680 --> 1:51:23.559 in the mountains. It's lovely, but in talk to some 1:51:23.600 --> 1:51:26.679 people and I've never really come across anyone who can 1:51:26.800 --> 1:51:29.000 like in the flesh. Maybe it's just because those people 1:51:29.000 --> 1:51:30.640 are so repulsive. I wouldn't talk to them, and it's 1:51:30.640 --> 1:51:34.600 probably quite likely. But advocated for this right, like this 1:51:34.760 --> 1:51:37.880 idea of mass deportations, Like like I said at the 1:51:37.880 --> 1:51:39.920 start of this show, like how does a country get 1:51:39.920 --> 1:51:43.080 into full on fascism? It is this. It is my 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:45.160 taxes and your taxes, and some of the people who 1:51:45.200 --> 1:51:49.639 are listening taxes paying for people who have done nothing wrong, right, 1:51:49.680 --> 1:51:52.120 who have lived here, who haven't done any crimes, who 1:51:52.200 --> 1:51:56.680 haven't hurt anyone, to be at our expense, expelled from 1:51:56.720 --> 1:52:01.000 their home, detained in a private prison, who's own a company, 1:52:01.040 --> 1:52:05.040 make massive donations to politicians, and then flown across the 1:52:05.040 --> 1:52:07.200 world at are expense, and then dumped into a country 1:52:07.200 --> 1:52:10.960 where they no longer belong. And that is as close 1:52:11.000 --> 1:52:14.200 as we get, I think to like someone saying like 1:52:14.240 --> 1:52:17.799 send them to the camps without saying that, like, yeah, look, 1:52:17.960 --> 1:52:20.680 what was the Armenian genocide? The Armenian genocide was a 1:52:20.680 --> 1:52:23.519 mass deportation, right of people forced to walk across the 1:52:23.520 --> 1:52:26.599 desert and die on the way. Like if you don't 1:52:26.640 --> 1:52:30.679 think this Trump ship is fascist, like I really don't 1:52:30.680 --> 1:52:32.280 know what to do. It doesn't matter if it's fascist 1:52:32.360 --> 1:52:35.000 or not, right, Like this is the kind of rhetoric 1:52:35.000 --> 1:52:37.040 that's genocidal. Like I don't want to argue about like 1:52:37.160 --> 1:52:40.439 Robert Preston and like different definitions because that doesn't matter. 1:52:40.560 --> 1:52:46.479 Like this shit is it is genocidal, It is dehumanizing migrants, 1:52:46.520 --> 1:52:48.320 which is been a project of the right wing news 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:52.440 media and increasingly the liberal news media and also the 1:52:52.479 --> 1:52:56.240 Democrat Party now apparently as well as the Republicans. But 1:52:57.120 --> 1:53:01.080 this is a market step to the right. Both of 1:53:01.120 --> 1:53:03.800 these are right. The Overton window has moved so far 1:53:03.920 --> 1:53:06.920 right on migration in the last eight years that it's 1:53:06.920 --> 1:53:10.519 almost an unrecognizable place. And I guess what I when 1:53:10.520 --> 1:53:12.120 I end up by saying what I always say about 1:53:12.120 --> 1:53:15.599 this is like the solution is not within the argument 1:53:15.600 --> 1:53:19.320 about who to vote foreh Like these are state policies. 1:53:20.120 --> 1:53:22.400 These are also often set by the legislature, as we 1:53:22.439 --> 1:53:25.280 saw when Biden's board bill failed, right, and that would 1:53:25.280 --> 1:53:27.280 require a change in the legislature, Like there isn't a 1:53:27.320 --> 1:53:29.960 third party that can get a majority in the legislature 1:53:30.120 --> 1:53:34.320 right now. So the way we fix this is ourselves, 1:53:34.520 --> 1:53:38.320 right like we are seeing in the UK right now, 1:53:38.479 --> 1:53:42.479 like violence towards Muslim people and itance towards masques, violence 1:53:42.520 --> 1:53:45.360 towards Islamic cultural centers and people stepping up to defend 1:53:45.400 --> 1:53:48.360 them like that is the only way we fix this 1:53:48.400 --> 1:53:51.560 is by stepping up and shouldering our responsibility to our communities, 1:53:51.640 --> 1:53:55.519 and people did that in the Trump administration to a degree, 1:53:55.800 --> 1:53:58.120 Like when I'm twenty eighteen, when I was down in 1:53:58.560 --> 1:54:01.120 Tijuana looking after folks who were part of the caravan 1:54:01.200 --> 1:54:03.920 that Trump made a big spectacle in the midterms. People 1:54:03.960 --> 1:54:06.800 showed up, churches, showed up, a soccer mom showed up 1:54:06.840 --> 1:54:09.600 in minivans and helped us, and it was cool. The 1:54:09.600 --> 1:54:12.040 thing was fucked, but like, I respect that we look 1:54:12.080 --> 1:54:15.280 after those people, and that hasn't happened to as much 1:54:15.320 --> 1:54:18.320 of a degree since. And we've had more people than 1:54:18.360 --> 1:54:21.519 we had in twenty eighteen in the open air detention sites. 1:54:22.000 --> 1:54:24.280 And so I guess where I want to end is 1:54:24.320 --> 1:54:29.200 whoever wins, it's still our responsibility to take care of migrants, 1:54:29.200 --> 1:54:32.440 because neither of them is going to And we are 1:54:32.480 --> 1:54:36.880 continuing with policies that will accelerate climate change, We are 1:54:36.880 --> 1:54:40.320 continuing with policies that will impoverish people all over the 1:54:40.360 --> 1:54:45.000 world and enriching people who are already super wealthy, and 1:54:45.040 --> 1:54:48.560 those things will continue to drive migration. We can't change 1:54:48.600 --> 1:54:51.760 those things in an actionable amount of time, but what 1:54:51.840 --> 1:54:54.080 we can do is try our best to meet people 1:54:54.120 --> 1:54:57.280 who come here with Kindness and so yeah, I would 1:54:57.600 --> 1:54:59.760 urge you to do that. I guess if you want 1:54:59.800 --> 1:55:04.360 to volunteer, you can email Altro Lado It's ala Trelado 1:55:04.400 --> 1:55:09.000 dot org. Border Kindness always need your money, borderlind Relief Collective, 1:55:09.000 --> 1:55:12.360 always need your money. And those are always things that 1:55:12.400 --> 1:55:14.320 you can volunteer with or places you can say your 1:55:14.360 --> 1:55:16.760 money if you don't have your time. But you can 1:55:16.800 --> 1:55:19.040 also organize in your own neighborhood. I'm speaking to some 1:55:19.080 --> 1:55:22.760 people today who are organizing in Maryland to take care 1:55:22.800 --> 1:55:25.800 of some Kurdish refugees who I know, like they weren't 1:55:25.800 --> 1:55:28.800 doing anything a year ago, right, they saw a need 1:55:28.880 --> 1:55:30.560 and they saw it being a met and they realized 1:55:30.600 --> 1:55:33.040 that they could meet it, and they've made a huge 1:55:33.040 --> 1:55:36.200 difference to people's lives. So like, wherever you are, there 1:55:36.240 --> 1:55:38.680 are migas in your community and you can do that too. 1:55:52.760 --> 1:55:54.280 Welcome to it could happen here. 1:55:54.360 --> 1:55:58.120 I'm Garrison Davis and today I'm joined with the authors 1:55:58.160 --> 1:56:01.160 Shane Burley and Ben Laubert who have a new book 1:56:01.160 --> 1:56:04.360 out called A Safety through Solidarity, A Radical Guide to 1:56:04.480 --> 1:56:07.960 Fighting Anti Semitism, and Jane reached out to me to 1:56:08.040 --> 1:56:12.560 talk about both the book and a variety of issues 1:56:12.600 --> 1:56:15.960 revolving around this topic. Thank you for coming on, both 1:56:15.960 --> 1:56:16.160 of you. 1:56:16.320 --> 1:56:17.480 Yeah, thanks for having us on. 1:56:17.600 --> 1:56:19.480 Yeah yeah, thanks for having us so. 1:56:19.640 --> 1:56:21.960 A few months ago I put out an episode looking 1:56:22.000 --> 1:56:24.520 at a genuine uptick in anti Semitic incidents that have 1:56:24.520 --> 1:56:28.080 happened in the United States and Europe, and sometimes it 1:56:28.120 --> 1:56:30.240 feels kind of like a tricky thing to talk about. 1:56:30.280 --> 1:56:32.720 In some ways, it's like you're threading a very difficult needle. 1:56:32.760 --> 1:56:34.960 It's like you're caught between a rock and a hard 1:56:35.000 --> 1:56:38.000 place when discussing this topic, because if you point to 1:56:38.040 --> 1:56:40.640 an actual trend that you're seeing showing a genuine spike 1:56:40.680 --> 1:56:43.600 in anti Semitic incidents, there's like a subset of people 1:56:43.640 --> 1:56:46.120 who are very focused on the genocide in Gaza, very 1:56:46.200 --> 1:56:49.400 rightly so, but they might push back since claims of 1:56:49.400 --> 1:56:52.400 anti Semitism have been so conflated with any display of 1:56:52.400 --> 1:56:55.440 anti Zionist politics, or even worse, they might even question, 1:56:55.840 --> 1:56:57.640 why are you talking about this when there's this other 1:56:57.840 --> 1:57:01.520 horrible thing going on right the actual genocide in Gaza. Now, 1:57:01.560 --> 1:57:04.600 I think, meanwhile, if you avoid this as a lesser 1:57:04.720 --> 1:57:06.720 or a non issue, if if you don't talk about 1:57:06.760 --> 1:57:09.720 these things. I would argue that actually strengthens the Zionist 1:57:09.760 --> 1:57:13.160 political project of tying Jewish safety solely to the state 1:57:13.240 --> 1:57:16.120 of Israel. And in some ways, I think ignoring this 1:57:16.320 --> 1:57:19.920 entire issue legitimizes a degree of criticisms that are being 1:57:20.000 --> 1:57:22.880 leveled against these massive protests and calls for a ceasefire 1:57:23.200 --> 1:57:26.120 and justice in Palestine. So, I guess how long have 1:57:26.200 --> 1:57:28.480 you been putting together this book and how much did 1:57:28.520 --> 1:57:31.080 the war in Gaza this past year kind of change 1:57:31.080 --> 1:57:32.760 the scope of it as you were writing this? 1:57:33.520 --> 1:57:36.280 Yeah, I mean we started I think Ben and I 1:57:36.320 --> 1:57:38.680 started talking about this and in the twenty nineteen beginning 1:57:38.720 --> 1:57:40.920 of twenty twenty, so it's a totally It was a 1:57:40.920 --> 1:57:43.760 totally different context when we started working on the book, 1:57:44.520 --> 1:57:46.840 and what we had been wanting was actually to sort 1:57:46.880 --> 1:57:49.760 of like drive a wedge into what you're talking about here, 1:57:49.760 --> 1:57:52.760 which is like that there isn't really good discourse on 1:57:52.800 --> 1:57:55.440 what anti Semitism actually is that takes it seriously, that 1:57:55.600 --> 1:57:59.360 doesn't just kind of deflect and project onto anti Zionism. 1:57:59.520 --> 1:58:02.240 Since Ben and then I both come from like a 1:58:02.360 --> 1:58:05.600 history of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement and me with 1:58:05.960 --> 1:58:08.280 Students for Justice Palestine on campus, then with the Jewish 1:58:08.320 --> 1:58:12.320 Voice for Peace. So we had seemed to basically firsthand 1:58:12.400 --> 1:58:16.400 how accusations of anti semitism basically leveled just constantly at 1:58:16.400 --> 1:58:20.360 Palastine solidarity protesters, and then also in research and covering 1:58:20.440 --> 1:58:23.480 the far right, seeing obviously the growth of anti Semitism 1:58:23.800 --> 1:58:27.480 in white nationalism, both in the US and internationally, and 1:58:27.520 --> 1:58:29.920 that only increased increased over time. So we wanted to 1:58:29.960 --> 1:58:33.520 work on something that took that seriously and also sort 1:58:33.520 --> 1:58:36.160 of revive different traditions from the left that talk about 1:58:36.160 --> 1:58:38.920 anti semitism, whether it's anti fascism or different kind of 1:58:38.920 --> 1:58:41.520 Marxist trends or the Jewish left kind of bring it 1:58:41.520 --> 1:58:43.360 to one place, talk to other folks who are also 1:58:43.400 --> 1:58:46.520 taking it seriously, and weave that together. All of that 1:58:46.920 --> 1:58:49.920 is different. And before October seventh, because we were turning 1:58:49.960 --> 1:58:52.320 in the draft of a book like a matter of 1:58:52.440 --> 1:58:55.640 days after October seventh happened, Oh wow. We went and 1:58:55.640 --> 1:58:57.280 talked to the publisher and we're like, well, the whole 1:58:57.280 --> 1:58:59.120 world just changed. I mean, we have to we have 1:58:59.160 --> 1:59:01.440 to make changes the beat it. And so we've made 1:59:01.440 --> 1:59:03.680 some and basically like address some questions there and I 1:59:03.720 --> 1:59:07.320 think you can kind of see the in the conclusion 1:59:07.320 --> 1:59:08.960 of like the very end of the book kind of 1:59:08.960 --> 1:59:12.920 where we cut it off in November December area and 1:59:12.960 --> 1:59:15.280 sort of have acknowledge that things are different here. But 1:59:15.360 --> 1:59:17.680 I think that there's also bigger questions that we're talking 1:59:17.680 --> 1:59:20.440 about now that like we're doing interviews and writing articles 1:59:20.440 --> 1:59:22.800 and stuff afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot 1:59:22.840 --> 1:59:25.680 of this really I think one thing that's important is 1:59:25.720 --> 1:59:29.200 that because we make very clear, like very incredibly clear, 1:59:29.280 --> 1:59:32.400 the anti Zionism not the same as anti semitism, in 1:59:32.400 --> 1:59:34.840 a way, that conversation is the same as before, because 1:59:34.840 --> 1:59:37.320 we're actually talking about where real anti Semitism lives. And 1:59:37.360 --> 1:59:39.520 if you look at the way that this course is now, 1:59:39.640 --> 1:59:42.960 particularly from groups like the Defamation League, is it's basically 1:59:42.960 --> 1:59:47.200 built entirely around, you know, attacking college protests, right, attacking 1:59:47.240 --> 1:59:51.000 these mass anti genocide demonstrations, right. And since that's so 1:59:51.120 --> 1:59:54.160 foundationally different than how we understand anti semitism, there's a 1:59:54.160 --> 1:59:56.960 way in which, like the conversation that has the book 1:59:57.000 --> 1:59:58.520 is sort of the same. And what do you think 1:59:58.520 --> 1:59:59.240 about this, Ben. 1:59:59.360 --> 2:00:01.360 Yeah, I know, I mean I agree that it really 2:00:01.400 --> 2:00:04.240 hasn't changed that much. Even though it's just a lot 2:00:04.960 --> 2:00:07.760 bigger and more prominent, and the forces that are trying 2:00:07.800 --> 2:00:11.680 to attack the Movement for Justice and past that are stronger. 2:00:11.840 --> 2:00:15.400 They're trying to pass legislation taking away our free speech rights. 2:00:15.400 --> 2:00:18.560 They're trying to restrict academic freedom, They're trying to go 2:00:18.640 --> 2:00:21.200 after the irs status. 2:00:20.160 --> 2:00:24.240 Of justice organizations. So the stakes are really high. 2:00:24.280 --> 2:00:27.720 But I think the intervention that we've always been wanting 2:00:27.760 --> 2:00:31.480 to make is to really put the conversation backward along 2:00:32.160 --> 2:00:35.160 on the rise of the far right, on the rise 2:00:35.200 --> 2:00:38.400 of white Christian nationalism. Right anti Semitism is part of 2:00:39.080 --> 2:00:43.200 the right wing worldview. It's just like the other systems 2:00:43.240 --> 2:00:48.720 of oppression, like anti blackness, anti LGBTQ, bigotry, Islamophobia, anti 2:00:48.760 --> 2:00:53.720 immigrant xenophobia, Anti Semitism is deeply connected. Right, these George 2:00:53.720 --> 2:00:58.760 Soros conspiracies are being used by authoritarian leaders like Donald 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:01.960 Trump and JB. Evans and the rest of them to 2:01:02.080 --> 2:01:05.680 build up the MAGA base and to attack the foundations 2:01:06.040 --> 2:01:09.040 of our multi racial democracy. And we've seen it have 2:01:09.160 --> 2:01:11.960 deadly results for Jews and for other groups. You know, 2:01:12.800 --> 2:01:15.960 white nationalists, you know mass shooters who are motivated by 2:01:16.000 --> 2:01:20.040 anti semic conspiracy theories have attacked synagogues, have attacked Latin 2:01:20.200 --> 2:01:24.400 X communities like black communities, and so yeah, anti Semitism 2:01:24.480 --> 2:01:27.120 is part of that machinery of oppression. And so our 2:01:27.160 --> 2:01:30.560 book tries to reframe the conversation and give Justice Organizer 2:01:30.680 --> 2:01:33.560 a way to take back the conversation away from the right. 2:01:34.120 --> 2:01:35.680 Would what have you be willing to give, like a 2:01:35.680 --> 2:01:38.120 workable definition of anti Semitism, because this is a word 2:01:38.160 --> 2:01:40.520 that's certainly been used a lot, but I think it's 2:01:40.560 --> 2:01:43.960 a word that signifies possibly a lot of different things. 2:01:44.400 --> 2:01:46.480 And I guess what is the definition of anti Semitism 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:48.240 that you are using in your book. 2:01:49.000 --> 2:01:53.080 Yes, so Att, we really see anti Semitism as a 2:01:53.120 --> 2:01:59.320 form of conspiracy theory thinking that developed out of Christianity 2:01:59.360 --> 2:02:03.240 in Christian Europe, and that essentially sees Jews as the 2:02:03.360 --> 2:02:06.760 root cause of evil or the root cause of the 2:02:06.760 --> 2:02:11.360 world's problems, kind of behind the scenes. It trades in 2:02:11.440 --> 2:02:15.800 images of a cabal lurking behind either government or the 2:02:15.880 --> 2:02:17.720 media or the economy. 2:02:18.000 --> 2:02:20.120 And these conspiracy theories are. 2:02:20.080 --> 2:02:26.240 Core to an authoritarian and nationalists worldview that mobilize, you know, 2:02:26.320 --> 2:02:31.880 millions really away from examining and confronting the root causes 2:02:31.880 --> 2:02:35.560 of oppression and convinces them to chase you kind of 2:02:35.560 --> 2:02:37.320 illusory shadows instead. 2:02:37.760 --> 2:02:39.480 Why do we have like a harder time kind of 2:02:39.520 --> 2:02:42.600 pinning down this term? You know, I think people have 2:02:42.640 --> 2:02:45.640 a general idea and a pretty easy way to like see, like, 2:02:45.680 --> 2:02:47.560 you know, what's like is homophobic? 2:02:47.640 --> 2:02:47.800 Right? 2:02:47.880 --> 2:02:48.680 What's racist? 2:02:49.080 --> 2:02:51.600 There's a few points in your book that you talk about, 2:02:51.640 --> 2:02:55.440 you know, instances of people maybe unintentionally spreading anti Semitism 2:02:55.720 --> 2:02:58.760 that if they were instead talking about like Muslims, or 2:02:58.840 --> 2:03:01.120 like trans people, or or like black people, they would 2:03:01.240 --> 2:03:04.320 easily identify as like, oh, this is very clearly a 2:03:04.320 --> 2:03:06.880 form of like xenophobia, and this is very clearly like 2:03:06.960 --> 2:03:09.960 based on some kind of like conspiratorial discrimination. 2:03:10.400 --> 2:03:10.560 Yeah. 2:03:10.640 --> 2:03:12.280 I mean I think there's a few reasons for this, 2:03:12.320 --> 2:03:13.680 and we talk about this in the book. I mean 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:17.240 one of them is that the way the anti Semitism 2:03:17.280 --> 2:03:20.879 has operated is generally a narrative about punching up against 2:03:20.960 --> 2:03:23.920 power versus a lot of narratives of oppression, which are 2:03:23.920 --> 2:03:27.920 basically about how various groups are subhuman or lesser than 2:03:28.080 --> 2:03:31.480 dominant population. That's slightly different with Jews, though that has 2:03:31.520 --> 2:03:34.560 been a component of some pieces of it historically is 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:37.560 basically a narrative that people who feel disempowered then use 2:03:37.640 --> 2:03:39.680 to sort of like reclaim a sort of kind of 2:03:39.680 --> 2:03:41.880 populous energy. And a lot of ways it ends up 2:03:41.920 --> 2:03:45.000 being a place where folks are directed by people in 2:03:45.120 --> 2:03:48.240 power to put their class anger away from the actual 2:03:48.320 --> 2:03:50.560 rule in class. So I think in a way, when 2:03:50.600 --> 2:03:54.879 people see anti semitism, they also recognize that there's legitimate 2:03:54.920 --> 2:03:58.120 class anger or legitimate like disenfranchisement, and I think that's 2:03:58.120 --> 2:04:01.280 actually troubling to sort of want to undermine that feeling 2:04:01.280 --> 2:04:04.600 always necessarily. I think there's also just the complexity of 2:04:04.640 --> 2:04:08.520 Jewish identity that's shifted over time, different populations, different communities, 2:04:08.760 --> 2:04:12.919 different politics, sometimes religious, sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic. 2:04:13.200 --> 2:04:15.280 That can make it confusing. So it's hard to use 2:04:15.360 --> 2:04:18.560 one model for understanding impression than projected onto this And 2:04:18.600 --> 2:04:20.160 so in a lot of ways, you kind of have 2:04:20.240 --> 2:04:24.160 to come at this question distinctly from kind of other 2:04:24.200 --> 2:04:26.760 forms of oppression. That's actually true of most forms of oppression. 2:04:26.800 --> 2:04:29.160 They have a lot of distinctiveness. But I think like 2:04:29.200 --> 2:04:32.240 you have to kind of learn about those contours. And again, 2:04:32.320 --> 2:04:34.240 I think part of it is also that this hasn't 2:04:34.280 --> 2:04:37.040 been a big part of the left conversation in the 2:04:37.120 --> 2:04:39.360 last twenty or thirty years. It is to be more 2:04:39.400 --> 2:04:41.879 frequent that this would be like you know, maybe trainings 2:04:41.880 --> 2:04:44.000 and left spaces where people would talk about that. It 2:04:44.120 --> 2:04:46.520 just simply hasn't been the case that much recently, and 2:04:46.520 --> 2:04:50.320 so I think there's actually a big lack of just 2:04:50.400 --> 2:04:52.520 understanding of how to notice those things and to talk 2:04:52.560 --> 2:04:55.520 about them. And then I think weaponization has become such 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:58.360 it's not just such an overwhelming part of it. It's 2:04:58.360 --> 2:05:02.080 actually the dominating converse station on antisemitism, particularly in the US. 2:05:02.120 --> 2:05:05.040 So when you hear about anti semitism, it's overwhelmingly going 2:05:05.040 --> 2:05:06.800 to be directed by the center or the right, or 2:05:06.800 --> 2:05:11.240 for institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. And again, people 2:05:11.240 --> 2:05:13.200 get heartened skin to that because they don't want to 2:05:13.240 --> 2:05:14.960 like give an inch on those sorts of things, and 2:05:14.960 --> 2:05:17.400 I totally understand why, and so I think that also 2:05:17.440 --> 2:05:21.320 has created that boundary of where examination would normally take place. 2:05:21.600 --> 2:05:24.560 It is interesting looking at like how much the right 2:05:24.600 --> 2:05:27.840 wing has been able to weaponize claims of anti semitism 2:05:28.040 --> 2:05:30.240 against the left. I think the term that you use 2:05:30.280 --> 2:05:33.840 in the book is selective outrage on anti semitism, because 2:05:33.920 --> 2:05:36.520 I mean, I was just at the RNC and you're 2:05:36.520 --> 2:05:40.440 hearing Marjorie Taylor Green talk about how there's like antisemitic 2:05:40.480 --> 2:05:43.360 protests happening around the country, and you're like, wait a minute, 2:05:43.600 --> 2:05:46.320 you're the Jewish space laser person, what are you talking about? 2:05:47.640 --> 2:05:50.960 And I think it was DeSantis who just called all 2:05:51.080 --> 2:05:54.640 university protesters hamas, right, not saying that they're like Amas, 2:05:54.680 --> 2:05:57.600 but just literally saying that these people are like are Hamas, 2:05:57.600 --> 2:06:02.200 Like Hamas took over university tests. And meanwhile, you would 2:06:02.200 --> 2:06:05.840 be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about, 2:06:05.880 --> 2:06:10.280 you know, this strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong 2:06:10.320 --> 2:06:13.640 degree of anti Semitic people either involved in their own 2:06:13.680 --> 2:06:16.680 campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a 2:06:16.760 --> 2:06:21.440 year ago where DeSantis's campaign staff released a video of 2:06:21.800 --> 2:06:24.040 him with the sonnet rat It's like com on, buddy. 2:06:24.440 --> 2:06:26.720 So it is interesting how how they've been able to 2:06:26.760 --> 2:06:30.520 try to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring like the 2:06:30.800 --> 2:06:34.400 structural anti semitism like baked into this new wave of 2:06:34.480 --> 2:06:36.720 nationalist politics that we're seeing in the United States. 2:06:37.080 --> 2:06:39.840 Yeah, no, it's totally the example of marginit Tayla Green 2:06:39.920 --> 2:06:42.200 is so striking. I mean, she, I believe, in the 2:06:42.280 --> 2:06:47.040 same day once she called the protesters on college campuses 2:06:47.080 --> 2:06:49.320 of anti Semitic and then she said that they were 2:06:49.320 --> 2:06:51.720 funded by George Soros, right, so yeah, yeah, yeah, And 2:06:51.720 --> 2:06:54.240 she's using them both for the same purpose. And it's 2:06:54.280 --> 2:06:56.680 not only DeSantis, and they're right, I mean in Jonathan 2:06:56.720 --> 2:06:59.440 Green Black ahead of thedl I remember, like a few 2:06:59.440 --> 2:07:03.840 months ago, said that students of college campuses were Iranian proxies. 2:07:04.120 --> 2:07:08.280 And when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military 2:07:08.400 --> 2:07:13.520 counterinsurgency against protesters. It's just it really puts Jews in danger, 2:07:13.920 --> 2:07:17.880 you know, not to mention Palestinians and the Muslims, you know, 2:07:17.920 --> 2:07:22.880 basically all groups, right, because sure there's occasionally a stray 2:07:22.920 --> 2:07:26.400 anti Semitic comment that shows up at protests, because anti 2:07:26.400 --> 2:07:30.440 Semitism is part of our world. There's anti blackness, injustice movements, 2:07:30.720 --> 2:07:34.680 antiology gutsppistry, and anti Semitism, I'm sure, but that's no 2:07:34.760 --> 2:07:38.120 comparison to when you have like Elon Musk, the richest 2:07:38.120 --> 2:07:40.200 person in the world, one of the most powerful people 2:07:40.200 --> 2:07:43.080 in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in patriot 2:07:43.080 --> 2:07:46.280 against whites. Right, there's no comparisons in terms of power 2:07:46.320 --> 2:07:49.360 and threat level, So it's really making Jews less. 2:07:49.160 --> 2:07:51.320 Say yeah, And we also talk about the fact that 2:07:51.560 --> 2:07:55.680 because anti Semitic conspiracy theories are such a foundational part 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:58.400 of the rights form of populism, it's sort of how 2:07:58.440 --> 2:08:02.680 they explains anger and energy from the base that there's 2:08:02.720 --> 2:08:04.720 really no way to detach it, and so it ends 2:08:04.760 --> 2:08:07.040 up being this foundational piece that even when they talk 2:08:07.080 --> 2:08:10.480 about Israel consistently, the way that they've built a connection 2:08:10.600 --> 2:08:13.000 with their base is by trumping up towards Soros or 2:08:13.040 --> 2:08:16.400 Rothschild's conspiracy theories or basically presenting kind of us in 2:08:16.520 --> 2:08:20.080 them populous narrative around theories about globalists and things like that. 2:08:20.160 --> 2:08:23.240 So there's really no comparison that we're talking about anti 2:08:23.200 --> 2:08:25.440 simpatism when it shows up on the left versus the 2:08:25.560 --> 2:08:28.560 really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right. 2:08:29.280 --> 2:08:31.200 And like Ben was saying, right now, we have a 2:08:31.240 --> 2:08:34.560 situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of 2:08:34.640 --> 2:08:37.839 Israel and using that as their evidence of support for Jews, 2:08:37.840 --> 2:08:42.120 and then pushing great replacement theory claims which are inherently 2:08:42.120 --> 2:08:45.440 anti Semitic on the one hand, or really kind of 2:08:45.520 --> 2:08:48.840 mobilizing Jews in their rhetoric for their own kind of 2:08:48.840 --> 2:08:51.320 geopolitical aims, which again is not based out of like 2:08:51.320 --> 2:08:53.880 a deeply held love for Jews. It's either built on 2:08:54.040 --> 2:08:57.680 sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just simply an 2:08:57.720 --> 2:09:00.960 opportunistic use of this might already grew up to sort 2:09:00.960 --> 2:09:04.480 of push their other political values, which itself is kind 2:09:04.480 --> 2:09:07.360 of a deeply held anti Semitic way of treating the 2:09:07.400 --> 2:09:10.080 Jewish community. And so when we're looking at this, we 2:09:10.160 --> 2:09:13.560 can't let the rhetoric that's become the dominate actually stand 2:09:13.680 --> 2:09:16.520 for how we understand anti Semitism because it's been so 2:09:16.560 --> 2:09:17.640 politically motivated. 2:09:18.000 --> 2:09:20.800 Yeah, I mean, as a researcher has it has been 2:09:20.960 --> 2:09:23.840 quite frustrating because I've used to, you know, and a 2:09:23.840 --> 2:09:25.760 lot of people used to be able to rely on 2:09:25.800 --> 2:09:29.480 some degree on like data aggorates like the ADL and 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:32.760 putting together like lists of incidents, like maps. And as 2:09:32.760 --> 2:09:35.640 I was putting together my piece looking at this uptic 2:09:35.680 --> 2:09:38.360 and anti Semitism a few months ago, I was, you know, 2:09:38.560 --> 2:09:42.040 looking through this ADL map and the amount of like 2:09:42.160 --> 2:09:47.440 equivocation between just a standard pro Palestine protest protest that 2:09:47.520 --> 2:09:49.840 I was present at, and I was like, this was 2:09:50.120 --> 2:09:53.920 a Jewish led protest, and having that be equivocated with 2:09:54.120 --> 2:09:57.720 acts of like actual like neo Nazi terrorism as well 2:09:57.720 --> 2:10:00.840 as acts of like genuine anti semitism from people on 2:10:00.880 --> 2:10:04.280 the left. Basically it's resulting in like data poisoning, which 2:10:04.280 --> 2:10:06.520 makes it really hard to actually unpack some of these 2:10:06.560 --> 2:10:09.440 like larger issues that are that are facing both like 2:10:09.520 --> 2:10:13.600 Jewish people, people who are very concerned about Palestine and 2:10:13.640 --> 2:10:15.480 people who take like the threat of like you know, 2:10:15.640 --> 2:10:17.480 you know, far right nationalism quite seriously. 2:10:17.800 --> 2:10:21.040 Yeah, I went through all of the ADLs twenty twenty 2:10:21.040 --> 2:10:24.120 three anti semitism data with like in this project with 2:10:24.160 --> 2:10:27.360 Jewish currents, and the reality is is that the standard 2:10:27.440 --> 2:10:31.280 they use on sort of like left oriented Palestine protests 2:10:31.760 --> 2:10:35.640 is to have almost any measure of support for Palestinians 2:10:35.680 --> 2:10:38.320 or any kind of global call for justice in Palestine 2:10:38.360 --> 2:10:41.560 that is de facto anti semitism, And like you said, 2:10:41.600 --> 2:10:44.680 it then overwhelms the data of sort of shuts out 2:10:44.800 --> 2:10:47.560 other things. And the way that they even set up 2:10:47.600 --> 2:10:50.960 the reporting system just privileges those kind of protests, so 2:10:51.000 --> 2:10:54.000 people it teaches, for example, they'll partner with the organizations 2:10:54.000 --> 2:10:56.480 and show people how to report, and so they'll end 2:10:56.520 --> 2:11:00.480 up mass reporting these protest events and then underreporting white 2:11:00.560 --> 2:11:03.440 nationalist incidents or like violent incidents. So what you end 2:11:03.520 --> 2:11:06.720 up seeing in their data is that they've actually undercoded 2:11:06.800 --> 2:11:09.280 white nationalist events because of the way that they kind 2:11:09.280 --> 2:11:11.920 of set up the data, and they don't really track 2:11:12.040 --> 2:11:15.880 things like housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, and extews. Those kind 2:11:15.920 --> 2:11:17.760 of things really don't fit into their model. So what 2:11:17.800 --> 2:11:20.320 you end up with is this kind of map that 2:11:20.480 --> 2:11:22.880 just privileges people saying from the River to the Sea 2:11:23.040 --> 2:11:26.840 is like this inherently anti Semitic meme, and then undercounts 2:11:26.880 --> 2:11:30.080 like what often Jews will report as what makes them 2:11:30.080 --> 2:11:33.560 feeling unsafe, comments of work, or actual pressures when buying homes, 2:11:33.600 --> 2:11:36.160 things like that, like that doesn't really show up. You've 2:11:36.200 --> 2:11:38.640 experiences of Jews in prison, those don't show up. So 2:11:38.800 --> 2:11:41.400 you end up with this really skewed image on what 2:11:41.440 --> 2:11:44.640 it is, where you assume that the left is overwhelming 2:11:44.720 --> 2:11:47.360 the responsible party, and then it actually in visualizes a 2:11:47.440 --> 2:11:51.000 pretty growing force on the right, and even institutionally just 2:11:51.000 --> 2:11:54.760 like in structures of kind of like American culture. So 2:11:54.800 --> 2:11:56.880 it's really hard then to say, like, well, how do 2:11:56.960 --> 2:12:00.600 I know what's actually happening here? The adail's the largest organization. 2:12:00.720 --> 2:12:04.200 Every organization then uses their data where am I going? 2:12:04.360 --> 2:12:06.760 It leads you in a really big kind of a 2:12:06.800 --> 2:12:08.720 gap in how to understand what's happening. So we can 2:12:08.760 --> 2:12:11.000 look at pretty clear evidence that there's a rise in 2:12:11.000 --> 2:12:14.040 anti Semitism by looking at things like street attacks or 2:12:14.080 --> 2:12:15.800 by looking at the rhetoric on the right, but it's 2:12:15.880 --> 2:12:17.560 hard to get like a clear picture of it because 2:12:17.600 --> 2:12:20.120 every organization is that's oriented looking at the left. 2:12:20.760 --> 2:12:22.520 Like I was just going to say, like this goes 2:12:22.880 --> 2:12:25.200 way back to the ADL. Like you know, in our book, 2:12:25.240 --> 2:12:27.880 we talk about how even in the nineteen seventies and 2:12:27.920 --> 2:12:30.280 the eighties, the eight I was like spying on left 2:12:30.280 --> 2:12:34.760 wing activists as part of their pivot towards seeing the 2:12:34.800 --> 2:12:37.760 most important side of anti Semitism on what they call 2:12:37.800 --> 2:12:40.879 the radical left right. In the nineteen seventies, as global 2:12:40.880 --> 2:12:45.000 criticism of Israel's occupation mounted after the nineteen sixty seven 2:12:45.200 --> 2:12:47.960 you know, six Day War Group sixty, ADL look really 2:12:48.000 --> 2:12:51.280 pivoted further from whatever original mission they may have had 2:12:51.280 --> 2:12:55.880 about like genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming like Israel 2:12:55.920 --> 2:12:59.200 defense organizations, and so in the seventies and eighties, like 2:12:59.240 --> 2:13:02.400 you saw them spuying on anti apart side activists, You 2:13:02.400 --> 2:13:05.920 saw them attacking Arab American you know, professors at universities. 2:13:06.240 --> 2:13:09.480 You saw them spying on acta even left than Jewish 2:13:09.520 --> 2:13:12.560 groups like New Jewish Agenda, you know. And so it's 2:13:12.600 --> 2:13:15.640 not only Jonathan Greenblatt, It's not only since October seventh. 2:13:16.000 --> 2:13:18.240 The d L has been playing this role for a 2:13:18.240 --> 2:13:21.600 long time, along with a whole lot of Christian Zionists 2:13:21.920 --> 2:13:25.120 and both sides of the US political establishment and the 2:13:25.200 --> 2:13:27.440 other career is setting like the stakes are extremely high. 2:13:27.640 --> 2:13:31.400 The right and the center are trying to legislate their 2:13:31.440 --> 2:13:35.200 definition of anti Semitism, to destroy free speech and to 2:13:35.280 --> 2:13:36.640 protect his real's genocide. 2:13:36.760 --> 2:13:38.920 So the stakes are very high about this right now. 2:13:49.000 --> 2:13:52.720 I think one of the most troubling notions about how 2:13:52.760 --> 2:13:55.080 those groups like the ADL and others that are kind 2:13:55.120 --> 2:13:58.120 of like like you said, like logging for legislation and 2:13:58.200 --> 2:14:02.760 trying to encourage like extreme crews on human rights protests 2:14:02.880 --> 2:14:06.440 and antigeness hide protests, is that this is also like 2:14:06.520 --> 2:14:09.160 materially harms a whole bunch of Jewish people who are 2:14:09.520 --> 2:14:13.040 involved in these protests and in organizing. You're trying to 2:14:13.040 --> 2:14:17.040 get the FBI to investigate Jewish people who are protesting 2:14:17.080 --> 2:14:19.880 against the genocide. And we saw this with the with 2:14:19.920 --> 2:14:23.120 the campus university protests. You saw this, you know, especially 2:14:23.200 --> 2:14:25.680 at Columbia of like a lot of a lot of 2:14:25.680 --> 2:14:28.720 these kids are Jewish people who are heavily involved in 2:14:28.760 --> 2:14:32.680 these protests and in calls to do a very extreme 2:14:32.760 --> 2:14:36.200 crackdown and investigations, It's hard to see how that's not 2:14:36.280 --> 2:14:40.360 just like calling for for our government to like further 2:14:40.480 --> 2:14:43.680 oppressed these Jewish people who don't like agree with one 2:14:43.800 --> 2:14:45.160 side's opinion on something. 2:14:45.760 --> 2:14:48.080 Yeah, yeah, you see it. You know, in the most 2:14:48.200 --> 2:14:51.480 kind of ironic twist of history. 2:14:52.000 --> 2:14:54.800 In Germany, where you know, the state was once a 2:14:54.880 --> 2:14:58.240 Nazi state, is enforcing some of the most brutal crackdowns 2:14:58.280 --> 2:15:01.680 on the poust on solidarity a speech, and Jews are 2:15:01.720 --> 2:15:05.640 disproportionately represented among the crackdown there. And so you have 2:15:06.080 --> 2:15:09.240 you know, German police pulling people with pipos and arresting them, 2:15:09.440 --> 2:15:11.840 you know, shutting down events with Jewish speakers. Right, So 2:15:11.880 --> 2:15:15.720 it's it's really like literally policing Jewish thought, right Like, 2:15:16.000 --> 2:15:20.480 we know, there's over a century of Jewish opposition to 2:15:20.680 --> 2:15:23.880 Zionism and Jewish solidarity with Palestinians, and from the very 2:15:23.880 --> 2:15:27.240 beginnings of the Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:29.600 movement in Christian Europe by the way, you know, and 2:15:29.800 --> 2:15:33.240 we've always had long traditions of Jews who have resisted it. 2:15:33.280 --> 2:15:37.320 And so when the state is legislating saying only like 2:15:37.360 --> 2:15:41.880 a certain expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also 2:15:41.960 --> 2:15:43.440 anti Semitism, right like. 2:15:43.880 --> 2:15:46.480 And we see it, you know, not only from Trump, right. 2:15:46.560 --> 2:15:49.520 You know, Trump will always say, oh, Jews who are democrats, 2:15:49.600 --> 2:15:53.160 Jews who are quote unquote disloyal to Israel are problematic. 2:15:53.360 --> 2:15:55.280 You also see it from Biden who says, you know, 2:15:55.320 --> 2:15:58.040 without Israel, there's not a Jew in the world who's safe. 2:15:58.160 --> 2:15:58.360 Right. 2:15:58.440 --> 2:16:01.520 So I think, you know, Jews who descend on Israel 2:16:01.800 --> 2:16:04.960 are rapidly becoming enemies in a way of the right, 2:16:05.080 --> 2:16:06.960 you know, and of forces align with it, right, And 2:16:07.000 --> 2:16:09.720 I think that's an aspect of of anti Semitism that's 2:16:09.760 --> 2:16:11.040 not talked about enough today. 2:16:11.680 --> 2:16:14.160 Yeah, and there's a lot of examples of this too. 2:16:14.360 --> 2:16:17.920 During the Labor Party controversy around Corbin and anti Semitism, 2:16:18.080 --> 2:16:21.680 it was Jewish members who were overwhelmingly expelled from the party. 2:16:21.720 --> 2:16:24.240 I think it's almost like a dozen times more likely 2:16:24.280 --> 2:16:26.720 to face kind of consequences there, right, So like those 2:16:26.800 --> 2:16:29.160 ended up being the centerpiece of it. But I think 2:16:29.200 --> 2:16:31.400 even when you when you broaden out, this ends up 2:16:31.440 --> 2:16:33.959 being the case. And we kind of talked about this 2:16:34.000 --> 2:16:36.720 as like a good Jew bad Jew distinction, where like 2:16:36.760 --> 2:16:40.160 anti Semitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of 2:16:40.160 --> 2:16:41.960 the culture decides as a bad Jew or whatever the 2:16:42.080 --> 2:16:44.400 organization's decides, it's the bad version of a Jew, the 2:16:44.480 --> 2:16:46.119 kind of Jew that they don't want to actually deal with. 2:16:46.840 --> 2:16:50.720 And this happens in this pro Israel consensus whereby the 2:16:50.879 --> 2:16:54.760 khu Nyahu, basically the far By coalition running Israel right now, 2:16:55.000 --> 2:16:58.200 builds alliances that they need around the world with far 2:16:58.200 --> 2:17:01.560 Bright parties and Hungary in South Asia, Indian with the 2:17:01.600 --> 2:17:05.039 Hindian Nationalism, with other places, and then those movements are 2:17:05.080 --> 2:17:09.440 pretty explicitly anti Semitic, therefore making Jews in various countries 2:17:09.480 --> 2:17:12.200 around the diaspora less and less safe, right, and so 2:17:12.320 --> 2:17:15.400 this sort of model of making Israel the bottom line 2:17:15.600 --> 2:17:18.600 on defending against anti Semitism is one that strengthened the right, 2:17:19.040 --> 2:17:22.680 helped to build up Christian nationalism domestically, and then that 2:17:22.720 --> 2:17:25.920 creates this kind of general culture of unsafety for Jews 2:17:25.959 --> 2:17:28.000 where the only Jewish voices that are then held up 2:17:28.040 --> 2:17:31.600 are the ones that justify Christian nationalism on the one hand, 2:17:31.680 --> 2:17:34.760 like you'll see at the National Conservatism Conference, or ones 2:17:34.840 --> 2:17:37.600 who are so aggressively pro Israel that they're totally willing 2:17:37.640 --> 2:17:40.440 to partner with Christian science groups or the far right 2:17:40.480 --> 2:17:43.959 wing of the Republican Party or national conservative parties in Europe. 2:17:44.080 --> 2:17:46.480 And so this ends up as a situation where like 2:17:46.600 --> 2:17:49.960 a increasing number of Jews, particularly in the US, or 2:17:50.040 --> 2:17:53.120 Jews around the left, which again is still disproportionately Jewish, 2:17:53.320 --> 2:17:56.640 feel increasingly targeted by the political consensus, and at the 2:17:56.640 --> 2:17:59.200 same time, this pro Israel rhetoric ends up being with 2:17:59.240 --> 2:18:02.000 the fact of sure by which anyone's kind of set to. 2:18:02.320 --> 2:18:02.800 Yeah, I did. 2:18:02.840 --> 2:18:04.360 Like there was this part in the book where you 2:18:04.360 --> 2:18:07.240 were talking about the good Jew bad Jew binary, specifically 2:18:07.280 --> 2:18:10.160 on the left, where there's like a minority of Jews 2:18:10.200 --> 2:18:13.080 who identify as anti or non Zionist who are very 2:18:13.120 --> 2:18:17.119 like celebrated, sometimes maybe even in like a tokenizing kind 2:18:17.120 --> 2:18:19.320 of way, while the rest of Jewish people who do 2:18:19.360 --> 2:18:23.560 not identify as such are belittled as unworthy or like untrustworthy, 2:18:23.800 --> 2:18:27.320 where their opinions are dismissed or seen as morally compromised 2:18:27.360 --> 2:18:29.879 on like an inherent level. And this can also be 2:18:30.000 --> 2:18:32.520 coupled with this assumption that like every Jew is a 2:18:32.520 --> 2:18:35.640 secret Zionist until proven otherwise, and you have to like 2:18:35.720 --> 2:18:38.640 get every new Jewish person you meet to like prove 2:18:38.720 --> 2:18:41.320 to you that they're not secretly as Zionist, which is, 2:18:41.480 --> 2:18:42.879 you know, very antisemitic. 2:18:43.200 --> 2:18:44.680 And we also do have this good. 2:18:44.600 --> 2:18:47.920 Jew bad Jew binary mirrored in like an inverted form 2:18:48.040 --> 2:18:51.560 on the right, with Zionist Jews, you know, being seen 2:18:51.600 --> 2:18:55.080 as the good ones, and anti Zionist Jews have their 2:18:55.200 --> 2:18:58.560 like jewishness questioned or are seen as like untrustworthy or 2:18:58.600 --> 2:19:03.000 inherently evil. And I do believe it is worth discussing 2:19:03.520 --> 2:19:06.360 kind of the flip side of this, and I think 2:19:06.560 --> 2:19:09.440 avoiding talking about actual antisemitism on the left I think 2:19:09.840 --> 2:19:13.680 only serves to harm all of us, and because it 2:19:13.760 --> 2:19:15.840 is something that I think is happening, and I think 2:19:15.879 --> 2:19:18.680 should be talked about even if it makes people like uncomfortable. 2:19:19.040 --> 2:19:20.840 And I think it's a it is a mistake to 2:19:21.080 --> 2:19:23.040 assume that just because you're on the left, that you're 2:19:23.040 --> 2:19:27.560 like somehow immune to antisemitic thinking, whether purposeful or not. 2:19:27.680 --> 2:19:29.840 Like like both of you mentioned, like we live in 2:19:29.879 --> 2:19:33.720 a society that has a great degree of structural anti Semitism, 2:19:34.120 --> 2:19:36.320 and a lot of these people, I think, who might 2:19:36.360 --> 2:19:38.680 be attending some of these protests or might just be 2:19:38.680 --> 2:19:41.840 posting online who knows, might not even be intentionally spreading 2:19:41.840 --> 2:19:44.200 anti Semitism, right, but in action, that's kind of what 2:19:44.240 --> 2:19:47.120 they're invoking through like ideas of like you know, the 2:19:47.240 --> 2:19:50.320 Zionist cabal that secretly controls all of the media, all 2:19:50.520 --> 2:19:52.920 all of all of the government. You know, those types 2:19:52.959 --> 2:19:55.560 of things. We're starting to like invoke these like larger 2:19:56.080 --> 2:19:59.720 secretive organizations that are that are pre planning this whole thing. 2:20:00.240 --> 2:20:02.240 And like just to some degree from a lot of 2:20:02.280 --> 2:20:05.120 the discourse that you see, I feel like some people 2:20:05.120 --> 2:20:08.360 think they can just like control f Jews to Zionists, 2:20:09.000 --> 2:20:12.120 and like if you're able to control f Jews to 2:20:12.200 --> 2:20:15.160 Zionists and the sentence still works, that means that you're 2:20:15.160 --> 2:20:18.160 doing it wrong. That means that you're probably approaching this 2:20:18.520 --> 2:20:21.120 from a problematic standpoint. And there's a whole bunch of 2:20:21.120 --> 2:20:23.280 aspects about this sort of thing that you do talk 2:20:23.280 --> 2:20:26.920 about in the book, like, you know, including identifying Judaism 2:20:27.120 --> 2:20:31.680 with Zionism and how that also only hurts all of us, 2:20:32.240 --> 2:20:36.119 including this like weird uptick in like Jewish race science 2:20:36.520 --> 2:20:38.680 that you're starting to see more and more of claiming 2:20:38.680 --> 2:20:42.320 that like all modern Jewish people only come from Europe. 2:20:42.720 --> 2:20:44.600 And it's like there's just a whole bunch of this 2:20:44.640 --> 2:20:46.600 kind of stuff that we're all kind of pushing to 2:20:46.640 --> 2:20:48.560 the side. But I do believe it is like worth 2:20:48.600 --> 2:20:50.760 talking about in some degree because this is going to 2:20:51.320 --> 2:20:54.920 not only harm people who are calling for an end 2:20:54.920 --> 2:20:57.280 to the genocide in Gaza. I think it does like 2:20:57.360 --> 2:21:00.240 strengthen this notion that a lot of this and this 2:21:00.360 --> 2:21:03.199 project is built on, which is saying that we need 2:21:03.680 --> 2:21:06.800 Israel as a way to secure safety for Jewish people 2:21:06.879 --> 2:21:07.600 around the world. 2:21:08.280 --> 2:21:10.879 Yeah, I think we talk about this, you know, we 2:21:10.879 --> 2:21:12.800 have a couple of chapters that talk kind of explicitly 2:21:12.840 --> 2:21:15.200 about this at different points in the history. But I 2:21:15.200 --> 2:21:17.600 think there's a tendency, and I kind of get where 2:21:17.640 --> 2:21:20.560 this comes from. To basically see any ally or any 2:21:20.600 --> 2:21:23.039 kind of voice in support of a movement as like 2:21:23.080 --> 2:21:25.760 a partner, particularly when you're trying to build like mass 2:21:25.840 --> 2:21:29.000 support against something that basically has kind of mass opposition 2:21:29.040 --> 2:21:32.000 on the other side, like liberating Palestine. But what you 2:21:32.040 --> 2:21:35.440 see oftentimes when you see a mooment grow really dramatically, 2:21:35.480 --> 2:21:37.400 really quickly, is that there's just not a kind of 2:21:37.440 --> 2:21:40.840 like common baseline understanding always of that, and conspiracy theories 2:21:40.840 --> 2:21:43.120 are a great way to fill the gap on them. Yeah, 2:21:43.360 --> 2:21:45.640 and that's true of really any movement. It's just that, 2:21:45.720 --> 2:21:49.000 in particular, in this case, we have this long history 2:21:49.000 --> 2:21:52.560 of anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power in particular, 2:21:52.600 --> 2:21:55.240 and then we're talking about sort of like powerful political 2:21:55.280 --> 2:21:58.080 actors on the other and so making clear distinctions is 2:21:58.120 --> 2:22:00.640 just not there necessarily. So, you know, we talked with 2:22:00.680 --> 2:22:03.280 lots of folks that have been sort of litmus tested 2:22:03.400 --> 2:22:06.720 when entering kind of less spaces about Zientism. I talk 2:22:06.800 --> 2:22:09.680 to folks where other organizers ask to see their passport 2:22:09.760 --> 2:22:13.440 before they're allowed to come to media's crazy. It's it's wild, 2:22:13.480 --> 2:22:15.680 and you think in most of the cases people we 2:22:15.840 --> 2:22:18.080 kind of identify that as being kind of wild. We 2:22:18.200 --> 2:22:20.280 make a lot of distinctions. We talk about, like the 2:22:20.320 --> 2:22:23.600 sort of difference between talking about a Israel lobby organization 2:22:23.800 --> 2:22:26.640 like APAC and its power or kind of a vague 2:22:26.640 --> 2:22:30.199 diffuse Israel lobby that you know, control controls Western politics, 2:22:30.200 --> 2:22:30.959 that kind of thing. 2:22:30.920 --> 2:22:34.560 Like a like a this is predeces Israel lobby. 2:22:34.680 --> 2:22:37.480 Exactly exactly, and instead talking about like why would we 2:22:37.600 --> 2:22:40.160 understand Israel is part of kind of a Western imperial 2:22:40.240 --> 2:22:42.680 project rather than the flip side, this kind of small 2:22:42.720 --> 2:22:46.240 country controlling Western foreign policy, that kind of thing, and 2:22:46.320 --> 2:22:48.840 make a lot of those clear distinctions. And again, I 2:22:48.840 --> 2:22:51.760 think it's been sort of suggested like these ideas eanthismenic 2:22:51.800 --> 2:22:54.120 ideas are a part of the culture. And you know, 2:22:54.160 --> 2:22:56.160 I've been around the left long enough to see like 2:22:56.920 --> 2:22:59.840 virulent transphobic ideas show up, to see like queer phobic 2:23:00.200 --> 2:23:02.480 is in general be very very present. There's no reason 2:23:02.480 --> 2:23:05.240 to believe that anti Semitism wouldn't show up here either. 2:23:05.560 --> 2:23:08.200 Where folks are sort of like consumed by anger, what 2:23:08.280 --> 2:23:10.400 people are looking for clear answers, what people are trying 2:23:10.400 --> 2:23:13.200 to identify that And I think the easy answer is 2:23:13.240 --> 2:23:15.120 often to paper over it. And I think what we 2:23:15.160 --> 2:23:17.920 talk about here is that that exactly is what sort 2:23:17.959 --> 2:23:20.720 of pro Israel voices want in this case, is to 2:23:20.920 --> 2:23:23.080 know that the Left isn't good to deal with it, 2:23:23.160 --> 2:23:25.280 and so the alternative to that is to both like 2:23:25.360 --> 2:23:27.560 create like a sense of like how would we confront 2:23:27.959 --> 2:23:31.440 antisemitic institutions and where structural anti semitism comes from? And 2:23:31.480 --> 2:23:33.840 then also how do we deal with that internally? And 2:23:33.879 --> 2:23:35.800 we talk with a bunch of social movements that have 2:23:35.879 --> 2:23:38.400 done that. Right, anti fascists are actually pretty used to 2:23:38.480 --> 2:23:40.800 talking about anti semitism when it shows up on the left. 2:23:40.800 --> 2:23:43.680 That's pretty common. Jewish left has talked about this historically. 2:23:43.680 --> 2:23:46.440 There's other voices, So bringing that back and sort of 2:23:46.480 --> 2:23:48.640 making that a safe place to confront and then then 2:23:48.760 --> 2:23:51.440 figure out then where is it like you know, just 2:23:51.440 --> 2:23:53.200 a bad idea that you deal with and you talk 2:23:53.240 --> 2:23:55.360 about you have like education, and where do you draw 2:23:55.480 --> 2:23:57.720 lines where like you know, this is now not a 2:23:57.760 --> 2:24:00.120 person that's not allowed in or these are voices we 2:24:00.160 --> 2:24:01.800 can't partner with that kind of thing. I think that's 2:24:01.800 --> 2:24:03.440 something people work out on the ground. 2:24:03.720 --> 2:24:06.640 No, and you make a really good comparison in the 2:24:06.680 --> 2:24:11.879 book about how like anti Smdic conspiracy theories inhibit a 2:24:11.879 --> 2:24:15.680 actual understanding of like the mechanisms of capital right, like 2:24:16.480 --> 2:24:20.320 it makes you unable to actually like analyze how capitalism operates. 2:24:20.560 --> 2:24:25.160 And similarly, having like an anti Semitic conspiratorial view of 2:24:25.200 --> 2:24:28.600 like anti Zionism, that also will mask the root cause 2:24:28.640 --> 2:24:32.160 of Palestinian impression by distracting from like the like the 2:24:32.280 --> 2:24:36.400 very like real like geopolitical mechanisms that have caused this 2:24:36.480 --> 2:24:40.039 situation to take place, and distracting from that with like 2:24:40.080 --> 2:24:42.840 these tales of like you describe it as like innate 2:24:42.959 --> 2:24:46.160 Jewish wickedness or a global Zionist power. And I think 2:24:46.160 --> 2:24:49.320 that's a really good understanding because people often, like I think, 2:24:49.520 --> 2:24:52.040 have a general idea that like, yeah, anti Semitism is 2:24:52.080 --> 2:24:53.520 like in a lot of ways used as a way 2:24:53.560 --> 2:24:57.920 to not fully confront like the mechanisms of capitalism, and 2:24:58.160 --> 2:25:00.320 realizing how you know, it's kind of a kind of 2:25:00.320 --> 2:25:03.440 like a similar situation with Palestine is a way for 2:25:03.480 --> 2:25:06.560 people to understand that a little bit easier and to 2:25:06.560 --> 2:25:09.440 like reiterate the point about how you know you're not 2:25:09.480 --> 2:25:11.600 immune to anti semitism just because you're on the left right. 2:25:11.959 --> 2:25:13.760 Something else you also bring up in the book is 2:25:13.800 --> 2:25:19.240 like Marxist Leninism has a very mixed history with their 2:25:19.280 --> 2:25:21.880 relationship to anti Semitism, and I think you do see 2:25:21.879 --> 2:25:24.120 this with with with the degree of the discourse on 2:25:24.160 --> 2:25:27.240 this issue. You know, if you compare you know, anarchist 2:25:27.360 --> 2:25:31.600 viewpoints on like statism and anti Zionism to a whole 2:25:31.600 --> 2:25:34.800 bunch of Marxist Leninists talking about this issue, I do 2:25:34.840 --> 2:25:38.160 believe there is you know, generally maybe more anti Semitic 2:25:38.240 --> 2:25:41.760 undertones among some of the more like statist communists. And 2:25:41.840 --> 2:25:44.680 I think you talk about like the Soviet Union's own 2:25:44.720 --> 2:25:50.160 oppression of Jewish people and kind of the continued programs 2:25:50.200 --> 2:25:52.560 that happened even after the end of World War Two. 2:25:53.000 --> 2:25:55.560 Yeah, I'd say, like a history of the nineteenth and 2:25:55.600 --> 2:25:58.480 the twentieth century left, I think the record of both 2:25:58.520 --> 2:26:01.720 camps has been fairly mixed. I think it was anarchist 2:26:01.840 --> 2:26:05.280 like you know, Bakunen who maybe like the ins yeah, totally. 2:26:05.360 --> 2:26:07.039 And you know, like I guess I have to also 2:26:07.040 --> 2:26:09.600 have to say, you know, the the was the nineteen 2:26:09.760 --> 2:26:12.879 seventeen October Revolution, and that was like probably one of 2:26:12.879 --> 2:26:16.880 the first times that are left led society did pass 2:26:16.959 --> 2:26:20.000 you know, laws out long antisemitism and then like they did, 2:26:20.160 --> 2:26:21.280 you know, defeat the Nazis. 2:26:21.280 --> 2:26:23.039 So there I have to give them some credit where 2:26:23.080 --> 2:26:25.720 it's due. But yes, there's also like a very mixed, 2:26:25.800 --> 2:26:26.080 you know. 2:26:26.080 --> 2:26:29.560 Record, especially in the thirties and in the forties and beyond, 2:26:29.560 --> 2:26:32.840 and certainly yeah, today, I would completely agree with you 2:26:32.879 --> 2:26:36.680 that like the more statist camps on the left are 2:26:36.959 --> 2:26:40.400 the most kind of aligned with conspiratorial thinking with campus 2:26:40.440 --> 2:26:43.039 and yeah, I really like the way that you broke 2:26:43.120 --> 2:26:47.200 down just how these conspiracy theory can distract us from 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:49.199 the root causes of power. And that's really I think 2:26:49.760 --> 2:26:53.160 where if you want to develop like a structural understanding 2:26:53.160 --> 2:26:56.240 of anti Semitism and how it connects to capitalism and 2:26:56.280 --> 2:26:58.440 all the other systems of oppression, that's where you got 2:26:58.480 --> 2:27:03.199 to go, right Seeing how, especially in times of crisis 2:27:03.280 --> 2:27:07.879 and massive discontent like today, with the rise of nationalism, 2:27:08.720 --> 2:27:12.440 with you know, widespread alienation, that's when anti Semitism really 2:27:12.520 --> 2:27:17.440 rises and is mobilized by authoritarian and nationalists, you know leaders, 2:27:18.120 --> 2:27:20.560 when there's millions of people who are are fed up 2:27:20.600 --> 2:27:23.800 that they don't have a job, they don't have any savings. 2:27:24.040 --> 2:27:26.680 They know the media is lying to them, they know 2:27:26.959 --> 2:27:30.400 that politicians don't represent them. That's when these conspiracy theories, 2:27:30.480 --> 2:27:32.560 you know, really take root on the right and on 2:27:32.600 --> 2:27:34.920 the left. And that's why you have you know, Trump 2:27:35.080 --> 2:27:37.920 and Steve Bannon and the rest of them, you know, saying, oh, 2:27:37.920 --> 2:27:40.439 go look at the globalists, Go look at George Soros, 2:27:40.480 --> 2:27:42.160 you go look at cultural Marxists. 2:27:42.200 --> 2:27:42.400 Right. 2:27:42.440 --> 2:27:44.760 And I think the more that you know, the left 2:27:45.160 --> 2:27:48.800 can advance our own understanding of why the world is 2:27:48.840 --> 2:27:50.800 so fucked up in how to make it better, then 2:27:50.800 --> 2:27:53.480 we can really undercut the root causes of anti Semitism 2:27:53.600 --> 2:27:57.119 and move more people into our coalitions. So yeah, that's 2:27:57.160 --> 2:27:57.640 really key. 2:27:57.640 --> 2:27:58.160 I think. 2:28:08.680 --> 2:28:10.640 I have two examples I like to kind of bring 2:28:10.720 --> 2:28:13.560 up as ways to like springboard discussions and like how 2:28:13.560 --> 2:28:17.800 we can actually like handle this going forward, whether that 2:28:17.879 --> 2:28:21.200 be you know, if you hear someone say something at 2:28:21.200 --> 2:28:24.080 a protest that makes you think that's a little questionable, 2:28:24.720 --> 2:28:27.240 or as ways to like actually just like continue like 2:28:27.360 --> 2:28:31.600 your own like active participation in calls for ceasefire and 2:28:31.720 --> 2:28:35.200 ending the genocide in Palestine and whatever justice in Palestine 2:28:35.280 --> 2:28:38.200 might look like. So a few months ago, I was 2:28:38.200 --> 2:28:43.280 at the Emory University campus occupation and maybe like a 2:28:43.280 --> 2:28:47.080 week in or so, Enemy of the Pod Jackson Hinkle 2:28:47.560 --> 2:28:50.720 showed up in person along with Hawes and a few 2:28:50.720 --> 2:28:53.440 of those kind of like cronies. Right, These are people 2:28:53.720 --> 2:28:58.600 who are like conservative communists, mega communists. They're basically like 2:28:58.760 --> 2:29:02.200 Douganists or like third persists, and they basically become influencers 2:29:02.200 --> 2:29:05.000 that monetize the genocide and gaza for their own like 2:29:05.120 --> 2:29:09.720 personal political profile. So this guy showed up one night 2:29:10.080 --> 2:29:12.760 and no one really knew what exactly to do, Like 2:29:12.879 --> 2:29:15.640 people knew who he was. There was people talking with organizers, 2:29:16.040 --> 2:29:18.760 and like organizers tried to talk with him and be like, hey, 2:29:18.879 --> 2:29:22.960 can you like not be here and he's like, well, no, 2:29:23.320 --> 2:29:25.080 I want to be here because blah blah blah blah 2:29:25.080 --> 2:29:26.920 blah blah blah. And you know, certain people would try 2:29:26.920 --> 2:29:29.280 to get into like political arguments with him, which is 2:29:29.280 --> 2:29:31.959 I think is completely useless. And it was. It was 2:29:32.040 --> 2:29:35.440 kind of a weird situation. And then we learned that 2:29:35.480 --> 2:29:38.640 he was slated to speak at an event the next day. 2:29:38.879 --> 2:29:41.080 Now it's unclear if he was kind of hijacking this 2:29:41.120 --> 2:29:44.039 event or if he was actually invited to speak, but regardless, 2:29:44.080 --> 2:29:46.160 he was going to show up and make some kind 2:29:46.160 --> 2:29:49.600 of speech at an event later that next day. So 2:29:50.080 --> 2:29:53.560 some people put together this flyer kind of going through 2:29:53.760 --> 2:29:58.560 Hinkle's politics, his history of anti semitism, rabid queer phobia, racism, 2:29:58.840 --> 2:30:00.760 all these things that explain kind of who he actually 2:30:00.840 --> 2:30:04.960 is as a person. And these flyers were distributed that morning, 2:30:05.080 --> 2:30:08.200 like before before he was slated to speak around the venue. 2:30:08.720 --> 2:30:11.520 As he went up on stage, a decent number of 2:30:11.560 --> 2:30:14.200 people in the audience who had these flyers protested to 2:30:14.240 --> 2:30:17.040 be like no, like you can't be here. He was 2:30:17.160 --> 2:30:19.560 escorted out of the building, and then he was escorted 2:30:19.600 --> 2:30:22.000 off of campus. I think this was a very effective 2:30:22.160 --> 2:30:25.440 way of handling a situation like this. It didn't give 2:30:25.520 --> 2:30:27.720 him like an opportunity for like extra clicks. 2:30:27.760 --> 2:30:27.960 You know. 2:30:28.360 --> 2:30:32.360 It wasn't a super volatile way to handle this. It 2:30:32.440 --> 2:30:34.520 was it was very simple. It was it was kind 2:30:34.560 --> 2:30:36.680 of elegant. There was just no way for him to 2:30:36.720 --> 2:30:40.560 really like weaponize this effectively. So we have something like 2:30:40.560 --> 2:30:42.680 that as a way to like, you know, clamp down 2:30:43.000 --> 2:30:46.400 on people who are either disingenuous or just actually antisemitic. 2:30:46.480 --> 2:30:50.279 We're trying to like infiltrate or take over in some degree, 2:30:50.720 --> 2:30:55.000 this kind of general call to stop the genocide in Gaza. Meanwhile, 2:30:55.000 --> 2:30:57.879 a few weeks ago, there were protests in DC as 2:30:57.920 --> 2:31:01.440 net Nyahu was speaking to Congress, and there's this video 2:31:01.520 --> 2:31:05.200 going around of people like graffitiing the fake liberty bell 2:31:05.600 --> 2:31:08.039 with like just pro Palestine slogans and stuff, and like, 2:31:08.040 --> 2:31:10.520 everyone's freaking out about this. Not everybody, you know, a 2:31:10.560 --> 2:31:13.560 certain section of political people, we're freaking outbout this. A 2:31:13.560 --> 2:31:15.560 whole bunch of other people were like, Okay, well it's 2:31:15.640 --> 2:31:16.800 graffiti on a fake bell. 2:31:16.840 --> 2:31:17.360 Who cares? 2:31:17.800 --> 2:31:20.720 But I actually watched that whole video, and after they 2:31:20.800 --> 2:31:23.720 look at the Liberty bell, it pans over to this 2:31:23.840 --> 2:31:28.480 other monument nearby where in big red lettering is written 2:31:28.680 --> 2:31:32.920 Hamas is coming. And I see this as a pretty 2:31:33.400 --> 2:31:37.280 bad way to handle a situation like this, because from 2:31:37.360 --> 2:31:39.160 what I can tell here, all that matters is just 2:31:39.200 --> 2:31:41.760 being like edgy and freaking out libs, and it kind 2:31:41.760 --> 2:31:45.600 of destroys any ability to cultivate forward momentum. It's like 2:31:45.680 --> 2:31:47.840 they're doing it just so that Democrats will be pressured 2:31:47.879 --> 2:31:52.400 into condemning it to reinforce like their own hopelessness, performative 2:31:52.400 --> 2:31:55.600 spiral of doing nothing but edgie graffiti as political praxis, 2:31:56.040 --> 2:31:57.920 And I see this as kind of a general pattern 2:31:57.959 --> 2:32:01.199 of people trying to establish themselves as like the most 2:32:01.320 --> 2:32:04.440 radical and using that as a weapon against anyone else. 2:32:04.720 --> 2:32:07.000 And it's just like a form of political posturing. It's 2:32:07.040 --> 2:32:09.800 it's hardly any different from posting a black square on Instagram. 2:32:10.040 --> 2:32:13.000 They don't want any actual movement or any actual change. 2:32:13.080 --> 2:32:15.360 They want to be the coolest, most correct people as 2:32:15.440 --> 2:32:17.600 the world ends. It's kind of like a cowardly way 2:32:17.600 --> 2:32:20.200 out because, as you point out in the book, it's 2:32:20.280 --> 2:32:22.360 kind of hell to actually have to deal with and 2:32:22.440 --> 2:32:24.800 work with people who have some degree of like morally 2:32:24.840 --> 2:32:29.680 compromised politics, and that actually requires like caring about the ends, 2:32:30.160 --> 2:32:32.879 but it's the means that make you look cool. Things 2:32:32.879 --> 2:32:34.760 like this are kind of bound to happen. At any 2:32:34.840 --> 2:32:36.600 kind of protest that has more than, like, you know, 2:32:36.680 --> 2:32:39.000 fifty people, right, there's going to be someone who does 2:32:39.040 --> 2:32:43.000 something that the main protest is not aligned with. And 2:32:43.440 --> 2:32:46.520 on that note, like what advice would you have to 2:32:46.560 --> 2:32:49.959 people who are attending these protests and you see someone 2:32:49.959 --> 2:32:52.640 who maybe does something that's a little bit questionable whether 2:32:52.680 --> 2:32:55.120 that be you know, like harassing just a random like 2:32:55.240 --> 2:32:59.360 visibly Jewish person, or you know, writing graffiti on a synagogue. Right, 2:32:59.400 --> 2:33:02.560 these things that are like really not helpful and actually 2:33:02.640 --> 2:33:06.240 kind of do display a degree of maybe like like 2:33:06.240 --> 2:33:08.439 like coded anti Semitic motivation. 2:33:09.240 --> 2:33:13.039 Yeah, so I think that's prepaiding of habas on the statue. 2:33:13.120 --> 2:33:14.960 I think it's an interesting example because that was just 2:33:15.040 --> 2:33:18.080 brandished all over right wing media. You know, Tablet magazine 2:33:18.080 --> 2:33:20.439 did an article about how these folks should be deported 2:33:21.240 --> 2:33:23.160 with all their Instagram It was like a trending thing 2:33:23.200 --> 2:33:26.440 on Instagram, and it did very little like protests wise, right, 2:33:26.560 --> 2:33:29.879 And actually at that same demonstration, there's a number of rabbis, 2:33:29.920 --> 2:33:33.120 particularly kind of like movement elder rabbis Lindholtzeman, other folks 2:33:33.120 --> 2:33:36.280 that were arrested by cops, yeah, pretty brutally and then detained. Right, 2:33:36.280 --> 2:33:39.359 So there actually was these attacking like a Jewish contingent 2:33:39.440 --> 2:33:43.040 of like religious figures totally. I think also there's been 2:33:43.040 --> 2:33:45.720 a number of examples, I think where folks really just 2:33:45.760 --> 2:33:48.120 aren't prepared for something. And I think this is actually 2:33:48.200 --> 2:33:51.120 sort of a long conversation people should have on the left. 2:33:51.160 --> 2:33:53.959 I remember years ago, I was with a group that 2:33:54.080 --> 2:33:56.680 created sort of like an accountability document. The idea was 2:33:56.760 --> 2:33:59.560 is that if something happens in an organization, it often 2:33:59.640 --> 2:34:04.280 just organization. If there's interpersonal issues, if there's like interpersonal 2:34:04.280 --> 2:34:07.240 trauma or assault, things like that, and so getting out 2:34:07.240 --> 2:34:08.840 in front of it and just like having a sense 2:34:08.879 --> 2:34:10.360 of like how you want to deal with things, and 2:34:10.440 --> 2:34:12.600 like having had consensus amongst folks with like this is 2:34:12.640 --> 2:34:14.720 like appropriate behavior, this is how we want to handle stuff. 2:34:14.760 --> 2:34:17.680 That's always a strong thing to do. But at did 2:34:17.680 --> 2:34:19.840 George I think it was at George Washington University campus 2:34:19.840 --> 2:34:22.520 at the end of April. Patrick Casey, who's formerly of 2:34:22.520 --> 2:34:26.480 Identity Europa and the American Identity Movement, showed up at 2:34:26.520 --> 2:34:28.400 the encampment and wanted to talk to people, want to 2:34:28.440 --> 2:34:30.560 ask them questions and that kind of thing. And people 2:34:30.560 --> 2:34:33.320 were totally obliged him. They were in photos with them, 2:34:33.560 --> 2:34:35.440 let him take video. It's because they didn't know who 2:34:35.440 --> 2:34:38.640 he was. Yeah, right, in reality, he didn't actually find 2:34:38.680 --> 2:34:41.360 anyone that was going to basically support his vision. He 2:34:41.400 --> 2:34:44.120 stopped people asked, you know, will you allow right wing 2:34:44.120 --> 2:34:47.480 anti zionists here? They basically said no. He did find 2:34:47.520 --> 2:34:49.800 one person with a hat that said Israel did nine 2:34:49.800 --> 2:34:52.600 to eleven, who then told him that the Jews projected Christ. 2:34:52.600 --> 2:34:54.400 But he was also kind of on the edges of 2:34:54.440 --> 2:34:57.600 the encampment. Sure, the reality is what happened was a 2:34:57.600 --> 2:34:59.840 white nationalist came into an encampment and took photos of 2:35:00.080 --> 2:35:02.280 use and posted them on a white nationalist website. That's 2:35:02.320 --> 2:35:04.720 what happened, you know. So there actually was anti semitism. 2:35:04.879 --> 2:35:07.160 It affected the Jews of the encampment, but no one 2:35:07.280 --> 2:35:09.520 know who it was. And I think the flip side 2:35:09.520 --> 2:35:11.959 of that is having partners with groups that actually do 2:35:12.000 --> 2:35:13.680 know who Patrick Casey is and be able to say, oh, 2:35:13.760 --> 2:35:16.080 that guy is not here, it's not legitimate. I think 2:35:16.080 --> 2:35:19.720 with someone like hinkele Maga communists, that's really confusing to 2:35:19.800 --> 2:35:22.240 people group. I mean, that's why he does it, Like 2:35:22.320 --> 2:35:25.360 it's a duginous and kind of grave zone types and 2:35:25.440 --> 2:35:28.240 this kind of version of authoritarian kind of like right 2:35:28.360 --> 2:35:32.320 leading right coded so called communists. It's there literally to 2:35:32.360 --> 2:35:34.400 confuse people and to bridge the gaps between the right 2:35:34.400 --> 2:35:37.040 and the left, and so again pilding that base of 2:35:37.120 --> 2:35:40.039 people talking to them, having like internal trainings about how 2:35:40.080 --> 2:35:42.240 this stuff works, and like, what these groups are? I 2:35:42.240 --> 2:35:44.200 think that's always going to be a good thing. We 2:35:44.280 --> 2:35:47.119 talked with one organizer who had an organization that had 2:35:47.120 --> 2:35:50.359 put together a training for other groups on anti semitism 2:35:50.400 --> 2:35:52.440 and invited all these groups to come, and you know, 2:35:52.560 --> 2:35:54.760 wanted to get feedback on the training. So they did 2:35:54.800 --> 2:35:57.440 the training and everyone kind of like thanked them and 2:35:57.480 --> 2:35:59.800 then went on to ask them questions. And the questions 2:35:59.840 --> 2:36:02.760 were exceedingly anti Semitic. It was things like, well, how 2:36:02.760 --> 2:36:05.120 do you talk about the New York housing market when 2:36:05.320 --> 2:36:06.199 clearly Jews. 2:36:06.000 --> 2:36:07.160 Go oh no. 2:36:07.560 --> 2:36:10.480 And these were major, major organizations and so basically they 2:36:10.480 --> 2:36:11.879 had like a choice like are we going to deal 2:36:11.920 --> 2:36:13.800 with this here? Are we going to cut these relationships? 2:36:13.800 --> 2:36:15.760 And they basically were like, Okay, let's talk about this, 2:36:15.879 --> 2:36:16.480 let's deal with it. 2:36:16.560 --> 2:36:18.119 Yeah yeah, and it moved. 2:36:17.879 --> 2:36:20.160 The organization is huge. Like they were like, we don't 2:36:20.200 --> 2:36:22.480 want to make these kind of decisions. We want to 2:36:22.520 --> 2:36:24.920 realize where we've made mistakes. That's not true if everyone 2:36:25.040 --> 2:36:27.280 do not be polyanna about it and assume it's always 2:36:27.280 --> 2:36:28.760 going to go overwell. But I think we have to 2:36:28.760 --> 2:36:32.320 actually attempt to make those changes. And the reason is 2:36:32.320 --> 2:36:35.160 is that the left and building kind of left social 2:36:35.200 --> 2:36:38.920 movements build on solidarity inequality. That's the only option we 2:36:39.000 --> 2:36:41.520 have to do something about anti Semitism. The right has 2:36:41.600 --> 2:36:45.039 never made Jews safer. We have right now a system 2:36:45.080 --> 2:36:47.680 where Israeli nationalism is supposed to be the primary vessel 2:36:47.720 --> 2:36:49.560 for Jewish safety. I don't know about you, but when 2:36:49.560 --> 2:36:51.160 I look at Israel, I don't think to myself, what 2:36:51.240 --> 2:36:53.920 a tremendously bumps of safe Jews? Like this, we have 2:36:54.000 --> 2:36:56.680 a situation that I don't think the political solutions actually 2:36:56.680 --> 2:36:59.680 offer Jewish safety and instead just create like more and 2:36:59.720 --> 2:37:02.440 more social division and more and more social hierarchy. So 2:37:02.600 --> 2:37:04.240 we have to kind of look at the left and 2:37:04.320 --> 2:37:07.080 how to build a left that can confront anti Semitism, 2:37:07.280 --> 2:37:09.320 and that is really the only option we're being given. 2:37:09.720 --> 2:37:14.120 Yeah, I think like avoiding this whole issue out of 2:37:14.160 --> 2:37:16.080 fears that like it, like it, like somehow like takes 2:37:16.120 --> 2:37:19.039 away from other bad things that are happening in the world, 2:37:19.080 --> 2:37:21.959 like it, like somehow it takes away from the genocide 2:37:21.959 --> 2:37:25.160 in Gaza. I think is so misplaced thinking because I 2:37:25.280 --> 2:37:28.280 view this as all part of the same struggle and 2:37:28.760 --> 2:37:32.560 actual like active efforts to combat any any degree of 2:37:32.600 --> 2:37:36.240 anti Semitism that is witnessed, I think will serve to 2:37:36.320 --> 2:37:41.640 only like strengthen a general like overall united call to 2:37:41.680 --> 2:37:44.360 stop what's going on. And I think like people have 2:37:44.440 --> 2:37:47.200 this like inclination that maybe we shouldn't talk about it, 2:37:47.200 --> 2:37:49.240 maybe we should just like try to ignore it because 2:37:49.240 --> 2:37:52.040 it's uncomfortable or it might like hurt the cause. And 2:37:52.280 --> 2:37:56.000 I think that's just absolutely reversed. And I think, like 2:37:56.000 --> 2:37:58.800 you said, like making making inroads with like anti fascist 2:37:58.800 --> 2:38:01.600 researchers to help, like I to fy you know, when 2:38:01.640 --> 2:38:04.440 these things are happening, who bad actors might be, you know, 2:38:04.480 --> 2:38:07.840 people that might try to trojan horse certain issues to 2:38:08.280 --> 2:38:11.400 kind of alter a popular movement. Is all great ways 2:38:11.400 --> 2:38:13.640 to start, Ben, Did you have any other other kind 2:38:13.640 --> 2:38:16.600 of thoughts on how to handle this like unique political moment. 2:38:17.360 --> 2:38:21.640 Yeah, no, I mean I've been around Palestine solidarity movements 2:38:21.680 --> 2:38:24.000 for like, you know, over a decade. I remember, like 2:38:24.040 --> 2:38:26.600 a decade ago, I was in a rally and you know, 2:38:26.680 --> 2:38:30.720 most of the signage there was like really inspiring and awesome, 2:38:30.920 --> 2:38:34.720 but at one point I saw like a sign that 2:38:34.920 --> 2:38:38.360 showed like kind of like a hook nose Israeli soldier 2:38:38.680 --> 2:38:42.720 who was like feasting on children's blood. And it was like, Okay, 2:38:43.240 --> 2:38:47.400 this is definitely like there's an anti Semitism here. And 2:38:47.440 --> 2:38:49.440 I actually like went up and like talked to the 2:38:49.440 --> 2:38:51.560 person and they were like really nice, and you know, 2:38:51.600 --> 2:38:54.680 I explained to them, like, you know, there's a thing 2:38:54.720 --> 2:38:57.800 called the Bible which is an anti Semitic myth that's 2:38:57.920 --> 2:39:01.480 harm juice for centuries that is like feased on Christian 2:39:01.520 --> 2:39:04.560 children's blood, and that like it seems like that image 2:39:04.560 --> 2:39:07.840 of the Israeli soldier is like seems to like have 2:39:07.879 --> 2:39:09.600 a big nose and that's kind of like a hy 2:39:09.640 --> 2:39:12.720 stereotype from Europe. And they were like, oh, I didn't 2:39:12.760 --> 2:39:15.160 really know these things. They took the sign down and 2:39:15.320 --> 2:39:17.680 left feeling like it was a good conversation, and so 2:39:17.840 --> 2:39:21.280 like things like that, I think there's some understandable fear, 2:39:21.360 --> 2:39:24.400 like among Jewish people that you might see signs like 2:39:24.400 --> 2:39:26.760 this at rallies, and when you do, I think, just 2:39:26.760 --> 2:39:29.720 like trying to have conversations, it doesn't always go well, 2:39:29.879 --> 2:39:32.440 but often it does. And I just think, like you know, 2:39:32.480 --> 2:39:36.760 for any marginalized group or form of oppression, the more 2:39:36.920 --> 2:39:39.879 that people just deep in their understanding of like what 2:39:39.920 --> 2:39:42.840 anti Semitism is how it shows up what some of 2:39:42.879 --> 2:39:44.200 these these tropes are. 2:39:44.560 --> 2:39:48.240 Like. The more that it becomes normalized, the more that it. 2:39:48.200 --> 2:39:51.000 Will become second nature to people, and people won't be 2:39:51.040 --> 2:39:53.680 as afraid to talk about it. There won't be this 2:39:53.760 --> 2:39:56.320 kind of like weird silence around it, and there's some 2:39:56.480 --> 2:40:00.000 decemitism in that silence. To be clear, like for any 2:40:00.160 --> 2:40:02.240 kind of oppression. If you thought, oh, if people don't 2:40:02.240 --> 2:40:04.640 want to talk about like anti black racism in the movement, 2:40:04.720 --> 2:40:07.920 that's that itself is like is part of anti blackness, right, 2:40:07.959 --> 2:40:09.920 so we should be clear. And I also think, like 2:40:09.920 --> 2:40:13.320 you're saying, the fact that so often, like atmusations of 2:40:13.320 --> 2:40:16.440 anti semitism are weaponized against our movements makes people don't 2:40:16.480 --> 2:40:19.000 want to talk about it, makes people think, oh, this 2:40:19.080 --> 2:40:21.039 is just a right wing issue, or if we talk 2:40:21.080 --> 2:40:23.560 about it, or we're just lending treat ince to the right. 2:40:23.680 --> 2:40:25.800 But I think that's changing. 2:40:25.560 --> 2:40:28.360 Especially with the growth of the Jewish left and with 2:40:28.400 --> 2:40:31.200 an understanding that anti semitism is real and needs to 2:40:31.240 --> 2:40:33.240 be tackled. And so I think, yeah, the one of 2:40:33.280 --> 2:40:36.280 the things to keep changing, this conversation will be a 2:40:36.320 --> 2:40:36.920 lot easier. 2:40:37.080 --> 2:40:39.240 Yeah, is there any other thing that you would like 2:40:39.280 --> 2:40:41.840 to mention kind of near the end of this piece, 2:40:42.040 --> 2:40:43.920 you know, anything on like the Jewish left, any of 2:40:43.920 --> 2:40:46.400 the other kind of closing thoughts that didn't get brought up. 2:40:46.680 --> 2:40:48.520 Oh, the only thing was say, we spend a lot 2:40:48.560 --> 2:40:52.039 of time talking about the stake that non Jewish folks 2:40:52.080 --> 2:40:54.000 have in this, and I think there's there's a couple 2:40:54.000 --> 2:40:55.840 of things that are worth considering. Like we've sort of 2:40:55.840 --> 2:40:58.720 talked about anti semitism. One of the key features of 2:40:58.720 --> 2:41:01.080 anti semitism is that it's not true, Like it's a 2:41:01.160 --> 2:41:05.440 bad actual analysis about power, state, empires, and capitalism works. 2:41:05.560 --> 2:41:07.959 So if that is sort of steeping in, and this 2:41:08.000 --> 2:41:11.279 is true of conspiracy theories broadly, if that's cp into politics, 2:41:11.360 --> 2:41:14.080 that's just a failure right there. And so it's really 2:41:14.080 --> 2:41:16.039 incumbent on people to sort of try and move past 2:41:16.080 --> 2:41:18.120 that and confront those things, because that's the only way 2:41:18.200 --> 2:41:21.240 that like social movements can actually gain kind of efficacy. 2:41:21.800 --> 2:41:23.680 And the other thing is that they're directly tied to 2:41:23.680 --> 2:41:25.600 other forms of oppression. If you look at like the 2:41:25.760 --> 2:41:28.879 all out assault on trans healthcare and transtitutions right now, 2:41:29.080 --> 2:41:31.880 it's overwhelming using anti Semitic conspiracy theories as sort of 2:41:31.920 --> 2:41:34.800 the scaffolding to hold it together. Absolutely, And this has 2:41:34.800 --> 2:41:37.720 been historically true about anti blackness in the US and 2:41:37.760 --> 2:41:40.959 the other forms of oppression, and so these things are intertwined. 2:41:41.000 --> 2:41:42.920 So I think it's important just to acknowledge that like 2:41:42.959 --> 2:41:45.640 anti Semitism is not like just a Jewish problem or 2:41:45.680 --> 2:41:48.120 affect Jewish people. It's really baked into these kind of 2:41:48.120 --> 2:41:51.320 interlocking systems of oppression. So we should see it as 2:41:51.640 --> 2:41:53.840 a way of confronting other things as well. And to 2:41:53.920 --> 2:41:56.400 make that, can I give it value or can value 2:41:56.440 --> 2:41:58.040 to confront on its own terms? 2:41:58.600 --> 2:42:01.800 Yeah, And I think this book came out really at 2:42:01.800 --> 2:42:05.320 a moment when like these conversations are needed more than ever, 2:42:05.480 --> 2:42:08.360 and also at a moment when the Jewish left is 2:42:08.480 --> 2:42:11.720 just growing by leaps and bounds, and I think to 2:42:11.840 --> 2:42:14.200 end on a hopeful note, and that gives me a 2:42:14.240 --> 2:42:16.480 lot of hope. Along with the growth of the left, 2:42:16.560 --> 2:42:20.240 you know, more broadly right surging to the streets in 2:42:20.360 --> 2:42:24.279 support of Palestine, we're seeing like new generations and folks 2:42:24.280 --> 2:42:27.760 across all generations and Jewish communities who are building new 2:42:27.840 --> 2:42:32.560 ritual modalities, new modes of Jewish identity, new politics, who 2:42:32.560 --> 2:42:36.360 are really questioning old ways of doing things and really 2:42:36.400 --> 2:42:41.439 building a Jewish future beyond nationalism and militarism, and connecting 2:42:41.800 --> 2:42:45.760 our struggles with all other struggles as they've long been connected, 2:42:45.920 --> 2:42:48.240 you know, like Jewish left has been around for a 2:42:48.280 --> 2:42:50.879 long time. And so yeah, we're really living at a 2:42:51.000 --> 2:42:54.160 historic moment, both around this issue and around all of 2:42:54.160 --> 2:42:55.880 our movements in general. So that gives me a lot 2:42:55.879 --> 2:42:56.279 of hope. 2:42:56.480 --> 2:42:58.600 Thank you both so much for coming on to talk 2:42:58.640 --> 2:43:02.200 about these not very fun topics. I spent two hours 2:43:02.240 --> 2:43:03.480 this morning reading through the book. 2:43:03.600 --> 2:43:04.520 It was very good. 2:43:04.879 --> 2:43:08.520 I strongly recommend people read it, especially considering everything that's 2:43:08.520 --> 2:43:11.560 happened like these past eight months. I think there's a 2:43:11.600 --> 2:43:14.440 lot of very good insights in there. Where can people 2:43:14.760 --> 2:43:17.000 find a copy of Safety through Solidarity? 2:43:17.160 --> 2:43:18.600 I think I think you can pick it up anywhere. 2:43:18.840 --> 2:43:20.879 Appreciate the kind of words. I appreciate you having us 2:43:20.920 --> 2:43:23.920 on the talk about it. We've been directing folks to 2:43:24.040 --> 2:43:27.040 sort of like movement bookstores, and we've been partnering with 2:43:27.040 --> 2:43:29.080 a bunch of them, you know, so I think, like 2:43:29.160 --> 2:43:31.400 local read bookstores are always a great place. We have 2:43:31.480 --> 2:43:34.040 to like actively sustain those places and be a part 2:43:34.080 --> 2:43:35.320 of them. So I think that's a great place to 2:43:35.320 --> 2:43:38.000 do it, and also kind of requesting them at libraries, 2:43:38.120 --> 2:43:40.080 sort of like pointing folks to both of those things. 2:43:40.080 --> 2:43:41.400 So that's a great way to support the book. 2:43:41.760 --> 2:43:44.680 Great. I really appreciate you having us on Garrison. It's 2:43:44.720 --> 2:43:46.600 been a great conversation and we appreciate all the work 2:43:46.640 --> 2:43:48.520 you do so needed to be connective. 2:43:48.680 --> 2:43:49.480 All right, thanks much. 2:44:02.640 --> 2:44:04.920 Welcome to Nick Dafa here a podcast of once Again. 2:44:05.000 --> 2:44:07.160 I have forgotten to write an intro for I'm your 2:44:07.160 --> 2:44:09.679 host bi along with these chains. 2:44:09.959 --> 2:44:12.440 I'm here. It's great to be here. Intro on. 2:44:14.280 --> 2:44:17.880 Yeah, and this interless episode is I think the first 2:44:17.920 --> 2:44:21.680 episode that well, can I promise this is the first 2:44:21.720 --> 2:44:26.080 episode that was recorded after we learned that Tim Wallas 2:44:26.160 --> 2:44:29.720 was going to be the vice presidential nominee, defeating the 2:44:29.800 --> 2:44:32.360 sexual assault guy and then the other sexual assault guy 2:44:32.360 --> 2:44:33.680 who probably covered up on murder. 2:44:34.080 --> 2:44:36.160 Yeah, Dan slack on it also coming up a murder 2:44:36.240 --> 2:44:36.520 an me. 2:44:37.959 --> 2:44:40.920 Yeah. That was a truly impressive, truly impressive sort of 2:44:41.160 --> 2:44:44.600 set of candidates that party elite were choosing from. 2:44:44.879 --> 2:44:49.400 It's still somewhat surprising that they didn't like Fumble. I 2:44:49.400 --> 2:44:51.560 mean to they will still fumble. We have months to go, 2:44:51.720 --> 2:44:53.000 But that's true. 2:44:54.120 --> 2:44:57.080 Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I think, oh god, 2:44:57.120 --> 2:45:00.120 we figured out this guy covered up a murder. That's 2:45:00.120 --> 2:45:02.560 probably the kind of thing that like even the Dems 2:45:02.720 --> 2:45:07.360 like dog shit opposition research people were like, hmm, okay, 2:45:07.440 --> 2:45:08.720 we shouldn't run that guy. 2:45:08.879 --> 2:45:11.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that tweeting about his murder cover up. 2:45:11.480 --> 2:45:12.480 Let's leave this one. 2:45:13.000 --> 2:45:15.600 Yeah, that's Shapiro out of Pennsylvania, who's one of the 2:45:15.640 --> 2:45:16.680 other candidates by the way. 2:45:16.720 --> 2:45:17.800 Yeah, sucks shit. 2:45:18.400 --> 2:45:20.320 But you know, so the guy we ended up with 2:45:20.360 --> 2:45:23.440 a sort of folksy Midwestern actually I think it was 2:45:23.480 --> 2:45:27.640 just a defensive coordinator or whatever, the defensive coach for 2:45:27.800 --> 2:45:30.040 his football team. He's a very sort of folksy guy. 2:45:30.440 --> 2:45:33.600 We're going to get more into him next week. But 2:45:34.240 --> 2:45:36.200 the thing that I wanted to sort of start our 2:45:36.240 --> 2:45:40.200 discussion about the vice presidential candidates with is attempting to 2:45:40.240 --> 2:45:43.640 reconcile something that I've seen a lot of discussion about 2:45:43.879 --> 2:45:46.120 and sort of I don't know, kind of confusion to 2:45:46.120 --> 2:45:49.840 some extent about about how do you actually make sense 2:45:50.040 --> 2:45:53.119 of the sort of two halves of Tim Walls's record, 2:45:53.200 --> 2:45:54.920 right which, on the one hand, he's signing a bunch 2:45:54.920 --> 2:45:59.240 of extremely progressive, sort of welfared legislation while being the 2:45:59.280 --> 2:46:03.119 governor of Minnesota, including things like universal free school lunch. 2:46:04.000 --> 2:46:05.359 I said it was lunch of breakfast. 2:46:05.360 --> 2:46:05.880 I don't remember. 2:46:06.640 --> 2:46:08.880 It was both, it was both, yeah, yeah, yeah. And 2:46:08.920 --> 2:46:10.160 you know, the on the one hand, you have this 2:46:10.200 --> 2:46:12.680 sort of sparkling record, and then on the other hand, 2:46:12.879 --> 2:46:15.360 you have you know, him hauling in the National Guard 2:46:15.360 --> 2:46:18.240 and deploying it to suppress the uprising in twenty twenty, which, 2:46:18.480 --> 2:46:21.760 lest we forget started in Minnesota. Yeah, that's where the 2:46:21.760 --> 2:46:25.560 Third Precinct burned, and also using the police to sort 2:46:25.560 --> 2:46:29.040 of like horribly brutalize protesters against Line three, which is 2:46:29.080 --> 2:46:31.360 an oil pipeline through a bunch of indigenous land that 2:46:32.160 --> 2:46:34.920 probably I don't know, we're probably two years out from 2:46:34.920 --> 2:46:37.280 like an unbelievably horrific oil spill coming out of it 2:46:37.320 --> 2:46:39.440 that everyone's gonna go, how can we possibly have predicted this? 2:46:39.480 --> 2:46:42.520 It only had spilled a million times before, et cetera, 2:46:42.520 --> 2:46:46.680 et cetera, and that walls like rammed through and had 2:46:46.720 --> 2:46:49.720 the people who were resisting it like horribly beaten by 2:46:49.800 --> 2:46:53.039 a cop. So how do you sort of reconcile these 2:46:53.080 --> 2:46:58.360 two halves of this guy's record. And there's like a 2:46:58.400 --> 2:47:01.520 local politics explanation which I see bandied about a lot, 2:47:01.560 --> 2:47:04.160 which is true to some extent, and that explanation is 2:47:04.160 --> 2:47:07.480 that he's not really a progressive and he's mostly kind 2:47:07.480 --> 2:47:09.280 of a moderate who she's going along with a pro 2:47:09.320 --> 2:47:12.560 fairly progressive Minnesota legislature and is getting credit for just 2:47:12.640 --> 2:47:17.440 like signing bills. And that's kind of true, but it's 2:47:17.480 --> 2:47:21.400 also I think ultimately a cop out, because we are 2:47:21.440 --> 2:47:25.080 on year about one hundred and forty of the welfare 2:47:25.120 --> 2:47:30.560 state and this shit keeps happening every single time. And 2:47:30.640 --> 2:47:33.400 what's really sort of at stake here analytically is that 2:47:33.440 --> 2:47:36.679 the relationship between the welfare state and violence is significantly 2:47:36.760 --> 2:47:42.000 deeper than the record of one guy. And so today 2:47:42.000 --> 2:47:44.080 what we're going to be doing is not really talking 2:47:44.120 --> 2:47:45.720 about Tim Walls so much. What we're going to be 2:47:45.720 --> 2:47:47.800 doing is we're going to be going back through some 2:47:47.879 --> 2:47:51.120 of the history of social democracy and trying to understand 2:47:51.200 --> 2:47:53.600 how it became entangled with the sort of use of 2:47:53.680 --> 2:47:56.400 force with police violence, because I think there's a story 2:47:56.440 --> 2:47:58.720 there that's been completely buried by the tidal wave of 2:47:58.840 --> 2:48:05.480 just like I don't know whatever walls takes. And you know, 2:48:05.520 --> 2:48:07.760 I think presidential elections are something that has a tendency 2:48:07.800 --> 2:48:10.640 to just destroy everyone's analytical capacity for like two years. 2:48:11.040 --> 2:48:15.560 So yes, let's resist that and go do something interesting. Yeah, okay, Yeah, 2:48:15.600 --> 2:48:18.240 So I think the place to start with this is 2:48:18.320 --> 2:48:20.680 this is a place that we start I think not 2:48:20.840 --> 2:48:23.000 infrequent amount on this show, or at least I do. 2:48:23.720 --> 2:48:27.440 And that's the sort of original debates from you know, 2:48:27.480 --> 2:48:31.880 about the eighteen thirties through roughly the eighteen seventies early 2:48:31.920 --> 2:48:35.200 eighteen eighties, when it changes about what socialism was going 2:48:35.280 --> 2:48:38.680 to be. There's always been to some extent, like a 2:48:38.680 --> 2:48:42.360 bunch of different kind of understandings of it. But something 2:48:42.440 --> 2:48:44.520 that you know, what you'd call the sort of left 2:48:44.560 --> 2:48:47.560 wing of the Democrats, which is like everyone at that point, right, 2:48:47.560 --> 2:48:49.800 and the anarchists kind of agree about. And something that 2:48:49.840 --> 2:48:52.280 Mars agrees about with sort of the anarchists at the 2:48:52.280 --> 2:48:55.280 time is that socialism is you know, it's the free 2:48:55.320 --> 2:48:58.760 association of producers, right, you know, it is the working 2:48:58.760 --> 2:49:02.000 class abolishing itself, but then also like being the people 2:49:02.000 --> 2:49:04.600 who directly run the new society that's sort of brought 2:49:04.600 --> 2:49:06.280 about by this thing without sort of the stage or 2:49:06.360 --> 2:49:07.640 sort of political mediation. 2:49:07.360 --> 2:49:08.120 Et cetera, et cetera. 2:49:08.879 --> 2:49:11.480 And even you know people like Angles who are like 2:49:11.640 --> 2:49:15.160 ore statists, right, like Angles, you know, uses the theoretical 2:49:15.240 --> 2:49:18.440 justification for like every time a socialist picks up a 2:49:18.440 --> 2:49:21.080 machine gun to shoot someone and that works for the state, 2:49:21.160 --> 2:49:23.680 Like that's Angles justification for it. But even he's talking 2:49:23.720 --> 2:49:26.360 about how like one day the state will be like 2:49:26.400 --> 2:49:28.360 put on a shelf in a museum and people will 2:49:28.360 --> 2:49:30.320 walk past to look at it and then like walk 2:49:30.640 --> 2:49:32.160 by it because it's like it's a tool of a 2:49:32.160 --> 2:49:36.080 Bibegone era that nobody needs anymore. And in this period, 2:49:36.120 --> 2:49:41.320 it's very clear that socialism is we're just directly controlling 2:49:41.320 --> 2:49:44.520 the musa production and it's directly democratically managing their lives. 2:49:45.640 --> 2:49:49.600 But this becomes less clear as the eighteen hundreds go on. 2:49:50.680 --> 2:49:52.520 Something that David Grayer points out, and I think I've 2:49:52.560 --> 2:49:55.039 quoted this on the show before, but it's important here. 2:49:55.600 --> 2:49:58.000 While this is sort of going on, right, there's two 2:49:58.080 --> 2:50:00.640 kind of trends in the development of the state and 2:50:00.680 --> 2:50:04.320 the development of sort of socialist ideology. One is a 2:50:04.400 --> 2:50:08.200 move in the eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties, socialists start 2:50:08.240 --> 2:50:12.560 watching states build railroads and this drives them completely nuts. 2:50:12.879 --> 2:50:15.320 It just obliterates their brains. It's like this and the 2:50:15.360 --> 2:50:19.360 post office just like absolutely nuke their brains, and they 2:50:19.400 --> 2:50:22.039 start going, Okay, hold on, but what if instead of 2:50:22.080 --> 2:50:25.199 workers directly managing their affairs and having you know, workers 2:50:25.200 --> 2:50:29.640 coordinating like the production of society, what if instead the 2:50:29.720 --> 2:50:32.720 state did that? And socialism was literally when the state 2:50:32.800 --> 2:50:35.280 did things. And this is something that like even Angles 2:50:35.360 --> 2:50:37.120 is like pretty hostile to in the sense that like 2:50:37.160 --> 2:50:39.280 he's a status to some extent, but he also is 2:50:39.440 --> 2:50:42.800 very wary of doing things like calling state onwn enterprises socialism, 2:50:42.920 --> 2:50:45.360 right because like, well, no, obviously that's not necessarily true, 2:50:46.000 --> 2:50:49.359 because like you could just have capitalists state owned enterprises 2:50:49.480 --> 2:50:51.840 like lots of places US and includingly importantly sort of 2:50:51.879 --> 2:50:54.000 Bismarck's Germany in this period, which we will come back 2:50:54.000 --> 2:50:54.640 to in a second. 2:50:55.520 --> 2:50:57.800 Yeah, and lots of the places that people on Twitter 2:50:57.800 --> 2:51:00.240 to think are socialist paradise is today. 2:51:00.120 --> 2:51:02.800 Yeah, are just these sooe like state on enterprise hell holes. 2:51:02.840 --> 2:51:06.200 We've I talked about this extensively with China elsewhere, and 2:51:06.520 --> 2:51:10.160 this sort of like shifts the conception of what people 2:51:10.200 --> 2:51:12.280 think socialism is, and you get these more sort of 2:51:12.280 --> 2:51:15.279 reformist trends in sort of socialist circles. 2:51:15.320 --> 2:51:15.959 You get your. 2:51:15.920 --> 2:51:18.840 Cot Skis, your burn Steams, people who think that, like, 2:51:18.840 --> 2:51:20.480 you don't need a revolution. You can sort of just 2:51:20.520 --> 2:51:23.039 like you can vote your way into the state owning 2:51:23.080 --> 2:51:26.480 property and that will somehow achieve socialism, or you can 2:51:26.520 --> 2:51:29.920 sort of like stabilize capitalism and make it not bad anymore. 2:51:31.080 --> 2:51:33.400 Now that's what's happening on the socialist side. So there's 2:51:33.440 --> 2:51:37.880 this sort of project of like autonomous workers control over everything. 2:51:38.080 --> 2:51:40.560 Right that that had been the original socialist project is 2:51:40.560 --> 2:51:43.520 being eaten away on one hand from its own parties. 2:51:44.000 --> 2:51:45.760 But then on the other hand, as sort of David 2:51:45.840 --> 2:51:49.480 Error points out, the capitalist class realizes that all of 2:51:49.520 --> 2:51:52.440 these sort of autonomous institutions that the working class is building, 2:51:53.000 --> 2:51:55.320 like your unions and your giant political parties have their 2:51:55.360 --> 2:51:58.320 own sort of welfare system. The state realizes that you 2:51:58.360 --> 2:52:00.920 can replicate these and use it like a direct buy 2:52:00.959 --> 2:52:03.760 off to stop these people from revolting. I'm going to 2:52:03.800 --> 2:52:06.200 read a passage from David Graver's The Utopia of Rules 2:52:07.080 --> 2:52:11.040 outovon Bismarck's reaction to Socialist electoral success in eighteen seventy 2:52:11.040 --> 2:52:14.440 eight was twofold on the one hand, banned the Socialist Party, 2:52:14.520 --> 2:52:18.440 trade unions, and leftist newspapers on the other, while when 2:52:18.440 --> 2:52:21.560 this proved ineffective, socialist candidates continued to run and win 2:52:21.600 --> 2:52:25.360 as independents to create a top down alternative to the 2:52:25.360 --> 2:52:30.120 free schools, workers associations, friendly societies, libraries, theaters, and the 2:52:30.200 --> 2:52:33.840 large process of building socialism from below. This took the 2:52:33.879 --> 2:52:37.640 form of a program of social insurance for unemployment, health 2:52:37.680 --> 2:52:38.520 and disability, etc. 2:52:38.680 --> 2:52:38.840 Etc. 2:52:39.200 --> 2:52:42.920 Free education, pensions, and so forth. Much of it watered 2:52:42.920 --> 2:52:44.840 down versions of policies that have been part of the 2:52:44.840 --> 2:52:48.800 socialist platform, but in every case carefully purged of any 2:52:48.800 --> 2:52:52.880 democratic participatory elements. In private, at least, he was utterly 2:52:52.920 --> 2:52:55.480 candid about describing these efforts to buy out working class 2:52:55.480 --> 2:52:59.199 loyalties day as conservative nationalist project. When leff Ring regimes 2:52:59.240 --> 2:53:02.240 later did take path, the template had already been established, 2:53:02.280 --> 2:53:04.959 and almost invariably they took the same top down approach, 2:53:05.040 --> 2:53:10.279 incorporating locally organized clinics, libraries, mutual banking initiatives, workers education 2:53:10.400 --> 2:53:13.360 centers and the like into the administrative structure of the state. 2:53:15.520 --> 2:53:16.520 So there's two. 2:53:16.360 --> 2:53:21.840 Interesting things here. One is that the developments of the 2:53:21.840 --> 2:53:23.480 things that are going to become the body welfare state, 2:53:24.240 --> 2:53:27.360 this is implemented not by you know, all these sort 2:53:27.360 --> 2:53:29.720 of policies that we're talking about walls doing. Now, these 2:53:29.720 --> 2:53:33.119 were originally implemented not by the left, but very deliberately 2:53:33.280 --> 2:53:35.880 by Auto von Bismarck, like the arch late nineteen eirly 2:53:35.879 --> 2:53:39.240 twenty century conservative, the guy who is literally responsible for 2:53:39.280 --> 2:53:42.680 the foundation of Germany, right, Like, that's that's his project. 2:53:42.680 --> 2:53:44.520 He is the guy who creates the nation of Germany 2:53:44.680 --> 2:53:46.600 and thus will forever live in infamy. Is one of 2:53:46.640 --> 2:53:49.680 the most evil people in human history. The line directly 2:53:49.680 --> 2:53:53.279 from him to Hitler is incredibly straight. But the second 2:53:53.280 --> 2:53:57.039 part of this is what social democratic politics turns into, right, 2:53:57.080 --> 2:54:01.840 which is this effort to sort of central all of 2:54:01.879 --> 2:54:05.400 the sort of autonomous institutions that the working classic constructed 2:54:05.400 --> 2:54:08.200 and to centralize all of that activity into the state. 2:54:08.600 --> 2:54:08.800 Right. 2:54:10.240 --> 2:54:11.840 You know, this is like having your sort of clinics 2:54:11.879 --> 2:54:13.720 be state run, having your libraries be state run, having 2:54:13.760 --> 2:54:16.240 your like mutual banking things, like all of these things 2:54:16.480 --> 2:54:20.080 that had that had been independent institutions are folded into 2:54:20.080 --> 2:54:23.360 the state project by folding these things into the state. 2:54:23.440 --> 2:54:26.359 Graper's interested in the extent to which they become deuaucratized 2:54:26.360 --> 2:54:29.760 and the cerb democratic elements fanish entirely. I am less 2:54:29.760 --> 2:54:31.400 interested in that here, and I am more interested in 2:54:31.440 --> 2:54:33.320 the extent to which it ties all of these things 2:54:33.360 --> 2:54:37.000 to state violence. Now, James, do you know what else 2:54:37.080 --> 2:54:38.440 is tied to state violence? 2:54:39.280 --> 2:54:41.720 That was a master stroke. 2:54:41.879 --> 2:54:41.959 Me. 2:54:42.800 --> 2:54:44.920 Mac did not have that one written down. Came up 2:54:44.959 --> 2:54:49.039 on the cuff. Absolutely fantastic. Please tell me mea what 2:54:49.120 --> 2:54:49.879 is connected to day? 2:54:50.160 --> 2:54:52.760 It is the products and services that support this podcast. 2:54:59.680 --> 2:55:01.440 We are back. 2:55:01.920 --> 2:55:04.280 So we've gotten into sort of how these things that 2:55:04.400 --> 2:55:06.959 used to be mutual aid, right, these are these sort 2:55:06.959 --> 2:55:10.480 of programs that were developed by working class institutions to 2:55:10.480 --> 2:55:12.959 support each other, where we're sort of folded into the state. 2:55:13.600 --> 2:55:15.480 And now we have to get into the reverse of 2:55:15.520 --> 2:55:17.880 this process, which is how violence was folded into social 2:55:17.879 --> 2:55:20.560 democracy in the eighteen hundreds. And this is something I 2:55:20.600 --> 2:55:24.840 think is kind of well known among the extremely nerd left, 2:55:24.879 --> 2:55:27.120 but I don't know if it's very well known outside 2:55:27.160 --> 2:55:30.840 of that. But in the late eighteen hundreds and early 2:55:30.920 --> 2:55:35.160 nineteen hundreds, everyone who is like a Marxist in any 2:55:35.240 --> 2:55:37.880 stripe is a social democrat. And this is true equally 2:55:38.040 --> 2:55:41.680 of reformists like Burnstein and also people like Lenin right, 2:55:41.720 --> 2:55:44.760 like the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, both are splits from 2:55:44.800 --> 2:55:47.080 like the social Democratic Labor Party is it social Labor 2:55:47.080 --> 2:55:49.000 Party was I forget the actual name of the Party 2:55:49.000 --> 2:55:50.800 of the Swim, but it was a social democratic party 2:55:50.800 --> 2:55:51.480 of like Russia. 2:55:51.640 --> 2:55:51.800 Right. 2:55:52.800 --> 2:55:54.440 This is the thing, like all of the communists and 2:55:54.440 --> 2:55:57.600 all the socialists like split from these sort of social 2:55:57.600 --> 2:56:00.680 democracy things, which means that inherently, and this is something 2:56:00.720 --> 2:56:02.760 that you can see reflected in the ways that they 2:56:02.760 --> 2:56:04.320 come to power and in the ways that they sort 2:56:04.360 --> 2:56:08.240 of govern. Len it is communism and social democracy are 2:56:08.280 --> 2:56:11.520 both just two variants of the same thing. And you 2:56:11.560 --> 2:56:13.680 can see this most clearly ether ways they come to power, 2:56:13.680 --> 2:56:18.280 the way they embark on this project of centralizing power, violence, production, 2:56:18.520 --> 2:56:22.240 and the organization of society into the state. Both of 2:56:22.280 --> 2:56:24.600 them take power by machine gunning their enemies, and the 2:56:24.680 --> 2:56:27.200 left with the newfound power of the state. Alongside this 2:56:27.200 --> 2:56:30.200 sort of Russian revolution, there is the German Revolution. And 2:56:30.440 --> 2:56:34.000 the German Revolution is defeated when the Social Democratic Party 2:56:34.000 --> 2:56:36.440 of Germany, which had been the Party of angles right 2:56:36.600 --> 2:56:39.680 like Marx like write stuff about their platform like this 2:56:39.760 --> 2:56:43.360 is the premier social democratic party in the world. They 2:56:43.400 --> 2:56:47.840 take power by stopping the revolution, slaughtering the communists and 2:56:47.959 --> 2:56:51.040 using the sort of proto fascist Freikorps to just kill 2:56:51.080 --> 2:56:54.120 them all. This is how Rose Luxembourg is killed. So 2:56:54.360 --> 2:56:56.640 the first social democratic government to come to power in 2:56:56.680 --> 2:57:00.480 Europe since I guess technically there was about two months 2:57:00.520 --> 2:57:04.440 in eighteen forty eight when there were also Democrats in France, 2:57:04.800 --> 2:57:09.120 but that lasted very very brief amount of time, you know, 2:57:09.280 --> 2:57:10.800 So the first time they come to power is in Germany. 2:57:10.840 --> 2:57:12.760 And in Germany they come to power in this blood 2:57:12.760 --> 2:57:16.560 bath that you know, sort of destroys like the rest 2:57:16.600 --> 2:57:19.480 of this like armed left and attempting to centralize politics 2:57:19.520 --> 2:57:21.640 and military power in the hands of the state. This 2:57:21.640 --> 2:57:25.640 is how they defeat the revolutionary movements. In Russia. Basically 2:57:25.720 --> 2:57:28.240 the same process happens. Right, There's the first revolution, which 2:57:28.280 --> 2:57:31.440 is the February Revolution nine seventeen, and then the Bolsheviks 2:57:31.480 --> 2:57:33.840 take power in the Second Revolution, and the moment the 2:57:33.840 --> 2:57:37.480 Bolsheviks take power, they spend basically the entire rest of 2:57:37.520 --> 2:57:40.360 the Russian Revolution in the Russian Civil War just straight 2:57:40.400 --> 2:57:43.160 up slaughtering every single other left wing faction in the 2:57:43.280 --> 2:57:46.120 entirety of Russia, which ends in sort of the massacre 2:57:46.360 --> 2:57:48.400 beyond Oh yeah, oh yeah, they tell a lot of 2:57:48.440 --> 2:57:51.640 Ukrainian leftist they are killing anarchists from like azuer Baijan 2:57:52.240 --> 2:57:56.640 to like fucking Spain, like a prominent appearance. 2:57:56.280 --> 2:57:59.320 In Spain kidding anarchist in May nineteen thirty seven. Yeah. 2:57:59.360 --> 2:58:01.840 In the sort of Russian context, right, this is solidified 2:58:01.840 --> 2:58:04.720 by the massacre at Kronstat where the Bolsheviks sealed there 2:58:04.720 --> 2:58:08.560 sort of opposition to any kind of like autonomous working class. Right, 2:58:09.640 --> 2:58:11.760 for the Bolsheviks, the working class is going to be 2:58:12.080 --> 2:58:16.720 directly subordinated to the Bolshevik Party and to that platform, 2:58:16.720 --> 2:58:19.160 and any dvash or any attempt to sort of like 2:58:19.400 --> 2:58:22.800 manage yourself like autonomously is just going to be stamped out, right, 2:58:22.840 --> 2:58:24.600 And Lenin's attempt to do this is going to be 2:58:24.600 --> 2:58:28.080 sort of like followed by Stalin doing this even more. 2:58:28.800 --> 2:58:29.320 Yeah. 2:58:29.480 --> 2:58:33.199 And so what you have here, right, what collective ownership 2:58:33.360 --> 2:58:36.160 is in social democracy, and this is true of both 2:58:36.720 --> 2:58:38.560 the German social Democrats, who are what we think of 2:58:38.560 --> 2:58:41.560 social democrats today, right, they're sort of like electoralists, they're 2:58:41.600 --> 2:58:46.800 like capitalists, and also the Bolsheviks. What collective ownership is 2:58:46.800 --> 2:58:49.400 is the state owns things and if you try to 2:58:49.400 --> 2:58:51.800 do anything about this, they shoot you. So this is 2:58:51.800 --> 2:58:53.800 sort of the origin of like these two forms of 2:58:53.800 --> 2:58:58.360 social democracy. There's also sort of more liberal forms of this, right, 2:58:58.440 --> 2:59:02.520 like FDR does not conceive of himself as a social democrat, 2:59:02.600 --> 2:59:04.879 like he thinks of himself as a liberal when the 2:59:04.879 --> 2:59:08.600 emergan liberal tradition is a bizarre one. But you know, 2:59:08.640 --> 2:59:12.280 we actually talked about this in my episode about the 2:59:12.320 --> 2:59:15.960 time that Wizards of the Coast, the creators of magic, 2:59:16.000 --> 2:59:20.360 the Gatherery deployed the Pikerton's against the guy for revealing 2:59:20.400 --> 2:59:20.879 what was in. 2:59:20.840 --> 2:59:26.959 A magic product to her. Amazing. I think it also 2:59:27.120 --> 2:59:29.320 has some route I think in like this kind of 2:59:29.440 --> 2:59:31.680 I mean the examples I'm most familiar with the British 2:59:31.800 --> 2:59:35.720 like post eighteen thirty two Reform Act, right, like of 2:59:35.760 --> 2:59:40.280 like this paternal state benevolence. Right, they all line the 2:59:40.320 --> 2:59:43.560 same thing, right, which is state trying to buy off 2:59:43.640 --> 2:59:46.600 co opt resistance and doing so in a way that 2:59:46.680 --> 2:59:48.720 like it's karrot and stick. 2:59:48.800 --> 2:59:51.640 I guess Yeah, there's elements of this in Leninism too, right, 2:59:51.680 --> 2:59:55.040 Like Lenin's like great theoretical contribution to whatever is when 2:59:55.120 --> 2:59:57.520 Lenin talks about like trade union consciousness, people bring this 2:59:57.600 --> 2:59:59.320 up a lot because like, yeah, like there is obviously 2:59:59.360 --> 3:00:02.120 issues which is like all of your organizing being you 3:00:02.160 --> 3:00:04.400 make a trade union, and then your trade union becomes 3:00:04.440 --> 3:00:06.480 the afl CIO and tries to actually not he tries 3:00:06.520 --> 3:00:11.520 to successfully overthrows Allende and installs Pinochet, right, like there's 3:00:11.520 --> 3:00:13.640 a thing there. But when Lenin is talking about trade 3:00:13.680 --> 3:00:17.160 union consciousness, the thing that Lenin believes is that they 3:00:17.280 --> 3:00:21.640 need like middle class petite bourgeois like fucking theorists to 3:00:21.680 --> 3:00:24.800 come in and teach them what socialism is. And this 3:00:24.879 --> 3:00:26.640 is an explicit part of their theory, right, And this 3:00:26.680 --> 3:00:28.240 is the same sort of paternalisms that they have to 3:00:28.240 --> 3:00:30.440 be like led, even the sort of vanguard working class 3:00:30.480 --> 3:00:33.680 needs to be led by these like theorists who I 3:00:33.720 --> 3:00:37.279 don't know, emerge from like Lenin's friend group in exile 3:00:37.520 --> 3:00:45.280 in Switzerland or whatever. And FDR's sort of policy works 3:00:45.200 --> 3:00:49.400 as I think, it's not really understood how similar FDR's 3:00:49.480 --> 3:00:53.240 stuff is to like how the New Deal's seen at 3:00:53.240 --> 3:00:55.240 the time even by people like outside of the country 3:00:55.280 --> 3:00:58.280 as compared to like the others from massive social up 3:00:58.280 --> 3:01:00.000 people say he plays supposed to sort of Soviet com 3:01:00.040 --> 3:01:03.440 munism or even like fascism. Like Nehru, the guy who 3:01:03.440 --> 3:01:07.120 is going to become like the founding Prime Minister of India, 3:01:07.360 --> 3:01:09.280 has this whole thing in like nineteen forty one where 3:01:09.280 --> 3:01:10.440 he's look at the New Deal and he's going, this 3:01:10.480 --> 3:01:12.359 is either going to produce communism or fascism. 3:01:12.760 --> 3:01:13.680 So like the New. 3:01:13.560 --> 3:01:17.119 Deal is a fundamental rewriting of the American social contract, 3:01:18.040 --> 3:01:20.680 and a big part of it is she's doing the 3:01:20.720 --> 3:01:22.280 same thing that the social democrats are trying to do, 3:01:22.320 --> 3:01:24.520 which is that he's trying to centralize everything into the state. 3:01:24.520 --> 3:01:26.959 He's trying to centralize partially this as welfare benefits. Right, 3:01:27.000 --> 3:01:30.840 He's trying to centralize like unions very specifically into the state. 3:01:31.280 --> 3:01:34.160 And he's also trying to centralize violence into this state. 3:01:34.240 --> 3:01:38.040 Because before this, the US, I mean, we've talked about 3:01:38.080 --> 3:01:40.240 sort of Blair Mountain on behind the Bachelors before, right, 3:01:40.280 --> 3:01:42.920 like there are just open wars between the like literally 3:01:43.000 --> 3:01:46.480 capitalist armies and sort of union armies, armies formed by 3:01:46.520 --> 3:01:49.640 labor unions, not like the Union army, Like you need. 3:01:49.520 --> 3:01:52.320 To clarify this. Yeah, yeah, the great anti capitalist of 3:01:52.440 --> 3:01:53.240 the Union army. 3:01:53.480 --> 3:01:55.440 And a big part of what FDR is like running 3:01:55.440 --> 3:01:57.080 on like part of his platform is like, Okay, we 3:01:57.120 --> 3:01:59.480 need to end this like era of gun thugs, right, 3:01:59.520 --> 3:02:03.000 Like we can't have these fucking like robber barons running 3:02:03.040 --> 3:02:04.960 around with their private armist killing people. And like, yeah, 3:02:04.959 --> 3:02:09.040 that's obviously good, right, But his solution to this is, again, 3:02:09.120 --> 3:02:11.560 we're going to centralize all of the violence into the police. 3:02:11.600 --> 3:02:13.960 And unfortunately for sort of the rest of us, Right, 3:02:14.840 --> 3:02:18.439 if you're going to maintain like a capitalist system, somebody 3:02:18.480 --> 3:02:20.959 has to be pulling the triggers, and that's now the 3:02:21.000 --> 3:02:23.840 police instead of these sort of like private armies. And 3:02:23.920 --> 3:02:26.720 the other part about this bargain is that the unions 3:02:26.760 --> 3:02:29.680 also have to basically disband their armies, right because the 3:02:29.680 --> 3:02:32.360 miners are blurboutain right, they have like seventeen thousand guys, 3:02:32.760 --> 3:02:34.400 like all of them have rifles. They will go out 3:02:34.400 --> 3:02:36.080 and they will fight. They have machine guns like they 3:02:36.080 --> 3:02:37.040 have cannons. 3:02:37.400 --> 3:02:40.160 Yeah, and it's FDR who begins the gun control in 3:02:40.200 --> 3:02:43.039 the US for the National Firearms Act of nineteen thirty four. Right, 3:02:43.240 --> 3:02:46.200 Like they talk a lot about prohibition are of violence, right, 3:02:46.240 --> 3:02:48.879 but what happens at Blair Mountain is why you have 3:02:48.920 --> 3:02:49.440 the NFA. 3:02:50.959 --> 3:02:53.600 Yeah, and so what you have it's the same process, 3:02:53.640 --> 3:02:57.680 the process of sort of turning mutual aid into state programs. 3:02:57.760 --> 3:02:57.920 Right. 3:02:58.040 --> 3:02:59.560 Walls is very explicitly doing this. 3:02:59.680 --> 3:02:59.880 Right. 3:03:00.200 --> 3:03:03.200 I saw people talking about how like, oh, he's achieved 3:03:03.200 --> 3:03:06.000 the dream of the Black Panthers, like free breakfast program 3:03:06.040 --> 3:03:07.640 by like making it into the state, and it's like, no, 3:03:07.680 --> 3:03:10.400 you don't understand. The reason the Panthers were doing that 3:03:10.520 --> 3:03:12.480 was to build the roots of an autonomous society. The 3:03:12.520 --> 3:03:14.760 reason the state is doing that is so that you 3:03:14.840 --> 3:03:17.600 don't fucking revolt and you don't do twenty twenty again. 3:03:18.160 --> 3:03:19.720 Yeah, these are different things. 3:03:21.080 --> 3:03:23.880 Yeah, and this is something that as the US welfare 3:03:23.920 --> 3:03:27.640 state cycles through, you get various versions of this. There 3:03:27.680 --> 3:03:29.680 is another version of this that is the products and 3:03:29.720 --> 3:03:33.080 services that support this podcast by centralizing all of your 3:03:33.120 --> 3:03:35.320 money into their pockets and the music at the higher 3:03:35.360 --> 3:03:37.119 security guards. 3:03:45.000 --> 3:03:45.520 We're back. 3:03:47.200 --> 3:03:49.920 So the Great Society was just Johnson's sort of like 3:03:50.040 --> 3:03:53.240 big We're gonna end poverty thing. You know, He's doing 3:03:53.240 --> 3:03:57.040 the Vietnam War at the same time. Yeah, so you know, 3:03:57.040 --> 3:03:58.959 those are the sort of domestic kind of resurgency stuff, 3:03:59.000 --> 3:04:01.000 and the central lation state viol is now being projected 3:04:01.000 --> 3:04:02.920 out and in the US it's always happening, right, The 3:04:03.000 --> 3:04:06.600 US fundamentally is a project of colonial expansion, going from 3:04:06.840 --> 3:04:08.960 fucking one coast to the other, killing everyone in your 3:04:08.959 --> 3:04:12.080 path and season their land. And the contradiction of this, right, 3:04:12.120 --> 3:04:16.160 the fact that like the people who nominally want sort 3:04:16.160 --> 3:04:19.120 of welfare state also normally are like revolted at the 3:04:19.120 --> 3:04:22.959 fact that they're burning millions of people alive, and like Vietnam, 3:04:22.959 --> 3:04:25.600 Cabodia and Laos, like, this contradiction is kind of what 3:04:25.720 --> 3:04:28.920 terrors a part of social democratic politics and what replaces 3:04:28.959 --> 3:04:32.640 it is. You know, like if social democracy is a 3:04:32.680 --> 3:04:35.840 carot and a stick, right, neoliberalism is just the stick. 3:04:36.840 --> 3:04:39.320 It's just more prisons and hit you with the thing 3:04:39.520 --> 3:04:43.440 instead of this sort of like more genteel process of 3:04:43.480 --> 3:04:45.199 while we're still hitting you with the stick. But also, 3:04:45.240 --> 3:04:49.240 here are these handouts if you don't like oppose us. Yeah, 3:04:49.280 --> 3:04:51.039 so we've talked about these examples. I want to kind 3:04:51.040 --> 3:04:53.000 of move into some more modern examples of this because 3:04:53.040 --> 3:04:56.040 I think everything I've been saying is old, right, but 3:04:56.080 --> 3:04:59.320 this stuff is still happening today in the social democracies 3:04:59.360 --> 3:05:01.680 that exist, right. Like one of the biggest examples of 3:05:01.720 --> 3:05:04.840 this is there's two kinds of social democracies that people 3:05:04.840 --> 3:05:06.959 point to, depending on where in the political spectrum they are. 3:05:07.120 --> 3:05:10.920 One is like the Nordic countries, right. And this never 3:05:11.000 --> 3:05:13.680 worked on me because one of my foundational experiences, like 3:05:13.800 --> 3:05:15.480 as an activist when I was like a little baby 3:05:15.480 --> 3:05:18.280 at fifteen year old in twenty thirteen, was talking to 3:05:18.320 --> 3:05:21.800 someone who had a mounted cavalry charge done against them 3:05:22.200 --> 3:05:24.240 by the Swedish police because they were doing an anti 3:05:24.280 --> 3:05:29.640 fascist action and trampled by fucking horses because that's what 3:05:29.640 --> 3:05:31.480 the state is. And you know, so like that's like 3:05:31.560 --> 3:05:33.000 kind of on the one hand, but the thing that 3:05:33.040 --> 3:05:36.720 we're seeing right now is, you know, the remains of 3:05:36.760 --> 3:05:40.400 the welfare state being paired with this incredible, like rabid 3:05:40.440 --> 3:05:43.280 anti immigrant violence, right. And this is the thing you see 3:05:43.280 --> 3:05:45.080 in places like France too, right, where you still sort 3:05:45.120 --> 3:05:48.039 of have the welfare state. It's also this unbelievable violence 3:05:48.080 --> 3:05:49.959 against sort of non white people and anyone who's trying 3:05:50.000 --> 3:05:52.879 to like enter the country. Yeah, I think it's was 3:05:52.920 --> 3:05:56.279 it Sweden or was it Denmark that had these laws 3:05:56.360 --> 3:05:59.000 were like they would like seize the property if any 3:05:59.040 --> 3:06:00.879 immigrant who came into the country. 3:06:02.080 --> 3:06:05.600 Jesus, I don't remember that. I know more people who 3:06:05.680 --> 3:06:09.920 have migrated to Sweden. I think I'm not familiar. 3:06:10.120 --> 3:06:10.320 Yeah. 3:06:10.360 --> 3:06:12.600 They're also part of the sort of broader like European 3:06:12.640 --> 3:06:15.560 border project, which is unbelievably violent. And you're getting this 3:06:15.680 --> 3:06:17.800 with Walls too, right, he's signing on to sort of 3:06:17.879 --> 3:06:22.600 Kamala Harris's like fucking terrifying fascist border violence. And that's 3:06:22.600 --> 3:06:24.680 again because like all of this project is tied in 3:06:24.720 --> 3:06:26.760 with state centralizations. Well, okay, so what happens when you 3:06:26.800 --> 3:06:31.000 centralize the state? The answer is it starts enforcing its borders. Yeah, 3:06:31.040 --> 3:06:34.119 in order to sort of like create underclasses of incredibly 3:06:34.360 --> 3:06:38.440 dispossessed and incredibly battered and brutalized people who can be 3:06:38.480 --> 3:06:39.360 splitted for labor. 3:06:39.720 --> 3:06:43.920 Yeah, like people who are insecure with respect to the state, right, 3:06:43.920 --> 3:06:45.600 and so they can be expected by the state all 3:06:45.640 --> 3:06:47.400 by captives and this importans the state. 3:06:47.520 --> 3:06:49.920 Yeah, and you know, obviously, like the US is sort 3:06:49.920 --> 3:06:52.160 of one of the global pioneers, but like the norder 3:06:52.200 --> 3:06:55.599 social democracies are also really sort of part and parcel. 3:06:55.320 --> 3:06:56.160 Of the system. 3:06:56.760 --> 3:06:59.760 The other things I want to turn to here is 3:06:59.760 --> 3:07:03.000 is Latin American social democracies, because I talked about this 3:07:03.040 --> 3:07:06.920 at length in the Brazil episodes. Right, Brazilian social democracy 3:07:07.560 --> 3:07:12.920 Lula's like first term, right, has simultaneously this massive sort 3:07:12.959 --> 3:07:16.680 of push and social spending and then also enormous like 3:07:16.879 --> 3:07:20.040 a budget increases for the military. There's this incredible, unbelievable 3:07:20.080 --> 3:07:22.360 spike in police violence, like rate of police killings is 3:07:22.400 --> 3:07:25.160 way worse than the US. Yeah, and this is true, 3:07:25.200 --> 3:07:27.200 and like fucking all of these places, right, Like this 3:07:27.280 --> 3:07:29.240 is surely how the crew worked in twenty twenty was 3:07:29.240 --> 3:07:31.680 because the Bolivian government kept just like handing money to 3:07:31.680 --> 3:07:33.240 the police over and over again, and the police like 3:07:33.280 --> 3:07:34.160 did a cue against them. 3:07:34.240 --> 3:07:34.400 Right. 3:07:34.840 --> 3:07:38.080 This is also true in Venezuela, which is like unbelievable 3:07:38.160 --> 3:07:40.439 rates of police killing like terrifying. 3:07:40.760 --> 3:07:43.959 Oh yes, I was fair after the revolution, but I 3:07:44.000 --> 3:07:47.400 saw some of this happening, right, the revolution going from 3:07:47.440 --> 3:07:50.320 spontaneity and work is controlled and people's control to a 3:07:50.360 --> 3:07:53.680 degree to like being which happens in almost every revolution 3:07:53.760 --> 3:07:56.160 that we've seen. Right, It begins with the people, and 3:07:55.879 --> 3:07:58.760 then it becomes co opted by the state. It's wild 3:07:58.840 --> 3:08:01.480 to see like the equipment and weapons of their police 3:08:01.520 --> 3:08:04.120 on one hand, and then the poverty of yeah folks 3:08:04.360 --> 3:08:05.600 that they are policing on the other. 3:08:05.680 --> 3:08:08.959 And then this has also been Omlo's thing in Mexico, right, Like, 3:08:09.040 --> 3:08:11.000 even though he came in on the like Hugs not 3:08:11.080 --> 3:08:14.119 Bullets campaign, which for something comprehensible reasons, you still see 3:08:14.160 --> 3:08:17.039 like the fucking Washington Post writing about Omlo talking about 3:08:17.040 --> 3:08:18.600 how he was doing like hugs. 3:08:18.320 --> 3:08:21.920 Not bullets, Like she never she there was not a single. 3:08:21.640 --> 3:08:24.039 Day where he implemented that shit. She came in and 3:08:24.120 --> 3:08:26.840 immediately was like, hey, the army, do you want control 3:08:26.879 --> 3:08:28.200 of even more of the country. 3:08:29.160 --> 3:08:32.080 Yeah, Like, it was very funny when Amla came in, 3:08:32.160 --> 3:08:34.000 right and he was doing get like hugs not bullets 3:08:34.040 --> 3:08:37.080 the English translation, and then simultaneously I was getting press 3:08:37.080 --> 3:08:40.440 releases being like, we have deployed several thousand more troops 3:08:40.440 --> 3:08:42.760 to the Tijuana area, come to the parade, and I 3:08:42.800 --> 3:08:45.320 was like, good, no, look are they huggers? They send 3:08:45.320 --> 3:08:46.160 in their tactical cut. 3:08:46.280 --> 3:08:48.400 Lula does this exact same thing in Haiti, where he 3:08:48.440 --> 3:08:50.280 goes to Haiti and he plays soccer with these kids, 3:08:50.280 --> 3:08:52.160 and he says, we will show them another way. And 3:08:52.160 --> 3:08:54.680 then just like in the backgrounte are all the armored 3:08:54.760 --> 3:08:57.200 vehicles from b resilient occupation of Haiti. It's just like, wow, 3:08:57.360 --> 3:08:57.840 oh my. 3:08:57.920 --> 3:09:00.280 God, did this show them? Sound thing? 3:09:01.000 --> 3:09:05.080 Yeah? And so the tie between this absorption of socialist 3:09:05.120 --> 3:09:07.000 politics into the state, you know, and this sort of 3:09:07.040 --> 3:09:10.520 centralization and increasing of state violence is something that continues 3:09:10.560 --> 3:09:12.959 to today. And you know, we're now kind of in 3:09:13.040 --> 3:09:18.039 the last decades probably too strong, but roughly decade we're 3:09:18.320 --> 3:09:21.760 kind of seeing social democrats like who want to break 3:09:21.760 --> 3:09:23.840 out of this in the form of the kind of 3:09:23.879 --> 3:09:26.240 like moderate abolitionists. So these are the people who are 3:09:27.000 --> 3:09:28.680 you know, whose thing is like, Okay, we're going to 3:09:28.720 --> 3:09:30.800 defund the police and we're going to like reallocate their 3:09:30.840 --> 3:09:36.360 resources to like funding welfare programs. And this is like 3:09:36.480 --> 3:09:40.080 obviously this would be good. But if you know anything 3:09:40.080 --> 3:09:41.960 about what happened after twenty twenty, none of this stuff 3:09:42.000 --> 3:09:44.800 ever happened, right, No one ever defunded the police, right, Like, 3:09:44.840 --> 3:09:45.640 there was no sort. 3:09:45.520 --> 3:09:47.720 Of movement we defunded the libraries into. 3:09:47.520 --> 3:09:50.160 The Yeah, but even on a fundamental level, like, I 3:09:50.200 --> 3:09:53.920 don't believe that this can work. And the reason I 3:09:53.959 --> 3:09:55.960 don't believe that this can work is because in order 3:09:56.000 --> 3:09:58.840 to have a state that functions, you need an apparatus 3:09:58.840 --> 3:10:01.080 of violence. It can inflict it subjects. I'm going to 3:10:01.160 --> 3:10:01.680 turn here. 3:10:01.959 --> 3:10:02.640 Oh this is a joke. 3:10:02.680 --> 3:10:03.760 You're probably not gonna get. 3:10:04.000 --> 3:10:04.160 Oh. 3:10:04.240 --> 3:10:07.080 No, I'm going to turn here to feigned political philosopher 3:10:07.080 --> 3:10:11.600 Brennan Lee Bulligan quote. Laws are threats made by the 3:10:11.640 --> 3:10:15.080 dominant socioeconomic ethnic group in a given nation. It's just 3:10:15.120 --> 3:10:17.119 a promise of violence as an act in the police 3:10:17.120 --> 3:10:18.640 are basically an occupying army. 3:10:18.640 --> 3:10:22.320 You know what I mean? This is the I'm aware 3:10:22.360 --> 3:10:25.119 of this dude. He places to chess drackens on the internet. 3:10:25.280 --> 3:10:27.400 Occasionally he says something that's right. And you know, the 3:10:27.400 --> 3:10:31.800 important thing about this is that you know, without without 3:10:31.800 --> 3:10:35.439 the threat of violence behind it, right, laws are just suggestions. 3:10:35.480 --> 3:10:38.000 You can't have a state without an apparatus of violence. 3:10:38.080 --> 3:10:40.640 You can't stay in power without one. And this has 3:10:40.720 --> 3:10:43.880 always been the sort of central contradiction of social democracy. 3:10:43.959 --> 3:10:44.119 Right. 3:10:44.480 --> 3:10:46.680 In order for Walls to have his sort of like 3:10:47.040 --> 3:10:50.039 pretty sparkling programs, he needs to have the cops to 3:10:50.120 --> 3:10:52.320 destroy you if you attempt to do anything different. And 3:10:52.360 --> 3:10:55.839 this is what twenty twenty was, right. Twenty twenty was 3:10:55.840 --> 3:10:59.000 was the most serious uprising in the US, like the 3:10:59.000 --> 3:11:01.800 most serious challenge to the authority of the sort of 3:11:02.040 --> 3:11:06.120 draychnically anti black like settler American state, right, and it 3:11:06.160 --> 3:11:10.680 was something that promised something different and even in you know, 3:11:10.720 --> 3:11:13.640 and that meant that everyone, whether you were a fucking 3:11:14.080 --> 3:11:18.640 like hardline fascist or you know, you were Tim Walls, right, 3:11:18.800 --> 3:11:21.520 your one goal was to smash it and was to 3:11:21.560 --> 3:11:23.640 deploy state violent. The state violence you had in your hands, 3:11:23.640 --> 3:11:25.720 which in this case was a National Guard, was to 3:11:25.760 --> 3:11:27.640 send them in to make sure that these people never 3:11:27.640 --> 3:11:30.680 fucking burden their police station again. And that's what happens. 3:11:30.760 --> 3:11:36.039 Yeah, it's like obviously like the ability to have I've 3:11:36.040 --> 3:11:37.720 been thinking about this a lot because I've been writing 3:11:37.720 --> 3:11:41.000 a book and I'm really trying to get it fucking finished, 3:11:41.040 --> 3:11:44.400 so I've been writing it a lot. And like when 3:11:45.080 --> 3:11:48.080 a conflict, be it one within a country or between countries, 3:11:48.160 --> 3:11:52.000 stops being between states or about what the state should 3:11:52.000 --> 3:11:54.280 do and starts being about weather the state should be, 3:11:55.000 --> 3:11:58.680 then we see the entire state system like pivoting on 3:11:58.760 --> 3:12:01.520 all its suggesting more right and just being like, no, 3:12:01.600 --> 3:12:04.199 we cannot allow this to happen. And I think we've 3:12:04.200 --> 3:12:06.360 seen that domestically to a degree in the US. 3:12:06.440 --> 3:12:06.600 Right. 3:12:06.640 --> 3:12:10.040 But like the state can't abolish itself, state won't abolish itself. 3:12:10.120 --> 3:12:12.680 The scene qua non of the state its ability to 3:12:13.240 --> 3:12:14.920 lock you up, beat you up, or shoot you up 3:12:14.920 --> 3:12:17.520 if you do what they don't want. And that will 3:12:17.520 --> 3:12:19.440 always be the state as a matter. If it's got 3:12:19.480 --> 3:12:23.320 like a hammer and sickle or like your based fucking 3:12:23.920 --> 3:12:26.720 Vasha or Alassat or whatever, like, the state will still 3:12:26.760 --> 3:12:28.480 come and kill you if you become a threat to it. 3:12:29.400 --> 3:12:32.280 Yeah, And that's the solution to what hopefully will be 3:12:32.360 --> 3:12:35.760 the title of this episode. Why did Tim Wollz call 3:12:35.840 --> 3:12:37.760 the National Guard? And the answer is to make sure 3:12:37.800 --> 3:12:38.640 that you're never going. 3:12:38.480 --> 3:12:41.080 To be free. 3:12:42.200 --> 3:12:45.320 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:12:45.440 --> 3:12:47.320 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:12:48.240 --> 3:12:50.720 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:12:50.840 --> 3:12:53.520 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:12:53.520 --> 3:12:55.760 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 3:12:55.800 --> 3:12:59.400 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts 3:13:00.000 --> 3:13:02.320 and find sources for it could happen here. Updated monthly 3:13:02.600 --> 3:13:06.039 at coolzonemedia dot com Slash sources. Thanks for listening.