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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Trudio Muski to a noise to intro.

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Speaker 4: How do we do that? That's why you get bad?

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Speaker 1: Can hear them?

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Speaker 3: Okay? Okay, yeah, yeah, here we are. That's that's the introduction.

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Speaker 3: That's all you're getting, and you will be grateful for it.

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Speaker 3: It's it's me. It's Cherine Hi, Serene Hi, James Hi, Tarina.

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Speaker 3: What are we Are we doing vegetables today? Are we

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Speaker 3: doing genocide? Which part of the vegetable genoside spectrum wheel.

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Speaker 4: I feel like we're closer to vegetable than genocide, but

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Speaker 4: you can argue the opposite as well, because I get

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Speaker 4: eat it alive by these things.

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Speaker 3: So I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I think we're kind of in the middle here. I

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Speaker 4: think it's a good even middle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we've really split the difference. Look at us go. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's right. It's things to eat. Shrene live today is

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Speaker 3: flesh eating bacteria day. It's not does not have a

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Speaker 3: flesh eating bacteria of the episode I thought we were doing. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'd like to surprise you sometimes, just see how you act.

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Speaker 3: We're doing mosquitos, actually, shreen mosquitos yep, yep. Little guys,

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Speaker 3: little friendly guys.

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Speaker 4: Who they're not friendly and they're always little, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some of them are absolute chunks. Yeah, I've seen

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Speaker 3: some big dogs recently. Did you know the mosquito shreene

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Speaker 3: is the most deadly animal in the world.

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Speaker 4: Really?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an animal. Yeah, I mean it's in the

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Speaker 3: animal kingdom, right, I suppose it's insect nuisance.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not insect on animals and nuisance. I guess

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Speaker 4: I couldn't realize it was considered the most deadly animal.

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Speaker 4: Why is that just from like valeria?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and all the other diseases at vectors. Right, it

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Speaker 3: can do parasites, bacteria, and viruses. So it's really like

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Speaker 3: a triple threat when you can get like chicken gun. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Dane gay, I've got a whole list of them.

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Speaker 4: Why are they still around?

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Speaker 3: That is an interesting question, Shereed.

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Speaker 4: I've always wondered that, like bees have benefits, like they

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Speaker 4: make they're cute little guys, and they make honey, and

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Speaker 4: they just want to pollinate around.

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Speaker 3: Lots of mosquitoes do too. Lots of them also, or

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Speaker 3: they don't make honey. Lots of species of mosquito just

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Speaker 3: feed of flowers. They're not out there to get you.

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Speaker 3: It is just the lady mosquitoes of certain species. What

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Speaker 3: was the lady insects man? The queen bee?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the black widow.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Yeah, it's it's true. Yeah, it's I

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Speaker 3: guess maybe they're a matriarchal society, you know, and.

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Speaker 4: They're like, yeah, I guess technically a spider is not insect, right,

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Speaker 4: it's like a rat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wants to correct me on the reddits. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: please please post your genus and species stuff on the

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Speaker 3: on the reddit. I would love that. So, yeah, mosquito

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Speaker 3: say they stacking some bondies about three quarters of a

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Speaker 3: million people a year in fact, which is quite a

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Speaker 3: lot of people for then if you, yeah.

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Speaker 4: I guess we're closure to the genocide in on the spectrum.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Sadly, I know the mosquitoes don't

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Speaker 3: have so much agency, so I don't feel like they're

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Speaker 3: quite as like evil. You know, the word of course

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Speaker 3: a moscow no moscuite is a fly in Spanish.

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Speaker 4: And then of course, like why I don't know that, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: might know that, you know, I don't know that.

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Speaker 3: I'm just gonna look this up. Mosquitoes or origin word. Well, now,

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Speaker 3: moscuite is a fly. Ito is a diminutive ending, so

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Speaker 3: it means like a little fly, oh, little fly, yeah,

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Speaker 3: a fly lit.

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Speaker 4: And there's also a Spanish word that means long legged.

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Speaker 3: Hold on from mosquito.

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Speaker 4: The Spanish called the mosquitoes mosquetos, and the Native Hispanic

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Speaker 4: Americans call them zenkudos. Mosquito is Spanish or Portuguese, and

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Speaker 4: it means a little fly, while zen kudos is a

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Speaker 4: Spanish word that means long legged.

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Speaker 3: Ah, okay, there we go and learning the etymology today

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Speaker 3: here and then I didn't have that. I just had

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Speaker 3: a little fly based on it being a little fly

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Speaker 3: in Spanish. Yeah, I like the long legged. Well we

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Speaker 3: have daddy long legs, I guess, but he's a mosquito. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So technically, mosquitoes are actually micro predators, which is kind

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Speaker 3: of a fun word. I feel like I've met some

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Speaker 3: micro predators in my time that they were not mosquitoes,

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Speaker 3: and that is because some of them thrive by drinking

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Speaker 3: human blood. Tell me about it. Yeah, that is the reason,

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Speaker 3: sharing that you have encountered mosquito, So I want to

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Speaker 3: I want to talk first about their life cycle and

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Speaker 3: then about their their predation on charene So mosquito. Say,

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Speaker 3: the eggs in stagnant water. That's water that's not moving, right,

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Speaker 3: I know some things, Jane. Okay, okay, not everyone knows

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Speaker 3: about stagnant water, Charine. There are listeners too. They might

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Speaker 3: not know. So their eggs hatch into lava, and the

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Speaker 3: lava become puber These stages are all aquatic, right, They

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Speaker 3: all happen in the stagnant water, right, And then the

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Speaker 3: adult mosquito hatches from the pupa and it hatches on

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Speaker 3: the surface and then it flies off and it sucks

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Speaker 3: up your evening.

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Speaker 4: I don't realize that you had anything to do with water.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why, like, did this not happen in La

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Speaker 3: a few years ago? They this council was like sending

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Speaker 3: people around San Diego to like scope out your garden

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Speaker 3: to see if you had standing water. Right, if that

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Speaker 3: did happen, I have no memory during arden peak. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: let's see. Uh maybe that's why, like it was peaked

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Speaker 3: like Zeka panic.

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Speaker 4: Oh that makes sense that that would happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it does. And we definitely get them, like

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Speaker 3: I have to put a little over side like a

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Speaker 3: thing that kills the eggs into my chicken water. If

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Speaker 3: I'm having a big standing thing of chicken water, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I try and have smaller and refresh it more frequently now.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, you definitely have to be careful of stagnant water.

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Speaker 3: And as we'll see, like one of the main ways

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Speaker 3: to control them is like limiting the amount of stagnant

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Speaker 3: water for some species only the females that a species

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Speaker 3: are the bloodsuckers, and in some cases they don't need

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Speaker 3: the blood and in other cases to lay their eggs

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Speaker 3: they need to have a blood meal as it's called,

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Speaker 3: which is which is a nice words unsettling. Okay. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So the mosquitoes that are vectors for human diseases, so

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Speaker 3: they're like the transportation vector vehicle for the disease between

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Speaker 3: one person and another those are the guys who often

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Speaker 3: need a little blood meal to lay their eggs. They

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Speaker 3: don't only attack people, actually, they sort of have a

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Speaker 3: preferred species, but in a pinch, they'll go after anything

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Speaker 3: with blood. And I've seen them get really thick on

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Speaker 3: cattle and stuff in the summer, or horses.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I can imagine that, yeah, because cows just sit there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if they're being mosquito attacked, they get pissed off,

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Speaker 3: but there's only so much they can do. In some cases,

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Speaker 3: I think it's horses. Equinumcephalitis is spread by mosquitos, so

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Speaker 3: they can actually get it. They can get diseases from

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Speaker 3: terrible little guys, and they can like literally die from

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Speaker 3: being overbitten. And if they get like completely swarmed on wow, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's like if they're unable to get away from them.

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Speaker 3: Because if you have a water tank, right, and then

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Speaker 3: mosquitos are breeding in the tank, it's where you want

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Speaker 3: to keep that tank moving like right.

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Speaker 4: So it's not stagnant water, because stagnant water means it's

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Speaker 4: not moving.

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Speaker 3: There. You go look at that actually and putting knowledge

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Speaker 3: into action. Let that be like one of those Guo

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Speaker 3: linga things. Where you learn a word then use it

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Speaker 3: in a sentence exactly. Yeah, all I do is use

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Speaker 3: that word.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So yeah, musket has come out adorn or dusk,

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Speaker 3: which is to say they are crepuscular, another word that

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Speaker 3: everyone already knows.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I did learn that word. I did like

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Speaker 4: an audiobook and I had to look this word up,

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Speaker 4: and so I know what it means only because of that.

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Speaker 4: But it's a very interesting word. I will say it is,

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Speaker 4: isn't It sounds like creepy, Like I would have no

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Speaker 4: idea what it meant if I didn't look it up,

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Speaker 4: Like there's nothing that clues me in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pusculate. It sounds like yeah, because like diurnal nocturnal,

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Speaker 3: you can kind of if you know one, you can

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Speaker 3: work out. But crepusculos coming out of fucking left field.

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Speaker 4: That's creps.

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Speaker 3: Does that mean?

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Speaker 6: Which?

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Speaker 3: Remind me?

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Speaker 4: It means that they're active don and dust or that

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Speaker 4: they're eating it.

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Speaker 3: I think it means they, Yeah, they are. I'm not

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Speaker 3: actually sure if it means it active or they're eating

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Speaker 3: That's a good question.

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Speaker 4: Because I feel like I've heard cats are also described

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Speaker 4: as that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, cats are definitely that way. Animal appearing active in

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Speaker 3: Twilight active.

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Speaker 4: Wow, that's very poetic. The first animal I see here

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Speaker 4: as a cat, Yeah, lion, American woodcock, firefly, short eared owl.

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Speaker 3: Cool. Yeah, they real the pantheon and animals, So they

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Speaker 3: do the feeding at doorn a dusk and they actually

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Speaker 3: use compounds in your exhale breast to sniff you out,

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Speaker 3: so they are they are hunting for people. They specifically

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Speaker 3: prefer to feed on people who have type O blood,

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Speaker 3: an abundance of skin bacteria, high body heat, and pregnant women. Hmm,

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Speaker 3: if you fit one or all of those criteria, I

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Speaker 3: guess there's that because people like Definitely, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I have type of blood. Yeah, me too. I feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm victimized like more than most people by the

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Speaker 3: mosquito and they choose me. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I feel like me and my mom are both typo

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Speaker 4: and we get you know, live, So that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they somehow they can smell that on you.

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Speaker 4: I'm always cold, though, so I don't think I have

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Speaker 4: high body heat. Not always cold, but I can. I

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Speaker 4: don't know I have better circulation, not pregnant. I guess

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Speaker 4: I must have an abundance of skin bay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's got to be a skin bacteria and ensuring

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Speaker 3: by process of deduction.

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Speaker 4: No, but typo makes sense. I think like that is enough.

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Speaker 3: I suppose. Yeah, they because when it's a lot of them,

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Speaker 3: you know, and when one of them starts feeding on you,

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Speaker 3: that's going to trigger more of them to come feeding

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Speaker 3: on you.

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Speaker 4: How because they're like, look at this, this idiot, let's

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Speaker 4: go feed off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, look at this. It is delicious blood that

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Speaker 3: is TYPEO. Yeah got it? Yeah, yum yum. And then

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Speaker 3: they're giving off their little feeding sort of vibes. And

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Speaker 3: then i'll mosquitoes come, which can be useful to trap them.

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Speaker 3: But that's a fair point. The trapping of mosquitoes, as

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Speaker 3: I learned when I was doing this, very fucking interesting.

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Speaker 4: Actually, ooh, okay, tell me more. Actually maybe not now,

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Speaker 4: but whenever you get to it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well we'll get to it, tune. They have a

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Speaker 3: very interesting set of mouth parts and including the labium,

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Speaker 3: which is like a gutter shaped tube mouth tube, I guess,

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Speaker 3: and it's super sharp and they can use it to

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Speaker 3: saw through your skin painlessly, so you never that's why

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Speaker 3: you don't feel.

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Speaker 4: So that's that's the needle looking thing. Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 4: the little thing they poke you with.

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Speaker 3: Then well they do that, then they have little needle

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Speaker 3: looking things that kind of that it contained within the

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Speaker 3: gutter shape that they used to suck out your blood. Gross.

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Speaker 3: Their saliva stops your blood from clotting, and it prevents

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Speaker 3: vascular constriction in the area where they're biting, so they

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Speaker 3: can get a little bit extra blood before it clots.

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Speaker 3: I guess some people can become desensitized to their bites

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Speaker 3: over time. If you're getting bit and all the time,

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Speaker 3: others can become more sensitive and then increased sensitivity is

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Speaker 3: known as Sketos syndrome Skeeter syndrome. Look up and what

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Speaker 3: it looks like. Because I'm very sensitive to them. Okay,

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Speaker 3: maybe we've got two diagnosed es in one episode. We've

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Speaker 3: got skin bacteria and Sketa syndrome.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what I need to have to have

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Speaker 4: Skeeter syndrome, but I will say I'm extreme insensitive to

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Speaker 4: mosquito bites. When I get bitten, they become gigantic.

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Speaker 3: I won't even know.

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Speaker 4: I'll won't itch them because I know not to at

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Speaker 4: this point, but I'll get these like gigantic welts essentially

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Speaker 4: and they're bright pink, and then over the course of

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Speaker 4: like a week or something, and they become bright red

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Speaker 4: and they look like someone put paint on my leg.

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Speaker 4: It's like it's a crazy color of red. And then

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Speaker 4: when they eventually do stop itching, I'll have that welt

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Speaker 4: there in that red mark for like.

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Speaker 3: Months, damn months. It's like it becomes like this weird scar. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you could be a syndrome, I guess so.

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Speaker 4: I will say when I was a kid in Syria,

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Speaker 4: when we would go visit there, they have so many

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Speaker 4: mesquita I got you alive because we'd go there in

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Speaker 4: the summer too. But there was one time I got

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Speaker 4: bit in on my eyelid like this, that sucks, and

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Speaker 4: so I genuinely couldn't open my eye for like a

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Speaker 4: week and a half.

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Speaker 3: That was the worst one. I think I'm like that

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Speaker 3: with bee stings, like they they swell up like crazy.

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Speaker 3: Like I don't think I'm like anaphylactic, but a couple

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Speaker 3: of times. One time I was racing in Laguna Seca,

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Speaker 3: which is like a car racing track in Monterey, and

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Speaker 3: I'm racing along, and I guess I'm riding along with

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Speaker 3: my mouth open. It's just just like you know, thriving

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Speaker 3: and a mosquito flew in and bit me. I do

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Speaker 3: a mosquito a bee, and my whole face just was

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Speaker 3: like in your mouth. Yeah, it was crazy. It was bad, Shane, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was fucked. One had just stung me before, like

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Speaker 3: the extent which I swell at when beasting me. I

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Speaker 3: got stung in the leg on a training ride and

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Speaker 3: I had to upgrade to like exit shorts because like

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Speaker 3: my thigh just become like yeah, and then one got

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Speaker 3: me in the mouth.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Shit, it was a bad day. I had epipain, I

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Speaker 3: had I think I had some ivy bedded drill at

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Speaker 3: some point. Oh yeah, it was fucking well.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm glad you're not in a phylactic, but

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Speaker 4: it's pretty close, I guess.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's better you can get one time I got.

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Speaker 3: I got stung in a face when I was trying

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Speaker 3: to go to lecture as well, and like walked in

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Speaker 3: with like elephant man face and my stream Well we're

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Speaker 3: just like, dude, it's.

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Speaker 4: Like those photos or videos you see of like animals

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Speaker 4: like a dog at a to b and their faces

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Speaker 4: like gigantic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is uh it's dogs. Do you love

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Speaker 3: to eat peas?

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Speaker 4: I will say, I don't know if you've ever done

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Speaker 4: twenty three and me, but I did it years and

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Speaker 4: years ago for another show I was on and on

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Speaker 4: twenty three and meters. You can select if you want,

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Speaker 4: like health traits as well as like ancestral traits or

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Speaker 4: whatever like yeah, and on that it said I am

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Speaker 4: more likely to get a bitten by mosquitoes they gay.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it just need your blood type. But I didn't

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Speaker 4: give them my blood and even my spit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's crazy. Maybe that's something

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Speaker 3: in your book time. I don't know. We've just discovered

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Speaker 3: that Shream is on a eugenics podcast.

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Speaker 4: No, it was as for my podcast that was about

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Speaker 4: this is tea?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, some real problematic folks do love twenty three

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Speaker 3: in me. It's very funny when the white nationalists gone

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Speaker 3: twenty three in me and find out how they get upsets. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I love that and it is always fun to see.

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Speaker 3: So the real problem with mosquitos is not just that

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Speaker 3: they make you a trip, but they're vectors for disease.

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Speaker 3: They infect seven hundred million people a year with their

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Speaker 3: little bitey mouths. They can spread all kinds of diseases,

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Speaker 3: including viruses, parasites, and bacteria. Some of their greatest hits

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Speaker 3: include yellow fever, Dangay malaria, Tuderimia zeka, chicken gunya, and

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Speaker 3: West Nile virus. Speaking from experience, some of those are

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Speaker 3: really shit and you are best avoiding all of those.

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Speaker 3: That's going to be my advice to you as a doctor.

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Speaker 3: In one European history, it really fucking sucks to get

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Speaker 3: some of these. I've had some diseases from some mosquitos,

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Speaker 3: and I would not recommend. The mosquitoes don't actually get

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Speaker 3: sick themselves, and it's like it's immune system can destroy

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Speaker 3: the virus, but if it bites someone else and then

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Speaker 3: bites you before it's immune system destroys the virus' genetic code,

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Speaker 3: you can get sick and at some parasites. Apparently malaria

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Speaker 3: can make mosquitoes more apt to go biting. It's interesting.

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Speaker 3: It kind of turns them into zombie brain mosquitos. That's

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Speaker 3: how I like to think about it. With malaria, which

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Speaker 3: is kind of the main mosquito vector disease. I guess

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Speaker 3: that we think about the parasite replicates in the liver

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Speaker 3: cells and then moves about by the bloodstream. If you

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Speaker 3: get bitten again, the blood could then pass that malaria

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Speaker 3: to the next victim of the mosquito. I'm going on

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Speaker 3: a trip soon for work. I'll probably be on it

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Speaker 3: when you will hear this, And like, because people are

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Speaker 3: traveling more, all these different diseases are becoming more common. Right,

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Speaker 3: They're endemic in one area, and then people come from

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Speaker 3: that area to another area, and then mosquitos are hopping

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Speaker 3: around when they're in a new area. That then thats

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Speaker 3: rereading in that area. So I was talking to some folks,

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Speaker 3: like on the areas where migrants travel north, all the

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Speaker 3: types of malaria are now currently present, which is great

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Speaker 3: because you've got people from all over the world, right,

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Speaker 3: and then the mosquitoes are hopping from someone from China

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Speaker 3: to someone who's come from Mauritania and spreading their little

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Speaker 3: mosquito vector diseases around. So that is bad treating. Do

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Speaker 3: you know what else is bad?

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry my mind was so blank. But ads are

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Speaker 4: They're not bad. Ads are great. As are so.

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Speaker 3: Good that we love them. Yay, ads, Okay, we're back,

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Speaker 3: and I want to talk about how we stop the

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Speaker 3: mosquito menace, please help. So I'm going to talk about

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Speaker 3: eliminating them, and then I'm going to talk about some

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Speaker 3: products and services actually that you can avail yourself off.

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this a lot recently for work reasons, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: doing some jungle travel in the next few months. So

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Speaker 3: how do we prevent them from biting us? First of all,

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Speaker 3: we can stop them having little useful pools of stagnant

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Speaker 3: water to replicate in right Like, this means like, if

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Speaker 3: you're like me, One of my friends referred to my

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Speaker 3: my garden as a quote Alaska yard, which I think

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Speaker 3: is a is a way of saying that it's a

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Speaker 3: mess and there are lots of like car parts and

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Speaker 3: like little little things that I am fixing soon, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I guess having an Alaska yard is bad for

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Speaker 3: the mosquitos, like especially things like tires, right Like, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you have a big car tire, water pools in there,

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Speaker 3: and they can have a little breed in there, same

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Speaker 3: as buckets in marshy areas, what people do is they

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Speaker 3: dig ditches that allows water to move so that water

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Speaker 3: doesn't sit completely still, and then introducing certain fish. It

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Speaker 3: can also help. Certain fish will eat, including the mosquito

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Speaker 3: fish will eat the lava of the mosquito tilapia. Also

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Speaker 3: this so like you can have a nice little if

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Speaker 3: you're a person who eats fish, a nice still situation

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Speaker 3: where you're reducing the disease burden. And also like providing

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Speaker 3: a food source, which is something they're working on, that

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Speaker 3: you can drain swamps. Of course, Donald Trump famously has

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Speaker 3: drained the swamp right, yeah, I hear no malaria do

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Speaker 3: you see anymore because of Donald Trump? But doing so

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Speaker 3: obviously destroys an important habitat. Certainly you don't want to

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Speaker 3: just be draining swamps. I was reading about something in

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Speaker 3: Florida they do called rotational impound management, where they kind

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Speaker 3: of allow water levels to fluctuate and then they have

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Speaker 3: these clever little gates that mean that that other species

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Speaker 3: like the fish and the crustaceans can move about that

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Speaker 3: they're keeping them water moving to stop the little mosquito eggs.

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Speaker 3: For me, the other way to do it is to

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Speaker 3: try and kill them, right, So, there are various ways

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Speaker 3: of doing that. One of them is to create an

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Speaker 3: environment where they would want to lay their eggs, but

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Speaker 3: then have that environment kill their eggs. So there are

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Speaker 3: various at home ways of doing this, so like you

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Speaker 3: could make a stagnant water thing and then blitz up

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Speaker 3: the eggs or filter them out, or you can put

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Speaker 3: things with oversides in there which to kill the eggs.

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Speaker 3: Some of them also kill the mosquitos when they come

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Speaker 3: and lay their eggs. You can also use their little

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Speaker 3: hunting senses against them, right, so you can create an

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Speaker 3: environment that attracts them either by seeming like a person

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Speaker 3: or by seeming like a good place for them to breed,

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Speaker 3: and then you can filter out the eggs from where

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Speaker 3: they lay them right, or you can kill them when

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Speaker 3: they come on in. There are things called lava sides.

404
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 3: Maybe that's what I'm using with my chicken thing actually

405
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,199
Speaker 3: that destroy the lava. There are little bricks that you

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Speaker 3: dissolve in your water. And there are some pretty low

407
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 3: risk insecticides that you can use, and there are also

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Speaker 3: higher risk in sexicides, or at least underpopular intexticides. And

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Speaker 3: this is where a friend of the Cauzone media network

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Speaker 3: DDT comes in. Are you familiar with DDT Treed?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 3: There are friends, Yeah, there are friends. We love DDT

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Speaker 3: Big Appetize on pod We love them because until about

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Speaker 3: sixty years ago, the US government love to DDT. Right

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00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 3: it's an insecticide. They would put it in walls, in mattresses,

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Speaker 3: people rubbed their pets with it. For a while, people

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Speaker 3: thought they treated polio. They would even go through towns

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Speaker 3: spraying down whole neighborhoods with DDT. Right, and people kind

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Speaker 3: of became aware the DDT actually isn't a great idea

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Speaker 3: both pre ecological and health reasons about sixty years ago,

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Speaker 3: when Rachel Carson published a book called Silent Spring. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of one of the foundational texts of the environmental movement, right,

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Speaker 3: And I think people often credit like Rachel Carson with

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Speaker 3: being the only person that that's not necessarily true. Like

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00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 3: you can look at migrant farm workers actually and see

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Speaker 3: that they have been for a long time being Like,

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's great that you're dosing us with

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Speaker 3: this pesticide all the time. Like maybe maybe stop spraying

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Speaker 3: us with the DDT. You stopped playing the places. I

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Speaker 3: want to quote a really good piece there in the

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Speaker 3: New Republic on DDT. We now know that DDT causes

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Speaker 3: tumors in myce and rats. It thins birds eggs to

433
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,719
Speaker 3: the point that mothers indiversally crushed their gestating offspring. It

434
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 3: may disrupt bird sense of orientation, sending them out to

435
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 3: see to die. It fundamentally alters the reproductive ordinance of

436
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 3: a array of critters. It can poison animals even decades

437
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 3: after spraying has ended. Further, a growing body of evidence

438
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 3: has linked DT to numerous forms of cancer in humans,

439
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 3: especially breast cancer. Studies have shown how the levels of

440
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 3: DDT in our bodies track inequalities in human society. For instance,

441
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 3: there are higher DDT levels in black people than in whites,

442
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 3: and higher levels in poor people than in rich ones.

443
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 4: Sounds like you reliant to me when you said that

444
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 4: there are friends.

445
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like within the cool zone media network

446
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 3: of making podcasts about evil shit DDT I think fits perfect.

447
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 3: That's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. There's recently like a resurgence

448
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,719
Speaker 3: in I guess like people standing DDT again and then

449
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 3: questioning some of it, like research around it. But we

450
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 3: know for sure that it's ecologically damaging, and what we

451
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 3: don't know is the consequences of wiping out a bunch

452
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 3: of species in the ecosystem. So we probably don't want

453
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 3: to use DDT. One thing we can do to kill

454
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 3: them is they introduce predators, which is kind of cool.

455
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 3: Tilapia is one predator. Dragonflies or another. I love a dragonfly.

456
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 3: Big interesting flies. So like in Bikina Faso, they're working

457
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 3: on a fungus with a mosquito specific neurotoxin, which is

458
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 3: kind of cool. It can just grow and kill the mosquitos.

459
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 3: The World Mosquito programs also trialing a bacteria that when

460
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 3: mosquitos carry it, it amps up their immune system, so

461
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 3: like they kill the virus or the parasite or whatever

462
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 3: it is more quickly, so then they're less lightly to

463
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 3: be vectors. There's also programs which introduce male mosquitos which

464
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 3: are not able to have kids either they're sterile or

465
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 3: they're breeding results in eggs that won't hatch, so that's

466
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 3: kind of interesting control the population that way. And they

467
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 3: also have these really interesting genetically modified mosquitos that need

468
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 3: antibiotic tetracycline to grow. So they raise a batch in

469
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 3: the lab and gives them the tetracycline that they need right,

470
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 3: and then they let them out to breed and then

471
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: when they read because they're young don't have tetracycline that

472
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 3: they don't grow and they don't make it. It's really

473
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: interesting to think about. Like some folks are advocating for

474
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 3: completely eradicating them, just wiping them off the face of

475
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 3: the planet, which would seem to have many benefits, right

476
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: with all these diseases that they vector. I'm one of

477
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: those people. Yeah, you're a mosquito genocider. I found it's

478
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 3: interesting pieces that they're like a forest's defense mechanism against humans.

479
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 3: Like if we look at that, like the ecosystem's.

480
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 4: Way of being like get out of here, yeah.

481
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 3: Like leaves this place alone. Yeah, which is interesting, But

482
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 3: like I know, it's hard because the people who mostly

483
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: die from mosquito vector diseases and the people with the

484
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 3: least access to resources, right, right, Yeah, even things like

485
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 3: you know, when you're very sick with some of these things,

486
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: you need to be you know, kept hydrated and kept

487
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 3: cool as your temperature gets up and stuff, and you

488
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 3: don't have AC and you maybe you can't get an

489
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 3: IV or whatever, like a very preventable death could occur,

490
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 3: right and so right, it's hard, real hard for me

491
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 3: sitting in America to be like, no, we shouldn't. But

492
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: I guess I understand that argument. But if we go

493
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 3: about it by fucking dousing whole areas and DDT again,

494
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 3: then that's not great either, right, that can have it.

495
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: That can then can have it downside. Anyone else has

496
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 3: its downside, shrim It's having to pivot to add every

497
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 3: ten to fifteen minutes in this job that we do.

498
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 3: So we're going to do it now we're back. We

499
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 3: are entering the final trimester of our podcast. And yeah,

500
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: if you like that, I'd like to. I'd like to

501
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: think of them as trimesters, the last slice of this

502
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 3: little podcast cake for you guys. So I wanted to

503
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 3: present some little strategies I like to use please when

504
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 3: I am going to places where I am worried about

505
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 3: being eaten alive by the little flies.

506
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 4: Wait, okay, you see all these like di I like

507
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 4: this is how track mosquito somewhere else. But like none

508
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 4: of those have been mentioned, So is that all bullshit?

509
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 3: What do they taught me through it? I don't know.

510
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 4: I have to look it up, but I feel like

511
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 4: I've seen like little things where it's like put this

512
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 4: bucket of water here, or like put like lemon or

513
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 4: honey or like something to attract like general insects and

514
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 4: then mosquitos or like even like light can attract mosquitoes.

515
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 4: They put like a light somewhere. But this sounds all

516
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: like bullshit.

517
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, you can do that. You can even use

518
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: a fan, right because I know it's very good flyers

519
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 3: like they you can just kind of blow them away

520
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 3: from you. So yeah, in terms of like small scale

521
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: mosquito prevention, yeah, I'm going to get into some of those, Okay, cool.

522
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 3: The most useful thing for me is mosquito in its actually,

523
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: so like in the jungle, I like to sleep in

524
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: a hammock. This one called the Jungle Nest. The Eagles

525
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 3: Nest outfit is make that has like a built in

526
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: mosquito net. That's nice. Yeah, it's really nice. Like I

527
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 3: like it so I don't have to fuck around with

528
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 3: like draping it and worry about like the little gaps,

529
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: right yeah, And I use that a lot. I use

530
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 3: a whole little system that they make, and it's it's

531
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 3: really nice. If I'm in hotels, seat a Summit makes

532
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 3: a sleeping bagliner. A I like to take seking bagline

533
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 3: out when I'm going places like I got fucking fleas

534
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: from a hotel bed in Rwanda. Oh no, yeah, it

535
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: was bad, like if you think mosquito had to try

536
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: it having And for people who haven't seen me, I'm

537
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 3: a hairy person, like have long hair and had a beard,

538
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 3: and fleas were just upon me and it was bad.

539
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: So I like to take a little sleeping bagliner. Now

540
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: that's treated with a mosquito repellent. But it must be

541
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 3: safe for skin and stuff though, right, yeah, yeah, it's

542
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 3: it's embedded in the fabric called permethrine. We'll talk about

543
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: it in a second. It's the last thing I use

544
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 3: is a head bugnet. I'm a massive advocate for the

545
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: head bugnet. I know you look like a complete lemon,

546
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: but like it's just I don't like to be bitten

547
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 3: in the face. No, I have been bit in the face,

548
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: so yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, take it from Charine

549
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 3: bite survivor. If you have a brimmed hat, it's much

550
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 3: nicer because it sort of hangs in front of your face. Then,

551
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: but I wear with these all the time. If you

552
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,239
Speaker 3: like to see wildlife, it's nice to you because it's

553
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: kind of camouflaging, like it takes the glare off your face.

554
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 3: You get really bad in sticks up in Scotland, like

555
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 3: when I've been out there in the summer time at

556
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: Form one, and I wear a lot in California, like

557
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: there are some places like to hike where we have

558
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: year round water here, but it's definitely pretty gross by

559
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 3: like the end of the summer. You know, it's like

560
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: it's been sitting for a while. But water is a

561
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: bit constraint on your on your hiking out here, right,

562
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 3: so you kind of need it. So I'll go down

563
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 3: there and filter my water. But I wear my little

564
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: bug face net and it works great. I love it.

565
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 3: So after that, you can also do repellance. These come

566
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: in two forms, so it's the one that you put

567
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 3: on your clothes and the ones that you put on

568
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 3: your body. Right. The one that you put on your

569
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: clothes is called permethrine. The thing with permethrin is that

570
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: it's a neurotoxin for cats, which is very bad for cats.

571
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 3: So Soya makes a little spray bottle of it and

572
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: you can spray it on your own clothes and treat

573
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 3: them right. But if you have cats you have you

574
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 3: must do this outside like you can't do in your house.

575
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: With your cats. It's safe once it's dry, so that

576
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 3: you can spray them, let them be on your washing

577
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 3: line or what have you, and then and then when

578
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: it's dry you can you can bring them aside and

579
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 3: then it's safe, honestly, Like you can also send them

580
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 3: off to a company I think it's called Insect Shield

581
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: and they'll spray them for you. In the way they

582
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: do it somehow bonds it for much longer, like normally

583
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: at lasts for about six washes, but with them you

584
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 3: can get like ten times as many washes. You can

585
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: also buy shit, like I've just got a hoodie from

586
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 3: a company called First Light, who make like fancy hunting

587
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: stuff that has the insect stuff built in. Yeah. I

588
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: like that because then if you have a hoodie as well,

589
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: you can put you know, you get like a lot

590
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,239
Speaker 3: of coverage. But like, if a cat likes sat on

591
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: this clothing, it's fine now because it's bonded. Yeah, your

592
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 3: cat could like go and curl up in it and

593
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: then have a sleep and things. So even if it

594
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: gets wet, that's okay. It's when the permethro in itself

595
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: is wet the first application, that's when it's risky. Okay,

596
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: I see, I see. If you're going to do that,

597
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 3: you want to do your socks as well, because they

598
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: fucking love to bite around the ankle.

599
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 4: Yep, my legs are their prime target.

600
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's their their favorite area to bite here. I

601
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 3: don't know why.

602
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 4: I mean, they're probably easier to access and you're less

603
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 4: likely to see them, I suppose, like and also I

604
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 4: feel like if you're sitting, you're moving probably your upper

605
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: body more than your lower body.

606
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 3: So it's like, I don't know, Yeah, it's still like

607
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: it sneak in their lasted. So things to like repel them.

608
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: One of them is have you seen the thermo cells?

609
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with them? It's a brain called off

610
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 3: that makes them too. It emits something called metha fluthern

611
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: and Metha Lutheran is like a non toxic I was

612
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: looking at the EPA guidelines for this. It's mostly non toxic.

613
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: It should be fine in your house, but it is

614
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: toxic to aquatic invertebrates, fish and bees. Because with all

615
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 3: these things that, I don't want to just be spraying

616
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: and insecticide into the world, right like yeah, and damaging

617
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: like innocent non micro predators. So what the thermo cell

618
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: does is you know what people have those little things

619
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 3: in their houses where they put an essential oil in

620
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: and it puffs and picture house not nice. Yeah, it's

621
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: like that. It's like that, okay, and it does that.

622
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 3: But with this metaphlutherin and they work okay, like if

623
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: you're in your tent stuff they work like they don't

624
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: work if it's windy, they don't really work. They can

625
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: be nice, like if you set them up and let

626
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,239
Speaker 3: them get going for a while and then come into

627
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: a space, they can be really nice. And then you

628
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 3: have other things like a fan. You can have the

629
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: electric traps, right, which kind of bring even electrocute them.

630
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 4: How do those electric traps attract them? Just the light

631
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 4: or like what I.

632
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: Think it's a UV light because yeah, it has that

633
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: really bright I actually don't know they think that electrocutes

634
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: them like when they land on it, right, Yeah, I

635
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: think it's the light.

636
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

637
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: Those seem to be like a more multi purpose insect

638
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: zappa though, right, So I've not preferred those. I don't

639
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 3: want to be killing everything else, like just try and

640
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 3: you know, leave no trace. And then the last thing

641
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: is for some reason I've become obsessed with this recently,

642
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: the different creams you can put on yourself to stop

643
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: mosquitoes going away. Ideally you canind of layer up all

644
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 3: the things right to limit, you know, like the amount

645
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: of just chemicals you have to rub on your skin.

646
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: Deep is the most popular one. People are pretty familiar

647
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: with Deep. It was developed by the US Army in

648
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: the forties. The big thing with D is it's really

649
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 3: hard on plastics. So I'm not a contact lens or

650
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 3: glass wearer. I don't know a contact lens is made

651
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 3: of glass or plastic? Isn't the wrong person? Man? Okay, yeah,

652
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: I have worn both, and I have no idea. I'm

653
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 3: going to say, like a that's with that perfect vision.

654
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 3: I have won neither, So I don't know.

655
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't think it's crazy who was made

656
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 4: out of glass or plastic?

657
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 8: Right?

658
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 4: What are contact lenses?

659
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: Welcome to the portion of podcast. We're sure he googles

660
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: the thing.

661
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 4: I guess there are types of plastic, but not the

662
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 4: kind of plastic that comes to mind when you hear

663
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: the word high tech polymers that allow oxygen to flow through.

664
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: To reach the cornea body body blow. So I guess, yeah, sure, yeah,

665
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: be careful with your deep.

666
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: They actually there's a question that says our contacts glass

667
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 4: or plastics. So I guess I'm a dummy because that's

668
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 4: a legitimate question.

669
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: No, it's a good question. That just like sounds crazy

670
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 3: to me. Anyway, I don't know if the deep can

671
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: get to them. It can definitely, Oh yeah, it does

672
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 3: contact lenses. There we go. It can damage your contact lenses.

673
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 3: It definitely will mess with your rain gear, your tent,

674
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: your sunglasses, especially in higher concentrations. So like deep you

675
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: can get ten percent deep, you can get one hundred

676
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 3: percent deep. You get maximum protection at thirty percent deep.

677
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: So after that it's just you're buying yourself more time

678
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: between applications. Also, it gets more concentrated your risking damaging

679
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: your gear. And like, I don't like the way it

680
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: makes my mouth feel, like with the spray. If you

681
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 3: spray it, you get this like metallic dry mouth. It

682
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: seems like you're killing yourself when you walk into a

683
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: cloud of deep.

684
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: Okay, cool, cool, cool.

685
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: I like pickcard in. It's a synthetic version of a

686
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: element that's found in pepper plants. Yeah, that's what I

687
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: usually use when I go camp. Yeah, there a little

688
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 3: Soayer makes a really nice piccard. Eventually it's got like

689
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 3: a blue label on the bottle. Yeah, that's what I use. Yeah, Soyer. Yeah,

690
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: we like Sawyer. I got to try. The reason I've

691
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: I've suggested so many Soy products is because the Sawyer Foundation.

692
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: We're there in the Marshal Islands when I was there. Nice,

693
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: I mean I like their sh yeah, I do. I

694
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: think they're really cool company. Actually, they seem to make

695
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 3: stuff that like solves problems and then just keep making it.

696
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: They don't make a new thing every year, different color

697
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 3: and trying and rehype it, you know. Like they did

698
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: really cool shap in the Marshal Islands. It's cool to

699
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: see and like. Yeah, as companies go, I think they're

700
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: pretty right on. They also gave us some water filters

701
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 3: to help with the migrants the other day, which is

702
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 3: very nice of them. We needed some water filters for

703
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 3: folks crossing the border and they gave us some. So

704
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: they are my friends. But yeah, their one is good.

705
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: They make a nice sun cream actually as well, so

706
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: you can you can double dip there. I'm sure it's

707
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 3: not up to the standards of your your imported sun creams, but.

708
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 4: That means sunscreen British translation.

709
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, if you can't make the logical leap from

710
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: suncream to sunscreen, yeah, that is. That is what I'm

711
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: talking about.

712
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: In the British defense though it's definitely a cream and

713
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 4: not a screen.

714
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's on us. Yeah, another incidents of British excellence.

715
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god podcast to be fair one of the

716
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: few what have we got? We've got that we have

717
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: the baking show and that's about it. Yeah, kind of

718
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 3: think of much else. So there are also like natural ones,

719
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: you know, like citronella is the one that people like.

720
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 3: But I have just found that those don't work very well.

721
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 4: I feel like it's a hit or miss. Yeah I

722
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 4: was gonna say, I feel like it's like kind of

723
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 4: for fun.

724
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you'll feel great that you've done something.

725
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

726
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: I think they just work by being strong smells that

727
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 3: kind of mask your other smells.

728
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 9: Hm.

729
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: And you can get synthetic and natural plant oils, and

730
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: there are people who will sell you bracelets with like

731
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: a little thing that's supposed to secrete the citronella.

732
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 4: Oh, I use I've used those. The ones I have

733
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 4: used look like like phone cords that are all spirally. Yeah,

734
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 4: the little bracelets and I have filled my ankles, put

735
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 4: them on my wrists. Sometimes they work and sometimes I

736
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 4: look like a but I don't know, so it was

737
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 4: worth I've tried everything.

738
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes I just burned incense and that kind of works. Again,

739
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 3: I think this kind of it's a strong smell and

740
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 3: the mosquitoes don't like it. Okay, that makes sense. Having

741
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: incense and a box fan is not a bad solution.

742
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 3: Like I've done that in places where you know, nothing

743
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: else was available. That's pretty good. But yeah, if you're

744
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: in a place where this is a problem, and it's

745
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: becoming a bigger problem, right, the world is getting hotter,

746
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: the climate is changing. These swampy marsh areas are drying up,

747
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: so we're getting more stagnant water and less through flow.

748
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: Like this is becoming a bigger problem, and our healthcare

749
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: system is continuing to be fucked and getting worse, certainly

750
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 3: in the United States, but so United Kingdom and other places.

751
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, be careful of the mosquitoes. Remember to do

752
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 3: your sun cream before you're before your mosquito cream or

753
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: lotion or whatever you're using, screen your mosquito screen. That's

754
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: sort of a I got a mosquito scream? You got

755
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 3: anything to add?

756
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 4: No, I think that's a good little summary about what

757
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 4: to do for mosquitos. I hate mosquito so much, and

758
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 4: I'm one of those people that don't think they should

759
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 4: be around. But since they are, I guess we got

760
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 4: to deal with them. So, Yeah, it's nice to know

761
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 4: that I use like a good thing. Like I think

762
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 4: if I use something that you use, I'm like, wow,

763
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 4: I did.

764
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 3: Something right, so to get way ahead of me on

765
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 3: the on the sun cream.

766
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 4: But no, I think it's a it's helpful to know.

767
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 4: I'm sure many people out there are sensors to mosquito

768
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 4: bites and anything will.

769
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: Help if they I don't know. Yeah, it sucks.

770
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 4: It's getting so hot and they're everywhere. And now what's

771
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 4: really bothering me is that they're getting smaller and harder

772
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 4: to see, but they're just as annoying.

773
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, the bite still even if there's yeah, yeah, you've

774
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 3: got to get a really fine mesh field mosquito nets

775
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: for that. You can't be using other products. Yeah, I

776
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: don't have a mosquito net. I should go one. Yeah,

777
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 3: I get a mosquito net. I love a head mosquito net.

778
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: It's great. It serves you some. It stops the mosquitoes

779
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: biting you, it stops other people talking to you. Wow,

780
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 3: it's a great, great thing to have. Yeah.

781
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 4: I have seen these videos of like someone having a

782
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 4: mosquito on it on them and then like the mosquitoes,

783
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: you see it poking and not being able to reach.

784
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: It's kind of funny, like mosquito ares very funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

785
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 3: yeah cool. Yeah, thanks James. Yeah, that's why it's a

786
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 3: podcast brought to you by me hyper focusing on things,

787
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 3: which is what I do, is the way I deal

788
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 3: with my anxiety about going to places which aren't necessarily

789
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 3: places people go for fun. Word all right bye.

790
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 5: So yeah, welcome to cut Up Here. I'm Andrew Siege

791
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 5: from the Future Channel Andrewism and I'm joined today by James.

792
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 3: It's me Hi, Andrew, So James.

793
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 5: Just before the show we were talking about it a

794
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 5: couple of different places that we've either been to or

795
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 5: would like to visit. Have you ever been to the Andes.

796
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 3: No, anything I have, Actually i'd like to I like mountains.

797
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Andes is one of my bucket list destinations

798
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 5: for sure. They've always enticed me, you know, as a

799
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 5: place of settlement, a center of culture, a place of

800
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 5: political struggle. So you know, I had to do an

801
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 5: episode or the development of anarchistsinicalism in Peru. So they

802
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 5: continuing along with my previous research on anarchism and other

803
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 5: parts of the world, much information I've gathered as thanks

804
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 5: to the work of Stephen J. Hush and they shoudn't

805
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 5: found the world, particularly anarchism and cynicalism in the colonial

806
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 5: and post colonial world eighteen seventeen, nineteen forty. And you know,

807
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 5: people don't usually think of Peru when they think of

808
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 5: anarchistsinicalist struggles, not even in the context of Latin America.

809
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 5: Folks familiar with that history would quicker consider Brazil or

810
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 5: Argentina as sites of anarchistsinicalism. You know, in Brazil, the

811
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 5: roots of anarchism could be traced back to the late

812
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 5: nineteenth century, to the influence of European immigrants, and by

813
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 5: the early twentieth century had anarchist ideas keen interaction across

814
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 5: the working class, with the establishment of various associations and

815
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 5: newspapers like the Brazilian Workers Confederation founded in nineteen oh six.

816
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 5: Anarchists would play, of course, a crucial role in the

817
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 5: General strike of nineteen seventeen, and then, unfortunately, with the

818
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 5: rise of Jitulio Vargas and his Estado Novo regime in

819
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 5: the nineteen thirties, there was a very severe oppression of

820
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 5: anarchist activities in Argentina. He also had anarchism taken route

821
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 5: in the late nineteenth century, again largely due to the

822
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 5: influence of European immigrants, and by the early twentieth century

823
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 5: Buenos Aires had become a hub of anarchist activity, with

824
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 5: numerous anarchist newspapers, clubs and unions. The Argentine Region of

825
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 5: Workers Federation, foundated nineteen oh one, was a leading anachosynicus

826
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 5: organization that advocated for workers' rights and direct action. Sadly,

827
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 5: the movement reached its peak during the first two decades

828
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 5: of twentieth century, and fortunately, similarly to Brazil, due to

829
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 5: the repression they endured, particularly during the infamous Tragic Weak

830
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 5: in nineteen nineteen, where a major workers strike led to

831
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 5: violent clashes and a crackdown on anarchists and labor activists.

832
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 5: The overall movement went into a decline. Peru during this

833
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 5: period was predominantly an agrarian society with a large and

834
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 5: economically marginalized indigenous population. It hardly resembled a nation into

835
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 5: throes of industrialization. So although there was significant capitalist growth

836
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 5: in Peru's export sectors, chiefly mining, sugar, cotton, and wool,

837
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 5: vast areas of the country remained largely unaffected by these

838
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 5: capitalist changers. Aside from Lima and its adjacent port city, Calau,

839
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 5: which served as the nation's administrative, commercial and financial hub,

840
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 5: sizeable Iwan economies were conspicuously absent. This lack of urban

841
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 5: centers typically assumed eight with industrial growth post a unique

842
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 5: challenge for the development of a robust labor movement, but

843
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 5: laborment would still arise. The working class in Lemaclaur would

844
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 5: emerge beginnings in the eighteen nineties and early nineteen hundreds,

845
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 5: spurred by the export boom that invigorated the urban economy.

846
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 5: Profits from the export sectors with reinvestments and new financial institutions,

847
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 5: infrastructure projects, utility companies, and consumer goods industries by native

848
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 5: and foreign capitalists, and this economic growth led to a

849
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 5: dramatic rise in the urban labor force in Lima. The

850
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 5: number of manual workers grew from about nine thousand in

851
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 5: eighteen seventy six tony twenty four thousand and nineteen oh eight,

852
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 5: making up seventeen percent of Lema's estimated one hundred and

853
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 5: forty thousand residents. In Kalau, the workforce grew at a

854
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 5: slower pace, doubling in size Streeen nineteen oh five nineteen

855
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 5: twenty to around eight thousand out of a total population

856
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 5: of fifty two thousand. So this is not a bustling

857
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 5: industrial heartland by any means, and peasant based society is

858
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 5: are not exactly known for their syndicalism, But despite its unlikelihood,

859
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 5: Peru was indeed also a place of anarchist cynicalism, though

860
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 5: most notably within Lima and Callao. The nineteen tens and

861
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 5: twenties were the Heydi of syncalism Peru, as anarchist ideas

862
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 5: and publications were circulated by a small handful of radical

863
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 5: immigrants intellectuals, alongside the labor organized and efforts of craftsmen

864
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 5: and machine tenders who were inspired by Pruron, Bercunan, Kropotkin,

865
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 5: and Manchester. Thanks to their efforts, anarchist cynicalism would come

866
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 5: to dominate the still fledgland labor movement in Peru, spreading

867
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 5: its influence beyond Limacalau to the working classes along Peru's

868
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 5: northern coast and central and southern highlands. Workers in factories, crafts, transportation,

869
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 5: and rural settings all found appeal in the ideals and

870
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 5: practice of the ideology. Of course, at the size of

871
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 5: the movement of the time, the anarchists may have dominated

872
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 5: the movement, but the movement itself and the anarchists with

873
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 5: that had constituted a minority of Peru's urban and rural

874
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 5: working classes. Keeps that in mind as we proceed stea

875
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 5: emerging Peruvian working class was highly diverse. He had workers

876
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 5: of different origins, gender, race, ethnicity, age, skill level, and

877
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 5: despite these differences, they all were dealing with long working

878
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 5: hours after between twelve to sixteen hours a day in

879
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 5: poor conditions for meager wages that barely covered basic living expenses.

880
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 5: Seeking to improve their dire working and living conditions, workers

881
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 5: began to turn to anarchism because the elite dominated political

882
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 5: system in Peru was simply not taking them on. But

883
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 5: there was a handful of sympathetic dissolusion elites like Manuel

884
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 5: Gonzalez Prada, an upper class intellectual who became an anarchist

885
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 5: after interacting with French and Spanish anarchists during a self

886
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 5: imposed European exile between eighteen ninety one and eighteen ninety eight.

887
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 5: Gonzales Prada founded the first anarchist publication, Los Parias in

888
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 5: nineteen oh four, and this was soon followed by other

889
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 5: anarchist newspapers like Lassimier and the Roja, Elambriento, Umanidad and Oprimido.

890
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 5: Anarchist slogans like Kropotkins liberties and not bestowed, They're seized

891
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 5: were prominently featured in these newspapers, and these publications, mainly

892
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 5: produced by radical intellectuals such as Glicerio Tassara and hil

893
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 5: Rihi Cali, Carlos del Barzo and Ino Sincio Dombarozzi, introduced

894
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 5: workers to European anarchist ideas and perspectives on the state,

895
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 5: the Bouchoisi, the church, property and class relations. Anarchist study

896
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 5: circles further promoted these ideas among workers, operated by both

897
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 5: workers and radical intellectuals. Groups like the Center of Socialist

898
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 5: Studies First of May in Lima and Love and Light

899
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 5: in Calao, provided spaces for discussing anarchist principles, and these

900
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 5: study circles, like the anarchist press, emphasized workers, self emancipation

901
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 5: and cultural advancement. And somehow this man manages to come

902
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 5: up in practically every single one of my explorations of

903
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 5: anarchist history, that being the Spanish anarchist Francisco Ferrer. He

904
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 5: was the guy who kick started the modern school movement

905
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 5: in Spain and led to the creation of anarchist schools worldwide,

906
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 5: and he was also unjustly executed by the Spanish state.

907
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Frere is like a guy I like to a lot.

908
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 3: I like to If you're in Barcelona, you can visit him,

909
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: along with Ascastle and de Ruti on much week. They're

910
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: in the cemetery there. They have like a little little

911
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 3: area with the three of them.

912
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 5: I was wondering for a second. He said, oh, you

913
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 5: could visit him. I was like, well, really, yeah, pretty sure.

914
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 3: He's six feet under he's immortal, like they've re reanimated him.

915
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 3: It's like zombie for their Yeah.

916
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 5: I feel like the Simpsons did an episode of that

917
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 5: with Lenin.

918
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 3: Fortunately, I'm trying to think. I'm pretty sure that anarkids

919
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 3: have we have spared the world the embalming of our leaders.

920
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 5: Fortunately, yeah, fortunately, I mean his death. Though despite not

921
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 5: being embalmed, his death still continues to refiberate across these

922
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 5: historical episodes across the world. Upon his death, anarchists went

923
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 5: out in their numbers to protest his execution, and Peru

924
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 5: was no different. On October seventeenth, nineteen oh nine, the

925
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 5: Center of Socialist Studies First of May organized a public

926
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 5: protest in response to the execution of federer A by

927
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 5: the Spanish government, and these sorts of demonstrations were not

928
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 5: new to the workers in Peru at the time. In

929
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 5: the previous year, an anarchist musical group associated with the

930
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,479
Speaker 5: Center held a performance to commemorate the nineteen oh seven

931
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 5: massacre of Chilean mine workers. Furthermore, annual media celebrations in

932
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 5: honor of the Chicago Martyrs were also supported by these

933
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 5: study circles and the anarchist press. The first media celebration

934
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 5: in Lima, organized primarily by the Federation of Baker Workers

935
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 5: Staff Peru, took lace in nineteen oh five, highlight an

936
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 5: international working class solidarity and the struggle for the eight

937
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 5: hour workday, while honoring Peru's first worker martyr, and to

938
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 5: the dedication of anarchist leaders, publications, and study circles, the

939
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 5: early years of Peruvian anarchism and labor organization laid the

940
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 5: groundwork for a movement committed to justice and dignity for

941
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 5: all workers. We can say that by nineteen eleven anarchist

942
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 5: cynicalism had truly firmly taken route. Why because this was

943
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 5: the year of the first general strike in Peru by

944
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 5: the urban working class, spearheaded by anarcho synicalists. In March

945
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 5: nineteen eleven, five hundred workers at the US owned Vitarite

946
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 5: cotton mill initiated a strike demanding higher wages, a reduction

947
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 5: of the work day from thirteen to ten hours, and

948
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 5: the elimination of the night shift. And I found these

949
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 5: demands very interesting because I'm imagining even now people back

950
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 5: then saying, you know, how lazy can you be? You

951
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 5: know you only want to work ten hours? Like, come on,

952
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 5: some of us, some of us are putting in sixteen, seventeen,

953
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 5: eighteen hours, pick up, pick up the slack.

954
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's always like these early anarchist demands, you

955
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 3: just realize the unfathomable misery of being like part of

956
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 3: the industrial working class in the late nineteenth and early

957
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 3: twentieth century.

958
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 5: Yes, like can you can you ease the boot off

959
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 5: my neck for like two seconds a day? You know?

960
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, it's people fighting and dying right to work,

961
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 3: like the amount of hours that most of us are

962
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 3: awake in a day, and they would work that much

963
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 3: without taking care of any of their family or personal

964
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 3: or other.

965
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 5: Needs, like can I please see my family for more

966
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 5: than an already?

967
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 8: Yeah?

968
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely not no uth, And then the Pinkerton's come out

969
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 3: and yes, exactly, like, yeah, people are asking for sixteen

970
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 3: hour day and their response is is to send out

971
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: someone to murder them.

972
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah, but I am impressed by the tenacity,

973
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, absolutely, even with the what I would

974
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 5: consider to be rather self demands, I mean, a ten

975
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 5: hour worth, the higher wages, and the eliminition of the

976
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 5: night shift. I mean those are things that some people

977
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 5: take for granted today, right, Yeah, but that's something they

978
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 5: had to fight for and their strike lasted twenty nine days.

979
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's very impressive. Yeah. This has reminded me

980
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 3: of like I'm working on a book right now and

981
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 3: I've been reading this biography of Duluti for a while

982
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 3: that Able pass wrote and it passes book when de

983
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: Ruti goes into exile for a Way too and turn

984
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 3: travels across South America, and these these anarchist schools are

985
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 3: being set up along the modern system as envisaged by

986
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 3: IF and I just fl air. And they don't have

987
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 3: any funding, right because everyone's so dirt poor that like

988
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 3: that there isn't much surplus to contribute to their children's education.

989
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: And they have once they've taken care of their subsistence needs.

990
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: And there's this line in the book which for whatever reason,

991
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 3: it's just like a line I aspire to write something

992
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: that's beautiful. It's the Ruty was very fond of children,

993
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 3: and so he risked his life robbing banks to fund

994
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 3: their education, which is like, I just love the pivot

995
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 3: from like he liked kids and therefore he conducted arm

996
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 3: bank robbery throughout the world.

997
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, it's like you know, put the money in

998
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 5: the bag and maybe some textbooks while yeah at.

999
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 3: Ith Yeah, and like he at this time, like the

1000
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 3: anarchists were so pure at this time, and like in

1001
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 3: their sort of aspirations and in their actions in many

1002
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 3: ways in other ways, not of course that they could

1003
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 3: not rid themselves to some of their gender assumptions. But

1004
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 3: they would make an accounting of everything they stole, which

1005
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 3: is really not like if if you're involved in crimes

1006
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 3: and you're listening, it's not a good idea yea, yeah.

1007
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 3: But he would do it to to like prove sure

1008
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 3: everyone that he wasn't stealing for his own personal benefit.

1009
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 3: They'd be like, we get this to this school and

1010
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 3: we bought some textbooks and like that. You know, they

1011
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 3: needed school lunches, so we got some sacks of rice

1012
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 3: and bananas, and like, as you can see, the entire

1013
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: money from this bank heightst has been redistributed, and we're

1014
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 3: off to another country to do the same.

1015
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 5: Now I'm just imagined and this guy like, you're keeping

1016
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 5: all these records because the anarchist auditor is going to

1017
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 5: come and you know check all.

1018
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I'm not sure who would like

1019
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 3: doubt the commitment of the man traveling around the world

1020
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 3: robbing the banks. But apparently they felt that like no

1021
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: one should be above approach, which is admirable. Yeah, yeah,

1022
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 3: you know what's not admirable, Andrew ads, Yeah, it's our

1023
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 3: obligation to include products and services in these podcasts, but

1024
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 3: we have to. So here we go. Okay, we're back,

1025
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: and yeah, you're telling me about their their twenty nine

1026
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 3: day general strike or the strike rather than a general strike.

1027
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, strike, but you're close, because the strike started in

1028
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 5: March as a regular strike, it lasted twenty nine days

1029
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 5: and then eventually escalated into a general strike on April tenth,

1030
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 5: bring in Lima's business and transport to a complete halt.

1031
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 5: And so the following day, President Leguya intervened and forced

1032
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 5: the mills management to meet the workers' demands.

1033
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 3: That's a win.

1034
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 5: It is away of a ten hour workday, but a way.

1035
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 3: Nonetheless, Yeah, I guess it's approved that you can force

1036
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 3: them to change and then you can you can continue

1037
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: from there.

1038
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so to save safeguard their heart won victories,

1039
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 5: textile workers in Vitarite established the Textile Workers Unification of

1040
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 5: Ittarity in May nineteen eleven, dedicated to defending the rights

1041
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 5: of all workers. Inspired with Vitarte's example, workers at other

1042
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 5: major mills and Lima began forming their own resistance societies

1043
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 5: dedicated to serving and defending the right of the proletariat

1044
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,240
Speaker 5: In general and the textile workers in particular. The movement

1045
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 5: continued to gain momentum in nineteen twelve nineteen thirteen. In

1046
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 5: October nineteen twelve, the La Protest group succeeded in forming

1047
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,959
Speaker 5: the first Workers Regional Federation of Peru, united various worker

1048
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 5: resistance societies modeled after Argentina's Workers Regional Federation. The FORP,

1049
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 5: as it was also called, advocated for both immediate improvements

1050
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 5: and long term social revolution, even to unite workers across Peru. Unfortunately,

1051
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 5: as is the case with many workers struggles in this time,

1052
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 5: economic instability and state hostelity during World War One led

1053
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 5: to the disillusion of the FRP in nineteen sixteen. Thankfully,

1054
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 5: this setback was temporary. Between nineteen sixteen and nineteen nineteen,

1055
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 5: Anacosynicolus redouble their efforts, focusing on organizing both urban and

1056
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 5: rural workers. Following the death of Manuel Gonzalez Prada nineteen nineteen,

1057
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 5: worker run union presses emerged, spreading anarchosynicalist ideas and replace

1058
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 5: in earlier anarchist publications. This renewed activity strengthened the labor

1059
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 5: move lead entity establishment of new labor federations and the

1060
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 5: revival of the FORP, and with the deteriorating conditions during

1061
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 5: the war years and real wages fallen sharply, they had

1062
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 5: to be a wave of strikes in nineteen eighteen. The

1063
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 5: most significant strike occurred in December nineteen eighteen b nearly

1064
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 5: twenty nine hundred textile workers demanded an eight hour workday,

1065
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 5: finally making some progress.

1066
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we'll get in there.

1067
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 5: What I find so interesting about the demand of an

1068
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 5: eight hour workday is if we look at their first

1069
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 5: demand nineteen eleven, they fought to reduce their workday from

1070
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 5: thirteen hours to ten hours, right, and then a mayor

1071
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 5: seven years later, nineteen eleven to nineteen eighteen, I mean

1072
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 5: seven years.

1073
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: Later, Yeah, they got them down to eight They go from.

1074
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 5: Ten hours to eight hours. And by the way, by

1075
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 5: January nineteen nineteen, they organized a general strike. They moved

1076
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 5: on to a general strike. The led to street clashes

1077
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 5: and business shutdowns, and despite the arrests and the torture

1078
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 5: strike leaders, the strike continued until President part of they

1079
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 5: were conceded to eat hour weekday. So in seven years

1080
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 5: they went from ten hours to eat hours.

1081
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we've.

1082
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 5: All collectively as a global society been stuck on eight

1083
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 5: hours for the past century, over our century at this point,

1084
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 5: I mean it's twenty four this was nineteen nineteen.

1085
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, putting it that way, that is bleak.

1086
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 5: We should we should be down'd on hour this point.

1087
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we give it extrapolate, right, we take two

1088
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 3: points and draw the line. That's what happens when like

1089
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 3: they see the success of the people in the streets, trained,

1090
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: and they know they have of power and they can

1091
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 3: keep going.

1092
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1093
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, because they wouldn't have felt so bull as to

1094
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 5: demand the eight hours if they didn't fight and win

1095
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 5: that ten hours at first, just a couple of years before.

1096
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, it's why we have made a versus International

1097
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 3: Workers Day, right, Like, because like the number of rights

1098
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 3: we enjoy visa v our employers and the state were

1099
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 3: all fought for and one by people who sometimes died

1100
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 3: in the process, and like, yeah, we ought to remember that.

1101
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 3: I think like sometimes now organizing forgets how hard fought

1102
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 3: those were. But also like they won. Yeah, we have

1103
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 3: not had many dubs in the in the intervening period.

1104
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 3: Of course, the state has like the state has grown

1105
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 3: exponentially stronger.

1106
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean the situation has changed. We have

1107
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 5: to acknowledge that. Yeah, but it's just it's it is

1108
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,439
Speaker 5: very fascinating, you know, the way that you know, these

1109
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 5: small winds was able to embolden bigger winds, yeah later

1110
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 5: down the line, and that keeping that momentum really is vital.

1111
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, it still works that way when I, like,

1112
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 3: you know, in the last couple of years, I've been

1113
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 3: to Java and to mian Maar, like, they have done

1114
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,439
Speaker 3: things that would have seemed inconceivable to them ten years

1115
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 3: before they did them. And in both cases it's by

1116
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 3: staying in the streets, right or staying in the jungles

1117
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 3: or the mountains or wherever you're fighting them, and then

1118
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 3: refusing to like accept that the state can tell you

1119
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 3: what to do, even when the state tries to bring

1120
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,399
Speaker 3: its coercive violence against you. And like that's how all

1121
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 3: of these these winds occur. But it doesn't happen without organization,

1122
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 3: without community, without like all the things that they had

1123
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 3: built in Peru, right like before they did their first strike,

1124
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 3: they had to have confidence that their strike woul succeed,

1125
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 3: and presumably a strike fund and a means to collectively

1126
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 3: support the people who weren't getting paid and they have

1127
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 3: to build all that and then like these things can

1128
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 3: kind of cascade once the once the movement has a

1129
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 3: strong base.

1130
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 5: Exactly. There's the reason that I'm going through these histories.

1131
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 5: You know, these are the sort of lessons I want

1132
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 5: people be able to glean.

1133
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. I think it can be frustrating otherwise, like

1134
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 3: it can be frustrating to be people. I'm not saying

1135
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 3: people right now aren't trying, because people do a lot

1136
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,959
Speaker 3: and they're working hard. But it can be frustrating until

1137
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 3: you see that it takes years of building that base,

1138
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 3: and then things can things can seem to come quickly,

1139
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,959
Speaker 3: but it does years of work sort of behind the scene.

1140
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 3: That has happened first.

1141
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 5: Absolutely so. In the months following the general strike, workers

1142
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 5: continue to protest the rising costs of living. Organizers like

1143
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 5: Alberto Funken Nicolas Gutara formed the Committee for the Cheapening

1144
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 5: of Prime Necessities, mobilizing thousand. I think we definitely need

1145
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 5: a Committee for the Cheapening of Prime Necessities today.

1146
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 3: That's an amazing group. Like I was just what a

1147
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 3: great thing.

1148
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, fantastic name. When the demands were ignored, you know,

1149
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 5: here we go again. A general strike was declared in

1150
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 5: May nineteen nineteen, resulted in violent clashes with the state

1151
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 5: and the arrests of Kutara and another figure, Carlos Barber.

1152
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 5: Upon their release, resolve unshaken, Gutara and Barbara defiantly addressed

1153
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 5: President Laguya, stating in part that the populace of today

1154
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 5: was not the team one of yesterday, which had silently

1155
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 5: borne all attorneys. Sounds like a threat.

1156
00:58:58,680 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1157
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 5: Two days later, FORP was reactivated with a mission to

1158
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 5: dismantle capitalism and create a society based on mutual aid

1159
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 5: and equality. The aerocosilicust movement had dissolved any linkering passivity

1160
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 5: among Lemaclau's workers. The passion, hunger, and aggression towards state

1161
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 5: and employer threats had reached a crescendo by this point.

1162
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 5: For example, in September nineteen twenty one, textile workers seized

1163
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 5: el InCor mill in response to management's plans to close

1164
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 5: the factory. Although they were eventually dislodged by troops, their

1165
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 5: active resistance demonstrated their determination and boldness. It isn't that

1166
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 5: fascinating that these workers were willing to seize the mill

1167
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 5: they had worked at because the mansion plan and closing

1168
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 5: it down. They were willing to take control of ath

1169
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 5: place and work at it and you know, couldn't contribute

1170
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 5: to the economy. But the troops were mobilized to ensure

1171
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 5: that they did not exercise autonomy as workers to self

1172
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 5: organize their own labor. It's either under management or out

1173
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 5: of a or there's no working for yourself or working

1174
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 5: as a collective. Also, in nineteen twenty one, the FORP

1175
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 5: was replaced by the Local Workers Federation or FOL, which

1176
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 5: lashed out against the government's legal rules against strikes. So

1177
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 5: in nineteen twenty President Leaguiya put forward a new constitution

1178
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 5: with very strict provisions to regulate this wave of strikes

1179
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 5: and to put the labor conflicts under arbitration by the state.

1180
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 5: And so the Local Workers Federation the FOL, which had

1181
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 5: replaced the FORP in nineteen twenty one, lashed out at

1182
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 5: this government's legal ruse and vowed to completely ignore it.

1183
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 5: At the time, as well, alongside the labor struggles, Anaqua

1184
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 5: Syncalists were struggling to transform culture. Contrary to the idea

1185
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 5: that the f WEL neglected cultural issues, evident shows they

1186
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 5: actively developed as work in class culture. Their strategy was

1187
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 5: a war of position against rule elites, even to create

1188
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 5: a counterculture that challenged the dominant bourgeois values. At the

1189
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 5: nineteen twenty one FOL Congress, workers affirmed the importance of

1190
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 5: both economic improvements and cultural uplift, which led to the

1191
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 5: establishment of initiatives like a worker's daily newspaper, a popular library,

1192
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 5: and various cultural associations. One key example was the central

1193
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 5: musical Obrero de Lima, founded in nineteen twenty two, which

1194
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 5: used music to promote workers' rights and solilarity. Workers also

1195
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 5: participated in social events like the Fiesta de la plant

1196
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 5: a secular festival designed to compete with Christian holidays and

1197
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 5: promote class unity. They also held Madia celebrations and organized

1198
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 5: tributes for foreign comrades. Moreover, the FOL supported the creation

1199
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 5: of popular universities to educate workers and foster cultural and

1200
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 5: political awareness. Meanwhile, also in the late nineteen tens and

1201
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 5: nineteen twenties, the southern highlands of Peru saw the emerging

1202
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 5: of a dynamic network of anarchostynicalist movements. The network thrived

1203
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 5: amid the burgeoning will export economy. The will trade's expansion

1204
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 5: spurred economic links and infrastructural development, which turned Arakeeper into

1205
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 5: a key economic center and the hub of the anarchisyndicalist

1206
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 5: network in the region. Aracosynicalism and Araqkeeper was influenced by

1207
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 5: four major factors. A radical liberal press, the labor movement

1208
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 5: and Lima, immigrant anarchists and cross border connections with Chilean

1209
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 5: anachosynicalists influenced by thinkers like Manuel Gonzales Prado, intellectuals, artisans, critique, Arakeepers,

1210
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 5: conservative society through radical publications such as Lariete and Bandera Roja.

1211
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 5: These radical ideas burned significant actions like Atraqueper's first major

1212
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 5: strikes in nineteen oh two, the inaugural media celebration in

1213
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 5: nineteen oh six, and the establishment of pivotal organizations such

1214
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 5: as the Worker's Social Center of Araqkeeper and the Worker

1215
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 5: Coalition of the Neighborhoods. The labor movement in Lima, along

1216
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 5: with influenzers Argentina and Chile, further inspired Attkeepers workers. By

1217
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 5: December nineteen eighteen, motivated by reports of workers struggles abroad,

1218
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 5: Artisans and Workers and Arakeeper, founder of Society of Workers

1219
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 5: and Mutual Assistants, the SOSM. In July nineteen nineteen, following

1220
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 5: Lema's example, at Keeper's main labor organizations established a committee

1221
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 5: to combat the rising cost of living. When the demands

1222
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 5: were ignored, they too launched a general strike, which lasted

1223
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 5: eight days and received widespread support. While some wage and

1224
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 5: benefit demands were met, many of the committee's requests remained unaddressed.

1225
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 5: So after the general strike, Atkeeper's workers founded the Arakeeper

1226
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 5: Worker Federation to advocate for their rights and demands. Further,

1227
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 5: that federation was one of numerous unions and federations, either

1228
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,439
Speaker 5: being the Local Worker Federation of Arakeeper or Fuller, which

1229
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 5: emerged between nineteen nineteen to nineteen twenty six in response

1230
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 5: to calls from the fr Repeats enhanced the worker's capacity

1231
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 5: for direct action against capitalists and state depression. Like their

1232
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 5: count parts in Lima, at A Keepers, anarchistynicalists employed direct

1233
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 5: action to achieve both immediate and long term goals. The

1234
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 5: protests against a railway tariff hike in nineteen twenty three

1235
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 5: pressure the government enough to suspend the increase, but nineteen

1236
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 5: twenty five was perhaps their most pivotal year because the

1237
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 5: Popular Workers Assembly, which is an ad hoc coalition of

1238
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 5: anarchistnicalist groups to at a Keeper and Lima called for

1239
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 5: a general strike against the Road Conscription Law, which required

1240
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 5: adult males to register and to work on unpaid state

1241
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 5: infrastructure projects for upward of twelve days per year. For

1242
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 5: the Assembly, this was more than just an unfailed law.

1243
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 5: This was a symbol of the state's utter disregard for

1244
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:42,439
Speaker 5: the working class. As a strike unfolded, the authorities sought

1245
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 5: to crush the movement, arrest in labor leaders and attempting

1246
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 5: to dismantle the anarchist organization's influence. But even with only

1247
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 5: a small industrial sector and a relatively small population, at

1248
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 5: a Keeper's labor movement demonstrated a remarkable level of class

1249
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 5: consciousness and solidarity beyond strike to use a variety of

1250
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 5: methods to build solidarity and consciousness among workers, from worker

1251
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 5: libraries to football clubs. One key figure in this movement

1252
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 5: was Ramon Rossignole, a Spanish architect and passionate anarcho syndic list.

1253
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 5: Arriving an araqueper in nineteen nineteen, Russignole turned his office

1254
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 5: into a hub of anarchist thought at activism. His influence

1255
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 5: was profound as he trained future leaders like Jacinto Leendo

1256
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 5: and Francisco Ramos, who would become central figures in the

1257
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:35,959
Speaker 5: labor movement. Roussignol's efforts extended beyond traditional activism. He also

1258
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 5: founded a popular university in the footsteps of Francisco Ferrer,

1259
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 5: and it stuve as a place for workers to receive

1260
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 5: education and become politically conscious. Endo, a key port city

1261
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 5: in Peru, the influence of the International Workers of the

1262
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 5: World was particularly strong. Louis Armando Trivigno, a key Chilean

1263
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 5: IWW leader, published a series of influential articles in a

1264
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 5: newspaper called Labor Testa in nineteen twenty two. He extolled

1265
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 5: the virtues the IWW's methods and called for international solidarity

1266
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 5: among workers. He was best received right in Moyendo, where

1267
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 5: by early nineteen twenty five, maritime workers from Chile had

1268
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 5: established close and secretive tie to the local Peruvian workers.

1269
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 5: Under the cover of darkness, they held clandestine meetings and

1270
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 5: an old house at Ailey Street. These meetings would lead

1271
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 5: to the formation of a local IWW branch right in Moyendo.

1272
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 5: But it wasn't just a meeting of the minds, but

1273
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 5: of the shared struggles and victories of the workers that

1274
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 5: sevented these ties. In February nineteen twenty five, a popular

1275
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 5: general strike in Moyendo saw workers fighting back against unjust

1276
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 5: practices by British owned companies. The strike was a massive success,

1277
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 5: and the solidarity from Chile and IWW members bolstered the

1278
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 5: Approvian workers' resolve. The government's response the anarchist synicalist movement

1279
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 5: was severe there on the spread of what they saw

1280
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 5: as Bolshevik ideas. They cracked down hard on the Moyendo

1281
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 5: labor movement. Security forces were deployed to suppressed protests and

1282
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 5: activists were arrested or reported to Chile. Of course, government

1283
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 5: repression efforts were not fully successful due to resilience of loose,

1284
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 5: flexible and decentralized organizing the seeds of anarchistniclists thought had

1285
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 5: already taken route. Throughout nineteen twenty six and beyond, the

1286
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 5: labor movement and Moyendo continued to be a site of

1287
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 5: struggle and resistance. Workers engage in protests and work stoppages,

1288
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 5: driven a by the ideas of direct action and social

1289
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 5: justice that have been nurtured through the interaction with Chilean Wobblies.

1290
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 3: Do you know what was almost certainly not nurtured through

1291
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 3: interactions with Chilean wobblies Andrew ads Yeah, and we are

1292
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 3: back from the outbreak.

1293
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 5: Beyond the cities. Anarchistinicalism had a profound impact on the

1294
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 5: rural indigenous communities in Cusco and Puno. Internal migration and

1295
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 5: the exchange of ideals led to the rise of a

1296
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 5: new political consciousness among the peasantry. Carlos Condorina, an indigenous

1297
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 5: peasant from Puno, became a key figure in the Tejuante

1298
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 5: Suyo pro Indian Rights Central Committee the sept where he

1299
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 5: championed indigenous labor rights and the struggle for better work

1300
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 5: and conditions. His work, along with that of other provincial

1301
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 5: migrants like Esequiel or Viola, bridged the gap between the

1302
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:35,720
Speaker 5: urban anarchosynicalists and the rural indigenous communities. Reviola was a

1303
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 5: passionate advocate for both indigenous rights and the broader anarchosynicalist course,

1304
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 5: pushing back against the paternalism of the state toward indigenous

1305
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,759
Speaker 5: community and connecting the struggles of workers and peasants alike.

1306
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 5: He spoke out against bourgeois pigs Yankee imperialism, all while

1307
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 5: encouraging pride in one's indigeneity. Alongside Reviola, Salazar and Ayulo

1308
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 5: would also guide the SEPT and the Provian region of

1309
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 5: Indian Workers Federation toward anarchist syndicuist ideology, organization, and tactics.

1310
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 5: Even after his untimely death in nineteen twenty five, with

1311
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:14,639
Speaker 5: Viewler's legacy continued to inspire anarchists and indigenous movements. Indigenous

1312
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 5: leaders and activists have been grown fed up with the

1313
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 5: abuse of practices of local authorities and the gaminalists, the

1314
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 5: rural bosses who exploited the peasants. Pedro Jose Rada Igama,

1315
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 5: the Minister of Government and Police at the time, blamed

1316
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 5: these uprisings on known agitators. He claimed that these agitators

1317
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 5: were convincing the indigenous people that they rode conscription law

1318
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 5: and other municipal laws were designed to oppress them, even

1319
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 5: though the indigenous people could see for themselves the effects

1320
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 5: of the law. Both the anarchists and the indigenous organizers

1321
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 5: had laid the crown work, but it was the people

1322
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 5: themselves who chose not to accept such state impositions. Uprisings

1323
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 5: broke out across Cutsco and Puno District authorities had to

1324
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 5: suspend the conscription several provinces due to the intense resistance.

1325
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 5: The sheer force of the crackdown was so extreme that

1326
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 5: the city mayor and the municipal council had to appeal

1327
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 5: to President Leaguya for the suspension of the law, and

1328
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 5: they succeeded at least temporarily until July nineteen twenty six,

1329
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 5: and as soon as the law was reinstated, the Popular

1330
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 5: Assembly reignited the resistance, leaving went as first issuing direct

1331
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 5: threats to the officials enforcing the law, noting that they

1332
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 5: had the home addresses of the Conscription Council and was

1333
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 5: not responsible for any potential consequences of their actions.

1334
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:39,520
Speaker 3: That's definitely a threat.

1335
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:40,640
Speaker 5: That's definitely out there.

1336
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1337
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 5: They also sent delegates to Lima to organize a nationwide

1338
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 5: campaign against the law, which led to their arrest and

1339
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 5: sparked even more protests in Atkeeper and Lima throughout late

1340
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 5: nineteen twenties. Despite increasing state repression, the anarchists Sanrachist Nicholas

1341
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 5: did not let up for as long as they could,

1342
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 5: so over the first three decades of the nineteen hundreds,

1343
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,520
Speaker 5: anarchist syndicalism in Peru spread thanks to a mix of factors,

1344
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 5: the distribution of radical ideas through publications, the influence of

1345
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 5: activists from other countries, and most importantly, the work of

1346
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 5: local organizers, most prominently in Lima Kalau. Despite facing immense

1347
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 5: challenges and a significant decline by the end of the

1348
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:31,440
Speaker 5: nineteen twenties, the movement laid the groundwork for future labor politics.

1349
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 5: Former Arachas cynicalists joined new political parties and an effort

1350
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 5: to carry forward their ideals, compromising a long way, so

1351
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 5: the influence didn't fully disappear, but it did transform. Still,

1352
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 5: their spirit lived on somewhat in the ongoing fight for

1353
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 5: justice and equality in Peru, one that continues.

1354
01:11:54,840 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 1: To this day.

1355
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 3: Hello podcast fans, Me James and my friend Scherene, and

1356
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 3: also Cherene's cat Bunny.

1357
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, she is here. She is here and ready

1358
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 4: to pod.

1359
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,679
Speaker 3: Yeah. She loves to cast a pod and so do we. Today, Cherene,

1360
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 3: we have the great pleasure of talking about the border again,

1361
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 3: which is something I talk about a lot, something that

1362
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 3: politicians also talk about a lot. Today, what I want

1363
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:36,600
Speaker 3: to talk about is the difference between Kamala Harris and

1364
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 3: Donald Trump when it comes to the border, Because shockingly,

1365
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of crap reporting on her border stance.

1366
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 3: There has been some good reporting, and like, there's always

1367
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 3: going to be right wing disinformation anytime you talk about

1368
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 3: the border. Right, just today, Border Patrol released video of

1369
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 3: a woman falling to her death from the border wall.

1370
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 3: Border Patrol agents stood there for twenty four minutes watching

1371
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 3: her struggle. There was a ladder, and they decided to

1372
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,160
Speaker 3: watch her struggle until she died as she fell, and

1373
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 3: then she died well watching this like objectively tragic thing, right,

1374
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,560
Speaker 3: Like when we think about how we get to fascism,

1375
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,400
Speaker 3: we get to fascism when my taxes pay people to

1376
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 3: stand there and watch a woman die rather than do

1377
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 3: a single thing to help her. And then a bunch

1378
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 3: of fuck wits on the internet immediately start excusing this

1379
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 3: like it's it's so predictable that it was going to happen,

1380
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 3: and I'm just once again disgusted by the whole fucking apparatus.

1381
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 3: It's the border, I guess. So I want to talk

1382
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 3: about the things that have changed, right, and I want

1383
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 3: to talk we'll sort of start Boy outlining who Kamale

1384
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 3: is with respect to the aborder. So everything she took

1385
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 3: over from Biden, Kamala has been sort of offering more

1386
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,639
Speaker 3: platitudes than specifics, right like her campaign is mostly based

1387
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 3: on vibes. Like I went to her campaign website to

1388
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 3: see what her stances were on the border. It is

1389
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:01,160
Speaker 3: not mentioned. I think that's notable. But recently, in some

1390
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 3: speeches she did offer some concrete ideas of what her

1391
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,599
Speaker 3: border policy might look like. So I'm going to start

1392
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 3: with her campaign ad. This ad incidentally opens with what

1393
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure is a drone shot from Campo, California.

1394
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:19,799
Speaker 3: I've taken pictures in reverse of that shot hundreds of times.

1395
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:22,360
Speaker 3: You can find them on my website. Slate bought some

1396
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 3: of them off me. Maybe a month or two ago, No,

1397
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 3: not even like, maybe maybe two or three weeks ago,

1398
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:29,880
Speaker 3: I guess. I watched a mother breastfeed her five month

1399
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 3: old child, maybe a couple of miles from there. It

1400
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 3: was one hundred and five degrees. We were able to

1401
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 3: give them water. I saw someone in severe hypothermia right

1402
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 3: very hot. We were able to call them off. I

1403
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 3: spoke to a Sudanese family who were really struggling with

1404
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 3: making this long walk. They have to make out there.

1405
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 3: None of that shit made it into the Karmela border advert, right,

1406
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 3: of course not. So I'm just going to play this

1407
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:59,679
Speaker 3: advert for you, Shuen on the border. The choice is simple.

1408
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:04,240
Speaker 10: Kamala Harris supports increasing the number of border patrol agents.

1409
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 10: Donald Trump blocked a bill to increase the number of

1410
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 10: border patrol agents. Kamala Harris supports investing in new technology

1411
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 10: to block fentanyl from entering the country. Donald Trump blocked

1412
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 10: funding for technology to block fentanyl from entering the country.

1413
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:23,480
Speaker 10: Kamala Harris supports spending more money to stop human traffickers.

1414
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 10: Donald Trump blocked money to stop human traffickers. Kamala Harris

1415
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:32,160
Speaker 10: prosecuted trans national gang members and got them sentenced to prison.

1416
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 10: Trump is trying to avoid being sentenced to prison. There's

1417
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 10: two choices in this election, the one who will fix

1418
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 10: a broken immigration system and the one who's trying to

1419
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 10: stop her.

1420
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:48,839
Speaker 4: A cop or a clown?

1421
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 3: Who should we vote for president? And that's exactly it, right.

1422
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,680
Speaker 3: She's leaning really heavily on this, like I am a

1423
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 3: cop thing and like we have spent and continue to

1424
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,720
Speaker 3: spend billions of dollars on border cops. That is not

1425
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 3: the fucking solution. It never will be the solution. We

1426
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 3: cannot make this giant border so full of cops that

1427
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 3: it's impossible for people to cross it. People will still

1428
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 3: cross it because cops ain't going to go to the

1429
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 3: middle of the desert, because you know, be inherent in

1430
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 3: being a cop is also being lazy. So I want

1431
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 3: to play some stuff that she said in Atlanta this week.

1432
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 11: So here is my pledge to you. As president. I

1433
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 11: will bring back the border security bill that Donald Trump

1434
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 11: killed and I will sign it into law. And so

1435
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 11: Donald Trump, what real leadership looks like?

1436
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 3: Oh fuck off? Yeah, So I'm going to subject you

1437
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 3: to some Carmela and some Trump today. That's okay, I

1438
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,680
Speaker 3: signed up for this, Okay. So here's another one of her,

1439
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 3: and this I think is really telling right where she

1440
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 3: is bragging about the most conservative Republicans her bill.

1441
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 11: Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been talking a

1442
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 11: big game about securing our border, but he does not

1443
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:16,360
Speaker 11: walk the walk, or as my friend Quavo would say,

1444
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 11: he does not walk it like he talks it.

1445
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 12: Where if.

1446
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 11: So, Look, our administration worked on the most significant border

1447
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:47,560
Speaker 11: security bill in decades. Some of the most conservative Republicans

1448
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 11: in Washington, d C. Supported the bill. Even the Border

1449
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 11: Patrol endorsed it.

1450
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 3: So I'm going to read some transcription that speech as well.

1451
01:17:58,120 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 3: Just this is pretty much the only point of data

1452
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 3: we have on her proposed border policy. So we're going

1453
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 3: heavy on this speech that she gave in Atlanta at

1454
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 3: a rally. Right, I went after transnational gangs, drug cartails,

1455
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:12,280
Speaker 3: and human traffickers that came into our country legally. I

1456
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 3: prosecuted them in case after case, and I won, Harris said.

1457
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, on the other hand, has been talking a

1458
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 3: big game about securing our border, but he does not

1459
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 3: walk the walk. That's what you just heard, right, And

1460
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:26,800
Speaker 3: then she goes on to reference Quavo, which is cool

1461
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,559
Speaker 3: and normal. So let's talk about that leadership, and let's

1462
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 3: talk about the bill she's proposing. Right. This is a

1463
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 3: bipartisan bill that was proposed last year and that didn't succeed. Right,

1464
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 3: it's the one that Democrats are making a big fuss about.

1465
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 3: Republicans getting the border bill. It's one of the only

1466
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 3: good things they've ever done, actually, because it represented a

1467
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 3: massive right wood swing from where Democrats have previously been

1468
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 3: on immigration. In the bill, DHS could close the border

1469
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:56,720
Speaker 3: if border patrol encountered four thousand or more migrants on

1470
01:18:56,760 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 3: average over a seven day period. The border would then

1471
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 3: have to be shut down if encounters reached a seven

1472
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 3: day average of five thousand, or if they exceeded eighty

1473
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 3: five hundred in a single day.

1474
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 4: Does that happen on these numbers like realistic?

1475
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 3: Yes? Well, A really important thing to remember when we

1476
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 3: talk about these numbers is did you notice that it

1477
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:19,599
Speaker 3: was phrases encounters, not people. So this is a thing

1478
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 3: that is apparently impossible if you write for a fucking

1479
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 3: broadsheet corporate legacy newspaper to understand an encounter does not

1480
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 3: represent a unique individual. Border patrol do not give us

1481
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 3: data on unique individuals. They give us data on encounters.

1482
01:19:35,439 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 3: And this is important because under title forty two, which

1483
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 3: I made a series about last year that you can

1484
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 3: listen to, I would like it if you did, people

1485
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 3: can be returned to Mexico. And as you'll see, and

1486
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 3: under this proposal, people can be returned to Mexico and

1487
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:50,000
Speaker 3: then they will try and come back because most of

1488
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 3: the people coming to our border are not from Mexico.

1489
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:55,880
Speaker 3: Nor do they have roots in Mexico, nor can they

1490
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,880
Speaker 3: be safe in Mexico. So they will try and come back,

1491
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 3: and they will try and come back in a different place,

1492
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 3: in a more remote place, and that will result in

1493
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 3: a higher risk to their lives making that journey. Right, So,

1494
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 3: eighty five hundred individuals across the whole border doesn't mean

1495
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 3: it to have them five hundred people. But yes, those

1496
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:15,440
Speaker 3: numbers are reachable.

1497
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:18,679
Speaker 4: That's just so that's so disingenuous to word it that way.

1498
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, Border Patrol just had like I don't know, they

1499
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:24,880
Speaker 3: had so much success with doing this under title forty two,

1500
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,400
Speaker 3: Like we're flooded with migrants and I've spoken to people

1501
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:30,880
Speaker 3: who have tried seven times to cross. You know, it's

1502
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 3: extremely disingenuous, and I think we're going to get onto this.

1503
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 3: But this is a debate about the border happening by

1504
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 3: people who never go to the border and don't understand

1505
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:42,200
Speaker 3: what it's like, both in the media and in politics,

1506
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 3: and I think that that is a problem. So when

1507
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 3: it's closed, quote unquote, now, we can't close the border

1508
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 3: right like a physically we cannot be We're not going

1509
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 3: to close the border and be like Okay, Mexico. No tomatoes, Okay,

1510
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 3: No tourists can come into Orlando now, right that that's

1511
01:20:59,240 --> 01:21:01,880
Speaker 3: not what it's about. Is open to capital and is

1512
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 3: open to wealthy people. All we're doing is closing it

1513
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 3: to the people who most need a help, that being

1514
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 3: people seeking asylum. Right, So when it's quote unquote closed,

1515
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,240
Speaker 3: they would still process fourteen hundred migrants through ports of entry.

1516
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 3: That would presumably be people arriving using CBP one, which

1517
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,799
Speaker 3: is a fatally flawed app which doesn't work for black folks,

1518
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 3: which has been hacked. All the appointments are sold booked

1519
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:29,519
Speaker 3: up month in advance. You can only use it north

1520
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:33,679
Speaker 3: of Mexico City. It's a complete mess. Every single migrant

1521
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:36,920
Speaker 3: I have encountered has tried to use CBP one and

1522
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 3: given up. It's not even available in that many languages, right,

1523
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 3: I think is English, Spanish, and Haitian creole. Right now, Well,

1524
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:46,840
Speaker 3: it's ludicrous to suggest that this is accessible, and it

1525
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:49,200
Speaker 3: doesn't work very well on Samsung phones. I have a

1526
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 3: pra a foil. I guess a foyer out to CBP

1527
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 3: about that. But you know, maybe in six years, after

1528
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:59,599
Speaker 3: like several court cases, I'll get it back. But I

1529
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 3: know that people are buying iPhones migrant advocates both in

1530
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 3: Mexico City and north of there to allow migrants to

1531
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 3: access the app. They're trying to help them overcome these hurdles, right,

1532
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 3: but like, fucking come on, you know, we've got the

1533
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 3: entire US government here and it's my friends trying to

1534
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 3: get five bucks from from you know whoever to buy

1535
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 3: an iPhone so migrants can share it, Like it's obscene.

1536
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:27,160
Speaker 3: Only unaccompanied miners would be processed if they between ports

1537
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 3: of entry, right, So that's people under the age of

1538
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 3: eighteen without their folks, anyone who tried to cross between

1539
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:34,640
Speaker 3: ports of entry. So port of entry is when you

1540
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 3: cross the border with your passport and you go through

1541
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 3: an office at support of entry. Right, So if you

1542
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:40,639
Speaker 3: cross in another fashion over a river, over a wall,

1543
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 3: around a wall, under a wall, through a wall, just

1544
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:46,280
Speaker 3: across the desert where there isn't a wall, that's between

1545
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 3: ports of entries. If anyone tries two or more times,

1546
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,400
Speaker 3: then during a border emergency, they will be barred from

1547
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:53,760
Speaker 3: the United States for a period I think it's a year.

1548
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 3: I should note that this bill didn't pass, but Biden

1549
01:22:57,400 --> 01:23:00,600
Speaker 3: did write an executive order setting an arbitry cap twenty

1550
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 3: five hundred encounters per day, which you will notice is lower.

1551
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,920
Speaker 3: And it removed the requirement that border patrol ask migrants

1552
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 3: if they fear persecution. So this is really important. It's

1553
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,719
Speaker 3: called a shout test. And the difference here is between

1554
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,400
Speaker 3: me saying and ensuring you've just come across the border,

1555
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 3: are you here because you fear persecution? Can you not

1556
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 3: safely go home? And me just saying get in the

1557
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 3: fucking van, and you having to articulate that you fear persecution, right,

1558
01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:26,840
Speaker 3: Which is that requires them to know that they have

1559
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:28,800
Speaker 3: to articulate it. It requires them to be able to

1560
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,599
Speaker 3: articulate it in a language it's intelligible to the officer

1561
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 3: or whoever's interviewing them. Right, it's a much higher barrier.

1562
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 3: And in both cases, right, you could have the same

1563
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,679
Speaker 3: person and they could be rejected because they didn't pass

1564
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 3: this so called shout test. It's ridiculous. It's a really

1565
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 3: bullshit workaround for someone who is clearly eligible for asylum, right. Yeah,

1566
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 3: And like any good faith actor wants to find out

1567
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 3: if that person is going to be persecuted when they

1568
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 3: go home. And so moving to a shout test like

1569
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:00,479
Speaker 3: you are consciously saying some people would and to send

1570
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 3: home they will fucking die, or they will be tortured,

1571
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 3: or they will face persecution of other means, right, because

1572
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 3: they didn't articulate in the right words their fear of persecution.

1573
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:12,799
Speaker 3: And it's just there is not a good faith argument

1574
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 3: for this. It's just get numbers down at the cost

1575
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:19,559
Speaker 3: of human suffering. So in this case, right, I have

1576
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 3: met migrants with pretty rock solid claims. I don't want

1577
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 3: to go into the details of their cases too much.

1578
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 3: I will in the future, but like you know, I'm

1579
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:31,920
Speaker 3: out at the border a lot, and I'm out in

1580
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,640
Speaker 3: the back country there a lot, and I try and

1581
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:36,400
Speaker 3: help people whenever I can. I talk to them about

1582
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 3: their claims. And I'm not going to ask someone to

1583
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:40,840
Speaker 3: justify their trauma to me with seventeen documents, right, But

1584
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:42,599
Speaker 3: some of them have shown me things which I do

1585
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 3: believe would would be a very cast iron assilum claim,

1586
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:48,560
Speaker 3: and they seem to be since Biden's executive order just

1587
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:52,320
Speaker 3: getting booted back across the border, so he kind of

1588
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 3: worked around that part of the bill failing. But let's

1589
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 3: look at what else is in it. So if the

1590
01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:00,559
Speaker 3: bill that Harris is saying she will reintroduce. Of course

1591
01:25:00,680 --> 01:25:03,559
Speaker 3: she herself can't, right, it's a legislative act or senator

1592
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,160
Speaker 3: or how over the House would The bill would limit

1593
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:09,679
Speaker 3: border closures to two hundred and seventy days, two hundred

1594
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:11,240
Speaker 3: and twenty five days, and one hundred and eighty days

1595
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:14,479
Speaker 3: for the first three years, which no, there's no limit

1596
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:16,679
Speaker 3: in the Biden executive order, So I guess that's better.

1597
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 3: I guess I mean fucking two hundred and seventy days

1598
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 3: when you can't claim asylum, that's a lot of days.

1599
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 3: There's also funding a lot of funding for more border

1600
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 3: patrol agents, of course, more asylum officers, as well as

1601
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 3: more than one hundred judges. We do need to move

1602
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:33,000
Speaker 3: people through the immigration system, but a lot more pressingly,

1603
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:35,599
Speaker 3: we need to open legal passways that are not walking

1604
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:38,840
Speaker 3: across the desert and passing a shout test. It would

1605
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:41,639
Speaker 3: mandate detaining migrants so they try to enter the US

1606
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:44,120
Speaker 3: outside of ports of entry, depending their asylum claim. So

1607
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:46,640
Speaker 3: this is really big. Actually, it's going to result in

1608
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:49,360
Speaker 3: a massive increase in the amount of asylum detention beds

1609
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 3: we need. The bill contains funding for another ten thousand

1610
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:55,040
Speaker 3: more beds will probably end up needing more than that.

1611
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 3: But all of these beds are not in state run facilities, right,

1612
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 3: and private facilities. ICE coordinates with it's cour civic. It's

1613
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:07,240
Speaker 3: people who when Biden first came into office, he wrote

1614
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:09,559
Speaker 3: he wrote an executive order about getting rid of private prisons.

1615
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 3: These are the private prisons. This is how we reallocated

1616
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,720
Speaker 3: money to those same people doing this terrible thing, right,

1617
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,280
Speaker 3: which is locking people up for profit. I've heard terrible

1618
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:21,479
Speaker 3: stories about the conditions in some of these detention centers.

1619
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 3: And this is the guy who ran on and bragged

1620
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 3: about closing down private prisons, sending more money to private

1621
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 3: prisons just for migrants dot citizens because apparently their rights

1622
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 3: don't matter as much, their lives don't matter as much.

1623
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 3: Talking of things that don't matter, Sharin, should we take

1624
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:52,240
Speaker 3: an at break? That was beautiful, James, thank you. So

1625
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 3: we're back, and I want to talk about what Harris

1626
01:26:55,520 --> 01:27:00,080
Speaker 3: has done as VP, which is they put her on

1627
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:02,800
Speaker 3: this root causes beat right, what she's supposed to go

1628
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,960
Speaker 3: after the root causes of migration. So I want to

1629
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:08,320
Speaker 3: start with this message that she sent to the people

1630
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:09,559
Speaker 3: of Guatemala.

1631
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 11: I want to be clear to folks in this region

1632
01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:17,680
Speaker 11: who are thinking about making that dangerous track to the

1633
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:24,400
Speaker 11: United States Mexico border, do not come. Do not come.

1634
01:27:25,920 --> 01:27:29,360
Speaker 11: The United States will continue to enforce our laws and

1635
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 11: secure our border. They are legal methods by which migration

1636
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:41,440
Speaker 11: can and should occur. But we, as one of our priorities,

1637
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:48,559
Speaker 11: will discourage illegal migration. And I believe if you come

1638
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 11: to our border, you will be turned back.

1639
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,519
Speaker 3: Do not come. Yeah, I think I've seen that before. Yeah.

1640
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,720
Speaker 3: She took a lot of shit for that one, rightly understandably.

1641
01:27:58,800 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1642
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not the only time to bide. Administration

1643
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 3: said this. By the way, they were tweeting do not

1644
01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:07,120
Speaker 3: comb in Haitian creole in twenty twenty one from the

1645
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 3: Embassy of the United States in eighty. This has been

1646
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:14,320
Speaker 3: their message and continues to be their message.

1647
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:16,679
Speaker 7: Now to the ongoing crisis down to the southern border.

1648
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:20,240
Speaker 14: The focus of Vice President Kamala Harris's first overseas trip

1649
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 14: since taking office.

1650
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 15: She had some Mexico today after spending yesterday in Guatemala,

1651
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 15: where she announced several initiatives and delivered a message to

1652
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,799
Speaker 15: potential migrants there, do not come to the United States.

1653
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,919
Speaker 15: The Vice President also sat down exclusively with the NBC's

1654
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 15: Lester Hoole, who began by asking her about that warning.

1655
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 14: In the news conference here in Guatemala City. You had

1656
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:45,040
Speaker 14: a message for would be migrants, don't come. Why should

1657
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 14: they believe you when they know that people are getting in.

1658
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:50,800
Speaker 11: I've been working on this issue for a very long

1659
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 11: time and the kind of violence and danger that is

1660
01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 11: associated with that track. Actually, when we're talking about from

1661
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 11: Guatemala through Mexico to the United States, it's extremely dangerous.

1662
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:11,759
Speaker 11: We are looking at a situation where people are fleeing

1663
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:15,960
Speaker 11: because of hunger, because of the hurricanes, because of the pandemic.

1664
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,879
Speaker 11: So the reason I am here is to address those issues.

1665
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 11: Knowing that the people who are here for generations, they

1666
01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:24,599
Speaker 11: want to stay, they don't want to leave, but they

1667
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 11: need opportunity, they need assistance, they need support.

1668
01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 14: Americans don't see a lot of them on a daily basis.

1669
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:32,280
Speaker 14: What they do see it at their own border, children

1670
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 14: being lowered over offences, children coming in with phone numbers

1671
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 14: stenciled on their hand. And so the question has come up,

1672
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 14: and you heard it here and you'll hear it again,

1673
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:44,719
Speaker 14: I'm sure it is why not visit the border? Why

1674
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,839
Speaker 14: not see what Americans are seeing in this crisis.

1675
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:50,760
Speaker 11: Well, we are going to the border. We have to

1676
01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:52,679
Speaker 11: deal with what's happening at the border. There's no question

1677
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,840
Speaker 11: about that. That's not a debatable point. But we have

1678
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 11: to understand that there's a reason people are arriving at

1679
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 11: our border and ask what is that reason, and then

1680
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:05,360
Speaker 11: identify the problem so we can fix it.

1681
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 3: Okay. So all of this was while the Biden administration

1682
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:12,040
Speaker 3: continued to defend and force Title forty two. If people

1683
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:14,240
Speaker 3: haven't listened to the series that made about Title forty two,

1684
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 3: and I've said that twice, but that's like two three

1685
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 3: hours of me explaining Title forty two, so that would

1686
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 3: explain it better than a cand in twenty seconds. Here,

1687
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 3: Title forty two is a public health law, and the

1688
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 3: idea of Title forty two is to prevent people with

1689
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 3: tuberculosis coming into the United States. An element of Title

1690
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:32,840
Speaker 3: forty two of the United States Code it contains this.

1691
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 3: The idea was never to use it as a de

1692
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,480
Speaker 3: facto block on asylum, which is what the Trump administration

1693
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 3: did for a year and the Biden administration did for

1694
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,680
Speaker 3: nearly three years. The Bidens Registration did it for much

1695
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:46,599
Speaker 3: much longer. This ended in May of twenty twenty three,

1696
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:51,120
Speaker 3: and it was used. They called it catch and release, right.

1697
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 3: It was used to bounce people straight back. As we

1698
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:54,080
Speaker 3: spoke about before.

1699
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:57,720
Speaker 4: Catch and release. It's like you're literally like an animal practice,

1700
01:30:57,960 --> 01:30:58,320
Speaker 4: you know.

1701
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:03,040
Speaker 3: Like right, yeah, like these people are fucking fish, and

1702
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:05,960
Speaker 3: I don't like doing that to fish. Personally, I shouldn't

1703
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:09,080
Speaker 3: stress out of fish. It's just vibing down there. Don't

1704
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 3: ruin its day. So later in that same interview, she

1705
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 3: was very defensive about her failing to visit the border.

1706
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:20,880
Speaker 3: But I think there are very reasonable questions. Sometimes these

1707
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:23,840
Speaker 3: criticisms are used in bad faith by Republicans, So is

1708
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:27,560
Speaker 3: everything right? It doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about this.

1709
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:32,439
Speaker 3: We should. I didn't see a single elected official from

1710
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:36,040
Speaker 3: the Democrat Party. I guess fucking Jim Desmond turned up,

1711
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:39,200
Speaker 3: but I wish he wouldn't. He turned up, told lies

1712
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:41,800
Speaker 3: about who paid for the aid, and then forced his

1713
01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:43,600
Speaker 3: in turn to apologize for it when a bunch of

1714
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:47,200
Speaker 3: people turned up at his office. Really great integrity. I

1715
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:50,759
Speaker 3: didn't see a single Democrat for the months that border

1716
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,559
Speaker 3: patrol held thousands of people in open air attention without food, water,

1717
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:57,080
Speaker 3: or shelter, and for the months of my friends and

1718
01:31:57,120 --> 01:32:01,040
Speaker 3: I took care of them instead. What was doing was

1719
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 3: trying to connect business leaders with economies in Central America

1720
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:07,680
Speaker 3: to quote create jobs. Right. She has some success with

1721
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 3: a Japanese car factor in Guatemala and a Swiss coffee

1722
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:15,439
Speaker 3: processor buying more beans and committing to more coffee purchases. Right.

1723
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:21,520
Speaker 3: But this shit does not work and it has never worked. Right. Obviously,

1724
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 3: my position on global economics is not the same as hers.

1725
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:28,920
Speaker 3: But we can't trickle down the causes of migration. We

1726
01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 3: can't do this with like a rising tide levels or

1727
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:35,880
Speaker 3: boat GDP stuff. Even if we do buy this kind

1728
01:32:35,920 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 3: of freakonomics tier bullshit, it doesn't matter because the change

1729
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 3: is going to take decades to come.

1730
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:43,559
Speaker 5: Right.

1731
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:47,080
Speaker 3: You can't just just change a national economy. Change deals

1732
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 3: with unemployment, with violence, with state violence, with nonstate violence overnight.

1733
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:54,719
Speaker 3: And it's very likely that the pace of climate change

1734
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 3: alone will outstrip any benefits that these programs provide. Right,

1735
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:02,800
Speaker 3: Because we are seeing increasingly people coming from countries that

1736
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 3: are the most impacted by climate change to countries like

1737
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:08,120
Speaker 3: the United States, one of the countries that has made

1738
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:11,800
Speaker 3: the largest contribution to the climate change. Right, But this

1739
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:16,320
Speaker 3: idea of like trickle down economics to stop migration, it

1740
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:20,120
Speaker 3: doesn't address the issue that most of the migrants are

1741
01:33:20,120 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 3: no longer coming from the places she's going, right, So

1742
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:25,840
Speaker 3: she's worked pretty extensively in the Northern Triangle, Guatemala, Hondoras,

1743
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:29,200
Speaker 3: in El Salvador. These are places which sent a lot

1744
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 3: of migrants. May be in the earlier Barber administration, but

1745
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,800
Speaker 3: that's not the case anymore. Right, those are not typically

1746
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:37,880
Speaker 3: places I see migrants from, right, I see migrants from Venezuela,

1747
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:39,639
Speaker 3: and we're going to get a lot more of those.

1748
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,479
Speaker 3: I see migrants from Turkey, many of them, but not

1749
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:46,839
Speaker 3: all of them, Kurdish. I see migrants from North Africa.

1750
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,320
Speaker 3: I see migrants from the Sahel. I see migrants from India.

1751
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 3: I don't particularly see people from the Northern Triangle. So

1752
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,120
Speaker 3: the idea that like lifting the economy in the Northern

1753
01:33:56,160 --> 01:33:58,120
Speaker 3: Triangle is going to move the needle. It's just not.

1754
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 3: Even if we buy the idea that it's possible, I

1755
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:05,840
Speaker 3: don't think it is. So that's calmer. Let's take a

1756
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 3: look at Donald Trump. I guess I should give people

1757
01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 3: a trigger warning I'm only going to include a little

1758
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:14,240
Speaker 3: bit of Donald Trump audio here, but yeah, you can

1759
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:15,840
Speaker 3: tap the skit button if you don't want to hear

1760
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:22,640
Speaker 3: Donald Trump talking. So, Donald Trump's policies largely are in

1761
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 3: response to things that are not real or proposing things

1762
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:29,240
Speaker 3: that the president or Congress cannot do, or that the

1763
01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:32,800
Speaker 3: president cannot do without the support of Congress. So his

1764
01:34:32,960 --> 01:34:37,040
Speaker 3: first thing is talking about ending birthright citizenship. This is

1765
01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 3: not a thing that he can do by executive order, right.

1766
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,760
Speaker 3: This is an amendment to the Constitution that requires an

1767
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:45,320
Speaker 3: amendment to the Constitution to party back. Now, you can

1768
01:34:45,920 --> 01:34:48,280
Speaker 3: mend the constitution, but I don't think you'd ever get

1769
01:34:48,320 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 3: support for ending birth right citizenship. Right. This has been

1770
01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:53,879
Speaker 3: the case since after the Civil War, and it exists

1771
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:57,799
Speaker 3: to stop people disenfranchising the children of formally enslaved people.

1772
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:02,120
Speaker 9: Under Biden's current policies, even though these millions of illegal

1773
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 9: border crosses have entered the country unlawfully, all of their

1774
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:10,160
Speaker 9: future children will become automatic US citizens. Can you imagine

1775
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:14,920
Speaker 9: They'll be eligible for welfare, taxpayer funded healthcare, the rate

1776
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:19,200
Speaker 9: to vote, chain migration, and countless other government benefits, many

1777
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 9: of which will also profit the illegal alien parents. This

1778
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:26,559
Speaker 9: policy is a reward for breaking the laws of the

1779
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:31,320
Speaker 9: United States and is obviously a magnet helping draw the

1780
01:35:31,360 --> 01:35:34,439
Speaker 9: flood of illegals across our borders. They come by the

1781
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:36,440
Speaker 9: millions and millions and minions.

1782
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 3: So another thing that don Trump wants to do is

1783
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:42,400
Speaker 3: do away with the Diversity Visa program. Are you familiar

1784
01:35:42,439 --> 01:35:44,320
Speaker 3: with the Diversity visa.

1785
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,920
Speaker 4: No, I'm going to say no, I'm familiar with it,

1786
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:51,920
Speaker 4: but I have to like know what it is in detail,

1787
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:53,640
Speaker 4: So please tell me, James.

1788
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:56,760
Speaker 3: Okay, I would love to tell you. Sharing the DV program.

1789
01:35:57,280 --> 01:36:00,799
Speaker 3: I will avoid using the acronymagine because can be unfortunately

1790
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 3: send us down. Yeah, they were just sending cops all

1791
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:08,599
Speaker 3: over the world. Yeah. The Diversity Visa program, better known

1792
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,920
Speaker 3: as the Green Card Lottery, allows about fifty five thousand

1793
01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:14,559
Speaker 3: or exactly fifty five thousand in theory, immigrant visas a

1794
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:17,960
Speaker 3: year for individuals from countries that are underrepresented in the

1795
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 3: US immigration system. I remember that. Well, that sounds familiar. Yes, okay, yeah,

1796
01:36:22,400 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 3: so like you'll meet people almost everywhere I go. I

1797
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:28,160
Speaker 3: tend not to go to countries that are highly represented

1798
01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:31,599
Speaker 3: in the US immigration system, right, those being countries that

1799
01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:33,600
Speaker 3: find it easier for people to get visas like h

1800
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:37,040
Speaker 3: one B's right because they are more economically maybe close

1801
01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:41,040
Speaker 3: to the United States and have educational credentials that translate across.

1802
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 3: So the Trump administration had made the diversity visa program

1803
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:50,799
Speaker 3: it's such a massive cluster fuck that it effectively didn't work.

1804
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:52,960
Speaker 3: And the way that this happened was because you don't

1805
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,559
Speaker 3: just win the green card lottery and they mail a

1806
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:56,759
Speaker 3: green cards to your house, like come on over, Bud,

1807
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:58,639
Speaker 3: you win the lottery, and that gives you the right

1808
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 3: to go to the EMBAS set to do an interview,

1809
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:04,800
Speaker 3: and then you make the application. Right then the check

1810
01:37:04,840 --> 01:37:06,920
Speaker 3: you off on any checklist you might be on, all

1811
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:09,360
Speaker 3: the stuff that would normally apply to a migrant. It's

1812
01:37:09,439 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 3: not like an amnust visa. And what the Trump administration

1813
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:16,240
Speaker 3: did was make it very hard for people to get

1814
01:37:16,240 --> 01:37:19,320
Speaker 3: these appointments, especially during COVID and this has been the

1815
01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:22,519
Speaker 3: case with the Bide administration as well. They get the

1816
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 3: lowest priority now the cambuc and appointment that other people's

1817
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:28,040
Speaker 3: stuff gets to sort of overtake them in the line, right,

1818
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:31,080
Speaker 3: because you only have a year from receiving it to

1819
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:34,439
Speaker 3: claiming it. De facto. This means that people don't get

1820
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:37,679
Speaker 3: it right, So we are not fifty five thousand people

1821
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:41,200
Speaker 3: are not coming because of the diversity visa. Even if

1822
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:44,760
Speaker 3: they were, this is not very many people. And like

1823
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 3: it's just Trump. I don't know, maybe he saw the

1824
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:51,919
Speaker 3: phrase diversity and became triggered. But it's a weird little bugbear,

1825
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 3: which I guess if you can focus on weird little things.

1826
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:57,040
Speaker 3: But still, the diversity visa is great. The people I

1827
01:37:57,080 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 3: know who often most deserve visas people who can't even

1828
01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:02,080
Speaker 3: afford to make the trip right to walk here or

1829
01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:04,880
Speaker 3: you know, if you're not in the continental Americas, it's

1830
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 3: a lot more expensive you have to fly. I guess

1831
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:09,320
Speaker 3: you could take a vote. But some of those people.

1832
01:38:09,439 --> 01:38:12,880
Speaker 3: I thank my friend who driving all around Iraq is

1833
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:15,720
Speaker 3: applying for a diversity visa, and like, I really hope

1834
01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:20,599
Speaker 3: he gets it. Lovely man. Trump also has this buck

1835
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 3: there about DHS paying benefits to quote illegal aliens.

1836
01:38:26,040 --> 01:38:30,400
Speaker 9: Crookie Joe Biden is running a NonStop conveyor belt importing.

1837
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:31,719
Speaker 3: Illegal aliens from all over.

1838
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:35,600
Speaker 9: The world into our country, and the Biden Department of

1839
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:41,040
Speaker 9: Homeland Security is abusing it. So called parole authority to

1840
01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:45,440
Speaker 9: give them more governmental benefits than many law abiding citizens,

1841
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:49,200
Speaker 9: including our vets. Our vets are being taken advantage of,

1842
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:52,639
Speaker 9: Our citizens are being taken advantage of. It's very unfair

1843
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:54,600
Speaker 9: and it's not going to stand.

1844
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,439
Speaker 3: The Department of how my security doesn't pay and benefits

1845
01:38:57,439 --> 01:38:59,439
Speaker 3: to anyone. I guess it pays like border patrol agents

1846
01:38:59,439 --> 01:39:01,360
Speaker 3: and people who work for it, but it's not giving

1847
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 3: anyone public benefits. Right. Undocumented people are normally ineligible for

1848
01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:09,519
Speaker 3: most benefits, even people who do have legal status, and

1849
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 3: he consistently conflates asylum seekers with undocumented people, right, maybe

1850
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:15,639
Speaker 3: because he genuinely doesn't know the difference, and it doesn't

1851
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,920
Speaker 3: care to learn the difference. Even people who have legal

1852
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:22,080
Speaker 3: status face a range of hurdles, like sometimes they have

1853
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 3: a forty quarter work bar for example, right, so that

1854
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 3: it means you have to have been working for forty

1855
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:32,240
Speaker 3: periods of three months consecutively. Again, this is kind of

1856
01:39:32,479 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 3: He might be talking about something called the public charge rule,

1857
01:39:35,640 --> 01:39:41,000
Speaker 3: which can interfere with your citizenship or visa application if

1858
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:43,599
Speaker 3: you've taken certain times of benefits. So maybe he's looking

1859
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:46,839
Speaker 3: to make that a little bit broader. But again it's

1860
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,719
Speaker 3: really unclear, and it's kind of identity politics s grifting.

1861
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:55,559
Speaker 3: The next thing is we're getting towards QAnon territory. Now, great, I.

1862
01:39:55,479 --> 01:39:58,160
Speaker 9: Will use Title forty two to end the child traffic

1863
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:01,840
Speaker 9: in crisis by returning all trafphic children to their families

1864
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:05,720
Speaker 9: in their home countries and without delay. And I will

1865
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:09,200
Speaker 9: urge Congress to ensure that anyone caught traffic in children

1866
01:40:09,200 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 9: of course our border receives the death penalty immediately, and

1867
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:17,000
Speaker 9: that includes also for women, because women, as you know,

1868
01:40:17,360 --> 01:40:21,120
Speaker 9: are number one in trafficking children are actually number two.

1869
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 3: This is some weird shit. First of all, right, but

1870
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:26,840
Speaker 3: he talks about using Title forty two. This is not,

1871
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:29,599
Speaker 3: as I've talked about three times now, what Title forty

1872
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:34,200
Speaker 3: two is for. It's very obvious that he thinks Title

1873
01:40:34,200 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 3: forty two is immigration law, because he very obviously used

1874
01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:39,360
Speaker 3: it as that. Right. He was not using Title forty

1875
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,280
Speaker 3: two to stop people getting COVID because he did square

1876
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,400
Speaker 3: root of fuckles stop people getting COVID, right, and there

1877
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 3: were not exemptions for vaccinated people. It's very obvious that

1878
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:52,559
Speaker 3: they use Title forty two cynically as an immigration law.

1879
01:40:52,640 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 3: That is not what it is. Also deporting someone back

1880
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,000
Speaker 3: to the situation they were trafficked from. Maybe not smart,

1881
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:02,800
Speaker 3: like maybe maybe especially a miner who is trafficked here,

1882
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:04,840
Speaker 3: maybe we could help them, you know, one of the

1883
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 3: richest countries the manager has ever seen. Maybe not just

1884
01:41:07,360 --> 01:41:09,920
Speaker 3: bumping them straight back to that country, maybe showing a

1885
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 3: little bit of compassion. Human trafficking is a problem, but

1886
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:17,320
Speaker 3: this is not the solution. So Harris kind of touts

1887
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:23,120
Speaker 3: her prosecutorial experience when she talks about human trafficking. She's

1888
01:41:23,160 --> 01:41:29,000
Speaker 3: actually been better than some not punishing people who were trafficked, right,

1889
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:31,360
Speaker 3: So I was reading that at one point she asked

1890
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:35,559
Speaker 3: prosecutors not to use the term teenage prostitute because like,

1891
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:38,680
Speaker 3: that's not really a thing. What we're seeing there is

1892
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:40,800
Speaker 3: somebody who is being trafficked, right, or somebody who has

1893
01:41:40,840 --> 01:41:45,120
Speaker 3: been victimized to taken advantage of manipulated, and seeing them

1894
01:41:45,160 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 3: as perpetrators is fundamentally missing the fucking problem. And this

1895
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:51,160
Speaker 3: is what the legal system does far too often, right,

1896
01:41:51,280 --> 01:41:53,960
Speaker 3: is it goes after the people who are the vactims,

1897
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 3: not the criminals. She twice brought criminal charges against backpage

1898
01:41:58,160 --> 01:42:00,000
Speaker 3: dot Com, which is a website. I guess what peop

1899
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:04,000
Speaker 3: book and like find escorts. I'm not familiar with these things,

1900
01:42:04,680 --> 01:42:07,320
Speaker 3: but I know that some sex workers were opposed to

1901
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:09,599
Speaker 3: that because they felt it drove them kind of onto

1902
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 3: more underground platforms, which which were even more risky to them.

1903
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:16,880
Speaker 3: But obviously if people were also being trafficked on this platform,

1904
01:42:17,160 --> 01:42:20,599
Speaker 3: So like her record, I guess it is somewhat mixed.

1905
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:24,120
Speaker 3: You know what else is somewhat mixed? Shereen what James,

1906
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:26,759
Speaker 3: it's the products and services that we get to support

1907
01:42:26,760 --> 01:42:29,519
Speaker 3: this show. You know, sometimes it's the cops. Sometimes it's

1908
01:42:29,600 --> 01:42:32,040
Speaker 3: terrible coffee, sometimes it's gold. You never know what you're

1909
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:44,720
Speaker 3: going to get. Ooh, we are backed, and we are

1910
01:42:44,760 --> 01:42:48,200
Speaker 3: back to one of Donald Trump's oldest chestnutes, and that

1911
01:42:48,240 --> 01:42:51,040
Speaker 3: would be his stupid wall right that he wants to build.

1912
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:55,000
Speaker 9: We created the most secure border in US history, by far,

1913
01:42:55,600 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 9: dealing a major blow to the cartels and traffickers. We

1914
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:03,720
Speaker 9: built hundreds of miles of war, We renovated hundreds of

1915
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:04,719
Speaker 9: miles of war.

1916
01:43:05,200 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 3: We never had anything like it.

1917
01:43:07,160 --> 01:43:09,720
Speaker 9: And then I got Mexico free of charge to give

1918
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:13,200
Speaker 9: us twenty eight thousand soldiers to protect us from people

1919
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 9: coming into our country illegally.

1920
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 3: He talks about building hundreds of miles of wall. He

1921
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 3: sets up a couple of times. Right, we've renovated hundreds

1922
01:43:20,479 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 3: of mile the wall. You know, did they build hundreds that?

1923
01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:27,400
Speaker 3: Maybe just technically that they really fudged the numbers. Yeah,

1924
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,120
Speaker 3: I found a lot of freedom of information requests for that.

1925
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:33,320
Speaker 3: I guess what's more relevant is that Biden also built

1926
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:36,040
Speaker 3: the wall, right, mm hmm, calm, that's not talking about it.

1927
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:39,800
Speaker 3: But as we've documented numerous times, Biden has continued to

1928
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:42,920
Speaker 3: build the wall. He's continued to build the barrier, which

1929
01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:46,200
Speaker 3: is a wall. He has repaired other sections of war,

1930
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:50,920
Speaker 3: he has upgraded sections of fence to wall. They're both

1931
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 3: doing this, right. There's maybe Donald Trump would do more

1932
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:55,960
Speaker 3: of it, but sometimes I feel like his general and

1933
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:59,320
Speaker 3: competence might prevent him from doing any more than Biden's.

1934
01:43:59,400 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 3: Like potent migrant. If they call it deterrents, right, deterrence

1935
01:44:03,439 --> 01:44:06,160
Speaker 3: through death, it is probably a better way of phrasing it.

1936
01:44:06,960 --> 01:44:10,040
Speaker 3: Trump also talks about a total ban on taxpair dollars

1937
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:13,040
Speaker 3: to give legal aid to undocumented people. Again, I'm not

1938
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:14,559
Speaker 3: sure if he knows what he's talking about. I don't

1939
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:16,680
Speaker 3: know what he's talking about. He might be referring to it.

1940
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:19,840
Speaker 3: We have a program in San Diego County where San

1941
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:24,320
Speaker 3: Diego County pays for some people to defend migrants who

1942
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:26,679
Speaker 3: are detained by ICE, right so they can have access

1943
01:44:26,680 --> 01:44:29,120
Speaker 3: to a lawyer. ICE has responded to that by moving

1944
01:44:29,160 --> 01:44:32,280
Speaker 3: those people to Texas. Oh that makes sense, Yeah, yeah,

1945
01:44:32,439 --> 01:44:34,639
Speaker 3: totally normal. Good, I'm glad we voted for the anti

1946
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:38,439
Speaker 3: fascist guy. Everything's going great, exactly. You can listen to

1947
01:44:38,439 --> 01:44:39,760
Speaker 3: my episode about that if you want to know more

1948
01:44:39,800 --> 01:44:42,040
Speaker 3: about that. But I don't know if he means like

1949
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:45,120
Speaker 3: they don't get public defenders if they're accused of a crime. Certainly.

1950
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:47,040
Speaker 4: Isn't it just true that he can also just like

1951
01:44:47,160 --> 01:44:49,240
Speaker 4: use these trigger words to make people mad.

1952
01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:51,880
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that is what he's doing.

1953
01:44:51,960 --> 01:44:54,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's not necessari always has to be base

1954
01:44:54,240 --> 01:44:54,759
Speaker 4: in fact.

1955
01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:57,320
Speaker 3: No, yeah, that's to be found with Donald Trump. This

1956
01:44:57,360 --> 01:45:01,320
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. And then finally, talking of stuff that doesn't

1957
01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:03,960
Speaker 3: have to be real, it's absolutely batshit insane idea of

1958
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:10,760
Speaker 3: fucking invading Mexico to kill members of cartels, which that's unhinged. Yeah,

1959
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:13,840
Speaker 3: that is unhinged. That will resolve in more violence, It

1960
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:16,800
Speaker 3: will result in more instability. It will result in more death.

1961
01:45:17,080 --> 01:45:19,280
Speaker 3: I think Car'm's pretty much unclear when it comes to

1962
01:45:19,280 --> 01:45:22,559
Speaker 3: that one, Like she is not proposing invading Mexico. So

1963
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:26,320
Speaker 3: much of what Donald Trump says is insane and it

1964
01:45:26,320 --> 01:45:29,120
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense. So I wanted to look at some

1965
01:45:29,120 --> 01:45:31,760
Speaker 3: of the people who kind of lean on Trump, some

1966
01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:33,200
Speaker 3: of the people who might be a little bit more

1967
01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:35,840
Speaker 3: coherent right when it comes to crafting that policy. Right?

1968
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:38,840
Speaker 3: Could it get Steven Mirror on the podcast sad? But

1969
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:41,719
Speaker 3: we did get these people from the Texas Public Policy

1970
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:45,759
Speaker 3: Foundation who Robert and Gare spoke to at the Republican

1971
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:49,959
Speaker 3: National Convention. So here's zem talking about visas and immigration.

1972
01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 8: I've tried to hire people from other countries. It takes

1973
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:56,160
Speaker 8: months and months and months to get that done. It

1974
01:45:56,320 --> 01:45:58,320
Speaker 8: usually spend a lot of money doing it as well,

1975
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:02,640
Speaker 8: and the system is disincentivized to do that. So you know,

1976
01:46:02,720 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 8: actually during the last Trump administration, they started looking at like,

1977
01:46:05,320 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 8: let's reduce the number of visas and have broader categories, right,

1978
01:46:09,280 --> 01:46:10,639
Speaker 8: So I think they're trying to get down to about

1979
01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:14,599
Speaker 8: seventeen visas, get to more marit based program to fit

1980
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:17,400
Speaker 8: the needs that we have. Make sure that you can

1981
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:19,920
Speaker 8: you know, it's not about like what is the total number,

1982
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:23,479
Speaker 8: But if we are needing labor, we needing people in

1983
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:26,040
Speaker 8: these areas, you can you can kind of like as

1984
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:27,679
Speaker 8: a dial, you can turn up and down in certain

1985
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:30,720
Speaker 8: areas on certain visas. And so I think if you

1986
01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:32,880
Speaker 8: do have to first like stop the problem, and then

1987
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:36,160
Speaker 8: you also have to make systemic changes that will overhaul

1988
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:37,920
Speaker 8: the system and make a lot easier so that people

1989
01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:39,720
Speaker 8: are incentivised to actually do it the right way.

1990
01:46:40,800 --> 01:46:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. So these people aren't stupid, right, they won't just

1991
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:47,280
Speaker 3: spew hate. Yeah, They're much more competent in the facts.

1992
01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:51,800
Speaker 3: So I think what we're seeing here, right is this

1993
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,640
Speaker 3: undoubtedly is a way to reduce what they see is

1994
01:46:55,720 --> 01:46:59,080
Speaker 3: undesirable migration, which is to say, poor people and brown people.

1995
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:01,160
Speaker 3: You can phrase however you want it, right, But.

1996
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:04,200
Speaker 4: I mean, in the Republican's eyes, and maybe a lot

1997
01:47:04,200 --> 01:47:06,960
Speaker 4: of people eyes, all migration is undesirable migration.

1998
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:09,960
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, well, people will talk to me.

1999
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:13,559
Speaker 3: I'm for those of you who have just listened to me.

2000
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:15,280
Speaker 3: I guess a white person.

2001
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:17,160
Speaker 4: British, You're not white, you're British.

2002
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Love, which is more like a kind of translucent

2003
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:27,960
Speaker 3: really you think about it. Yeah, so yeah, I am

2004
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 3: a British person, which is important, I guess because people

2005
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:31,920
Speaker 3: will talk to me about immigration like I'm one of

2006
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:35,680
Speaker 3: the good migrants and they can go fuck themselves. Yeah

2007
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:39,679
Speaker 3: that position, right, that like it's a like implicit white

2008
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:43,280
Speaker 3: people are okay. Yeah, absolutely, that's all that means.

2009
01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:47,280
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, yeah, you speak English and you're like me, great,

2010
01:47:47,400 --> 01:47:49,719
Speaker 4: come out, come on into my racist country.

2011
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. Yeah, I'm like funny foreign as opposed to

2012
01:47:53,920 --> 01:47:55,439
Speaker 3: like evil foreign. I guess.

2013
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:58,000
Speaker 4: I think it's also just like they don't see you

2014
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:01,080
Speaker 4: and whatever in their mind is a three right like

2015
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:04,480
Speaker 4: to I don't know, it makes no sense logically.

2016
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:07,280
Speaker 3: But yeah it does if you understand it's relents of race.

2017
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:09,880
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but I mean their perspective makes no.

2018
01:48:09,880 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 3: Sense to me. Yeah. Same people who are barking about

2019
01:48:13,040 --> 01:48:15,439
Speaker 3: my fellow British people being a threat because they happened

2020
01:48:15,479 --> 01:48:18,759
Speaker 3: to be Muslim, right or brown or seek in people

2021
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:21,920
Speaker 3: that don't understand it seeks Anonymouslims. So what we actually

2022
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:24,760
Speaker 3: need is more legal pathways. He is correct that the

2023
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:27,040
Speaker 3: visa system needs changing, and we need ways that people

2024
01:48:27,040 --> 01:48:29,280
Speaker 3: can apply and come here safely and not have to

2025
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:32,439
Speaker 3: be trafficked and not have to take massive risks, right.

2026
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:35,439
Speaker 3: I wanted to see what Robert and Geh had asked

2027
01:48:35,439 --> 01:48:37,840
Speaker 3: some about this mass deportation seeing because I've seen some

2028
01:48:37,880 --> 01:48:40,559
Speaker 3: people holding like mass importations now sign at the RNC,

2029
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:44,280
Speaker 3: and that's always a good sign that we're not sort

2030
01:48:44,280 --> 01:48:47,240
Speaker 3: of sidestepping into fascism. So let's hear what you said

2031
01:48:47,240 --> 01:48:47,519
Speaker 3: about that.

2032
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:51,400
Speaker 12: Is that plan kind of the mass detention and expulsion

2033
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,280
Speaker 12: of undocumented migrants in the US something that you think

2034
01:48:54,439 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 12: is a good idea, something you support as the Heritage Foundations.

2035
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:00,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, generally, you know, obviously there you got to look

2036
01:49:00,479 --> 01:49:03,360
Speaker 8: at implementation, right and how you actually go about doing

2037
01:49:03,439 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 8: that in the right way. But yeah, absolutely generally.

2038
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2039
01:49:07,320 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 12: And then what kind of time frame then, because you

2040
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:11,800
Speaker 12: just said this is something you have to like lay

2041
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:13,880
Speaker 12: some groundwork on, and what time frame do you see

2042
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:15,639
Speaker 12: it being feasible to carry out something like that?

2043
01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:17,720
Speaker 8: You know, I actually don't have a good answer for that,

2044
01:49:17,800 --> 01:49:21,080
Speaker 8: because you have to first get your arms around the problem.

2045
01:49:21,120 --> 01:49:23,640
Speaker 8: We don't even know how many people are here, and

2046
01:49:23,880 --> 01:49:26,360
Speaker 8: you don't know where they come from, and so it's

2047
01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:29,439
Speaker 8: not like you're just trying to deport them all just

2048
01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:32,599
Speaker 8: to Mexico or something like that, or the southern border, right, Like,

2049
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:35,360
Speaker 8: you you have to first get your arms around the problem.

2050
01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 8: That's the first step, and then I think from there

2051
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:39,760
Speaker 8: you can actually understand figure out what a reasonable time

2052
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:40,760
Speaker 8: frame to do that is.

2053
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is pretty fucked. Like I should point

2054
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:49,719
Speaker 3: out that the Bilbah Harris is proposing also proposes bumping

2055
01:49:49,760 --> 01:49:52,160
Speaker 3: people back to Mexico without the permission of Mexico.

2056
01:49:52,280 --> 01:49:52,400
Speaker 1: Right.

2057
01:49:52,479 --> 01:49:55,680
Speaker 3: I think so many of these policies just rely on

2058
01:49:55,760 --> 01:49:58,559
Speaker 3: Mexico being kind of a sponge for US policy, like, oh,

2059
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:01,120
Speaker 3: they'll they'll be fine, like God forbid Mexico actors a

2060
01:50:01,120 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 3: sovereign country. But this one seems different. Right. We had

2061
01:50:05,560 --> 01:50:09,800
Speaker 3: I feel like, pretty good liberal support on abolish ice

2062
01:50:10,160 --> 01:50:15,200
Speaker 3: under Trump that has completely evaporated under Biden. But because

2063
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 3: we solved racism and everything. Yeah, yeah, we fixed it.

2064
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:21,519
Speaker 3: I've forgotten about that. Yeah, that was that was the

2065
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:25,719
Speaker 3: big crunch point. So what this means is taking people

2066
01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:29,439
Speaker 3: who have homes, lives, jobs, and families and tearing them

2067
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:31,559
Speaker 3: away from one of those things and tending them back

2068
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:32,920
Speaker 3: to a country that they may not have been to

2069
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 3: in decades, that they may never have been to at all,

2070
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:40,600
Speaker 3: a place where they will undoubtedly face hardship, if not persecution,

2071
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:43,360
Speaker 3: and certainly having lived here having family here will make

2072
01:50:43,400 --> 01:50:47,280
Speaker 3: them more likely to be ransomed or blackmailed or any

2073
01:50:47,320 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 3: of these things that happened to migrants when they're deported. Right,

2074
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:55,040
Speaker 3: this is pretty bleak. Like I guess Harris hasn't advocated

2075
01:50:55,080 --> 01:50:58,400
Speaker 3: for this, which seeing the amount of the amount of

2076
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:00,679
Speaker 3: people who fucking respond to my tweets with your going

2077
01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:02,840
Speaker 3: home to like I A am a US citizen and

2078
01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:08,799
Speaker 3: b fuck you. They yeah all the time, all the time. Yeah,

2079
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:12,160
Speaker 3: it's so funny. Okay, got a life, But yeah, it

2080
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:15,240
Speaker 3: does seem that there is a wing of the Trump

2081
01:51:15,840 --> 01:51:18,040
Speaker 3: And I talked to Trump people. I was in the

2082
01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:21,639
Speaker 3: mountains this weekend, like I was in Wyoming mincing about

2083
01:51:21,680 --> 01:51:23,559
Speaker 3: in the mountains. It's lovely, but in talk to some

2084
01:51:23,600 --> 01:51:26,679
Speaker 3: people and I've never really come across anyone who can

2085
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 3: like in the flesh. Maybe it's just because those people

2086
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 3: are so repulsive. I wouldn't talk to them, and it's

2087
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:34,600
Speaker 3: probably quite likely. But advocated for this right, like this

2088
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:37,880
Speaker 3: idea of mass deportations, Like like I said at the

2089
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 3: start of this show, like how does a country get

2090
01:51:39,920 --> 01:51:43,080
Speaker 3: into full on fascism? It is this. It is my

2091
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:45,160
Speaker 3: taxes and your taxes, and some of the people who

2092
01:51:45,200 --> 01:51:49,639
Speaker 3: are listening taxes paying for people who have done nothing wrong, right,

2093
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:52,120
Speaker 3: who have lived here, who haven't done any crimes, who

2094
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:56,680
Speaker 3: haven't hurt anyone, to be at our expense, expelled from

2095
01:51:56,720 --> 01:52:01,000
Speaker 3: their home, detained in a private prison, who's own a company,

2096
01:52:01,040 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 3: make massive donations to politicians, and then flown across the

2097
01:52:05,040 --> 01:52:07,200
Speaker 3: world at are expense, and then dumped into a country

2098
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 3: where they no longer belong. And that is as close

2099
01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:14,200
Speaker 3: as we get, I think to like someone saying like

2100
01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:17,799
Speaker 3: send them to the camps without saying that, like, yeah, look,

2101
01:52:17,960 --> 01:52:20,680
Speaker 3: what was the Armenian genocide? The Armenian genocide was a

2102
01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:23,519
Speaker 3: mass deportation, right of people forced to walk across the

2103
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:26,599
Speaker 3: desert and die on the way. Like if you don't

2104
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:30,679
Speaker 3: think this Trump ship is fascist, like I really don't

2105
01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:32,280
Speaker 3: know what to do. It doesn't matter if it's fascist

2106
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:35,000
Speaker 3: or not, right, Like this is the kind of rhetoric

2107
01:52:35,000 --> 01:52:37,040
Speaker 3: that's genocidal. Like I don't want to argue about like

2108
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:40,439
Speaker 3: Robert Preston and like different definitions because that doesn't matter.

2109
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:46,479
Speaker 3: Like this shit is it is genocidal, It is dehumanizing migrants,

2110
01:52:46,520 --> 01:52:48,320
Speaker 3: which is been a project of the right wing news

2111
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:52,440
Speaker 3: media and increasingly the liberal news media and also the

2112
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:56,240
Speaker 3: Democrat Party now apparently as well as the Republicans. But

2113
01:52:57,120 --> 01:53:01,080
Speaker 3: this is a market step to the right. Both of

2114
01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:03,800
Speaker 3: these are right. The Overton window has moved so far

2115
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 3: right on migration in the last eight years that it's

2116
01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:10,519
Speaker 3: almost an unrecognizable place. And I guess what I when

2117
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:12,120
Speaker 3: I end up by saying what I always say about

2118
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:15,599
Speaker 3: this is like the solution is not within the argument

2119
01:53:15,600 --> 01:53:19,320
Speaker 3: about who to vote foreh Like these are state policies.

2120
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:22,400
Speaker 3: These are also often set by the legislature, as we

2121
01:53:22,439 --> 01:53:25,280
Speaker 3: saw when Biden's board bill failed, right, and that would

2122
01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:27,280
Speaker 3: require a change in the legislature, Like there isn't a

2123
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:29,960
Speaker 3: third party that can get a majority in the legislature

2124
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:34,320
Speaker 3: right now. So the way we fix this is ourselves,

2125
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:38,320
Speaker 3: right like we are seeing in the UK right now,

2126
01:53:38,479 --> 01:53:42,479
Speaker 3: like violence towards Muslim people and itance towards masques, violence

2127
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 3: towards Islamic cultural centers and people stepping up to defend

2128
01:53:45,400 --> 01:53:48,360
Speaker 3: them like that is the only way we fix this

2129
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,560
Speaker 3: is by stepping up and shouldering our responsibility to our communities,

2130
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:55,519
Speaker 3: and people did that in the Trump administration to a degree,

2131
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:58,120
Speaker 3: Like when I'm twenty eighteen, when I was down in

2132
01:53:58,560 --> 01:54:01,120
Speaker 3: Tijuana looking after folks who were part of the caravan

2133
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,920
Speaker 3: that Trump made a big spectacle in the midterms. People

2134
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:06,800
Speaker 3: showed up, churches, showed up, a soccer mom showed up

2135
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:09,600
Speaker 3: in minivans and helped us, and it was cool. The

2136
01:54:09,600 --> 01:54:12,040
Speaker 3: thing was fucked, but like, I respect that we look

2137
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:15,280
Speaker 3: after those people, and that hasn't happened to as much

2138
01:54:15,320 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 3: of a degree since. And we've had more people than

2139
01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:21,519
Speaker 3: we had in twenty eighteen in the open air detention sites.

2140
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:24,280
Speaker 3: And so I guess where I want to end is

2141
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:29,200
Speaker 3: whoever wins, it's still our responsibility to take care of migrants,

2142
01:54:29,200 --> 01:54:32,440
Speaker 3: because neither of them is going to And we are

2143
01:54:32,480 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 3: continuing with policies that will accelerate climate change, We are

2144
01:54:36,880 --> 01:54:40,320
Speaker 3: continuing with policies that will impoverish people all over the

2145
01:54:40,360 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 3: world and enriching people who are already super wealthy, and

2146
01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:48,560
Speaker 3: those things will continue to drive migration. We can't change

2147
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 3: those things in an actionable amount of time, but what

2148
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:54,080
Speaker 3: we can do is try our best to meet people

2149
01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:57,280
Speaker 3: who come here with Kindness and so yeah, I would

2150
01:54:57,600 --> 01:54:59,760
Speaker 3: urge you to do that. I guess if you want

2151
01:54:59,800 --> 01:55:04,360
Speaker 3: to volunteer, you can email Altro Lado It's ala Trelado

2152
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:09,000
Speaker 3: dot org. Border Kindness always need your money, borderlind Relief Collective,

2153
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:12,360
Speaker 3: always need your money. And those are always things that

2154
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:14,320
Speaker 3: you can volunteer with or places you can say your

2155
01:55:14,360 --> 01:55:16,760
Speaker 3: money if you don't have your time. But you can

2156
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:19,040
Speaker 3: also organize in your own neighborhood. I'm speaking to some

2157
01:55:19,080 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 3: people today who are organizing in Maryland to take care

2158
01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:25,800
Speaker 3: of some Kurdish refugees who I know, like they weren't

2159
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 3: doing anything a year ago, right, they saw a need

2160
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:30,560
Speaker 3: and they saw it being a met and they realized

2161
01:55:30,600 --> 01:55:33,040
Speaker 3: that they could meet it, and they've made a huge

2162
01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:36,200
Speaker 3: difference to people's lives. So like, wherever you are, there

2163
01:55:36,240 --> 01:55:38,680
Speaker 3: are migas in your community and you can do that too.

2164
01:55:52,760 --> 01:55:54,280
Speaker 3: Welcome to it could happen here.

2165
01:55:54,360 --> 01:55:58,120
Speaker 6: I'm Garrison Davis and today I'm joined with the authors

2166
01:55:58,160 --> 01:56:01,160
Speaker 6: Shane Burley and Ben Laubert who have a new book

2167
01:56:01,160 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 6: out called A Safety through Solidarity, A Radical Guide to

2168
01:56:04,480 --> 01:56:07,960
Speaker 6: Fighting Anti Semitism, and Jane reached out to me to

2169
01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:12,560
Speaker 6: talk about both the book and a variety of issues

2170
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:15,960
Speaker 6: revolving around this topic. Thank you for coming on, both

2171
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:16,160
Speaker 6: of you.

2172
01:56:16,320 --> 01:56:17,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks for having us on.

2173
01:56:17,600 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 16: Yeah yeah, thanks for having us so.

2174
01:56:19,640 --> 01:56:21,960
Speaker 6: A few months ago I put out an episode looking

2175
01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:24,520
Speaker 6: at a genuine uptick in anti Semitic incidents that have

2176
01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:28,080
Speaker 6: happened in the United States and Europe, and sometimes it

2177
01:56:28,120 --> 01:56:30,240
Speaker 6: feels kind of like a tricky thing to talk about.

2178
01:56:30,280 --> 01:56:32,720
Speaker 6: In some ways, it's like you're threading a very difficult needle.

2179
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:34,960
Speaker 6: It's like you're caught between a rock and a hard

2180
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:38,000
Speaker 6: place when discussing this topic, because if you point to

2181
01:56:38,040 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 6: an actual trend that you're seeing showing a genuine spike

2182
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:43,600
Speaker 6: in anti Semitic incidents, there's like a subset of people

2183
01:56:43,640 --> 01:56:46,120
Speaker 6: who are very focused on the genocide in Gaza, very

2184
01:56:46,200 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 6: rightly so, but they might push back since claims of

2185
01:56:49,400 --> 01:56:52,400
Speaker 6: anti Semitism have been so conflated with any display of

2186
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:55,440
Speaker 6: anti Zionist politics, or even worse, they might even question,

2187
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:57,640
Speaker 6: why are you talking about this when there's this other

2188
01:56:57,840 --> 01:57:01,520
Speaker 6: horrible thing going on right the actual genocide in Gaza. Now,

2189
01:57:01,560 --> 01:57:04,600
Speaker 6: I think, meanwhile, if you avoid this as a lesser

2190
01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:06,720
Speaker 6: or a non issue, if if you don't talk about

2191
01:57:06,760 --> 01:57:09,720
Speaker 6: these things. I would argue that actually strengthens the Zionist

2192
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:13,160
Speaker 6: political project of tying Jewish safety solely to the state

2193
01:57:13,240 --> 01:57:16,120
Speaker 6: of Israel. And in some ways, I think ignoring this

2194
01:57:16,320 --> 01:57:19,920
Speaker 6: entire issue legitimizes a degree of criticisms that are being

2195
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:22,880
Speaker 6: leveled against these massive protests and calls for a ceasefire

2196
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:26,120
Speaker 6: and justice in Palestine. So, I guess how long have

2197
01:57:26,200 --> 01:57:28,480
Speaker 6: you been putting together this book and how much did

2198
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:31,080
Speaker 6: the war in Gaza this past year kind of change

2199
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:32,760
Speaker 6: the scope of it as you were writing this?

2200
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:36,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean we started I think Ben and I

2201
01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 7: started talking about this and in the twenty nineteen beginning

2202
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:40,920
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty, so it's a totally It was a

2203
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:43,760
Speaker 7: totally different context when we started working on the book,

2204
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:46,840
Speaker 7: and what we had been wanting was actually to sort

2205
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:49,760
Speaker 7: of like drive a wedge into what you're talking about here,

2206
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:52,760
Speaker 7: which is like that there isn't really good discourse on

2207
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:55,440
Speaker 7: what anti Semitism actually is that takes it seriously, that

2208
01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:59,360
Speaker 7: doesn't just kind of deflect and project onto anti Zionism.

2209
01:57:59,520 --> 01:58:02,240
Speaker 7: Since Ben and then I both come from like a

2210
01:58:02,360 --> 01:58:05,600
Speaker 7: history of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement and me with

2211
01:58:05,960 --> 01:58:08,280
Speaker 7: Students for Justice Palestine on campus, then with the Jewish

2212
01:58:08,320 --> 01:58:12,320
Speaker 7: Voice for Peace. So we had seemed to basically firsthand

2213
01:58:12,400 --> 01:58:16,400
Speaker 7: how accusations of anti semitism basically leveled just constantly at

2214
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:20,360
Speaker 7: Palastine solidarity protesters, and then also in research and covering

2215
01:58:20,440 --> 01:58:23,480
Speaker 7: the far right, seeing obviously the growth of anti Semitism

2216
01:58:23,800 --> 01:58:27,480
Speaker 7: in white nationalism, both in the US and internationally, and

2217
01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:29,920
Speaker 7: that only increased increased over time. So we wanted to

2218
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:33,520
Speaker 7: work on something that took that seriously and also sort

2219
01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:36,160
Speaker 7: of revive different traditions from the left that talk about

2220
01:58:36,160 --> 01:58:38,920
Speaker 7: anti semitism, whether it's anti fascism or different kind of

2221
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:41,520
Speaker 7: Marxist trends or the Jewish left kind of bring it

2222
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:43,360
Speaker 7: to one place, talk to other folks who are also

2223
01:58:43,400 --> 01:58:46,520
Speaker 7: taking it seriously, and weave that together. All of that

2224
01:58:46,920 --> 01:58:49,920
Speaker 7: is different. And before October seventh, because we were turning

2225
01:58:49,960 --> 01:58:52,320
Speaker 7: in the draft of a book like a matter of

2226
01:58:52,440 --> 01:58:55,640
Speaker 7: days after October seventh happened, Oh wow. We went and

2227
01:58:55,640 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 7: talked to the publisher and we're like, well, the whole

2228
01:58:57,280 --> 01:58:59,120
Speaker 7: world just changed. I mean, we have to we have

2229
01:58:59,160 --> 01:59:01,440
Speaker 7: to make changes the beat it. And so we've made

2230
01:59:01,440 --> 01:59:03,680
Speaker 7: some and basically like address some questions there and I

2231
01:59:03,720 --> 01:59:07,320
Speaker 7: think you can kind of see the in the conclusion

2232
01:59:07,320 --> 01:59:08,960
Speaker 7: of like the very end of the book kind of

2233
01:59:08,960 --> 01:59:12,920
Speaker 7: where we cut it off in November December area and

2234
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:15,280
Speaker 7: sort of have acknowledge that things are different here. But

2235
01:59:15,360 --> 01:59:17,680
Speaker 7: I think that there's also bigger questions that we're talking

2236
01:59:17,680 --> 01:59:20,440
Speaker 7: about now that like we're doing interviews and writing articles

2237
01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 7: and stuff afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot

2238
01:59:22,840 --> 01:59:25,680
Speaker 7: of this really I think one thing that's important is

2239
01:59:25,720 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 7: that because we make very clear, like very incredibly clear,

2240
01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:32,400
Speaker 7: the anti Zionism not the same as anti semitism, in

2241
01:59:32,400 --> 01:59:34,840
Speaker 7: a way, that conversation is the same as before, because

2242
01:59:34,840 --> 01:59:37,320
Speaker 7: we're actually talking about where real anti Semitism lives. And

2243
01:59:37,360 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 7: if you look at the way that this course is now,

2244
01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:42,960
Speaker 7: particularly from groups like the Defamation League, is it's basically

2245
01:59:42,960 --> 01:59:47,200
Speaker 7: built entirely around, you know, attacking college protests, right, attacking

2246
01:59:47,240 --> 01:59:51,000
Speaker 7: these mass anti genocide demonstrations, right. And since that's so

2247
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:54,160
Speaker 7: foundationally different than how we understand anti semitism, there's a

2248
01:59:54,160 --> 01:59:56,960
Speaker 7: way in which, like the conversation that has the book

2249
01:59:57,000 --> 01:59:58,520
Speaker 7: is sort of the same. And what do you think

2250
01:59:58,520 --> 01:59:59,240
Speaker 7: about this, Ben.

2251
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:01,360
Speaker 13: Yeah, I know, I mean I agree that it really

2252
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:04,240
Speaker 13: hasn't changed that much. Even though it's just a lot

2253
02:00:04,960 --> 02:00:07,760
Speaker 13: bigger and more prominent, and the forces that are trying

2254
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:11,680
Speaker 13: to attack the Movement for Justice and past that are stronger.

2255
02:00:11,840 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 13: They're trying to pass legislation taking away our free speech rights.

2256
02:00:15,400 --> 02:00:18,560
Speaker 13: They're trying to restrict academic freedom, They're trying to go

2257
02:00:18,640 --> 02:00:21,200
Speaker 13: after the irs status.

2258
02:00:20,160 --> 02:00:24,240
Speaker 16: Of justice organizations. So the stakes are really high.

2259
02:00:24,280 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 13: But I think the intervention that we've always been wanting

2260
02:00:27,760 --> 02:00:31,480
Speaker 13: to make is to really put the conversation backward along

2261
02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:35,160
Speaker 13: on the rise of the far right, on the rise

2262
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:38,400
Speaker 13: of white Christian nationalism. Right anti Semitism is part of

2263
02:00:39,080 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 13: the right wing worldview. It's just like the other systems

2264
02:00:43,240 --> 02:00:48,720
Speaker 13: of oppression, like anti blackness, anti LGBTQ, bigotry, Islamophobia, anti

2265
02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:53,720
Speaker 13: immigrant xenophobia, Anti Semitism is deeply connected. Right, these George

2266
02:00:53,720 --> 02:00:58,760
Speaker 13: Soros conspiracies are being used by authoritarian leaders like Donald

2267
02:00:58,760 --> 02:01:01,960
Speaker 13: Trump and JB. Evans and the rest of them to

2268
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 13: build up the MAGA base and to attack the foundations

2269
02:01:06,040 --> 02:01:09,040
Speaker 13: of our multi racial democracy. And we've seen it have

2270
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:11,960
Speaker 13: deadly results for Jews and for other groups. You know,

2271
02:01:12,800 --> 02:01:15,960
Speaker 13: white nationalists, you know mass shooters who are motivated by

2272
02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 13: anti semic conspiracy theories have attacked synagogues, have attacked Latin

2273
02:01:20,200 --> 02:01:24,400
Speaker 13: X communities like black communities, and so yeah, anti Semitism

2274
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:27,120
Speaker 13: is part of that machinery of oppression. And so our

2275
02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 13: book tries to reframe the conversation and give Justice Organizer

2276
02:01:30,680 --> 02:01:33,560
Speaker 13: a way to take back the conversation away from the right.

2277
02:01:34,120 --> 02:01:35,680
Speaker 6: Would what have you be willing to give, like a

2278
02:01:35,680 --> 02:01:38,120
Speaker 6: workable definition of anti Semitism, because this is a word

2279
02:01:38,160 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 6: that's certainly been used a lot, but I think it's

2280
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:43,960
Speaker 6: a word that signifies possibly a lot of different things.

2281
02:01:44,400 --> 02:01:46,480
Speaker 6: And I guess what is the definition of anti Semitism

2282
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:48,240
Speaker 6: that you are using in your book.

2283
02:01:49,000 --> 02:01:53,080
Speaker 13: Yes, so Att, we really see anti Semitism as a

2284
02:01:53,120 --> 02:01:59,320
Speaker 13: form of conspiracy theory thinking that developed out of Christianity

2285
02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:03,240
Speaker 13: in Christian Europe, and that essentially sees Jews as the

2286
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:06,760
Speaker 13: root cause of evil or the root cause of the

2287
02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:11,360
Speaker 13: world's problems, kind of behind the scenes. It trades in

2288
02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 13: images of a cabal lurking behind either government or the

2289
02:02:15,880 --> 02:02:17,720
Speaker 13: media or the economy.

2290
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:20,120
Speaker 16: And these conspiracy theories are.

2291
02:02:20,080 --> 02:02:26,240
Speaker 13: Core to an authoritarian and nationalists worldview that mobilize, you know,

2292
02:02:26,320 --> 02:02:31,880
Speaker 13: millions really away from examining and confronting the root causes

2293
02:02:31,880 --> 02:02:35,560
Speaker 13: of oppression and convinces them to chase you kind of

2294
02:02:35,560 --> 02:02:37,320
Speaker 13: illusory shadows instead.

2295
02:02:37,760 --> 02:02:39,480
Speaker 6: Why do we have like a harder time kind of

2296
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:42,600
Speaker 6: pinning down this term? You know, I think people have

2297
02:02:42,640 --> 02:02:45,640
Speaker 6: a general idea and a pretty easy way to like see, like,

2298
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 6: you know, what's like is homophobic?

2299
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:47,800
Speaker 5: Right?

2300
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:48,680
Speaker 3: What's racist?

2301
02:02:49,080 --> 02:02:51,600
Speaker 6: There's a few points in your book that you talk about,

2302
02:02:51,640 --> 02:02:55,440
Speaker 6: you know, instances of people maybe unintentionally spreading anti Semitism

2303
02:02:55,720 --> 02:02:58,760
Speaker 6: that if they were instead talking about like Muslims, or

2304
02:02:58,840 --> 02:03:01,120
Speaker 6: like trans people, or or like black people, they would

2305
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:04,320
Speaker 6: easily identify as like, oh, this is very clearly a

2306
02:03:04,320 --> 02:03:06,880
Speaker 6: form of like xenophobia, and this is very clearly like

2307
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:09,960
Speaker 6: based on some kind of like conspiratorial discrimination.

2308
02:03:10,400 --> 02:03:10,560
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2309
02:03:10,640 --> 02:03:12,280
Speaker 7: I mean I think there's a few reasons for this,

2310
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:13,680
Speaker 7: and we talk about this in the book. I mean

2311
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:17,240
Speaker 7: one of them is that the way the anti Semitism

2312
02:03:17,280 --> 02:03:20,879
Speaker 7: has operated is generally a narrative about punching up against

2313
02:03:20,960 --> 02:03:23,920
Speaker 7: power versus a lot of narratives of oppression, which are

2314
02:03:23,920 --> 02:03:27,920
Speaker 7: basically about how various groups are subhuman or lesser than

2315
02:03:28,080 --> 02:03:31,480
Speaker 7: dominant population. That's slightly different with Jews, though that has

2316
02:03:31,520 --> 02:03:34,560
Speaker 7: been a component of some pieces of it historically is

2317
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 7: basically a narrative that people who feel disempowered then use

2318
02:03:37,640 --> 02:03:39,680
Speaker 7: to sort of like reclaim a sort of kind of

2319
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:41,880
Speaker 7: populous energy. And a lot of ways it ends up

2320
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:45,000
Speaker 7: being a place where folks are directed by people in

2321
02:03:45,120 --> 02:03:48,240
Speaker 7: power to put their class anger away from the actual

2322
02:03:48,320 --> 02:03:50,560
Speaker 7: rule in class. So I think in a way, when

2323
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:54,879
Speaker 7: people see anti semitism, they also recognize that there's legitimate

2324
02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:58,120
Speaker 7: class anger or legitimate like disenfranchisement, and I think that's

2325
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:01,280
Speaker 7: actually troubling to sort of want to undermine that feeling

2326
02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:04,600
Speaker 7: always necessarily. I think there's also just the complexity of

2327
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:08,520
Speaker 7: Jewish identity that's shifted over time, different populations, different communities,

2328
02:04:08,760 --> 02:04:12,919
Speaker 7: different politics, sometimes religious, sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic.

2329
02:04:13,200 --> 02:04:15,280
Speaker 7: That can make it confusing. So it's hard to use

2330
02:04:15,360 --> 02:04:18,560
Speaker 7: one model for understanding impression than projected onto this And

2331
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:20,160
Speaker 7: so in a lot of ways, you kind of have

2332
02:04:20,240 --> 02:04:24,160
Speaker 7: to come at this question distinctly from kind of other

2333
02:04:24,200 --> 02:04:26,760
Speaker 7: forms of oppression. That's actually true of most forms of oppression.

2334
02:04:26,800 --> 02:04:29,160
Speaker 7: They have a lot of distinctiveness. But I think like

2335
02:04:29,200 --> 02:04:32,240
Speaker 7: you have to kind of learn about those contours. And again,

2336
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:34,240
Speaker 7: I think part of it is also that this hasn't

2337
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:37,040
Speaker 7: been a big part of the left conversation in the

2338
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:39,360
Speaker 7: last twenty or thirty years. It is to be more

2339
02:04:39,400 --> 02:04:41,879
Speaker 7: frequent that this would be like you know, maybe trainings

2340
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:44,000
Speaker 7: and left spaces where people would talk about that. It

2341
02:04:44,120 --> 02:04:46,520
Speaker 7: just simply hasn't been the case that much recently, and

2342
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:50,320
Speaker 7: so I think there's actually a big lack of just

2343
02:04:50,400 --> 02:04:52,520
Speaker 7: understanding of how to notice those things and to talk

2344
02:04:52,560 --> 02:04:55,520
Speaker 7: about them. And then I think weaponization has become such

2345
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:58,360
Speaker 7: it's not just such an overwhelming part of it. It's

2346
02:04:58,360 --> 02:05:02,080
Speaker 7: actually the dominating converse station on antisemitism, particularly in the US.

2347
02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:05,040
Speaker 7: So when you hear about anti semitism, it's overwhelmingly going

2348
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:06,800
Speaker 7: to be directed by the center or the right, or

2349
02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:11,240
Speaker 7: for institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. And again, people

2350
02:05:11,240 --> 02:05:13,200
Speaker 7: get heartened skin to that because they don't want to

2351
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:14,960
Speaker 7: like give an inch on those sorts of things, and

2352
02:05:14,960 --> 02:05:17,400
Speaker 7: I totally understand why, and so I think that also

2353
02:05:17,440 --> 02:05:21,320
Speaker 7: has created that boundary of where examination would normally take place.

2354
02:05:21,600 --> 02:05:24,560
Speaker 6: It is interesting looking at like how much the right

2355
02:05:24,600 --> 02:05:27,840
Speaker 6: wing has been able to weaponize claims of anti semitism

2356
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:30,240
Speaker 6: against the left. I think the term that you use

2357
02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:33,840
Speaker 6: in the book is selective outrage on anti semitism, because

2358
02:05:33,920 --> 02:05:36,520
Speaker 6: I mean, I was just at the RNC and you're

2359
02:05:36,520 --> 02:05:40,440
Speaker 6: hearing Marjorie Taylor Green talk about how there's like antisemitic

2360
02:05:40,480 --> 02:05:43,360
Speaker 6: protests happening around the country, and you're like, wait a minute,

2361
02:05:43,600 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 6: you're the Jewish space laser person, what are you talking about?

2362
02:05:47,640 --> 02:05:50,960
Speaker 6: And I think it was DeSantis who just called all

2363
02:05:51,080 --> 02:05:54,640
Speaker 6: university protesters hamas, right, not saying that they're like Amas,

2364
02:05:54,680 --> 02:05:57,600
Speaker 6: but just literally saying that these people are like are Hamas,

2365
02:05:57,600 --> 02:06:02,200
Speaker 6: Like Hamas took over university tests. And meanwhile, you would

2366
02:06:02,200 --> 02:06:05,840
Speaker 6: be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about,

2367
02:06:05,880 --> 02:06:10,280
Speaker 6: you know, this strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong

2368
02:06:10,320 --> 02:06:13,640
Speaker 6: degree of anti Semitic people either involved in their own

2369
02:06:13,680 --> 02:06:16,680
Speaker 6: campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a

2370
02:06:16,760 --> 02:06:21,440
Speaker 6: year ago where DeSantis's campaign staff released a video of

2371
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:24,040
Speaker 6: him with the sonnet rat It's like com on, buddy.

2372
02:06:24,440 --> 02:06:26,720
Speaker 6: So it is interesting how how they've been able to

2373
02:06:26,760 --> 02:06:30,520
Speaker 6: try to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring like the

2374
02:06:30,800 --> 02:06:34,400
Speaker 6: structural anti semitism like baked into this new wave of

2375
02:06:34,480 --> 02:06:36,720
Speaker 6: nationalist politics that we're seeing in the United States.

2376
02:06:37,080 --> 02:06:39,840
Speaker 13: Yeah, no, it's totally the example of marginit Tayla Green

2377
02:06:39,920 --> 02:06:42,200
Speaker 13: is so striking. I mean, she, I believe, in the

2378
02:06:42,280 --> 02:06:47,040
Speaker 13: same day once she called the protesters on college campuses

2379
02:06:47,080 --> 02:06:49,320
Speaker 13: of anti Semitic and then she said that they were

2380
02:06:49,320 --> 02:06:51,720
Speaker 13: funded by George Soros, right, so yeah, yeah, yeah, And

2381
02:06:51,720 --> 02:06:54,240
Speaker 13: she's using them both for the same purpose. And it's

2382
02:06:54,280 --> 02:06:56,680
Speaker 13: not only DeSantis, and they're right, I mean in Jonathan

2383
02:06:56,720 --> 02:06:59,440
Speaker 13: Green Black ahead of thedl I remember, like a few

2384
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:03,840
Speaker 13: months ago, said that students of college campuses were Iranian proxies.

2385
02:07:04,120 --> 02:07:08,280
Speaker 13: And when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military

2386
02:07:08,400 --> 02:07:13,520
Speaker 13: counterinsurgency against protesters. It's just it really puts Jews in danger,

2387
02:07:13,920 --> 02:07:17,880
Speaker 13: you know, not to mention Palestinians and the Muslims, you know,

2388
02:07:17,920 --> 02:07:22,880
Speaker 13: basically all groups, right, because sure there's occasionally a stray

2389
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:26,400
Speaker 13: anti Semitic comment that shows up at protests, because anti

2390
02:07:26,400 --> 02:07:30,440
Speaker 13: Semitism is part of our world. There's anti blackness, injustice movements,

2391
02:07:30,720 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 13: antiology gutsppistry, and anti Semitism, I'm sure, but that's no

2392
02:07:34,760 --> 02:07:38,120
Speaker 13: comparison to when you have like Elon Musk, the richest

2393
02:07:38,120 --> 02:07:40,200
Speaker 13: person in the world, one of the most powerful people

2394
02:07:40,200 --> 02:07:43,080
Speaker 13: in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in patriot

2395
02:07:43,080 --> 02:07:46,280
Speaker 13: against whites. Right, there's no comparisons in terms of power

2396
02:07:46,320 --> 02:07:49,360
Speaker 13: and threat level, So it's really making Jews less.

2397
02:07:49,160 --> 02:07:51,320
Speaker 7: Say yeah, And we also talk about the fact that

2398
02:07:51,560 --> 02:07:55,680
Speaker 7: because anti Semitic conspiracy theories are such a foundational part

2399
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:58,400
Speaker 7: of the rights form of populism, it's sort of how

2400
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:02,680
Speaker 7: they explains anger and energy from the base that there's

2401
02:08:02,720 --> 02:08:04,720
Speaker 7: really no way to detach it, and so it ends

2402
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:07,040
Speaker 7: up being this foundational piece that even when they talk

2403
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:10,480
Speaker 7: about Israel consistently, the way that they've built a connection

2404
02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:13,000
Speaker 7: with their base is by trumping up towards Soros or

2405
02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:16,400
Speaker 7: Rothschild's conspiracy theories or basically presenting kind of us in

2406
02:08:16,520 --> 02:08:20,080
Speaker 7: them populous narrative around theories about globalists and things like that.

2407
02:08:20,160 --> 02:08:23,240
Speaker 7: So there's really no comparison that we're talking about anti

2408
02:08:23,200 --> 02:08:25,440
Speaker 7: simpatism when it shows up on the left versus the

2409
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:28,560
Speaker 7: really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right.

2410
02:08:29,280 --> 02:08:31,200
Speaker 7: And like Ben was saying, right now, we have a

2411
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:34,560
Speaker 7: situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of

2412
02:08:34,640 --> 02:08:37,839
Speaker 7: Israel and using that as their evidence of support for Jews,

2413
02:08:37,840 --> 02:08:42,120
Speaker 7: and then pushing great replacement theory claims which are inherently

2414
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:45,440
Speaker 7: anti Semitic on the one hand, or really kind of

2415
02:08:45,520 --> 02:08:48,840
Speaker 7: mobilizing Jews in their rhetoric for their own kind of

2416
02:08:48,840 --> 02:08:51,320
Speaker 7: geopolitical aims, which again is not based out of like

2417
02:08:51,320 --> 02:08:53,880
Speaker 7: a deeply held love for Jews. It's either built on

2418
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:57,680
Speaker 7: sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just simply an

2419
02:08:57,720 --> 02:09:00,960
Speaker 7: opportunistic use of this might already grew up to sort

2420
02:09:00,960 --> 02:09:04,480
Speaker 7: of push their other political values, which itself is kind

2421
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:07,360
Speaker 7: of a deeply held anti Semitic way of treating the

2422
02:09:07,400 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 7: Jewish community. And so when we're looking at this, we

2423
02:09:10,160 --> 02:09:13,560
Speaker 7: can't let the rhetoric that's become the dominate actually stand

2424
02:09:13,680 --> 02:09:16,520
Speaker 7: for how we understand anti Semitism because it's been so

2425
02:09:16,560 --> 02:09:17,640
Speaker 7: politically motivated.

2426
02:09:18,000 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, as a researcher has it has been

2427
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:23,840
Speaker 6: quite frustrating because I've used to, you know, and a

2428
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:25,760
Speaker 6: lot of people used to be able to rely on

2429
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:29,480
Speaker 6: some degree on like data aggorates like the ADL and

2430
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:32,760
Speaker 6: putting together like lists of incidents, like maps. And as

2431
02:09:32,760 --> 02:09:35,640
Speaker 6: I was putting together my piece looking at this uptic

2432
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:38,360
Speaker 6: and anti Semitism a few months ago, I was, you know,

2433
02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:42,040
Speaker 6: looking through this ADL map and the amount of like

2434
02:09:42,160 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 6: equivocation between just a standard pro Palestine protest protest that

2435
02:09:47,520 --> 02:09:49,840
Speaker 6: I was present at, and I was like, this was

2436
02:09:50,120 --> 02:09:53,920
Speaker 6: a Jewish led protest, and having that be equivocated with

2437
02:09:54,120 --> 02:09:57,720
Speaker 6: acts of like actual like neo Nazi terrorism as well

2438
02:09:57,720 --> 02:10:00,840
Speaker 6: as acts of like genuine anti semitism from people on

2439
02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:04,280
Speaker 6: the left. Basically it's resulting in like data poisoning, which

2440
02:10:04,280 --> 02:10:06,520
Speaker 6: makes it really hard to actually unpack some of these

2441
02:10:06,560 --> 02:10:09,440
Speaker 6: like larger issues that are that are facing both like

2442
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:13,600
Speaker 6: Jewish people, people who are very concerned about Palestine and

2443
02:10:13,640 --> 02:10:15,480
Speaker 6: people who take like the threat of like you know,

2444
02:10:15,640 --> 02:10:17,480
Speaker 6: you know, far right nationalism quite seriously.

2445
02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:21,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, I went through all of the ADLs twenty twenty

2446
02:10:21,040 --> 02:10:24,120
Speaker 7: three anti semitism data with like in this project with

2447
02:10:24,160 --> 02:10:27,360
Speaker 7: Jewish currents, and the reality is is that the standard

2448
02:10:27,440 --> 02:10:31,280
Speaker 7: they use on sort of like left oriented Palestine protests

2449
02:10:31,760 --> 02:10:35,640
Speaker 7: is to have almost any measure of support for Palestinians

2450
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:38,320
Speaker 7: or any kind of global call for justice in Palestine

2451
02:10:38,360 --> 02:10:41,560
Speaker 7: that is de facto anti semitism, And like you said,

2452
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:44,680
Speaker 7: it then overwhelms the data of sort of shuts out

2453
02:10:44,800 --> 02:10:47,560
Speaker 7: other things. And the way that they even set up

2454
02:10:47,600 --> 02:10:50,960
Speaker 7: the reporting system just privileges those kind of protests, so

2455
02:10:51,000 --> 02:10:54,000
Speaker 7: people it teaches, for example, they'll partner with the organizations

2456
02:10:54,000 --> 02:10:56,480
Speaker 7: and show people how to report, and so they'll end

2457
02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:00,480
Speaker 7: up mass reporting these protest events and then underreporting white

2458
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:03,440
Speaker 7: nationalist incidents or like violent incidents. So what you end

2459
02:11:03,520 --> 02:11:06,720
Speaker 7: up seeing in their data is that they've actually undercoded

2460
02:11:06,800 --> 02:11:09,280
Speaker 7: white nationalist events because of the way that they kind

2461
02:11:09,280 --> 02:11:11,920
Speaker 7: of set up the data, and they don't really track

2462
02:11:12,040 --> 02:11:15,880
Speaker 7: things like housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, and extews. Those kind

2463
02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:17,760
Speaker 7: of things really don't fit into their model. So what

2464
02:11:17,800 --> 02:11:20,320
Speaker 7: you end up with is this kind of map that

2465
02:11:20,480 --> 02:11:22,880
Speaker 7: just privileges people saying from the River to the Sea

2466
02:11:23,040 --> 02:11:26,840
Speaker 7: is like this inherently anti Semitic meme, and then undercounts

2467
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:30,080
Speaker 7: like what often Jews will report as what makes them

2468
02:11:30,080 --> 02:11:33,560
Speaker 7: feeling unsafe, comments of work, or actual pressures when buying homes,

2469
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:36,160
Speaker 7: things like that, like that doesn't really show up. You've

2470
02:11:36,200 --> 02:11:38,640
Speaker 7: experiences of Jews in prison, those don't show up. So

2471
02:11:38,800 --> 02:11:41,400
Speaker 7: you end up with this really skewed image on what

2472
02:11:41,440 --> 02:11:44,640
Speaker 7: it is, where you assume that the left is overwhelming

2473
02:11:44,720 --> 02:11:47,360
Speaker 7: the responsible party, and then it actually in visualizes a

2474
02:11:47,440 --> 02:11:51,000
Speaker 7: pretty growing force on the right, and even institutionally just

2475
02:11:51,000 --> 02:11:54,760
Speaker 7: like in structures of kind of like American culture. So

2476
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:56,880
Speaker 7: it's really hard then to say, like, well, how do

2477
02:11:56,960 --> 02:12:00,600
Speaker 7: I know what's actually happening here? The adail's the largest organization.

2478
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:04,200
Speaker 7: Every organization then uses their data where am I going?

2479
02:12:04,360 --> 02:12:06,760
Speaker 7: It leads you in a really big kind of a

2480
02:12:06,800 --> 02:12:08,720
Speaker 7: gap in how to understand what's happening. So we can

2481
02:12:08,760 --> 02:12:11,000
Speaker 7: look at pretty clear evidence that there's a rise in

2482
02:12:11,000 --> 02:12:14,040
Speaker 7: anti Semitism by looking at things like street attacks or

2483
02:12:14,080 --> 02:12:15,800
Speaker 7: by looking at the rhetoric on the right, but it's

2484
02:12:15,880 --> 02:12:17,560
Speaker 7: hard to get like a clear picture of it because

2485
02:12:17,600 --> 02:12:20,120
Speaker 7: every organization is that's oriented looking at the left.

2486
02:12:20,760 --> 02:12:22,520
Speaker 13: Like I was just going to say, like this goes

2487
02:12:22,880 --> 02:12:25,200
Speaker 13: way back to the ADL. Like you know, in our book,

2488
02:12:25,240 --> 02:12:27,880
Speaker 13: we talk about how even in the nineteen seventies and

2489
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:30,280
Speaker 13: the eighties, the eight I was like spying on left

2490
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:34,760
Speaker 13: wing activists as part of their pivot towards seeing the

2491
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:37,760
Speaker 13: most important side of anti Semitism on what they call

2492
02:12:37,800 --> 02:12:40,879
Speaker 13: the radical left right. In the nineteen seventies, as global

2493
02:12:40,880 --> 02:12:45,000
Speaker 13: criticism of Israel's occupation mounted after the nineteen sixty seven

2494
02:12:45,200 --> 02:12:47,960
Speaker 13: you know, six Day War Group sixty, ADL look really

2495
02:12:48,000 --> 02:12:51,280
Speaker 13: pivoted further from whatever original mission they may have had

2496
02:12:51,280 --> 02:12:55,880
Speaker 13: about like genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming like Israel

2497
02:12:55,920 --> 02:12:59,200
Speaker 13: defense organizations, and so in the seventies and eighties, like

2498
02:12:59,240 --> 02:13:02,400
Speaker 13: you saw them spuying on anti apart side activists, You

2499
02:13:02,400 --> 02:13:05,920
Speaker 13: saw them attacking Arab American you know, professors at universities.

2500
02:13:06,240 --> 02:13:09,480
Speaker 13: You saw them spying on acta even left than Jewish

2501
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:12,560
Speaker 13: groups like New Jewish Agenda, you know. And so it's

2502
02:13:12,600 --> 02:13:15,640
Speaker 13: not only Jonathan Greenblatt, It's not only since October seventh.

2503
02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:18,240
Speaker 13: The d L has been playing this role for a

2504
02:13:18,240 --> 02:13:21,600
Speaker 13: long time, along with a whole lot of Christian Zionists

2505
02:13:21,920 --> 02:13:25,120
Speaker 13: and both sides of the US political establishment and the

2506
02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:27,440
Speaker 13: other career is setting like the stakes are extremely high.

2507
02:13:27,640 --> 02:13:31,400
Speaker 13: The right and the center are trying to legislate their

2508
02:13:31,440 --> 02:13:35,200
Speaker 13: definition of anti Semitism, to destroy free speech and to

2509
02:13:35,280 --> 02:13:36,640
Speaker 13: protect his real's genocide.

2510
02:13:36,760 --> 02:13:38,920
Speaker 16: So the stakes are very high about this right now.

2511
02:13:49,000 --> 02:13:52,720
Speaker 6: I think one of the most troubling notions about how

2512
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:55,080
Speaker 6: those groups like the ADL and others that are kind

2513
02:13:55,120 --> 02:13:58,120
Speaker 6: of like like you said, like logging for legislation and

2514
02:13:58,200 --> 02:14:02,760
Speaker 6: trying to encourage like extreme crews on human rights protests

2515
02:14:02,880 --> 02:14:06,440
Speaker 6: and antigeness hide protests, is that this is also like

2516
02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:09,160
Speaker 6: materially harms a whole bunch of Jewish people who are

2517
02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:13,040
Speaker 6: involved in these protests and in organizing. You're trying to

2518
02:14:13,040 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 6: get the FBI to investigate Jewish people who are protesting

2519
02:14:17,080 --> 02:14:19,880
Speaker 6: against the genocide. And we saw this with the with

2520
02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:23,120
Speaker 6: the campus university protests. You saw this, you know, especially

2521
02:14:23,200 --> 02:14:25,680
Speaker 6: at Columbia of like a lot of a lot of

2522
02:14:25,680 --> 02:14:28,720
Speaker 6: these kids are Jewish people who are heavily involved in

2523
02:14:28,760 --> 02:14:32,680
Speaker 6: these protests and in calls to do a very extreme

2524
02:14:32,760 --> 02:14:36,200
Speaker 6: crackdown and investigations, It's hard to see how that's not

2525
02:14:36,280 --> 02:14:40,360
Speaker 6: just like calling for for our government to like further

2526
02:14:40,480 --> 02:14:43,680
Speaker 6: oppressed these Jewish people who don't like agree with one

2527
02:14:43,800 --> 02:14:45,160
Speaker 6: side's opinion on something.

2528
02:14:45,760 --> 02:14:48,080
Speaker 16: Yeah, yeah, you see it. You know, in the most

2529
02:14:48,200 --> 02:14:51,480
Speaker 16: kind of ironic twist of history.

2530
02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:54,800
Speaker 13: In Germany, where you know, the state was once a

2531
02:14:54,880 --> 02:14:58,240
Speaker 13: Nazi state, is enforcing some of the most brutal crackdowns

2532
02:14:58,280 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 13: on the poust on solidarity a speech, and Jews are

2533
02:15:01,720 --> 02:15:05,640
Speaker 13: disproportionately represented among the crackdown there. And so you have

2534
02:15:06,080 --> 02:15:09,240
Speaker 13: you know, German police pulling people with pipos and arresting them,

2535
02:15:09,440 --> 02:15:11,840
Speaker 13: you know, shutting down events with Jewish speakers. Right, So

2536
02:15:11,880 --> 02:15:15,720
Speaker 13: it's it's really like literally policing Jewish thought, right Like,

2537
02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:20,480
Speaker 13: we know, there's over a century of Jewish opposition to

2538
02:15:20,680 --> 02:15:23,880
Speaker 13: Zionism and Jewish solidarity with Palestinians, and from the very

2539
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:27,240
Speaker 13: beginnings of the Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian

2540
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:29,600
Speaker 13: movement in Christian Europe by the way, you know, and

2541
02:15:29,800 --> 02:15:33,240
Speaker 13: we've always had long traditions of Jews who have resisted it.

2542
02:15:33,280 --> 02:15:37,320
Speaker 13: And so when the state is legislating saying only like

2543
02:15:37,360 --> 02:15:41,880
Speaker 13: a certain expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also

2544
02:15:41,960 --> 02:15:43,440
Speaker 13: anti Semitism, right like.

2545
02:15:43,880 --> 02:15:46,480
Speaker 16: And we see it, you know, not only from Trump, right.

2546
02:15:46,560 --> 02:15:49,520
Speaker 13: You know, Trump will always say, oh, Jews who are democrats,

2547
02:15:49,600 --> 02:15:53,160
Speaker 13: Jews who are quote unquote disloyal to Israel are problematic.

2548
02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:55,280
Speaker 13: You also see it from Biden who says, you know,

2549
02:15:55,320 --> 02:15:58,040
Speaker 13: without Israel, there's not a Jew in the world who's safe.

2550
02:15:58,160 --> 02:15:58,360
Speaker 16: Right.

2551
02:15:58,440 --> 02:16:01,520
Speaker 13: So I think, you know, Jews who descend on Israel

2552
02:16:01,800 --> 02:16:04,960
Speaker 13: are rapidly becoming enemies in a way of the right,

2553
02:16:05,080 --> 02:16:06,960
Speaker 13: you know, and of forces align with it, right, And

2554
02:16:07,000 --> 02:16:09,720
Speaker 13: I think that's an aspect of of anti Semitism that's

2555
02:16:09,760 --> 02:16:11,040
Speaker 13: not talked about enough today.

2556
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:14,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, and there's a lot of examples of this too.

2557
02:16:14,360 --> 02:16:17,920
Speaker 7: During the Labor Party controversy around Corbin and anti Semitism,

2558
02:16:18,080 --> 02:16:21,680
Speaker 7: it was Jewish members who were overwhelmingly expelled from the party.

2559
02:16:21,720 --> 02:16:24,240
Speaker 7: I think it's almost like a dozen times more likely

2560
02:16:24,280 --> 02:16:26,720
Speaker 7: to face kind of consequences there, right, So like those

2561
02:16:26,800 --> 02:16:29,160
Speaker 7: ended up being the centerpiece of it. But I think

2562
02:16:29,200 --> 02:16:31,400
Speaker 7: even when you when you broaden out, this ends up

2563
02:16:31,440 --> 02:16:33,959
Speaker 7: being the case. And we kind of talked about this

2564
02:16:34,000 --> 02:16:36,720
Speaker 7: as like a good Jew bad Jew distinction, where like

2565
02:16:36,760 --> 02:16:40,160
Speaker 7: anti Semitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of

2566
02:16:40,160 --> 02:16:41,960
Speaker 7: the culture decides as a bad Jew or whatever the

2567
02:16:42,080 --> 02:16:44,400
Speaker 7: organization's decides, it's the bad version of a Jew, the

2568
02:16:44,480 --> 02:16:46,119
Speaker 7: kind of Jew that they don't want to actually deal with.

2569
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:50,720
Speaker 7: And this happens in this pro Israel consensus whereby the

2570
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:54,760
Speaker 7: khu Nyahu, basically the far By coalition running Israel right now,

2571
02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:58,200
Speaker 7: builds alliances that they need around the world with far

2572
02:16:58,200 --> 02:17:01,560
Speaker 7: Bright parties and Hungary in South Asia, Indian with the

2573
02:17:01,600 --> 02:17:05,039
Speaker 7: Hindian Nationalism, with other places, and then those movements are

2574
02:17:05,080 --> 02:17:09,440
Speaker 7: pretty explicitly anti Semitic, therefore making Jews in various countries

2575
02:17:09,480 --> 02:17:12,200
Speaker 7: around the diaspora less and less safe, right, and so

2576
02:17:12,320 --> 02:17:15,400
Speaker 7: this sort of model of making Israel the bottom line

2577
02:17:15,600 --> 02:17:18,600
Speaker 7: on defending against anti Semitism is one that strengthened the right,

2578
02:17:19,040 --> 02:17:22,680
Speaker 7: helped to build up Christian nationalism domestically, and then that

2579
02:17:22,720 --> 02:17:25,920
Speaker 7: creates this kind of general culture of unsafety for Jews

2580
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:28,000
Speaker 7: where the only Jewish voices that are then held up

2581
02:17:28,040 --> 02:17:31,600
Speaker 7: are the ones that justify Christian nationalism on the one hand,

2582
02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:34,760
Speaker 7: like you'll see at the National Conservatism Conference, or ones

2583
02:17:34,840 --> 02:17:37,600
Speaker 7: who are so aggressively pro Israel that they're totally willing

2584
02:17:37,640 --> 02:17:40,440
Speaker 7: to partner with Christian science groups or the far right

2585
02:17:40,480 --> 02:17:43,959
Speaker 7: wing of the Republican Party or national conservative parties in Europe.

2586
02:17:44,080 --> 02:17:46,480
Speaker 7: And so this ends up as a situation where like

2587
02:17:46,600 --> 02:17:49,960
Speaker 7: a increasing number of Jews, particularly in the US, or

2588
02:17:50,040 --> 02:17:53,120
Speaker 7: Jews around the left, which again is still disproportionately Jewish,

2589
02:17:53,320 --> 02:17:56,640
Speaker 7: feel increasingly targeted by the political consensus, and at the

2590
02:17:56,640 --> 02:17:59,200
Speaker 7: same time, this pro Israel rhetoric ends up being with

2591
02:17:59,240 --> 02:18:02,000
Speaker 7: the fact of sure by which anyone's kind of set to.

2592
02:18:02,320 --> 02:18:02,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.

2593
02:18:02,840 --> 02:18:04,360
Speaker 6: Like there was this part in the book where you

2594
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:07,240
Speaker 6: were talking about the good Jew bad Jew binary, specifically

2595
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:10,160
Speaker 6: on the left, where there's like a minority of Jews

2596
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:13,080
Speaker 6: who identify as anti or non Zionist who are very

2597
02:18:13,120 --> 02:18:17,119
Speaker 6: like celebrated, sometimes maybe even in like a tokenizing kind

2598
02:18:17,120 --> 02:18:19,320
Speaker 6: of way, while the rest of Jewish people who do

2599
02:18:19,360 --> 02:18:23,560
Speaker 6: not identify as such are belittled as unworthy or like untrustworthy,

2600
02:18:23,800 --> 02:18:27,320
Speaker 6: where their opinions are dismissed or seen as morally compromised

2601
02:18:27,360 --> 02:18:29,879
Speaker 6: on like an inherent level. And this can also be

2602
02:18:30,000 --> 02:18:32,520
Speaker 6: coupled with this assumption that like every Jew is a

2603
02:18:32,520 --> 02:18:35,640
Speaker 6: secret Zionist until proven otherwise, and you have to like

2604
02:18:35,720 --> 02:18:38,640
Speaker 6: get every new Jewish person you meet to like prove

2605
02:18:38,720 --> 02:18:41,320
Speaker 6: to you that they're not secretly as Zionist, which is,

2606
02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:42,879
Speaker 6: you know, very antisemitic.

2607
02:18:43,200 --> 02:18:44,680
Speaker 3: And we also do have this good.

2608
02:18:44,600 --> 02:18:47,920
Speaker 6: Jew bad Jew binary mirrored in like an inverted form

2609
02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:51,560
Speaker 6: on the right, with Zionist Jews, you know, being seen

2610
02:18:51,600 --> 02:18:55,080
Speaker 6: as the good ones, and anti Zionist Jews have their

2611
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:58,560
Speaker 6: like jewishness questioned or are seen as like untrustworthy or

2612
02:18:58,600 --> 02:19:03,000
Speaker 6: inherently evil. And I do believe it is worth discussing

2613
02:19:03,520 --> 02:19:06,360
Speaker 6: kind of the flip side of this, and I think

2614
02:19:06,560 --> 02:19:09,440
Speaker 6: avoiding talking about actual antisemitism on the left I think

2615
02:19:09,840 --> 02:19:13,680
Speaker 6: only serves to harm all of us, and because it

2616
02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:15,840
Speaker 6: is something that I think is happening, and I think

2617
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:18,680
Speaker 6: should be talked about even if it makes people like uncomfortable.

2618
02:19:19,040 --> 02:19:20,840
Speaker 6: And I think it's a it is a mistake to

2619
02:19:21,080 --> 02:19:23,040
Speaker 6: assume that just because you're on the left, that you're

2620
02:19:23,040 --> 02:19:27,560
Speaker 6: like somehow immune to antisemitic thinking, whether purposeful or not.

2621
02:19:27,680 --> 02:19:29,840
Speaker 6: Like like both of you mentioned, like we live in

2622
02:19:29,879 --> 02:19:33,720
Speaker 6: a society that has a great degree of structural anti Semitism,

2623
02:19:34,120 --> 02:19:36,320
Speaker 6: and a lot of these people, I think, who might

2624
02:19:36,360 --> 02:19:38,680
Speaker 6: be attending some of these protests or might just be

2625
02:19:38,680 --> 02:19:41,840
Speaker 6: posting online who knows, might not even be intentionally spreading

2626
02:19:41,840 --> 02:19:44,200
Speaker 6: anti Semitism, right, but in action, that's kind of what

2627
02:19:44,240 --> 02:19:47,120
Speaker 6: they're invoking through like ideas of like you know, the

2628
02:19:47,240 --> 02:19:50,320
Speaker 6: Zionist cabal that secretly controls all of the media, all

2629
02:19:50,520 --> 02:19:52,920
Speaker 6: all of all of the government. You know, those types

2630
02:19:52,959 --> 02:19:55,560
Speaker 6: of things. We're starting to like invoke these like larger

2631
02:19:56,080 --> 02:19:59,720
Speaker 6: secretive organizations that are that are pre planning this whole thing.

2632
02:20:00,240 --> 02:20:02,240
Speaker 6: And like just to some degree from a lot of

2633
02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:05,120
Speaker 6: the discourse that you see, I feel like some people

2634
02:20:05,120 --> 02:20:08,360
Speaker 6: think they can just like control f Jews to Zionists,

2635
02:20:09,000 --> 02:20:12,120
Speaker 6: and like if you're able to control f Jews to

2636
02:20:12,200 --> 02:20:15,160
Speaker 6: Zionists and the sentence still works, that means that you're

2637
02:20:15,160 --> 02:20:18,160
Speaker 6: doing it wrong. That means that you're probably approaching this

2638
02:20:18,520 --> 02:20:21,120
Speaker 6: from a problematic standpoint. And there's a whole bunch of

2639
02:20:21,120 --> 02:20:23,280
Speaker 6: aspects about this sort of thing that you do talk

2640
02:20:23,280 --> 02:20:26,920
Speaker 6: about in the book, like, you know, including identifying Judaism

2641
02:20:27,120 --> 02:20:31,680
Speaker 6: with Zionism and how that also only hurts all of us,

2642
02:20:32,240 --> 02:20:36,119
Speaker 6: including this like weird uptick in like Jewish race science

2643
02:20:36,520 --> 02:20:38,680
Speaker 6: that you're starting to see more and more of claiming

2644
02:20:38,680 --> 02:20:42,320
Speaker 6: that like all modern Jewish people only come from Europe.

2645
02:20:42,720 --> 02:20:44,600
Speaker 6: And it's like there's just a whole bunch of this

2646
02:20:44,640 --> 02:20:46,600
Speaker 6: kind of stuff that we're all kind of pushing to

2647
02:20:46,640 --> 02:20:48,560
Speaker 6: the side. But I do believe it is like worth

2648
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:50,760
Speaker 6: talking about in some degree because this is going to

2649
02:20:51,320 --> 02:20:54,920
Speaker 6: not only harm people who are calling for an end

2650
02:20:54,920 --> 02:20:57,280
Speaker 6: to the genocide in Gaza. I think it does like

2651
02:20:57,360 --> 02:21:00,240
Speaker 6: strengthen this notion that a lot of this and this

2652
02:21:00,360 --> 02:21:03,199
Speaker 6: project is built on, which is saying that we need

2653
02:21:03,680 --> 02:21:06,800
Speaker 6: Israel as a way to secure safety for Jewish people

2654
02:21:06,879 --> 02:21:07,600
Speaker 6: around the world.

2655
02:21:08,280 --> 02:21:10,879
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think we talk about this, you know, we

2656
02:21:10,879 --> 02:21:12,800
Speaker 7: have a couple of chapters that talk kind of explicitly

2657
02:21:12,840 --> 02:21:15,200
Speaker 7: about this at different points in the history. But I

2658
02:21:15,200 --> 02:21:17,600
Speaker 7: think there's a tendency, and I kind of get where

2659
02:21:17,640 --> 02:21:20,560
Speaker 7: this comes from. To basically see any ally or any

2660
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:23,039
Speaker 7: kind of voice in support of a movement as like

2661
02:21:23,080 --> 02:21:25,760
Speaker 7: a partner, particularly when you're trying to build like mass

2662
02:21:25,840 --> 02:21:29,000
Speaker 7: support against something that basically has kind of mass opposition

2663
02:21:29,040 --> 02:21:32,000
Speaker 7: on the other side, like liberating Palestine. But what you

2664
02:21:32,040 --> 02:21:35,440
Speaker 7: see oftentimes when you see a mooment grow really dramatically,

2665
02:21:35,480 --> 02:21:37,400
Speaker 7: really quickly, is that there's just not a kind of

2666
02:21:37,440 --> 02:21:40,840
Speaker 7: like common baseline understanding always of that, and conspiracy theories

2667
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:43,120
Speaker 7: are a great way to fill the gap on them. Yeah,

2668
02:21:43,360 --> 02:21:45,640
Speaker 7: and that's true of really any movement. It's just that,

2669
02:21:45,720 --> 02:21:49,000
Speaker 7: in particular, in this case, we have this long history

2670
02:21:49,000 --> 02:21:52,560
Speaker 7: of anti Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power in particular,

2671
02:21:52,600 --> 02:21:55,240
Speaker 7: and then we're talking about sort of like powerful political

2672
02:21:55,280 --> 02:21:58,080
Speaker 7: actors on the other and so making clear distinctions is

2673
02:21:58,120 --> 02:22:00,640
Speaker 7: just not there necessarily. So, you know, we talked with

2674
02:22:00,680 --> 02:22:03,280
Speaker 7: lots of folks that have been sort of litmus tested

2675
02:22:03,400 --> 02:22:06,720
Speaker 7: when entering kind of less spaces about Zientism. I talk

2676
02:22:06,800 --> 02:22:09,680
Speaker 7: to folks where other organizers ask to see their passport

2677
02:22:09,760 --> 02:22:13,440
Speaker 7: before they're allowed to come to media's crazy. It's it's wild,

2678
02:22:13,480 --> 02:22:15,680
Speaker 7: and you think in most of the cases people we

2679
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:18,080
Speaker 7: kind of identify that as being kind of wild. We

2680
02:22:18,200 --> 02:22:20,280
Speaker 7: make a lot of distinctions. We talk about, like the

2681
02:22:20,320 --> 02:22:23,600
Speaker 7: sort of difference between talking about a Israel lobby organization

2682
02:22:23,800 --> 02:22:26,640
Speaker 7: like APAC and its power or kind of a vague

2683
02:22:26,640 --> 02:22:30,199
Speaker 7: diffuse Israel lobby that you know, control controls Western politics,

2684
02:22:30,200 --> 02:22:30,959
Speaker 7: that kind of thing.

2685
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:34,560
Speaker 3: Like a like a this is predeces Israel lobby.

2686
02:22:34,680 --> 02:22:37,480
Speaker 7: Exactly exactly, and instead talking about like why would we

2687
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:40,160
Speaker 7: understand Israel is part of kind of a Western imperial

2688
02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:42,680
Speaker 7: project rather than the flip side, this kind of small

2689
02:22:42,720 --> 02:22:46,240
Speaker 7: country controlling Western foreign policy, that kind of thing, and

2690
02:22:46,320 --> 02:22:48,840
Speaker 7: make a lot of those clear distinctions. And again, I

2691
02:22:48,840 --> 02:22:51,760
Speaker 7: think it's been sort of suggested like these ideas eanthismenic

2692
02:22:51,800 --> 02:22:54,120
Speaker 7: ideas are a part of the culture. And you know,

2693
02:22:54,160 --> 02:22:56,160
Speaker 7: I've been around the left long enough to see like

2694
02:22:56,920 --> 02:22:59,840
Speaker 7: virulent transphobic ideas show up, to see like queer phobic

2695
02:23:00,200 --> 02:23:02,480
Speaker 7: is in general be very very present. There's no reason

2696
02:23:02,480 --> 02:23:05,240
Speaker 7: to believe that anti Semitism wouldn't show up here either.

2697
02:23:05,560 --> 02:23:08,200
Speaker 7: Where folks are sort of like consumed by anger, what

2698
02:23:08,280 --> 02:23:10,400
Speaker 7: people are looking for clear answers, what people are trying

2699
02:23:10,400 --> 02:23:13,200
Speaker 7: to identify that And I think the easy answer is

2700
02:23:13,240 --> 02:23:15,120
Speaker 7: often to paper over it. And I think what we

2701
02:23:15,160 --> 02:23:17,920
Speaker 7: talk about here is that that exactly is what sort

2702
02:23:17,959 --> 02:23:20,720
Speaker 7: of pro Israel voices want in this case, is to

2703
02:23:20,920 --> 02:23:23,080
Speaker 7: know that the Left isn't good to deal with it,

2704
02:23:23,160 --> 02:23:25,280
Speaker 7: and so the alternative to that is to both like

2705
02:23:25,360 --> 02:23:27,560
Speaker 7: create like a sense of like how would we confront

2706
02:23:27,959 --> 02:23:31,440
Speaker 7: antisemitic institutions and where structural anti semitism comes from? And

2707
02:23:31,480 --> 02:23:33,840
Speaker 7: then also how do we deal with that internally? And

2708
02:23:33,879 --> 02:23:35,800
Speaker 7: we talk with a bunch of social movements that have

2709
02:23:35,879 --> 02:23:38,400
Speaker 7: done that. Right, anti fascists are actually pretty used to

2710
02:23:38,480 --> 02:23:40,800
Speaker 7: talking about anti semitism when it shows up on the left.

2711
02:23:40,800 --> 02:23:43,680
Speaker 7: That's pretty common. Jewish left has talked about this historically.

2712
02:23:43,680 --> 02:23:46,440
Speaker 7: There's other voices, So bringing that back and sort of

2713
02:23:46,480 --> 02:23:48,640
Speaker 7: making that a safe place to confront and then then

2714
02:23:48,760 --> 02:23:51,440
Speaker 7: figure out then where is it like you know, just

2715
02:23:51,440 --> 02:23:53,200
Speaker 7: a bad idea that you deal with and you talk

2716
02:23:53,240 --> 02:23:55,360
Speaker 7: about you have like education, and where do you draw

2717
02:23:55,480 --> 02:23:57,720
Speaker 7: lines where like you know, this is now not a

2718
02:23:57,760 --> 02:24:00,120
Speaker 7: person that's not allowed in or these are voices we

2719
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:01,800
Speaker 7: can't partner with that kind of thing. I think that's

2720
02:24:01,800 --> 02:24:03,440
Speaker 7: something people work out on the ground.

2721
02:24:03,720 --> 02:24:06,640
Speaker 6: No, and you make a really good comparison in the

2722
02:24:06,680 --> 02:24:11,879
Speaker 6: book about how like anti Smdic conspiracy theories inhibit a

2723
02:24:11,879 --> 02:24:15,680
Speaker 6: actual understanding of like the mechanisms of capital right, like

2724
02:24:16,480 --> 02:24:20,320
Speaker 6: it makes you unable to actually like analyze how capitalism operates.

2725
02:24:20,560 --> 02:24:25,160
Speaker 6: And similarly, having like an anti Semitic conspiratorial view of

2726
02:24:25,200 --> 02:24:28,600
Speaker 6: like anti Zionism, that also will mask the root cause

2727
02:24:28,640 --> 02:24:32,160
Speaker 6: of Palestinian impression by distracting from like the like the

2728
02:24:32,280 --> 02:24:36,400
Speaker 6: very like real like geopolitical mechanisms that have caused this

2729
02:24:36,480 --> 02:24:40,039
Speaker 6: situation to take place, and distracting from that with like

2730
02:24:40,080 --> 02:24:42,840
Speaker 6: these tales of like you describe it as like innate

2731
02:24:42,959 --> 02:24:46,160
Speaker 6: Jewish wickedness or a global Zionist power. And I think

2732
02:24:46,160 --> 02:24:49,320
Speaker 6: that's a really good understanding because people often, like I think,

2733
02:24:49,520 --> 02:24:52,040
Speaker 6: have a general idea that like, yeah, anti Semitism is

2734
02:24:52,080 --> 02:24:53,520
Speaker 6: like in a lot of ways used as a way

2735
02:24:53,560 --> 02:24:57,920
Speaker 6: to not fully confront like the mechanisms of capitalism, and

2736
02:24:58,160 --> 02:25:00,320
Speaker 6: realizing how you know, it's kind of a kind of

2737
02:25:00,320 --> 02:25:03,440
Speaker 6: like a similar situation with Palestine is a way for

2738
02:25:03,480 --> 02:25:06,560
Speaker 6: people to understand that a little bit easier and to

2739
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:09,440
Speaker 6: like reiterate the point about how you know you're not

2740
02:25:09,480 --> 02:25:11,600
Speaker 6: immune to anti semitism just because you're on the left right.

2741
02:25:11,959 --> 02:25:13,760
Speaker 6: Something else you also bring up in the book is

2742
02:25:13,800 --> 02:25:19,240
Speaker 6: like Marxist Leninism has a very mixed history with their

2743
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:21,880
Speaker 6: relationship to anti Semitism, and I think you do see

2744
02:25:21,879 --> 02:25:24,120
Speaker 6: this with with with the degree of the discourse on

2745
02:25:24,160 --> 02:25:27,240
Speaker 6: this issue. You know, if you compare you know, anarchist

2746
02:25:27,360 --> 02:25:31,600
Speaker 6: viewpoints on like statism and anti Zionism to a whole

2747
02:25:31,600 --> 02:25:34,800
Speaker 6: bunch of Marxist Leninists talking about this issue, I do

2748
02:25:34,840 --> 02:25:38,160
Speaker 6: believe there is you know, generally maybe more anti Semitic

2749
02:25:38,240 --> 02:25:41,760
Speaker 6: undertones among some of the more like statist communists. And

2750
02:25:41,840 --> 02:25:44,680
Speaker 6: I think you talk about like the Soviet Union's own

2751
02:25:44,720 --> 02:25:50,160
Speaker 6: oppression of Jewish people and kind of the continued programs

2752
02:25:50,200 --> 02:25:52,560
Speaker 6: that happened even after the end of World War Two.

2753
02:25:53,000 --> 02:25:55,560
Speaker 16: Yeah, I'd say, like a history of the nineteenth and

2754
02:25:55,600 --> 02:25:58,480
Speaker 16: the twentieth century left, I think the record of both

2755
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:01,720
Speaker 16: camps has been fairly mixed. I think it was anarchist

2756
02:26:01,840 --> 02:26:05,280
Speaker 16: like you know, Bakunen who maybe like the ins yeah, totally.

2757
02:26:05,360 --> 02:26:07,039
Speaker 13: And you know, like I guess I have to also

2758
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:09,600
Speaker 13: have to say, you know, the the was the nineteen

2759
02:26:09,760 --> 02:26:12,879
Speaker 13: seventeen October Revolution, and that was like probably one of

2760
02:26:12,879 --> 02:26:16,880
Speaker 13: the first times that are left led society did pass

2761
02:26:16,959 --> 02:26:20,000
Speaker 13: you know, laws out long antisemitism and then like they did,

2762
02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:21,280
Speaker 13: you know, defeat the Nazis.

2763
02:26:21,280 --> 02:26:23,039
Speaker 16: So there I have to give them some credit where

2764
02:26:23,080 --> 02:26:25,720
Speaker 16: it's due. But yes, there's also like a very mixed,

2765
02:26:25,800 --> 02:26:26,080
Speaker 16: you know.

2766
02:26:26,080 --> 02:26:29,560
Speaker 13: Record, especially in the thirties and in the forties and beyond,

2767
02:26:29,560 --> 02:26:32,840
Speaker 13: and certainly yeah, today, I would completely agree with you

2768
02:26:32,879 --> 02:26:36,680
Speaker 13: that like the more statist camps on the left are

2769
02:26:36,959 --> 02:26:40,400
Speaker 13: the most kind of aligned with conspiratorial thinking with campus

2770
02:26:40,440 --> 02:26:43,039
Speaker 13: and yeah, I really like the way that you broke

2771
02:26:43,120 --> 02:26:47,200
Speaker 13: down just how these conspiracy theory can distract us from

2772
02:26:47,240 --> 02:26:49,199
Speaker 13: the root causes of power. And that's really I think

2773
02:26:49,760 --> 02:26:53,160
Speaker 13: where if you want to develop like a structural understanding

2774
02:26:53,160 --> 02:26:56,240
Speaker 13: of anti Semitism and how it connects to capitalism and

2775
02:26:56,280 --> 02:26:58,440
Speaker 13: all the other systems of oppression, that's where you got

2776
02:26:58,480 --> 02:27:03,199
Speaker 13: to go, right Seeing how, especially in times of crisis

2777
02:27:03,280 --> 02:27:07,879
Speaker 13: and massive discontent like today, with the rise of nationalism,

2778
02:27:08,720 --> 02:27:12,440
Speaker 13: with you know, widespread alienation, that's when anti Semitism really

2779
02:27:12,520 --> 02:27:17,440
Speaker 13: rises and is mobilized by authoritarian and nationalists, you know leaders,

2780
02:27:18,120 --> 02:27:20,560
Speaker 13: when there's millions of people who are are fed up

2781
02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:23,800
Speaker 13: that they don't have a job, they don't have any savings.

2782
02:27:24,040 --> 02:27:26,680
Speaker 13: They know the media is lying to them, they know

2783
02:27:26,959 --> 02:27:30,400
Speaker 13: that politicians don't represent them. That's when these conspiracy theories,

2784
02:27:30,480 --> 02:27:32,560
Speaker 13: you know, really take root on the right and on

2785
02:27:32,600 --> 02:27:34,920
Speaker 13: the left. And that's why you have you know, Trump

2786
02:27:35,080 --> 02:27:37,920
Speaker 13: and Steve Bannon and the rest of them, you know, saying, oh,

2787
02:27:37,920 --> 02:27:40,439
Speaker 13: go look at the globalists, Go look at George Soros,

2788
02:27:40,480 --> 02:27:42,160
Speaker 13: you go look at cultural Marxists.

2789
02:27:42,200 --> 02:27:42,400
Speaker 3: Right.

2790
02:27:42,440 --> 02:27:44,760
Speaker 16: And I think the more that you know, the left

2791
02:27:45,160 --> 02:27:48,800
Speaker 16: can advance our own understanding of why the world is

2792
02:27:48,840 --> 02:27:50,800
Speaker 16: so fucked up in how to make it better, then

2793
02:27:50,800 --> 02:27:53,480
Speaker 16: we can really undercut the root causes of anti Semitism

2794
02:27:53,600 --> 02:27:57,119
Speaker 16: and move more people into our coalitions. So yeah, that's

2795
02:27:57,160 --> 02:27:57,640
Speaker 16: really key.

2796
02:27:57,640 --> 02:27:58,160
Speaker 1: I think.

2797
02:28:08,680 --> 02:28:10,640
Speaker 6: I have two examples I like to kind of bring

2798
02:28:10,720 --> 02:28:13,560
Speaker 6: up as ways to like springboard discussions and like how

2799
02:28:13,560 --> 02:28:17,800
Speaker 6: we can actually like handle this going forward, whether that

2800
02:28:17,879 --> 02:28:21,200
Speaker 6: be you know, if you hear someone say something at

2801
02:28:21,200 --> 02:28:24,080
Speaker 6: a protest that makes you think that's a little questionable,

2802
02:28:24,720 --> 02:28:27,240
Speaker 6: or as ways to like actually just like continue like

2803
02:28:27,360 --> 02:28:31,600
Speaker 6: your own like active participation in calls for ceasefire and

2804
02:28:31,720 --> 02:28:35,200
Speaker 6: ending the genocide in Palestine and whatever justice in Palestine

2805
02:28:35,280 --> 02:28:38,200
Speaker 6: might look like. So a few months ago, I was

2806
02:28:38,200 --> 02:28:43,280
Speaker 6: at the Emory University campus occupation and maybe like a

2807
02:28:43,280 --> 02:28:47,080
Speaker 6: week in or so, Enemy of the Pod Jackson Hinkle

2808
02:28:47,560 --> 02:28:50,720
Speaker 6: showed up in person along with Hawes and a few

2809
02:28:50,720 --> 02:28:53,440
Speaker 6: of those kind of like cronies. Right, These are people

2810
02:28:53,720 --> 02:28:58,600
Speaker 6: who are like conservative communists, mega communists. They're basically like

2811
02:28:58,760 --> 02:29:02,200
Speaker 6: Douganists or like third persists, and they basically become influencers

2812
02:29:02,200 --> 02:29:05,000
Speaker 6: that monetize the genocide and gaza for their own like

2813
02:29:05,120 --> 02:29:09,720
Speaker 6: personal political profile. So this guy showed up one night

2814
02:29:10,080 --> 02:29:12,760
Speaker 6: and no one really knew what exactly to do, Like

2815
02:29:12,879 --> 02:29:15,640
Speaker 6: people knew who he was. There was people talking with organizers,

2816
02:29:16,040 --> 02:29:18,760
Speaker 6: and like organizers tried to talk with him and be like, hey,

2817
02:29:18,879 --> 02:29:22,960
Speaker 6: can you like not be here and he's like, well, no,

2818
02:29:23,320 --> 02:29:25,080
Speaker 6: I want to be here because blah blah blah blah

2819
02:29:25,080 --> 02:29:26,920
Speaker 6: blah blah blah. And you know, certain people would try

2820
02:29:26,920 --> 02:29:29,280
Speaker 6: to get into like political arguments with him, which is

2821
02:29:29,280 --> 02:29:31,959
Speaker 6: I think is completely useless. And it was. It was

2822
02:29:32,040 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 6: kind of a weird situation. And then we learned that

2823
02:29:35,480 --> 02:29:38,640
Speaker 6: he was slated to speak at an event the next day.

2824
02:29:38,879 --> 02:29:41,080
Speaker 6: Now it's unclear if he was kind of hijacking this

2825
02:29:41,120 --> 02:29:44,039
Speaker 6: event or if he was actually invited to speak, but regardless,

2826
02:29:44,080 --> 02:29:46,160
Speaker 6: he was going to show up and make some kind

2827
02:29:46,160 --> 02:29:49,600
Speaker 6: of speech at an event later that next day. So

2828
02:29:50,080 --> 02:29:53,560
Speaker 6: some people put together this flyer kind of going through

2829
02:29:53,760 --> 02:29:58,560
Speaker 6: Hinkle's politics, his history of anti semitism, rabid queer phobia, racism,

2830
02:29:58,840 --> 02:30:00,760
Speaker 6: all these things that explain kind of who he actually

2831
02:30:00,840 --> 02:30:04,960
Speaker 6: is as a person. And these flyers were distributed that morning,

2832
02:30:05,080 --> 02:30:08,200
Speaker 6: like before before he was slated to speak around the venue.

2833
02:30:08,720 --> 02:30:11,520
Speaker 6: As he went up on stage, a decent number of

2834
02:30:11,560 --> 02:30:14,200
Speaker 6: people in the audience who had these flyers protested to

2835
02:30:14,240 --> 02:30:17,040
Speaker 6: be like no, like you can't be here. He was

2836
02:30:17,160 --> 02:30:19,560
Speaker 6: escorted out of the building, and then he was escorted

2837
02:30:19,600 --> 02:30:22,000
Speaker 6: off of campus. I think this was a very effective

2838
02:30:22,160 --> 02:30:25,440
Speaker 6: way of handling a situation like this. It didn't give

2839
02:30:25,520 --> 02:30:27,720
Speaker 6: him like an opportunity for like extra clicks.

2840
02:30:27,760 --> 02:30:27,960
Speaker 11: You know.

2841
02:30:28,360 --> 02:30:32,360
Speaker 6: It wasn't a super volatile way to handle this. It

2842
02:30:32,440 --> 02:30:34,520
Speaker 6: was it was very simple. It was it was kind

2843
02:30:34,560 --> 02:30:36,680
Speaker 6: of elegant. There was just no way for him to

2844
02:30:36,720 --> 02:30:40,560
Speaker 6: really like weaponize this effectively. So we have something like

2845
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:42,680
Speaker 6: that as a way to like, you know, clamp down

2846
02:30:43,000 --> 02:30:46,400
Speaker 6: on people who are either disingenuous or just actually antisemitic.

2847
02:30:46,480 --> 02:30:50,279
Speaker 6: We're trying to like infiltrate or take over in some degree,

2848
02:30:50,720 --> 02:30:55,000
Speaker 6: this kind of general call to stop the genocide in Gaza. Meanwhile,

2849
02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:57,879
Speaker 6: a few weeks ago, there were protests in DC as

2850
02:30:57,920 --> 02:31:01,440
Speaker 6: net Nyahu was speaking to Congress, and there's this video

2851
02:31:01,520 --> 02:31:05,200
Speaker 6: going around of people like graffitiing the fake liberty bell

2852
02:31:05,600 --> 02:31:08,039
Speaker 6: with like just pro Palestine slogans and stuff, and like,

2853
02:31:08,040 --> 02:31:10,520
Speaker 6: everyone's freaking out about this. Not everybody, you know, a

2854
02:31:10,560 --> 02:31:13,560
Speaker 6: certain section of political people, we're freaking outbout this. A

2855
02:31:13,560 --> 02:31:15,560
Speaker 6: whole bunch of other people were like, Okay, well it's

2856
02:31:15,640 --> 02:31:16,800
Speaker 6: graffiti on a fake bell.

2857
02:31:16,840 --> 02:31:17,360
Speaker 3: Who cares?

2858
02:31:17,800 --> 02:31:20,720
Speaker 6: But I actually watched that whole video, and after they

2859
02:31:20,800 --> 02:31:23,720
Speaker 6: look at the Liberty bell, it pans over to this

2860
02:31:23,840 --> 02:31:28,480
Speaker 6: other monument nearby where in big red lettering is written

2861
02:31:28,680 --> 02:31:32,920
Speaker 6: Hamas is coming. And I see this as a pretty

2862
02:31:33,400 --> 02:31:37,280
Speaker 6: bad way to handle a situation like this, because from

2863
02:31:37,360 --> 02:31:39,160
Speaker 6: what I can tell here, all that matters is just

2864
02:31:39,200 --> 02:31:41,760
Speaker 6: being like edgy and freaking out libs, and it kind

2865
02:31:41,760 --> 02:31:45,600
Speaker 6: of destroys any ability to cultivate forward momentum. It's like

2866
02:31:45,680 --> 02:31:47,840
Speaker 6: they're doing it just so that Democrats will be pressured

2867
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:52,400
Speaker 6: into condemning it to reinforce like their own hopelessness, performative

2868
02:31:52,400 --> 02:31:55,600
Speaker 6: spiral of doing nothing but edgie graffiti as political praxis,

2869
02:31:56,040 --> 02:31:57,920
Speaker 6: And I see this as kind of a general pattern

2870
02:31:57,959 --> 02:32:01,199
Speaker 6: of people trying to establish themselves as like the most

2871
02:32:01,320 --> 02:32:04,440
Speaker 6: radical and using that as a weapon against anyone else.

2872
02:32:04,720 --> 02:32:07,000
Speaker 6: And it's just like a form of political posturing. It's

2873
02:32:07,040 --> 02:32:09,800
Speaker 6: it's hardly any different from posting a black square on Instagram.

2874
02:32:10,040 --> 02:32:13,000
Speaker 6: They don't want any actual movement or any actual change.

2875
02:32:13,080 --> 02:32:15,360
Speaker 6: They want to be the coolest, most correct people as

2876
02:32:15,440 --> 02:32:17,600
Speaker 6: the world ends. It's kind of like a cowardly way

2877
02:32:17,600 --> 02:32:20,200
Speaker 6: out because, as you point out in the book, it's

2878
02:32:20,280 --> 02:32:22,360
Speaker 6: kind of hell to actually have to deal with and

2879
02:32:22,440 --> 02:32:24,800
Speaker 6: work with people who have some degree of like morally

2880
02:32:24,840 --> 02:32:29,680
Speaker 6: compromised politics, and that actually requires like caring about the ends,

2881
02:32:30,160 --> 02:32:32,879
Speaker 6: but it's the means that make you look cool. Things

2882
02:32:32,879 --> 02:32:34,760
Speaker 6: like this are kind of bound to happen. At any

2883
02:32:34,840 --> 02:32:36,600
Speaker 6: kind of protest that has more than, like, you know,

2884
02:32:36,680 --> 02:32:39,000
Speaker 6: fifty people, right, there's going to be someone who does

2885
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:43,000
Speaker 6: something that the main protest is not aligned with. And

2886
02:32:43,440 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 6: on that note, like what advice would you have to

2887
02:32:46,560 --> 02:32:49,959
Speaker 6: people who are attending these protests and you see someone

2888
02:32:49,959 --> 02:32:52,640
Speaker 6: who maybe does something that's a little bit questionable whether

2889
02:32:52,680 --> 02:32:55,120
Speaker 6: that be you know, like harassing just a random like

2890
02:32:55,240 --> 02:32:59,360
Speaker 6: visibly Jewish person, or you know, writing graffiti on a synagogue. Right,

2891
02:32:59,400 --> 02:33:02,560
Speaker 6: these things that are like really not helpful and actually

2892
02:33:02,640 --> 02:33:06,240
Speaker 6: kind of do display a degree of maybe like like

2893
02:33:06,240 --> 02:33:08,439
Speaker 6: like coded anti Semitic motivation.

2894
02:33:09,240 --> 02:33:13,039
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I think that's prepaiding of habas on the statue.

2895
02:33:13,120 --> 02:33:14,960
Speaker 7: I think it's an interesting example because that was just

2896
02:33:15,040 --> 02:33:18,080
Speaker 7: brandished all over right wing media. You know, Tablet magazine

2897
02:33:18,080 --> 02:33:20,439
Speaker 7: did an article about how these folks should be deported

2898
02:33:21,240 --> 02:33:23,160
Speaker 7: with all their Instagram It was like a trending thing

2899
02:33:23,200 --> 02:33:26,440
Speaker 7: on Instagram, and it did very little like protests wise, right,

2900
02:33:26,560 --> 02:33:29,879
Speaker 7: And actually at that same demonstration, there's a number of rabbis,

2901
02:33:29,920 --> 02:33:33,120
Speaker 7: particularly kind of like movement elder rabbis Lindholtzeman, other folks

2902
02:33:33,120 --> 02:33:36,280
Speaker 7: that were arrested by cops, yeah, pretty brutally and then detained. Right,

2903
02:33:36,280 --> 02:33:39,359
Speaker 7: So there actually was these attacking like a Jewish contingent

2904
02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:43,040
Speaker 7: of like religious figures totally. I think also there's been

2905
02:33:43,040 --> 02:33:45,720
Speaker 7: a number of examples, I think where folks really just

2906
02:33:45,760 --> 02:33:48,120
Speaker 7: aren't prepared for something. And I think this is actually

2907
02:33:48,200 --> 02:33:51,120
Speaker 7: sort of a long conversation people should have on the left.

2908
02:33:51,160 --> 02:33:53,959
Speaker 7: I remember years ago, I was with a group that

2909
02:33:54,080 --> 02:33:56,680
Speaker 7: created sort of like an accountability document. The idea was

2910
02:33:56,760 --> 02:33:59,560
Speaker 7: is that if something happens in an organization, it often

2911
02:33:59,640 --> 02:34:04,280
Speaker 7: just organization. If there's interpersonal issues, if there's like interpersonal

2912
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:07,240
Speaker 7: trauma or assault, things like that, and so getting out

2913
02:34:07,240 --> 02:34:08,840
Speaker 7: in front of it and just like having a sense

2914
02:34:08,879 --> 02:34:10,360
Speaker 7: of like how you want to deal with things, and

2915
02:34:10,440 --> 02:34:12,600
Speaker 7: like having had consensus amongst folks with like this is

2916
02:34:12,640 --> 02:34:14,720
Speaker 7: like appropriate behavior, this is how we want to handle stuff.

2917
02:34:14,760 --> 02:34:17,680
Speaker 7: That's always a strong thing to do. But at did

2918
02:34:17,680 --> 02:34:19,840
Speaker 7: George I think it was at George Washington University campus

2919
02:34:19,840 --> 02:34:22,520
Speaker 7: at the end of April. Patrick Casey, who's formerly of

2920
02:34:22,520 --> 02:34:26,480
Speaker 7: Identity Europa and the American Identity Movement, showed up at

2921
02:34:26,520 --> 02:34:28,400
Speaker 7: the encampment and wanted to talk to people, want to

2922
02:34:28,440 --> 02:34:30,560
Speaker 7: ask them questions and that kind of thing. And people

2923
02:34:30,560 --> 02:34:33,320
Speaker 7: were totally obliged him. They were in photos with them,

2924
02:34:33,560 --> 02:34:35,440
Speaker 7: let him take video. It's because they didn't know who

2925
02:34:35,440 --> 02:34:38,640
Speaker 7: he was. Yeah, right, in reality, he didn't actually find

2926
02:34:38,680 --> 02:34:41,360
Speaker 7: anyone that was going to basically support his vision. He

2927
02:34:41,400 --> 02:34:44,120
Speaker 7: stopped people asked, you know, will you allow right wing

2928
02:34:44,120 --> 02:34:47,480
Speaker 7: anti zionists here? They basically said no. He did find

2929
02:34:47,520 --> 02:34:49,800
Speaker 7: one person with a hat that said Israel did nine

2930
02:34:49,800 --> 02:34:52,600
Speaker 7: to eleven, who then told him that the Jews projected Christ.

2931
02:34:52,600 --> 02:34:54,400
Speaker 7: But he was also kind of on the edges of

2932
02:34:54,440 --> 02:34:57,600
Speaker 7: the encampment. Sure, the reality is what happened was a

2933
02:34:57,600 --> 02:34:59,840
Speaker 7: white nationalist came into an encampment and took photos of

2934
02:35:00,080 --> 02:35:02,280
Speaker 7: use and posted them on a white nationalist website. That's

2935
02:35:02,320 --> 02:35:04,720
Speaker 7: what happened, you know. So there actually was anti semitism.

2936
02:35:04,879 --> 02:35:07,160
Speaker 7: It affected the Jews of the encampment, but no one

2937
02:35:07,280 --> 02:35:09,520
Speaker 7: know who it was. And I think the flip side

2938
02:35:09,520 --> 02:35:11,959
Speaker 7: of that is having partners with groups that actually do

2939
02:35:12,000 --> 02:35:13,680
Speaker 7: know who Patrick Casey is and be able to say, oh,

2940
02:35:13,760 --> 02:35:16,080
Speaker 7: that guy is not here, it's not legitimate. I think

2941
02:35:16,080 --> 02:35:19,720
Speaker 7: with someone like hinkele Maga communists, that's really confusing to

2942
02:35:19,800 --> 02:35:22,240
Speaker 7: people group. I mean, that's why he does it, Like

2943
02:35:22,320 --> 02:35:25,360
Speaker 7: it's a duginous and kind of grave zone types and

2944
02:35:25,440 --> 02:35:28,240
Speaker 7: this kind of version of authoritarian kind of like right

2945
02:35:28,360 --> 02:35:32,320
Speaker 7: leading right coded so called communists. It's there literally to

2946
02:35:32,360 --> 02:35:34,400
Speaker 7: confuse people and to bridge the gaps between the right

2947
02:35:34,400 --> 02:35:37,040
Speaker 7: and the left, and so again pilding that base of

2948
02:35:37,120 --> 02:35:40,039
Speaker 7: people talking to them, having like internal trainings about how

2949
02:35:40,080 --> 02:35:42,240
Speaker 7: this stuff works, and like, what these groups are? I

2950
02:35:42,240 --> 02:35:44,200
Speaker 7: think that's always going to be a good thing. We

2951
02:35:44,280 --> 02:35:47,119
Speaker 7: talked with one organizer who had an organization that had

2952
02:35:47,120 --> 02:35:50,359
Speaker 7: put together a training for other groups on anti semitism

2953
02:35:50,400 --> 02:35:52,440
Speaker 7: and invited all these groups to come, and you know,

2954
02:35:52,560 --> 02:35:54,760
Speaker 7: wanted to get feedback on the training. So they did

2955
02:35:54,800 --> 02:35:57,440
Speaker 7: the training and everyone kind of like thanked them and

2956
02:35:57,480 --> 02:35:59,800
Speaker 7: then went on to ask them questions. And the questions

2957
02:35:59,840 --> 02:36:02,760
Speaker 7: were exceedingly anti Semitic. It was things like, well, how

2958
02:36:02,760 --> 02:36:05,120
Speaker 7: do you talk about the New York housing market when

2959
02:36:05,320 --> 02:36:06,199
Speaker 7: clearly Jews.

2960
02:36:06,000 --> 02:36:07,160
Speaker 3: Go oh no.

2961
02:36:07,560 --> 02:36:10,480
Speaker 7: And these were major, major organizations and so basically they

2962
02:36:10,480 --> 02:36:11,879
Speaker 7: had like a choice like are we going to deal

2963
02:36:11,920 --> 02:36:13,800
Speaker 7: with this here? Are we going to cut these relationships?

2964
02:36:13,800 --> 02:36:15,760
Speaker 7: And they basically were like, Okay, let's talk about this,

2965
02:36:15,879 --> 02:36:16,480
Speaker 7: let's deal with it.

2966
02:36:16,560 --> 02:36:18,119
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and it moved.

2967
02:36:17,879 --> 02:36:20,160
Speaker 7: The organization is huge. Like they were like, we don't

2968
02:36:20,200 --> 02:36:22,480
Speaker 7: want to make these kind of decisions. We want to

2969
02:36:22,520 --> 02:36:24,920
Speaker 7: realize where we've made mistakes. That's not true if everyone

2970
02:36:25,040 --> 02:36:27,280
Speaker 7: do not be polyanna about it and assume it's always

2971
02:36:27,280 --> 02:36:28,760
Speaker 7: going to go overwell. But I think we have to

2972
02:36:28,760 --> 02:36:32,320
Speaker 7: actually attempt to make those changes. And the reason is

2973
02:36:32,320 --> 02:36:35,160
Speaker 7: is that the left and building kind of left social

2974
02:36:35,200 --> 02:36:38,920
Speaker 7: movements build on solidarity inequality. That's the only option we

2975
02:36:39,000 --> 02:36:41,520
Speaker 7: have to do something about anti Semitism. The right has

2976
02:36:41,600 --> 02:36:45,039
Speaker 7: never made Jews safer. We have right now a system

2977
02:36:45,080 --> 02:36:47,680
Speaker 7: where Israeli nationalism is supposed to be the primary vessel

2978
02:36:47,720 --> 02:36:49,560
Speaker 7: for Jewish safety. I don't know about you, but when

2979
02:36:49,560 --> 02:36:51,160
Speaker 7: I look at Israel, I don't think to myself, what

2980
02:36:51,240 --> 02:36:53,920
Speaker 7: a tremendously bumps of safe Jews? Like this, we have

2981
02:36:54,000 --> 02:36:56,680
Speaker 7: a situation that I don't think the political solutions actually

2982
02:36:56,680 --> 02:36:59,680
Speaker 7: offer Jewish safety and instead just create like more and

2983
02:36:59,720 --> 02:37:02,440
Speaker 7: more social division and more and more social hierarchy. So

2984
02:37:02,600 --> 02:37:04,240
Speaker 7: we have to kind of look at the left and

2985
02:37:04,320 --> 02:37:07,080
Speaker 7: how to build a left that can confront anti Semitism,

2986
02:37:07,280 --> 02:37:09,320
Speaker 7: and that is really the only option we're being given.

2987
02:37:09,720 --> 02:37:14,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think like avoiding this whole issue out of

2988
02:37:14,160 --> 02:37:16,080
Speaker 6: fears that like it, like it, like somehow like takes

2989
02:37:16,120 --> 02:37:19,039
Speaker 6: away from other bad things that are happening in the world,

2990
02:37:19,080 --> 02:37:21,959
Speaker 6: like it, like somehow it takes away from the genocide

2991
02:37:21,959 --> 02:37:25,160
Speaker 6: in Gaza. I think is so misplaced thinking because I

2992
02:37:25,280 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 6: view this as all part of the same struggle and

2993
02:37:28,760 --> 02:37:32,560
Speaker 6: actual like active efforts to combat any any degree of

2994
02:37:32,600 --> 02:37:36,240
Speaker 6: anti Semitism that is witnessed, I think will serve to

2995
02:37:36,320 --> 02:37:41,640
Speaker 6: only like strengthen a general like overall united call to

2996
02:37:41,680 --> 02:37:44,360
Speaker 6: stop what's going on. And I think like people have

2997
02:37:44,440 --> 02:37:47,200
Speaker 6: this like inclination that maybe we shouldn't talk about it,

2998
02:37:47,200 --> 02:37:49,240
Speaker 6: maybe we should just like try to ignore it because

2999
02:37:49,240 --> 02:37:52,040
Speaker 6: it's uncomfortable or it might like hurt the cause. And

3000
02:37:52,280 --> 02:37:56,000
Speaker 6: I think that's just absolutely reversed. And I think, like

3001
02:37:56,000 --> 02:37:58,800
Speaker 6: you said, like making making inroads with like anti fascist

3002
02:37:58,800 --> 02:38:01,600
Speaker 6: researchers to help, like I to fy you know, when

3003
02:38:01,640 --> 02:38:04,440
Speaker 6: these things are happening, who bad actors might be, you know,

3004
02:38:04,480 --> 02:38:07,840
Speaker 6: people that might try to trojan horse certain issues to

3005
02:38:08,280 --> 02:38:11,400
Speaker 6: kind of alter a popular movement. Is all great ways

3006
02:38:11,400 --> 02:38:13,640
Speaker 6: to start, Ben, Did you have any other other kind

3007
02:38:13,640 --> 02:38:16,600
Speaker 6: of thoughts on how to handle this like unique political moment.

3008
02:38:17,360 --> 02:38:21,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, no, I mean I've been around Palestine solidarity movements

3009
02:38:21,680 --> 02:38:24,000
Speaker 13: for like, you know, over a decade. I remember, like

3010
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:26,600
Speaker 13: a decade ago, I was in a rally and you know,

3011
02:38:26,680 --> 02:38:30,720
Speaker 13: most of the signage there was like really inspiring and awesome,

3012
02:38:30,920 --> 02:38:34,720
Speaker 13: but at one point I saw like a sign that

3013
02:38:34,920 --> 02:38:38,360
Speaker 13: showed like kind of like a hook nose Israeli soldier

3014
02:38:38,680 --> 02:38:42,720
Speaker 13: who was like feasting on children's blood. And it was like, Okay,

3015
02:38:43,240 --> 02:38:47,400
Speaker 13: this is definitely like there's an anti Semitism here. And

3016
02:38:47,440 --> 02:38:49,440
Speaker 13: I actually like went up and like talked to the

3017
02:38:49,440 --> 02:38:51,560
Speaker 13: person and they were like really nice, and you know,

3018
02:38:51,600 --> 02:38:54,680
Speaker 13: I explained to them, like, you know, there's a thing

3019
02:38:54,720 --> 02:38:57,800
Speaker 13: called the Bible which is an anti Semitic myth that's

3020
02:38:57,920 --> 02:39:01,480
Speaker 13: harm juice for centuries that is like feased on Christian

3021
02:39:01,520 --> 02:39:04,560
Speaker 13: children's blood, and that like it seems like that image

3022
02:39:04,560 --> 02:39:07,840
Speaker 13: of the Israeli soldier is like seems to like have

3023
02:39:07,879 --> 02:39:09,600
Speaker 13: a big nose and that's kind of like a hy

3024
02:39:09,640 --> 02:39:12,720
Speaker 13: stereotype from Europe. And they were like, oh, I didn't

3025
02:39:12,760 --> 02:39:15,160
Speaker 13: really know these things. They took the sign down and

3026
02:39:15,320 --> 02:39:17,680
Speaker 13: left feeling like it was a good conversation, and so

3027
02:39:17,840 --> 02:39:21,280
Speaker 13: like things like that, I think there's some understandable fear,

3028
02:39:21,360 --> 02:39:24,400
Speaker 13: like among Jewish people that you might see signs like

3029
02:39:24,400 --> 02:39:26,760
Speaker 13: this at rallies, and when you do, I think, just

3030
02:39:26,760 --> 02:39:29,720
Speaker 13: like trying to have conversations, it doesn't always go well,

3031
02:39:29,879 --> 02:39:32,440
Speaker 13: but often it does. And I just think, like you know,

3032
02:39:32,480 --> 02:39:36,760
Speaker 13: for any marginalized group or form of oppression, the more

3033
02:39:36,920 --> 02:39:39,879
Speaker 13: that people just deep in their understanding of like what

3034
02:39:39,920 --> 02:39:42,840
Speaker 13: anti Semitism is how it shows up what some of

3035
02:39:42,879 --> 02:39:44,200
Speaker 13: these these tropes are.

3036
02:39:44,560 --> 02:39:48,240
Speaker 16: Like. The more that it becomes normalized, the more that it.

3037
02:39:48,200 --> 02:39:51,000
Speaker 13: Will become second nature to people, and people won't be

3038
02:39:51,040 --> 02:39:53,680
Speaker 13: as afraid to talk about it. There won't be this

3039
02:39:53,760 --> 02:39:56,320
Speaker 13: kind of like weird silence around it, and there's some

3040
02:39:56,480 --> 02:40:00,000
Speaker 13: decemitism in that silence. To be clear, like for any

3041
02:40:00,160 --> 02:40:02,240
Speaker 13: kind of oppression. If you thought, oh, if people don't

3042
02:40:02,240 --> 02:40:04,640
Speaker 13: want to talk about like anti black racism in the movement,

3043
02:40:04,720 --> 02:40:07,920
Speaker 13: that's that itself is like is part of anti blackness, right,

3044
02:40:07,959 --> 02:40:09,920
Speaker 13: so we should be clear. And I also think, like

3045
02:40:09,920 --> 02:40:13,320
Speaker 13: you're saying, the fact that so often, like atmusations of

3046
02:40:13,320 --> 02:40:16,440
Speaker 13: anti semitism are weaponized against our movements makes people don't

3047
02:40:16,480 --> 02:40:19,000
Speaker 13: want to talk about it, makes people think, oh, this

3048
02:40:19,080 --> 02:40:21,039
Speaker 13: is just a right wing issue, or if we talk

3049
02:40:21,080 --> 02:40:23,560
Speaker 13: about it, or we're just lending treat ince to the right.

3050
02:40:23,680 --> 02:40:25,800
Speaker 16: But I think that's changing.

3051
02:40:25,560 --> 02:40:28,360
Speaker 13: Especially with the growth of the Jewish left and with

3052
02:40:28,400 --> 02:40:31,200
Speaker 13: an understanding that anti semitism is real and needs to

3053
02:40:31,240 --> 02:40:33,240
Speaker 13: be tackled. And so I think, yeah, the one of

3054
02:40:33,280 --> 02:40:36,280
Speaker 13: the things to keep changing, this conversation will be a

3055
02:40:36,320 --> 02:40:36,920
Speaker 13: lot easier.

3056
02:40:37,080 --> 02:40:39,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, is there any other thing that you would like

3057
02:40:39,280 --> 02:40:41,840
Speaker 6: to mention kind of near the end of this piece,

3058
02:40:42,040 --> 02:40:43,920
Speaker 6: you know, anything on like the Jewish left, any of

3059
02:40:43,920 --> 02:40:46,400
Speaker 6: the other kind of closing thoughts that didn't get brought up.

3060
02:40:46,680 --> 02:40:48,520
Speaker 7: Oh, the only thing was say, we spend a lot

3061
02:40:48,560 --> 02:40:52,039
Speaker 7: of time talking about the stake that non Jewish folks

3062
02:40:52,080 --> 02:40:54,000
Speaker 7: have in this, and I think there's there's a couple

3063
02:40:54,000 --> 02:40:55,840
Speaker 7: of things that are worth considering. Like we've sort of

3064
02:40:55,840 --> 02:40:58,720
Speaker 7: talked about anti semitism. One of the key features of

3065
02:40:58,720 --> 02:41:01,080
Speaker 7: anti semitism is that it's not true, Like it's a

3066
02:41:01,160 --> 02:41:05,440
Speaker 7: bad actual analysis about power, state, empires, and capitalism works.

3067
02:41:05,560 --> 02:41:07,959
Speaker 7: So if that is sort of steeping in, and this

3068
02:41:08,000 --> 02:41:11,279
Speaker 7: is true of conspiracy theories broadly, if that's cp into politics,

3069
02:41:11,360 --> 02:41:14,080
Speaker 7: that's just a failure right there. And so it's really

3070
02:41:14,080 --> 02:41:16,039
Speaker 7: incumbent on people to sort of try and move past

3071
02:41:16,080 --> 02:41:18,120
Speaker 7: that and confront those things, because that's the only way

3072
02:41:18,200 --> 02:41:21,240
Speaker 7: that like social movements can actually gain kind of efficacy.

3073
02:41:21,800 --> 02:41:23,680
Speaker 7: And the other thing is that they're directly tied to

3074
02:41:23,680 --> 02:41:25,600
Speaker 7: other forms of oppression. If you look at like the

3075
02:41:25,760 --> 02:41:28,879
Speaker 7: all out assault on trans healthcare and transtitutions right now,

3076
02:41:29,080 --> 02:41:31,880
Speaker 7: it's overwhelming using anti Semitic conspiracy theories as sort of

3077
02:41:31,920 --> 02:41:34,800
Speaker 7: the scaffolding to hold it together. Absolutely, And this has

3078
02:41:34,800 --> 02:41:37,720
Speaker 7: been historically true about anti blackness in the US and

3079
02:41:37,760 --> 02:41:40,959
Speaker 7: the other forms of oppression, and so these things are intertwined.

3080
02:41:41,000 --> 02:41:42,920
Speaker 7: So I think it's important just to acknowledge that like

3081
02:41:42,959 --> 02:41:45,640
Speaker 7: anti Semitism is not like just a Jewish problem or

3082
02:41:45,680 --> 02:41:48,120
Speaker 7: affect Jewish people. It's really baked into these kind of

3083
02:41:48,120 --> 02:41:51,320
Speaker 7: interlocking systems of oppression. So we should see it as

3084
02:41:51,640 --> 02:41:53,840
Speaker 7: a way of confronting other things as well. And to

3085
02:41:53,920 --> 02:41:56,400
Speaker 7: make that, can I give it value or can value

3086
02:41:56,440 --> 02:41:58,040
Speaker 7: to confront on its own terms?

3087
02:41:58,600 --> 02:42:01,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, And I think this book came out really at

3088
02:42:01,800 --> 02:42:05,320
Speaker 13: a moment when like these conversations are needed more than ever,

3089
02:42:05,480 --> 02:42:08,360
Speaker 13: and also at a moment when the Jewish left is

3090
02:42:08,480 --> 02:42:11,720
Speaker 13: just growing by leaps and bounds, and I think to

3091
02:42:11,840 --> 02:42:14,200
Speaker 13: end on a hopeful note, and that gives me a

3092
02:42:14,240 --> 02:42:16,480
Speaker 13: lot of hope. Along with the growth of the left,

3093
02:42:16,560 --> 02:42:20,240
Speaker 13: you know, more broadly right surging to the streets in

3094
02:42:20,360 --> 02:42:24,279
Speaker 13: support of Palestine, we're seeing like new generations and folks

3095
02:42:24,280 --> 02:42:27,760
Speaker 13: across all generations and Jewish communities who are building new

3096
02:42:27,840 --> 02:42:32,560
Speaker 13: ritual modalities, new modes of Jewish identity, new politics, who

3097
02:42:32,560 --> 02:42:36,360
Speaker 13: are really questioning old ways of doing things and really

3098
02:42:36,400 --> 02:42:41,439
Speaker 13: building a Jewish future beyond nationalism and militarism, and connecting

3099
02:42:41,800 --> 02:42:45,760
Speaker 13: our struggles with all other struggles as they've long been connected,

3100
02:42:45,920 --> 02:42:48,240
Speaker 13: you know, like Jewish left has been around for a

3101
02:42:48,280 --> 02:42:50,879
Speaker 13: long time. And so yeah, we're really living at a

3102
02:42:51,000 --> 02:42:54,160
Speaker 13: historic moment, both around this issue and around all of

3103
02:42:54,160 --> 02:42:55,880
Speaker 13: our movements in general. So that gives me a lot

3104
02:42:55,879 --> 02:42:56,279
Speaker 13: of hope.

3105
02:42:56,480 --> 02:42:58,600
Speaker 6: Thank you both so much for coming on to talk

3106
02:42:58,640 --> 02:43:02,200
Speaker 6: about these not very fun topics. I spent two hours

3107
02:43:02,240 --> 02:43:03,480
Speaker 6: this morning reading through the book.

3108
02:43:03,600 --> 02:43:04,520
Speaker 3: It was very good.

3109
02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:08,520
Speaker 6: I strongly recommend people read it, especially considering everything that's

3110
02:43:08,520 --> 02:43:11,560
Speaker 6: happened like these past eight months. I think there's a

3111
02:43:11,600 --> 02:43:14,440
Speaker 6: lot of very good insights in there. Where can people

3112
02:43:14,760 --> 02:43:17,000
Speaker 6: find a copy of Safety through Solidarity?

3113
02:43:17,160 --> 02:43:18,600
Speaker 7: I think I think you can pick it up anywhere.

3114
02:43:18,840 --> 02:43:20,879
Speaker 7: Appreciate the kind of words. I appreciate you having us

3115
02:43:20,920 --> 02:43:23,920
Speaker 7: on the talk about it. We've been directing folks to

3116
02:43:24,040 --> 02:43:27,040
Speaker 7: sort of like movement bookstores, and we've been partnering with

3117
02:43:27,040 --> 02:43:29,080
Speaker 7: a bunch of them, you know, so I think, like

3118
02:43:29,160 --> 02:43:31,400
Speaker 7: local read bookstores are always a great place. We have

3119
02:43:31,480 --> 02:43:34,040
Speaker 7: to like actively sustain those places and be a part

3120
02:43:34,080 --> 02:43:35,320
Speaker 7: of them. So I think that's a great place to

3121
02:43:35,320 --> 02:43:38,000
Speaker 7: do it, and also kind of requesting them at libraries,

3122
02:43:38,120 --> 02:43:40,080
Speaker 7: sort of like pointing folks to both of those things.

3123
02:43:40,080 --> 02:43:41,400
Speaker 7: So that's a great way to support the book.

3124
02:43:41,760 --> 02:43:44,680
Speaker 16: Great. I really appreciate you having us on Garrison. It's

3125
02:43:44,720 --> 02:43:46,600
Speaker 16: been a great conversation and we appreciate all the work

3126
02:43:46,640 --> 02:43:48,520
Speaker 16: you do so needed to be connective.

3127
02:43:48,680 --> 02:43:49,480
Speaker 3: All right, thanks much.

3128
02:44:02,640 --> 02:44:04,920
Speaker 17: Welcome to Nick Dafa here a podcast of once Again.

3129
02:44:05,000 --> 02:44:07,160
Speaker 17: I have forgotten to write an intro for I'm your

3130
02:44:07,160 --> 02:44:09,679
Speaker 17: host bi along with these chains.

3131
02:44:09,959 --> 02:44:12,440
Speaker 3: I'm here. It's great to be here. Intro on.

3132
02:44:14,280 --> 02:44:17,880
Speaker 17: Yeah, and this interless episode is I think the first

3133
02:44:17,920 --> 02:44:21,680
Speaker 17: episode that well, can I promise this is the first

3134
02:44:21,720 --> 02:44:26,080
Speaker 17: episode that was recorded after we learned that Tim Wallas

3135
02:44:26,160 --> 02:44:29,720
Speaker 17: was going to be the vice presidential nominee, defeating the

3136
02:44:29,800 --> 02:44:32,360
Speaker 17: sexual assault guy and then the other sexual assault guy

3137
02:44:32,360 --> 02:44:33,680
Speaker 17: who probably covered up on murder.

3138
02:44:34,080 --> 02:44:36,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dan slack on it also coming up a murder

3139
02:44:36,240 --> 02:44:36,520
Speaker 3: an me.

3140
02:44:37,959 --> 02:44:40,920
Speaker 17: Yeah. That was a truly impressive, truly impressive sort of

3141
02:44:41,160 --> 02:44:44,600
Speaker 17: set of candidates that party elite were choosing from.

3142
02:44:44,879 --> 02:44:49,400
Speaker 3: It's still somewhat surprising that they didn't like Fumble. I

3143
02:44:49,400 --> 02:44:51,560
Speaker 3: mean to they will still fumble. We have months to go,

3144
02:44:51,720 --> 02:44:53,000
Speaker 3: But that's true.

3145
02:44:54,120 --> 02:44:57,080
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean, to be fair, I think, oh god,

3146
02:44:57,120 --> 02:45:00,120
Speaker 17: we figured out this guy covered up a murder. That's

3147
02:45:00,120 --> 02:45:02,560
Speaker 17: probably the kind of thing that like even the Dems

3148
02:45:02,720 --> 02:45:07,360
Speaker 17: like dog shit opposition research people were like, hmm, okay,

3149
02:45:07,440 --> 02:45:08,720
Speaker 17: we shouldn't run that guy.

3150
02:45:08,879 --> 02:45:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that tweeting about his murder cover up.

3151
02:45:11,480 --> 02:45:12,480
Speaker 3: Let's leave this one.

3152
02:45:13,000 --> 02:45:15,600
Speaker 17: Yeah, that's Shapiro out of Pennsylvania, who's one of the

3153
02:45:15,640 --> 02:45:16,680
Speaker 17: other candidates by the way.

3154
02:45:16,720 --> 02:45:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, sucks shit.

3155
02:45:18,400 --> 02:45:20,320
Speaker 17: But you know, so the guy we ended up with

3156
02:45:20,360 --> 02:45:23,440
Speaker 17: a sort of folksy Midwestern actually I think it was

3157
02:45:23,480 --> 02:45:27,640
Speaker 17: just a defensive coordinator or whatever, the defensive coach for

3158
02:45:27,800 --> 02:45:30,040
Speaker 17: his football team. He's a very sort of folksy guy.

3159
02:45:30,440 --> 02:45:33,600
Speaker 17: We're going to get more into him next week. But

3160
02:45:34,240 --> 02:45:36,200
Speaker 17: the thing that I wanted to sort of start our

3161
02:45:36,240 --> 02:45:40,200
Speaker 17: discussion about the vice presidential candidates with is attempting to

3162
02:45:40,240 --> 02:45:43,640
Speaker 17: reconcile something that I've seen a lot of discussion about

3163
02:45:43,879 --> 02:45:46,120
Speaker 17: and sort of I don't know, kind of confusion to

3164
02:45:46,120 --> 02:45:49,840
Speaker 17: some extent about about how do you actually make sense

3165
02:45:50,040 --> 02:45:53,119
Speaker 17: of the sort of two halves of Tim Walls's record,

3166
02:45:53,200 --> 02:45:54,920
Speaker 17: right which, on the one hand, he's signing a bunch

3167
02:45:54,920 --> 02:45:59,240
Speaker 17: of extremely progressive, sort of welfared legislation while being the

3168
02:45:59,280 --> 02:46:03,119
Speaker 17: governor of Minnesota, including things like universal free school lunch.

3169
02:46:04,000 --> 02:46:05,359
Speaker 17: I said it was lunch of breakfast.

3170
02:46:05,360 --> 02:46:05,880
Speaker 3: I don't remember.

3171
02:46:06,640 --> 02:46:08,880
Speaker 17: It was both, it was both, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

3172
02:46:08,920 --> 02:46:10,160
Speaker 17: you know, the on the one hand, you have this

3173
02:46:10,200 --> 02:46:12,680
Speaker 17: sort of sparkling record, and then on the other hand,

3174
02:46:12,879 --> 02:46:15,360
Speaker 17: you have you know, him hauling in the National Guard

3175
02:46:15,360 --> 02:46:18,240
Speaker 17: and deploying it to suppress the uprising in twenty twenty, which,

3176
02:46:18,480 --> 02:46:21,760
Speaker 17: lest we forget started in Minnesota. Yeah, that's where the

3177
02:46:21,760 --> 02:46:25,560
Speaker 17: Third Precinct burned, and also using the police to sort

3178
02:46:25,560 --> 02:46:29,040
Speaker 17: of like horribly brutalize protesters against Line three, which is

3179
02:46:29,080 --> 02:46:31,360
Speaker 17: an oil pipeline through a bunch of indigenous land that

3180
02:46:32,160 --> 02:46:34,920
Speaker 17: probably I don't know, we're probably two years out from

3181
02:46:34,920 --> 02:46:37,280
Speaker 17: like an unbelievably horrific oil spill coming out of it

3182
02:46:37,320 --> 02:46:39,440
Speaker 17: that everyone's gonna go, how can we possibly have predicted this?

3183
02:46:39,480 --> 02:46:42,520
Speaker 17: It only had spilled a million times before, et cetera,

3184
02:46:42,520 --> 02:46:46,680
Speaker 17: et cetera, and that walls like rammed through and had

3185
02:46:46,720 --> 02:46:49,720
Speaker 17: the people who were resisting it like horribly beaten by

3186
02:46:49,800 --> 02:46:53,039
Speaker 17: a cop. So how do you sort of reconcile these

3187
02:46:53,080 --> 02:46:58,360
Speaker 17: two halves of this guy's record. And there's like a

3188
02:46:58,400 --> 02:47:01,520
Speaker 17: local politics explanation which I see bandied about a lot,

3189
02:47:01,560 --> 02:47:04,160
Speaker 17: which is true to some extent, and that explanation is

3190
02:47:04,160 --> 02:47:07,480
Speaker 17: that he's not really a progressive and he's mostly kind

3191
02:47:07,480 --> 02:47:09,280
Speaker 17: of a moderate who she's going along with a pro

3192
02:47:09,320 --> 02:47:12,560
Speaker 17: fairly progressive Minnesota legislature and is getting credit for just

3193
02:47:12,640 --> 02:47:17,440
Speaker 17: like signing bills. And that's kind of true, but it's

3194
02:47:17,480 --> 02:47:21,400
Speaker 17: also I think ultimately a cop out, because we are

3195
02:47:21,440 --> 02:47:25,080
Speaker 17: on year about one hundred and forty of the welfare

3196
02:47:25,120 --> 02:47:30,560
Speaker 17: state and this shit keeps happening every single time. And

3197
02:47:30,640 --> 02:47:33,400
Speaker 17: what's really sort of at stake here analytically is that

3198
02:47:33,440 --> 02:47:36,679
Speaker 17: the relationship between the welfare state and violence is significantly

3199
02:47:36,760 --> 02:47:42,000
Speaker 17: deeper than the record of one guy. And so today

3200
02:47:42,000 --> 02:47:44,080
Speaker 17: what we're going to be doing is not really talking

3201
02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:45,720
Speaker 17: about Tim Walls so much. What we're going to be

3202
02:47:45,720 --> 02:47:47,800
Speaker 17: doing is we're going to be going back through some

3203
02:47:47,879 --> 02:47:51,120
Speaker 17: of the history of social democracy and trying to understand

3204
02:47:51,200 --> 02:47:53,600
Speaker 17: how it became entangled with the sort of use of

3205
02:47:53,680 --> 02:47:56,400
Speaker 17: force with police violence, because I think there's a story

3206
02:47:56,440 --> 02:47:58,720
Speaker 17: there that's been completely buried by the tidal wave of

3207
02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:05,480
Speaker 17: just like I don't know whatever walls takes. And you know,

3208
02:48:05,520 --> 02:48:07,760
Speaker 17: I think presidential elections are something that has a tendency

3209
02:48:07,800 --> 02:48:10,640
Speaker 17: to just destroy everyone's analytical capacity for like two years.

3210
02:48:11,040 --> 02:48:15,560
Speaker 17: So yes, let's resist that and go do something interesting. Yeah, okay, Yeah,

3211
02:48:15,600 --> 02:48:18,240
Speaker 17: So I think the place to start with this is

3212
02:48:18,320 --> 02:48:20,680
Speaker 17: this is a place that we start I think not

3213
02:48:20,840 --> 02:48:23,000
Speaker 17: infrequent amount on this show, or at least I do.

3214
02:48:23,720 --> 02:48:27,440
Speaker 17: And that's the sort of original debates from you know,

3215
02:48:27,480 --> 02:48:31,880
Speaker 17: about the eighteen thirties through roughly the eighteen seventies early

3216
02:48:31,920 --> 02:48:35,200
Speaker 17: eighteen eighties, when it changes about what socialism was going

3217
02:48:35,280 --> 02:48:38,680
Speaker 17: to be. There's always been to some extent, like a

3218
02:48:38,680 --> 02:48:42,360
Speaker 17: bunch of different kind of understandings of it. But something

3219
02:48:42,440 --> 02:48:44,520
Speaker 17: that you know, what you'd call the sort of left

3220
02:48:44,560 --> 02:48:47,560
Speaker 17: wing of the Democrats, which is like everyone at that point, right,

3221
02:48:47,560 --> 02:48:49,800
Speaker 17: and the anarchists kind of agree about. And something that

3222
02:48:49,840 --> 02:48:52,280
Speaker 17: Mars agrees about with sort of the anarchists at the

3223
02:48:52,280 --> 02:48:55,280
Speaker 17: time is that socialism is you know, it's the free

3224
02:48:55,320 --> 02:48:58,760
Speaker 17: association of producers, right, you know, it is the working

3225
02:48:58,760 --> 02:49:02,000
Speaker 17: class abolishing itself, but then also like being the people

3226
02:49:02,000 --> 02:49:04,600
Speaker 17: who directly run the new society that's sort of brought

3227
02:49:04,600 --> 02:49:06,280
Speaker 17: about by this thing without sort of the stage or

3228
02:49:06,360 --> 02:49:07,640
Speaker 17: sort of political mediation.

3229
02:49:07,360 --> 02:49:08,120
Speaker 3: Et cetera, et cetera.

3230
02:49:08,879 --> 02:49:11,480
Speaker 17: And even you know people like Angles who are like

3231
02:49:11,640 --> 02:49:15,160
Speaker 17: ore statists, right, like Angles, you know, uses the theoretical

3232
02:49:15,240 --> 02:49:18,440
Speaker 17: justification for like every time a socialist picks up a

3233
02:49:18,440 --> 02:49:21,080
Speaker 17: machine gun to shoot someone and that works for the state,

3234
02:49:21,160 --> 02:49:23,680
Speaker 17: Like that's Angles justification for it. But even he's talking

3235
02:49:23,720 --> 02:49:26,360
Speaker 17: about how like one day the state will be like

3236
02:49:26,400 --> 02:49:28,360
Speaker 17: put on a shelf in a museum and people will

3237
02:49:28,360 --> 02:49:30,320
Speaker 17: walk past to look at it and then like walk

3238
02:49:30,640 --> 02:49:32,160
Speaker 17: by it because it's like it's a tool of a

3239
02:49:32,160 --> 02:49:36,080
Speaker 17: Bibegone era that nobody needs anymore. And in this period,

3240
02:49:36,120 --> 02:49:41,320
Speaker 17: it's very clear that socialism is we're just directly controlling

3241
02:49:41,320 --> 02:49:44,520
Speaker 17: the musa production and it's directly democratically managing their lives.

3242
02:49:45,640 --> 02:49:49,600
Speaker 17: But this becomes less clear as the eighteen hundreds go on.

3243
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:52,520
Speaker 17: Something that David Grayer points out, and I think I've

3244
02:49:52,560 --> 02:49:55,039
Speaker 17: quoted this on the show before, but it's important here.

3245
02:49:55,600 --> 02:49:58,000
Speaker 17: While this is sort of going on, right, there's two

3246
02:49:58,080 --> 02:50:00,640
Speaker 17: kind of trends in the development of the state and

3247
02:50:00,680 --> 02:50:04,320
Speaker 17: the development of sort of socialist ideology. One is a

3248
02:50:04,400 --> 02:50:08,200
Speaker 17: move in the eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties, socialists start

3249
02:50:08,240 --> 02:50:12,560
Speaker 17: watching states build railroads and this drives them completely nuts.

3250
02:50:12,879 --> 02:50:15,320
Speaker 17: It just obliterates their brains. It's like this and the

3251
02:50:15,360 --> 02:50:19,360
Speaker 17: post office just like absolutely nuke their brains, and they

3252
02:50:19,400 --> 02:50:22,039
Speaker 17: start going, Okay, hold on, but what if instead of

3253
02:50:22,080 --> 02:50:25,199
Speaker 17: workers directly managing their affairs and having you know, workers

3254
02:50:25,200 --> 02:50:29,640
Speaker 17: coordinating like the production of society, what if instead the

3255
02:50:29,720 --> 02:50:32,720
Speaker 17: state did that? And socialism was literally when the state

3256
02:50:32,800 --> 02:50:35,280
Speaker 17: did things. And this is something that like even Angles

3257
02:50:35,360 --> 02:50:37,120
Speaker 17: is like pretty hostile to in the sense that like

3258
02:50:37,160 --> 02:50:39,280
Speaker 17: he's a status to some extent, but he also is

3259
02:50:39,440 --> 02:50:42,800
Speaker 17: very wary of doing things like calling state onwn enterprises socialism,

3260
02:50:42,920 --> 02:50:45,360
Speaker 17: right because like, well, no, obviously that's not necessarily true,

3261
02:50:46,000 --> 02:50:49,359
Speaker 17: because like you could just have capitalists state owned enterprises

3262
02:50:49,480 --> 02:50:51,840
Speaker 17: like lots of places US and includingly importantly sort of

3263
02:50:51,879 --> 02:50:54,000
Speaker 17: Bismarck's Germany in this period, which we will come back

3264
02:50:54,000 --> 02:50:54,640
Speaker 17: to in a second.

3265
02:50:55,520 --> 02:50:57,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and lots of the places that people on Twitter

3266
02:50:57,800 --> 02:51:00,240
Speaker 3: to think are socialist paradise is today.

3267
02:51:00,120 --> 02:51:02,800
Speaker 17: Yeah, are just these sooe like state on enterprise hell holes.

3268
02:51:02,840 --> 02:51:06,200
Speaker 17: We've I talked about this extensively with China elsewhere, and

3269
02:51:06,520 --> 02:51:10,160
Speaker 17: this sort of like shifts the conception of what people

3270
02:51:10,200 --> 02:51:12,280
Speaker 17: think socialism is, and you get these more sort of

3271
02:51:12,280 --> 02:51:15,279
Speaker 17: reformist trends in sort of socialist circles.

3272
02:51:15,320 --> 02:51:15,959
Speaker 3: You get your.

3273
02:51:15,920 --> 02:51:18,840
Speaker 17: Cot Skis, your burn Steams, people who think that, like,

3274
02:51:18,840 --> 02:51:20,480
Speaker 17: you don't need a revolution. You can sort of just

3275
02:51:20,520 --> 02:51:23,039
Speaker 17: like you can vote your way into the state owning

3276
02:51:23,080 --> 02:51:26,480
Speaker 17: property and that will somehow achieve socialism, or you can

3277
02:51:26,520 --> 02:51:29,920
Speaker 17: sort of like stabilize capitalism and make it not bad anymore.

3278
02:51:31,080 --> 02:51:33,400
Speaker 17: Now that's what's happening on the socialist side. So there's

3279
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:37,880
Speaker 17: this sort of project of like autonomous workers control over everything.

3280
02:51:38,080 --> 02:51:40,560
Speaker 17: Right that that had been the original socialist project is

3281
02:51:40,560 --> 02:51:43,520
Speaker 17: being eaten away on one hand from its own parties.

3282
02:51:44,000 --> 02:51:45,760
Speaker 17: But then on the other hand, as sort of David

3283
02:51:45,840 --> 02:51:49,480
Speaker 17: Error points out, the capitalist class realizes that all of

3284
02:51:49,520 --> 02:51:52,440
Speaker 17: these sort of autonomous institutions that the working class is building,

3285
02:51:53,000 --> 02:51:55,320
Speaker 17: like your unions and your giant political parties have their

3286
02:51:55,360 --> 02:51:58,320
Speaker 17: own sort of welfare system. The state realizes that you

3287
02:51:58,360 --> 02:52:00,920
Speaker 17: can replicate these and use it like a direct buy

3288
02:52:00,959 --> 02:52:03,760
Speaker 17: off to stop these people from revolting. I'm going to

3289
02:52:03,800 --> 02:52:06,200
Speaker 17: read a passage from David Graver's The Utopia of Rules

3290
02:52:07,080 --> 02:52:11,040
Speaker 17: outovon Bismarck's reaction to Socialist electoral success in eighteen seventy

3291
02:52:11,040 --> 02:52:14,440
Speaker 17: eight was twofold on the one hand, banned the Socialist Party,

3292
02:52:14,520 --> 02:52:18,440
Speaker 17: trade unions, and leftist newspapers on the other, while when

3293
02:52:18,440 --> 02:52:21,560
Speaker 17: this proved ineffective, socialist candidates continued to run and win

3294
02:52:21,600 --> 02:52:25,360
Speaker 17: as independents to create a top down alternative to the

3295
02:52:25,360 --> 02:52:30,120
Speaker 17: free schools, workers associations, friendly societies, libraries, theaters, and the

3296
02:52:30,200 --> 02:52:33,840
Speaker 17: large process of building socialism from below. This took the

3297
02:52:33,879 --> 02:52:37,640
Speaker 17: form of a program of social insurance for unemployment, health

3298
02:52:37,680 --> 02:52:38,520
Speaker 17: and disability, etc.

3299
02:52:38,680 --> 02:52:38,840
Speaker 3: Etc.

3300
02:52:39,200 --> 02:52:42,920
Speaker 17: Free education, pensions, and so forth. Much of it watered

3301
02:52:42,920 --> 02:52:44,840
Speaker 17: down versions of policies that have been part of the

3302
02:52:44,840 --> 02:52:48,800
Speaker 17: socialist platform, but in every case carefully purged of any

3303
02:52:48,800 --> 02:52:52,880
Speaker 17: democratic participatory elements. In private, at least, he was utterly

3304
02:52:52,920 --> 02:52:55,480
Speaker 17: candid about describing these efforts to buy out working class

3305
02:52:55,480 --> 02:52:59,199
Speaker 17: loyalties day as conservative nationalist project. When leff Ring regimes

3306
02:52:59,240 --> 02:53:02,240
Speaker 17: later did take path, the template had already been established,

3307
02:53:02,280 --> 02:53:04,959
Speaker 17: and almost invariably they took the same top down approach,

3308
02:53:05,040 --> 02:53:10,279
Speaker 17: incorporating locally organized clinics, libraries, mutual banking initiatives, workers education

3309
02:53:10,400 --> 02:53:13,360
Speaker 17: centers and the like into the administrative structure of the state.

3310
02:53:15,520 --> 02:53:16,520
Speaker 3: So there's two.

3311
02:53:16,360 --> 02:53:21,840
Speaker 17: Interesting things here. One is that the developments of the

3312
02:53:21,840 --> 02:53:23,480
Speaker 17: things that are going to become the body welfare state,

3313
02:53:24,240 --> 02:53:27,360
Speaker 17: this is implemented not by you know, all these sort

3314
02:53:27,360 --> 02:53:29,720
Speaker 17: of policies that we're talking about walls doing. Now, these

3315
02:53:29,720 --> 02:53:33,119
Speaker 17: were originally implemented not by the left, but very deliberately

3316
02:53:33,280 --> 02:53:35,880
Speaker 17: by Auto von Bismarck, like the arch late nineteen eirly

3317
02:53:35,879 --> 02:53:39,240
Speaker 17: twenty century conservative, the guy who is literally responsible for

3318
02:53:39,280 --> 02:53:42,680
Speaker 17: the foundation of Germany, right, Like, that's that's his project.

3319
02:53:42,680 --> 02:53:44,520
Speaker 17: He is the guy who creates the nation of Germany

3320
02:53:44,680 --> 02:53:46,600
Speaker 17: and thus will forever live in infamy. Is one of

3321
02:53:46,640 --> 02:53:49,680
Speaker 17: the most evil people in human history. The line directly

3322
02:53:49,680 --> 02:53:53,279
Speaker 17: from him to Hitler is incredibly straight. But the second

3323
02:53:53,280 --> 02:53:57,039
Speaker 17: part of this is what social democratic politics turns into, right,

3324
02:53:57,080 --> 02:54:01,840
Speaker 17: which is this effort to sort of central all of

3325
02:54:01,879 --> 02:54:05,400
Speaker 17: the sort of autonomous institutions that the working classic constructed

3326
02:54:05,400 --> 02:54:08,200
Speaker 17: and to centralize all of that activity into the state.

3327
02:54:08,600 --> 02:54:08,800
Speaker 12: Right.

3328
02:54:10,240 --> 02:54:11,840
Speaker 17: You know, this is like having your sort of clinics

3329
02:54:11,879 --> 02:54:13,720
Speaker 17: be state run, having your libraries be state run, having

3330
02:54:13,760 --> 02:54:16,240
Speaker 17: your like mutual banking things, like all of these things

3331
02:54:16,480 --> 02:54:20,080
Speaker 17: that had that had been independent institutions are folded into

3332
02:54:20,080 --> 02:54:23,360
Speaker 17: the state project by folding these things into the state.

3333
02:54:23,440 --> 02:54:26,359
Speaker 17: Graper's interested in the extent to which they become deuaucratized

3334
02:54:26,360 --> 02:54:29,760
Speaker 17: and the cerb democratic elements fanish entirely. I am less

3335
02:54:29,760 --> 02:54:31,400
Speaker 17: interested in that here, and I am more interested in

3336
02:54:31,440 --> 02:54:33,320
Speaker 17: the extent to which it ties all of these things

3337
02:54:33,360 --> 02:54:37,000
Speaker 17: to state violence. Now, James, do you know what else

3338
02:54:37,080 --> 02:54:38,440
Speaker 17: is tied to state violence?

3339
02:54:39,280 --> 02:54:41,720
Speaker 3: That was a master stroke.

3340
02:54:41,879 --> 02:54:41,959
Speaker 7: Me.

3341
02:54:42,800 --> 02:54:44,920
Speaker 3: Mac did not have that one written down. Came up

3342
02:54:44,959 --> 02:54:49,039
Speaker 3: on the cuff. Absolutely fantastic. Please tell me mea what

3343
02:54:49,120 --> 02:54:49,879
Speaker 3: is connected to day?

3344
02:54:50,160 --> 02:54:52,760
Speaker 17: It is the products and services that support this podcast.

3345
02:54:59,680 --> 02:55:01,440
Speaker 3: We are back.

3346
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:04,280
Speaker 17: So we've gotten into sort of how these things that

3347
02:55:04,400 --> 02:55:06,959
Speaker 17: used to be mutual aid, right, these are these sort

3348
02:55:06,959 --> 02:55:10,480
Speaker 17: of programs that were developed by working class institutions to

3349
02:55:10,480 --> 02:55:12,959
Speaker 17: support each other, where we're sort of folded into the state.

3350
02:55:13,600 --> 02:55:15,480
Speaker 17: And now we have to get into the reverse of

3351
02:55:15,520 --> 02:55:17,880
Speaker 17: this process, which is how violence was folded into social

3352
02:55:17,879 --> 02:55:20,560
Speaker 17: democracy in the eighteen hundreds. And this is something I

3353
02:55:20,600 --> 02:55:24,840
Speaker 17: think is kind of well known among the extremely nerd left,

3354
02:55:24,879 --> 02:55:27,120
Speaker 17: but I don't know if it's very well known outside

3355
02:55:27,160 --> 02:55:30,840
Speaker 17: of that. But in the late eighteen hundreds and early

3356
02:55:30,920 --> 02:55:35,160
Speaker 17: nineteen hundreds, everyone who is like a Marxist in any

3357
02:55:35,240 --> 02:55:37,880
Speaker 17: stripe is a social democrat. And this is true equally

3358
02:55:38,040 --> 02:55:41,680
Speaker 17: of reformists like Burnstein and also people like Lenin right,

3359
02:55:41,720 --> 02:55:44,760
Speaker 17: like the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, both are splits from

3360
02:55:44,800 --> 02:55:47,080
Speaker 17: like the social Democratic Labor Party is it social Labor

3361
02:55:47,080 --> 02:55:49,000
Speaker 17: Party was I forget the actual name of the Party

3362
02:55:49,000 --> 02:55:50,800
Speaker 17: of the Swim, but it was a social democratic party

3363
02:55:50,800 --> 02:55:51,480
Speaker 17: of like Russia.

3364
02:55:51,640 --> 02:55:51,800
Speaker 3: Right.

3365
02:55:52,800 --> 02:55:54,440
Speaker 17: This is the thing, like all of the communists and

3366
02:55:54,440 --> 02:55:57,600
Speaker 17: all the socialists like split from these sort of social

3367
02:55:57,600 --> 02:56:00,680
Speaker 17: democracy things, which means that inherently, and this is something

3368
02:56:00,720 --> 02:56:02,760
Speaker 17: that you can see reflected in the ways that they

3369
02:56:02,760 --> 02:56:04,320
Speaker 17: come to power and in the ways that they sort

3370
02:56:04,360 --> 02:56:08,240
Speaker 17: of govern. Len it is communism and social democracy are

3371
02:56:08,280 --> 02:56:11,520
Speaker 17: both just two variants of the same thing. And you

3372
02:56:11,560 --> 02:56:13,680
Speaker 17: can see this most clearly ether ways they come to power,

3373
02:56:13,680 --> 02:56:18,280
Speaker 17: the way they embark on this project of centralizing power, violence, production,

3374
02:56:18,520 --> 02:56:22,240
Speaker 17: and the organization of society into the state. Both of

3375
02:56:22,280 --> 02:56:24,600
Speaker 17: them take power by machine gunning their enemies, and the

3376
02:56:24,680 --> 02:56:27,200
Speaker 17: left with the newfound power of the state. Alongside this

3377
02:56:27,200 --> 02:56:30,200
Speaker 17: sort of Russian revolution, there is the German Revolution. And

3378
02:56:30,440 --> 02:56:34,000
Speaker 17: the German Revolution is defeated when the Social Democratic Party

3379
02:56:34,000 --> 02:56:36,440
Speaker 17: of Germany, which had been the Party of angles right

3380
02:56:36,600 --> 02:56:39,680
Speaker 17: like Marx like write stuff about their platform like this

3381
02:56:39,760 --> 02:56:43,360
Speaker 17: is the premier social democratic party in the world. They

3382
02:56:43,400 --> 02:56:47,840
Speaker 17: take power by stopping the revolution, slaughtering the communists and

3383
02:56:47,959 --> 02:56:51,040
Speaker 17: using the sort of proto fascist Freikorps to just kill

3384
02:56:51,080 --> 02:56:54,120
Speaker 17: them all. This is how Rose Luxembourg is killed. So

3385
02:56:54,360 --> 02:56:56,640
Speaker 17: the first social democratic government to come to power in

3386
02:56:56,680 --> 02:57:00,480
Speaker 17: Europe since I guess technically there was about two months

3387
02:57:00,520 --> 02:57:04,440
Speaker 17: in eighteen forty eight when there were also Democrats in France,

3388
02:57:04,800 --> 02:57:09,120
Speaker 17: but that lasted very very brief amount of time, you know,

3389
02:57:09,280 --> 02:57:10,800
Speaker 17: So the first time they come to power is in Germany.

3390
02:57:10,840 --> 02:57:12,760
Speaker 17: And in Germany they come to power in this blood

3391
02:57:12,760 --> 02:57:16,560
Speaker 17: bath that you know, sort of destroys like the rest

3392
02:57:16,600 --> 02:57:19,480
Speaker 17: of this like armed left and attempting to centralize politics

3393
02:57:19,520 --> 02:57:21,640
Speaker 17: and military power in the hands of the state. This

3394
02:57:21,640 --> 02:57:25,640
Speaker 17: is how they defeat the revolutionary movements. In Russia. Basically

3395
02:57:25,720 --> 02:57:28,240
Speaker 17: the same process happens. Right, There's the first revolution, which

3396
02:57:28,280 --> 02:57:31,440
Speaker 17: is the February Revolution nine seventeen, and then the Bolsheviks

3397
02:57:31,480 --> 02:57:33,840
Speaker 17: take power in the Second Revolution, and the moment the

3398
02:57:33,840 --> 02:57:37,480
Speaker 17: Bolsheviks take power, they spend basically the entire rest of

3399
02:57:37,520 --> 02:57:40,360
Speaker 17: the Russian Revolution in the Russian Civil War just straight

3400
02:57:40,400 --> 02:57:43,160
Speaker 17: up slaughtering every single other left wing faction in the

3401
02:57:43,280 --> 02:57:46,120
Speaker 17: entirety of Russia, which ends in sort of the massacre

3402
02:57:46,360 --> 02:57:48,400
Speaker 17: beyond Oh yeah, oh yeah, they tell a lot of

3403
02:57:48,440 --> 02:57:51,640
Speaker 17: Ukrainian leftist they are killing anarchists from like azuer Baijan

3404
02:57:52,240 --> 02:57:56,640
Speaker 17: to like fucking Spain, like a prominent appearance.

3405
02:57:56,280 --> 02:57:59,320
Speaker 3: In Spain kidding anarchist in May nineteen thirty seven. Yeah.

3406
02:57:59,360 --> 02:58:01,840
Speaker 17: In the sort of Russian context, right, this is solidified

3407
02:58:01,840 --> 02:58:04,720
Speaker 17: by the massacre at Kronstat where the Bolsheviks sealed there

3408
02:58:04,720 --> 02:58:08,560
Speaker 17: sort of opposition to any kind of like autonomous working class. Right,

3409
02:58:09,640 --> 02:58:11,760
Speaker 17: for the Bolsheviks, the working class is going to be

3410
02:58:12,080 --> 02:58:16,720
Speaker 17: directly subordinated to the Bolshevik Party and to that platform,

3411
02:58:16,720 --> 02:58:19,160
Speaker 17: and any dvash or any attempt to sort of like

3412
02:58:19,400 --> 02:58:22,800
Speaker 17: manage yourself like autonomously is just going to be stamped out, right,

3413
02:58:22,840 --> 02:58:24,600
Speaker 17: And Lenin's attempt to do this is going to be

3414
02:58:24,600 --> 02:58:28,080
Speaker 17: sort of like followed by Stalin doing this even more.

3415
02:58:28,800 --> 02:58:29,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3416
02:58:29,480 --> 02:58:33,199
Speaker 17: And so what you have here, right, what collective ownership

3417
02:58:33,360 --> 02:58:36,160
Speaker 17: is in social democracy, and this is true of both

3418
02:58:36,720 --> 02:58:38,560
Speaker 17: the German social Democrats, who are what we think of

3419
02:58:38,560 --> 02:58:41,560
Speaker 17: social democrats today, right, they're sort of like electoralists, they're

3420
02:58:41,600 --> 02:58:46,800
Speaker 17: like capitalists, and also the Bolsheviks. What collective ownership is

3421
02:58:46,800 --> 02:58:49,400
Speaker 17: is the state owns things and if you try to

3422
02:58:49,400 --> 02:58:51,800
Speaker 17: do anything about this, they shoot you. So this is

3423
02:58:51,800 --> 02:58:53,800
Speaker 17: sort of the origin of like these two forms of

3424
02:58:53,800 --> 02:58:58,360
Speaker 17: social democracy. There's also sort of more liberal forms of this, right,

3425
02:58:58,440 --> 02:59:02,520
Speaker 17: like FDR does not conceive of himself as a social democrat,

3426
02:59:02,600 --> 02:59:04,879
Speaker 17: like he thinks of himself as a liberal when the

3427
02:59:04,879 --> 02:59:08,600
Speaker 17: emergan liberal tradition is a bizarre one. But you know,

3428
02:59:08,640 --> 02:59:12,280
Speaker 17: we actually talked about this in my episode about the

3429
02:59:12,320 --> 02:59:15,960
Speaker 17: time that Wizards of the Coast, the creators of magic,

3430
02:59:16,000 --> 02:59:20,360
Speaker 17: the Gatherery deployed the Pikerton's against the guy for revealing

3431
02:59:20,400 --> 02:59:20,879
Speaker 17: what was in.

3432
02:59:20,840 --> 02:59:26,959
Speaker 3: A magic product to her. Amazing. I think it also

3433
02:59:27,120 --> 02:59:29,320
Speaker 3: has some route I think in like this kind of

3434
02:59:29,440 --> 02:59:31,680
Speaker 3: I mean the examples I'm most familiar with the British

3435
02:59:31,800 --> 02:59:35,720
Speaker 3: like post eighteen thirty two Reform Act, right, like of

3436
02:59:35,760 --> 02:59:40,280
Speaker 3: like this paternal state benevolence. Right, they all line the

3437
02:59:40,320 --> 02:59:43,560
Speaker 3: same thing, right, which is state trying to buy off

3438
02:59:43,640 --> 02:59:46,600
Speaker 3: co opt resistance and doing so in a way that

3439
02:59:46,680 --> 02:59:48,720
Speaker 3: like it's karrot and stick.

3440
02:59:48,800 --> 02:59:51,640
Speaker 17: I guess Yeah, there's elements of this in Leninism too, right,

3441
02:59:51,680 --> 02:59:55,040
Speaker 17: Like Lenin's like great theoretical contribution to whatever is when

3442
02:59:55,120 --> 02:59:57,520
Speaker 17: Lenin talks about like trade union consciousness, people bring this

3443
02:59:57,600 --> 02:59:59,320
Speaker 17: up a lot because like, yeah, like there is obviously

3444
02:59:59,360 --> 03:00:02,120
Speaker 17: issues which is like all of your organizing being you

3445
03:00:02,160 --> 03:00:04,400
Speaker 17: make a trade union, and then your trade union becomes

3446
03:00:04,440 --> 03:00:06,480
Speaker 17: the afl CIO and tries to actually not he tries

3447
03:00:06,520 --> 03:00:11,520
Speaker 17: to successfully overthrows Allende and installs Pinochet, right, like there's

3448
03:00:11,520 --> 03:00:13,640
Speaker 17: a thing there. But when Lenin is talking about trade

3449
03:00:13,680 --> 03:00:17,160
Speaker 17: union consciousness, the thing that Lenin believes is that they

3450
03:00:17,280 --> 03:00:21,640
Speaker 17: need like middle class petite bourgeois like fucking theorists to

3451
03:00:21,680 --> 03:00:24,800
Speaker 17: come in and teach them what socialism is. And this

3452
03:00:24,879 --> 03:00:26,640
Speaker 17: is an explicit part of their theory, right, And this

3453
03:00:26,680 --> 03:00:28,240
Speaker 17: is the same sort of paternalisms that they have to

3454
03:00:28,240 --> 03:00:30,440
Speaker 17: be like led, even the sort of vanguard working class

3455
03:00:30,480 --> 03:00:33,680
Speaker 17: needs to be led by these like theorists who I

3456
03:00:33,720 --> 03:00:37,279
Speaker 17: don't know, emerge from like Lenin's friend group in exile

3457
03:00:37,520 --> 03:00:45,280
Speaker 17: in Switzerland or whatever. And FDR's sort of policy works

3458
03:00:45,200 --> 03:00:49,400
Speaker 17: as I think, it's not really understood how similar FDR's

3459
03:00:49,480 --> 03:00:53,240
Speaker 17: stuff is to like how the New Deal's seen at

3460
03:00:53,240 --> 03:00:55,240
Speaker 17: the time even by people like outside of the country

3461
03:00:55,280 --> 03:00:58,280
Speaker 17: as compared to like the others from massive social up

3462
03:00:58,280 --> 03:01:00,000
Speaker 17: people say he plays supposed to sort of Soviet com

3463
03:01:00,040 --> 03:01:03,440
Speaker 17: munism or even like fascism. Like Nehru, the guy who

3464
03:01:03,440 --> 03:01:07,120
Speaker 17: is going to become like the founding Prime Minister of India,

3465
03:01:07,360 --> 03:01:09,280
Speaker 17: has this whole thing in like nineteen forty one where

3466
03:01:09,280 --> 03:01:10,440
Speaker 17: he's look at the New Deal and he's going, this

3467
03:01:10,480 --> 03:01:12,359
Speaker 17: is either going to produce communism or fascism.

3468
03:01:12,760 --> 03:01:13,680
Speaker 3: So like the New.

3469
03:01:13,560 --> 03:01:17,119
Speaker 17: Deal is a fundamental rewriting of the American social contract,

3470
03:01:18,040 --> 03:01:20,680
Speaker 17: and a big part of it is she's doing the

3471
03:01:20,720 --> 03:01:22,280
Speaker 17: same thing that the social democrats are trying to do,

3472
03:01:22,320 --> 03:01:24,520
Speaker 17: which is that he's trying to centralize everything into the state.

3473
03:01:24,520 --> 03:01:26,959
Speaker 17: He's trying to centralize partially this as welfare benefits. Right,

3474
03:01:27,000 --> 03:01:30,840
Speaker 17: He's trying to centralize like unions very specifically into the state.

3475
03:01:31,280 --> 03:01:34,160
Speaker 17: And he's also trying to centralize violence into this state.

3476
03:01:34,240 --> 03:01:38,040
Speaker 17: Because before this, the US, I mean, we've talked about

3477
03:01:38,080 --> 03:01:40,240
Speaker 17: sort of Blair Mountain on behind the Bachelors before, right,

3478
03:01:40,280 --> 03:01:42,920
Speaker 17: like there are just open wars between the like literally

3479
03:01:43,000 --> 03:01:46,480
Speaker 17: capitalist armies and sort of union armies, armies formed by

3480
03:01:46,520 --> 03:01:49,640
Speaker 17: labor unions, not like the Union army, Like you need.

3481
03:01:49,520 --> 03:01:52,320
Speaker 3: To clarify this. Yeah, yeah, the great anti capitalist of

3482
03:01:52,440 --> 03:01:53,240
Speaker 3: the Union army.

3483
03:01:53,480 --> 03:01:55,440
Speaker 17: And a big part of what FDR is like running

3484
03:01:55,440 --> 03:01:57,080
Speaker 17: on like part of his platform is like, Okay, we

3485
03:01:57,120 --> 03:01:59,480
Speaker 17: need to end this like era of gun thugs, right,

3486
03:01:59,520 --> 03:02:03,000
Speaker 17: Like we can't have these fucking like robber barons running

3487
03:02:03,040 --> 03:02:04,960
Speaker 17: around with their private armist killing people. And like, yeah,

3488
03:02:04,959 --> 03:02:09,040
Speaker 17: that's obviously good, right, But his solution to this is, again,

3489
03:02:09,120 --> 03:02:11,560
Speaker 17: we're going to centralize all of the violence into the police.

3490
03:02:11,600 --> 03:02:13,960
Speaker 17: And unfortunately for sort of the rest of us, Right,

3491
03:02:14,840 --> 03:02:18,439
Speaker 17: if you're going to maintain like a capitalist system, somebody

3492
03:02:18,480 --> 03:02:20,959
Speaker 17: has to be pulling the triggers, and that's now the

3493
03:02:21,000 --> 03:02:23,840
Speaker 17: police instead of these sort of like private armies. And

3494
03:02:23,920 --> 03:02:26,720
Speaker 17: the other part about this bargain is that the unions

3495
03:02:26,760 --> 03:02:29,680
Speaker 17: also have to basically disband their armies, right because the

3496
03:02:29,680 --> 03:02:32,360
Speaker 17: miners are blurboutain right, they have like seventeen thousand guys,

3497
03:02:32,760 --> 03:02:34,400
Speaker 17: like all of them have rifles. They will go out

3498
03:02:34,400 --> 03:02:36,080
Speaker 17: and they will fight. They have machine guns like they

3499
03:02:36,080 --> 03:02:37,040
Speaker 17: have cannons.

3500
03:02:37,400 --> 03:02:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's FDR who begins the gun control in

3501
03:02:40,200 --> 03:02:43,039
Speaker 3: the US for the National Firearms Act of nineteen thirty four. Right,

3502
03:02:43,240 --> 03:02:46,200
Speaker 3: Like they talk a lot about prohibition are of violence, right,

3503
03:02:46,240 --> 03:02:48,879
Speaker 3: but what happens at Blair Mountain is why you have

3504
03:02:48,920 --> 03:02:49,440
Speaker 3: the NFA.

3505
03:02:50,959 --> 03:02:53,600
Speaker 17: Yeah, and so what you have it's the same process,

3506
03:02:53,640 --> 03:02:57,680
Speaker 17: the process of sort of turning mutual aid into state programs.

3507
03:02:57,760 --> 03:02:57,920
Speaker 3: Right.

3508
03:02:58,040 --> 03:02:59,560
Speaker 17: Walls is very explicitly doing this.

3509
03:02:59,680 --> 03:02:59,880
Speaker 3: Right.

3510
03:03:00,200 --> 03:03:03,200
Speaker 17: I saw people talking about how like, oh, he's achieved

3511
03:03:03,200 --> 03:03:06,000
Speaker 17: the dream of the Black Panthers, like free breakfast program

3512
03:03:06,040 --> 03:03:07,640
Speaker 17: by like making it into the state, and it's like, no,

3513
03:03:07,680 --> 03:03:10,400
Speaker 17: you don't understand. The reason the Panthers were doing that

3514
03:03:10,520 --> 03:03:12,480
Speaker 17: was to build the roots of an autonomous society. The

3515
03:03:12,520 --> 03:03:14,760
Speaker 17: reason the state is doing that is so that you

3516
03:03:14,840 --> 03:03:17,600
Speaker 17: don't fucking revolt and you don't do twenty twenty again.

3517
03:03:18,160 --> 03:03:19,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are different things.

3518
03:03:21,080 --> 03:03:23,880
Speaker 17: Yeah, and this is something that as the US welfare

3519
03:03:23,920 --> 03:03:27,640
Speaker 17: state cycles through, you get various versions of this. There

3520
03:03:27,680 --> 03:03:29,680
Speaker 17: is another version of this that is the products and

3521
03:03:29,720 --> 03:03:33,080
Speaker 17: services that support this podcast by centralizing all of your

3522
03:03:33,120 --> 03:03:35,320
Speaker 17: money into their pockets and the music at the higher

3523
03:03:35,360 --> 03:03:37,119
Speaker 17: security guards.

3524
03:03:45,000 --> 03:03:45,520
Speaker 3: We're back.

3525
03:03:47,200 --> 03:03:49,920
Speaker 17: So the Great Society was just Johnson's sort of like

3526
03:03:50,040 --> 03:03:53,240
Speaker 17: big We're gonna end poverty thing. You know, He's doing

3527
03:03:53,240 --> 03:03:57,040
Speaker 17: the Vietnam War at the same time. Yeah, so you know,

3528
03:03:57,040 --> 03:03:58,959
Speaker 17: those are the sort of domestic kind of resurgency stuff,

3529
03:03:59,000 --> 03:04:01,000
Speaker 17: and the central lation state viol is now being projected

3530
03:04:01,000 --> 03:04:02,920
Speaker 17: out and in the US it's always happening, right, The

3531
03:04:03,000 --> 03:04:06,600
Speaker 17: US fundamentally is a project of colonial expansion, going from

3532
03:04:06,840 --> 03:04:08,960
Speaker 17: fucking one coast to the other, killing everyone in your

3533
03:04:08,959 --> 03:04:12,080
Speaker 17: path and season their land. And the contradiction of this, right,

3534
03:04:12,120 --> 03:04:16,160
Speaker 17: the fact that like the people who nominally want sort

3535
03:04:16,160 --> 03:04:19,120
Speaker 17: of welfare state also normally are like revolted at the

3536
03:04:19,120 --> 03:04:22,959
Speaker 17: fact that they're burning millions of people alive, and like Vietnam,

3537
03:04:22,959 --> 03:04:25,600
Speaker 17: Cabodia and Laos, like, this contradiction is kind of what

3538
03:04:25,720 --> 03:04:28,920
Speaker 17: terrors a part of social democratic politics and what replaces

3539
03:04:28,959 --> 03:04:32,640
Speaker 17: it is. You know, like if social democracy is a

3540
03:04:32,680 --> 03:04:35,840
Speaker 17: carot and a stick, right, neoliberalism is just the stick.

3541
03:04:36,840 --> 03:04:39,320
Speaker 17: It's just more prisons and hit you with the thing

3542
03:04:39,520 --> 03:04:43,440
Speaker 17: instead of this sort of like more genteel process of

3543
03:04:43,480 --> 03:04:45,199
Speaker 17: while we're still hitting you with the stick. But also,

3544
03:04:45,240 --> 03:04:49,240
Speaker 17: here are these handouts if you don't like oppose us. Yeah,

3545
03:04:49,280 --> 03:04:51,039
Speaker 17: so we've talked about these examples. I want to kind

3546
03:04:51,040 --> 03:04:53,000
Speaker 17: of move into some more modern examples of this because

3547
03:04:53,040 --> 03:04:56,040
Speaker 17: I think everything I've been saying is old, right, but

3548
03:04:56,080 --> 03:04:59,320
Speaker 17: this stuff is still happening today in the social democracies

3549
03:04:59,360 --> 03:05:01,680
Speaker 17: that exist, right. Like one of the biggest examples of

3550
03:05:01,720 --> 03:05:04,840
Speaker 17: this is there's two kinds of social democracies that people

3551
03:05:04,840 --> 03:05:06,959
Speaker 17: point to, depending on where in the political spectrum they are.

3552
03:05:07,120 --> 03:05:10,920
Speaker 17: One is like the Nordic countries, right. And this never

3553
03:05:11,000 --> 03:05:13,680
Speaker 17: worked on me because one of my foundational experiences, like

3554
03:05:13,800 --> 03:05:15,480
Speaker 17: as an activist when I was like a little baby

3555
03:05:15,480 --> 03:05:18,280
Speaker 17: at fifteen year old in twenty thirteen, was talking to

3556
03:05:18,320 --> 03:05:21,800
Speaker 17: someone who had a mounted cavalry charge done against them

3557
03:05:22,200 --> 03:05:24,240
Speaker 17: by the Swedish police because they were doing an anti

3558
03:05:24,280 --> 03:05:29,640
Speaker 17: fascist action and trampled by fucking horses because that's what

3559
03:05:29,640 --> 03:05:31,480
Speaker 17: the state is. And you know, so like that's like

3560
03:05:31,560 --> 03:05:33,000
Speaker 17: kind of on the one hand, but the thing that

3561
03:05:33,040 --> 03:05:36,720
Speaker 17: we're seeing right now is, you know, the remains of

3562
03:05:36,760 --> 03:05:40,400
Speaker 17: the welfare state being paired with this incredible, like rabid

3563
03:05:40,440 --> 03:05:43,280
Speaker 17: anti immigrant violence, right. And this is the thing you see

3564
03:05:43,280 --> 03:05:45,080
Speaker 17: in places like France too, right, where you still sort

3565
03:05:45,120 --> 03:05:48,039
Speaker 17: of have the welfare state. It's also this unbelievable violence

3566
03:05:48,080 --> 03:05:49,959
Speaker 17: against sort of non white people and anyone who's trying

3567
03:05:50,000 --> 03:05:52,879
Speaker 17: to like enter the country. Yeah, I think it's was

3568
03:05:52,920 --> 03:05:56,279
Speaker 17: it Sweden or was it Denmark that had these laws

3569
03:05:56,360 --> 03:05:59,000
Speaker 17: were like they would like seize the property if any

3570
03:05:59,040 --> 03:06:00,879
Speaker 17: immigrant who came into the country.

3571
03:06:02,080 --> 03:06:05,600
Speaker 3: Jesus, I don't remember that. I know more people who

3572
03:06:05,680 --> 03:06:09,920
Speaker 3: have migrated to Sweden. I think I'm not familiar.

3573
03:06:10,120 --> 03:06:10,320
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3574
03:06:10,360 --> 03:06:12,600
Speaker 17: They're also part of the sort of broader like European

3575
03:06:12,640 --> 03:06:15,560
Speaker 17: border project, which is unbelievably violent. And you're getting this

3576
03:06:15,680 --> 03:06:17,800
Speaker 17: with Walls too, right, he's signing on to sort of

3577
03:06:17,879 --> 03:06:22,600
Speaker 17: Kamala Harris's like fucking terrifying fascist border violence. And that's

3578
03:06:22,600 --> 03:06:24,680
Speaker 17: again because like all of this project is tied in

3579
03:06:24,720 --> 03:06:26,760
Speaker 17: with state centralizations. Well, okay, so what happens when you

3580
03:06:26,800 --> 03:06:31,000
Speaker 17: centralize the state? The answer is it starts enforcing its borders. Yeah,

3581
03:06:31,040 --> 03:06:34,119
Speaker 17: in order to sort of like create underclasses of incredibly

3582
03:06:34,360 --> 03:06:38,440
Speaker 17: dispossessed and incredibly battered and brutalized people who can be

3583
03:06:38,480 --> 03:06:39,360
Speaker 17: splitted for labor.

3584
03:06:39,720 --> 03:06:43,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, like people who are insecure with respect to the state, right,

3585
03:06:43,920 --> 03:06:45,600
Speaker 3: and so they can be expected by the state all

3586
03:06:45,640 --> 03:06:47,400
Speaker 3: by captives and this importans the state.

3587
03:06:47,520 --> 03:06:49,920
Speaker 17: Yeah, and you know, obviously, like the US is sort

3588
03:06:49,920 --> 03:06:52,160
Speaker 17: of one of the global pioneers, but like the norder

3589
03:06:52,200 --> 03:06:55,599
Speaker 17: social democracies are also really sort of part and parcel.

3590
03:06:55,320 --> 03:06:56,160
Speaker 5: Of the system.

3591
03:06:56,760 --> 03:06:59,760
Speaker 17: The other things I want to turn to here is

3592
03:06:59,760 --> 03:07:03,000
Speaker 17: is Latin American social democracies, because I talked about this

3593
03:07:03,040 --> 03:07:06,920
Speaker 17: at length in the Brazil episodes. Right, Brazilian social democracy

3594
03:07:07,560 --> 03:07:12,920
Speaker 17: Lula's like first term, right, has simultaneously this massive sort

3595
03:07:12,959 --> 03:07:16,680
Speaker 17: of push and social spending and then also enormous like

3596
03:07:16,879 --> 03:07:20,040
Speaker 17: a budget increases for the military. There's this incredible, unbelievable

3597
03:07:20,080 --> 03:07:22,360
Speaker 17: spike in police violence, like rate of police killings is

3598
03:07:22,400 --> 03:07:25,160
Speaker 17: way worse than the US. Yeah, and this is true,

3599
03:07:25,200 --> 03:07:27,200
Speaker 17: and like fucking all of these places, right, Like this

3600
03:07:27,280 --> 03:07:29,240
Speaker 17: is surely how the crew worked in twenty twenty was

3601
03:07:29,240 --> 03:07:31,680
Speaker 17: because the Bolivian government kept just like handing money to

3602
03:07:31,680 --> 03:07:33,240
Speaker 17: the police over and over again, and the police like

3603
03:07:33,280 --> 03:07:34,160
Speaker 17: did a cue against them.

3604
03:07:34,240 --> 03:07:34,400
Speaker 3: Right.

3605
03:07:34,840 --> 03:07:38,080
Speaker 17: This is also true in Venezuela, which is like unbelievable

3606
03:07:38,160 --> 03:07:40,439
Speaker 17: rates of police killing like terrifying.

3607
03:07:40,760 --> 03:07:43,959
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I was fair after the revolution, but I

3608
03:07:44,000 --> 03:07:47,400
Speaker 3: saw some of this happening, right, the revolution going from

3609
03:07:47,440 --> 03:07:50,320
Speaker 3: spontaneity and work is controlled and people's control to a

3610
03:07:50,360 --> 03:07:53,680
Speaker 3: degree to like being which happens in almost every revolution

3611
03:07:53,760 --> 03:07:56,160
Speaker 3: that we've seen. Right, It begins with the people, and

3612
03:07:55,879 --> 03:07:58,760
Speaker 3: then it becomes co opted by the state. It's wild

3613
03:07:58,840 --> 03:08:01,480
Speaker 3: to see like the equipment and weapons of their police

3614
03:08:01,520 --> 03:08:04,120
Speaker 3: on one hand, and then the poverty of yeah folks

3615
03:08:04,360 --> 03:08:05,600
Speaker 3: that they are policing on the other.

3616
03:08:05,680 --> 03:08:08,959
Speaker 17: And then this has also been Omlo's thing in Mexico, right, Like,

3617
03:08:09,040 --> 03:08:11,000
Speaker 17: even though he came in on the like Hugs not

3618
03:08:11,080 --> 03:08:14,119
Speaker 17: Bullets campaign, which for something comprehensible reasons, you still see

3619
03:08:14,160 --> 03:08:17,039
Speaker 17: like the fucking Washington Post writing about Omlo talking about

3620
03:08:17,040 --> 03:08:18,600
Speaker 17: how he was doing like hugs.

3621
03:08:18,320 --> 03:08:21,920
Speaker 3: Not bullets, Like she never she there was not a single.

3622
03:08:21,640 --> 03:08:24,039
Speaker 17: Day where he implemented that shit. She came in and

3623
03:08:24,120 --> 03:08:26,840
Speaker 17: immediately was like, hey, the army, do you want control

3624
03:08:26,879 --> 03:08:28,200
Speaker 17: of even more of the country.

3625
03:08:29,160 --> 03:08:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, it was very funny when Amla came in,

3626
03:08:32,160 --> 03:08:34,000
Speaker 3: right and he was doing get like hugs not bullets

3627
03:08:34,040 --> 03:08:37,080
Speaker 3: the English translation, and then simultaneously I was getting press

3628
03:08:37,080 --> 03:08:40,440
Speaker 3: releases being like, we have deployed several thousand more troops

3629
03:08:40,440 --> 03:08:42,760
Speaker 3: to the Tijuana area, come to the parade, and I

3630
03:08:42,800 --> 03:08:45,320
Speaker 3: was like, good, no, look are they huggers? They send

3631
03:08:45,320 --> 03:08:46,160
Speaker 3: in their tactical cut.

3632
03:08:46,280 --> 03:08:48,400
Speaker 17: Lula does this exact same thing in Haiti, where he

3633
03:08:48,440 --> 03:08:50,280
Speaker 17: goes to Haiti and he plays soccer with these kids,

3634
03:08:50,280 --> 03:08:52,160
Speaker 17: and he says, we will show them another way. And

3635
03:08:52,160 --> 03:08:54,680
Speaker 17: then just like in the backgrounte are all the armored

3636
03:08:54,760 --> 03:08:57,200
Speaker 17: vehicles from b resilient occupation of Haiti. It's just like, wow,

3637
03:08:57,360 --> 03:08:57,840
Speaker 17: oh my.

3638
03:08:57,920 --> 03:09:00,280
Speaker 3: God, did this show them? Sound thing?

3639
03:09:01,000 --> 03:09:05,080
Speaker 17: Yeah? And so the tie between this absorption of socialist

3640
03:09:05,120 --> 03:09:07,000
Speaker 17: politics into the state, you know, and this sort of

3641
03:09:07,040 --> 03:09:10,520
Speaker 17: centralization and increasing of state violence is something that continues

3642
03:09:10,560 --> 03:09:12,959
Speaker 17: to today. And you know, we're now kind of in

3643
03:09:13,040 --> 03:09:18,039
Speaker 17: the last decades probably too strong, but roughly decade we're

3644
03:09:18,320 --> 03:09:21,760
Speaker 17: kind of seeing social democrats like who want to break

3645
03:09:21,760 --> 03:09:23,840
Speaker 17: out of this in the form of the kind of

3646
03:09:23,879 --> 03:09:26,240
Speaker 17: like moderate abolitionists. So these are the people who are

3647
03:09:27,000 --> 03:09:28,680
Speaker 17: you know, whose thing is like, Okay, we're going to

3648
03:09:28,720 --> 03:09:30,800
Speaker 17: defund the police and we're going to like reallocate their

3649
03:09:30,840 --> 03:09:36,360
Speaker 17: resources to like funding welfare programs. And this is like

3650
03:09:36,480 --> 03:09:40,080
Speaker 17: obviously this would be good. But if you know anything

3651
03:09:40,080 --> 03:09:41,960
Speaker 17: about what happened after twenty twenty, none of this stuff

3652
03:09:42,000 --> 03:09:44,800
Speaker 17: ever happened, right, No one ever defunded the police, right, Like,

3653
03:09:44,840 --> 03:09:45,640
Speaker 17: there was no sort.

3654
03:09:45,520 --> 03:09:47,720
Speaker 3: Of movement we defunded the libraries into.

3655
03:09:47,520 --> 03:09:50,160
Speaker 17: The Yeah, but even on a fundamental level, like, I

3656
03:09:50,200 --> 03:09:53,920
Speaker 17: don't believe that this can work. And the reason I

3657
03:09:53,959 --> 03:09:55,960
Speaker 17: don't believe that this can work is because in order

3658
03:09:56,000 --> 03:09:58,840
Speaker 17: to have a state that functions, you need an apparatus

3659
03:09:58,840 --> 03:10:01,080
Speaker 17: of violence. It can inflict it subjects. I'm going to

3660
03:10:01,160 --> 03:10:01,680
Speaker 17: turn here.

3661
03:10:01,959 --> 03:10:02,640
Speaker 3: Oh this is a joke.

3662
03:10:02,680 --> 03:10:03,760
Speaker 17: You're probably not gonna get.

3663
03:10:04,000 --> 03:10:04,160
Speaker 16: Oh.

3664
03:10:04,240 --> 03:10:07,080
Speaker 17: No, I'm going to turn here to feigned political philosopher

3665
03:10:07,080 --> 03:10:11,600
Speaker 17: Brennan Lee Bulligan quote. Laws are threats made by the

3666
03:10:11,640 --> 03:10:15,080
Speaker 17: dominant socioeconomic ethnic group in a given nation. It's just

3667
03:10:15,120 --> 03:10:17,119
Speaker 17: a promise of violence as an act in the police

3668
03:10:17,120 --> 03:10:18,640
Speaker 17: are basically an occupying army.

3669
03:10:18,640 --> 03:10:22,320
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? This is the I'm aware

3670
03:10:22,360 --> 03:10:25,119
Speaker 3: of this dude. He places to chess drackens on the internet.

3671
03:10:25,280 --> 03:10:27,400
Speaker 17: Occasionally he says something that's right. And you know, the

3672
03:10:27,400 --> 03:10:31,800
Speaker 17: important thing about this is that you know, without without

3673
03:10:31,800 --> 03:10:35,439
Speaker 17: the threat of violence behind it, right, laws are just suggestions.

3674
03:10:35,480 --> 03:10:38,000
Speaker 17: You can't have a state without an apparatus of violence.

3675
03:10:38,080 --> 03:10:40,640
Speaker 17: You can't stay in power without one. And this has

3676
03:10:40,720 --> 03:10:43,880
Speaker 17: always been the sort of central contradiction of social democracy.

3677
03:10:43,959 --> 03:10:44,119
Speaker 5: Right.

3678
03:10:44,480 --> 03:10:46,680
Speaker 17: In order for Walls to have his sort of like

3679
03:10:47,040 --> 03:10:50,039
Speaker 17: pretty sparkling programs, he needs to have the cops to

3680
03:10:50,120 --> 03:10:52,320
Speaker 17: destroy you if you attempt to do anything different. And

3681
03:10:52,360 --> 03:10:55,839
Speaker 17: this is what twenty twenty was, right. Twenty twenty was

3682
03:10:55,840 --> 03:10:59,000
Speaker 17: was the most serious uprising in the US, like the

3683
03:10:59,000 --> 03:11:01,800
Speaker 17: most serious challenge to the authority of the sort of

3684
03:11:02,040 --> 03:11:06,120
Speaker 17: draychnically anti black like settler American state, right, and it

3685
03:11:06,160 --> 03:11:10,680
Speaker 17: was something that promised something different and even in you know,

3686
03:11:10,720 --> 03:11:13,640
Speaker 17: and that meant that everyone, whether you were a fucking

3687
03:11:14,080 --> 03:11:18,640
Speaker 17: like hardline fascist or you know, you were Tim Walls, right,

3688
03:11:18,800 --> 03:11:21,520
Speaker 17: your one goal was to smash it and was to

3689
03:11:21,560 --> 03:11:23,640
Speaker 17: deploy state violent. The state violence you had in your hands,

3690
03:11:23,640 --> 03:11:25,720
Speaker 17: which in this case was a National Guard, was to

3691
03:11:25,760 --> 03:11:27,640
Speaker 17: send them in to make sure that these people never

3692
03:11:27,640 --> 03:11:30,680
Speaker 17: fucking burden their police station again. And that's what happens.

3693
03:11:30,760 --> 03:11:36,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like obviously like the ability to have I've

3694
03:11:36,040 --> 03:11:37,720
Speaker 3: been thinking about this a lot because I've been writing

3695
03:11:37,720 --> 03:11:41,000
Speaker 3: a book and I'm really trying to get it fucking finished,

3696
03:11:41,040 --> 03:11:44,400
Speaker 3: so I've been writing it a lot. And like when

3697
03:11:45,080 --> 03:11:48,080
Speaker 3: a conflict, be it one within a country or between countries,

3698
03:11:48,160 --> 03:11:52,000
Speaker 3: stops being between states or about what the state should

3699
03:11:52,000 --> 03:11:54,280
Speaker 3: do and starts being about weather the state should be,

3700
03:11:55,000 --> 03:11:58,680
Speaker 3: then we see the entire state system like pivoting on

3701
03:11:58,760 --> 03:12:01,520
Speaker 3: all its suggesting more right and just being like, no,

3702
03:12:01,600 --> 03:12:04,199
Speaker 3: we cannot allow this to happen. And I think we've

3703
03:12:04,200 --> 03:12:06,360
Speaker 3: seen that domestically to a degree in the US.

3704
03:12:06,440 --> 03:12:06,600
Speaker 16: Right.

3705
03:12:06,640 --> 03:12:10,040
Speaker 3: But like the state can't abolish itself, state won't abolish itself.

3706
03:12:10,120 --> 03:12:12,680
Speaker 3: The scene qua non of the state its ability to

3707
03:12:13,240 --> 03:12:14,920
Speaker 3: lock you up, beat you up, or shoot you up

3708
03:12:14,920 --> 03:12:17,520
Speaker 3: if you do what they don't want. And that will

3709
03:12:17,520 --> 03:12:19,440
Speaker 3: always be the state as a matter. If it's got

3710
03:12:19,480 --> 03:12:23,320
Speaker 3: like a hammer and sickle or like your based fucking

3711
03:12:23,920 --> 03:12:26,720
Speaker 3: Vasha or Alassat or whatever, like, the state will still

3712
03:12:26,760 --> 03:12:28,480
Speaker 3: come and kill you if you become a threat to it.

3713
03:12:29,400 --> 03:12:32,280
Speaker 17: Yeah, And that's the solution to what hopefully will be

3714
03:12:32,360 --> 03:12:35,760
Speaker 17: the title of this episode. Why did Tim Wollz call

3715
03:12:35,840 --> 03:12:37,760
Speaker 17: the National Guard? And the answer is to make sure

3716
03:12:37,800 --> 03:12:38,640
Speaker 17: that you're never going.

3717
03:12:38,480 --> 03:12:41,080
Speaker 1: To be free.

3718
03:12:42,200 --> 03:12:45,320
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3719
03:12:45,440 --> 03:12:47,320
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3720
03:12:48,240 --> 03:12:50,720
Speaker 3: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3721
03:12:50,840 --> 03:12:53,520
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3722
03:12:53,520 --> 03:12:55,760
Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3723
03:12:55,800 --> 03:12:59,400
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts

3724
03:13:00,000 --> 03:13:02,320
Speaker 4: and find sources for it could happen here. Updated monthly

3725
03:13:02,600 --> 03:13:06,039
Speaker 4: at coolzonemedia dot com Slash sources. Thanks for listening.