WEBVTT - A Human Rights Activist Explains Why Bitcoin Is So Important to His Work 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.760 Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:20.480 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Hallway. Tracy, I don't 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:25.239 want you to take this the wrong way, but you know, no, 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.360 I know, but I kind of feel like of the 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.800 two of us, you kind of are a little have 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.760 try to think how to phrase this in a polite way. 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:36.760 You have like a little bit more like no, no, 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:38.800 it's not that bad, but you have like a little 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:45.240 bit more like sort of crankish conspiracy theory minded sympathies 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.680 a little bit conspiracy. No, no, a little bit. But 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:52.320 I am don't even know the problem is, I'm surrounded 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.240 by conspiracy theorists and I like to be fully informed, 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.680 so I listened to what they have to say. That's 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.440 that's it. I'm I'm a depository for conspiracy theory. But 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.640 like you kind of like are into gold and silver 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:09.520 and you kind of hate the Fed a little bit, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:11.720 and you kind of believe that there's bubbles everywhere, just 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.520 a little bit. I'm not saying like full on, but 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:17.119 you're like sort of like you're like kind of curious, 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.759 like you're you're open to it. Right, this is like 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.959 scandalously libelous. I don't like gold or silver. I keep 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.759 getting given it for my birthday and I end up 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.600 with it. I think the FED has done a reasonably 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.520 good job, although I certainly have some advice for them 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.640 on how to proceed. I do think the corporate bond 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:42.840 market is overvalued and there may be some trouble there 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:47.320 in the future. There those are my opinions. So the 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:49.520 only reason I brought this up because even though I 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.120 do feel like you're a little more like crank curious 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.720 than I am, I actually think that on one topic 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:00.640 you're a little like more skeptic goal than I am 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:06.400 within this whole like the crank role. What's that? Digital currencies? Yes, 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.040 I would agree with that. Yeah, Like I feel like 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.320 you're pretty like deeply skeptical of them, and you're like 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.720 kind of the view that they're all scams, and I'm 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.000 like pretty skeptical of them and think they're mostly scams. 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.560 But I'm not like as entirely negative on them as 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:28.600 a conceptually as you are. Wouldn't you say that's fair? Well, so, 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.840 I have some problems with digital currencies, but as a concept, 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.640 I think they're really really intriguing and what I like 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.320 is when people basically get up and say the only 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.600 reason for digital currencies to exist is because of regulatory 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:46.560 arbitrage purposes. Like, if we can start from that basis 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.560 and just be honest with ourselves, then I don't necessarily 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.640 have a problem with them, but I still think they 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.079 are going to face some massive, massive challenges. Okay, that's 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.240 fair enough. Well, today, I'm actually kind of hopeful that 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.120 in our converse station today, which obviously at this point 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.800 everyone's figured out, is going to be about Bitcoin and 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.720 perhaps other cryptocurrencies, that actually we might be able to 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:13.239 arrive at a place where we uh see see things 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.600 from a similar perspective. Okay, Um, I'm willing to have 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.200 my mind changed, so I'll be interested in this one. 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.080 I think that's optimistic. So you mentioned that you're kind 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:27.160 of believe that maybe there's a niche for cryptocurrencies and 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:31.680 some sort of regulatory arbitrage, and I would argue that 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.000 you could slightly accept that and broaden it a bit 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.360 if you sort of think of cryptocurrencies as not just 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:45.000 regulatory arbitrage per se, but in allowing people to engage 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:51.280 in transactions that maybe big governments or big corporations you 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.480 wouldn't want them knowing about, or maybe they wouldn't allow 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.720 you to do. It's kind of of the same category 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.840 such as illegal transactions, well some of them, but even 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:05.400 you know, illegality can be either moral or immoral, depending 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.080 on the country, in the law and context. True, and 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.120 this is something we did touch on with Joe Carlson 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.560 a while back, like the idea that what's deemed illegal 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.359 in Venezuela might actually, you know, in other countries, be 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:21.839 deemed necessary for survival, and people are using bitcoin in 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.960 order to survive. Yes, right, So today I'm very excited 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.880 because we're gonna be talking to a guest that really 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.920 ties these concepts together. His background, or at least's current position, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.080 is not what you would expect from a sort of 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.640 typical crypto guest or sort of bitcoin believer. Our guest 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:46.600 today is Alex Gladstein. He's the chief strategy officer at 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.960 the Human Rights Foundation, and he talks a lot about 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:56.600 the sort of intrinsic connection he sees between bitcoin and 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.440 human rights. Al Right, well, let's bring Alex and Alex 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.760 thank you very much for joining us. It's a pleasure 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.080 to beyond thanks for having me so like I said, 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:08.839 you know, we we talked to a fair number of 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.839 people in the crypto world from time to time. Most 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:16.640 of them are in roles that are sort of crypto specific. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.600 Maybe they work for a VC fund, or maybe they're 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.600 just an investor, they're a software developer. You have something 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.039 that's sort of a distinctly different perch, I would say 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.880 than many of the people who are interested in this 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.440 space talk to us. Just first of all, what do 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.520 you do? What's the Human Rights Foundation? And when did 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.960 your interest in uh digital currencies arise? So? The Human 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.680 Rights Foundation is a nonprofit charity based here in New 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:45.320 York City that I started working for in two thousand seven, 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.039 and the mission of the Human Rights Foundation is to 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.680 help promote freedom and human rights and closed societies. So 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.320 we work with people who live under authoritarianism around the world, 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:59.480 and by our internal metrics, about of people live under 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.320 either a partially or fully authoritarian regime. It's about four 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.679 billion people. So the kind of people that I'm talking 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.200 to all the time are struggling against various injustices in 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.159 places ranging from North Korea to China to Saudi Arabia 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.320 to Burma to Russia to Venezuela. To Cuba, to Zimbabwe, etcetera. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.840 And it's kind of from their perspective that I learned 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.919 about why money not controlled by the government would be 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.440 really useful. Um. So my perspective is just very different 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.440 from most people, I would say, even from the general 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.800 human rights community, because I have this particular focus on 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.359 trying to help people who live under authoritarian societies where 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.400 you know, they don't have independent media, independent courts, They 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.360 can't sue their government, they don't have an e f 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.440 F or an a c LU to donate to, they 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.440 can't write not bet in the newspaper. Um. You know, 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.440 their ability to hold their government accountable is like almost 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:55.000 non existent. So what these governments tend to do is 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.520 closed down the bank accounts of people they don't like, 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:01.200 or um hyper inflate the economy, or you know, just 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:05.000 basically steal or sees or confiscate funds from organizations that 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.880 are critical of them. So in this context, bitcoin is 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:13.160 very interesting. So walk us through the exact use case then, 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.400 because you're talking about very authoritarian regimes that have almost 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.080 complete power over their domestic population. So I'm curious to 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.920 what extent does bitcoin actually help those people offset the 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.280 power of the state. Sure, and I'll get into a 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:31.520 couple of examples, but I do want to make a 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.160 plea to to the listeners that this matters for everybody 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.560 generally speaking. This is what I'm about to say, is 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.240 not a conspiracy theory. Money, the kind of money that 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.680 you use every day, is transforming from a bearer asset 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.080 into a surveillance and control mechanism. That's not a conspiracy theory. 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.160 Meaning the money that I use when I use, whether 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.800 it's we chat, if I live in China, perhaps visa here, etcetera, etcetera, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.280 like the the way that I do transactions is becoming 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.280 increasingly controlled, surveilled, etcetera, moving away from a society where 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:06.200 it was okay um and widely accepted to use basically 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.000 anonymous money in the form of cash, like in fifteen 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.840 twenty years, no one will use paper or metal money. 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.960 So I think that this transition is the core of 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.640 the matter and is why having bitcoin uh and what 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.600 will be built on top of bitcoin in the future, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.960 which will be like basically hopefully private payments will be 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.560 something that can save us from essentially either like Big 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.920 Brother or surveillance capitalism. Now that need is much more 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.199 cute obviously in a place like Iran, or China or Venezuela. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.520 So I'll just give you a couple examples. So, in 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.640 Iran today, due to both American sanctions and financial controls 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.880 from the Mala's, it's impossible really to send money from 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.320 the West into Iran if you have family there to 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.320 help them. Right. So I know someone who's um living 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.280 in London. She's Iranian and her partner's father is very 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.360 sick in Tehran, right, so there's no way for them 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:03.520 to send money, uh to help this person's father. However, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.120 they can use bitcoin, So within twenty thirty minutes, uh, 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.199 they have a non k y C Bitcoin account, meaning 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.080 it's not connected in any meaningful way to their identity. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.640 The bitcoin appears on his father's phone in Tehran, and 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.160 then he uses like local exchanges to turn it into 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.160 real and get medical assistance. So this is like a 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.120 really interesting and I think important way to show that 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.040 like this can be a lifeline. Obviously you heard from 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.079 Jill on a previous episode about how some Venezuelans are 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.720 taking advantage of this as well. Some people are earning 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.000 money in bitcoin and circumstances where they couldn't earn money 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.320 like if they live in Iran or Venezuela, for example. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.760 I've seen some uptick in Palestinians using bitcoin, both in 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.760 Gaza and the West Bank. Obviously there's quite a bit 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:52.120 of uptick in places where the economy is creating, like Lebanon, Argentina. 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.520 There are organizations in Hong Kong which are starting to 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.520 get their bank accounts shut down, right So, for example, 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.160 there was an activist organization recently that that got its 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.720 HSBC account closed for political activities. Well, they can't stop 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.240 them me from donating bitcoin to them. And probably the 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.120 most important civil society organization in Hong Kong, or one 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.640 of them, is the Hong Kong Free Press, right, So 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.960 the Hong Kong Free Press has been accepting bitcoin donations 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.880 for a while now. It's been very very helpful to them. 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.280 So when you're on the front lines of freedom, I 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.680 believe that even today, like it's sort of infant state, 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.360 as a technology, bitcoin can be extremely helpful. So obviously 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.400 there's a lot to explore there. I just want to 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.640 talk a little bit more about, as you say, you're 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.240 seeing it happen on the ground, because there's a lot 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.240 of people and this is kind of something that we 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.360 talked to with Jill Is. There's certainly a lot of people, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.560 and I'm sure you come across them who like to 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.480 pontificate about how bitcoin can help people in emerging markets 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.760 or whatever, all while sort of you know, sitting in 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.240 there we work space in San Francisco or whatever, without 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.240 actually having interactive They usually talk about why some other 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.559 cryptocurrency can but sure, right right exactly, or the one 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:03.200 that they're working on, the one that they're working on 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:07.160 is going to be great for right payment, cross border payment. 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.120 To be honest, there's a lot of whitewashing space. Somebody's 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.320 working on some new token project and they're like, oh, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.480 they come to me and they're like, this has happened 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.280 numerous times. Uh, you know, we're working on this new token. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:19.480 Do you think you can help us, like find a 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.920 use case somewhere? And I'm like, no, this, this, this 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.839 is not what you know, that's not what in terms 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.360 of like you're really seeing it, you know, it's is 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.959 it more than just a sort of isolated case here 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.000 and there, Like what are you actually seeing on the 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.600 ground in terms of how so example, for example, I 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:35.760 know a guy his name is Mo he's an entrepreneur. 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.599 He was born in Aleppo, Syria. Now, of course he 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.800 lives in London, but he does some like translation and 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.480 creative work. His company does this stuff, and there are 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.720 people inside Syria who still work for him. So he 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.920 pays them in bitcoin and they use Facebook groups to 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.760 turn the bitcoin into Syrian money when they need to. 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:54.680 So in that case, the Syrian money is like a 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.640 disaster from like its perspective against the dollar, for example, 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.600 so they keep it. Actually they actually use the bitcoin 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.600 is like their checking their savings account, and then they 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:06.160 withdraw it essentially via these like peer to peer groups 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.760 into the local currency when they need to spend it. Now, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.480 of course that's a fringe example. There are not that 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.880 many countries in the world that have uh, you know, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.280 inflation that high. But it's we're talking tens of millions 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.920 of people across different hemispheres, right from Venezuela to South 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.400 Southern Africa to the Middle East. So it is something 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.720 that is making a big difference I think for many, 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.280 many people, and it won't matter as much to people 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.520 who live in New York or London or Tokyo in 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.040 the near future because we have stable economies it's easy 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.040 for us to get credit, we can get loans, are 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.320 you know, financial system works pretty well. So people kind of, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.439 I think, gloss over the real value in bitcoin. So 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.360 when I talk to human rights activists about this, I 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.280 think it's very similar to encrypted messaging in many ways. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.600 Like the average person in New York City probably doesn't 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.960 need encrypted messaging, or maybe they do, but but generally speaking, 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.320 they probably don't think they do same thing with bitcoin, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.320 and they probably don't. But the average person and maybe 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.120 Zimbabwe or in Iran may really need encrypted messaging because 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:08.880 they're trying to talk to their family or a loved 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.839 one who is, you know, in an opposition political party 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.679 or whatever. So I think both encrypted messaging and bitcoin 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.480 are our tools that are vital for people who live 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.800 under very difficult political environments, but whose value may not 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.760 be so easily understood by people who live under open societies. Okay, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.720 well let me pick up that thread just on the 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.000 point of the value. Is the value more that you 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:37.600 have payment processing that's basically done by a decentralized entity 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.920 and allows you to get money into and out of 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:44.360 a country, or is the value that bitcoin is supposed 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.200 to be anonymous and therefore untraceable. Like which one of 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.839 those things is more important from your perspective? Right, Well, 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.000 bitcoin is pseudonymous, um, but it is much better than 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.960 and as a payment. For example, if you're trying to 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.760 of aida uh someone looking at you that then using 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.280 something that's linked directly to your identity. It's not ideal, 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:06.319 and there's a lot of work that needs to be 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:08.800 done in bitcoin to make it more private. Um. But 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.080 that works being done, and it's very interesting. But what 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.160 I would say are the couple of main use cases. 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.800 Number one is like sanctions breaker, I guess we could 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.160 call it. So you're being prevented from accessing the international 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.400 financial markets for some reason, probably not your fault, Like 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.760 the average twenty three year old Iranian entrepreneur. She didn't 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.560 do anything to not be able to buy an iPhone. 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:30.520 She didn't even vote for her leaders. It's a dictatorship, 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.040 so why should she be punished? Right, So, these people 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.440 get to access goods and services from the outside world 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.320 because of bitcoin, because it breaks sanctions. The second one 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.040 is more like the example I gave with Syria, is 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.480 as like a sort of confiscation resistant parallel savings account 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.520 like the Syrian government just has no clue that these 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.240 people have this bitcoin. They have no reasonable technical way 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.720 of figuring that out, and they can't confiscate it. So 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.080 for the longest time, you know, the human with more 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:58.880 violence have been has been able to just like take 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.560 the money from someone else. Now that you can be 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.320 like clever about it and hide your private key, either 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.520 you know, somewhere on your phone or written down somewhere, 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.480 or even memorize it, we have now an asset that 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.520 is like much much more confiscation resistant. So there's censorship 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.320 resistance is important. The confiscation resistance is really important, and 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.800 over time, the privacy aspect of it, as it becomes 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.840 more mature, will be very important, especially for people, you know, 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.080 in kind of advanced economies that don't want all their 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.640 data being like sold to the data markets. So that's 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.680 that's perfect because that's where I was going to go next. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.120 You said at the beginning, and I agree with you 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.080 that it's not a conspiracy theory to say that money 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:46.000 is transforming from a a bearer assets something that I 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.520 can just hand to you and nobody knows about it, 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.320 to a sort of tool of you know, one might 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.160 put its surveillance capitalism, or at a minimum, just sort 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:58.560 of this series of credits that are being easily viewable 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.880 by corporations and government. And when I talked to or 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.440 hear from people in the West who are like extremely 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.400 negative on bitcoin, and there are a lot of people 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.160 who are and think it's just a Ponzi scheme. I 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.800 do think this is one area where people haven't fully 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.760 thought through the implications of well, what happens when literally 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.360 every payment they've done. And I watched the debate this 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.360 summer between the head of bit Max, Arthur Hayes and 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.480 Noril Rubini and no Rubini he just at one point 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.960 got up and he was yelling and he was like, well, 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.520 you know, if these people can use we Chat and 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.880 Apple pay, why do they need bitcoind And we're just 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:39.800 all laughing, because because that's that's why you don't want 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.640 all of your payments to be controlled by a single entity. 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.200 You know, it's just a matter of financial freedom and 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:47.760 sovereignty and privacy. And I say that as a person 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.040 who's pretty progressive politically speaking, I don't think this is 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.440 some radical line rand thing, like, I think that this 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.160 is something that can actually be a great equalizer and 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.760 can allow hundreds of millions of people excess in a 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.400 permissionless way to a savings vehicle that they currently don't 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.680 have access to currently. If you're, let's say, in a 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.679 lot of the situations I'm looking at, how do you 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.240 save money you buy sheet metal or cows or something 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.679 like that, this gives them an electronic way to have 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.480 something that's that's confiscation resistant and and parallel, and is 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.600 much more liquid in some cases. I mean, the only 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:23.960 reason I'm more excited about bitcoin now than I was 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.199 a few years ago is because the ability for you 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.359 to exchange it into fiat is on the rise. In 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.879 almost every major urban city in the planet. Even in 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.160 cartoon you can you can sell your bitcoin for Fiat. Today, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.280 Bitcoin on its own is not very useful to people 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.600 because they can't buy things with it, and I think 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.240 we'd be naive to think that that's going to change 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.800 anytime soon. But as a bridge between moneies and as 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.040 a way to connect people, um in a very quick way, 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.399 in a permissionless way, in a censorship resistant way. UM, 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.560 It's it's really shining. I would say, So can I 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.679 pick up that threat? Because I I agree that the 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.400 transition to digital pay months is going to cause all 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:06.080 sorts of privacy issues and also potentially hardened financial inequality 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.560 because people are only going to get you know, served 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:13.240 up products and offerings based on their own transaction history 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.119 or browsing history or whatever. But my question is, isn't 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.880 the problem with the company or the platform that you're 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.000 actually transacting with. So for instance, if I go to 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.760 Amazon and assume that Amazon could accept bitcoin, and I 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.959 buy a book, a subversive book from Amazon, and I 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.840 pay in bitcoin, isn't the problem still that I'm buying 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:40.440 through Amazon versus you know that I'm using bitcoin? Correct? 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.320 So right now, the way to get around that is 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.439 to use the gift cards. Gift cards are very important 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.320 part of the world economy. A lot of people, of 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:51.119 course in America something like Americans are underbanked essentially. Um, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.920 I was not eve enough for a lot of my 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.000 life to not understand when I walked into a Walgreens 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.160 or CVS that the gift cards weren't for Christmas gifts 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.639 there for people who don't have bank accounts, how they 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.199 make electronic payments. So we have this kind of like 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:05.800 a legal and moral um precedent right now that like 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.600 using cash to buy gift cards and buy things on 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.840 Amazon is totally fine, and we want to hold on 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:12.399 too that We don't want to let that get taken 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.040 from us. We need that. So I would argue that, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.679 like what I'm seeing is the birth of something that 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.960 may work, which would be private payments on top of bitcoin. 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:22.600 In the same way that like Visa is like a 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:24.840 layer on top of the US dollar, it's like a 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:26.600 credit system on top of the dollar. You can think 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:28.760 of Lightning as a credit system on top of bitcoin. 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.720 So what I'm potentially seeing because Square is like heavily 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:33.800 invested in this and has said that it's a matter 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.560 of when not if that they will like release this 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.439 into their cash app. At least Jack Dorsey said that 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.359 maybe six eight months ago that you'll be able to 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.400 use what is basically an anonymous gift card to buy 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.439 stuff at the Whole Foods and Starbucks and Amazon in 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.679 the next year or two using this technology called Lightning. 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.320 So it'll debit from your account, the merchant will see 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.600 the money. They won't know anything about you. They won't 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.640 know your last transaction, your name, your address, and it's 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.520 fine because they didn't need to know that stuff and 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.479 that's not how it used to work, and you know 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.560 that was the way things were. And I think it's 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.080 like an aberration historically that when you pay for something 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:29.679 today you reveal all this information about you. Do you 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.879 think it's weird? How something that I think is weird anyway? 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:35.479 I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:40.800 there are a lot of people tech critics, many of 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.560 whom are tech journalists, who really sounded the alarm these days. 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:46.240 Is picked up over the last few years about the 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:52.639 incredible power, influence and data that Facebook, Amazon, etcetera have 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.600 of our lives. Like every day you pick up the 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.840 New York Times and there's some article about how awful 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:01.240 these companies are. And yet I feel like the mainstream 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:07.119 tech critics are still like pretty dismissive of bitcoin and 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:09.920 still think it's like this like weird sort of on 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.800 ran Silicon Valley project and not really putting two and 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.440 two together as you're putting it. I mean, look, if 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.679 someone creates something better that does what I'm describing and 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.520 gives us essentially digital cash that allows me to pay 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.639 for things that I need to buy in my life 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.040 without disclosing all this information about me, or like you know, 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.800 slur rendering all my liberties. I'll be all about it, 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:33.840 but you know what this is. It is what we have. 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:36.280 This is the only way to make a digital payment 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.560 without a third party. This is why the coin is 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.200 such a revolutionary financial technology is that it allows two 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.720 entities you know, on the Internet to exchange value without 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.120 a centralized payment processor. And and that was the big deal. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.720 And that's why, said Toshi nakamotos invention is so so revolutionary, 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:55.760