1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Hallway. Tracy, I don't 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: want you to take this the wrong way, but you know, no, 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: I know, but I kind of feel like of the 5 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: two of us, you kind of are a little have 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: try to think how to phrase this in a polite way. 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: You have like a little bit more like no, no, 8 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: it's not that bad, but you have like a little 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: bit more like sort of crankish conspiracy theory minded sympathies 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: a little bit conspiracy. No, no, a little bit. But 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: I am don't even know the problem is, I'm surrounded 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: by conspiracy theorists and I like to be fully informed, 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: so I listened to what they have to say. That's 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: that's it. I'm I'm a depository for conspiracy theory. But 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: like you kind of like are into gold and silver 16 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: and you kind of hate the Fed a little bit, 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: and you kind of believe that there's bubbles everywhere, just 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm not saying like full on, but 19 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: you're like sort of like you're like kind of curious, 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: like you're you're open to it. Right, this is like 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: scandalously libelous. I don't like gold or silver. I keep 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: getting given it for my birthday and I end up 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: with it. I think the FED has done a reasonably 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: good job, although I certainly have some advice for them 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: on how to proceed. I do think the corporate bond 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: market is overvalued and there may be some trouble there 27 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: in the future. There those are my opinions. So the 28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: only reason I brought this up because even though I 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: do feel like you're a little more like crank curious 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: than I am, I actually think that on one topic 31 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: you're a little like more skeptic goal than I am 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: within this whole like the crank role. What's that? Digital currencies? Yes, 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: I would agree with that. Yeah, Like I feel like 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: you're pretty like deeply skeptical of them, and you're like 35 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: kind of the view that they're all scams, and I'm 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: like pretty skeptical of them and think they're mostly scams. 37 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: But I'm not like as entirely negative on them as 38 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: a conceptually as you are. Wouldn't you say that's fair? Well, so, 39 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: I have some problems with digital currencies, but as a concept, 40 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: I think they're really really intriguing and what I like 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: is when people basically get up and say the only 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: reason for digital currencies to exist is because of regulatory 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: arbitrage purposes. Like, if we can start from that basis 44 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: and just be honest with ourselves, then I don't necessarily 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: have a problem with them, but I still think they 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: are going to face some massive, massive challenges. Okay, that's 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: fair enough. Well, today, I'm actually kind of hopeful that 48 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: in our converse station today, which obviously at this point 49 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: everyone's figured out, is going to be about Bitcoin and 50 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: perhaps other cryptocurrencies, that actually we might be able to 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: arrive at a place where we uh see see things 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: from a similar perspective. Okay, Um, I'm willing to have 53 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: my mind changed, so I'll be interested in this one. 54 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: I think that's optimistic. So you mentioned that you're kind 55 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: of believe that maybe there's a niche for cryptocurrencies and 56 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: some sort of regulatory arbitrage, and I would argue that 57 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: you could slightly accept that and broaden it a bit 58 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: if you sort of think of cryptocurrencies as not just 59 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: regulatory arbitrage per se, but in allowing people to engage 60 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: in transactions that maybe big governments or big corporations you 61 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't want them knowing about, or maybe they wouldn't allow 62 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: you to do. It's kind of of the same category 63 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: such as illegal transactions, well some of them, but even 64 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, illegality can be either moral or immoral, depending 65 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: on the country, in the law and context. True, and 66 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: this is something we did touch on with Joe Carlson 67 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: a while back, like the idea that what's deemed illegal 68 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: in Venezuela might actually, you know, in other countries, be 69 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: deemed necessary for survival, and people are using bitcoin in 70 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: order to survive. Yes, right, So today I'm very excited 71 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: because we're gonna be talking to a guest that really 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: ties these concepts together. His background, or at least's current position, 73 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: is not what you would expect from a sort of 74 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: typical crypto guest or sort of bitcoin believer. Our guest 75 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: today is Alex Gladstein. He's the chief strategy officer at 76 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: the Human Rights Foundation, and he talks a lot about 77 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: the sort of intrinsic connection he sees between bitcoin and 78 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: human rights. Al Right, well, let's bring Alex and Alex 79 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. It's a pleasure 80 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: to beyond thanks for having me so like I said, 81 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: you know, we we talked to a fair number of 82 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: people in the crypto world from time to time. Most 83 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: of them are in roles that are sort of crypto specific. 84 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: Maybe they work for a VC fund, or maybe they're 85 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: just an investor, they're a software developer. You have something 86 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: that's sort of a distinctly different perch, I would say 87 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: than many of the people who are interested in this 88 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: space talk to us. Just first of all, what do 89 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: you do? What's the Human Rights Foundation? And when did 90 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: your interest in uh digital currencies arise? So? The Human 91 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: Rights Foundation is a nonprofit charity based here in New 92 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: York City that I started working for in two thousand seven, 93 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: and the mission of the Human Rights Foundation is to 94 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: help promote freedom and human rights and closed societies. So 95 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: we work with people who live under authoritarianism around the world, 96 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: and by our internal metrics, about of people live under 97 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: either a partially or fully authoritarian regime. It's about four 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 1: billion people. So the kind of people that I'm talking 99 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: to all the time are struggling against various injustices in 100 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: places ranging from North Korea to China to Saudi Arabia 101 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: to Burma to Russia to Venezuela. To Cuba, to Zimbabwe, etcetera. 102 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: And it's kind of from their perspective that I learned 103 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: about why money not controlled by the government would be 104 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: really useful. Um. So my perspective is just very different 105 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: from most people, I would say, even from the general 106 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: human rights community, because I have this particular focus on 107 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: trying to help people who live under authoritarian societies where 108 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, they don't have independent media, independent courts, They 109 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: can't sue their government, they don't have an e f 110 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: F or an a c LU to donate to, they 111 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: can't write not bet in the newspaper. Um. You know, 112 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: their ability to hold their government accountable is like almost 113 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: non existent. So what these governments tend to do is 114 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: closed down the bank accounts of people they don't like, 115 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: or um hyper inflate the economy, or you know, just 116 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: basically steal or sees or confiscate funds from organizations that 117 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: are critical of them. So in this context, bitcoin is 118 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: very interesting. So walk us through the exact use case then, 119 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: because you're talking about very authoritarian regimes that have almost 120 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: complete power over their domestic population. So I'm curious to 121 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: what extent does bitcoin actually help those people offset the 122 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: power of the state. Sure, and I'll get into a 123 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: couple of examples, but I do want to make a 124 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: plea to to the listeners that this matters for everybody 125 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: generally speaking. This is what I'm about to say, is 126 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: not a conspiracy theory. Money, the kind of money that 127 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: you use every day, is transforming from a bearer asset 128 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: into a surveillance and control mechanism. That's not a conspiracy theory. 129 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: Meaning the money that I use when I use, whether 130 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: it's we chat, if I live in China, perhaps visa here, etcetera, etcetera, 131 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: like the the way that I do transactions is becoming 132 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: increasingly controlled, surveilled, etcetera, moving away from a society where 133 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: it was okay um and widely accepted to use basically 134 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: anonymous money in the form of cash, like in fifteen 135 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: twenty years, no one will use paper or metal money. 136 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: So I think that this transition is the core of 137 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: the matter and is why having bitcoin uh and what 138 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: will be built on top of bitcoin in the future, 139 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: which will be like basically hopefully private payments will be 140 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: something that can save us from essentially either like Big 141 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: Brother or surveillance capitalism. Now that need is much more 142 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: cute obviously in a place like Iran, or China or Venezuela. 143 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: So I'll just give you a couple examples. So, in 144 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: Iran today, due to both American sanctions and financial controls 145 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: from the Mala's, it's impossible really to send money from 146 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: the West into Iran if you have family there to 147 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: help them. Right. So I know someone who's um living 148 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: in London. She's Iranian and her partner's father is very 149 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: sick in Tehran, right, so there's no way for them 150 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: to send money, uh to help this person's father. However, 151 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: they can use bitcoin, So within twenty thirty minutes, uh, 152 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: they have a non k y C Bitcoin account, meaning 153 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: it's not connected in any meaningful way to their identity. 154 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: The bitcoin appears on his father's phone in Tehran, and 155 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: then he uses like local exchanges to turn it into 156 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: real and get medical assistance. So this is like a 157 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: really interesting and I think important way to show that 158 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: like this can be a lifeline. Obviously you heard from 159 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: Jill on a previous episode about how some Venezuelans are 160 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: taking advantage of this as well. Some people are earning 161 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: money in bitcoin and circumstances where they couldn't earn money 162 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: like if they live in Iran or Venezuela, for example. 163 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: I've seen some uptick in Palestinians using bitcoin, both in 164 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: Gaza and the West Bank. Obviously there's quite a bit 165 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: of uptick in places where the economy is creating, like Lebanon, Argentina. 166 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: There are organizations in Hong Kong which are starting to 167 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: get their bank accounts shut down, right So, for example, 168 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: there was an activist organization recently that that got its 169 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: HSBC account closed for political activities. Well, they can't stop 170 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: them me from donating bitcoin to them. And probably the 171 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: most important civil society organization in Hong Kong, or one 172 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: of them, is the Hong Kong Free Press, right, So 173 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: the Hong Kong Free Press has been accepting bitcoin donations 174 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: for a while now. It's been very very helpful to them. 175 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: So when you're on the front lines of freedom, I 176 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: believe that even today, like it's sort of infant state, 177 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: as a technology, bitcoin can be extremely helpful. So obviously 178 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot to explore there. I just want to 179 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about, as you say, you're 180 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: seeing it happen on the ground, because there's a lot 181 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: of people and this is kind of something that we 182 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: talked to with Jill Is. There's certainly a lot of people, 183 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you come across them who like to 184 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: pontificate about how bitcoin can help people in emerging markets 185 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: or whatever, all while sort of you know, sitting in 186 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: there we work space in San Francisco or whatever, without 187 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: actually having interactive They usually talk about why some other 188 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency can but sure, right right exactly, or the one 189 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: that they're working on, the one that they're working on 190 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: is going to be great for right payment, cross border payment. 191 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: To be honest, there's a lot of whitewashing space. Somebody's 192 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: working on some new token project and they're like, oh, 193 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: they come to me and they're like, this has happened 194 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: numerous times. Uh, you know, we're working on this new token. 195 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: Do you think you can help us, like find a 196 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: use case somewhere? And I'm like, no, this, this, this 197 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: is not what you know, that's not what in terms 198 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: of like you're really seeing it, you know, it's is 199 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: it more than just a sort of isolated case here 200 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: and there, Like what are you actually seeing on the 201 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: ground in terms of how so example, for example, I 202 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: know a guy his name is Mo he's an entrepreneur. 203 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,599 Speaker 1: He was born in Aleppo, Syria. Now, of course he 204 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: lives in London, but he does some like translation and 205 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: creative work. His company does this stuff, and there are 206 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: people inside Syria who still work for him. So he 207 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: pays them in bitcoin and they use Facebook groups to 208 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: turn the bitcoin into Syrian money when they need to. 209 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: So in that case, the Syrian money is like a 210 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: disaster from like its perspective against the dollar, for example, 211 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: so they keep it. Actually they actually use the bitcoin 212 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: is like their checking their savings account, and then they 213 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: withdraw it essentially via these like peer to peer groups 214 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: into the local currency when they need to spend it. Now, 215 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: of course that's a fringe example. There are not that 216 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: many countries in the world that have uh, you know, 217 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: inflation that high. But it's we're talking tens of millions 218 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: of people across different hemispheres, right from Venezuela to South 219 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: Southern Africa to the Middle East. So it is something 220 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: that is making a big difference I think for many, 221 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: many people, and it won't matter as much to people 222 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: who live in New York or London or Tokyo in 223 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: the near future because we have stable economies it's easy 224 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: for us to get credit, we can get loans, are 225 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, financial system works pretty well. So people kind of, 226 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: I think, gloss over the real value in bitcoin. So 227 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: when I talk to human rights activists about this, I 228 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: think it's very similar to encrypted messaging in many ways. 229 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: Like the average person in New York City probably doesn't 230 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: need encrypted messaging, or maybe they do, but but generally speaking, 231 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: they probably don't think they do same thing with bitcoin, 232 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: and they probably don't. But the average person and maybe 233 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: Zimbabwe or in Iran may really need encrypted messaging because 234 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: they're trying to talk to their family or a loved 235 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: one who is, you know, in an opposition political party 236 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: or whatever. So I think both encrypted messaging and bitcoin 237 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: are our tools that are vital for people who live 238 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: under very difficult political environments, but whose value may not 239 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: be so easily understood by people who live under open societies. Okay, 240 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: well let me pick up that thread just on the 241 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: point of the value. Is the value more that you 242 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: have payment processing that's basically done by a decentralized entity 243 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: and allows you to get money into and out of 244 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: a country, or is the value that bitcoin is supposed 245 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: to be anonymous and therefore untraceable. Like which one of 246 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,839 Speaker 1: those things is more important from your perspective? Right, Well, 247 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: bitcoin is pseudonymous, um, but it is much better than 248 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: and as a payment. For example, if you're trying to 249 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: of aida uh someone looking at you that then using 250 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: something that's linked directly to your identity. It's not ideal, 251 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of work that needs to be 252 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: done in bitcoin to make it more private. Um. But 253 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: that works being done, and it's very interesting. But what 254 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: I would say are the couple of main use cases. 255 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: Number one is like sanctions breaker, I guess we could 256 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: call it. So you're being prevented from accessing the international 257 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: financial markets for some reason, probably not your fault, Like 258 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: the average twenty three year old Iranian entrepreneur. She didn't 259 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: do anything to not be able to buy an iPhone. 260 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: She didn't even vote for her leaders. It's a dictatorship, 261 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: so why should she be punished? Right, So, these people 262 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: get to access goods and services from the outside world 263 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: because of bitcoin, because it breaks sanctions. The second one 264 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: is more like the example I gave with Syria, is 265 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: as like a sort of confiscation resistant parallel savings account 266 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: like the Syrian government just has no clue that these 267 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: people have this bitcoin. They have no reasonable technical way 268 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: of figuring that out, and they can't confiscate it. So 269 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: for the longest time, you know, the human with more 270 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: violence have been has been able to just like take 271 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: the money from someone else. Now that you can be 272 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: like clever about it and hide your private key, either 273 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, somewhere on your phone or written down somewhere, 274 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: or even memorize it, we have now an asset that 275 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: is like much much more confiscation resistant. So there's censorship 276 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: resistance is important. The confiscation resistance is really important, and 277 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: over time, the privacy aspect of it, as it becomes 278 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: more mature, will be very important, especially for people, you know, 279 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: in kind of advanced economies that don't want all their 280 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: data being like sold to the data markets. So that's 281 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: that's perfect because that's where I was going to go next. 282 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: You said at the beginning, and I agree with you 283 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: that it's not a conspiracy theory to say that money 284 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: is transforming from a a bearer assets something that I 285 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: can just hand to you and nobody knows about it, 286 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: to a sort of tool of you know, one might 287 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: put its surveillance capitalism, or at a minimum, just sort 288 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: of this series of credits that are being easily viewable 289 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: by corporations and government. And when I talked to or 290 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: hear from people in the West who are like extremely 291 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: negative on bitcoin, and there are a lot of people 292 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: who are and think it's just a Ponzi scheme. I 293 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: do think this is one area where people haven't fully 294 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: thought through the implications of well, what happens when literally 295 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: every payment they've done. And I watched the debate this 296 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: summer between the head of bit Max, Arthur Hayes and 297 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: Noril Rubini and no Rubini he just at one point 298 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: got up and he was yelling and he was like, well, 299 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, if these people can use we Chat and 300 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: Apple pay, why do they need bitcoind And we're just 301 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: all laughing, because because that's that's why you don't want 302 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: all of your payments to be controlled by a single entity. 303 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: You know, it's just a matter of financial freedom and 304 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: sovereignty and privacy. And I say that as a person 305 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: who's pretty progressive politically speaking, I don't think this is 306 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: some radical line rand thing, like, I think that this 307 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: is something that can actually be a great equalizer and 308 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: can allow hundreds of millions of people excess in a 309 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: permissionless way to a savings vehicle that they currently don't 310 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: have access to currently. If you're, let's say, in a 311 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: lot of the situations I'm looking at, how do you 312 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: save money you buy sheet metal or cows or something 313 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: like that, this gives them an electronic way to have 314 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: something that's that's confiscation resistant and and parallel, and is 315 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: much more liquid in some cases. I mean, the only 316 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: reason I'm more excited about bitcoin now than I was 317 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: a few years ago is because the ability for you 318 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: to exchange it into fiat is on the rise. In 319 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: almost every major urban city in the planet. Even in 320 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: cartoon you can you can sell your bitcoin for Fiat. Today, 321 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: Bitcoin on its own is not very useful to people 322 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: because they can't buy things with it, and I think 323 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: we'd be naive to think that that's going to change 324 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: anytime soon. But as a bridge between moneies and as 325 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: a way to connect people, um in a very quick way, 326 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: in a permissionless way, in a censorship resistant way. UM, 327 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: It's it's really shining. I would say, So can I 328 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: pick up that threat? Because I I agree that the 329 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: transition to digital pay months is going to cause all 330 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: sorts of privacy issues and also potentially hardened financial inequality 331 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: because people are only going to get you know, served 332 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: up products and offerings based on their own transaction history 333 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: or browsing history or whatever. But my question is, isn't 334 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: the problem with the company or the platform that you're 335 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: actually transacting with. So for instance, if I go to 336 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: Amazon and assume that Amazon could accept bitcoin, and I 337 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: buy a book, a subversive book from Amazon, and I 338 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: pay in bitcoin, isn't the problem still that I'm buying 339 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: through Amazon versus you know that I'm using bitcoin? Correct? 340 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: So right now, the way to get around that is 341 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: to use the gift cards. Gift cards are very important 342 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: part of the world economy. A lot of people, of 343 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: course in America something like Americans are underbanked essentially. Um, 344 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: I was not eve enough for a lot of my 345 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: life to not understand when I walked into a Walgreens 346 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: or CVS that the gift cards weren't for Christmas gifts 347 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: there for people who don't have bank accounts, how they 348 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: make electronic payments. So we have this kind of like 349 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: a legal and moral um precedent right now that like 350 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: using cash to buy gift cards and buy things on 351 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: Amazon is totally fine, and we want to hold on 352 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: too that We don't want to let that get taken 353 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: from us. We need that. So I would argue that, 354 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: like what I'm seeing is the birth of something that 355 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: may work, which would be private payments on top of bitcoin. 356 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: In the same way that like Visa is like a 357 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: layer on top of the US dollar, it's like a 358 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: credit system on top of the dollar. You can think 359 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: of Lightning as a credit system on top of bitcoin. 360 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: So what I'm potentially seeing because Square is like heavily 361 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: invested in this and has said that it's a matter 362 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: of when not if that they will like release this 363 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 1: into their cash app. At least Jack Dorsey said that 364 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: maybe six eight months ago that you'll be able to 365 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: use what is basically an anonymous gift card to buy 366 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: stuff at the Whole Foods and Starbucks and Amazon in 367 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: the next year or two using this technology called Lightning. 368 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: So it'll debit from your account, the merchant will see 369 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: the money. They won't know anything about you. They won't 370 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: know your last transaction, your name, your address, and it's 371 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: fine because they didn't need to know that stuff and 372 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,479 Speaker 1: that's not how it used to work, and you know 373 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: that was the way things were. And I think it's 374 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: like an aberration historically that when you pay for something 375 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: today you reveal all this information about you. Do you 376 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: think it's weird? How something that I think is weird anyway? 377 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is 378 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people tech critics, many of 379 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: whom are tech journalists, who really sounded the alarm these days. 380 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: Is picked up over the last few years about the 381 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: incredible power, influence and data that Facebook, Amazon, etcetera have 382 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: of our lives. Like every day you pick up the 383 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: New York Times and there's some article about how awful 384 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: these companies are. And yet I feel like the mainstream 385 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: tech critics are still like pretty dismissive of bitcoin and 386 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: still think it's like this like weird sort of on 387 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: ran Silicon Valley project and not really putting two and 388 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: two together as you're putting it. I mean, look, if 389 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: someone creates something better that does what I'm describing and 390 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: gives us essentially digital cash that allows me to pay 391 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: for things that I need to buy in my life 392 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: without disclosing all this information about me, or like you know, 393 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: slur rendering all my liberties. I'll be all about it, 394 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: but you know what this is. It is what we have. 395 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: This is the only way to make a digital payment 396 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: without a third party. This is why the coin is 397 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: such a revolutionary financial technology is that it allows two 398 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: entities you know, on the Internet to exchange value without 399 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: a centralized payment processor. And and that was the big deal. 400 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: And that's why, said Toshi nakamotos invention is so so revolutionary, 401 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: and and that that is what I think allows us 402 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: to start to think about a parallel way of doing 403 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: things as opposed to relying on all these third parties 404 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: when we do digital transactions. Why people haven't figured this 405 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: out yet, I'm not sure. I mean, it's quite um. 406 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of open mindedness, let's put it 407 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: that way to like kind of look at this and 408 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: be like, well, maybe bitcoins part of the answer. Well, 409 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: by the same token, you know, you mentioned that your 410 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: own views politically tend to be more on the progressive side. 411 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: What is the reaction to it among fellow human rights 412 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: activists in the West that you deal with at work 413 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: or other human rights organizations? Do they do? They typically 414 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: of the same initial reaction, that's mostly like sort of 415 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: like I rand, it's weird because for many years working 416 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: in the human rights space, we didn't even think about 417 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: money or currency at all as as relevant. And I 418 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: remember this vividly. I invited a Zimbabwean opposition leader named 419 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: Ivan Mauire to speaking an event a couple of years 420 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: ago in San Francisco with Jill Carlson actually, and we said, hey, 421 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: do you want to come talk about hyper inflation? We 422 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: just want to do an event on hyper inflation and 423 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: kind of allow people to understand what it like. And 424 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: he said sure, and he and I asked him to 425 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: come and prepare some remarks on what he saw as 426 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: a Zimbabwean happened in his lifetime economically, and he's like, 427 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: no one's ever asked me to do this before. I 428 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: thought that was kind of strange. But when he got 429 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: on stage and he started talking, he took out a 430 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: necklace that he was wearing under his shirt and it 431 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: was the nineteen eighties and Babwean dollar, and he was like, 432 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: we all wear this, all the activists, and not all 433 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: of them, but a lot of them as a symbol 434 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: of what our economy used to be. Is fascinating, and 435 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: I just think the money and currency we use is just, 436 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, in a different hemisphere or blocked off 437 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: from what we think of his human rights. So for 438 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: many many years I didn't even think about it. Like 439 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: I saw Mark Anderson's New York Times article about bitcoin, 440 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: which I still think is one of the better explanations 441 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: of what it is, and that kind of put it 442 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: on my radar. But it was until a couple of 443 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: years later that that someone I knew who worked at 444 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: one of these UH mining companies bit Fury, was like, hey, 445 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: we should like maybe get human rights activists to learn 446 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: about this. That I started to really dive in and 447 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: then it it just sort of it went from there. 448 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: But the human rights organizations today MSTY International, Human Rights Watch, 449 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: if you just searched the word bitcoin, you won't find it. 450 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: It hasn't gotten there yet, even even e f F 451 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: and Wikipedia, which did receive bitcoin donations for a while 452 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: and then like they you know, early on, and then 453 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: they got rid of it, and now they're kind of 454 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: becoming more warmed to it. I would say even the 455 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,719 Speaker 1: digital civil liberties organizations are really like UM have position 456 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: themselves to be very skeptical of it, which I think 457 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: is uh is a mistake. I think they should be 458 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: open minded to it. So we're not there yet with 459 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,239 Speaker 1: with human rights organizations. They just haven't. It's not that 460 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: they're like really against it, they just haven't really realized 461 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: that this is going to be really key. So money 462 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: has always been entwined with with the notion of the 463 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: sovereign state in many ways. So do you worry that 464 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: in arguing that bitcoin or some new digital money technology 465 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: can successfully bypass the state and create a sort parallel 466 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: um payment system. Do you worry that by arguing that, uh, 467 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: you know, you'll make it sort of more likely or 468 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: it will become inevitable that governments eventually cracked down on this. 469 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: Of course there will. I mean we're seeing that now. 470 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think bitcoin, properly understood and manifested, 471 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: uh will be a much greater threat to authoritarian governments 472 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: than democracies. I think there's ways in democracies for citizens 473 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: to have like back and forth and negotiations with their 474 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: elected representatives, and we could come to agreements like, for example, hey, 475 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: maybe it's cool that like unders dollars when you make 476 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: a payment digitally, it can be anonymous, that's fine. But 477 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: you want to buy a house, you want to pay 478 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: for tuition, you want to get a big loan by 479 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: a weapon, whatever, maybe you need to provide I d 480 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: But to me, this is like something that we could 481 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 1: actually negotiate in a in a in a democracy, especially 482 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: when like the United States, where we have a history 483 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: of like cash being like an important American value. In dictatorships, 484 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: I think bitcoin is gonna be much more um of 485 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: a problem because they won't want to give up their 486 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: control over money. So I mean, obviously I think bitcoin 487 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: separates money from state and I think that's going to 488 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: be a really big problem for authoritarian systems because of 489 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: the way that they kind of seize most of the 490 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: money in the economy and and and then do things 491 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: that the population probably wouldn't be so hot on. And 492 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: of course this happens in America. We just saw how 493 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: much money did our government, or at least my government 494 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: spend on wars in Afghanistan in interact something absurd. I mean, 495 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: I didn't choose for them to do that. So, like 496 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: super long term, if I'm thinking utopian, I suppose I 497 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: would say that like an economy that's more based on 498 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: this kind of asset would hopefully prevent that kind of 499 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: um excessive spending that would lead to things like police 500 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: states and and unnecessary wars. But that's that's very far 501 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: into the future. So within the US or within the 502 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: Western developed context, one of the memes that you heard 503 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: early on is that bitcoin is useless except for buying 504 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: drugs online, and maybe that's it, And some bitcoin defenders 505 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: had like, Oh, that's really unfair. But I still kind 506 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: of think it's fair in the sense that the properties 507 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: of bitcoin that make it easy or possible for someone 508 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: in Iran to send money to their a link relative 509 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: to get health insurance or to get healthcare, the properties 510 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: that enable that transaction, which most people think are good, 511 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: are the same properties that allow people to engage in 512 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: truly illicit things in the West, like buying drugs. There 513 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: was also a big bust recently of a child pornography 514 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: ring and there were some bitcoin related payments. How do 515 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: you sort of address the fact that there is a 516 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: neutrality in some sense to the technology such that we 517 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: could sit here and talk about all the great things 518 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: that allows people to do for freedom, but also in 519 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: theory it makes doing very bad things also possible. Yeah, 520 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really similar to the debate 521 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: about encryption. UM law enforcement may say in Britain and 522 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: Australia honestly, which you're turning into the biggest predators of 523 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: private information, which is bizarre given that their democracies. But 524 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: they're basically trying to say, well, if you guys want 525 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: to have like peer to peer messaging that's encrypted, we 526 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: want to be and we want to be in the room, 527 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: you know, we want to be like the third party, 528 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: which is which is crazy. We need that ability to 529 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: communicate privately and it doesn't mean we're doing bad things. 530 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: There's some studies that have been done. So there was 531 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: like an m I T based study that looked at 532 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: bitcoin activity. I think it was a study that was 533 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: done last year and they looked at it about two 534 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: percent of all the transactions they viewed as criminal pertable 535 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: laws of the United States. Now that's very low. UM 536 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: from what I've seen, about nine percent of the U. 537 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: S economy is like quote unquote black market are illegal 538 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: and the average O E C D countries like is 539 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: what I've seen. So I think over time, the amount 540 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: of bitcoin being used for illegal stuff will probably kind 541 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: of flow up and and even out around what. But 542 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: I don't think the way. I don't think the medium 543 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: um where the type of money we use will make 544 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: people any less evil or good is my general gut feeling. 545 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's again it's like we need it. 546 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: Like if we don't want to live in a society 547 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: where all of our behaviors and movements and transactions are 548 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: controlled and where we cannot criticize or descent or protest, 549 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: then we're gonna need the version of digital cash. The 550 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: example that was so vivid I saw this summer was 551 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: that Hong Kongers were starting to use cash to buy 552 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: like metro cards so that they could go into the 553 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: subway system and then exit without being spied on, because 554 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: if they went and used their like I D Linked 555 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: Octopus card to do so, their employers could figure that 556 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: out and then fire them. And you need to be 557 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: able to protest to hold your government accountable. This is 558 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: like something really important to democracy. So right now the 559 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: Hong Kongers are able to do that because they have cash, 560 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: But fifteen years they won't have cash, So how are 561 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: they going to protest? Especially in an urban environments. This 562 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: is another reason why I think digital cast is just 563 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: so vital to democracy. I would just basically say that, 564 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: you know, financial privacy is essential, essential to a healthy democracy. 565 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: I would ask people to show me other options. I'm 566 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: certainly open to it, but like bitcoin plus second layer 567 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: technology that makes a private seems like the best one 568 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: right now. So the trope for technology is always that 569 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: it starts off well intentioned and then at some point 570 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: sort of becomes terrible. Why would bitcoin not be the same. 571 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: And the reason I bring that up is because, like, 572 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: for instance, we saw China outlaw bitcoin very very early on, 573 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: and now within the past few months, China's central Bank 574 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: has come out and said they're exploring the idea of 575 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: doing their own digital currency. So how would we ensure 576 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: that bitcoin or other digital payment technology doesn't become opted 577 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: by bad actors or used to bad ends. Yeah, that's 578 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: a great question. Um, I think we need to separate 579 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: the technologies here. So I would compare what you just said, 580 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: comparing like bitcoin, which is like open source, censorship resistant, 581 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: decentralized money that nobody owns or no one has, you know, 582 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: authority over comparing that with what the Chinese are going 583 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: to build, which is going to be highly controlled, highly survailable. 584 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I think my personal view of what they're 585 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: end goal is is to replace the M zero inside 586 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: China with something that's trackable, get rid of paper metal 587 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: money entirely. I view these as like as different as 588 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: um signal and UH and we chat Like. Yes, they're 589 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: both digital currencies, but they're very very different kinds of 590 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: digital currencies. So I think we just need to to 591 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: bear that in mind. But it could go wrong. Yeah, 592 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: Like my destopic view of bitcoin would be much like 593 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: the original open Internet was perverted into like these like 594 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: kind of siloed data collection mechanism like Facebook and Google, etcetera. Uh, 595 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: and that original promise of connecting us all privately was betrayed. 596 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: I think what could happen with bitcoin. The what I 597 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: think is most reasonable as a worst case scenario is 598 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: that all of the exchanges and places and marketplaces that 599 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: we go to exchange bitcoin and turn it back and 600 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: forth into Fiat become surveillance points, and then it becomes 601 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: not very useful. Well, I was I was going to 602 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: go exactly there. It seems like you could envision a 603 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: scenario in which the government really does crack down on 604 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: making sure that every entryway into bitcoin is very heavily 605 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: compliant k y C, A m L. You have to 606 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: give over tons of information or illegal like THEE. And 607 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: so that's my next question. What if one day the 608 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: government was like, you know what, you can't banks, Bank 609 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: of America, Wells Fargo, Charles Schwab, you can't make transfers 610 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: to coin base, you can't make transfers to etcetera. Whatever. 611 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 1: And the industry is still not that big, so you know, 612 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: they're probably not gonna have much leverage to fight back. 613 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: Do you worry about that? And could the ecosystem still thrive? 614 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: Could it still be as a liquid if Western market 615 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: regulators just said, you know, you're not allowed to deal 616 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: with this. I mean, look, I think government's it's strange. Actually, 617 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: once you have a full comprehension of what bitcoin kind 618 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: of makes possible, it's bizarre that they haven't tried to 619 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: kill it more aggressively. That's what I think. It's really weird, 620 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: and I think over time they're going to regret it 621 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,239 Speaker 1: in a big way. Lationship. But but let's just for 622 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: a second imagine that governments have all done something they've 623 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: never been able to do. A plus of all agreed 624 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: that we're all going to band bitcoin whatever. Okay, so 625 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: the price really tanks, it becomes um something that's much 626 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: harder to get obviously, but even so, let's say I'm 627 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: in China five years from now, and it's become completely 628 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: very difficult to to get and I can't use there's 629 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: no more cash in China, so like it's very difficult 630 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: to to buy or sell. I mean, I could still 631 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: invite my friend over to my house and he could 632 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: help me with homework or something, and I could pay 633 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: him on we Chat for helping me with homework, and 634 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: on the side, using two non k y C wallet's, 635 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: you know, he could have sent me bitcoin. Like, I 636 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: don't think you can get rid of it. I think 637 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: it's it's open source software. I mean, it's it's almost 638 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: like an idea. It's very hard to kill. So I 639 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: think you can. You can damage the price, but ultimately, 640 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: as long as the mining continues to chip away and 641 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: process the transactions. And what's really interesting is that Cheese 642 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: and Ping, because he's so authoritarian, what we're watching is 643 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: some mining move out of China because it's too it's 644 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: too strict, and it's decentralizing and going to other places. 645 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: So as long as mining itself can be done, then 646 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: I think the network will will survive um and and 647 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: provide this very important thing that we I think we need. Alex, 648 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: that was a great conversation and I really appreciate you 649 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: joining us. Super fun. Thanks. Thanks Alex, that was really 650 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: interest time. So Tracy, in the beginning, I sort of 651 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: speculated that maybe this conversation would be one where we 652 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: kind of saw eye to eye and maybe it sort 653 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: of fit within both of our views on the space. 654 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: But I'm curious if you felt the same way, because 655 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: it felt like we kinda it felt like it kind 656 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: of made sense. First of all, twenty or thirty minutes later, 657 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: I still haven't forgiven you for calling me crank curious. 658 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: But secondly, look, I'm totally on board with a conversation 659 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: about the privacy threat posed by new technologies and specifically 660 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: by digital payments. I just got back from China, where 661 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: by the way, I had to register my I D 662 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: in order to get on alley pay uh, and it's 663 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: very very clear that every transaction on there is recorded. 664 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: So absolutely it's a concern. I still have my doubts 665 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 1: about whether or not bitcoin is the solution to it, 666 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: and the big question I have, and this sort of 667 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: gets to like old theories from international relations. The big 668 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 1: question that I have is whether or not states are 669 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: going to allow their sovereignty or their power to be 670 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: undermined by this thing that is very clearly you know, 671 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: it's almost explicitly stated in the white paper and the 672 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: way cryptocurrency enthusiasts talk about it, something that is clearly 673 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: aimed at undermining or bypassing their authority. I completely agree, 674 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: and to Alex is a point at the end, if 675 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: you think through the implications of this and actually just 676 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: sort of like go several steps down the road, it 677 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: is very surprising that any government is even in the West, 678 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: has been as tolerant as they have. Not only have 679 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: they not like really cracked down, like actually have like 680 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: regulated futures and stuff like that that add liquidity to it. 681 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: Like it's really weird because if you really think it through, 682 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: and I almost wonder whether they will, um, you know, 683 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: come to regret it, and you sort of wonder if 684 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: cowt they're like cowed by this idea is like, oh, 685 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: we don't want to stifle innovation. And someone came in 686 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: and gave a presentation about blockchain, and they got am 687 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: really excited. But it does seem like if you're really 688 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: just sort of like follow the thread the clashes, you 689 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: will you would expect them to intensify over time. So 690 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: here's something you'll like almost two years ago to the day. 691 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: And I hate to do this, but I'm going to 692 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: refer to one of my previous tweets, So I tweeted, 693 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: it's obvious regulators are going to end up regretting not 694 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: acting on more and sooner. On the one hand, if 695 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: it fails miserably, there are going to be burned investors. 696 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if it's a wild success, their 697 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: authority or efficacy will be threatened. Like to me, it's 698 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 1: so so clear they're going to regret this down the line. 699 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: I completely agree. One other point that I thought that 700 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,879 Speaker 1: Alex made, which was really I find to be very 701 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: compelling and a good question to pose to people, is 702 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: if we can establish that there is something concerning about 703 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: the end the fact that every one of our transactions 704 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: will be traceable online with the trans with the trend 705 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: we're going to. His point is like, Okay, maybe there's 706 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: a better solution out there to digital cash bearer assets 707 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: that allow me to pay you without person ce being 708 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: able to see or approve of the transaction. But they 709 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: certainly don't exist yet, and no one has really put 710 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: forth a better, more compelling idea. Some people talk about 711 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: central bank digital currencies that could be designed as cash replacements. 712 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: That doesn't really seem like many central banks are enthusiastically 713 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: embracing that right now, but it's certainly true. As to 714 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: his point, it's like, Okay, well, like, if we can 715 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: accept that it's a problem or it should be of 716 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: a cold certa into society, then what do you propose 717 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: as the better approach to enabling these kinds of transactions? 718 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: And right now, I don't think many people have thought 719 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: that question, or let alone come up with good answers 720 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: to it. No, that's true. It feels like more people 721 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: should be working on it. And the other thing I 722 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: would just throw out is there's sort of a convenience 723 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: aspect to all of this, which sounds terrible because we're 724 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: talking about human rights. But what I mean by that 725 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: is there are ways to bypass the system or conceal 726 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: your identity currently, so Alex mentioned gift cards, of course, 727 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: and then you know you have people in Syria who 728 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: are using bitcoin and then exchanging it via a Facebook platform. 729 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: The problem with all of those things is that it's 730 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: an extra step in making the transaction and you have 731 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: to put some effort into it. And the thing with 732 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: all of the new digital payment systems like Ali pay, 733 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: like we Chat, Venmo, whatever, is there's just really easy 734 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: to use and really convenient, and people are willing to 735 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: sacrifice their privacy for the sake of convenience, which you 736 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: know is terrible in the long run, but you could 737 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: see why people do it in the short run. And 738 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: I'm not sure anyone has really come up with a 739 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: response to you know, human nature. Well, I will, I 740 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: completely agree, And I think this is also one of 741 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: the key things to think about, which is that people 742 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: look at the difficulty of using bitcoin and they compare 743 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: it with PayPal or Visa or Ali pay or whatever 744 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: we chat, and they're like, yeah, it's really it's really cumbersome. 745 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: It's difficult. It's difficult for even season people. But if 746 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: you compare it not to reach at, but compared to 747 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: some other means for moving moving money in and out 748 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: of say a repressive regime, think, for example, of the 749 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: steps that people in China go to, or they like 750 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: pay some junk at operator to take them to Macau. 751 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: Then they play back around for several hours, lose a 752 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 1: bunch of money doing that, cash out their chips et cetera. 753 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: If you compare bitcoin to that versus we chad, suddenly 754 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,479 Speaker 1: Bitcoin actually looks like the more convenient thing. So I think, 755 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 1: like a the convenience is a big detriment to privacy. 756 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: But as more people perhaps feel they must have a 757 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: censorship free solution or they must engage in a transaction 758 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: that's not allowed, then you might, over time start to 759 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: make the convenience case for bitcoin not by compared gets 760 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: to Ali pay, but by compared it to something way 761 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: more uh convoluted. Yeah, so all we need someone to 762 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: do is to create a reasonably convenient method of bypassing 763 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: the existing financial system without sufficiently angering the authorities so 764 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: that they crack down on it. Good luck. But if 765 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: if anyone has any better ideas, we'll have them on Yeah, 766 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: tell us let us know. Alright, this has been another 767 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You 768 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, and I'm 769 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: Joe Why isn'tal. You can follow me on Twitter at 770 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: the Stalwart, and you should definitely follow our guest on Twitter, 771 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: Alex Gladstein. He's at Gladstein. And be sure to follow 772 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: our producer on Twitter, Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson, 773 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,320 Speaker 1: as well as our substitute producer Today, our old producer 774 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: who's filling back in for the day to for Foreheads. 775 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: He's on Twitter at foreheads t and follow the Bloomberg 776 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: head of podcast, Francesco Levi at Francesco Today. Check out 777 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: all the Bloomberg podcasts under the handle at podcasts. Thanks 778 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: for listening.