WEBVTT - Strategies to Nurture Your Child’s Developing Mind w/ Dr. Dan Siegel 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.080 in partnership with I Heart Radio. There is no such 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:13.640 thing as perfect parenting. There just isn't the reason. Over 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.480 these years, you know, when I've written parenting books, I 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.760 always include the ways I've messed up as a parent. 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.840 Is because it's always room to reconnect after a rupture, 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:33.479 you know, to make a repair. Hi, everybody, and welcome 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.760 back to Katie's Crib. Today's guest is truly is such 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:39.960 a gift that we got him to come home to 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.760 the podcast. He has written two of my favorite most 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.960 useful books on my bedside table. It's Dr Dan Siegel. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.840 He wrote No Drama, Discipline and The Whole Brain Child, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.800 and I use them both constantly. If you've never heard 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:57.640 of them, don't walk, run to get them. I learned 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.400 so much. We talk a lot about the power of 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:05.160 showing up. We talk about development trauma and helpful mindfulness 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.240 exercises that we can start with our young children now 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.920 so that they can continue to practice such techniques into adulthood. 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.960 Dr Siegel is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.240 u c l A School of Medicine and the founding 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.800 co director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at u 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.080 c l A. He's also the executive director of the 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.400 Mind Site Institute, and the institute focuses on such topics 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.240 as the development of mind site empathy, and integration of 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.920 families and communities. Dr Siegel is published for both professional 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.280 and general audiences, and his work includes five New York 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:40.480 Times bestsellers, including Aware, The Science and Practice of Presence, 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.760 mind A Journey to the Heart of Being Human, and 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.160 two of his best sellers, The Whole Brainchild and No 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.680 Drama Discipline, were co authored with Dr Tina Payne Bryson. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.120 Thank you so much, Dr Siegel for making time and 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.880 for coming onto Katie's crib. I just want to tell 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.440 you I'm such a huge fan. I have read your books. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.280 I am a parent of two children, and I'm trying 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:09.519 to implement lots of your things. I've watched Google talks, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:15.800 and I've listened to you on Chelsea Handler's podcast. Oh great. First, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.120 for those listening who may not know you, just tell 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.239 us a little bit about how you come to your 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:27.600 parenting books through science and through interdisciplinary science and Katie Speak. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:32.280 It's like lots of different sciences coming together, right Yeah, 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.440 what I've been trying to do, being trained both as 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:40.280 a physician and a scientist, in becoming an educator and 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.240 also you know, being a therapist, wanting to see if 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.200 there was a way to combine all the different disciplines 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:51.600 of science into one framework. So in my professional academic writing, 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:53.480 you know, we have a whole series of books that 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.920 I edit that other people write in this approach. So 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.480 we have over seventy five textbooks for esstionals, and then 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.040 I also write, you know, my own books a little 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.600 bit in that series, but also for the general public, 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:11.080 including parenting. That's called interpersonal neurobiology, which is a fancy 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.119 term just meaning what if you went inside for the personal? 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.760 What if you went in our relationship with the inters 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.560 that's the interpersonal, And what if you look not just 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.119 at the brain, but the whole way in which all 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.200 the different systems were part of the entire nervous system 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.160 and the whole body, but then the systems of relationships 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.519 we have with humanity and with nature. If you tried 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.160 to understand those systems from a scientific point of view, 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.680 how would that influence, for example, the way you approach 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.640 parenting or how you would approach psychotherapy, or you know, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.720 how you might even approach the way we deal with 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.400 the environment or racism, or how we're approaching the pandemics 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.680 that we have. So it's a really exciting moment to 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.720 try to bring the research findings of science to practical application. Yes, 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.600 it's sort of like instead of going to one doctor 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:08.240 for one specific thing, what's great about you are sort 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:15.680 of bringing lots of different things together. Mindfulness, psychotherapy, science, 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.280 all of these things, like you were saying, to help 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:24.440 us be better parents, to raise a whole integrated brain child. Exactly, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:33.360 well said I put things in real Katie's crib terms. Now, um, 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.800 why is it important to care about your child's brain 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:41.160 and development as a toddler? And also for me, is 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.840 my three and a half year old already screwed? Like like, 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.440 oh god, I mean, are these the most sometimes I 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.080 hear these are the most important years. If you haven't 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:55.520 really done it before five or seven year you can 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.800 fill in the blanks talk to me about the toddler brain. Right. Well, 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.520 first of all, thanks with the question. And you know, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.920 I think for everyone listening, we can all take a 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.520 deep breath and say there is no such thing as 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.520 perfect parenting. There just isn't the reason. Over these years, 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.640 you know, when I've written parenting books, I always include 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.080 the ways I've messed up as a parent is because 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.320 it's always room to reconnect after a rupture, you know, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.560 to make a repair. And in fact, not that you 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.520 should try to make ruptures in your connection with your kid, 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:33.679 but they happen inevitably even if you're you know, expert 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.360 in this area or write books in this area or whatever. 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.039 And when my kids got old enough to read and 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.279 reflect them what I was doing, and I asked their 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.120 permission and to make sure what I was writing was accurate. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.720 They both read this piece that I've written about some 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.839 conflict the three of us had, and they said, well, listen, 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.520 it's accurate. But what's wrong with you that you want 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.679 to let the world know what a jerk you can be? Great, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.800 what a relief? Yeah. So I said, okay, I'm putting 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:02.480 it in there. They go, why would you do that? 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.640 I said, I'm doing that because the story that you're 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.200 saying is accurate is really about how we reconnected after 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.760 I messed up, and people need to know that instead 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.040 of aiming for something that's called perfection or just getting 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.599 right you have a direction you aim for, so you're 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.400 not just lost, and you can be inspired by science 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.600 but not getting imprisoned by science. So even the word attachment, 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.040 you know, I'm an attachment researcher. I'm trained through the 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.479 National Instudentental Health blah blah blah to study attachment. So 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.839 what the research on attachment shows is that, first of all, 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.039 human beings can have more than one attachment figure. But 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.960 what that means is kids can have different attachment figures. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.720 That's number one. Number two. It also shows that you're 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.360 asking about, you know, is your three and a half 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.960 year old messed up? You know? Is that these attachment 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:59.479 experiences can be healed if there's real, big ruptures in 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.800 them anytime in the lifespan. Earlier is better than later, 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.560 but doing it is better than not doing it. Yeah, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.400 when you talk about attachment secure versus insecure, I just 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:14.440 want to make sure people understand what attachment what that means. Yeah, 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.680 So there is a formal approach to parent you called 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:19.960 attachment parenting that, as far as I can tell, has 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.200 nothing to do with attachment research. So I'm not talking 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.920 about attachment parenting. So the word attachment can be used 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:28.840 however you feel like using it. No one's got like 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.360 an ownership of it. But in the field of psychology 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.400 that studies child development, there's a branch of that called 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.600 attachment theory and research. That's just what they used for 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.160 their academic studies. That's what I'm trained in, and what 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:47.520 we do is we study of parents and other caregivers 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:51.640 and how they interact with children. One of my colleagues 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:53.800 has been doing this in a study over forty five 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.280 years in length, where they study the families before the 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.559 child was born, so during a pregnancy, and now those 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.960 kids are in their mid forties. In a nutshell, what 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.280 we've learned from that attachment research is that there are 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:12.960 these patterns in which we tend to fall, which include, 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:18.040 in the broadest categories, what's called secure attachment, which leads 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.560 to resilience in a child. And that's in the United States, 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.520 somewhere between fifty five and six kids with their primary 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:30.120 caregiver have a secure attachment's great news, But for close 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.640 to a third to a half, you know, we have 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.480 non secure attachment with their primary caregiver, which is what 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.760 the research studies. Because you have many a number of 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.600 attachment figures when you look at the non secure forms, 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.360 there are three kinds. One is avoidant, which is about 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.480 of population, where basically it was emotional distance, and the 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.480 kid learns how to be prematurely autonomous, right, and that 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.040 has all sorts of consequences in that person's adulthood and 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.520 their romantic relationships. And then the second grouping, which is 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.920 about fifth team person of the population, is ambivalent attachment, 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.080 where they got mixed messages and so instead of the 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.840 disconnection of the avoidantly attached kid with the primary caregiver, 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.080 this one is kind of confused, like who are you? 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.480 Who am I? I'm not sure do you love me enough? 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.880 Maybe you do, maybe you don't write, and the boundaries 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.040 were sometimes not clear, sometimes they were true to intruded upon. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.640 And then overlapping these three secure and the two forms 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:29.880 of non secure is the most concerning form disorganized attachment. 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.400 And these kids have the worst outcome, where you are 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.200 terrified of your caregiver, and so obviously this is an 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.280 abuse and neglect, but even in more subtle forms where 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.079 you may not be removed from the care of your parents, 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.200 but here you're still being terrified of the caregiver in 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.680 various ways. And those kids develop what's called dissociation, so 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.479 they have a fragmentation of their mind. Now it's very healable, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.360 it's very disturbing of their ability to regulate their own 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.760 emotions or to engage in mutually rewarding relationships with others. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.120 So I've worked with, you know, adults who bring their 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.200 obviously older parents in talk about a rupture a long 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.360 time ago or something like that. That's right, and some 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.960 of the most amazing healing has happened, you know, when 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.480 the parents are in their sixties or seventies and they 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:20.480 come in and the child is in her thirties or forties, 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:23.960 and then we do the work, and it's amazing that 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.120 the healing, the reconnecting, the becoming whole is what healing needs, 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.959 you know, really requires a kind of kindness and vulnerability 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.720 that allow to heal from ruptures. It doesn't always happen. 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.839 Not all parents are up for that. So sometimes you 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.560 as an individual need to make sense of your own life. 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.160 And Mary Hartzel, my daughter's preschool director, and I wrote 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.080 a book called Parenting from the Inside Out. Yeah you did, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.120 and and we can talk about that. But that inside 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.280 out approach basically says you're going to heal yourself, even 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.360 if your parents don't cooperate, or even if they're not 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.280 still alive. So, if you've had an avoidant back ground, 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.400 you can move towards security. If you've had an ambivalent background, 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:05.960 you can move towards security. And if you've had a 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:10.200 disorganized one, you can move towards these various forms of 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.840 non secure attachment, but even security. So the great news 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.079 is that if you're listening, you can change. And you know, 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.920 the mindset book I wrote, you know, or parenting remainside 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.400 out give you the pathways to change. Can you give 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.800 me an example of a big rupture versus a little rupture, 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.000 just so I have like a sort of framework. A 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.199 rupture would be obviously like a divorce or like moving 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.480 out of parents. I mean huge things, right, Yeah, So 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.760 let's just look at the science of that. There is 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:46.760 a term called developmental trauma that usually means abuse of 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.520 some sort or neglect. And then neglect can be severe 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.560 emotional neglect or severe physical neglect. And obviously the abuse 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.920 can run the range of sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.880 where there's something very negative that's present rather than the 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.360 absence of something positive that's needed. And neglect and abuse, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.760 these forms of developmental trauma. There's basically the experience of 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:16.400 a child being terrified of something being created by the 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:20.440 attachment figure, which means the parent usually, but it can 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.600 be other attachment figures. Now you know feel that I'm 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.880 a part of attachment. Research shows is that when a 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:32.480 child feels terrified of the attachment figure, it creates a 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.680 kind of bind inside their own brain, a double thing 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.600 going on. One thing is that the deepest part of 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.679 the brain says, oh my gosh, I'm being terrified. Let 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.440 me get away from the terror. But another part of 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.920 my brain, a little bit higher up in the brain says, 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.600 I'm a mammal, and when I'm in a state of terror, 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.719 where I go is to my attachment figure to be protected, 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.679 because that's one of the main things attachment is all about, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.440 is safety. So here's the difficult situation. It's called fear 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:06.800 without solution. It's a biological paradox. If the attachment figure 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.960 is causing the state of terror, then one part of 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.600 the brain says, get away from that source of terror. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.400 The other part says, go towards the attachment figure, who 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.760 is the source of terror. So your mind fragments. That's 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.760 the most extreme. Now it doesn't have to be abused 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.560 and neglect, so this is where people should know about it. 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.080 It can be an example of flipping your lid as 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.840 a parent where you're not abusive in terms of neglect 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.720 or physical abuse. It's not developmental trauma, but it is 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.080 still terrifying to your kid. So this is now a 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:45.600 little step down. And yet it can be very toxic 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.720 to a child, even if you don't want to use 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.319 the word trauma, and it could fall into the category 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.920 of adverse childhood experiences, which is what you're talking about. 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.760 In my household, I have a very, very dynamic three 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:03.840 and a half year old toddler boy who really enjoys 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.240 if you tell him to do something, he's not going 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.440 to do it, and enjoys that. It's like wild and 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.520 it's perfect for me, because good lord, we couldn't be 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.520 more opposite. So I'm a hippie in my sort of 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.840 parenting style. And it was quick to realize that worked 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:21.920 for the first two two and a half years with 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.040 my son and now it really doesn't. Anyway. My husband 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.840 has really more of the disciplinary and if you would 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.440 go with a good cop, bad cops situation. Now when 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.640 you use the word disciplinary, and what do you mean, 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.400 Like he was better at following through, Like we have 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.680 a long leash, but if it's something where someone's going 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.720 to get hurt, or we have a new born at 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:42.400 three and a half month old, and one time he 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.720 stepped on her head on purpose and it was like, okay, 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.200 and now you're going to your room, and you have 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.320 to think about what you've done. And violence is never tolerated, 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.600 and we don't touch our friends bodies this way and 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.000 our family members and blah blah blah. My husband is 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.520 better at that than me in just like you're going 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.080 your room right now. I'm so angry at you. This 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.320 is unacceptable. And guess what hanukas canceled? Christmas is canceled, 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.480 dessert is canceled, TV is canceled. And then he goes 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:14.120 to his room and it was very upsetting and he 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:15.960 was very sad and it was the most trouble he's 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.560 ever got in and rightfully so, he's he literally looked 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.080 me in the eye and stomped on his newborn sister's head. 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:25.800 But my son is more afraid of my husband than 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.920 he is me, Like, is this a rupture because Adams 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.280 like I don't want to be the bad cop all 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.320 the time. But our son is not someone that listens 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.280 easily with being told what to do. And I don't 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:40.920 know if it's the age, I don't know, if it's 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.120 his spirit. I have no idea. I've only met him 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.360 three and a half years ago. This podcast for everyone 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.320 has just literally become my session with my son. You're welcome, everyone, 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.000 don't worry. We'll get back on topic in one. Here's 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.120 the thing everyone listening should just take a deep breath 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.560 and reflect that every kid is different. They have, you know, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.360 something called it temperament, and that's kind of their inborn 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.600 proclivities that are in the eight There are not learned 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.880 and they're slightly modifiable, but not that much. Temperament is 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.560 very real. Some of it is genetically related, but in 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.640 any event, it's inn eight, not learned. Right. So the 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.600 next thing that we're talking about is attachment. You know, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.160 how do the relationships you have with your caregivers, you know, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.000 within the family setting, influence how you work through your 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.840 way of being in the world to develop what's simply 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.960 called personality. When I think about my two kids, you know, 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.120 they had very different temperaments. So if you thought you 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.840 were doing a strategy that worked for the older one 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.480 and then tried it on the younger one who temper 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.560 was totally different, it just wouldn't work. So you can 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.200 have a broad approach to attachment, like you want to 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.520 develop secure attachment, but then there are absolutely modifications one 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.240 needs to make depending on the temperament of the kid. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.840 So let's talk about Adams, you know, being stern talking 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.200 about the brain a little bit. As the brain is developing, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.760 let's say from nine to twelve months, which is the 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:04.879 time when a kid begins to crawl, um, the brain 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.840 of that child has got to learn to develop these 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.480 basically like a break, you know, to to to shut 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.600 down behavior. And so what you see then in this 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:18.359 time period is parents start saying no, no, no, no, 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:22.320 no a lot. The way you say no is what's important, right, 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.720 So if you say no, no, no, no, no no, 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.119 and nothing happens, the kids inhibitory circuits are not going 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.719 to develop, right, and so they're just gonna push you 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.720 and push you and push you until you just you 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.280 think you're gonna lose your mind. You're using the word 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.240 stern for Adam, So be able to be clear about it. 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.159 I said, no, you know, like this, You know, it 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.679 may make your kid frustrated, It may make them really 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:52.040 piste off, but it's not terrifying them. Now. Inhibiting that 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.719 may take a stern boundary that if you can't create it, 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.720 Adam can create it. Oh no, I've gotten good. It's 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.600 a learning curve. But I'm here. Yeah, okay. Good. So, 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.879 because when there's dangerous things going on like that that 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.479 could be harmful, sometimes you have to say no, you know, 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.720 and but there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Ruptures 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.359 happen a kid. Their job is to push against the boundaries, 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.000 and then, depending on your own childhood and your own temperament, 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.600 you know you're gonna cave in in various ways. Here's 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.320 an example where my kids were older than your son 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.400 is at that time. But I had a nine at 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.000 the time, my daughter and then our son was fourteen, 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.840 and they went to the movies. Right. I took my 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:34.680 daughter to a movie, and my son wanted to go 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.000 to a movie with his friends. We picked up her 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.320 brother and we were walking by this crepe store near 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:42.920 where we live, and my son said, he's hungry. I said, 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.240 you want to creepe, and he said, yeah, I love creep. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.240 And then I asked his sister, do you want to crepe? 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.000 She goes, I'm not hungry. I said fine, you know, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.280 so we went in. He got a creep and then 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.600 she said to him, can I have a taste of 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.560 your crepe? He goes now and he's eating and needing 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.320 it and smells are coming from the scrape. She can, 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.520 I have a little bit. He goes, okay, okay, get 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.240 and he cuts her off that inche that's like really 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.320 burnt and tasteless, and so hands it to her on 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:13.240 his fork. She goes, that's too small. Oh hilarious, and 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.159 he goes forget it. And I'm just fuming inside, like 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.800 I've done horrible job teaching him to be a sharer 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.080 and he's selfish and all stuff. We get in the car, 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.399 you know, and I slammed the door shut, and he goes, 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.199 what's wrong with you? What's wrong? I said, well, you 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.200 didn't share the crape and he goes, yeah, because she 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.680 didn't want one, and I was hungry. I said, well, 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.040 what if this is one of those friends you know 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:37.920 then you went to the movies with him? He goes, 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.240 I'd give them half my crape. So I go, well, 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.800 why wouldn't you give your sister one? He goes, she's 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.399 not my friend. Yeah, and then I exploded. Luckily my 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.080 wife was home and she intervenes. When we get we 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.120 all have three of us get home, and then my 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.639 system is starting just slowly calm down. And so his 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:01.000 sister and I go for rollerblading out on the street 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.639 and she says to me, she goes, dead, what was 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:08.560 going on? Why why did you get so angry? I said, oh, 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.119 you know, because he didn't share the crepe with you. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.680 She goes, I can handle myself. What was happening? I said, oh, 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.000 I guess if I thought about it. You know, I'm 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.800 a younger child, just like you're the younger sibling, because 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:22.960 my brother was really mean to me, and if your 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:24.960 brother was ever mean to you, I was never gonna 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.080 let that happen to if I ever had kids. And 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:28.920 so I was trying to guess work through the way. 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.040 My parents never protected me, so I was trying to 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.040 protect you. And since she looks at me, she goes, 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.320 this is your own garbage. She goes, why don't you 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.960 work this out on your own time? And that's parenting 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.119 to talk about this crapes of wrath business. That was 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.160 the rupture and then figuring it out. But the repair 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.560 happened when she and I got back from the rollerblading thing. 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:54.159 We had a family meeting and and I apologized to 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.119 my son for having you know, flipped my lid, for 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.520 just asserting his right to eat his crape by himself. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.760 And I was able to talk about, you know, to 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.119 him about what the experience was like and then with it. 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.959 Since his mother didn't watch all this, I asked him 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.640 if he wanted to, you know, share what the experience 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.480 was like, and then he imitated me, and he did 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.800 a really good job of how ridiculous I was, so 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.800 so inside of me. I had to be ready in 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:28.080 terms of the repair process. And we're the older, more experienced, wiser, 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.960 hopefully ones than our kids. So it's our responsibility to 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.120 make the repair right. That's so important. Yeah, we need 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.800 to understand that these are vulnerable places in us. So 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.239 whatever issues I have with my brother being you know, 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.920 protected by my parents and me not being protected and 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:46.960 all these kind of stuff, that's not for me to 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.520 work out with my kids, but it's to to work 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.760 it out with them that I did something pretty scary 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:57.080 cur saying slamming the slamming the door. It was terrible, 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:58.800 I mean, and so I had to own that and 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:01.760 apologize for that instead of saying, yeah, but you made 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:03.800 me do it because you wouldn't share. And I don't 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.360 like selfish kids. You know, I could, you could do that, 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.040 you could go that route, sure, but that's really the 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:24.800 opposite of repair. I think I was watching maybe it 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:26.920 was your Google talk, but so much about we're talking 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:31.440 about these repairs and ruptures. If you do a lot 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.440 of the repairing of your own life, it's so helpful 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.000 to you as a parent, because a lot of times 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:42.920 nothing shows you your weaknesses more. And I sit here 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:45.640