Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am UKTUA thrated this week the
Speaker 1: UK's big bet. I read a lot of headlines about
Speaker 1: climate change and I know you do too. Together they
Speaker 1: paint a dire picture because climate impacts are growing and
Speaker 1: wore leaders are stepping back from bold action needed to
Speaker 1: tackle climate change. It's something that we talk about on
Speaker 1: this show with some frequency. But last week I saw
Speaker 1: something that bucked the trend. The UK submitted new climate
Speaker 1: goals for twenty thirty five to the United Nations, and
Speaker 1: they are among the boldest and most ambitious in the world.
Speaker 1: The UK has long been a climate leader. It created
Speaker 1: the first climate change law for a large economy all
Speaker 1: the way back in two thousand and eight. It built
Speaker 1: an independent watchdog in the Climate Change Committee. It's twenty
Speaker 1: thirty five goal, we'll see an eighty one percent reduction
Speaker 1: in greenhouse gas emissions relative to nineteen ninety levels, and
Speaker 1: now it has a plan to reach clean power by
Speaker 1: twenty thirty So how is it that the UK is
Speaker 1: making big bets when everybody else is stepping back. The
Speaker 1: best person to help us understand that is Chris Stark.
Speaker 1: He used to run the Climate Change Committee and now
Speaker 1: runs the newly created mission controlled Task Force for Clean Power.
Speaker 1: He is the Labor government's man to make sure that
Speaker 1: the UK reaches ninety five percent clean power by twenty thirty.
Speaker 1: It's a tough goal, and even tougher when you're trying
Speaker 1: to do it while reducing energy prices. But even as
Speaker 1: Chris focuses on this ambitious goal, Labor's leaders are sending
Speaker 1: mixed signals. They want to open new runways and expand
Speaker 1: airports across the UK, including at Heathrow. They might even
Speaker 1: sign off on new oil fields in the Nazia. All
Speaker 1: of that is going to add complication to Chris's job,
Speaker 1: so we had a lot to talk about. I spoke
Speaker 1: with Chris at the British Library in London at the
Speaker 1: Energy Transition Acceleration Forum curated by the Carbon Trust. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the forum and welcome to the Zero Podcast again.
Speaker 2: Chris.
Speaker 3: It's nice to be back with you again. Asha.
Speaker 1: Now let's start with the big picture before we get
Speaker 1: to the goals that you are going to have to
Speaker 1: achieve while you're working for the government. We spoke about
Speaker 1: a year ago and you at that time told me
Speaker 1: that the climate census in the UK cannot be taken
Speaker 1: for granted.
Speaker 2: Since then, Donald Trump is back in the White House.
Speaker 1: The typically climate forward labor government has been at times
Speaker 1: deprioritizing decarbonization.
Speaker 2: So would it be fair.
Speaker 1: To say that now the climate consensus globally cannot be
Speaker 1: taken for granted? And what should climate forward leaders like
Speaker 1: you and many of those in the audience be doing
Speaker 1: at this time.
Speaker 4: So I stand by my comments to you a year ago.
Speaker 4: It's amazing, that's only a year. Actually, that's incredible. It's
Speaker 4: been quite a year. The climate consensus is not something
Speaker 4: you should ever take for granted. And the best example
Speaker 4: of that is that in the last year we've seen
Speaker 4: some of the most extreme weather events that we've ever seen,
Speaker 4: probably the most extreme year ever in terms.
Speaker 3: Of recorded history.
Speaker 4: But it doesn't connect automatically to desire globally, from at
Speaker 4: least from our politicians globally, to do more on climate mitigation.
Speaker 4: Interesting question whether it might lead to more of a
Speaker 4: focus on client adaptation and resilience, I said, Rale. I
Speaker 4: suspect it will, although I suspect we'll probably end up
Speaker 4: calling it something else. But I sort of feel I
Speaker 4: want to challenge some things that you said. I mean
Speaker 4: I do think we are a climate forward government here
Speaker 4: in the UK. And the difference I suppose is that
Speaker 4: we are not in the world of setting you know,
Speaker 4: new targets, only that we actually want to demonstrate that
Speaker 4: you can deliver against those targets. So the reason I
Speaker 4: do this job is because fundamentally, having been the person
Speaker 4: that advised on the targets for the country for the
Speaker 4: last well I've been at this there for more than
Speaker 4: ten years. If someone offers you the chance to come
Speaker 4: in and help deliver them, I feel you've got to
Speaker 4: sort of take that up. So the Clean Power a
Speaker 4: bit of this is just stage one, right, it's sort
Speaker 4: of base camp. And once we're at base camp, we
Speaker 4: can start sending the mountain. But that mountain is going
Speaker 4: to be largely driven by electrifying our economy, as I'm sure.
Speaker 3: We'll discuss this in this discussion, but cleaning up.
Speaker 4: The power system is I think the very best way
Speaker 4: for us to demonstrate that as a government we are
Speaker 4: even more committed to our climate objectives because we're focused
Speaker 4: now on delivering them.
Speaker 1: So the Clean Power Mission, and let's define it, because
Speaker 1: it's ninety five percent clean power and five percent on
Speaker 1: abated gas.
Speaker 2: It's been more than six months since you started.
Speaker 1: One of the important pieces of advice I ever got
Speaker 1: at the start of my career from my Linel manager
Speaker 1: was that you know, take six months to understand the job,
Speaker 1: but by the end of it, you should know what
Speaker 1: you're doing.
Speaker 2: So how confident are you? That's how you confident?
Speaker 1: Are you that the UK can reach the clean power
Speaker 1: goal by twenty thirty and what have you done so
Speaker 1: far to reach that conclusion?
Speaker 3: So I am confident.
Speaker 4: I mean I'm not recklessly confident, but I am confident
Speaker 4: because I think I want to just make this point
Speaker 4: that what we've committed to do is really right on
Speaker 4: the edge of what we think is possible. So I
Speaker 4: acknowledge that we call it a mission for a reason.
Speaker 4: It is an actual mission, and just to make the
Speaker 4: point that you know, governments can have a few missions,
Speaker 4: they can't have hundreds. And I think it is really
Speaker 4: important that we selected this one as as something that
Speaker 4: has the support of the whole government right up to
Speaker 4: the Prime Minister'd say it also has the support of
Speaker 4: other parts of government in the UK as well, including
Speaker 4: notably our devolved governments. You're right to define it so
Speaker 4: what we've done in the first six months, we have
Speaker 4: not wasted. I feel I'm coming up for seven months now.
Speaker 4: I don't feel I've wasted a single day in that time.
Speaker 4: Even over Christmas. We have moved lightning fast to try
Speaker 4: and define what we mean quickly and then move into
Speaker 4: quite an exciting period where we also define the policies
Speaker 4: that we think will be needed to deliver it, to
Speaker 4: allow me to start this year moving into genuine delivery mode.
Speaker 3: Now, let me just.
Speaker 4: Briefly cover those things. So the challenge of clean power.
Speaker 4: The reason I do this job is because when I
Speaker 4: was at the Climate Change Committee, I spent a very
Speaker 4: happy period of my life working with some of the
Speaker 4: world's best analysts looking at how you could decarbonize a
Speaker 4: whole economy by twenty fifty. The last time we did
Speaker 4: this was for the sixth Carbon Budget Assessment. We're about
Speaker 4: to see the CCC's seventh Carbon Budget Assessment.
Speaker 3: I'll be a keen reader of that when it comes.
Speaker 4: But last time round we did something that I don't
Speaker 4: expect the SECC to do this time, which we had
Speaker 4: five different scenarios, all of them complete scenarios with integrity
Speaker 4: within them, and they're all very different by design because
Speaker 4: we wanted to it was the first time the country
Speaker 4: had a net zero target. We wanted to demonstrate there
Speaker 4: was more than one way to skin a cat, so
Speaker 4: we looked at five different ways to hit that goal.
Speaker 4: One thing you can do when you've done something like
Speaker 4: that is look across the five and you can see
Speaker 4: there's some common factors to those scenarios, quite a few
Speaker 4: actually common facts is one of them is that there
Speaker 4: is a point when you can see you've got a
Speaker 4: clean power system. But the second points that is that
Speaker 4: you shouldn't be overly purist about what that means. So
Speaker 4: the kind of fundamental of what we're trying to do
Speaker 4: in the UK is based on that analysis, and we've
Speaker 4: basically asked our Energy system operator it's called NISO in
Speaker 4: the UK, to give us their view of how you
Speaker 4: fulfill a target like that. Basically in a world where
Speaker 4: we expect to have gas in the power system, right,
Speaker 4: so we are in a very unique moment where we
Speaker 4: can use gas as a backup, flexible backup and progressively
Speaker 4: reduce the amount of gas that we're burning each year
Speaker 4: in the power system to the point where by twenty thirty.
Speaker 4: End of twenty thirty, we're going to take the whole year,
Speaker 4: but by the end of twenty thirty we might need it.
Speaker 4: We can get that belief five percent in that year,
Speaker 4: and I've called that herculean.
Speaker 3: I stand by that.
Speaker 4: That was what I said before I come into this job,
Speaker 4: and it's that sort of effort that you need to
Speaker 4: make it happen. Now we should talk about all the
Speaker 4: things that need to be on to do that, but
Speaker 4: we define that quickly and then produce an action plan
Speaker 4: around that, and here we are at the start of
Speaker 4: the year now implementing it.
Speaker 1: So the accent action plan is detailed, that's available for
Speaker 1: anybody to read.
Speaker 2: There are some big numbers in there.
Speaker 1: There's two times as much onshore wind that needs to
Speaker 1: be built by twenty thirty, three times as much solar,
Speaker 1: lots of more energy storage, a lot more transmission, five
Speaker 1: times as much flexibility on the grid on the demand side,
Speaker 1: which we should talk about. But the main thing you
Speaker 1: take from it is that you're going to have to
Speaker 1: build for a rapidly changing system, and that means it's
Speaker 1: going to be expensive. The estimate is about two hundred
Speaker 1: billion pounds of investment going towards the mission towards decarbonizing
Speaker 1: the grid, but also expanding the grid. And given the
Speaker 1: financial pressures that the government is facing, how do you
Speaker 1: think that investment can be secured and how much of
Speaker 1: that will the government be on the hook for.
Speaker 3: So let me again challenge a word that you use.
Speaker 4: It expensive is a word that's doing a lot of
Speaker 4: it's doing a lot of heavy lifting in that question,
Speaker 4: and I don't regard it as expensive. So let me
Speaker 4: briefly explain why I think that we need to get
Speaker 4: ourselves what we're only trying to do here. Yes, I'm
Speaker 4: trying to clean up the power system and tremendously important
Speaker 4: that we do that. But I think even more importantly
Speaker 4: than that, we are preparing for a period after twenty
Speaker 4: thirty when we're going to need to seriously grow the
Speaker 4: power system because we expect the end use of transport
Speaker 4: uses and the industrial uses and domestic heating and cooling
Speaker 4: to become electric. And we're in a period now where
Speaker 4: the demand for electricity before twenty thirty is probably fairly flat.
Speaker 4: So if you can clean up the power system quickly,
Speaker 4: you will be in the right place to then grow
Speaker 4: the power system after that. So that expense, as you
Speaker 4: called it, is basically a down payment on that. We
Speaker 4: are investing in a clean power system that we know
Speaker 4: we're going to need into the twenty thirties. Now, the
Speaker 4: mission twenty thirty is enormous challenge. We've got another one
Speaker 4: after that, hopefully at a more measurable measured pace, to
Speaker 4: grow the power system, probably by fifty percent, possibly even
Speaker 4: more than that, might even double by twenty fifty. So
Speaker 4: we are basically getting ahead of that by encouraging that investment.
Speaker 4: And that two hundred billion you referred to is what
Speaker 4: happens if you roll up the investments in storage, in generation,
Speaker 4: and in networks that we think we need for twenty thirty.
Speaker 4: That prepares us and that is not a cost directly
Speaker 4: to the consumer, at least not initially, so we will
Speaker 4: recover those costs from the consumer or from the taxpayer.
Speaker 3: These are choices over a very long period.
Speaker 4: So we're in a moment where if you walk with
Speaker 4: me on this, we can get the investment done early.
Speaker 4: We can benefit in terms of the benefit to the
Speaker 4: economy from that investment. We buy ourselves an enormous amount
Speaker 4: of additional energy security with that investment, and the costs
Speaker 4: to the consumer come after that over a very long
Speaker 4: period match the game a reduction in the costs from
Speaker 4: not burning fossil fuels in the power system. So if
Speaker 4: we play our cards right, bring that all together, we
Speaker 4: get an enormous economic return, we get a huge climate benefit,
Speaker 4: we get energy security, and we don't have that cost
Speaker 4: to the consumer that lots of people worry about. And
Speaker 4: I am confident that can be done. I'm also confident
Speaker 4: that the kind of power system you get at the
Speaker 4: end of that, with long term contracts for renewables particularly,
Speaker 4: brings down what we call the wholesale price of electricity
Speaker 4: and translating that into a lower cost for the consumer
Speaker 4: is a really nice challenge to have.
Speaker 1: I think so Clean Power Mission obviously says on the
Speaker 1: tin what you're doing, but if you read the announcement,
Speaker 1: it's clean power mission with cheaper electricity prices. Right, It's
Speaker 1: not just about decarbonization, it's about lowering electricity prices.
Speaker 2: And now we've seen in.
Speaker 1: Elections around the world that when governments don't address these
Speaker 1: pocketbook issues around energy prices, they get booted out. In
Speaker 1: my own analysis, I have not seen a single country
Speaker 1: where there is high electricity prices and high electrification rate
Speaker 1: or just the absolute amount. And so isn't there a
Speaker 1: risk in the plan that you've laid out, which is
Speaker 1: going to require to build a lot more gas power
Speaker 1: plants as a way of managing the intermittency that comes
Speaker 1: with renewables.
Speaker 2: Of course there's storage that will be included. But isn't
Speaker 2: there a risk with even.
Speaker 1: More gas power plants even if the reliance on gas
Speaker 1: is going down, that the prices of electricity may rise.
Speaker 1: The UK has among the highest electricity prices already, they
Speaker 1: could become costlier. How will you deal with that scenario?
Speaker 4: So I am sure we can bring down costs to
Speaker 4: the consumer. I don't know exactly what the price of
Speaker 4: electricity will be in twenty thirty because a lot of
Speaker 4: it is so dependent on globally traded gas. And actually
Speaker 4: that's the secret here is that at the moment, even
Speaker 4: though we have very extensive power system renewables, power system,
Speaker 4: gas sets the price very often in the wholesale market,
Speaker 4: and that price of gas, but in the last few
Speaker 4: years has been at historic high, quite astonishing levels over
Speaker 4: the last two or three years, and it continues to
Speaker 4: be the reason why eltricity prices are high in this country.
Speaker 4: I don't know what's going to happen to the gas
Speaker 4: price if the gas price fell, so too with eltricity prices,
Speaker 4: But in a sense, I don't want to be wedded
Speaker 4: to that uncertainty any longer.
Speaker 3: So there's two aspects to the energy security point.
Speaker 4: I think one is the actual energy security that comes
Speaker 4: from having some homegrown power, especially from renewables, also some
Speaker 4: nuclear in.
Speaker 3: There with storage.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: That idea of being more self sufficient that I could put
Speaker 4: it that way, and less dependent on those goal markets
Speaker 4: is one aspect of energy security. The other one is
Speaker 4: the energy insecurity that comes to the consumer from the
Speaker 4: requirement to be on this you know, very unpredictable gas
Speaker 4: price roller coaster. And we buy ourselves quite a lot
Speaker 4: of insurance by doing what we're trying to do with
Speaker 4: the clean power to the clean power goal. And the
Speaker 4: crucial point is that if you want to displace gas,
Speaker 4: you've got two things to do. One is to build
Speaker 4: out more of those long term renewable contracts and clean
Speaker 4: power contracts that we will sign over the next few
Speaker 4: years and reduce the points over the course of the
Speaker 4: year when gas sets the price, and that's essentially what
Speaker 4: we're doing. And the other thing that we can do
Speaker 4: is bring on a set of technologies that provide a
Speaker 4: similar service to a gas fire power station when you
Speaker 4: need it, and they are typically the sort of low
Speaker 4: carbon flex that you need in the power system or
Speaker 4: long duration energy storage technologies. So those moments when you
Speaker 4: absolutely have to turn to gas at the moment, and
Speaker 4: the reason we are able to accommodate renewals is because
Speaker 4: we have.
Speaker 3: That gas fleet. We also could do with moving to
Speaker 3: a new set of technologies that sort of displace the
Speaker 3: market power of gas at that moment, and we will
Speaker 3: do that too. So there's lots of.
Speaker 4: Reasons to think that the consumer price can come down,
Speaker 4: but you've got to deploy these things at scale quickly
Speaker 4: to see that happen. And that two hundred billion that
Speaker 4: you referred to is but north of forty billion pounds
Speaker 4: of capex each year between now and the end of
Speaker 4: twenty thirty is the investment in that grid that supports
Speaker 4: that and those technologies, and that is the secret. Now,
Speaker 4: let me just agree with the premise of the question.
Speaker 4: You're absolutely right to say that our success depends not
Speaker 4: just on building stuff, but also in the consumer seeing
Speaker 4: the benefit of that. I think there's a broader story
Speaker 4: beyond just consumer prices about the economy and people in
Speaker 4: the communities hosting infrastructure scenes and benefit from that too,
Speaker 4: And you might extend that into of public consent for
Speaker 4: these things. These are the things that keep me awake
Speaker 4: at night, so I'm restless to get that sorted.
Speaker 3: Those consumer issues.
Speaker 4: I would really like to see us move to where
Speaker 4: we were seeing the electricity price in particular come down,
Speaker 4: because the rest of the story on decarbonization rests on
Speaker 4: a cheaper electricity price.
Speaker 3: Ultimately, if you want people to take a.
Speaker 4: Heat pump, if you want people to move to electric car,
Speaker 4: if you want industries to move to electrified technologies, the
Speaker 4: best possible policy is a cheaper electricity prize.
Speaker 1: After the break, more from a conversation with Chris Stock
Speaker 1: And if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a
Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or Spotify. It helps other listeners find the show. In
Speaker 1: trying to get to cheaper electricity prices, one thing that
Speaker 1: you have to do a lot of is to build
Speaker 1: transmission so that you are not paying to shut down
Speaker 1: wind power in the north when there is demand in
Speaker 1: the south. Last year those payments added up to one
Speaker 1: point eight billion pounds from the Great Operator just to
Speaker 1: shut wind power in the North down. But there is
Speaker 1: a lot of opposition to transmission, just to building in general.
Speaker 1: How do you maintain support for the transition and for
Speaker 1: building when people are not willing to allow for building
Speaker 1: or you know, there's anger being stoked to try and
Speaker 1: stop transmission from being built.
Speaker 4: So a few things on this. The first thing is
Speaker 4: we've got to do genuine consertation for those communities. So
Speaker 4: I mean, this is not a plan that will ride
Speaker 4: roughshod over those communities, but there are going to be
Speaker 4: some difficult decisions I had about location of infrastructure, so
Speaker 4: I don't think I conduct that. I would say though
Speaker 4: as a country as a whole, what holds us back
Speaker 4: is the fact that we haven't built stuff quickly enough.
Speaker 4: So my feeling, certainly from the ten years plus I've
Speaker 4: been looking at this, is that there's a frustration commonly
Speaker 4: expressed that we just haven't gone and done the job.
Speaker 4: So the sort of top line here is we're going
Speaker 4: to build things in this country, and that is the
Speaker 4: measure of success. The barriers to that are actually pretty extensive,
Speaker 4: and they're often barriers that the government itself puts in place.
Speaker 3: Some of them are really justified, some of them less.
Speaker 4: So we need to push through those barriers and make
Speaker 4: sure that we have the minimum of delay in getting
Speaker 4: infrastructure in the right place of the country that we need.
Speaker 4: But the kind of next part of this, I suppose
Speaker 4: is that if you buy that idea that we're going
Speaker 4: to build it, I think you've also got to take
Speaker 4: people with you on the value of doing this in
Speaker 4: the round. And the ultimate test of whether wee I'm
Speaker 4: successful or not is whether people see the value of
Speaker 4: the power system that we're creating, either in their bills
Speaker 4: or in the energy security that I talked about. And
Speaker 4: the very final thing, I'll make it very quickly. There
Speaker 4: is a story out there. You do read it that
Speaker 4: we're somehow going to carpet the country and pylons and
Speaker 4: wind farms.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not true. We are not going to do that.
Speaker 4: So I think the other part of the story is
Speaker 4: bringing some rational discussion to that. It's actually quite that's
Speaker 4: very few parts of the country that will see development.
Speaker 4: Most of the grid investment is offshore. So I think
Speaker 4: we can do this in a way that sort of
Speaker 4: by support as long as we are truthful and honest
Speaker 4: than direct about what we're trying to do and the
Speaker 4: impacts that will bring.
Speaker 1: So global electricity demand rise, as we saw is about
Speaker 1: three percent expected to be in countries like India and China,
Speaker 1: they've seen seven to ten percent electricity demand rise for
Speaker 1: now over two decades.
Speaker 2: And they know how to build and the UK does not, as.
Speaker 1: You've talked about, even if we take the public opposition out,
Speaker 1: so offshore building for example, you know the North to
Speaker 1: sell transmission lines that need to be built, they take
Speaker 1: about five years together. So by the time you plan
Speaker 1: for a transmission grade offshore today, it won't be working
Speaker 1: for you for your clean power plan by twenty thirty.
Speaker 1: So what is the government doing to try and speed
Speaker 1: up construction when there isn't public opposition to those projects?
Speaker 4: So we have a plan in this country that predates
Speaker 4: me doing this job, has been developed already and needs
Speaker 4: to get through the planning system in some shape or form.
Speaker 4: I'm sure they'll be changes to that plan with they're minor.
Speaker 4: And just to make that point, this is the story
Speaker 4: I wish more people knew, and I'm going to make
Speaker 4: sure that everyone hears it. We have now a really
Speaker 4: good piece of analysis that shows us that there are
Speaker 4: eighty eight projects.
Speaker 3: We need network works, as we call them.
Speaker 4: Some of those are links of cable, some of them
Speaker 4: are substations, converted stations, eighty eight of them which deliver
Speaker 4: us the per system that we could build by twenty
Speaker 4: thirty that would be very very clean. Indeed, so that
Speaker 4: the sort of network that we require of the eighty
Speaker 4: of them are essential for that twenty thirty target. They
Speaker 4: are already in an advanced state. So we will build
Speaker 4: those projects and support the transmission owners to get them
Speaker 4: built by twenty thirty. And I'm confident about that because
Speaker 4: they are ready to go, and there are armies of
Speaker 4: people ready now to get going on that. So I
Speaker 4: think this is the reason I am optimistic about it,
Speaker 4: because if you can build that kind of network, connect
Speaker 4: to it the generation that we need, and do one
Speaker 4: more thing, which is where I think we are being
Speaker 4: genuinely ambitious and might say radical, which is to go
Speaker 4: into the queue of projects waiting to connect to the
Speaker 4: grid and actually curate it, so you know, connect the
Speaker 4: projects that we know are ready and which deliver a
Speaker 4: strategically what we need for twenty thirty. Doing that kind
Speaker 4: of surgery to the grid. Q the support of NISO
Speaker 4: in this country is the other thing that we've done
Speaker 4: with that, and essentially that allows me then to bring
Speaker 4: on the generation the storage projects that we know we
Speaker 4: can have on the system by twenty thirty connected to
Speaker 4: that grid that we're going to build. Now, that is
Speaker 4: a story of building it to time that we will
Speaker 4: also want to tell other countries around the world that
Speaker 4: we have done, because that will overturn decades of inertia,
Speaker 4: which is a term you shouldn't use in the power system,
Speaker 4: but decades of decades of what we would like some
Speaker 4: inertia in the persistem definitely, But that is a brilliant story.
Speaker 4: It's a far better story to tell than you know,
Speaker 4: the latest ambitious goal for twenty fifty that we're setting,
Speaker 4: because we're actually getting on with building stuff now and
Speaker 4: that is I think going to need to be the
Speaker 4: challenge that every other country faces into too.
Speaker 1: So when last year we spoke, you were heading the
Speaker 1: Climate Change Committee.
Speaker 2: You were an independent watchdog.
Speaker 1: You could look at the government and tell them what
Speaker 1: they're getting right and what they're getting wrong. Now you
Speaker 1: are in government and you know Labor Party was very
Speaker 1: ambitious on climate when it was in the opposition. That
Speaker 1: messaging has certainly become mixed over the six months that
Speaker 1: they've been around. Right, we heard from Rachel Reeves who
Speaker 1: wants to build the third runway on Heathrow but also
Speaker 1: expand airports around the country, which has been criticized by
Speaker 1: environmental groups. There are rumors that you know, Starmer might
Speaker 1: not oppose the extraction of oil and gas in the
Speaker 1: Nazia at Rosebank or Jackdaw. When this government downplays the
Speaker 1: bold action that's needed on climate, doesn't that make your.
Speaker 2: Job harder and how are you going to achieve your mission?
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think as a government we are downplaying
Speaker 4: the importance of our claim objectives. And you can use
Speaker 4: the word but I mean again, I'll go back to
Speaker 4: what I said earlier. I think the challenge is to
Speaker 4: get stuff done on this. I mean, the best possible
Speaker 4: response to the critics to say that you've walked away
Speaker 4: from climate objectives, to say no, we're actually doing it.
Speaker 4: You know, on Heathrow, for example, there is room to
Speaker 4: manage he throw with under a carbon budget. Ed Miliband
Speaker 4: has said just that. So we are maintaining commitment to
Speaker 4: our legal goals here. I don't doubt it becomes more
Speaker 4: challenging as you bring more emissions into one setor you've
Speaker 4: got to work harder somewhere else.
Speaker 3: But that's the point of a carbon budget.
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm very sure there's a government still
Speaker 4: committed to climate. I wouldn't do the show otherwise. Funnily enough,
Speaker 4: I'm also committed to climate. I'm absolutely sure Ed Miliband
Speaker 4: is too. I think interestingly, the Prime Minister is the
Speaker 4: other strong advocate for climate. He's had two very successful
Speaker 4: visits to a cop now speaks really eloquently on the
Speaker 4: need to do all this and I think sees the
Speaker 4: opportunity for global leadership on climate. So every decision we
Speaker 4: take as a government is measured against that and we're ambitious,
Speaker 4: but mainly that ambition needs to be expressed through or
Speaker 4: desire to get stuff delivered.
Speaker 1: Now. I think so last question a global question, because
Speaker 1: you are saying that if you agree that the global
Speaker 1: consensus on climate cannot be taken for granted, there are
Speaker 1: certainly big economies starting with the US that are starting
Speaker 1: to pull away from climate commitments. So you hear noises
Speaker 1: from Argentina, from Russia, from New Zealand, of all places.
Speaker 1: There is a vacuum that is being created right now
Speaker 1: and it's getting stronger as we go into COP thirty
Speaker 1: later this year for real leadership on climate. Do you
Speaker 1: think the UK can fill that and how exactly?
Speaker 3: I do think that.
Speaker 4: I don't think we can entirely fill it, And of
Speaker 4: course I regret what's happening in other countries. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's the US decision to pull out of Paris is
Speaker 4: something that is course we regret that. I mean, you
Speaker 4: need the bigger the club, the better. But you have
Speaker 4: to hope. I suppose, and I don't know if it's
Speaker 4: just that. I don't know if it's a hope or
Speaker 4: a prediction that over the next periar it will be
Speaker 4: the technology that the advances and the fact that the
Speaker 4: fundamental economics of the clean transition take hold. That's where
Speaker 4: I think we can show leadership, so our willingness to
Speaker 4: do difficult things to build that infrastructure that we talked about,
Speaker 4: to stay committed to a clean power system that is
Speaker 4: going to be dominated by renewables.
Speaker 3: That's the fantastic story for us to.
Speaker 4: Tell you, and as we build that out, I hope
Speaker 4: we're also to show the benefits of that. The non
Speaker 4: climate benefits of that system are in a sense where
Speaker 4: I think we deliver the most obvious leadership.
Speaker 3: We can say we did this for lots of reasons.
Speaker 4: It happened to benefit the climate, but it brought a
Speaker 4: host of benefits beyond that to the country, and in
Speaker 4: the end it becomes irresistible. I mean, I think we're
Speaker 4: on the bus now with these technologies. The question is
Speaker 4: only how quickly we travel.
Speaker 3: And I'm extremely.
Speaker 4: Happy for the UK to take a lead on that
Speaker 4: for the next few years. And I'd like to demonstrate
Speaker 4: that we're doing the right stuff because we're going to
Speaker 4: regret it. Others will regret it if they don't fall
Speaker 4: a suit. Thank you, Chris, thank.
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