1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am UKTUA thrated this week the 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: UK's big bet. I read a lot of headlines about 3 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: climate change and I know you do too. Together they 4 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: paint a dire picture because climate impacts are growing and 5 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: wore leaders are stepping back from bold action needed to 6 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: tackle climate change. It's something that we talk about on 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: this show with some frequency. But last week I saw 8 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: something that bucked the trend. The UK submitted new climate 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: goals for twenty thirty five to the United Nations, and 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: they are among the boldest and most ambitious in the world. 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: The UK has long been a climate leader. It created 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: the first climate change law for a large economy all 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: the way back in two thousand and eight. It built 14 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: an independent watchdog in the Climate Change Committee. It's twenty 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: thirty five goal, we'll see an eighty one percent reduction 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: in greenhouse gas emissions relative to nineteen ninety levels, and 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: now it has a plan to reach clean power by 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: twenty thirty So how is it that the UK is 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: making big bets when everybody else is stepping back. The 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: best person to help us understand that is Chris Stark. 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: He used to run the Climate Change Committee and now 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: runs the newly created mission controlled Task Force for Clean Power. 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: He is the Labor government's man to make sure that 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: the UK reaches ninety five percent clean power by twenty thirty. 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: It's a tough goal, and even tougher when you're trying 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: to do it while reducing energy prices. But even as 27 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: Chris focuses on this ambitious goal, Labor's leaders are sending 28 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: mixed signals. They want to open new runways and expand 29 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: airports across the UK, including at Heathrow. They might even 30 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: sign off on new oil fields in the Nazia. All 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: of that is going to add complication to Chris's job, 32 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: so we had a lot to talk about. I spoke 33 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: with Chris at the British Library in London at the 34 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: Energy Transition Acceleration Forum curated by the Carbon Trust. Welcome 35 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: to the forum and welcome to the Zero Podcast again. 36 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: Chris. 37 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: It's nice to be back with you again. Asha. 38 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Now let's start with the big picture before we get 39 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: to the goals that you are going to have to 40 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: achieve while you're working for the government. We spoke about 41 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: a year ago and you at that time told me 42 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: that the climate census in the UK cannot be taken 43 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: for granted. 44 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: Since then, Donald Trump is back in the White House. 45 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: The typically climate forward labor government has been at times 46 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: deprioritizing decarbonization. 47 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: So would it be fair. 48 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: To say that now the climate consensus globally cannot be 49 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: taken for granted? And what should climate forward leaders like 50 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: you and many of those in the audience be doing 51 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: at this time. 52 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 4: So I stand by my comments to you a year ago. 53 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 4: It's amazing, that's only a year. Actually, that's incredible. It's 54 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 4: been quite a year. The climate consensus is not something 55 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 4: you should ever take for granted. And the best example 56 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 4: of that is that in the last year we've seen 57 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 4: some of the most extreme weather events that we've ever seen, 58 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 4: probably the most extreme year ever in terms. 59 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 3: Of recorded history. 60 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 4: But it doesn't connect automatically to desire globally, from at 61 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 4: least from our politicians globally, to do more on climate mitigation. 62 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: Interesting question whether it might lead to more of a 63 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 4: focus on client adaptation and resilience, I said, Rale. I 64 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 4: suspect it will, although I suspect we'll probably end up 65 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 4: calling it something else. But I sort of feel I 66 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 4: want to challenge some things that you said. I mean 67 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 4: I do think we are a climate forward government here 68 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 4: in the UK. And the difference I suppose is that 69 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 4: we are not in the world of setting you know, 70 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 4: new targets, only that we actually want to demonstrate that 71 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 4: you can deliver against those targets. So the reason I 72 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 4: do this job is because fundamentally, having been the person 73 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 4: that advised on the targets for the country for the 74 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 4: last well I've been at this there for more than 75 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 4: ten years. If someone offers you the chance to come 76 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 4: in and help deliver them, I feel you've got to 77 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 4: sort of take that up. So the Clean Power a 78 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 4: bit of this is just stage one, right, it's sort 79 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 4: of base camp. And once we're at base camp, we 80 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 4: can start sending the mountain. But that mountain is going 81 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 4: to be largely driven by electrifying our economy, as I'm sure. 82 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 3: We'll discuss this in this discussion, but cleaning up. 83 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 4: The power system is I think the very best way 84 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 4: for us to demonstrate that as a government we are 85 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 4: even more committed to our climate objectives because we're focused 86 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 4: now on delivering them. 87 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: So the Clean Power Mission, and let's define it, because 88 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: it's ninety five percent clean power and five percent on 89 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: abated gas. 90 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: It's been more than six months since you started. 91 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: One of the important pieces of advice I ever got 92 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: at the start of my career from my Linel manager 93 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: was that you know, take six months to understand the job, 94 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: but by the end of it, you should know what 95 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: you're doing. 96 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: So how confident are you? That's how you confident? 97 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: Are you that the UK can reach the clean power 98 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: goal by twenty thirty and what have you done so 99 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: far to reach that conclusion? 100 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: So I am confident. 101 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 4: I mean I'm not recklessly confident, but I am confident 102 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 4: because I think I want to just make this point 103 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 4: that what we've committed to do is really right on 104 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 4: the edge of what we think is possible. So I 105 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 4: acknowledge that we call it a mission for a reason. 106 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 4: It is an actual mission, and just to make the 107 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 4: point that you know, governments can have a few missions, 108 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 4: they can't have hundreds. And I think it is really 109 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 4: important that we selected this one as as something that 110 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 4: has the support of the whole government right up to 111 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 4: the Prime Minister'd say it also has the support of 112 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 4: other parts of government in the UK as well, including 113 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 4: notably our devolved governments. You're right to define it so 114 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 4: what we've done in the first six months, we have 115 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 4: not wasted. I feel I'm coming up for seven months now. 116 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 4: I don't feel I've wasted a single day in that time. 117 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: Even over Christmas. We have moved lightning fast to try 118 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 4: and define what we mean quickly and then move into 119 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 4: quite an exciting period where we also define the policies 120 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 4: that we think will be needed to deliver it, to 121 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 4: allow me to start this year moving into genuine delivery mode. 122 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 3: Now, let me just. 123 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 4: Briefly cover those things. So the challenge of clean power. 124 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: The reason I do this job is because when I 125 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: was at the Climate Change Committee, I spent a very 126 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 4: happy period of my life working with some of the 127 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 4: world's best analysts looking at how you could decarbonize a 128 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 4: whole economy by twenty fifty. The last time we did 129 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 4: this was for the sixth Carbon Budget Assessment. We're about 130 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 4: to see the CCC's seventh Carbon Budget Assessment. 131 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 3: I'll be a keen reader of that when it comes. 132 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 4: But last time round we did something that I don't 133 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 4: expect the SECC to do this time, which we had 134 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: five different scenarios, all of them complete scenarios with integrity 135 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 4: within them, and they're all very different by design because 136 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 4: we wanted to it was the first time the country 137 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 4: had a net zero target. We wanted to demonstrate there 138 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 4: was more than one way to skin a cat, so 139 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 4: we looked at five different ways to hit that goal. 140 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 4: One thing you can do when you've done something like 141 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 4: that is look across the five and you can see 142 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 4: there's some common factors to those scenarios, quite a few 143 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 4: actually common facts is one of them is that there 144 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 4: is a point when you can see you've got a 145 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 4: clean power system. But the second points that is that 146 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 4: you shouldn't be overly purist about what that means. So 147 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 4: the kind of fundamental of what we're trying to do 148 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: in the UK is based on that analysis, and we've 149 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 4: basically asked our Energy system operator it's called NISO in 150 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 4: the UK, to give us their view of how you 151 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 4: fulfill a target like that. Basically in a world where 152 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 4: we expect to have gas in the power system, right, 153 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 4: so we are in a very unique moment where we 154 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 4: can use gas as a backup, flexible backup and progressively 155 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 4: reduce the amount of gas that we're burning each year 156 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 4: in the power system to the point where by twenty thirty. 157 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 4: End of twenty thirty, we're going to take the whole year, 158 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 4: but by the end of twenty thirty we might need it. 159 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 4: We can get that belief five percent in that year, 160 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 4: and I've called that herculean. 161 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: I stand by that. 162 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 4: That was what I said before I come into this job, 163 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 4: and it's that sort of effort that you need to 164 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 4: make it happen. Now we should talk about all the 165 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: things that need to be on to do that, but 166 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 4: we define that quickly and then produce an action plan 167 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 4: around that, and here we are at the start of 168 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 4: the year now implementing it. 169 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: So the accent action plan is detailed, that's available for 170 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: anybody to read. 171 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: There are some big numbers in there. 172 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: There's two times as much onshore wind that needs to 173 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: be built by twenty thirty, three times as much solar, 174 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: lots of more energy storage, a lot more transmission, five 175 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: times as much flexibility on the grid on the demand side, 176 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: which we should talk about. But the main thing you 177 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: take from it is that you're going to have to 178 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: build for a rapidly changing system, and that means it's 179 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: going to be expensive. The estimate is about two hundred 180 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: billion pounds of investment going towards the mission towards decarbonizing 181 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: the grid, but also expanding the grid. And given the 182 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: financial pressures that the government is facing, how do you 183 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: think that investment can be secured and how much of 184 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: that will the government be on the hook for. 185 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 3: So let me again challenge a word that you use. 186 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 4: It expensive is a word that's doing a lot of 187 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 4: it's doing a lot of heavy lifting in that question, 188 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 4: and I don't regard it as expensive. So let me 189 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 4: briefly explain why I think that we need to get 190 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 4: ourselves what we're only trying to do here. Yes, I'm 191 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 4: trying to clean up the power system and tremendously important 192 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 4: that we do that. But I think even more importantly 193 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 4: than that, we are preparing for a period after twenty 194 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 4: thirty when we're going to need to seriously grow the 195 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 4: power system because we expect the end use of transport 196 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 4: uses and the industrial uses and domestic heating and cooling 197 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 4: to become electric. And we're in a period now where 198 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 4: the demand for electricity before twenty thirty is probably fairly flat. 199 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 4: So if you can clean up the power system quickly, 200 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 4: you will be in the right place to then grow 201 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 4: the power system after that. So that expense, as you 202 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 4: called it, is basically a down payment on that. We 203 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 4: are investing in a clean power system that we know 204 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 4: we're going to need into the twenty thirties. Now, the 205 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 4: mission twenty thirty is enormous challenge. We've got another one 206 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 4: after that, hopefully at a more measurable measured pace, to 207 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: grow the power system, probably by fifty percent, possibly even 208 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 4: more than that, might even double by twenty fifty. So 209 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 4: we are basically getting ahead of that by encouraging that investment. 210 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 4: And that two hundred billion you referred to is what 211 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 4: happens if you roll up the investments in storage, in generation, 212 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 4: and in networks that we think we need for twenty thirty. 213 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 4: That prepares us and that is not a cost directly 214 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 4: to the consumer, at least not initially, so we will 215 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 4: recover those costs from the consumer or from the taxpayer. 216 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: These are choices over a very long period. 217 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 4: So we're in a moment where if you walk with 218 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 4: me on this, we can get the investment done early. 219 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 4: We can benefit in terms of the benefit to the 220 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 4: economy from that investment. We buy ourselves an enormous amount 221 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 4: of additional energy security with that investment, and the costs 222 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 4: to the consumer come after that over a very long 223 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 4: period match the game a reduction in the costs from 224 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 4: not burning fossil fuels in the power system. So if 225 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 4: we play our cards right, bring that all together, we 226 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 4: get an enormous economic return, we get a huge climate benefit, 227 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 4: we get energy security, and we don't have that cost 228 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 4: to the consumer that lots of people worry about. And 229 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 4: I am confident that can be done. I'm also confident 230 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 4: that the kind of power system you get at the 231 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,359 Speaker 4: end of that, with long term contracts for renewables particularly, 232 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,599 Speaker 4: brings down what we call the wholesale price of electricity 233 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 4: and translating that into a lower cost for the consumer 234 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: is a really nice challenge to have. 235 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: I think so Clean Power Mission obviously says on the 236 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,239 Speaker 1: tin what you're doing, but if you read the announcement, 237 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: it's clean power mission with cheaper electricity prices. Right, It's 238 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: not just about decarbonization, it's about lowering electricity prices. 239 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: And now we've seen in. 240 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: Elections around the world that when governments don't address these 241 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: pocketbook issues around energy prices, they get booted out. In 242 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: my own analysis, I have not seen a single country 243 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: where there is high electricity prices and high electrification rate 244 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: or just the absolute amount. And so isn't there a 245 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: risk in the plan that you've laid out, which is 246 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: going to require to build a lot more gas power 247 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: plants as a way of managing the intermittency that comes 248 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 1: with renewables. 249 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: Of course there's storage that will be included. But isn't 250 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: there a risk with even. 251 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: More gas power plants even if the reliance on gas 252 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: is going down, that the prices of electricity may rise. 253 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: The UK has among the highest electricity prices already, they 254 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: could become costlier. How will you deal with that scenario? 255 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 4: So I am sure we can bring down costs to 256 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 4: the consumer. I don't know exactly what the price of 257 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 4: electricity will be in twenty thirty because a lot of 258 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 4: it is so dependent on globally traded gas. And actually 259 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 4: that's the secret here is that at the moment, even 260 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 4: though we have very extensive power system renewables, power system, 261 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 4: gas sets the price very often in the wholesale market, 262 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 4: and that price of gas, but in the last few 263 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 4: years has been at historic high, quite astonishing levels over 264 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 4: the last two or three years, and it continues to 265 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 4: be the reason why eltricity prices are high in this country. 266 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 4: I don't know what's going to happen to the gas 267 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 4: price if the gas price fell, so too with eltricity prices, 268 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: But in a sense, I don't want to be wedded 269 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 4: to that uncertainty any longer. 270 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: So there's two aspects to the energy security point. 271 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 4: I think one is the actual energy security that comes 272 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 4: from having some homegrown power, especially from renewables, also some 273 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 4: nuclear in. 274 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 3: There with storage. 275 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: You know. 276 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 4: That idea of being more self sufficient that I could put 277 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 4: it that way, and less dependent on those goal markets 278 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 4: is one aspect of energy security. The other one is 279 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 4: the energy insecurity that comes to the consumer from the 280 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 4: requirement to be on this you know, very unpredictable gas 281 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 4: price roller coaster. And we buy ourselves quite a lot 282 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 4: of insurance by doing what we're trying to do with 283 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 4: the clean power to the clean power goal. And the 284 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,479 Speaker 4: crucial point is that if you want to displace gas, 285 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 4: you've got two things to do. One is to build 286 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 4: out more of those long term renewable contracts and clean 287 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 4: power contracts that we will sign over the next few 288 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 4: years and reduce the points over the course of the 289 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: year when gas sets the price, and that's essentially what 290 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 4: we're doing. And the other thing that we can do 291 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: is bring on a set of technologies that provide a 292 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 4: similar service to a gas fire power station when you 293 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 4: need it, and they are typically the sort of low 294 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 4: carbon flex that you need in the power system or 295 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: long duration energy storage technologies. So those moments when you 296 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 4: absolutely have to turn to gas at the moment, and 297 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 4: the reason we are able to accommodate renewals is because 298 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 4: we have. 299 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: That gas fleet. We also could do with moving to 300 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 3: a new set of technologies that sort of displace the 301 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 3: market power of gas at that moment, and we will 302 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 3: do that too. So there's lots of. 303 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 4: Reasons to think that the consumer price can come down, 304 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 4: but you've got to deploy these things at scale quickly 305 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 4: to see that happen. And that two hundred billion that 306 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: you referred to is but north of forty billion pounds 307 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 4: of capex each year between now and the end of 308 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 4: twenty thirty is the investment in that grid that supports 309 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 4: that and those technologies, and that is the secret. Now, 310 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 4: let me just agree with the premise of the question. 311 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 4: You're absolutely right to say that our success depends not 312 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 4: just on building stuff, but also in the consumer seeing 313 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 4: the benefit of that. I think there's a broader story 314 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: beyond just consumer prices about the economy and people in 315 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 4: the communities hosting infrastructure scenes and benefit from that too, 316 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 4: And you might extend that into of public consent for 317 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 4: these things. These are the things that keep me awake 318 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 4: at night, so I'm restless to get that sorted. 319 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: Those consumer issues. 320 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 4: I would really like to see us move to where 321 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 4: we were seeing the electricity price in particular come down, 322 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 4: because the rest of the story on decarbonization rests on 323 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 4: a cheaper electricity price. 324 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: Ultimately, if you want people to take a. 325 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 4: Heat pump, if you want people to move to electric car, 326 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 4: if you want industries to move to electrified technologies, the 327 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 4: best possible policy is a cheaper electricity prize. 328 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: After the break, more from a conversation with Chris Stock 329 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: And if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a 330 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts 331 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: or Spotify. It helps other listeners find the show. In 332 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: trying to get to cheaper electricity prices, one thing that 333 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: you have to do a lot of is to build 334 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: transmission so that you are not paying to shut down 335 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: wind power in the north when there is demand in 336 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: the south. Last year those payments added up to one 337 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: point eight billion pounds from the Great Operator just to 338 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: shut wind power in the North down. But there is 339 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: a lot of opposition to transmission, just to building in general. 340 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: How do you maintain support for the transition and for 341 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: building when people are not willing to allow for building 342 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: or you know, there's anger being stoked to try and 343 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: stop transmission from being built. 344 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 4: So a few things on this. The first thing is 345 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 4: we've got to do genuine consertation for those communities. So 346 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 4: I mean, this is not a plan that will ride 347 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 4: roughshod over those communities, but there are going to be 348 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 4: some difficult decisions I had about location of infrastructure, so 349 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 4: I don't think I conduct that. I would say though 350 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 4: as a country as a whole, what holds us back 351 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: is the fact that we haven't built stuff quickly enough. 352 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 4: So my feeling, certainly from the ten years plus I've 353 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 4: been looking at this, is that there's a frustration commonly 354 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 4: expressed that we just haven't gone and done the job. 355 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 4: So the sort of top line here is we're going 356 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 4: to build things in this country, and that is the 357 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 4: measure of success. The barriers to that are actually pretty extensive, 358 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 4: and they're often barriers that the government itself puts in place. 359 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: Some of them are really justified, some of them less. 360 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 4: So we need to push through those barriers and make 361 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 4: sure that we have the minimum of delay in getting 362 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 4: infrastructure in the right place of the country that we need. 363 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 4: But the kind of next part of this, I suppose 364 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: is that if you buy that idea that we're going 365 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 4: to build it, I think you've also got to take 366 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: people with you on the value of doing this in 367 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 4: the round. And the ultimate test of whether wee I'm 368 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 4: successful or not is whether people see the value of 369 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 4: the power system that we're creating, either in their bills 370 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 4: or in the energy security that I talked about. And 371 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 4: the very final thing, I'll make it very quickly. There 372 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 4: is a story out there. You do read it that 373 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 4: we're somehow going to carpet the country and pylons and 374 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 4: wind farms. 375 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: Absolutely not true. We are not going to do that. 376 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 4: So I think the other part of the story is 377 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 4: bringing some rational discussion to that. It's actually quite that's 378 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: very few parts of the country that will see development. 379 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 4: Most of the grid investment is offshore. So I think 380 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 4: we can do this in a way that sort of 381 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: by support as long as we are truthful and honest 382 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 4: than direct about what we're trying to do and the 383 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 4: impacts that will bring. 384 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: So global electricity demand rise, as we saw is about 385 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: three percent expected to be in countries like India and China, 386 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: they've seen seven to ten percent electricity demand rise for 387 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: now over two decades. 388 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: And they know how to build and the UK does not, as. 389 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: You've talked about, even if we take the public opposition out, 390 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: so offshore building for example, you know the North to 391 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: sell transmission lines that need to be built, they take 392 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: about five years together. So by the time you plan 393 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: for a transmission grade offshore today, it won't be working 394 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: for you for your clean power plan by twenty thirty. 395 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: So what is the government doing to try and speed 396 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: up construction when there isn't public opposition to those projects? 397 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 4: So we have a plan in this country that predates 398 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: me doing this job, has been developed already and needs 399 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 4: to get through the planning system in some shape or form. 400 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 4: I'm sure they'll be changes to that plan with they're minor. 401 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 4: And just to make that point, this is the story 402 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 4: I wish more people knew, and I'm going to make 403 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 4: sure that everyone hears it. We have now a really 404 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 4: good piece of analysis that shows us that there are 405 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 4: eighty eight projects. 406 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 3: We need network works, as we call them. 407 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 4: Some of those are links of cable, some of them 408 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 4: are substations, converted stations, eighty eight of them which deliver 409 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 4: us the per system that we could build by twenty 410 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 4: thirty that would be very very clean. Indeed, so that 411 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 4: the sort of network that we require of the eighty 412 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 4: of them are essential for that twenty thirty target. They 413 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 4: are already in an advanced state. So we will build 414 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 4: those projects and support the transmission owners to get them 415 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 4: built by twenty thirty. And I'm confident about that because 416 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 4: they are ready to go, and there are armies of 417 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 4: people ready now to get going on that. So I 418 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 4: think this is the reason I am optimistic about it, 419 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 4: because if you can build that kind of network, connect 420 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 4: to it the generation that we need, and do one 421 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 4: more thing, which is where I think we are being 422 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 4: genuinely ambitious and might say radical, which is to go 423 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 4: into the queue of projects waiting to connect to the 424 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 4: grid and actually curate it, so you know, connect the 425 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 4: projects that we know are ready and which deliver a 426 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 4: strategically what we need for twenty thirty. Doing that kind 427 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 4: of surgery to the grid. Q the support of NISO 428 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 4: in this country is the other thing that we've done 429 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 4: with that, and essentially that allows me then to bring 430 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 4: on the generation the storage projects that we know we 431 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 4: can have on the system by twenty thirty connected to 432 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 4: that grid that we're going to build. Now, that is 433 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 4: a story of building it to time that we will 434 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 4: also want to tell other countries around the world that 435 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 4: we have done, because that will overturn decades of inertia, 436 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 4: which is a term you shouldn't use in the power system, 437 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 4: but decades of decades of what we would like some 438 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 4: inertia in the persistem definitely, But that is a brilliant story. 439 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 4: It's a far better story to tell than you know, 440 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 4: the latest ambitious goal for twenty fifty that we're setting, 441 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 4: because we're actually getting on with building stuff now and 442 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 4: that is I think going to need to be the 443 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 4: challenge that every other country faces into too. 444 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: So when last year we spoke, you were heading the 445 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: Climate Change Committee. 446 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: You were an independent watchdog. 447 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: You could look at the government and tell them what 448 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: they're getting right and what they're getting wrong. Now you 449 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: are in government and you know Labor Party was very 450 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: ambitious on climate when it was in the opposition. That 451 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: messaging has certainly become mixed over the six months that 452 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: they've been around. Right, we heard from Rachel Reeves who 453 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: wants to build the third runway on Heathrow but also 454 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: expand airports around the country, which has been criticized by 455 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: environmental groups. There are rumors that you know, Starmer might 456 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: not oppose the extraction of oil and gas in the 457 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: Nazia at Rosebank or Jackdaw. When this government downplays the 458 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: bold action that's needed on climate, doesn't that make your. 459 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: Job harder and how are you going to achieve your mission? 460 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think as a government we are downplaying 461 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: the importance of our claim objectives. And you can use 462 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 4: the word but I mean again, I'll go back to 463 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 4: what I said earlier. I think the challenge is to 464 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 4: get stuff done on this. I mean, the best possible 465 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 4: response to the critics to say that you've walked away 466 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 4: from climate objectives, to say no, we're actually doing it. 467 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 4: You know, on Heathrow, for example, there is room to 468 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 4: manage he throw with under a carbon budget. Ed Miliband 469 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 4: has said just that. So we are maintaining commitment to 470 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 4: our legal goals here. I don't doubt it becomes more 471 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 4: challenging as you bring more emissions into one setor you've 472 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 4: got to work harder somewhere else. 473 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 3: But that's the point of a carbon budget. 474 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 4: And you know, I'm very sure there's a government still 475 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 4: committed to climate. I wouldn't do the show otherwise. Funnily enough, 476 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 4: I'm also committed to climate. I'm absolutely sure Ed Miliband 477 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 4: is too. I think interestingly, the Prime Minister is the 478 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 4: other strong advocate for climate. He's had two very successful 479 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 4: visits to a cop now speaks really eloquently on the 480 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 4: need to do all this and I think sees the 481 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 4: opportunity for global leadership on climate. So every decision we 482 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 4: take as a government is measured against that and we're ambitious, 483 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 4: but mainly that ambition needs to be expressed through or 484 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: desire to get stuff delivered. 485 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: Now. I think so last question a global question, because 486 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: you are saying that if you agree that the global 487 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: consensus on climate cannot be taken for granted, there are 488 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: certainly big economies starting with the US that are starting 489 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: to pull away from climate commitments. So you hear noises 490 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: from Argentina, from Russia, from New Zealand, of all places. 491 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: There is a vacuum that is being created right now 492 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: and it's getting stronger as we go into COP thirty 493 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: later this year for real leadership on climate. Do you 494 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: think the UK can fill that and how exactly? 495 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 3: I do think that. 496 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 4: I don't think we can entirely fill it, And of 497 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 4: course I regret what's happening in other countries. I mean, 498 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 4: it's the US decision to pull out of Paris is 499 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 4: something that is course we regret that. I mean, you 500 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: need the bigger the club, the better. But you have 501 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 4: to hope. I suppose, and I don't know if it's 502 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 4: just that. I don't know if it's a hope or 503 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 4: a prediction that over the next periar it will be 504 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 4: the technology that the advances and the fact that the 505 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 4: fundamental economics of the clean transition take hold. That's where 506 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 4: I think we can show leadership, so our willingness to 507 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 4: do difficult things to build that infrastructure that we talked about, 508 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 4: to stay committed to a clean power system that is 509 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 4: going to be dominated by renewables. 510 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: That's the fantastic story for us to. 511 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 4: Tell you, and as we build that out, I hope 512 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 4: we're also to show the benefits of that. The non 513 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 4: climate benefits of that system are in a sense where 514 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 4: I think we deliver the most obvious leadership. 515 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 3: We can say we did this for lots of reasons. 516 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 4: It happened to benefit the climate, but it brought a 517 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 4: host of benefits beyond that to the country, and in 518 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 4: the end it becomes irresistible. I mean, I think we're 519 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 4: on the bus now with these technologies. The question is 520 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 4: only how quickly we travel. 521 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 3: And I'm extremely. 522 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 4: Happy for the UK to take a lead on that 523 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 4: for the next few years. And I'd like to demonstrate 524 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 4: that we're doing the right stuff because we're going to 525 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 4: regret it. Others will regret it if they don't fall 526 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 4: a suit. Thank you, Chris, thank. 527 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: You Action, thank you for listening to zero. And now 528 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: for the sound of the week. That's the sound of 529 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: a live electric cable being repaired by workers in a 530 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: helicopter wearing Faraday Cage suits. If you liked this episode, 531 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 532 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 533 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: friend or with someone who's worried about Pylon's marring the Skyline. 534 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: You can get in touch at zero pod at bloomberg 535 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: dot net. Zero's producer is might Leraw. Bloomberg's head of 536 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: podcast is Sage Powerman, and head of Talk is Brendan 537 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: newman Our. The music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks 538 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: to Will Mathis, arn Chen, Amon Farat and Jessica Big. 539 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: Thanks also to the British Library. I'm the Common Trust. 540 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: I am Akshatrati Back soon.