1 00:00:15,536 --> 00:00:24,256 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Grace Cummings, thank you for showing up and for 2 00:00:24,296 --> 00:00:24,776 Speaker 1: doing this. 3 00:00:25,036 --> 00:00:25,616 Speaker 2: I showed up. 4 00:00:25,756 --> 00:00:27,936 Speaker 1: And for agreeing to play something. 5 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:30,756 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 6 00:00:31,256 --> 00:00:33,466 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very honored to have you. And you said 7 00:00:33,706 --> 00:00:37,406 Speaker 1: you're going to play a song which is not on 8 00:00:37,426 --> 00:00:40,166 Speaker 1: your new album, Blood Horse, but you would have liked 9 00:00:40,186 --> 00:00:42,166 Speaker 1: it to have been. Yeah, I mean. 10 00:00:43,306 --> 00:00:48,226 Speaker 2: I think I chose this song because, yeah, I mean, 11 00:00:48,266 --> 00:00:50,146 Speaker 2: I've got my guitar with me. There are two songs 12 00:00:50,246 --> 00:00:55,416 Speaker 2: on the album that I play guitar on and I've 13 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:57,876 Speaker 2: been playing them for a lot of press. And this 14 00:00:58,116 --> 00:01:00,936 Speaker 2: one is very much a part of the album and 15 00:01:01,016 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 2: very much a part of the making of it. I 16 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:11,646 Speaker 2: wrote it when I was in Topanga. And I'm back now. 17 00:01:13,566 --> 00:01:15,566 Speaker 1: Topanga here in Los Angeles, where. 18 00:01:15,446 --> 00:01:20,586 Speaker 2: You were recording. Yes, recording with Jonathan, and it just 19 00:01:20,626 --> 00:01:24,056 Speaker 2: reminds me of that time. And it's not on the album, 20 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:25,516 Speaker 2: but it's not going anywhere, you know what I mean? 21 00:01:25,536 --> 00:01:27,316 Speaker 1: Oh, great, great. What's it called? 22 00:01:27,736 --> 00:01:30,556 Speaker 2: It's called Judy's Pool. All right, shall I go? 23 00:01:31,276 --> 00:01:31,726 Speaker 1: You shall. 24 00:01:54,736 --> 00:01:55,576 Speaker 2: I just want to. 25 00:01:55,556 --> 00:02:06,226 Speaker 3: Swim in Judy's pool Be the exception to her rules. 26 00:02:09,296 --> 00:02:10,596 Speaker 4: I don't wanna. 27 00:02:10,236 --> 00:02:11,756 Speaker 1: Be a hot. 28 00:02:11,556 --> 00:02:21,446 Speaker 3: Girl It's not the mark I want on. 29 00:02:20,346 --> 00:02:22,486 Speaker 5: The world. 30 00:02:24,426 --> 00:02:33,056 Speaker 3: I just wanna leave something behind That took the trouble 31 00:02:33,116 --> 00:02:49,866 Speaker 3: right from my mind I'm a fucking joke, it's true 32 00:02:53,726 --> 00:02:59,246 Speaker 3: But I just want to be a joke for you 33 00:03:01,086 --> 00:03:08,936 Speaker 3: The way that some people live their lives That weren't 34 00:03:09,056 --> 00:03:18,556 Speaker 3: even given the chance to try Judy was a rebel 35 00:03:18,926 --> 00:03:30,846 Speaker 3: once She said, let him love the fucking cunts And 36 00:03:30,966 --> 00:03:39,716 Speaker 3: even though she's a Topanga girl A voice that draws 37 00:03:39,816 --> 00:04:03,296 Speaker 3: from another world I think I'm going straight to hell 38 00:04:07,786 --> 00:04:16,506 Speaker 3: Even though I've lived so well I'm the clumsier version 39 00:04:16,606 --> 00:04:24,086 Speaker 3: of a great success And I'm on the list. 40 00:04:23,706 --> 00:04:26,086 Speaker 2: As the devil's guest. 41 00:04:29,886 --> 00:04:38,086 Speaker 3: I just wanna swim in Judy's pool I just wanna 42 00:04:38,186 --> 00:04:39,376 Speaker 3: swim in. 43 00:04:39,176 --> 00:04:41,376 Speaker 2: Judy's pool. 44 00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:53,186 Speaker 3: I just wanna swim in Judy's pool I just wanna 45 00:04:53,266 --> 00:05:00,586 Speaker 3: swim in Judy's pool Judy, Judy, Judy. 46 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:07,976 Speaker 1: That's beautiful. 47 00:05:08,256 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 2: Thank you. 48 00:05:08,856 --> 00:05:17,156 Speaker 1: Oh, man. When I first heard you, I still have 49 00:05:17,196 --> 00:05:21,516 Speaker 1: no context for you. So I'm excited to learn more. 50 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:27,436 Speaker 1: But it feels to me like there's a soulfulness to 51 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:29,676 Speaker 1: the way you play, the way you sing, to your 52 00:05:29,716 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 1: songs that used to exist in people like Jackson Brown 53 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:39,926 Speaker 1: or Joni or... um, any number of people, right? Stephen Stills, uh, 54 00:05:39,946 --> 00:05:42,086 Speaker 1: I think at all California people now, but. 55 00:05:42,206 --> 00:05:44,366 Speaker 2: Uh, there's nothing wrong with that. 56 00:05:45,426 --> 00:05:47,786 Speaker 1: It's refreshing and it's, it's really soulful and it's beautiful. 57 00:05:48,206 --> 00:05:49,106 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 58 00:05:49,146 --> 00:05:49,426 Speaker 1: Yeah. 59 00:05:49,586 --> 00:05:50,406 Speaker 2: What a compliment. 60 00:05:50,426 --> 00:05:53,796 Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, so what, what, what did you grow up 61 00:05:53,806 --> 00:05:54,296 Speaker 1: listening to? 62 00:05:54,426 --> 00:05:57,436 Speaker 2: What was, I mean, I grew up listening to a 63 00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:02,416 Speaker 2: lot of stuff. I, I, uh, I was, I am 64 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:08,266 Speaker 2: lucky enough to have parents that rule and love great music. 65 00:06:09,306 --> 00:06:13,166 Speaker 2: But I also was the youngest of three children. 66 00:06:15,746 --> 00:06:18,046 Speaker 1: How young compared to? 67 00:06:18,266 --> 00:06:22,536 Speaker 2: Not very, but I was very much on the outside 68 00:06:22,736 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 2: and a bit of a loner. That's not true. I 69 00:06:26,996 --> 00:06:31,006 Speaker 2: was so much of a loner and kind of still 70 00:06:31,086 --> 00:06:41,406 Speaker 2: am and would rely on my imagination and music and 71 00:06:41,466 --> 00:06:45,616 Speaker 2: stuff like that to keep me company. And, you know, 72 00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:52,596 Speaker 2: that means as you grow older, people, you gravitate towards 73 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:59,066 Speaker 2: other freaks and and um I remember my um like 74 00:06:59,166 --> 00:07:03,166 Speaker 2: my year one teacher I would have been like or 75 00:07:03,186 --> 00:07:06,526 Speaker 2: year two teacher I would have been like six or 76 00:07:06,586 --> 00:07:11,656 Speaker 2: something I was telling her because I would I would 77 00:07:11,746 --> 00:07:18,156 Speaker 2: stay like uh kind of in the classroom at lunchtime 78 00:07:18,336 --> 00:07:20,976 Speaker 2: or you know I didn't have many friends and I 79 00:07:21,016 --> 00:07:23,826 Speaker 2: told her that I liked this band from Australia called 80 00:07:23,866 --> 00:07:30,826 Speaker 2: The Vines. And at lunchtime, she secretly gave me a 81 00:07:31,366 --> 00:07:36,246 Speaker 2: copy of Rolling Stone and was like, I look back 82 00:07:36,306 --> 00:07:38,246 Speaker 2: on it now being like, that's a bit naughty, but 83 00:07:38,306 --> 00:07:41,576 Speaker 2: like that rules because The Vines were in there. And 84 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:44,496 Speaker 2: then I just kind of started collecting things or just 85 00:07:44,536 --> 00:07:48,186 Speaker 2: like I don't know, listening to the radio and taping 86 00:07:48,226 --> 00:07:55,376 Speaker 2: what I liked. But my parents listened to a whole 87 00:07:55,656 --> 00:08:00,936 Speaker 2: range of stuff and a lot of traditional Irish music 88 00:08:01,056 --> 00:08:07,286 Speaker 2: and opera and classical music and then, you know, the classics. 89 00:08:09,086 --> 00:08:10,526 Speaker 2: You know, we all know what that is. 90 00:08:10,546 --> 00:08:11,326 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 91 00:08:11,906 --> 00:08:15,856 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just grows, like, it's something that I 92 00:08:15,936 --> 00:08:22,146 Speaker 2: miss now about discovering music. It's like, you know, to 93 00:08:22,526 --> 00:08:27,186 Speaker 2: show my age, you would, you know, read something that 94 00:08:27,206 --> 00:08:30,036 Speaker 2: you liked about a musician and they would reference this 95 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:32,956 Speaker 2: and then you'd be able to read about them or like, 96 00:08:33,516 --> 00:08:36,276 Speaker 2: you know, find something on the radio. And I, and 97 00:08:36,336 --> 00:08:40,636 Speaker 2: I feel like that's something that I miss in culture today. 98 00:08:40,696 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 2: It's kind of like a, You get told more what 99 00:08:46,516 --> 00:08:53,056 Speaker 2: you like rather than being able to discover it, if 100 00:08:53,096 --> 00:08:53,876 Speaker 2: that makes sense. 101 00:08:54,296 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 1: You built your musical world almost brick by brick. You 102 00:08:57,656 --> 00:08:59,866 Speaker 1: would hear things, have no context for them, but then 103 00:08:59,886 --> 00:09:03,866 Speaker 1: hear an artist say they loved this person. It'd perk 104 00:09:03,886 --> 00:09:06,226 Speaker 1: your ears up. So then you would next... that's that 105 00:09:06,286 --> 00:09:08,746 Speaker 1: thing and sort of start to build the context around 106 00:09:09,126 --> 00:09:10,946 Speaker 1: why you like what you like and why certain things 107 00:09:10,986 --> 00:09:12,026 Speaker 1: sound the way they sound. 108 00:09:12,126 --> 00:09:12,446 Speaker 4: Yeah. 109 00:09:12,466 --> 00:09:15,696 Speaker 1: It would help you sort of build this world of music. Yeah. 110 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 1: That now, and innocently, pretty innocently, you know, whereas now 111 00:09:20,936 --> 00:09:22,036 Speaker 1: you just served things. 112 00:09:22,136 --> 00:09:22,396 Speaker 4: Yeah. 113 00:09:22,496 --> 00:09:24,926 Speaker 2: And it can be so vast as well. I think 114 00:09:24,986 --> 00:09:29,156 Speaker 2: that now, uh, like it's a lot easier for you 115 00:09:29,196 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 2: to be like put into a box and, and there's 116 00:09:32,616 --> 00:09:37,456 Speaker 2: kind of like, um, you know, people are like, what 117 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:39,396 Speaker 2: is your music or what do you like or blah, blah, blah. 118 00:09:39,416 --> 00:09:44,366 Speaker 2: And it's like, there isn't one answer, um, that can, 119 00:09:45,826 --> 00:09:49,506 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like, like it baffles me. 120 00:09:50,406 --> 00:09:54,366 Speaker 2: Like sometimes when it's just like, tell me what you are. 121 00:09:54,406 --> 00:10:00,516 Speaker 2: It's like, Where do you fit in this world? It's 122 00:10:00,556 --> 00:10:04,966 Speaker 2: kind of like, well, everywhere, you know, I don't want 123 00:10:04,986 --> 00:10:08,446 Speaker 2: to fit into one kind of thing, if that makes sense. 124 00:10:08,616 --> 00:10:11,576 Speaker 1: Well, the idea, I mean, I guess that you might 125 00:10:11,616 --> 00:10:14,256 Speaker 1: fit into a certain scene or a certain thing, right? 126 00:10:14,296 --> 00:10:17,586 Speaker 1: And that sort of then pigeonholes how you must look 127 00:10:17,666 --> 00:10:19,786 Speaker 1: or how you must sound and present yourself. And that 128 00:10:19,846 --> 00:10:22,426 Speaker 1: becomes inhibiting. 129 00:10:22,826 --> 00:10:23,126 Speaker 2: Yeah. 130 00:10:23,246 --> 00:10:23,526 Speaker 1: You know? 131 00:10:23,706 --> 00:10:26,386 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think I've struggled with that a little bit, 132 00:10:26,406 --> 00:10:33,026 Speaker 2: trying to, uh like people trying to fit me into 133 00:10:33,066 --> 00:10:37,686 Speaker 2: a scene and not knowing what that is yeah which 134 00:10:37,726 --> 00:10:41,226 Speaker 2: is great but yeah i don't know a lot of 135 00:10:41,546 --> 00:10:44,096 Speaker 2: my answers to questions of like what's your music like 136 00:10:44,146 --> 00:10:45,126 Speaker 2: i was like i. 137 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:49,116 Speaker 1: Don't know well it's beautiful so you start there that's 138 00:10:49,136 --> 00:10:51,756 Speaker 1: that's you know um i don't know if you intend 139 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:53,276 Speaker 1: it to be beautiful i mean how do you think 140 00:10:53,316 --> 00:10:55,296 Speaker 1: your music sounds to you i mean is there. 141 00:10:55,136 --> 00:10:59,986 Speaker 2: A I don't know. I think that, look, life does 142 00:11:00,026 --> 00:11:04,416 Speaker 2: not make sense. That's kind of like the number one thing. 143 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:10,896 Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense. So I struggle to find words 144 00:11:10,956 --> 00:11:16,786 Speaker 2: to describe things coherently, as you'll probably find out in 145 00:11:17,206 --> 00:11:20,386 Speaker 2: this podcast. But, you know. 146 00:11:21,996 --> 00:11:27,666 Speaker 2: Music is a way to keep yourself company, to kind 147 00:11:27,746 --> 00:11:31,006 Speaker 2: of go through things that are like down in the 148 00:11:31,066 --> 00:11:34,426 Speaker 2: basement that you can't, you don't have words for, you 149 00:11:34,486 --> 00:11:38,216 Speaker 2: can't say out loud, like kind of confessions and things 150 00:11:38,266 --> 00:11:42,176 Speaker 2: like that. And it's, for me, I mean, whether I'm 151 00:11:42,496 --> 00:11:49,456 Speaker 2: by myself or in the studio with a billion tracks 152 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:54,066 Speaker 2: of people playing, the important thing for me is the, 153 00:11:54,966 --> 00:11:55,966 Speaker 2: the feeling of it. 154 00:11:56,146 --> 00:11:57,746 Speaker 1: What, how you're feeling in the moment. 155 00:11:58,366 --> 00:12:00,866 Speaker 2: And, and what it, what it, what it feels like. Um, 156 00:12:01,336 --> 00:12:05,756 Speaker 2: I mean, that's how I would direct, um, people that, 157 00:12:05,976 --> 00:12:08,216 Speaker 2: that would play with me or my band. It's like, 158 00:12:08,816 --> 00:12:11,616 Speaker 2: you're really great at what you do. I'm not going to, 159 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:14,676 Speaker 2: you know, pick it, you know, telling you how to 160 00:12:14,716 --> 00:12:17,386 Speaker 2: play a cello when you're the greatest at it, but I'll, 161 00:12:17,446 --> 00:12:21,676 Speaker 2: I'll tell you how it feels. Um, If that makes sense. 162 00:12:21,976 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 2: And that's the most important thing. So I suppose it's like, 163 00:12:25,786 --> 00:12:27,646 Speaker 2: what's the soul of it? 164 00:12:27,946 --> 00:12:28,726 Speaker 1: Yeah. 165 00:12:29,206 --> 00:12:31,446 Speaker 2: If that makes sense. And I don't know, on the 166 00:12:31,506 --> 00:12:33,666 Speaker 2: inside of the cover of Blood Horse is a painting 167 00:12:33,706 --> 00:12:38,466 Speaker 2: by my mum, Lisa, of a patch of sky that 168 00:12:38,486 --> 00:12:42,026 Speaker 2: I look at every night when I'm home in Australia. And, 169 00:12:42,286 --> 00:12:50,286 Speaker 2: you know, I've seen that sky, you know, in sunrises, sunsets. storms, 170 00:12:50,606 --> 00:12:59,086 Speaker 2: beautiful days, hot air balloons, flocks of parrots, full moons, 171 00:12:59,746 --> 00:13:03,546 Speaker 2: unable to see anything because of bushfire, smoke, and it 172 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:06,296 Speaker 2: changes every day. And I think that's what the music 173 00:13:06,336 --> 00:13:09,216 Speaker 2: is like. It's what the world is like and it's 174 00:13:09,256 --> 00:13:14,276 Speaker 2: what my brain is like. It's all over the place 175 00:13:14,496 --> 00:13:17,806 Speaker 2: and that's kind of the way it should be. Well, 176 00:13:17,826 --> 00:13:18,626 Speaker 2: there's a way that feels. 177 00:13:18,906 --> 00:13:21,066 Speaker 1: Music that you didn't make, music that you're just a 178 00:13:21,146 --> 00:13:24,746 Speaker 1: fan of, that you listen to, is it similar for that? 179 00:13:25,126 --> 00:13:26,246 Speaker 1: Does it change as well? 180 00:13:26,476 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, music that, I mean, I like a lot of things. 181 00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 2: And I like something if I believe in it. And 182 00:13:39,416 --> 00:13:44,406 Speaker 2: feel something. And do I believe it? You know, like 183 00:13:44,446 --> 00:13:48,826 Speaker 2: sometimes who's come across somebody live And you'll just be like, 184 00:13:49,046 --> 00:13:50,806 Speaker 2: I believe this person. 185 00:13:50,826 --> 00:13:51,186 Speaker 1: Yeah. 186 00:13:51,306 --> 00:13:55,656 Speaker 2: I believe this. And sometimes you go, I don't believe you. 187 00:13:56,236 --> 00:13:56,336 Speaker 1: Yeah. 188 00:13:56,356 --> 00:13:56,976 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? 189 00:13:57,016 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 1: Yeah. 190 00:13:57,736 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's kind of it. Like, it doesn't matter 191 00:13:59,836 --> 00:14:00,476 Speaker 2: what it is. 192 00:14:00,496 --> 00:14:01,376 Speaker 1: Yeah. 193 00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:05,646 Speaker 2: I think it's a really bullshit thing to judge music 194 00:14:05,706 --> 00:14:08,286 Speaker 2: on a genre or something like that. It's like, do 195 00:14:08,326 --> 00:14:09,226 Speaker 2: I believe it or not? 196 00:14:09,386 --> 00:14:09,566 Speaker 1: Yeah. 197 00:14:09,606 --> 00:14:10,106 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? 198 00:14:10,186 --> 00:14:10,386 Speaker 4: Yeah. 199 00:14:10,406 --> 00:14:14,816 Speaker 1: I mean, that's, I mean... That's a great barometer for 200 00:14:14,896 --> 00:14:17,166 Speaker 1: whether or not music is good, whether you believe it. 201 00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:21,166 Speaker 1: Although sometimes the best music is unbelievable, too. I mean, 202 00:14:21,186 --> 00:14:24,606 Speaker 1: your voice to a degree is unbelievable. In the best 203 00:14:24,686 --> 00:14:27,926 Speaker 1: of ways. It's like, where does that come from? Did 204 00:14:27,966 --> 00:14:33,006 Speaker 1: you always sing growing up? Does your family sing, perform? 205 00:14:33,706 --> 00:14:39,226 Speaker 2: Nobody in my family sings. It does, no, except for 206 00:14:39,266 --> 00:14:44,616 Speaker 2: my late nana. I wear a necklace around my neck. 207 00:14:44,666 --> 00:14:46,786 Speaker 2: I don't take it off. And that was my nana Eileen's. 208 00:14:48,116 --> 00:14:54,796 Speaker 2: When I knew her, she was very unwell. And even 209 00:14:54,816 --> 00:14:59,856 Speaker 2: though she wanted to say, you know, hi, Gracie, how's school, blah, blah, blah, 210 00:15:00,156 --> 00:15:03,976 Speaker 2: for the years that I knew her, she would only 211 00:15:04,196 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: ever say one phrase. And it was, I do my best. 212 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:12,256 Speaker 2: And that's all I ever heard her say. But people 213 00:15:12,296 --> 00:15:15,016 Speaker 2: would talk about how she had the most beautiful voice, 214 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:18,536 Speaker 2: singing voice and piano. And I'd never heard it. And 215 00:15:19,136 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 2: when my parents were moving out of our family home, 216 00:15:22,636 --> 00:15:25,536 Speaker 2: they were going through the boxes in the shed. And 217 00:15:26,126 --> 00:15:29,546 Speaker 2: there was a record and it wasn't on vinyl. It 218 00:15:29,566 --> 00:15:32,106 Speaker 2: was on, you know, that stuff that if you break it, it'll... 219 00:15:32,546 --> 00:15:35,766 Speaker 2: Like shellac? Like the old 78 or something. Which meant 220 00:15:35,806 --> 00:15:38,186 Speaker 2: that it kept and I could play it. 221 00:15:38,366 --> 00:15:38,646 Speaker 1: Wow. 222 00:15:38,826 --> 00:15:41,026 Speaker 2: And I put that on and I heard my nana 223 00:15:41,476 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 2: sing and it was just magnificent. 224 00:15:45,976 --> 00:15:47,696 Speaker 1: So she had pressed a record at some point. 225 00:15:48,116 --> 00:15:53,186 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It was her singing a couple of songs 226 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:59,826 Speaker 2: in Irish and some classic songs and playing the piano. 227 00:15:59,946 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 2: And it was just... Yeah, I feel like that's my 228 00:16:04,416 --> 00:16:05,276 Speaker 2: connection with her. 229 00:16:05,296 --> 00:16:05,896 Speaker 1: Wow. 230 00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was like an operatic kind of soprano singer. 231 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:11,996 Speaker 1: Makes sense for the Irish. I feel like that is 232 00:16:12,096 --> 00:16:13,756 Speaker 1: sort of how Irish songs are sung. 233 00:16:14,536 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, or kind of like. 234 00:16:18,626 --> 00:16:21,486 Speaker 2: The thing I love about Irish music or trad Irish 235 00:16:21,566 --> 00:16:26,466 Speaker 2: music is that kind of keening quality to the voice, 236 00:16:26,526 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 2: which is like a... kind of raw kind of animalistic 237 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:37,416 Speaker 2: i mean it it's women keen at like funerals and 238 00:16:37,456 --> 00:16:40,566 Speaker 2: things like that yeah it's but it's that kind of 239 00:16:40,706 --> 00:16:45,806 Speaker 2: primal i don't know basement release of the voice it's it's. 240 00:16:45,746 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 1: Almost it's almost um uh blues ish in its way 241 00:16:50,616 --> 00:16:54,536 Speaker 1: like the way um similar in terms of which you 242 00:16:54,556 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: at least imagine it's trying, it's accomplishing. It's just like, 243 00:16:56,796 --> 00:16:57,436 Speaker 1: it's a wailing. 244 00:16:57,736 --> 00:16:58,316 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. 245 00:16:58,336 --> 00:16:59,496 Speaker 2: It's a, it's a wailing. 246 00:16:59,596 --> 00:16:59,856 Speaker 4: Yeah. 247 00:17:00,016 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 2: It's a, it's a cry. 248 00:17:01,136 --> 00:17:02,036 Speaker 1: Yeah. 249 00:17:02,936 --> 00:17:06,236 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, yeah, it's like, I also think that like, 250 00:17:06,276 --> 00:17:08,466 Speaker 2: I've been asked a lot of questions about music and 251 00:17:08,826 --> 00:17:10,626 Speaker 2: the album and stuff like that. And I think that 252 00:17:11,646 --> 00:17:15,566 Speaker 2: ultimately there's kind of like two things, or at least 253 00:17:15,606 --> 00:17:20,706 Speaker 2: for me, it's to whatever it is, please help me 254 00:17:21,906 --> 00:17:23,266 Speaker 2: or thank you for helping me. 255 00:17:24,216 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 1: Those are the two categories of songs. 256 00:17:27,096 --> 00:17:29,816 Speaker 2: Almost, yeah. Or, you know, yeah, kind of. 257 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:30,236 Speaker 1: Wow. 258 00:17:30,276 --> 00:17:32,856 Speaker 2: Please or thank you. 259 00:17:33,256 --> 00:17:35,656 Speaker 1: To God, any people? 260 00:17:35,976 --> 00:17:40,936 Speaker 2: Something, yeah. It's like there's a desperate quality in everybody. 261 00:17:41,056 --> 00:17:45,856 Speaker 2: And I think that I believe people when I can 262 00:17:45,996 --> 00:17:46,946 Speaker 2: see a little bit of it. 263 00:17:47,116 --> 00:17:47,376 Speaker 1: Yeah. 264 00:17:47,596 --> 00:17:49,316 Speaker 2: And that comes with things that are joyful, too. 265 00:17:49,336 --> 00:17:54,396 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what I mean? I think so. It's joyful, too. Yeah, 266 00:17:54,436 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: like there's a bit out of your control. 267 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:57,136 Speaker 2: It's pure joy, you know. 268 00:17:57,156 --> 00:18:03,466 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it makes sense. Did 269 00:18:04,026 --> 00:18:06,386 Speaker 1: you listen to Irish music before you discovered that record 270 00:18:06,566 --> 00:18:10,746 Speaker 1: of your grandmother? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. Irish music, I 271 00:18:10,766 --> 00:18:14,956 Speaker 1: don't know a ton. I know bits and pieces. What 272 00:18:15,036 --> 00:18:19,376 Speaker 1: is the... If you were to sort of explain traditional 273 00:18:19,536 --> 00:18:23,496 Speaker 1: Irish music to someone, I mean, what should someone listen 274 00:18:23,536 --> 00:18:23,836 Speaker 1: to to. 275 00:18:24,316 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 2: I grew up listening to, I don't know, a lot 276 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:32,516 Speaker 2: of things. I recently recorded, which it was a bold move, 277 00:18:32,556 --> 00:18:35,026 Speaker 2: and I still don't know if I should have done it, 278 00:18:36,026 --> 00:18:41,566 Speaker 2: for War Child Australia, a rendition of My Lag and Love, 279 00:18:42,266 --> 00:18:45,126 Speaker 2: which is a Trout Irish song that I dedicated to 280 00:18:45,166 --> 00:18:49,556 Speaker 2: my nana. Um, but right now, um, they're my, my 281 00:18:49,636 --> 00:18:54,496 Speaker 2: favorite called the gloaming. Um, they have a fiddle player, 282 00:18:54,596 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 2: Martin Hayes, um, who I think is fantastic. And they, uh, um, yeah, 283 00:19:02,676 --> 00:19:04,736 Speaker 2: trad and current and, and beautiful. 284 00:19:05,476 --> 00:19:06,756 Speaker 1: They're, they're newer band. 285 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:11,346 Speaker 2: I mean, they're, they're, they've been around, but they're playing. 286 00:19:11,566 --> 00:19:15,476 Speaker 1: They're playing. Yeah. Irish music is, um, it's a, it's 287 00:19:15,496 --> 00:19:18,416 Speaker 1: such a rich folk tradition, but it feels, and it 288 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:25,706 Speaker 1: definitely Irish and then kind of Scottish, British, obviously influenced 289 00:19:25,846 --> 00:19:27,646 Speaker 1: greatly the American folk scene, but I just, I feel 290 00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:30,626 Speaker 1: like I know so little about the actual roots of 291 00:19:31,566 --> 00:19:33,706 Speaker 1: any of that folk music, you know, in terms of. Yeah. 292 00:19:34,006 --> 00:19:38,586 Speaker 2: I mean, like often they're pretty desperate cries, you know 293 00:19:39,446 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 2: but there's a, there's a, there's a kind of joy 294 00:19:42,096 --> 00:19:44,336 Speaker 2: in releasing those kinds of things. I mean, it just 295 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:49,106 Speaker 2: feels like gutter. It's guttural, you know, it's like really 296 00:19:49,206 --> 00:19:53,306 Speaker 2: good country music. It's like, it sounds, you know, like 297 00:19:53,346 --> 00:19:56,486 Speaker 2: I'm not too into a lot of new country music, 298 00:19:56,526 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 2: but you know, like if you listen to you know 299 00:20:00,496 --> 00:20:04,776 Speaker 2: old violin or something it's just like that stuff is 300 00:20:05,896 --> 00:20:08,906 Speaker 2: you know it has this formula but you listen to 301 00:20:08,986 --> 00:20:14,046 Speaker 2: it it's like absolutely just like yeah heart-wrenching kind of 302 00:20:14,066 --> 00:20:17,706 Speaker 2: stuff you know desperate and it's also ways to um 303 00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:25,236 Speaker 2: I don't know, keep stories alive and mythology alive and, um, remember, uh, 304 00:20:25,636 --> 00:20:29,616 Speaker 2: people in history. And it's just, it, it, it's the 305 00:20:29,716 --> 00:20:34,646 Speaker 2: depths of, of, of stuff that we don't really like 306 00:20:34,686 --> 00:20:36,306 Speaker 2: to show people on the outside. Maybe. 307 00:20:36,546 --> 00:20:40,926 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm reminded that, um, Frederick Douglas, who was an American, 308 00:20:40,946 --> 00:20:45,226 Speaker 1: he was an American slave and, and, um, who escaped slavery, 309 00:20:46,266 --> 00:20:50,256 Speaker 1: educated himself. and wrote his memoir and became like a 310 00:20:50,296 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 1: big abolitionist here in America, in the States back in 311 00:20:53,776 --> 00:20:56,376 Speaker 1: the 1800s. But I remember he at some point, I 312 00:20:56,376 --> 00:21:02,666 Speaker 1: read somewhere, he visited Ireland, happened to be right at 313 00:21:02,686 --> 00:21:06,186 Speaker 1: the start or a year into the famine. And he 314 00:21:06,266 --> 00:21:09,026 Speaker 1: said at some point in some publication when he got 315 00:21:09,066 --> 00:21:12,846 Speaker 1: back to the States that he hadn't heard wailing like 316 00:21:12,906 --> 00:21:17,276 Speaker 1: that aside from You know, when he was in slavery himself. 317 00:21:17,296 --> 00:21:19,096 Speaker 1: I was like, Jesus Christ. 318 00:21:19,256 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 2: Well, Sinead O'Connor says that music is made by the oppressed. 319 00:21:26,706 --> 00:21:27,526 Speaker 2: And that makes sense. 320 00:21:27,746 --> 00:21:29,526 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 321 00:21:30,046 --> 00:21:34,086 Speaker 2: And like, you know, he talks about the famine. It's like, 322 00:21:35,306 --> 00:21:37,986 Speaker 2: that wasn't something that naturally happened, you know. 323 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:39,256 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. 324 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:43,326 Speaker 2: Because the English took the food. You know, like, there 325 00:21:43,346 --> 00:21:43,826 Speaker 2: was food. 326 00:21:44,066 --> 00:21:44,546 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're right. 327 00:21:44,566 --> 00:21:45,506 Speaker 2: It just wasn't for the Irish. 328 00:21:45,526 --> 00:21:46,726 Speaker 1: Purposely starved, right? 329 00:21:46,986 --> 00:21:47,766 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 330 00:21:47,926 --> 00:21:49,466 Speaker 1: Right. For years. 331 00:21:50,146 --> 00:21:55,406 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And it's how you get, you know, it's, 332 00:21:56,146 --> 00:21:59,556 Speaker 2: you know, talking about slavery, it's like, it's how people 333 00:21:59,576 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 2: get by. 334 00:22:00,016 --> 00:22:00,096 Speaker 1: Yeah. 335 00:22:00,536 --> 00:22:04,016 Speaker 2: You keep yourself company. And Sinead O'Connor, music is for 336 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:05,016 Speaker 2: the oppressed, you know, like. 337 00:22:07,026 --> 00:22:10,006 Speaker 2: You seem to soothe yourself, to help. 338 00:22:10,306 --> 00:22:10,986 Speaker 1: Yeah. 339 00:22:11,066 --> 00:22:11,886 Speaker 2: Yeah, to get by. 340 00:22:12,026 --> 00:22:14,376 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think people think of 341 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:18,196 Speaker 1: oppressed people or people going through a stroke as being, 342 00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:21,566 Speaker 1: you know, dour. And maybe there's a bit of that, 343 00:22:21,586 --> 00:22:24,776 Speaker 1: but there is a ton of just trying to time 344 00:22:24,816 --> 00:22:27,646 Speaker 1: a ton of trying to lift lift your spirits lift 345 00:22:27,686 --> 00:22:31,666 Speaker 1: other people's spirits trying and enjoy and and all of that. 346 00:22:31,566 --> 00:22:35,606 Speaker 2: Right yeah yeah what what else do we do what. 347 00:22:35,066 --> 00:22:37,566 Speaker 1: Else do we do yeah how how like yeah i 348 00:22:37,606 --> 00:22:40,326 Speaker 1: mean it's uh that's part of uh it's part of 349 00:22:40,346 --> 00:22:43,346 Speaker 1: the human experience you know so you're australia i didn't 350 00:22:43,366 --> 00:22:44,966 Speaker 1: know you were irish so. 351 00:22:45,246 --> 00:22:49,896 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah it's just irish and a little sicilian have 352 00:22:49,916 --> 00:22:53,086 Speaker 2: you been to ireland You know, I have been to 353 00:22:53,146 --> 00:22:56,746 Speaker 2: Sicily where my family comes from in Lipari, which was 354 00:22:56,946 --> 00:22:59,346 Speaker 2: such a beautiful thing to do. And I have never 355 00:22:59,386 --> 00:23:02,506 Speaker 2: been to Ireland and I want to go so badly. 356 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:05,936 Speaker 2: And every time I do a tour of Europe and 357 00:23:05,976 --> 00:23:08,896 Speaker 2: the UK, I'm just like, get it in there. So 358 00:23:08,976 --> 00:23:14,096 Speaker 2: here's the, get me in there. I might never leave 359 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 2: if I go. 360 00:23:14,896 --> 00:23:16,456 Speaker 1: Hopefully it can happen. 361 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:18,876 Speaker 2: But I would love to and I would love to 362 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:23,646 Speaker 2: do like a, a kind of, I don't know, spiritual, 363 00:23:23,746 --> 00:23:25,926 Speaker 2: mythological little tour. 364 00:23:26,146 --> 00:23:29,606 Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be incredible, I'm sure. Yeah. How did you get, 365 00:23:29,706 --> 00:23:31,926 Speaker 1: how did your start in music come about? I first 366 00:23:31,966 --> 00:23:39,036 Speaker 1: heard you on an album called Refuge Cove, which was six, 367 00:23:39,056 --> 00:23:41,356 Speaker 1: seven years ago now. Aye, aye, aye. Would have been 368 00:23:41,376 --> 00:23:42,216 Speaker 1: the first, I know. 369 00:23:42,376 --> 00:23:42,696 Speaker 2: Yeah. 370 00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:44,796 Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like that long ago. But that was 371 00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:45,736 Speaker 1: the first thing you put out? 372 00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:48,126 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't, I. 373 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:51,616 Speaker 2: I mean, I love music. I've always loved music and I, 374 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:55,346 Speaker 2: I've done it for myself mostly. Um, you know, I, 375 00:23:55,906 --> 00:24:00,566 Speaker 2: I started playing to other people when I was a teenager. I, 376 00:24:00,686 --> 00:24:04,486 Speaker 2: I was, um, I played the drums and I sang, um, 377 00:24:04,686 --> 00:24:08,086 Speaker 2: in a band and then I would, you know, pick 378 00:24:08,106 --> 00:24:11,606 Speaker 2: up the guitar at like 3am at parties and sung 379 00:24:11,646 --> 00:24:15,126 Speaker 2: then and then secretly kind of did it and, and 380 00:24:15,166 --> 00:24:20,286 Speaker 2: did it to kind of soothe myself. Um, And I 381 00:24:20,306 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: was an actor and still am, I still would like 382 00:24:23,216 --> 00:24:25,096 Speaker 2: to be just kind of taken over a bit. Um, 383 00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:27,496 Speaker 2: but you know, that was, that was my main thing. 384 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:28,256 Speaker 1: Theater or? 385 00:24:28,456 --> 00:24:31,696 Speaker 2: Um, yeah, yeah. Theater. Um, and, and trained. And it 386 00:24:31,736 --> 00:24:37,256 Speaker 2: was kind of, yeah, that album I, I recorded with, um, 387 00:24:37,856 --> 00:24:41,016 Speaker 2: Jesse Williams and Leah Senior, who's a good friend of mine, 388 00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:43,296 Speaker 2: but she, you know, would be at those parties and 389 00:24:43,666 --> 00:24:47,776 Speaker 2: she's a fantastic australian she's. 390 00:24:47,056 --> 00:24:48,966 Speaker 1: A folk singer too right yeah yeah senior yeah. 391 00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:51,906 Speaker 2: Um and she was just like you have to do 392 00:24:52,746 --> 00:24:55,506 Speaker 2: this like stop doing this by yourself and i was 393 00:24:55,546 --> 00:24:58,126 Speaker 2: terrified but i'm i'm very thankful for her. 394 00:24:58,046 --> 00:25:00,206 Speaker 1: So she just heard you yeah. 395 00:25:00,046 --> 00:25:02,686 Speaker 2: Yeah um you know we would sing together and we 396 00:25:02,706 --> 00:25:04,886 Speaker 2: were in a choir together and you know like i 397 00:25:04,926 --> 00:25:08,026 Speaker 2: would sing with people but i would never have the 398 00:25:08,066 --> 00:25:11,096 Speaker 2: confidence to kind of sing my own things you know 399 00:25:11,216 --> 00:25:14,046 Speaker 2: i didn't think they were good enough or didn't fit 400 00:25:14,066 --> 00:25:20,626 Speaker 2: into like the um purest culture that perhaps some people 401 00:25:20,686 --> 00:25:22,686 Speaker 2: around me were in and stuff like that and she 402 00:25:22,706 --> 00:25:25,716 Speaker 2: was just like nah forget all that shit like like 403 00:25:25,806 --> 00:25:29,176 Speaker 2: do it and um i'm i'm very glad that she 404 00:25:29,216 --> 00:25:30,096 Speaker 2: did did. 405 00:25:30,016 --> 00:25:32,536 Speaker 1: You have that group of songs written already or. 406 00:25:32,736 --> 00:25:34,896 Speaker 2: I mean i've always had them i just never did 407 00:25:35,366 --> 00:25:37,446 Speaker 2: did anything you know um. 408 00:25:37,606 --> 00:25:39,746 Speaker 1: From that original album those songs. 409 00:25:39,326 --> 00:25:41,346 Speaker 2: So the original album and she was like oh you 410 00:25:41,386 --> 00:25:47,026 Speaker 2: know eric um old former member of uh king is 411 00:25:47,266 --> 00:25:51,816 Speaker 2: and um their record label at the time uh flightless 412 00:25:52,656 --> 00:25:54,236 Speaker 2: came to a show and he was like do you 413 00:25:54,256 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 2: have an album that we can release and i was 414 00:25:55,736 --> 00:26:00,056 Speaker 2: like yes and i didn't but i had like you 415 00:26:00,096 --> 00:26:07,146 Speaker 2: know like well recorded demos um And that was Refuge Co. Wow. 416 00:26:07,226 --> 00:26:09,166 Speaker 1: Not just the demos. Did you redo them or those 417 00:26:09,186 --> 00:26:09,726 Speaker 1: were the demos? 418 00:26:09,886 --> 00:26:13,606 Speaker 2: I mean, they were the recordings that I did with 419 00:26:13,646 --> 00:26:17,646 Speaker 2: Jesse and Leo at their house. And that was that. 420 00:26:17,866 --> 00:26:20,496 Speaker 1: Did you feel it was the start of something different now? 421 00:26:20,746 --> 00:26:22,676 Speaker 1: Or did you just assume it was a one-off thing 422 00:26:22,716 --> 00:26:23,876 Speaker 1: and you go back to acting? 423 00:26:23,896 --> 00:26:27,096 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I can't do it now, 424 00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:30,556 Speaker 2: but there are things I regret, like having my own name. 425 00:26:30,896 --> 00:26:34,496 Speaker 2: Because I would never think that I would play outside 426 00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:38,356 Speaker 2: of the retreat front bar in Melbourne. And now I'm like, 427 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:41,836 Speaker 2: I should have picked some other kind of name. 428 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,446 Speaker 1: It's great to use your name. 429 00:26:45,466 --> 00:26:47,036 Speaker 2: People are like, what are you called? What's your band? 430 00:26:47,056 --> 00:26:51,306 Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, my name's Grace Cummings. It just 431 00:26:51,326 --> 00:26:52,086 Speaker 2: feels weird. 432 00:26:52,286 --> 00:26:53,346 Speaker 5: Yeah. 433 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:56,456 Speaker 2: But no, I don't, I don't, I didn't think, I mean, 434 00:26:56,536 --> 00:26:58,556 Speaker 2: still now I do something and I'm like, I'm never 435 00:26:58,596 --> 00:26:59,376 Speaker 2: going to do that again. 436 00:26:59,396 --> 00:26:59,466 Speaker 4: Wow. 437 00:26:59,656 --> 00:27:02,176 Speaker 2: I don't know how, I don't know, I'll never, you know, 438 00:27:02,196 --> 00:27:03,896 Speaker 2: I did Blood Horse and I was like, that's it, 439 00:27:04,536 --> 00:27:12,186 Speaker 2: you know. Really? But when I'm playing on stage or 440 00:27:12,226 --> 00:27:17,726 Speaker 2: in the studio, I've never... never ever as present as that. 441 00:27:18,446 --> 00:27:20,546 Speaker 2: And that could be at home too when I'm singing. 442 00:27:20,706 --> 00:27:26,146 Speaker 2: I'm never that present. And that's the thing that I chase. 443 00:27:26,626 --> 00:27:29,236 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be in front of an audience. 444 00:27:30,266 --> 00:27:34,356 Speaker 2: It's lovely to have that connection. But I don't know 445 00:27:34,416 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 2: how I see myself. And when things come out and 446 00:27:39,076 --> 00:27:42,016 Speaker 2: you see yourself being written about or photos here or 447 00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:44,366 Speaker 2: something like that, I'm like, I don't know who that 448 00:27:44,406 --> 00:27:47,726 Speaker 2: person is almost you know it's like a portrait that's 449 00:27:48,366 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 2: made of you that you've helped make but you're like 450 00:27:52,336 --> 00:27:54,336 Speaker 2: I don't know if I like I relate to that 451 00:27:54,376 --> 00:27:57,656 Speaker 2: person in a way but it's a weird thing it's. 452 00:27:57,596 --> 00:27:59,216 Speaker 1: Like an avatar it's like some. 453 00:27:59,256 --> 00:28:02,416 Speaker 2: Yeah it's strange and then I think someone's going to 454 00:28:02,476 --> 00:28:05,146 Speaker 2: find me out like someone's going to bust me you 455 00:28:05,186 --> 00:28:06,926 Speaker 2: know soon and they're going to find out you know 456 00:28:06,966 --> 00:28:09,706 Speaker 2: like oh my god she's you know what I mean 457 00:28:10,346 --> 00:28:12,786 Speaker 2: yeah yeah yeah someone's going to figure it out sooner 458 00:28:12,846 --> 00:28:13,366 Speaker 2: or later. 459 00:28:14,646 --> 00:28:17,696 Speaker 1: Did that open up a network of people to you 460 00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:19,416 Speaker 1: within Australia? 461 00:28:19,576 --> 00:28:25,176 Speaker 2: It was really, you know, I'm good friends with the 462 00:28:25,216 --> 00:28:28,626 Speaker 2: Giz boys and very grateful for them as well because 463 00:28:28,686 --> 00:28:33,626 Speaker 2: being not known and then being put out on a 464 00:28:34,266 --> 00:28:38,916 Speaker 2: Gizzard label meant that there was a group of people 465 00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:43,006 Speaker 2: that would kind of just, listen to you no matter what. 466 00:28:43,026 --> 00:28:45,466 Speaker 1: There was ears and eyeballs on it instantly. 467 00:28:45,586 --> 00:28:45,866 Speaker 4: Yeah. 468 00:28:46,066 --> 00:28:49,426 Speaker 2: And that, and that did help. And, um, and gosh, 469 00:28:49,506 --> 00:28:52,906 Speaker 2: I can't even, I can't even remember. Like I, um, 470 00:28:53,706 --> 00:28:56,386 Speaker 2: just people popping up. I don't know. I made my 471 00:28:56,426 --> 00:29:02,196 Speaker 2: second record in, um, COVID, uh, Storm Queen. Um, and 472 00:29:02,236 --> 00:29:08,296 Speaker 2: I was touring and, uh, I heard a record, um, 473 00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:12,136 Speaker 2: And I thought the production on this is incredible. And 474 00:29:12,176 --> 00:29:15,826 Speaker 2: I hadn't thought that in a long time. Like the 475 00:29:15,866 --> 00:29:18,586 Speaker 2: last time I was like, this production is incredible was 476 00:29:18,646 --> 00:29:22,306 Speaker 2: like Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude or something, you know. And 477 00:29:22,366 --> 00:29:24,306 Speaker 2: I was like, who is this producer? And it was 478 00:29:24,346 --> 00:29:25,206 Speaker 2: Jonathan Wilson. 479 00:29:25,926 --> 00:29:26,866 Speaker 1: What album had you heard? 480 00:29:27,366 --> 00:29:30,946 Speaker 2: It was big time. It was Angel Olsen's record. 481 00:29:30,966 --> 00:29:31,466 Speaker 3: Amazing. 482 00:29:31,506 --> 00:29:35,206 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't, I mean, I love Angel 483 00:29:35,266 --> 00:29:39,516 Speaker 2: and I've listened to her music. since but I didn't 484 00:29:39,576 --> 00:29:45,086 Speaker 2: know Angels music really very much. Um, uh, but I 485 00:29:45,126 --> 00:29:48,326 Speaker 2: was sent that and I, um, thought it was fantastic 486 00:29:48,386 --> 00:29:51,406 Speaker 2: and the songs were beautiful, but I was like the production, 487 00:29:51,466 --> 00:29:54,846 Speaker 2: I was like, whoa. Um, and I was really tired 488 00:29:54,886 --> 00:29:57,996 Speaker 2: in the tour van, um, and somehow, you know, got 489 00:29:58,066 --> 00:30:02,356 Speaker 2: some confidence and I thought, you know, fuck it. I'll 490 00:30:02,376 --> 00:30:05,916 Speaker 2: just reach out to the guy. Um, and he sent 491 00:30:05,976 --> 00:30:09,126 Speaker 2: me a photo back like 20 minutes later. being like, 492 00:30:09,206 --> 00:30:11,946 Speaker 2: I'm listening to Raglan. And he was playing in Roger 493 00:30:12,106 --> 00:30:14,926 Speaker 2: Waters band at the time. And he was backstage and 494 00:30:14,966 --> 00:30:17,926 Speaker 2: sent me a photo of the big inflatable pig. And 495 00:30:17,966 --> 00:30:22,686 Speaker 2: I was like, is this real? Is this happening? And 496 00:30:22,726 --> 00:30:24,346 Speaker 2: then I said, do you want to do a record together? 497 00:30:24,366 --> 00:30:30,156 Speaker 2: He said, yeah. So, and it's become one of the 498 00:30:30,196 --> 00:30:33,816 Speaker 2: best relationships in my life and musical relationships, you know, friendships, 499 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:38,096 Speaker 2: but musical relationships, like Yeah, we get each other and 500 00:30:38,136 --> 00:30:41,536 Speaker 2: we're both a little nuts. 501 00:30:42,916 --> 00:30:46,586 Speaker 1: Yes, I can see. Jonathan Wilson, I mean, he just 502 00:30:46,666 --> 00:30:47,966 Speaker 1: lives and breathes it, man. 503 00:30:48,266 --> 00:30:48,836 Speaker 2: You can't stop him. 504 00:30:48,866 --> 00:30:51,386 Speaker 1: Everything he does is like of a certain, it's just, 505 00:30:52,006 --> 00:30:54,026 Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, he's like the Neil Young 506 00:30:54,086 --> 00:30:57,086 Speaker 1: of producers or something. Everything's of just a certain quality. 507 00:30:57,106 --> 00:30:59,656 Speaker 1: It's just like, you know it's going to be something 508 00:31:00,096 --> 00:31:01,096 Speaker 1: worth listening to. 509 00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:04,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's incredible. And he's not, you know, like the 510 00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:05,876 Speaker 2: first time I ever spoke to him, he was like, 511 00:31:06,466 --> 00:31:08,036 Speaker 2: you know, on the phone to kind of talk about 512 00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:11,866 Speaker 2: what we're doing. You know, I'm not a precious person. 513 00:31:11,886 --> 00:31:16,206 Speaker 2: It's very much like whatever, like just have an idea 514 00:31:16,246 --> 00:31:20,046 Speaker 2: and it's like, let's try, you know. And the first 515 00:31:20,066 --> 00:31:22,586 Speaker 2: thing that he said was like, just so you know, 516 00:31:23,046 --> 00:31:25,226 Speaker 2: I'm not one of those producers that like sits in 517 00:31:25,266 --> 00:31:27,506 Speaker 2: the chair and tells everyone what to do. And I 518 00:31:27,526 --> 00:31:31,626 Speaker 2: was like, sick. So it's kind of like, I mean, 519 00:31:31,666 --> 00:31:34,786 Speaker 2: he's incredible. And on these records, he's a thousand people, 520 00:31:35,186 --> 00:31:38,906 Speaker 2: you know, like he's, he is outrageous. Like I've never 521 00:31:39,086 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 2: met a musician like him, but also it's very much 522 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:48,136 Speaker 2: kind of like the two of us kind of running 523 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:51,236 Speaker 2: around like Jack Russell's getting really, really excited by music. 524 00:31:51,316 --> 00:31:54,676 Speaker 2: And you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, it's, 525 00:31:54,976 --> 00:31:59,436 Speaker 2: it's playtime and it's, it's just the best thing ever. And, 526 00:31:59,856 --> 00:32:01,896 Speaker 2: you know, you can say whatever you want and he'll 527 00:32:01,916 --> 00:32:02,966 Speaker 2: be like, hell yeah, let's go. 528 00:32:02,986 --> 00:32:09,256 Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, you know? I mean, the last 529 00:32:09,276 --> 00:32:12,626 Speaker 1: two albums especially, I mean, are just so sonically rich. 530 00:32:12,866 --> 00:32:16,366 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's so, the world you have created 531 00:32:16,386 --> 00:32:19,886 Speaker 1: in both of them are insane. And it's such a contradiction, 532 00:32:19,966 --> 00:32:22,246 Speaker 1: or such not, excuse me, it's such a, compared to 533 00:32:22,266 --> 00:32:25,846 Speaker 1: the first one, you know, it's, which is so sparse. 534 00:32:26,066 --> 00:32:28,596 Speaker 1: There is a, there's a, it's like, wow. Did you 535 00:32:28,676 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 1: always hear your music sounding the way that it does now? Or? 536 00:32:33,256 --> 00:32:35,536 Speaker 2: I think so. I think that's the way that I 537 00:32:35,576 --> 00:32:40,696 Speaker 2: hear the world. Like, it's very grand music. it's dramatic. Um, 538 00:32:41,176 --> 00:32:44,316 Speaker 2: you know, people kind of like say, Oh, you've trained 539 00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:46,696 Speaker 2: in theater. Like there's a drama in there and blah, blah, blah. 540 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:49,636 Speaker 2: And I'm, I kind of like, yes, I, I, that 541 00:32:49,696 --> 00:32:56,616 Speaker 2: is true, but the world is full of, it's a melodrama, 542 00:32:57,056 --> 00:33:01,126 Speaker 2: you know? Um, I mean, you play a bit part in, in, 543 00:33:01,286 --> 00:33:04,286 Speaker 2: in nature's great epic. Um, but that's what it is, 544 00:33:04,386 --> 00:33:09,196 Speaker 2: you know? Um, and that's how it feels to me. Um, And, yeah, 545 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:12,136 Speaker 2: going back to, like, what a song is or what's 546 00:33:12,176 --> 00:33:17,296 Speaker 2: important about it is the feeling and it's the primal 547 00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:22,696 Speaker 2: kind of feeling. So it always does kind of sound 548 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:24,316 Speaker 2: like that in my head or feel like that in 549 00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:28,076 Speaker 2: my head, whether it's sung with just a guitar or 550 00:33:28,236 --> 00:33:36,126 Speaker 2: with a fucking orchestra. It's just if the feeling is there. Yeah. 551 00:33:36,996 --> 00:33:37,696 Speaker 2: It's grand. 552 00:33:38,016 --> 00:33:38,196 Speaker 1: Yeah. 553 00:33:38,296 --> 00:33:38,936 Speaker 2: You know what I mean? 554 00:33:38,956 --> 00:33:41,956 Speaker 1: Yeah. There's always a grandness implied. Yeah. No matter how 555 00:33:41,996 --> 00:33:42,736 Speaker 1: you're playing the songs. 556 00:33:42,776 --> 00:33:43,556 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 557 00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:48,596 Speaker 2: I mean, like, what's it for otherwise? 558 00:33:48,726 --> 00:33:51,586 Speaker 1: I think luckily for you, like, just there's a grandness 559 00:33:51,626 --> 00:33:55,246 Speaker 1: and a drama to your... your voice and the way, 560 00:33:55,346 --> 00:33:58,066 Speaker 1: the way you, so to your earlier point, it's like, 561 00:33:58,126 --> 00:34:00,416 Speaker 1: whether it's just you and a guitar or, or whether 562 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:04,516 Speaker 1: you actually do fill it out with these like incredible orchestrations, 563 00:34:04,576 --> 00:34:07,576 Speaker 1: it's an arrangements, it's going to sound great. You know, 564 00:34:07,816 --> 00:34:09,856 Speaker 1: you don't, I don't think you have to do too 565 00:34:09,916 --> 00:34:11,376 Speaker 1: much to get there, you know? 566 00:34:11,896 --> 00:34:13,946 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, like I know I have a big, 567 00:34:14,486 --> 00:34:17,166 Speaker 2: a big voice, but I like, yeah, I, it's a, 568 00:34:19,386 --> 00:34:22,836 Speaker 2: it's a, yeah, it's a release. It's the biggest release 569 00:34:22,976 --> 00:34:26,526 Speaker 2: that I could have in my life. I'm very grateful 570 00:34:26,586 --> 00:34:31,386 Speaker 2: that I have a connection to my voice because it's 571 00:34:33,186 --> 00:34:35,446 Speaker 2: sometimes my only source of comfort. 572 00:34:35,846 --> 00:34:36,446 Speaker 1: Wow. 573 00:34:37,366 --> 00:34:37,886 Speaker 4: Yeah. 574 00:34:38,686 --> 00:34:39,646 Speaker 2: It's a bit somber. 575 00:34:40,046 --> 00:34:40,126 Speaker 1: No. 576 00:34:40,146 --> 00:34:40,246 Speaker 2: No. 577 00:34:41,536 --> 00:34:43,976 Speaker 1: But, I mean, it's true. That's the truth. 578 00:34:44,116 --> 00:34:46,016 Speaker 2: But it's a source of joy, too. 579 00:34:46,136 --> 00:34:49,576 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You can tell you're having fun making the album. 580 00:34:49,696 --> 00:34:50,796 Speaker 2: I'm having a lot of fun. 581 00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:53,816 Speaker 1: Yeah. Where does Blood Horse come from? 582 00:34:54,736 --> 00:34:58,266 Speaker 2: Blood Horse, it took me a while to name the record. 583 00:34:58,366 --> 00:35:03,786 Speaker 2: I don't know. I can't remember. It just popped into 584 00:35:03,846 --> 00:35:06,786 Speaker 2: my head when I was on the phone to Jonathan 585 00:35:06,826 --> 00:35:10,956 Speaker 2: talking about something, like one of our rambling conversations. talking 586 00:35:10,976 --> 00:35:15,196 Speaker 2: about something I mean like technically a blood horse is 587 00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:24,276 Speaker 2: like a purebred a thoroughbred like racehorse like an archaic 588 00:35:24,316 --> 00:35:28,326 Speaker 2: term for that but it's also kind of I feel 589 00:35:28,486 --> 00:35:33,566 Speaker 2: like blood horse or like that song in particular brings 590 00:35:33,606 --> 00:35:36,126 Speaker 2: me back to like if we were talking about me 591 00:35:36,186 --> 00:35:37,726 Speaker 2: like people are like are you the blood horse and 592 00:35:37,746 --> 00:35:41,946 Speaker 2: I'm like sometimes like I feel like I like when 593 00:35:41,966 --> 00:35:44,906 Speaker 2: I go to sleep, for instance, I feel like I'm 594 00:35:44,966 --> 00:35:47,846 Speaker 2: not really resting. I'm just like waiting in the stalls, 595 00:35:47,966 --> 00:35:51,686 Speaker 2: you know, and then I open my eyes and you 596 00:35:51,726 --> 00:35:56,536 Speaker 2: just fucking run, you know, if it's to something away 597 00:35:56,596 --> 00:36:01,476 Speaker 2: from something or whatever. Um, and, um, but it also, 598 00:36:01,536 --> 00:36:04,056 Speaker 2: it's like a, it, it, it's a, it's a big word. 599 00:36:04,096 --> 00:36:07,036 Speaker 2: It has an exclamation mark on it. Um, it's a, 600 00:36:07,276 --> 00:36:11,436 Speaker 2: it's kind of, mythological ish you know it's a grand 601 00:36:11,836 --> 00:36:14,776 Speaker 2: kind of um image as well yeah. 602 00:36:14,736 --> 00:36:17,936 Speaker 1: Yeah does does that that feeling of being in a 603 00:36:19,116 --> 00:36:24,356 Speaker 1: in a stall just waiting to be sort of released 604 00:36:24,576 --> 00:36:29,026 Speaker 1: or unleashed maybe it was has that is that has 605 00:36:29,046 --> 00:36:34,826 Speaker 1: that intensified um now that you're you know making albums 606 00:36:34,846 --> 00:36:37,326 Speaker 1: and you're on the road and you're promoting i mean 607 00:36:37,346 --> 00:36:41,486 Speaker 1: does that Does being in or a part of a 608 00:36:41,566 --> 00:36:46,106 Speaker 1: music industry make you feel even more? Does it intensify 609 00:36:46,146 --> 00:36:46,526 Speaker 1: that feeling? 610 00:36:46,566 --> 00:36:49,246 Speaker 2: Let me think a little bit about that. Yeah, it 611 00:36:49,286 --> 00:36:54,316 Speaker 2: does intensify it a little bit. I mean, you know, 612 00:36:54,336 --> 00:36:58,676 Speaker 2: it's a hard industry to be in. But, you know, 613 00:36:58,696 --> 00:37:04,126 Speaker 2: I've done it to myself, I suppose. But I'm getting 614 00:37:04,206 --> 00:37:11,206 Speaker 2: better at being in music. the industry. I think quitting 615 00:37:11,246 --> 00:37:16,566 Speaker 2: drinking helped me get a lot better at that. That 616 00:37:16,706 --> 00:37:22,666 Speaker 2: helped my life in general. And I don't know, in 617 00:37:22,706 --> 00:37:26,376 Speaker 2: the last little while and whilst making Blood Horse, I 618 00:37:27,856 --> 00:37:32,356 Speaker 2: have kind of grown to become a little bit more myself. 619 00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:35,576 Speaker 2: And it's the person that, you know, my family has 620 00:37:35,616 --> 00:37:37,956 Speaker 2: said to me and I recognize it in myself. It's 621 00:37:38,026 --> 00:37:42,906 Speaker 2: like what I was like, you know, more when I 622 00:37:42,926 --> 00:37:44,146 Speaker 2: was a child, you know. 623 00:37:44,646 --> 00:37:45,946 Speaker 1: I'm sober now. 624 00:37:46,486 --> 00:37:46,926 Speaker 4: Yeah. 625 00:37:46,946 --> 00:37:49,646 Speaker 2: Or just, yeah, like figuring out who I am or 626 00:37:49,686 --> 00:37:54,346 Speaker 2: kind of like getting rid of a little layer of 627 00:37:55,026 --> 00:37:59,166 Speaker 2: care that's like, you know what, what can you offer 628 00:37:59,186 --> 00:38:03,296 Speaker 2: the world that it doesn't already have is you. Um, 629 00:38:03,996 --> 00:38:06,996 Speaker 2: and sometimes a lot of the time you don't like 630 00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:09,716 Speaker 2: that or you struggle with that, but, um, that's all 631 00:38:09,736 --> 00:38:15,776 Speaker 2: you've got. And, um, I've learned that, you know, making music, 632 00:38:15,836 --> 00:38:17,736 Speaker 2: I used to think, you know, oh, if I say this, 633 00:38:17,776 --> 00:38:19,756 Speaker 2: or if I say that it's so selfish, it's all 634 00:38:19,776 --> 00:38:23,956 Speaker 2: about you. Like who gives a shit? It's not true 635 00:38:23,996 --> 00:38:29,126 Speaker 2: because you're not, you're not that unique. Um, so I, 636 00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:32,786 Speaker 2: I think I learned there was a song on Ramona 637 00:38:32,826 --> 00:38:35,156 Speaker 2: called a precious thing. And it was kind of like 638 00:38:35,216 --> 00:38:40,736 Speaker 2: the most raw, um, kind of upfront, um, song on 639 00:38:40,776 --> 00:38:46,976 Speaker 2: that record. And I learned from, um, people's, the way 640 00:38:47,016 --> 00:38:51,186 Speaker 2: that people, um, spoke to me about it and how it, 641 00:38:51,706 --> 00:38:54,346 Speaker 2: they related to it or how it made them feel 642 00:38:54,366 --> 00:38:59,026 Speaker 2: held or something like that. It's like, it's not all 643 00:38:59,086 --> 00:39:04,796 Speaker 2: about you. Um, It's about giving that bit that's hard 644 00:39:05,116 --> 00:39:09,656 Speaker 2: to think about to others, if that makes sense. 645 00:39:10,536 --> 00:39:11,696 Speaker 1: Yeah. 646 00:39:12,436 --> 00:39:19,456 Speaker 2: If you feel something, someone else definitely does too. 647 00:39:19,476 --> 00:39:19,556 Speaker 3: Yeah. 648 00:39:19,616 --> 00:39:22,506 Speaker 1: Back to we're not that unique. Most of our... very 649 00:39:22,626 --> 00:39:25,876 Speaker 1: personal traumas can be very relatable. 650 00:39:25,996 --> 00:39:27,096 Speaker 2: Totally, totally. 651 00:39:27,216 --> 00:39:29,696 Speaker 1: You know, someone has gone through something similar or feels 652 00:39:29,756 --> 00:39:30,436 Speaker 1: something similar. 653 00:39:30,456 --> 00:39:33,336 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's taken a lot of, it's taken a 654 00:39:33,336 --> 00:39:34,946 Speaker 2: lot of courage, you know, like I've always kind of 655 00:39:35,026 --> 00:39:40,446 Speaker 2: not been very comfortable with myself, but I thought, well, 656 00:39:41,106 --> 00:39:47,956 Speaker 2: if you've got the opportunity, just have a little courage 657 00:39:48,016 --> 00:39:50,716 Speaker 2: and be yourself. Maybe you love yourself or maybe someone 658 00:39:50,736 --> 00:39:53,176 Speaker 2: else will feel a little more loved or understood or something, 659 00:39:53,456 --> 00:39:59,116 Speaker 2: you know. And little Gracie would be, Proud of you. 660 00:39:59,316 --> 00:39:59,676 Speaker 1: Wow. 661 00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:00,726 Speaker 4: Wow. 662 00:40:02,366 --> 00:40:04,946 Speaker 1: You maybe lost the line of connection between who you 663 00:40:04,966 --> 00:40:07,506 Speaker 1: were as a kid as you became an adult. You 664 00:40:07,526 --> 00:40:08,866 Speaker 1: feel you're back to that person now. 665 00:40:09,256 --> 00:40:14,136 Speaker 2: I'm coming back to that person and I am comfortable 666 00:40:14,156 --> 00:40:22,736 Speaker 2: as that person. And I know a little bit more 667 00:40:23,316 --> 00:40:27,006 Speaker 2: about who's looking back at me in the mirror. And 668 00:40:27,046 --> 00:40:29,446 Speaker 2: there was a very long time where I had no idea, 669 00:40:29,466 --> 00:40:34,566 Speaker 2: you know, because I... think that I, you know, whether 670 00:40:34,646 --> 00:40:38,246 Speaker 2: consciously or subconsciously, like would adopt the, the, the, the 671 00:40:38,306 --> 00:40:40,736 Speaker 2: opinions of others or the, or the likes and the, 672 00:40:40,906 --> 00:40:47,106 Speaker 2: and the wants of others or the, what success meant or, or, 673 00:40:47,466 --> 00:40:50,166 Speaker 2: or things like that to please people or to not 674 00:40:50,206 --> 00:40:53,986 Speaker 2: get in trouble or to, uh, you know, get by 675 00:40:54,086 --> 00:40:58,816 Speaker 2: or not feel ashamed or, or judged or, or something 676 00:40:58,856 --> 00:41:06,186 Speaker 2: like that. Um, And I just think that's exhausting. And 677 00:41:07,166 --> 00:41:08,386 Speaker 2: it's kind of freeing to. 678 00:41:08,416 --> 00:41:08,496 Speaker 1: I. 679 00:41:10,116 --> 00:41:16,396 Speaker 2: Don't know, you're talking about stills? Oh, it's Crosby, actually. 680 00:41:16,596 --> 00:41:17,976 Speaker 2: Let your freak flag fly. 681 00:41:18,056 --> 00:41:21,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Crosby, yeah. I'll let you free. I almost 682 00:41:21,756 --> 00:41:22,236 Speaker 1: cut my hair. 683 00:41:22,676 --> 00:41:25,056 Speaker 2: You almost cut my hair. Yeah, yeah, but like. 684 00:41:25,436 --> 00:41:28,956 Speaker 1: The idea of conforming, but then realizing there's not a 685 00:41:28,976 --> 00:41:29,116 Speaker 1: ton of. 686 00:41:33,226 --> 00:41:37,936 Speaker 1: You might think by conforming you're endearing yourself to people 687 00:41:38,176 --> 00:41:40,096 Speaker 1: or you're creating a community, but you're really just alienating 688 00:41:40,136 --> 00:41:41,556 Speaker 1: yourself more than you are. 689 00:41:41,496 --> 00:41:45,546 Speaker 2: Connecting to others. And then I wouldn't believe myself. How 690 00:41:45,586 --> 00:41:48,946 Speaker 2: could someone watch me and believe me when I don't 691 00:41:48,986 --> 00:41:51,206 Speaker 2: believe myself? Not to say that other music that I've 692 00:41:51,226 --> 00:41:55,166 Speaker 2: made is not real, but I think there's just a 693 00:41:55,206 --> 00:41:57,596 Speaker 2: little step forward that I've made that I would love 694 00:41:57,656 --> 00:42:01,096 Speaker 2: to continue to do. which is to kind of go 695 00:42:01,116 --> 00:42:06,226 Speaker 2: further into that. Yeah, because I don't want to regret anything. 696 00:42:06,246 --> 00:42:08,146 Speaker 2: I don't want to regret anything. 697 00:42:08,166 --> 00:42:11,436 Speaker 1: It makes the album cover make more sense as well. 698 00:42:12,036 --> 00:42:13,476 Speaker 1: Not that it... I mean, it was a great cover, 699 00:42:13,896 --> 00:42:16,356 Speaker 1: but just the doll. But, I mean. 700 00:42:17,096 --> 00:42:17,756 Speaker 2: Yeah. 701 00:42:17,836 --> 00:42:21,126 Speaker 1: As an allusion to sort of rediscovering oneself. 702 00:42:21,396 --> 00:42:21,956 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. 703 00:42:22,286 --> 00:42:24,446 Speaker 2: It's the first record that doesn't have my own face 704 00:42:24,526 --> 00:42:27,286 Speaker 2: on it, but it kind of feels like my own. 705 00:42:27,306 --> 00:42:30,286 Speaker 1: More you than maybe some of the other covers. The 706 00:42:30,326 --> 00:42:32,926 Speaker 1: cover for Ramona is amazing, too. 707 00:42:33,046 --> 00:42:36,876 Speaker 2: Glamorous, I should say. That is kind of more fake 708 00:42:36,956 --> 00:42:40,076 Speaker 2: than the doll. I was wearing a wig. I wasn't 709 00:42:40,156 --> 00:42:41,186 Speaker 2: well at the time. I. 710 00:42:43,246 --> 00:42:45,206 Speaker 2: You know, you can't tell because it's taken a little 711 00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:49,036 Speaker 2: further away. But other photos, I was wearing different colored eyes. 712 00:42:49,236 --> 00:42:53,416 Speaker 2: I didn't want to be myself. And it was called Ramona, 713 00:42:53,456 --> 00:42:57,536 Speaker 2: you know. So that's interesting to me. 714 00:42:58,156 --> 00:43:00,006 Speaker 1: Like as inhibiting a different person? 715 00:43:01,226 --> 00:43:03,766 Speaker 2: Not that I was doing it like consciously like a 716 00:43:03,846 --> 00:43:07,086 Speaker 2: Bowie kind of thing. But I just, I did it 717 00:43:07,166 --> 00:43:08,786 Speaker 2: and I look back on it and I'm like, that's 718 00:43:08,846 --> 00:43:16,246 Speaker 2: actually so funny because that's not. And I don't know, 719 00:43:16,266 --> 00:43:18,106 Speaker 2: I'm still kind of questioning why I did that. 720 00:43:19,606 --> 00:43:23,146 Speaker 1: Might that be the thespian side of you? You know, 721 00:43:23,166 --> 00:43:24,506 Speaker 1: where you want to take on a character? 722 00:43:25,006 --> 00:43:29,916 Speaker 2: No, I think that was the fearful side. Yeah. And 723 00:43:29,956 --> 00:43:32,676 Speaker 2: the Ramona side, I suppose. Like, that's kind of what 724 00:43:32,696 --> 00:43:36,356 Speaker 2: I fell back on. Like the image that other people have. 725 00:43:37,086 --> 00:43:37,966 Speaker 2: Might want you to be. 726 00:43:38,026 --> 00:43:39,756 Speaker 1: You felt that's what people wanted you to be. 727 00:43:39,766 --> 00:43:39,966 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 728 00:43:39,986 --> 00:43:41,166 Speaker 1: It was just sort of glamorous. 729 00:43:41,306 --> 00:43:43,826 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Green-eyed kind of. 730 00:43:44,106 --> 00:43:44,546 Speaker 1: Siren. 731 00:43:45,806 --> 00:43:48,806 Speaker 2: Quiet girl, you know. Yeah. Yeah. 732 00:43:49,006 --> 00:43:52,936 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I'm reading Kim Gordon's book right now, which 733 00:43:53,296 --> 00:43:56,236 Speaker 1: I'm late to because that came out a while back. 734 00:43:56,256 --> 00:43:57,756 Speaker 2: I'm late to everything, don't worry. 735 00:43:59,226 --> 00:44:01,406 Speaker 1: I'm halfway through now. And she's like, you know, it's 736 00:44:01,466 --> 00:44:03,386 Speaker 1: in the early nineties run, like when goo comes out 737 00:44:03,406 --> 00:44:04,686 Speaker 1: and she has, she's talking about similar things. I mean, 738 00:44:04,706 --> 00:44:07,166 Speaker 1: she just doesn't, she's like trying to find her like 739 00:44:07,186 --> 00:44:09,646 Speaker 1: who I've been trying to be cool this whole time. 740 00:44:09,666 --> 00:44:11,826 Speaker 1: And that means by being cool, that means I'm trying 741 00:44:11,866 --> 00:44:14,986 Speaker 1: to really be a drogenous or relate to the boys, 742 00:44:15,266 --> 00:44:17,356 Speaker 1: you know? And, but also maybe I want to be 743 00:44:17,576 --> 00:44:20,816 Speaker 1: glamorous or cute or whatever, or, or, and what is 744 00:44:21,236 --> 00:44:23,476 Speaker 1: and then if I play into that and then it 745 00:44:23,576 --> 00:44:27,176 Speaker 1: becomes this convoluted it was becoming a convoluted sort of 746 00:44:27,516 --> 00:44:29,856 Speaker 1: debate in her mind for her of like which one 747 00:44:30,456 --> 00:44:33,376 Speaker 1: is giving a win to someone else versus just being 748 00:44:33,416 --> 00:44:34,296 Speaker 1: who I am yeah. 749 00:44:34,176 --> 00:44:36,796 Speaker 2: Yeah that's right that's right and none of them need 750 00:44:36,816 --> 00:44:38,736 Speaker 2: to make that much sense I mean do it if 751 00:44:38,816 --> 00:44:43,676 Speaker 2: you want and you know like again life doesn't make 752 00:44:43,756 --> 00:44:46,256 Speaker 2: sense you don't have to be like you're not a 753 00:44:46,336 --> 00:44:50,066 Speaker 2: written character but you have to like Play out the 754 00:44:50,086 --> 00:44:52,436 Speaker 2: bits for, you know. 755 00:44:53,166 --> 00:44:53,416 Speaker 4: Yeah. 756 00:44:53,736 --> 00:44:56,156 Speaker 2: I mean, I could walk outside and get hit by 757 00:44:56,176 --> 00:44:59,036 Speaker 2: a bus. I would like to kind of, I mean, 758 00:44:59,056 --> 00:45:05,526 Speaker 2: I don't want to, but I'd like to do my life, 759 00:45:05,606 --> 00:45:07,346 Speaker 2: live my life so that if I do get hit 760 00:45:07,366 --> 00:45:12,266 Speaker 2: by that bus, I'll feel like I did the best 761 00:45:12,326 --> 00:45:12,606 Speaker 2: I could. 762 00:45:12,846 --> 00:45:13,086 Speaker 1: Yeah. 763 00:45:13,506 --> 00:45:14,246 Speaker 2: I do my best. 764 00:45:14,326 --> 00:45:18,586 Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you want to play something else from? From 765 00:45:18,606 --> 00:45:18,886 Speaker 1: your album? 766 00:45:18,906 --> 00:45:21,086 Speaker 2: You know what? I would bloody love to. 767 00:45:21,126 --> 00:45:24,926 Speaker 1: Great. So happy to hear that. 768 00:45:27,106 --> 00:45:27,326 Speaker 2: Joke. 769 00:45:46,576 --> 00:45:52,816 Speaker 5: I saw you sing with Paul today And a tear 770 00:45:52,836 --> 00:45:55,816 Speaker 5: rolled down my mother's face. 771 00:45:57,716 --> 00:46:01,796 Speaker 3: I wish I still had childhood grace. 772 00:46:04,056 --> 00:46:16,396 Speaker 5: And that everybody had a good time John, the war 773 00:46:16,476 --> 00:46:23,996 Speaker 5: still isn't over Even. 774 00:46:21,576 --> 00:46:24,776 Speaker 3: Though we want it gone. 775 00:46:26,396 --> 00:46:33,336 Speaker 5: But we've still got the Rolling Stones They're just in 776 00:46:33,376 --> 00:46:40,066 Speaker 5: need of a roll and rhythm. 777 00:46:42,206 --> 00:46:53,656 Speaker 3: John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. 778 00:46:53,896 --> 00:46:56,136 Speaker 5: John, John, Lennon, Lennon. 779 00:46:56,496 --> 00:46:58,316 Speaker 3: John, John, Lennon, Lennon. 780 00:47:18,656 --> 00:47:27,056 Speaker 5: John can you hold me like a baby. 781 00:47:26,296 --> 00:47:35,186 Speaker 2: Cause I don't want to be alone riding on my own. 782 00:47:38,166 --> 00:47:38,866 Speaker 1: Waking up. 783 00:47:40,436 --> 00:47:45,616 Speaker 3: . 784 00:47:47,536 --> 00:47:53,296 Speaker 4: 785 00:47:53,436 --> 00:47:59,036 Speaker 4: 786 00:47:59,256 --> 00:48:03,676 Speaker 4: . 787 00:48:03,356 --> 00:48:31,206 Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose 788 00:48:31,246 --> 00:48:34,106 Speaker 1: with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our 789 00:48:34,166 --> 00:48:37,596 Speaker 1: engineer is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of 790 00:48:37,656 --> 00:48:40,776 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, 791 00:48:40,956 --> 00:48:44,356 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast 792 00:48:44,376 --> 00:48:49,716 Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 793 00:48:48,196 --> 00:48:51,176 Speaker 1: a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. 794 00:48:52,006 --> 00:48:54,186 Speaker 1: And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, 795 00:48:54,206 --> 00:48:56,646 Speaker 1: and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's 796 00:48:56,686 --> 00:48:58,346 Speaker 1: by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.